View Full Version : Hiker Shot after being Mistaken for a Turkey
Five Tango
05-10-2021, 19:06
Seriously? I thought we looked more like deer! That is why I am averse to anything I have that's white to show in the woods so I keep my S29 All White Ursak covered up.Never thought I might look like a bird although I have been called a turkey before.
You can make this stuff up! https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/turkey-hunter-mistakenly-shoots-hiker-in-st-charles-county/article_0e348d84-0a57-588a-aa7f-e47b40c1eee3.html
Big_Old_Dog
05-10-2021, 19:31
Why do conservation areas allow hikers during hunting season. It is an accident waiting to happen. No surprise from me.
It’s the show me state, as in “show me you aren’t a turkey or I’ll shoot!”
Big_Old_Dog
05-10-2021, 20:36
Seriously? I thought we looked more like deer! That is why I am averse to anything I have that's white to show in the woods so I keep my S29 All White Ursak covered up.Never thought I might look like a bird although I have been called a turkey before.
You can make this stuff up! https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/turkey-hunter-mistakenly-shoots-hiker-in-st-charles-county/article_0e348d84-0a57-588a-aa7f-e47b40c1eee3.html
How do you know the hunter mistook a hiker for a turkey? That is not what is reported in the article.
A turkey shell has perhaps 100 pellets. It only takes 4 to kill a turkey. When the pellets come out of the shotgun barrel, they spread apart. The vast majority of pellets do NOT hit the bird. It is more likely the hiker was hit with a stray pellet.
I frequently hunt on game or conservation land. Regulations do not allow unleashed dogs and it is requested that hikers stay on trail and wear blaze orange. Do they? No. Dogs loose. No blaze orange. Off trail in the bush.
They should ban hiking on conservation land during hunting season. Would solve this problem.
Google tells me that Missouri is one of the state where you can hunt a turkey with a rifle. Could be the hiker was on the other side of the bird, and the hunter did not think about the lack of a backstop.
Here is a nice one I shot last week (Parker River NWR with a camera).
48061
nsherry61
05-11-2021, 01:20
Why do conservation areas allow hikers during hunting season. It is an accident waiting to happen. No surprise from me.
It's probably more dangerous for hunters during hunting season than hikers, especially if the hikers stay on trails. So, maybe hunters should be banned during hunting season also? I sure don't want to be banded from all huntable conservation areas during hunting season. I do like having signs to warn me about the risk of hunting, which were likely posted in this case?
. . . I frequently hunt on game or conservation land. Regulations do not allow unleashed dogs and it is requested that hikers stay on trail and wear blaze orange. Do they? No. Dogs loose. No blaze orange. Off trail in the bush.
They should ban hiking on conservation land during hunting season. Would solve this problem.
Banning all hunters would also solve this problem. But, I don't think that is a fair solution either.
Would you suggest banning 100 hikers per day from an area so one or two hunters per week can go hunting there? At what point do you draw the line, 20 hikers and 5 hunters?
From the beginning to the very end, it is 100% the hunter's responsibility to know where their projectile is going and what it might hit. If they are not ready for that responsibility, they should not be out hunting. Clearly this was a horrible and tragic mistake that should never have happened.
Traveler
05-11-2021, 07:39
Banning hunters or hikers from public lands doesn't make a lot of sense. Holding those who shoot either responsible for their actions does.
Five Tango
05-11-2021, 07:44
OK,here's an article on the same incident where the cop's say the hunter mistook the guy for a turkey.........
https://www.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/national/article251275594.html
For the record,I have called up turkeys before and taken a few with my shotgun.It requires a Close proximity to make a clean killing shot.Anybody that thinks a hiker is a turkey and shoots by mistake has some explaining to do......BTW,there's a reason most states make turkey hunting with rifles illegal.I am not clear if a rifle was used but it sounds like the injury to the hiker was serious.
Personally,I always wear some orange on my person and pack while in the woods regardless of hunting season because I have known a few people that somehow don't think hunting regulations applied to them.
Big_Old_Dog
05-11-2021, 08:28
In my state, hunting land was bought and paid for from the sale of hunting permits.
I consider hikers to be unwelcome guests.
Just offering the other side of the opinion.
