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RLC_FLA
03-27-2006, 11:19
I was just reading Smiles trail Journal and he mentioned that when he was going to stay at Woods Hole Shelter earlier this month there was a homeless person there who had taken over the shelter. He also mentioned that when he got down to Mtn Crossing, that other hikers had the same experience.

Does anyone know if he's still there? We're going to be hiking the Ga section in a few weeks and we'll have a novice hiker with us, wouldn't want her to have any unplesant experiences. Also, we want to stay at the shelter since it wasn't there when we did our thru in 89. And as smaltzy as it sounds, we had the privilege of meeting Miss Tilly and staying at the Woods Hole Hostel and feel that is some small way we would be honoring Tilly and her husband by staying at this shelter.

Smile
03-27-2006, 14:47
There was a ridgerunner/trailguy (?) named Gizmo (I think!?) that was at Neels Gap in the hostel, and he spoke to several hikers about this, not sure if it was looked into or not, since I am past there in my thru hike.

Someone else had described this homesless guy who would say "oh don't sleep here, go tent down there", with all sorts of excuses to keep people out of the shelter. They thought this might be the same guy, don't know for sure.

Two older seasoned hiker guys I hiked with for a while said several days later that they went there and had an experience with the guy, and moved on - didn't like the feel of it there - I was pretty surprised to hear them say this as they were hiking together....and they still didn't stay.

neo
03-27-2006, 15:02
:D hard to believe home person on trail,ne free hand outs,plus it is out of the way:cool: neo

The Solemates
03-27-2006, 15:31
pardon me if im wrong, but i thought smile was a female

Sly
03-27-2006, 15:33
pardon me if im wrong, but i thought smile was a female

Yes, she is and does an incredibly good job of protecting her real identity!

The Solemates
03-27-2006, 15:36
Yes, she is and does an incredibly good job of protecting her real identity!

guess i just blew it for her then..

RLC_FLA
03-27-2006, 15:49
Smile,

My apologies for ASSuming you were a he instead of a she. :datz

Really enjoy reading your journal. Good luck on the rest of you journey!

Smile
03-27-2006, 16:33
No harm done! Thanks for keeping up with my journal, I'm about healed and ready to roll back on the trail!

khaynie
03-27-2006, 16:48
I ran into a homeless person at Wood's Hole about a year and 1/2 ago. It was just him and his dog and he had the shelter pretty well occupied, i.e. he had his crap everywhere. He wasn't at all friendly and gave me the same song and dance about the shelter not being a good placed to sleep. I wasn't get a good vibe, so I decided to tent on Blood. Perhaps this is the same vagrant?! Oh well, I guess you run into these types of things here and there...

cup
03-27-2006, 16:52
Bums in the woods ?

What did his pack weigh?

joel137
03-27-2006, 17:28
In 96 I ran into a homeless person who had the lost mountain shelter occupied just north of Damascus. He had bloodied feet and some cloths on a line that had blood on them.

Whether to stay or not was a bit of a difficult decision. I ended up staying, but mostly because about 4 other people that I had seen before came into the shelter; so figuring there was safety in numbers and the fact that the guy basically seemed harmless led me to stay.

The bumming of food was a bit annoying and the brass bell wind-up alarm clock he had in the shelter was loud as all get out . . .

khaynie
03-27-2006, 18:18
Bums in the woods ?

What did his pack weigh?

I'd say without his axe, insulated plad shirt(s), blue jeans, dual burning coleman stove, and his extra blankets that it was around 40 lbs.

mrmike48/4000
03-27-2006, 18:38
i met a homeless guy on the trail in 03. his name was j r [the poet]. i met him at mollies ridge and then ran back into him at fontana shelter a week later.:eek: he had just gotten out of the joint..he seemed like a real nice guy:-? ......nitewalker

Skidsteer
03-27-2006, 19:27
I stopped by Wood's Hole on 3/18 briefly while I was getting water. No sign of a homeless person. At any rate, he'll be badly outnumbered for the next month or so.

betic4lyf
03-27-2006, 20:24
just to throw a fork in it, but homeless people aren't homeless by choice. i may be misunderstanding the situation, but unless the guy is abusing it, cut hime some slack..

Hikerhead
03-27-2006, 20:32
The point being made was that this homeless person was trying to make the shelter their own, trying to run everybody else off. He was abusing it.

betic4lyf
03-27-2006, 21:06
ur right, he should move on. but he is still a person,

treehugginwildernman
03-27-2006, 21:34
i stayed in the shelter 3/26 and there were not any homeless people there, but there were a lot of thru-hikers.

saimyoji
03-27-2006, 21:48
just to throw a fork in it, but homeless people aren't homeless by choice. i may be misunderstanding the situation, but unless the guy is abusing it, cut hime some slack..

Well, don't be so hasty. I've lived in some places where many of the homeless people were there by choice. Tired of the demands, pressures, stresses of society, some of these people had left their careers, homes, families because they just couldn't or didn't want to deal with it anymore. BY CHOICE.

Too bad they didn't have access to a low stress decent job and a long trail to walk on in the off time.

bulldog49
03-27-2006, 21:56
just to throw a fork in it, but homeless people aren't homeless by choice. i may be misunderstanding the situation, but unless the guy is abusing it, cut hime some slack..

Actually, most homeless ARE homeless by choice. Granted, many, in fact most, suffer either from mental illness or substance abuse. And, unless they are confined by force, will not accept permanent residencey when made available.

joel137
03-28-2006, 00:13
ur right, he should move on. but he is still a person,

The situation I saw, the guy clearly wasn't moving on, he had made it a temporary home. And one where typical hiker friendliness made it easier to get food over panhandling in town (or maybe was kicked out town by the local constubalary).

The main worry I had was whether or not the fellow was supposed to be on meds or not? If so, it'd be my guess that he wasn't taking them. And I'm not enough of a psychiatrist to feel competent in judging such a situation. I think in general such folk are harmless, but I wouldn't want to stay alone in the shelter with the fellow, it made me a lot more comfortable staying at the shelter, when it basically filled up about 4-6 of us.

The one other situation of a homeless person was a woman at another shelter and she had a tent and was tenting, I wasn't bothered by her staying there as she appeared to be more bothered by the existence of the hikers there than vice-versa. Also, I'd add that with the tent she was actually moving on every day or so anyway.

weary
03-28-2006, 00:21
Actually, most homeless ARE homeless by choice. Granted, many, in fact most, suffer either from mental illness or substance abuse. And, unless they are confined by force, will not accept permanent residencey when made available.
Hmmm? How do you know?

betic4lyf
03-28-2006, 00:28
are you telling me that most homeless people gave up a good job and a nice house, and decided one day, hey i want to be homeless? the vast majority of homeless would rather be part of society, but for reasons of a lack of jobs, social conditions, or drug addiction, can not. people should help themon their feat. this guy who was taking over a shelter was wrong, but not a demon.


also outsiders see a thru-hiker as a smelly person, all dirty or grungy, often in smelly and dirty clothes.he may have seemed unsavory to you, but you seem that way to others. don't judge someone elses condition unless you want someone to judge yours.

neo
03-28-2006, 08:02
:D as long as i have a hammock i will never be homeless:cool: neo

Midway Sam
03-28-2006, 10:12
are you telling me that most homeless people gave up a good job and a nice house, and decided one day, hey i want to be homeless? the vast majority of homeless would rather be part of society, but for reasons of a lack of jobs, social conditions, or drug addiction, can not. people should help themon their feat. this guy who was taking over a shelter was wrong, but not a demon.


also outsiders see a thru-hiker as a smelly person, all dirty or grungy, often in smelly and dirty clothes.he may have seemed unsavory to you, but you seem that way to others. don't judge someone elses condition unless you want someone to judge yours.

I really hope I don't stir anything up, that is not my intent. I merely wish to pass on my own opinion which is based upon personal experience...

I won't debate the numbers, but a good number of homeless are in fact unwilling or uncapable of coping with a "normal" life as society has dictated. I work with the homeless regularly and have gotten to know many quite well. As a matter of fact my closest friends at the moment are the 14 homeless guys I choose to spend my Thursday nights with every week. All 14 of them are either habitual drug users, raging alcoholics, or mentally unstable.

One of the guys one time said "Sam, when you think of living as I do, on the streets eating from dumpsters, you cannot even grasp the concept of doing so on a regular basis. That is how I feel about living inside of four walls and a roof."

Also, the comment regarding mental illness and substance abuse is very true. On the average most mentally stable, non-drug abusing people who go through a period of crisis like a divorce, sudden job loss, long term incarceration, etc. will have a system of support that will keep them off the streets. Of the 40-50 homeless guys I know, 39-49 of them are either drug abusers, alcoholics, or suffer from mental illness.

Finally, I obviously have a soft place in my heart for the homeless and try to lend them help and support however I can as long as it does not enable their problems or addictions. That being said, a homeless person who takes up residence in a shelter along the AT should not be "left alone" but rather reported to the local authorities so they may get the help that they obviously need.

Smile
03-28-2006, 11:17
i.e. he had his crap everywhere. He wasn't at all friendly and gave me the same song and dance about the shelter not being a good placed to sleep. I wasn't get a good vibe, so I decided to tent on Blood. Perhaps this is the same vagrant?!

yes, might be the same guy. Several hikers mentioned this same scenario over the past few years and wondered themselves if it was the same guy. Definately was discouraging people to share the shelter with him. Probably has moved on....many thru hikers coming through right now.

bulldog49
03-28-2006, 11:31
Hmmm? How do you know?