Big_Old_Dog
05-11-2021, 08:31
Hunting turkeys with a rifle is weird. I am a good shot, regular in the 185-190 range 3P with a 22 rifle. I can't imagine using a rifle on a moving turkey at 40-50 yards.
It is 4, 5, or 6 shot here. You must be stationary and you must call them in. We generally cannot use rifles hunting. Slug or shotgun. Farmers can use small cal rifles to kill predators but that is about it. Sounds like some bad laws
This story is hard to comprehend.
BlackCloud
05-11-2021, 08:32
Must be a rifle. You would have to shoot someone at very close range with a shotgun to incur a "serious, life threatening" injury. Shotgun pellets only go, what, 50 yds?
If you mistake a human for a turkey than you don't know what you're shooting at. And that's not really an accident.
Big_Old_Dog
05-11-2021, 08:32
Also, we have plenty of hiking areas where hunting is not allowed vs very, very few areas where hunting is allowed.
Hikers should stay out of conservation areas during hunting season or at least wear blaze orange.
Hikers should stay out of conservation areas during hunting season.
Hunters need to be aware of their targets and their surroundings. There is no need whatsoever to ban hikers from hunting areas.
Big_Old_Dog
05-11-2021, 10:04
Hunters need to be aware of their targets and their surroundings. There is no need whatsoever to ban hikers from hunting areas.
Like I said in an earlier post. Hikers off trail, not in blaze orange, letting dogs run loose. I have been harassed several times by hikers when hunting, this is against the law in my state. I never reported them but if I took a picture of them and license plates, the CO would have written a citation. There is a lot of hiking land. Little hunting land, which was mostly paid for by hunting permits. Hunting season is short. Safest way is to keep hikers out. In my experience, they don't follow rules and are generally against hunting. To me the solution is simple, no hiking on hunting land during hunting season.
Accidents happen even if awareness of surroundings and targets. So, we can just disagree.
But all of that boils down to hikers making individual choices that don't create risk to others (they can elect where to go and what to wear). The legal responsibility should be on the hunters, not forbidding hikers to take personal risk.
Legal responsibility is on the hunter to know the target and background but also some responsibility falls on the hiker as well. If hikers are on land designated as a hunting area common sense must prevail on both sides,wear orange and stay alert. Yes you can hike or take a walk in the woods legally but seriously during hunting season and on posted land sometimes w/o orange,but of course you would be in the right but maybe dead right.
Five Tango
05-11-2021, 12:51
I went to school with a kid "mistaken for a deer" who was shot dead while hunting his own private property at about age 15.As long as hunters shoot at sound and motion these accidents will continue to happen.A Real hunter does not make sound and motion shots,is certain of the target,and knows exactly where the bullet is intended to strike.
If the cops think the hiker was mistaken for a turkey it means the shooter(sorry,can't call him a hunter) told them he "thought" the hiker was a turkey which really means he saw/heard some motion not clearly defined and took the shot because he was hoping it was a turkey.The shooter is not about to tell law enforcement "I saw/heard something moving so I shot it".
I hike sometimes with friends on WMA lands which also host a horse trail.Normally we stay off the WMA during deer and turkey season.And when we go there is always going to be some orange involved but there is always some risk that some tin horn idiot is out there that will take a sound/motion shot and worry about the consequences later.
I went to school with a kid "mistaken for a deer" who was shot dead while hunting his own private property at about age 15.As long as hunters shoot at sound and motion these accidents will continue to happen.A Real hunter does not make sound and motion shots,is certain of the target,and knows exactly where the bullet is intended to strike.
If the cops think the hiker was mistaken for a turkey it means the shooter(sorry,can't call him a hunter) told them he "thought" the hiker was a turkey which really means he saw/heard some motion not clearly defined and took the shot because he was hoping it was a turkey.The shooter is not about to tell law enforcement "I saw/heard something moving so I shot it".
I hike sometimes with friends on WMA lands which also host a horse trail.Normally we stay off the WMA during deer and turkey season.And when we go there is always going to be some orange involved but there is always some risk that some tin horn idiot is out there that will take a sound/motion shot and worry about the consequences later.
Agree completely with this. "Never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to destroy".
That gun safety concept is based on identifying your target with complete surety. Discernment is paramount regardless of who or what is in the vicinity.
I hate trusting others to be that discerning but I have to in wilderness areas.