Because I've read numerous first hand accounts of folks who actually work with the homeless, like Midway Sam, who say exactly what he said.

These are troubled folks who need help, but often spurn it when it is offered. They are not what you would consider normal folks who suddenly lose a job and have no means of support and have to take to the streets because of cold heated Republicans, as I'm sure you believe Weary.

max patch
03-28-2006, 11:38
Rush told us about the demographics of the homeless years ago.

Fiddler
03-28-2006, 12:14
the vast majority of homeless would rather be part of society, but for reasons of a lack of jobs, social conditions, or drug addiction, can not. .
Have you ever been around homeless people? Not just drive by and see them on the street, but walk among them, talk to them, get to know a few of them? If you will get to know some of them well enough, and they get to know you, so you can have friendly, honest conversations with them, you will be surprised at the reasons most are homeless. During my carreer (36 years law enforcement) I was around them at times. The majority are homeless by choice, for a wide variety of reasons.

Newb
03-28-2006, 12:21
are you telling me that most homeless people gave up a good job and a nice house, and decided one day, hey i want to be homeless? the vast majority of homeless would rather be part of society, but for reasons of a lack of jobs, social conditions, or drug addiction, can not. people should help themon their feat. this guy who was taking over a shelter was wrong, but not a demon.

also outsiders see a thru-hiker as a smelly person, all dirty or grungy, often in smelly and dirty clothes.he may have seemed unsavory to you, but you seem that way to others. don't judge someone elses condition unless you want someone to judge yours.

"vast majority of homeless would rather be part of society" = CHOICE
"lack of jobs"= CHOICE
"social conditions"= CHOICE
"drug addiction"=CHOICE

"don't judge someone elses condition unless you want someone to judge yours"= It's perfectly OK and fitting to make judgements of others. If someone is violent, drug addled, dishonorable, or a host of other factors I can and WILL judge them to be not worth being around. I, in turn, welcome others to make judgements about me and adjust their behavior accordingly. Making judgements of others OK. Don't let the softie apologists get to you. If we don't make judgements how can we possibly run our society?

TOW
03-28-2006, 14:10
neo, you don't know too much about homeless people or that subculture of those who live out there on the trail as i can see....

TOW
03-28-2006, 14:17
Bums in the woods ?

What did his pack weigh?

who said he was a bum????

MOWGLI
03-28-2006, 14:35
I, in turn, welcome others to make judgements about me and adjust their behavior accordingly.

OK, you're ignorant.

I work as a volunteer with homeless folks. The majority that I see are single mothers with children. Many have been abused. It is much more complex than you paint it out to be.

Please come back and post about the homeless when you know what you're talking about.

generoll
03-28-2006, 14:43
I do think that there are some nuances here that are being ignored, perhaps unintentionally. I don't think that most homeless people are homeless by choice, but I do believe that most homeless people are homeless by virtue of choices that they made. Not every homeless person is a helpless victim of an evil society.

TOW
03-28-2006, 18:26
i agree with you generoll...........the way i see it homelessness is a state of mind, not being......

Heater
03-28-2006, 18:40
"vast majority of homeless would rather be part of society" = CHOICE
"lack of jobs"= CHOICE
"social conditions"= CHOICE
"drug addiction"=CHOICE

"don't judge someone elses condition unless you want someone to judge yours"= It's perfectly OK and fitting to make judgements of others. If someone is violent, drug addled, dishonorable, or a host of other factors I can and WILL judge them to be not worth being around. I, in turn, welcome others to make judgements about me and adjust their behavior accordingly. Making judgements of others OK. Don't let the softie apologists get to you. If we don't make judgements how can we possibly run our society?

Being mentally ill is not a CHOICE and makes most, if not all of the above, not a CHOICE but a sypmtom of the illness. Even if they are on meds there is still a stigma attached that makes these things a real barrier to overcome an addition to the struggle dealing with the illness.

So, It's not always about CHOICE.

sdoownek
03-28-2006, 21:01
are you telling me that most homeless people gave up a good job and a nice house, and decided one day, hey i want to be homeless?

Um, well, yes. I'm living proof that situations like that exist.
That's exactly what I did.
It was the most satisfying year of my life.


the vast majority of homeless would rather be part of society, but for reasons of a lack of jobs, social conditions, or drug addiction, can not.

You have no idea what most homeless people want. You may know what your microenviromental experience would lead you to think and believe. Unless you've been there, you don't have a f'ing clue, so come down off of your socialist high horse and grow up. I know of several trampers, squatters, train jumpers, and *real* hobo's that specifically have decided that they don't want to exist in our society.

[QUOTE=betic4lyf]people should help them on their feat. this guy who was taking over a shelter was wrong, but not a demon.

I doubt that was a pun, but it was humorous. In any case, pun or not, you provide further proof that you have no idea what most people want. You ASSUME that homeless people need help. A lot of them don't. A lot of them are happier than those of us that have static places to live.


don't judge someone elses condition unless you want someone to judge yours.

Perhaps you should take your own advice and stop throwing rocks.

sdoownek
03-28-2006, 21:15
OK, you're ignorant.

I work as a volunteer with homeless folks. The majority that I see are single mothers with children. Many have been abused. It is much more complex than you paint it out to be.

Please come back and post about the homeless when you know what you're talking about.


Perhaps you should be homeless for a while and gain some experience in what you claim to know so much about. You work with abuse victims. That's a subsection of homeless people, not the entire group.
Not all homeless people are abused. Not all homeless people are mentally ill. Not all homeless people are stupid.
Think about it---> How many people tell us "Oh, my god, you're going to quit your job and go wander around in the woods for 6 months? Wow, that's crazy."

*** is the difference between being homeless and hiking the AT? They're both a choice that one makes, carries through with, and then moves on with, in whatever way they see fit. Somebody mentioned this earlier in this thread.......

I know I'm repeating myself here, but you're imposing your experience upon the rest of us and insisting that your viewpoint is the only one that's correct.
What's even more egregious is that you're unwilling to accept another viewpoint without understanding that another viewpoint could exist. How can someone in your position, even if it's a volunteer, be so close minded?

Sad, really. My guess is that you're young, idealistic, and not very widely traveled. That's just a guess, though, I might be incorrect. If I'm wrong, you'll be able to tell me how many tables there are at Anchor What?

Pacific Tortuga
03-28-2006, 21:22
[quote=max patch]Rush told us about the demographics of the homeless years ago.



YA! and Rush should know being a mental case on more meds than Elvis (God bless his soul).

workboot
03-28-2006, 21:40
Well who would have thought this thread would descend into a sophistrical game of semantics over why folks are homeless :D :banana . If indeed a homeless person has taken up residence at a AT shelter he or she need to move on and free up the shelter for its intended purpose (ie. sheltering AT hikers) not housing the homeless.

Skidsteer
03-28-2006, 21:46
Well who would have thought this thread would descend into a sophistrical game of semantics over why folks are homeless :D :banana . If indeed a homeless person has taken up residence at a AT shelter he or she need to move on and free up the shelter for its intended purpose (ie. sheltering AT hikers) not housing the homeless.

Oy veh. It's a self-solver! Wood's Hole is likely getting 15-20 thrus/night these days. Strength in numbers and all that jazz.

max patch
03-28-2006, 21:49
=Pacific Tortuga

YA! and Rush should know being a mental case on more meds than Elvis (God bless his soul).

While Rush battled an addiction to pain pills after surgury, his addiction has no comparison to the numerous pills that Elvis ended up being addicted to.

MOWGLI
03-28-2006, 21:58
Sad, really. My guess is that you're young, idealistic, and not very widely traveled. That's just a guess, though, I might be incorrect. If I'm wrong, you'll be able to tell me how many tables there are at Anchor What?

You're right. :rolleyes: I'm actually 12 and I've never actually crossed the County line. ;)

And by the way. I don't work with abuse victims. I volunteer 4 weeks a year to assist homeless folks in Chattanooga, TN.

max patch
03-28-2006, 22:11
Sad, really. My guess is that you're young, idealistic, and not very widely traveled.

Actually, Mowgli is in the "top 10" of knowledgeable posters on this site. And I say that despite the fact that we disagree on a lot of issues.

And after the absolute CRAP you wrote on WF's site last week -- and then when you went on and on and on when it was deleted -- tells me how much credibility to give to your rantings.

sdoownek
03-28-2006, 22:31
Don't comment on issues that you don't fully understand. My rantings on trailplace were a successful attempt to goad Dan into doing something that he's been putting off for 19 years.

Don't watch my hands, look at the pretty woman in the cage....*poof*..... Suffice to say that the entire AT community is better off in the long term for the "....the absolute CRAP...." that I wrote. Topically, it wasn't important and everybody that was involved knew that. It did open communication, which is what I was after. Look back 19 years. If you're as knowledgeable as you think you are, you'll be able to figure it out.

Give it credibility or not, that truly doesn't matter to me. I simply don't care if you like what I have to say or not. Harsh? Sure. Obtuse? Absolutely. It's part of HYOH. If you don't like what I have to say, then move the f#ck on.

Skidsteer
03-28-2006, 22:37
Don't comment on issues that you don't fully understand. My rantings on trailplace were a successful attempt to goad Dan into doing something that he's been putting off for 19 years.

Don't watch my hands, look at the pretty woman in the cage....*poof*..... Suffice to say that the entire AT community is better off in the long term for the "....the absolute CRAP...." that I wrote. Topically, it wasn't important and everybody that was involved knew that. It did open communication, which is what I was after. Look back 19 years. If you're as knowledgeable as you think you are, you'll be able to figure it out.

Give it credibility or not, that truly doesn't matter to me. I simply don't care if you like what I have to say or not. Harsh? Sure. Obtuse? Absolutely. It's part of HYOH. If you don't like what I have to say, then move the f#ck on.

Okay Rasputin. By all means, Hike your Own Hike:D

Big Dawg
03-28-2006, 22:38
Wow, sdoownek/Ken/Dog Tag/DT/Deet???

sdoownek
03-28-2006, 22:46
You're right. :rolleyes: I'm actually 12 and I've never actually crossed the County line. ;)
And by the way. I don't work with abuse victims. I volunteer 4 weeks a year to assist homeless folks in Chattanooga, TN.


*sigh*
OK. You're right. Your 4 weeks a year working with:

single mothers with children. Many have been abused.
gives you more experience with the subject than those of us who have actually made the choice to be homeless.

So, anyhow, how many tables at Anchor What? again?

sdoownek
03-28-2006, 22:50
Wow, sdoownek/Ken/Dog Tag/DT/Deet???

Also feel free to add: Kenny, Woody, Smitty, Orlando, Allan, and Adam.
What's your point?

MOWGLI
03-28-2006, 22:51
Lesson #1. Never argue with a 33 y.o. self professed computer geek who claims to be retired, yet is an expert on homelessness. Living where else? Why, in the homeless capital of America. Fairbanks, AK!

Thanks for the chuckle DEET. :banana

Big Dawg
03-28-2006, 23:00
Also feel free to add: Kenny, Woody, Smitty, Orlando, Allan, and Adam.
What's your point?

"Wow"...... you're comments make me feel sad for you,,, like someone I'd avoid in person.

"sdoownek/Ken/DogTag/DT/Deet"/Kenny/Woody/Smitty/Orlando/Allan/Adam........... damn:confused: I bet each one has a looooong story I would get bored listening to. :eek:

sdoownek
03-28-2006, 23:11
Lesson #1. Never argue with a 33 y.o. self professed computer geek who claims to be retired, yet is an expert on homelessness. Living where else? Why, in the homeless capital of America. Fairbanks, AK!
Thanks for the chuckle DEET. :banana

I don't see why that's funny. You either didn't read, or didn't comprehend my previous posts. I never claimed to be currently homeless. I said I was homeless, by choice, for a year. Reading comprehension, friend. It's a good skill.

Despite the fact that most people never move 50 miles beyond the place they were born, I have. Currently, I'm in Fairbanks. I've also lived in Virginia, Maryland, Texas, Colorado, Montana, North Dakota, Michigan, Maine and Florida. Those are just in US......I could list the cities in S.E.A that I've lived in too....

Again, what's your point?

MOWGLI
03-28-2006, 23:19
Again, what's your point?

My point? Go blow smoke up someone elses tuchas. You have failed miserably to impress me.

sdoownek
03-28-2006, 23:21
"Wow"...... you're comments make me feel sad for you,,, like someone I'd avoid in person.
"sdoownek/Ken/DogTag/DT/Deet"/Kenny/Woody/Smitty/Orlando/Allan/Adam........... damn:confused: I bet each one has a looooong story I would get bored listening to. :eek:

Feel sad for me? Why? I don't understand why I'm being attacked here. I'm simply making a point, doing so and it's not one that you people want to see. That doesn't make me evil. If you don't like what I have to say, then say so, and provide an intellectual reason for holding your opinion. Resorting to the banal answer of "i fell sorry for you" is rather childish.

As for the nicknames, there really aren't any "Stories" behind them.They're all nicknames or trail names.


Adam is my middle name. Allan was picked up in college, when the admissions office chose to my middle name to Allan.

Orlando is a nickname given by my grandfather, who didn't like "Ken" Who knows why old men do what they do....

Woody and Smitty are nicknames for my last name.....

Dog Tag, DT, Deet, have been explained as trail names.

So, Ken, sdoownek, and Kenny are the only ones left. Duh.


If every person that you know calls you the same thing, then you're probably pretty damn boring. We could also add "Token", which was a person misreading a christmas tag....;)

sdoownek
03-28-2006, 23:23
My point? Go blow smoke up someone elses tuchas. You have failed miserably to impress me.

Cool enough with me.

Newb
03-28-2006, 23:33
OK, you're ignorant.

I work as a volunteer with homeless folks. The majority that I see are single mothers with children. Many have been abused. It is much more complex than you paint it out to be.

Please come back and post about the homeless when you know what you're talking about.

There you go. Pregnancy is a choice. It was their choice to get pregnant. Don't apologize for bad behavior..and don't enable it.

Newb
03-28-2006, 23:37
Being mentally ill is not a CHOICE and makes most, if not all of the above, not a CHOICE but a sypmtom of the illness. Even if they are on meds there is still a stigma attached that makes these things a real barrier to overcome an addition to the struggle dealing with the illness.

So, It's not always about CHOICE.

Mental illness was not listed. Of course the mentally ill are not ill by choice, and of course we have a responsibility to help them get their lives and health together. I'm merely talking about the sum total of choices that people make in their live that deliver them to the fates they choose. We are all created equal, what we do with that is up to us.

joel137
03-29-2006, 00:02
Well who would have thought this thread would descend into a sophistrical game of semantics over why folks are homeless :D :banana . If indeed a homeless person has taken up residence at a AT shelter he or she need to move on and free up the shelter for its intended purpose (ie. sheltering AT hikers) not housing the homeless.

Thanks for trying to lift the thread out of the morass that it had descended.

I think there are several interesting questions that the situation poses;

(a) one is the question of whether or not to move on from the shelter when confronted with this situation. I.e. does this person represent a threat or not. As always one must trust their gut instinct here. I've described two instances that I've personally witnessed. Last summer I missed another instance by one shelter, i.e. the homeless person was met half-way between shelters and chose the shelter south of the one I was at for that night.

(b) I feel that Workboot's response is appropriate in a way, after all the intended purpose is not as homeless housing, but while true, it doesn't help in the sense of a response to the situation. I can just see myself arriving at the shelter late in the afternoon and saying "excuse me homeless person, you are not using the shelter for its intended purpose, would you mind moving on to the next shelter". The person is not a hiker and is probably not going to understand or care about hiker etiquette.

( before I get flamed, I'm talking about situations where it is obvious, and if you have experienced the situation, its pretty obvious)

(c) Should there be any official National Park policy regarding such matters. About the only thing I can think of that would be reasonably fair to legitimate hikers (who have strange hiking styles) is something like a time limit to how many overnight stays one can make at a shelter in a row. This is done at many public campgrounds to prevent trailer campers from setting up shop at a single campground for months on end.

Opinions?

Tudor
03-29-2006, 01:17
I must be honest that reading many of these posts ran me through a gamut of emotions, the most prevailing one being that of sadness. I see you all bickering over such things, but many missing the point.

We truly don't own anything that we can't carry with us to the grave, or the afterlife if it exists; yet we want to argue who has a right to stay where along the trail, and whether or not we should be scared to so given a 'homeless' person might be there. These feelings stem from a fear that many of you (including myself) don't have a handle on.

My sadness arises as I notice the state of our minds, given to unjustifiable bickerings. There is a such thing as righteous anger, but that is a very rare feeling, and much of the heated quibbles are not righteous to all, but vindicative to the one sputtering said acid from their tongue.

I've had a comfortable life in a suburb here in Indiana for 23 years now, with supportive friends and family, but it doesn't feel like home to me. In a non-literal sense, I am home-less. This feeling, as I've discovered, is there because I've not had to fully understand what it is like to be alone, to only depend on myself and my meager skills. There is no knowledge without experience, and no experience without shared Pain and Joy of overcoming said Pain.

I love all of you, and I hate to see any of you given to this sad state. I judge not, for I am as you, but that doesn't mean I don't want to see you become whole. Sermon over. :sun

Newb
03-29-2006, 09:35
We truly don't own anything that we can't carry with us to the grave, or the afterlife if it exists;


Not True! At this very moment I have a gang of workmen laboring away building me a small pyramid. When I die I plan to be buried with all my stuff and take it with me to the after-life. I think your statement was unfair to those of us whom adhere to the religion of ancient Egypt.

MOWGLI
03-29-2006, 12:14
My apologies for being so truculent regarding this issue. I have little patience for what I percieve as a lack of compassion.

On a somewhat positive note, I ran into a guy at the post office this morning who was homeless just 6 months ago. He has lost 50 pounds, looks great, and is working full-time. Unfortunately, he left his wife and two kids in the process. As he said, "we're slowly lifting ourselves up." It's nice to see something good happen like that.