LittleRock
05-11-2021, 13:43
That's interesting. I always thought hunting season was roughly Oct/Nov-Feb/Mar. I'd never have thought to wear orange at this time of year.
How many On this thread are Hunters? Heres a question ill poise to you.We pay for licenses and higher rates for our gear than backpackers. We do more for conservation than any hiker I have met very few hikers volunteer with clubs. Only thing backpackers do is take..They also complain that they may have to use a bear canister, Yet hunters have alot of rules they have to follow. I agree keep hikers out during hunting season. I brought this up on another forum do to the idiots flooding the trails. OH if you wonderd all my life I ve backpacked and hunted. IT surprises me when I look and backpackers lost the main thing Stewardship. BUt yet we pay more to do conservation. its also interesting that the mountain bike clubs want access to the PCT and their willing to do maintenace.
How many On this thread are Hunters? Heres a question ill poise to you.We pay for licenses and higher rates for our gear than backpackers. We do more for conservation than any hiker I have met very few hikers volunteer with clubs. Only thing backpackers do is take..They also complain that they may have to use a bear canister, Yet hunters have alot of rules they have to follow. I agree keep hikers out during hunting season. I brought this up on another forum do to the idiots flooding the trails. OH if you wonderd all my life I ve backpacked and hunted. IT surprises me when I look and backpackers lost the main thing Stewardship. BUt yet we pay more to do conservation. its also interesting that the mountain bike clubs want access to the PCT and their willing to do maintenace.
I'm really struggling to see how this is related to the topic.
I'm really struggling to see how this is related to the topic.
Caleb its simple I looked at some of the responss the biggest one that meets the criteria of tsker of a backpacker is Nsherry 61 response about bannig hikers in conservation areas.Point blank we pay to use the outdoors hunting backpackers dont pay squate or do any stewardship unless they volunteer in a club.In other words I respect more hunters then the backpackers I meet. Ask most NOBOS the principles of LNT see what you get for a response . Hunting ypou have to go through a hunter safety course..
Alligator
05-11-2021, 17:57
This happened on the Weldon Spring Conservation Area. That's in Missouri (not NJ). Here is a brochure (https://mdc.mo.gov/sites/default/files/mo_nature/downloads/conservation-areas/7404.pdf) with some information for the Conservation Area. In it, it is stated "Hunters may not hunt on or within 100 feet of any trails, or roads open to vehicular traffic." Both news articles linked earlier say the hike was on the trail. There was a special turkey hunt on Missouri Conservation land.
Hunting regulations for Missouri (https://mdc.mo.gov/hunting-trapping/regulations)-Doesn't say that even hunters need to wear blaze orange for spring turkey hunting but it does elsewhere for example deer hunting. There is a specific regulation stated in fall turkey hunting "During all portions of the firearms deer hunting season, all persons hunting any game, and also adult mentors accompanying them, must wear a cap or hat and a shirt, vest, or coat of the color commonly known as hunter orange, which must be plainly visible from all sides. "
Additional turkey hunting regulations specific to the Conservation Area. (https://mdc.mo.gov/discover-nature/places/weldon-spring-conservation-area) See Turkey-Spring (Mangaged Hunt)
Methods
Shotgun only. All other statewide turkey hunting methods apply.
Five Tango
05-11-2021, 18:08
For the record,the WMA I like to hike and camp on requires a current hunting/fishing license for you to be out there whether you are hunting/fishing or not.So yes,I am paying my "fair share" like any hunter would be.
Also,I have hunted a good bit in my youth but not on public lands partly because of fear of those who shoot at unidentified targets,i.e.,sound and motion.
Also,sorry I started this thread as I was not intending to start something between those who hunt and those who don't.Just wanted to point out that you need to be seen "out there" 12 months out of the year lest some idiot thinks you are are wild game,shoots first,and says,"Oops,my bad" later.
From Pennsylvania and yes the game commission purchases new land with license fees. Half of earning also come from gas, lumber and other such sources. I've hiked and hunted most of my sixty-six years. Now we have Sunday hunting too. So I don't think there is a right answer when it comes to who gets to do what. I do strongly believe that if you have a firearm of any kind you're responsible for knowing when you pull that trigger where the projectile is going!