Back on topic, in 2000, there was a guy walking from GA into NC named Frank. He wore cotten (blue jeans) and carried his possessions in a bag with a small book bag on his back. Some hikers were afraid of him. He was a pretty nice guy, though somewhat guarded, when you actually talked to him. One hiker (Straightjacket) saved Frank from hypothermia at one shelter after an all day soaking cold rain. I ended up giving him $5 for a camping spot at Rainbow Springs which fried Jensine.

I never saw him after that.

TOW
03-29-2006, 12:19
Perhaps you should be homeless for a while and gain some experience in what you claim to know so much about. You work with abuse victims. That's a subsection of homeless people, not the entire group.
Not all homeless people are abused. Not all homeless people are mentally ill. Not all homeless people are stupid.
Think about it---> How many people tell us "Oh, my god, you're going to quit your job and go wander around in the woods for 6 months? Wow, that's crazy."

*** is the difference between being homeless and hiking the AT? They're both a choice that one makes, carries through with, and then moves on with, in whatever way they see fit. Somebody mentioned this earlier in this thread.......



right on! well said and i agree 100%!

TOW
03-29-2006, 12:21
Well who would have thought this thread would descend into a sophistrical game of semantics over why folks are homeless :D :banana . If indeed a homeless person has taken up residence at a AT shelter he or she need to move on and free up the shelter for its intended purpose (ie. sheltering AT hikers) not housing the homeless.

i agree, be homeless all you want but be respectful and honorable and respect the code of the trail.......

TOW
03-29-2006, 12:29
If every person that you know calls you the same thing, then you're probably pretty damn boring. We could also add "Token", which was a person misreading a christmas tag....;)

even though i agreed with your other posts and undoubtedly will agree again, i think your a bit off track with this statement.....

now what's up with all the nicknames, you ain't one of the multiple personality types are ya????

Newb
03-29-2006, 14:54
I think the core issue here is thus:

At what point should a person's habitation of a Shelter on the trail be reported as an abuse of the system?
The issue has nothing to do with that persons race, religion, mental faculties, conditions of employment or current domicile status.
I don't think anyone should be permitted to simply take up residence in a shelter. Not me, not any of you, not my grandmother.

So, what is the threshhold of tolerance the AT community should permit? What is the recourse when an abuse occurs?

the goat
03-29-2006, 15:27
Back on topic, in 2000, there was a guy walking from GA into NC named Frank. He wore cotten (blue jeans) and carried his possessions in a bag with a small book bag on his back. Some hikers were afraid of him. He was a pretty nice guy, though somewhat guarded, when you actually talked to him. One hiker (Straightjacket) saved Frank from hypothermia at one shelter after an all day soaking cold rain. I ended up giving him $5 for a camping spot at Rainbow Springs which fried Jensine.

I never saw him after that.

yeah, i met a homeless guy on the trail in pa, back in '01. he arrived at the same shelter as me (i forget the shelter name, but is was the small white one that looks kinda like a back yard shed).
i was a bit alarmed when this older guy walked in w/ stuff in grocery bags, an old canvas duffel, and milk jugs full of water. i was mostly alarmed at how quite he was. however, into the night we built a fire and he began to talk and it turned out that he was really quite easy to talk to. his name was mark, and he said the next day he was hitching to az, b/c pa had gotten too damn cold for him. he left before i woke, but sure enough, i ran into him hitching near a road that morning...

the funny thing is: mark was a far better sheltermate, and more courteous than alot of other thruhiker's i've slept in shelters with!

joel137
03-29-2006, 16:52
I think the core issue here is thus:

At what point should a person's habitation of a Shelter on the trail be reported as an abuse of the system?
The issue has nothing to do with that persons race, religion, mental faculties, conditions of employment or current domicile status.
I don't think anyone should be permitted to simply take up residence in a shelter. Not me, not any of you, not my grandmother.

So, what is the threshhold of tolerance the AT community should permit? What is the recourse when an abuse occurs?

Well, said! Opinions?

TOW
03-29-2006, 17:39
I think the core issue here is thus:

At what point should a person's habitation of a Shelter on the trail be reported as an abuse of the system?
The issue has nothing to do with that persons race, religion, mental faculties, conditions of employment or current domicile status.
I don't think anyone should be permitted to simply take up residence in a shelter. Not me, not any of you, not my grandmother.

So, what is the threshhold of tolerance the AT community should permit? What is the recourse when an abuse occurs?

when it's time to move along it's time to move along.......

saimyoji
03-29-2006, 21:59
*sigh*...

...So, anyhow, how many tables at Anchor What? again?

Anchor What? What?

Perhaps this is what you refer to:

http://www.angkorwat.org/

For those not in the know, a wat is a buddhist temple in SE asia, though some countries have different names for the buddhist temples, in Japan they are called tera.

I couldn't tell you how many tables they have there, but I'm guessing the info is on the website somewhere. I'm also guessing you couldn't answer either, since you couldn't even spell the name of the place.

I took a quick look at your post history...why the three year hiatus?

And, oh yeah, why so much hostility? You say HYOH but you slam others for doing so.

saimyoji
03-29-2006, 22:03
Reading comprehension, friend. It's a good skill.

Despite the fact that most people never move 50 miles beyond the place they were born, I have. Currently, I'm in Fairbanks. I've also lived in Virginia, Maryland, Texas, Colorado, Montana, North Dakota, Michigan, Maine and Florida. Those are just in US......I could list the cities in S.E.A that I've lived in too....

Please do. I'd be interested in comparing notes with you. I grew up in Australia, Japan, Thailand, Hong Kong, and had many opportunities to travel around to many places in the region. Looking forward to sharing experiences. :sun

Skidsteer
03-29-2006, 22:09
Anchor What? What?

Perhaps this is what you refer to:

http://www.angkorwat.org/

For those not in the know, a wat is a buddhist temple in SE asia, though some countries have different names for the buddhist temples, in Japan they are called tera.

I couldn't tell you how many tables they have there, but I'm guessing the info is on the website somewhere. I'm also guessing you couldn't answer either, since you couldn't even spell the name of the place.

I took a quick look at your post history...why the three year hiatus?

And, oh yeah, why so much hostility? You say HYOH but you slam others for doing so.

And what the hell, if anything, does it have to do with homelessness?

'Fess up, Sdoownek, I'm curious too.:-?

saimyoji
03-29-2006, 22:21
And what the hell, if anything, does it have to do with homelessness?

'Fess up, Sdoownek, I'm curious too.:-?

Well, Ken Woods (his handle backwards) may or may not be implying this, but there are huge populations of homeless people in this region, many of whom are homeless by choice, many of whom are even arranged in "unions" organised by crime syndicates that rake in big bucks by using the homeless as panhandlers, beggars, etc. They take a large cut, and take care of the homeless to some degree.

For example: homeless lepers in Thailand are organized into lots that are strategically positioned around the city. THey are dropped off in the morning, sit and beg on the street, and are collected at night and taken to a shelter. They get next to nothing of the money they collect, but get a meal and a roof in exchange. The crime syndicates make a killing, the lepers get the basics.

Not sure if Ken Woods was aware of this though.

sdoownek
03-29-2006, 23:45
Anchor What? What? Perhaps this is what you refer to:
http://www.angkorwat.org/

Nope. Not at all, actually.


I couldn't tell you how many tables they have there, but I'm guessing the info is on the website somewhere. I'm also guessing you couldn't answer either, since you couldn't even spell the name of the place.

This is what happens when we assume to know more than others.


I took a quick look at your post history...why the three year hiatus?

Mountaineering, and kayaking, mostly. A stint in prison, too.


And, oh yeah, why so much hostility? You say HYOH but you slam others for doing so.

No, I don't. What I do is force people to back up their opinions. That's quite different.

Oh, and by the way? "Anchor What?" is a bar in Angkor. There are three tables.

sdoownek
03-29-2006, 23:48
Please do. I'd be interested in comparing notes with you. I grew up in Australia, Japan, Thailand, Hong Kong, and had many opportunities to travel around to many places in the region. Looking forward to sharing experiences. :sun

But, wait, you've never heard of Anchor What?
Next, you're going to tell me that I don't know how to get to Khao San Road from the airport.

sdoownek
03-29-2006, 23:52
Well, Ken Woods (his handle backwards)

Wow, aren't you a f*ucking detective of the century!


may or may not be implying this, but there are huge populations of homeless people in this region, many of whom are homeless by choice, many of whom are even arranged in "unions" organised by crime syndicates that rake in big bucks by using the homeless as panhandlers, beggars, etc. They take a large cut, and take care of the homeless to some degree.

And able to read wikipedia, too! Amazing. What else did you come up with as you searched the internet?


Not sure if Ken Woods was aware of this though.

Because, as we all know, if I can't even spell Anchor What?, then what do I know!?

Newb
03-30-2006, 09:02
I pray the death of this thread.

RLC_FLA
03-30-2006, 10:11
When I started this thread, all I wanted to know was "Is the guy still there". I didn't really want to or care to get into the socio-political aspects of homlessness.

Let it die! :rolleyes:

weary
03-30-2006, 10:20
When I started this thread, all I wanted to know was "Is the guy still there". I didn't really want to or care to get into the socio-political aspects of homlessness. Let it die! :rolleyes:
I do tend to worry a bit about non hikers at shelters. All most all crimes along the trail that have been solved have involved non hikers -- be they thefts, vandalism or violence.

However, the only such person I've actually met (she claimed to be the illegally deposed Queen of England) brewed me a cup of tea and seemed pretty harmless.

Weary

otterman
03-30-2006, 10:23
When I started this thread, all I wanted to know was "Is the guy still there". I didn't really want to or care to get into the socio-political aspects of homlessness.

Let it die! :rolleyes:

Welcome to Whitblaze! One of the few places where a discussion of stoves can turn into a discussion of global warming.:datz

MOWGLI
03-30-2006, 10:27
Welcome to Whitblaze! One of the few places where a discussion of stoves can turn into a discussion of global warming.:datz


Speaking of global warming, have you seen the cover of Time Magazine this week? ;)

Dances with Mice
03-30-2006, 10:33
Speaking of global warming, have you seen the cover of Time Magazine this week? ;)No! Did it have a stove on it?

MOWGLI
03-30-2006, 10:41
No! Did it have a stove on it?

Of couse not! Staying on topic is no fun.

Midway Sam
03-30-2006, 10:41
Welcome to Whitblaze! One of the few places where a discussion of stoves can turn into a discussion of global warming.:datz

I literally laughed out loud at work and drew some glances. :rolleyes:

ed bell
03-30-2006, 10:48
I think the core issue here is thus:

At what point should a person's habitation of a Shelter on the trail be reported as an abuse of the system?


So, what is the threshhold of tolerance the AT community should permit? What is the recourse when an abuse occurs?
If I'm not mistaken, you can occupy a campsite for 2 weeks in a National Forest until you are required to move at least one mile away from your previous camp. I'm unsure if shelters fall under a different rule as far as NF's go.:sun

otterman
03-30-2006, 13:00
No! Did it have a stove on it?

No, but there was a picture of this homeless guy contributing to global warming. Word has it he is staying at Wood's Hole Shelter. Full circle?:banana

MOWGLI
03-30-2006, 13:13
No, but there was a picture of this homeless guy contributing to global warming. Word has it he is staying at Wood's Hole Shelter. Full circle?:banana

If he was breaking wind, then he was contributing to global warming. I hear that because of how methane contributes to global warming that farting will soon be made illegal.

That could be the end of thru hiking. :eek:

sdoownek
03-30-2006, 13:19
If he was breaking wind, then he was contributing to global warming. I hear that because of how methane contributes to global warming that farting will soon be made illegal.
That could be the end of thru hiking. :eek:

According to Mythbusters, flatulence is composed of "....mostly nitrogen, oxygen, and a little bit of argon -- but there was also some methane, carbon dioxide (CO2), the smelly bits: hydrogen sulfide and methyl mercaptan...."

I don't know what kind of farts Adam had that day, but I've been around some with exactly the opposite chemical breakdown. They always seem to be in a tent you're sharing with another person.

otterman
03-30-2006, 14:00
If he was breaking wind, then he was contributing to global warming. I hear that because of how methane contributes to global warming that farting will soon be made illegal.

That could be the end of thru hiking. :eek:

Maybe we should wait for our esteemed legislators to pass this law and then we can just have the homeless guy arrested and removed from the shelter. This thread worked out after all. Whiteblaze can solve any problem!

Pirate
03-30-2006, 17:44
It wasn't me.

saimyoji
03-30-2006, 18:51
Wow, aren't you a f*ucking detective of the century!



And able to read wikipedia, too! Amazing. What else did you come up with as you searched the internet?



Because, as we all know, if I can't even spell Anchor What?, then what do I know!?

You accuse me (and rightly so, I admit with appolloggy-forgot how to speell it) of making assumptions about you, you then go and make some about me. Let's just end the hypocrisy, huh?

I asked you in good faith to share some of your experiences from Asia. I don't need wikipedia as I grew up in Bangkok. I would drop some names of places that I used to hang out in, but you'd only accuse me of finding them on the internet.

I will mention that my two favorite watering holes were Goldfingers in PP and Haus Munchen on soi 15. Of course, that was when I was a little older.

There is such a thing as tact (I often forget this), and that just because you can say something, doesn't necessarily mean you should (here I reference the "neo is an idiot...." thread.

sdoownek
03-30-2006, 21:45
just because you can say something, doesn't necessarily mean you should (here I reference the "neo is an idiot...." thread.


I, obviously, don't agree.

saimyoji
03-30-2006, 21:58
I, obviously, don't agree.

On this point I can agree to disagree. Your post to dixie was a little strong and will probably elicit a strong response.

What I can't figure out is how did you go from being such a high-powered corporate bigwig to enlightened outdoorsy tough guy to jail to homeless (or vice versa) to recluse in AK to "internegator." You shared some details of your life, care to be a little more specific? What were you in for?

rickb
03-30-2006, 22:09
WHat's it matter? He can spell.

Skidsteer
03-30-2006, 22:15
WHat's it matter? He can spell.

:D ...He can spell....and think....and write. It's the feeling part he's stumbling on.

Dances with Mice
03-30-2006, 22:19
It wasn't me.Wrong shelter?

sdoownek
03-30-2006, 22:23
On this point I can agree to disagree. Your post to dixie was a little strong and will probably elicit a strong response.

I hope that it does, but hope that it is based in logic rather an emotion. We'll see.


What I can't figure out is how did you go from being such a high-powered corporate bigwig to enlightened outdoorsy tough guy to jail to homeless (or vice versa) to recluse in AK to "internegator." You shared some details of your life, care to be a little more specific? What were you in for?

High School
Travel
AT thru
Travel
College
Geeky job
AT thru
CTO of a web hosting firm.
Homeless, by choice.
Recluse.
Travel.
Recluse.
Prison.
Recluse.

I was in for murder.

Skidsteer
03-30-2006, 22:34
I was in for murder.

Character assassination?:D

rickb
03-30-2006, 22:38
Defenestration.

Waldo.

sdoownek
03-30-2006, 22:48
Another pun! You people are hilarous!
Actually, it's funny and somewhat fitting that you say that, as it was first used by political dissidents to invoke change.

Heater
03-30-2006, 23:04
It wasn't me.

One good thing about dogs in shelters. You can blame the farts on them.:cool:

Pacific Tortuga
03-30-2006, 23:08
Is the homeless person sill there? Has he found shelter from the storm or have we thru-hikers given him the boot? What was his name and where will he go? Do we care? His life has a story as do all of ours. I hope he will be able to share his...........and move on............as we all must do a little richer for meeting him. 78% of all Americans are one or two paychecks away from being homeless so many decide to hike a long distance route to clear their thought and get back to the right direction for each of use.Be kind, the odds say it may be one of us someday.

saimyoji
03-30-2006, 23:15
I hope that it does, but hope that it is based in logic rather an emotion. We'll see.



High School
Travel
AT thru
Travel
College
Geeky job
AT thru
CTO of a web hosting firm.
Homeless, by choice.
Recluse.
Travel.
Recluse.
Prison.
Recluse.

I was in for murder.

Well, that is quite a list, though lacking in dates/locations. If you prefer privacy I can respect that. What I was hoping you would offer were places: ie. You mentioned koa san rd in BKK in a previous post. You and I clearly share some stomping grounds, might be fun/interesting to compare perspectives (I was quite the bohemian in those daze). Spent many a nite in soi cowboy, PP, Pataya, Hua Hin (though I prefered the bars in Cha'am)....

A murder charge doesn't necessarily mean you are a bad person. As I can think of a few people that ought to die, a conveniently expedited vehicle of death would be murder, though one I would not choose this.

Care to elaborate? or at least respond in more detail?

saimyoji
03-30-2006, 23:18
About you time in SEA, not about your crimes.

AirMonk
04-14-2006, 01:32
My wife and I did the Byron Reese/Freeman/AT over Blood loop this past weekend (4/9/2006). After making it to Bird Gap, we went down to the Wood's Hole shelter and had lunch and I didn't see any sign of any homeless person. In fact...the only sign of anyone there recently at all was an unburned white paper bag in the fire pit.

Newb
04-14-2006, 12:35
. 78% of all Americans are one or two paychecks away from being homeless so many decide to hike a long distance route to clear their thought and get back to the right direction for each of use.Be kind, the odds say it may be one of us someday.

I don't think so. That is a squirrely statistic and I'd like to see your empirical evidence to back it up. A statement like that does not reflect intangible factors such as character and human desire.
Personally, I'm not wealthy, If you were to put me out of work I wouldn't be homeless in two weeks. I'd adjust and make the proper arrangements to live with whatever dignity I could afford. I'd definitely find more work. But, like I said in an earlier post, it's all about decisions we make in our life.
....unless of course a person's crazy or disabled..blah blah blah...

Pacific Tortuga
04-14-2006, 13:29
I don't think so. That is a squirrely statistic and I'd like to see your empirical evidence to back it up. A statement like that does not reflect intangible factors such as character and human desire.
Personally, I'm not wealthy, If you were to put me out of work I wouldn't be homeless in two weeks. I'd adjust and make the proper arrangements to live with whatever dignity I could afford. I'd definitely find more work. But, like I said in an earlier post, it's all about decisions we make in our life.
....unless of course a person's crazy or disabled..blah blah blah...