Here is a list of states that allow turkey hunting with a rifle. Not sure if it is accurate, but it affirms that Missouri is one of them.
https://omegaoutdoors.blog/rifle-turkey-hunting-table/
Seeing one used to be a rare treat in Massachusetts. Now they are common sight in suburban backyards and just about everywhere. They block the road more often than snapping turtles.
Alligator
05-11-2021, 18:27
Also many probably aren't aware that the majority (61%) of the budget for the Missouri Department of Conservation (https://oa.mo.gov/sites/default/files/FY_2021_Conservation_Budget_Request.pdf) (see page 3) comes from a state 1/8 cent sales tax with only ~17% coming from permits.
Alligator
05-11-2021, 18:46
Here is a list of states that allow turkey hunting with a rifle. Not sure if it is accurate, but it affirms that Missouri is one of them.
https://omegaoutdoors.blog/rifle-turkey-hunting-table/
Seeing one used to be a rare treat in Massachusetts. Now they are common sight in suburban backyards and just about everywhere. They block the road more often than snapping turtles.Dead link when you try to follow it for Missouri. On the mdc.mo.gov page, (https://mdc.mo.gov/hunting-trapping/seasons?field_learn_more_about_species_target_id=8 2) all it says for firearms are shotguns for turkey.
Dead link when you try to follow it for Missouri. On the mdc.mo.gov page, (https://mdc.mo.gov/hunting-trapping/seasons?field_learn_more_about_species_target_id=8 2) all it says for firearms are shotguns for turkey.
Alligator appreciate the articles you posted but it wont change my mind. Like i said hunters do more for conservation than any hiker..Why dont you get the numbers on how many join clubss and volunteer and also look up their average age. I like to see those satistics. I am just staying the obvious. Should have been called out years ago and they should have a mandatory LNT class...
What does how much each group pays have to do with this thread?
Alligator appreciate the articles you posted but it wont change my mind. Like i said hunters do more for conservation than any hiker.
Probably depends on the hiker :-)
As for overall contributions to conservation, hunters are clearly forced to contribute a great deal of money in addition to that which they give freely.
Not nearly as much as non hunters, however.
At least according to this paper (and common sense).
https://www.wyofile.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/SMITH-1.pdf
Probably more important things to worry about — like the great primer shortage.
Alligator
05-12-2021, 00:42
What does how much each group pays have to do with this thread?Not much of anything really, just a strawman argument and deflection from the hunter's responsibility to know what he was shooting at. Hiker may also be a hunter who knows right?
Anyway here's the map (https://mdc.mo.gov/sites/default/files/mo_nature/downloads/conservation-areas/7404map.pdf) of the 8,398 acre conservation area. Hunters are required to stay out of and not hunt into a 100 ft buffer either side of the trail. That's 200 ft wide with the trail in the middle. Two hundred feet is roughly 1/32 of a mile. Divide the one mile scale on the map into 32nds and pretty much the width of the line marking the trails is the exclusion zone. That leaves the vast majority open for hunting. You can hunt something all year long in Missouri, but in order to do so, you have to be able to tell the difference between species. That's a basic fundamental requirement. It's rather pointless to argue about hikers shouldn't be there because of volunteer hours and who paid for what. If this hunter couldn't identify a human on the trail he was supposed to be avoiding he'd sure have a hard time identifying another hunter dressed in camouflage like he was out in the woods.
In other states you can also shoot animals year round or nearly so even right along the AT in places. It's completely understandable to expect hunters to be able to identify the difference between species that are not humans and humans because "hiker season" has a different meaning than what they may expect. Turkey...human. Human...squirrel. Skunk...hiker... ok I can smell the problem there but that wasn't the situation.
cmoulder
05-12-2021, 07:55
Back in '88 Greg Lemond (3-time Tour de France winner) was shot by his brother in law who though he was a turkey. Came pretty close to dying due to blood loss, and might've if it weren't for his extreme level of physical fitness, doctors speculated at the time.
FlyPaper
05-12-2021, 08:39
Like I said in an earlier post. Hikers off trail, not in blaze orange, letting dogs run loose. I have been harassed several times by hikers when hunting, this is against the law in my state. I never reported them but if I took a picture of them and license plates, the CO would have written a citation. There is a lot of hiking land. Little hunting land, which was mostly paid for by hunting permits. Hunting season is short. Safest way is to keep hikers out. In my experience, they don't follow rules and are generally against hunting. To me the solution is simple, no hiking on hunting land during hunting season.