You are right I can not back it up nor should I have used the term "we thru-hikers" like I have done it. I'm sorry and I do believe it is all about integrity at every level in life. Sometimes I can not believe what I wrote .Thank you for calling it out.

oldfivetango
04-15-2006, 11:25
"vast majority of homeless would rather be part of society" = CHOICE
"lack of jobs"= CHOICE
"social conditions"= CHOICE
"drug addiction"=CHOICE

"don't judge someone elses condition unless you want someone to judge yours"= It's perfectly OK and fitting to make judgements of others. If someone is violent, drug addled, dishonorable, or a host of other factors I can and WILL judge them to be not worth being around. I, in turn, welcome others to make judgements about me and adjust their behavior accordingly. Making judgements of others OK. Don't let the softie apologists get to you. If we don't make judgements how can we possibly run our society?

Right on Brother! This country is run AMOK with social and welfare programs!Living out of the dumpster and sleeping on a grate is their CHOICE.The reason we have the illegal immigration problem that we do is
because people in this country have decided they are too good to work for a living.I say we need to hospitalize the insane ones and let the druggies and alkies root hawg or die!
OFT

KirkMcquest
04-15-2006, 11:39
...... people in this country have decided they are too good to work for a living. BLAH,BLAH,BLAH
OFT

Completely ridiculous. Americans work more hours, have less vacation time, and are under more work related stress than just about any other group. Our obsession with work is seen as a sickness to other, more evolved cultures. Maybe only the Japs work more than us and they can always committ Hary-Cary. We only get the occasional thru-hike.:eek:

solace
04-15-2006, 11:43
This gets to be a problem @ different times and in different places on the AT. The gentleman your reffereing to came from TN the 2nd week of March this year. I haven't seen him since i left the section last month, but talked with GIZMO (5th yr ridgerunner for that section) @ it, and Winton @ Neels Gap as well... Homeless folks will do this, and the best thing is to just report it ASAP to the Ridgerunner, if the Rangers have to come in, so be it... but its always best to use some sort of caution.. you never know!?! Usually however, these folks are harmless.. just VERY homeless... I'll usually offer food, but never $$$ . . .

oldfivetango
04-15-2006, 13:10
Completely ridiculous. Americans work more hours, have less vacation time, and are under more work related stress than just about any other group. Our obsession with work is seen as a sickness to other, more evolved cultures. Maybe only the Japs work more than us and they can always committ Hary-Cary. We only get the occasional thru-hike.:eek:

Try this Kirkie-
Start a business that requires alot of common laborers and see how many "traditional Americans" you get to apply.We have a HUGE segment of
American society that is about as worthless as the bears that frequent garbage heaps.The twelve million illegals we have in this country are doing the "real work" that the rest of the population won't touch.Have a nice day.
OFT

weary
04-15-2006, 13:27
Try this Kirkie-
Start a business that requires alot of common laborers and see how many "traditional Americans" you get to apply.We have a HUGE segment of
American society that is about as worthless as the bears that frequent garbage heaps.The twelve million illegals we have in this country are doing the "real work" that the rest of the population won't touch.Have a nice day.
OFT
We have illegal migration for many reasons. Chief among them is that factory farms, pulp and paper companies, some meat processing factories, and other industries figure they can make more money hiring illegals for minimum wages than Americans for prevailing wages.

Contributing has been the failure of governments for the past 20 years to enforce the law passed during the last immigration "crisis" that makes it illegal for people to hire undocumented workers.

Weary

solace
04-15-2006, 14:24
OMG, let's not even get started on this . . . YES, there are "lazy" Americans.. BUT every COUNTRY has it's fair share! As far as ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS . . . the USA is HEAVEN compared to thier countries... you want to enter the USA?? Fine.. BUT DO IT THE RIGHT WAY!!! All of us pay for thier children to be born here, and once born.. THEIR PARENTS WELFARE! Even when they are "escorted" out of the USA, it's with $50 of our tax money!!! BS!!! I agree, immigrants for the majority work VERY HARD, YES! But apply for a green card / visa at least! I don't enjoy working harder each year as taxes are raised to pay for "VISITORS"!

oldfivetango
04-16-2006, 12:39
Ok all you liberal know it all geniuses out there.Who used to do the common labor in this country before all the illegals got here?Go figure a while and you might deduce it was the ones you are now funding with your taxes to sit on their backsides watching tv all day.And,no, I do not support illegal immigration.Have a nice day.
OFT

Newb
04-17-2006, 07:35
It's time for the "End of the thread" prayer..

Dear Lord:

Please end this thread or I think I'll explode.

Amen.

MOWGLI
04-17-2006, 07:49
Ok all you liberal know it all geniuses out there.Who used to do the common labor in this country before all the illegals got here? Go figure a while and you might deduce it was the ones you are now funding with your taxes to sit on their backsides watching tv all day. And,no, I do not support illegal immigration.Have a nice day.
OFT

I thought Welfare was reformed? Newt Gingrich (and all the AM radio pundits) claim the Republican Congress did it, and that Clinton took credit for their accomplishment.

Are you now telling us that it wasn't reformed? I'll bet that was Clinton's fault, right? :rolleyes:

oldfivetango
04-17-2006, 08:13
My apologies for subverting this thread to all the sane and realistic people who read and post in here.My only point and interest is in fact-not fault.
Anyone who will not acknowledge that we have millions of illegal people in this country doing the jobs that legal citizens now consider themselves too good to do is in fact nothing but a fool.Have a nice day.
OFT

bfitz
04-17-2006, 10:54
Anyone who will not acknowledge that we have millions of illegal people in this country doing the jobs that legal citizens now consider themselves too good to do is in fact nothing but a fool.Have a nice day.
OFT
They aren't doing jobs people consider themselves too good to do, they are being exploited by employers who pay them too little to do jobs other Americans don't want to do for that money. They don't get the benefits employers must give to their legal employees and don't have a legal leg to stand on when they get screwed. They are the perfect low wage employees, just like the immigrants in "The Jungle" like was being talked about recently on another thread. Setting up a guest worker program of some kind is the only way to protect them, and increasing penalties to employers who disobey the law is the obvious way to stem the flood, because they come for the jobs. Then we work hard with mexico to fix their economy so that we can have a more open border like we do with Canada. It's so obvious, that watching politicians argue about it as if it wasn't is insulting. Not a complex issue.

swede
04-17-2006, 17:04
Immigration policy may be made by a government, but immigration reality is made by the market. By some estimates the US has between 11 and 18 million illegals, hispanics mostly, but a good selection of east asians, eastern europeans, mid and south asians, etc. We simply do not have the enforcement resources to round up these individuals. Our economy is boosted by this labor pool, as opposed to the zenophobic Japanese, who are not replacing themselves. Like it or not, they're here to stay, I just hope we can come up with a coherant guest worker program. As long as opportunity, however modest, is available people will seek it. Blame it on the Chinese; after jobs followed NAFTA south, the asians took them during siesta!;)

Nightwalker
04-22-2007, 21:39
OK, you're ignorant.

I work as a volunteer with homeless folks. The majority that I see are single mothers with children. Many have been abused. It is much more complex than you paint it out to be.

Please come back and post about the homeless when you know what you're talking about.

You were a lot nicer than I wanted to be! Amazingly, I've learned how to--occasionally--not go off on folks what ticks me off!

Progress? Maybe. More likely that I'm just getting better at remembering to take my meds every day. :)

I can tell you that I'd love to be able to be a part of the "real" world, and to be a working, productive member of society. Some folks would just say that it must just be my CHOICE to be all f'd up in the head. :sun

Whateva, eh?

Nightwalker
04-22-2007, 21:46
Lesson #1. Never argue with a 33 y.o. self professed computer geek who claims to be retired, yet is an expert on homelessness. Living where else? Why, in the homeless capital of America. Fairbanks, AK!

Thanks for the chuckle DEET. :banana

Don't forget child-abuse proponent who lies about having thru-hiked.

Photofanatic
04-23-2007, 08:34
I just read this thread and find it amazing how diverse people are. I do hope that someday others will read back and find this about me because someday there will be hikers that come across me when I am homeless.
1. I want to be homeless. (homefree that is. I want to be free of all the bonds that come with being a traditional member of this culture that we call society) I have been working toward being able to walk away with only my pack and some things in a storage unit somewhere usa.
2. I have a family and children and of course I want to visit with them at their homes and keep in touch with them but they will be living their own lives and have their own adult decisions to make so they will only need me for a little advice here and there.
3. I will still have my financial plan working for me. By completely liqidating my money will continue to draw interest in a money market account. I can live off the interest and the rest will provide for me when I won't be able to hike another step. (I truely hope that day never comes.) I hope to grow old on a trail until one cold winter night as I watch the stars through a crystal clear ski while I am warmly cocooned in my sleeping bag I drift off into a permanent sleep.
4. But until then I want to hike, meet more wonderful people and listen to their stories of adventure, life and the wonderful people they have met along their way. I want to wake to beautiful sunrises and watch the sun drop against the horizon, I want to feel the pain of hunger and thirst along with the discomforts of too much rain and too much sun along with the bountiful days of plenty of food and water taken under a beautiful shade tree in front of a backdrop of mountains. I love the awsome surprises that trial life offers me. No diamond compares to rounding a bend in the trail to find a family of bears. Mama poking around a fallen tree for grubs and startled baby bears running for the nearest tree.
And if at times I have a bad day like everyone else does on occasion I hope that I don't get a reputation for being a crazy homeless person when in fact I by choice made plans to be home free for the benifit of me rather than to annoy anyone else.

EWS
04-23-2007, 09:32
L. Wolfe there is a significant difference being on a permanant or long term vacation, where you are able to provide for you own basic needs, without having to scrounge and depend on the kindness of others, than being "homeless". I admire what you plan on doing and did that for a year myself, though it should have lasted much longer, but I bought a bought a sailboat, so then I had home and little money left. Now I'm back at work again, and am ignoring the calls of the seas and freedom, till my bank account is once again ripe.

Gray Blazer
04-23-2007, 09:35
I just read this thread and find it amazing how diverse people are. I do hope that someday others will read back and find this about me because someday there will be hikers that come across me when I am homeless.
1. I want to be homeless. (homefree that is. I want to be free of all the bonds that come with being a traditional member of this culture that we call society)

some things in a storage unit somewhere usa.
2. I have a family and children and of course I want to visit with them at their homes and keep in touch with them
3. I will still have my financial plan working for me. By completely liqidating my money will continue to draw interest in a money market account. I can live off the interest and the rest will provide for me

Still got the ties there. Good thing a business man will have a storage area for you. Communications businesses and transportation capitalists will help you keep in touch with that family of yours. Can't have a money market account without some kind of capitalist society. Who's gonna build and maintain those trails you want to hike on? Do you get a monthly check? The homeless guys here get that monthly check. Seriously, go out and have fun. If it were me I'd be counting my blessings (and thanking my fellow members of society that made it possible) that I could get out there like that.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
04-23-2007, 09:48
We're retired. The male dino likes having a home - the female dino not so much. The female dino could easily go 'homeless' (as in without a permanent home base) if the male dino should hike skyward before she does.

Photofanatic
04-23-2007, 10:31
Oh, don't get me wrong here. Society is great for those that thrive in their work and the lifestyles they have built for themselves. I simply don't thrive in the traditional setting.
I just suck at being in what most people consider a traditional lifestyle. I am a disabled veteran with a knee replacement and am only able to use the fingers on my right hand the arm and wrist are pretty much useless so I have always been self employed to accomodate my familys financial needs. Since I have sold my businesses planning on getting a regular job where someone else can keep the books etc... I hate bookkeeping. I am nearly two years later finding that nobody will hire me, probably because of my limitations. Employers want people that can do the job, not part of the job. I know this because I have been an employer nearly my entire adult life.
My children have thier own lives and though I know they love me they are busy and I have loads of time on my hands. All I have to do is keep myself warm, dry and fed. There isn't any challenge to doing that in my home, furthermore it is boring looking out the windows or tending to a lawn. I am 44 and without hiking my life would be equal to those who are living in a retirement villa.
I am basically considered financially secure. That is as long as our banking system holds out. Without that nobody is secure.
I guess what I am saying is that I want to let go of my material ties. Not the ties of society. If I don't have a home I don't have to monitor it, or cut the grass or have utilites etc. Therefore I would be free to hike on, permanently. Right now, If I weren't waiting on a telephone call then I would be hiking. I do so nearly everyday just because I would rather be doing that than anything else and there is a small trail system with a trail head 20 or so feet out my backdoor. My pack is always packed and ready to go. Sometimes I have to go to the store for more food (resupply) so there is really nothing different about my life here at home than on a long trail. Except, that I am inconveniently tied to material goods of my home, utilities and lawnmower.
Oh, the other thing is that I have a condition, post traumatic stress disorder, a heart condition and hypertension (high blood pressure). During my AT hike I was able to wean myself off of all of my medications (except blood pressure meds) and have a healthy life where I felt safe. I didn't have any anxiety, night terrors or even good dreams, I slept most peacfully and looked forward to everyday. Everyone should have that. For me though hiking the AT has been the only time I have had that since 1985.

So, back to the thread. Being homeless (home free that is) In my case, when I am. And if I have had a bad day and am a bit cranky as we all do get on occasion even on the AT and other long trails, I hope that people don't come across me and assume that I am a crazy homeless person. I would hope they would ask me if I am a crazy homeless person, and if I am living so by any means other than my choice.
I would of course be hiking slower than most because I wouldn't have the time constraints, and would probably take more zero days than most and just hang out among the trees, or blades of grass, so some may assume that I have taken up homesteading on the AT when in fact I would be taking up homesteading anywhere for a day or so.
And as for the storage unit I am only talking about something the size of a closet for my family albums and such paraphanalia that I might want to look upon again someday if by chance I become a soul in a retirement villa living out my last days.

Photofanatic
04-23-2007, 10:39
We're retired. The male dino likes having a home - the female dino not so much. The female dino could easily go 'homeless' (as in without a permanent home base) if the male dino should hike skyward before she does.
Female Dino, I am female too so if I come across another home free female on a long trail I will not assume that it is you. I will of course ask. hahaha and I do hope to see you out there sometime.

Gray Blazer
04-23-2007, 10:55
Not trying to rain on your parade. Just being me. Actually sounds like a good thing. Good luck to you.

T-BACK
04-23-2007, 19:48
I am a disabled veteran with a knee replacement and am only able to use the fingers....


As a disabled vet, I think that you should be entitled to do whatever you wish in light of what you have sacrificed. I am an ex-grunt and I also find sleeping in the outdoors the most peaceful rest of all. All the night terrors just fade away. God bless you and your endeavors. Thank you for your service and sacrifice!

Brian
T-BACK

Gray Blazer
04-23-2007, 19:55
I am a disabled veteran with a knee replacement and am only able to use the fingers....


As a disabled vet, I think that you should be entitled to do whatever you wish in light of what you have sacrificed. I am an ex-grunt and I also find sleeping in the outdoors the most peaceful rest of all. All the night terrors just fade away. God bless you and your endeavors. Thank you for your service and sacrifice!

Brian
T-BACK
Ditto and Amen!:sun

weary
04-23-2007, 21:54
Just keep in mind you home free folks that the trail did not emerge like some ancient greek folks, from someone tossing stones over their heads. It is the creation of many, many thousands of people, lobbying congress, building trails, maintaining trails, buying land to buffer trails.

A couple of hundred people last year in Maine donated 25,000 hours volunteering to make this trail possible. Additional thousands contributed up and down the 2,275 miles and 14 states

All I'm suggesting is that at odd moments while living free on the trail, that you occasionally ponder those that make it possible and from time to time contribute a bit towards continuing to make it possible.

Weary
www.matlt.org

The Weasel
04-23-2007, 23:52
Try this Kirkie-
Start a business that requires alot of common laborers and see how many "traditional Americans" you get to apply.We have a HUGE segment of
American society that is about as worthless as the bears that frequent garbage heaps.The twelve million illegals we have in this country are doing the "real work" that the rest of the population won't touch.Have a nice day.
OFT

Just who is this "worthless" segment of America you're referring to. Welfare rolls are down, with major work requirements. Tell me, pray, who are these "worthless" people? Or are you just spouting "facts" that you have no idea are accurate?

The Weasel

bfitz
04-24-2007, 01:17
There are always gonna be a few worthless people, but in fact America is maybe the most productive per capita country in the world. We rock! As far as misfits finding niches, we also have the most available in that department too (witness the members of this website...). Most chronically homeless people are damaged, mentally ill, disabled or drug addicted or all of the above. Voluntarily living a hobo lifestyle isn't quite the same. Just cuz you hop trains and sleep outside doesn't mean you don't hustle or are a drain on society. Our materialistic culture is a bit paranoid of these types of people and automatically don't trust them and assume the worst, because they can't imagine not being materialistic. It doesn't compute.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
04-24-2007, 04:30
:eek: Can I get a reprieve from being considered worthless? I've already done my time in the workforce and am retired. If I chose to go 'without a home base', I wouldn't be living in a single location on the trail, but would be traveling around - and not necessarily always on any hiking trail - I have lots of great-grandkids that need spoiling :D.

If I wanted to live at a single location, that would become a home base and defeat the whole purpose. YMMV

Photofanatic
04-24-2007, 06:14
Just keep in mind you home free folks that the trail did not emerge like some ancient greek folks, from someone tossing stones over their heads. It is the creation of many, many thousands of people, lobbying congress, building trails, maintaining trails, buying land to buffer trails.

A couple of hundred people last year in Maine donated 25,000 hours volunteering to make this trail possible. Additional thousands contributed up and down the 2,275 miles and 14 states

All I'm suggesting is that at odd moments while living free on the trail, that you occasionally ponder those that make it possible and from time to time contribute a bit towards continuing to make it possible.

Weary
www.matlt.org (http://www.matlt.org)

I don't want to create an arguement but perhaps by virtue of all hikers hiking any trail there would be no need to maintain any trail and I as well as many others do appreciate all of the man hours and the sacrifices that all who have contributed have made.
I also appreciate all the the manhours that I and other hikers have made during AT thru hikes, section hikes, even local trail and metro parks many souls have put a hand into making a particular trail what it is. I think of those things as I am sure others do everytime we pick up garbage that has been absent mindedly left behind and add the weight to our packs until the next appropriate garbage can comes along. I think of those things and appreciate that I only have to cut back an occasional twig or briar that has overgrown or perhaps cutting back a little here and there to make a passable area to go around a fallen tree and I for one am grateful that it is just a little here and there rather than the miles of it that the local volunteers have done.
I know what has been put into trails because I have put the same kind manhours in my business forever.
Short version is that I have been in the horse industry mostly my whole life, I've had trail horses, horse and hiking trails on my ranch. The soil is thin here and has to be managed with the utmost care because once it has erroded it is gone and pretty hard to replace on the hillsides. I have put the man hours into going to school and learning to be a good steward of the land and spent every spring day cutting back mile after mile of multiflora rose that tends to grow faster than I can keep it cut back.
So I and others do know and appreciate what has been put into these trails. Perhaps that is why some of us want to be there, just to appreciate it all.