Accidents happen even if awareness of surroundings and targets. So, we can just disagree.
Hikers generally hike on trails and the trails cannot be moved off hunting land during hunting season. The AT crosses some hunting land, but there's not a chance we're closing the AT due to hunting season and the mere suggestion is absurd. The AT is 2200 miles and it is not practical for a long distance hiker to keep up with hunting land boundaries and seasons of 14 different states. If you don't think you can distinguish a person from game correctly 100% of the time before taking a shot, then you shouldn't be hunting. Orange is a good idea, but only as extra safety. If you're shooting at something that moves because you don't see orange, you shouldn't be hunting.
I'm a hiker and an occasional hunter. I am not against either.
Traveler
05-12-2021, 08:59
Also, we have plenty of hiking areas where hunting is not allowed vs very, very few areas where hunting is allowed.
Hikers should stay out of conservation areas during hunting season or at least wear blaze orange.
Though pubic land and waters used for hunting and fishing are well supported through State hunting and fishing licensing structures, they are not the only ones who contribute funds, time, and efforts to support these public lands. For example special license plates encourage financial participation through a broad cross section of the population. To claim no one outside of hunters do more to support public lands ignores the reality of the contributions of civic and volunteer groups who fund raise and maintain protection of these parcels of land, never mind maintain trails used by hikers and hunters alike. I don't find hunters to be any more or less involved in conservation and maintenance efforts than hikers overall. Volunteers tend to be a fairly broad mix that include hunters.
While public lands are open to all who follow use regulations, there are pubic lands in NJ that are closed to hikers during hunting season/s, some close on specific days, others close down for extended blocks of time. Essentially these land areas prohibit non-hunters during specific times/dates. https://www.njhiking.com/hiking-nj-during-hunting-season/. Conversely, some public lands are closed to hunting during these seasons. Being difficult to keep people out of large tracks of land, there is no shortage of non-hunters going into lands closed for hunter use, or hunters going into lands closed to hunting.
NJ also subscribes to the PA standard for hunters and non-hunters on public land during posted hunting seasons. It's difficult to see if this is a regulation or a standard between States and what specific hunting season one is involved with. However, this standard is used rather broadly outside of the region so I suspect it is not black letter law. Unfortunately, not all hikers follow these suggestions, conversely not all hunters do either, which the end result over time can be an accident that raises awareness for a season or two before it degrades again until the next one.
“All hunters and non-hunters are required to wear at least 250 square inches of fluorescent orange material on the head, chest and back combined, or a fluorescent orange hat, from Nov. 15 to Dec. 15 (except on Sundays). The orange material must be visible from allangles (360 degrees)" (PA Game Land Regulations, November, 2020)
Five Tango
05-12-2021, 15:11
Hikers generally hike on trails and the trails cannot be moved off hunting land during hunting season. The AT crosses some hunting land, but there's not a chance we're closing the AT due to hunting season and the mere suggestion is absurd. The AT is 2200 miles and it is not practical for a long distance hiker to keep up with hunting land boundaries and seasons of 14 different states. If you don't think you can distinguish a person from game correctly 100% of the time before taking a shot, then you shouldn't be hunting. Orange is a good idea, but only as extra safety. If you're shooting at something that moves because you don't see orange, you shouldn't be hunting.
I'm a hiker and an occasional hunter. I am not against either.
Ditto! I would like to point out that in the case of turkeys it is only legal to harvest the male of the species.This means you would need positive identification not only that it's a bird but that it's a male bird.In order for that to happen you need to have a clear view of what you're shooting at.I just hope the injured hiker in Missouri pulls thru because from what I can tell it was a rifle shot to the chest.
As far as hikers and hunters coexisting it shouldn't be that hard for hunters to get far enough off the trail for hikers to be a non issue,should it?
Here is a list of states that allow turkey hunting with a rifle. Not sure if it is accurate, but it affirms that Missouri is one of them.
https://omegaoutdoors.blog/rifle-turkey-hunting-table/
Seeing one used to be a rare treat in Massachusetts. Now they are common sight in suburban backyards and just about everywhere. They block the road more often than snapping turtles.