Toolshed
04-24-2007, 07:05
OK, you're ignorant.

I work as a volunteer with homeless folks. The majority that I see are single mothers with children. Many have been abused. It is much more complex than you paint it out to be.

Please come back and post about the homeless when you know what you're talking about.

Late to this thread, but since it is resurrected.
Mogli, I agree it is complex, but it all starts with free will and bad choices. And there probably are other circumstnaces which further aggravate teh situation, but isn't it the specific choices they made what got them into your 4 week window?

Weak women marrying weak men = Choice
Weak Women allowing weak men to abuse them = Choice.
Weak Woman having Kids (Perhaps hoping it will change things) = Choice
Weak Women allowing Weak men to continue to abuse them = Choice.
Weak Woman stayign in abusive relationships because they are scared, or it is all they know = Choice.

People do have the power to make choices with their lives. Many may choose to blame other circumstances for their misfortunes. Others do something about it.

(BFitz - Thanks for the "...=Choice" format, which I shamelessly Plundered) :D

Marta
04-24-2007, 07:46
Weak women marrying weak men = Choice
Weak Women allowing weak men to abuse them = Choice.
Weak Woman having Kids (Perhaps hoping it will change things) = Choice
Weak Women allowing Weak men to continue to abuse them = Choice.
Weak Woman stayign in abusive relationships because they are scared, or it is all they know = Choice.


It's all the women's fault. Of course! The men have no responsibility in this.

Seriously, so there are people who make bad choices. Always have been, always will be. Some people learn from their mistakes; others repeat them. The poor in Jesus' time were likely making bad choices, just as the poor now are often making bad choices. (Darn those Third World people for choosing to be born into such unsuccessful societies!) We can either show compassion, or we can say "Sorry, you made your bed..."

It was interesting to me that when my BIL was dying young of cancer, people often asked me what he had done to bring it on. Did he smoke? (No.) This type of person would trail off with the conclusion that perhaps he didn't manage his stress well.

I am not a Christian, but I think that showing compassion--even when the other person has done something incredibly stupid--is the biggest virtue a person can have.

Who knows, we high-and-mighty smart people might someday need some compassion directed towards us.

Marta/Five-Leaf (who should know better than to get involved in this sort of discussion online)

Jaybird
04-24-2007, 09:02
I was just reading Smiles trail Journal and he mentioned that when he was going to stay at Woods Hole Shelter earlier this month there was a homeless person there who had taken over the shelter. ....................etc,etc,etc,.................. ..............



best thing to do...is nothing.
IF you must...you can report this as an "INCIDENT" to the nearest TRAIL RUNNER...or simply ask the (homeless) person to kindly share the shelter!:D

Frolicking Dinosaurs
04-24-2007, 09:45
::: Dino glad Marta got involved in this as she said some powerful thinks :::

Marta
04-24-2007, 10:18
::: Dino glad Marta got involved in this as she said some powerful thinks :::

As many of my co-workers would say (you know, the ones who actually do the heavy labor out there in the hot Carolina sun) "Muchas gracias!"

bearbait2k4
04-29-2007, 16:52
Late to this thread, but since it is resurrected.
Mogli, I agree it is complex, but it all starts with free will and bad choices. And there probably are other circumstnaces which further aggravate teh situation, but isn't it the specific choices they made what got them into your 4 week window?

Weak women marrying weak men = Choice
Weak Women allowing weak men to abuse them = Choice.
Weak Woman having Kids (Perhaps hoping it will change things) = Choice
Weak Women allowing Weak men to continue to abuse them = Choice.
Weak Woman stayign in abusive relationships because they are scared, or it is all they know = Choice.

People do have the power to make choices with their lives. Many may choose to blame other circumstances for their misfortunes. Others do something about it.

(BFitz - Thanks for the "...=Choice" format, which I shamelessly Plundered) :D

Yeah, that sounds exactly like the predicament of every homeless single mother on Earth. If anything else, you should realize that there is a huge amount of diversity, diverse thinking, and diverse situations that make up this world. Aspects that are black and white to outsiders are a myriad of colors to those who go through it, and, really, to put the entire world into the spectrum of just black and white is insulting.

Anyone that has hiked along the AT, or has anything to do with this community should realize that knowledge comes through experience, and that any situation that anyone goes through CAN be categorized and assimilated to another persons experience - even enough to put it into a routine category - but to that one person, the experience is unique to that person.

If you were a women in a predicament as purportedly black and white as you put it, would you have made all the right choices? NO, you can't say if you would or wouldn't, until you do it. You can say any and everything that you would LIKE to do, but until it happens, you really don't know, so the black and white judgement can be saved for another time.

Good Lord, people, this was a post about a homeless guy abusing AT shelter privileges. Sounds like the problem is no longer a problem...awesome.

:sun

On to the next AT issue...

Smile
04-29-2007, 16:59
I vote for:


People do have the power to make choices with their lives. Many may choose to blame other circumstances for their misfortunes. Others do something about it.

I think I will choose to accept that this is last year's thread! Wow, it really did get resurrected, huh!


I haven't heard about the situation at this shelter again this year, so I assume the guy has moved on or spent a very cold winter on the trail. I hope it works out for him wherever he is! :)

rjridgely
04-29-2007, 17:03
I just read this thread and find it amazing how diverse people are. I do hope that someday others will read back and find this about me because someday there will be hikers that come across me when I am homeless.
1. I want to be homeless. (homefree that is. I want to be free of all the bonds that come with being a traditional member of this culture that we call society) I have been working toward being able to walk away with only my pack and some things in a storage unit somewhere usa.
2. I have a family and children and of course I want to visit with them at their homes and keep in touch with them but they will be living their own lives and have their own adult decisions to make so they will only need me for a little advice here and there.
3. I will still have my financial plan working for me. By completely liqidating my money will continue to draw interest in a money market account. I can live off the interest and the rest will provide for me when I won't be able to hike another step. (I truely hope that day never comes.) I hope to grow old on a trail until one cold winter night as I watch the stars through a crystal clear ski while I am warmly cocooned in my sleeping bag I drift off into a permanent sleep.
4. But until then I want to hike, meet more wonderful people and listen to their stories of adventure, life and the wonderful people they have met along their way. I want to wake to beautiful sunrises and watch the sun drop against the horizon, I want to feel the pain of hunger and thirst along with the discomforts of too much rain and too much sun along with the bountiful days of plenty of food and water taken under a beautiful shade tree in front of a backdrop of mountains. I love the awsome surprises that trial life offers me. No diamond compares to rounding a bend in the trail to find a family of bears. Mama poking around a fallen tree for grubs and startled baby bears running for the nearest tree.
And if at times I have a bad day like everyone else does on occasion I hope that I don't get a reputation for being a crazy homeless person when in fact I by choice made plans to be home free for the benifit of me rather than to annoy anyone else.

wow, suddenly i just sat back with a momentary angth of envy.

spittinpigeon
04-29-2007, 17:45
I just read this thread and find it amazing how diverse people are. I do hope that someday others will read back and find this about me because someday there will be hikers that come across me when I am homeless.
1. I want to be homeless. (homefree that is. I want to be free of all the bonds that come with being a traditional member of this culture that we call society) I have been working toward being able to walk away with only my pack and some things in a storage unit somewhere usa.
2. I have a family and children and of course I want to visit with them at their homes and keep in touch with them but they will be living their own lives and have their own adult decisions to make so they will only need me for a little advice here and there.
3. I will still have my financial plan working for me. By completely liqidating my money will continue to draw interest in a money market account. I can live off the interest and the rest will provide for me when I won't be able to hike another step. (I truely hope that day never comes.) I hope to grow old on a trail until one cold winter night as I watch the stars through a crystal clear ski while I am warmly cocooned in my sleeping bag I drift off into a permanent sleep.
4. But until then I want to hike, meet more wonderful people and listen to their stories of adventure, life and the wonderful people they have met along their way. I want to wake to beautiful sunrises and watch the sun drop against the horizon, I want to feel the pain of hunger and thirst along with the discomforts of too much rain and too much sun along with the bountiful days of plenty of food and water taken under a beautiful shade tree in front of a backdrop of mountains. I love the awsome surprises that trial life offers me. No diamond compares to rounding a bend in the trail to find a family of bears. Mama poking around a fallen tree for grubs and startled baby bears running for the nearest tree.
And if at times I have a bad day like everyone else does on occasion I hope that I don't get a reputation for being a crazy homeless person when in fact I by choice made plans to be home free for the benifit of me rather than to annoy anyone else.

After your permanent sleep, you won't be needing that sleeping bag, can I get first dibs?

Smile
04-29-2007, 17:58
When is the ebay sale/liquidation? :)