I would suggest get a better resource to back your claim then one loaded with reference from Biased resources. Yes i looked up those .Atleast your giving me something to read and maybe change my mind...But better sources not ones that has a diversed interest in it.
I would suggest get a better resource to back your claim then one loaded with reference from Biased resources. Yes i looked up those .Atleast your giving me something to read and maybe change my mind...But better sources not ones that has a diversed interest in it.
I think you meant the the link I posted after that one. As Alligator pointed out my link to the rifle/shotgun table was flawed.
https://www.wyofile.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/SMITH-1.pdf
Food for thought.
One thing sportsmen are always quick to point out is the big bucks generated by the Pittman-Robertson & Dingell-Johnson acts. Close to a billion dollars a year.
One thing the article I linked did was to make an attempt to break out how much of that pot of gold was from hunters vs. other consumers. They were candid about the fact that made assumptions to do so.
The sounded reasonable to me. At least in my circle, those buying .50 BMG are not doing so to hunt.
Of course, I live in MA. YMMV.
I think you meant the the link I posted after that one. As Alligator pointed out my link to the rifle/shotgun table was flawed.
https://www.wyofile.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/SMITH-1.pdf
Food for thought.
Yes I went through that and their sources LOL Humane society orh kie they dont have an interest in being non partial LOL...Like I said I appreciate it your trying . I do agree hunting has fallen off. thats been known though its been in a decline. BUT still pay for use and etc. What do backpackers pay besides backcountry fees if they go into a National Park? Like i said they sure use alot and really dont pay. Prime example how many former or Present hikers belong to a trial club and volunteer? I can name three I have gotten some advise when I posted something. Sure a very narrow amount of people that volunteer and do the trail work compared to the users dont ya think?
nsherry61
05-13-2021, 01:55
. . . As far as hikers and hunters coexisting it shouldn't be that hard for hunters to get far enough off the trail for hikers to be a non issue,should it?
I think it depends on where you are. There are certainly places in New England that allow turkey and deer hunting in areas where you'd be hard pressed to ever be more than 100 or 200 yards from a trail.
I think the key to success in this discussion is recognizing that there are vastly different circumstances in many different areas. In many areas out west, it would be absurd to close hunting season to hikers as the areas are vast and hunters are relatively few and trails are fewer if existing at all, and posting adequate signage would be impossible. Whereas out east, there are lots of areas that are smaller relative to the number of hunters and hikers with a high density of trails and posting signage is a reasonable possibility.
I kinda like the idea of hunting days and hiking days on certain properties during hunting seasons if it's possible to keep the users adequately informed. Then, hikers could avoid the hunting days and hunters would be less likely to have to deal with hikers on their hunting days and nobody is banned from the land for any significant period of time.
Seatbelt
05-13-2021, 07:31
As a hunter since my youth, I have a question. Why would any hunter want to hunt daytime game [knowingly] close to other people, whether hikers, other hunters, houses, roads, etc? The risk of distractions scaring off game as well as trusting other hunters to positively identify me would be too great in my mind.
BlackCloud
05-13-2021, 09:10
Ditto! I would like to point out that in the case of turkeys it is only legal to harvest the male of the species.This means you would need positive identification not only that it's a bird but that it's a male bird.In order for that to happen you need to have a clear view of what you're shooting at.I just hope the injured hiker in Missouri pulls thru because from what I can tell it was a rifle shot to the chest.
As far as hikers and hunters coexisting it shouldn't be that hard for hunters to get far enough off the trail for hikers to be a non issue,should it?
As a non-hunter didn't know this, and I doubt many others did. Adds weight to my perception that this was negligence and not an accident.
Thought the tread that hunters don't pay for their license out of the goodness of heart to buy new land or maintain. As a hunter/backpacker I know hunters complain every time there is an increase in price. With less young people hunting the rates in PA have gone up and up. Not an answer to the debate but thought I'd add the prospective.
Five Tango
05-13-2021, 18:57
As a hunter since my youth, I have a question. Why would any hunter want to hunt daytime game [knowingly] close to other people, whether hikers, other hunters, houses, roads, etc? The risk of distractions scaring off game as well as trusting other hunters to positively identify me would be too great in my mind.
I am going to guess that it's the only place they can find to hunt.However,in my area there are many hunt clubs that rent property from private land owners to use exclusively for hunting.They each pay a few hundred dollars per year to be in the club.It's a system that works fairly well as far as I know since the hunters have some say as to who is allowed in the club and the public does not have access to the property.
I am going to guess that it's the only place they can find to hunt.However,in my area there are many hunt clubs that rent property from private land owners to use exclusively for hunting.They each pay a few hundred dollars per year to be in the club.It's a system that works fairly well as far as I know since the hunters have some say as to who is allowed in the club and the public does not have access to the property.
iN Texas I hunted on Private land do to the size of game in different locations in the state,. In Virginia I hunt private and public. You will find that the game can move near public access roads close to creeks. But I take some hunters are not use to moving when hunting and just sit in a blind. I really dont know how Seatbelt hunts..Has he never hunted near other hunters?
Seatbelt
05-14-2021, 07:36
iN Texas I hunted on Private land do to the size of game in different locations in the state,. In Virginia I hunt private and public. You will find that the game can move near public access roads close to creeks. But I take some hunters are not use to moving when hunting and just sit in a blind. I really dont know how Seatbelt hunts..Has he never hunted near other hunters?
Not intentionally I haven't. I quit deer hunting many years ago when hunting on private land I observed many trespassers hunting on the property, walking right up on me without seeing me[yes I was wearing orange]. To answer your question, I never liked hunting with others except for night hunting, which is actually safer in groups. Growing up in a National Forest area and hunting/fishing extensively, I can't honestly say that nobody else was ever around, but whenever I noticed them, I moved on.
Traveler
05-14-2021, 08:03
iN Texas I hunted on Private land do to the size of game in different locations in the state,. In Virginia I hunt private and public. You will find that the game can move near public access roads close to creeks. But I take some hunters are not use to moving when hunting and just sit in a blind. I really dont know how Seatbelt hunts..Has he never hunted near other hunters?
At least in Texas, one apologizes when putting their face into the shotgun pellet pattern. Good form, that.
Five Tango
05-14-2021, 09:21
So I went bird hunting with some friends for quail.It was a guided hunt of course with bird dogs.I was more interested in not having an incident over some stupid quail like shooting a buddy "on the swing" so when the first thing out of the guides mough was,"Any of you accidentally shoot my dog it's gonna cost you FIVE GRAND" I was pretty impressed.
If there were clear cut fines for hunting accidents that included heavy financial costs and/or jail time in the event of death then I think some people might actually know what they are shooting at before they pull the trigger and worry about the apology later.
Not intentionally I haven't. I quit deer hunting many years ago when hunting on private land I observed many trespassers hunting on the property, walking right up on me without seeing me[yes I was wearing orange]. To answer your question, I never liked hunting with others except for night hunting, which is actually safer in groups. Growing up in a National Forest area and hunting/fishing extensively, I can't honestly say that nobody else was ever around, but whenever I noticed them, I moved on.
Yes that would throw me off to if it startled me. The properties in different states I have hunting in if they were private there was a limiting number on the property. In Texas you ll see most of the trophy shots they publish is south Texas three Rivers area. Public land here in Virginia I only go to a couple mostly on private property friends are farmers and hunters...
4eyedbuzzard
05-14-2021, 17:35
I thought he was a turkey...
48092
Male Turkey
48090
Female Turkey
48091
Hiker
Really? I've got no problems with hunters. But armed IDIOTS in the woods shooting at unidentified targets aren't hunters, they're just IDIOTS - no matter how much they pay in taxes and license fees.
I agree, but found this interesting nevertheless:
https://www.huntersafetylab.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/mistaken-for-game-hunting-accidents-a-human-factors-review1.pdf
FlyPaper
05-14-2021, 22:49
I agree, but found this interesting nevertheless:
https://www.huntersafetylab.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/mistaken-for-game-hunting-accidents-a-human-factors-review1.pdf
Interesting paper (I skimmed parts of it and red other parts more carefully). A couple of thoughts:
1. They say that accidents are more common with experienced hunters than non-experienced hunters. I know they are researchers and may have accounted for the disparity, but they didn't comment on what I would consider the obvious selection bias with regards to "time in woods". I would guess that at any given moment, of all hunters in the woods the vast majority would be considered "experienced hunters" because they're the ones going back over and over again. So it would require a careful statistical analysis to gauge the exact extent that experienced hunters are more or less likely to shoot at a person by mistake. It would be totally inadequate just to count the number of cases and see which one is greater, even if the difference in raw count is large.
2. Obviously few incidents where one hunter shoots another has any witnesses and no objective way to evaluate the psychological process. I know myself, and I know others are built with the same cognitive blind spots. If I had recently shot a human being by accident while hunting, my memory of the event would be distorted in my mind to a very large extent out of extreme guilt. I'd rewrite my memory so that I could see myself as being as innocent as I can manage under the circumstances. I'm not saying I'd lie about it. It's just that we as humans cannot evaluate our own actions objectively when they're loaded with that much guilt. Much of what we learn about hunting accidents come from self reporting by those who have just undergone the most unpleasant and guilt inducing event they'll experience in their whole life.
I pray I'll never join that club. I have a lot of sympathy for them because even if carelessness was involved, the life-long guilt is a horrible thing for them to have to carry. One may easily quip that they don't deserve sympathy because they killed someone. But I'd guess that many of us (including me) have done things stupid enough that could have resulted in someone's death with a just little more bad luck.
Slow Trek
05-15-2021, 00:27
Can't help but tell this story.We took a group of Boy Scouts on a 20 mile hike on a combined hike/bike trail in NW Iowa,a former railroad track. At each road crossing were posted No Hunting signs. This being Iowa,with farm to market roads,that means a sign every mile. Since we were teaching the boys LNT,we had bags to pick up trash,including 50 plus spent shotgun shells. About 8 miles in,we met a fellow who told me we should not be hiking there during pheasant season.I can't say for sure he was an illegal hunter,but he was carrying a shotgun,and had a very nice looking dog with him. Nice of him to warn us about hunters in the No Hunting area though...
Awesome, thanks for teaching all them scouts the LNT and retrieving all the spent shells.
But how dare you take all them little bird looking like creatures out walking/hiking during bird hunting season?
Shame on you!
As a deer hunter i can't tell you how many times i've come out of some thicket only to discover i am in some one's cross hairs. A lot of hunters don't try to hide the fact that there rifle is aimed at you. Makes one wonder but then again i could get run over by a bus so i'll take the risk and keep hiking and hunting.
nsherry61
05-15-2021, 12:41
. . . I have a lot of sympathy for them because even if carelessness was involved, the life-long guilt is a horrible thing for them to have to carry. One may easily quip that they don't deserve sympathy because they killed someone. But I'd guess that many of us (including me) have done things stupid enough that could have resulted in someone's death with a just little more bad luck.
Well said and true. Carelessness with a gun that ends in injury or death to another is one of the more unforgivable mistakes I think anyone can make. I have a lot of sympathy for people that make such horrible mistakes and have to live with them. BUT, I sure as heck have NO interest in doing anything less than throwing the whole book at them and dramatically curtailing their freedom and opportunities for a very long time after such an act.
. . . posted No Hunting signs. . . we met a fellow who told me we should not be hiking there during pheasant season.I can't say for sure he was an illegal hunter,but he was carrying a shotgun,and had a very nice looking dog with him. Nice of him to warn us about hunters in the No Hunting area though...
I grew up with lots of private family property that was well signed as No Hunting. That way, we (and our friends) got to hunt our property without the game being diminished by other random hunters. And, maybe even more importantly, we could hunt our property with much reduced fear of being shot by some other dumb hunter.
I dunno, not a hunter myself, don’t own a gun. But someone coming on here and saying hikers don’t do jack for conservation, that hunters do it all and pay for it all... sorry, but that’s out of line.
Clearly I can’t speak for what hunters do or pay, but I know too many hikers that do way more than their share and it’s unfair to lump them in with a very narrow perception of what and who hikers are compared to hunters. (I’m not one of them by the way)
And frankly, I find it to be bad form on a post about a hiker getting shot to say that it’s somehow their fault, or the fault of hikers being allowed where hunting occurs. Don’t have to be a hunter to understand you’re responsible for what you shoot.
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I dunno, not a hunter myself, don’t own a gun. But someone coming on here and saying hikers don’t do jack for conservation, that hunters do it all and pay for it all... sorry, but that’s out of line.
Clearly I can’t speak for what hunters do or pay, but I know too many hikers that do way more than their share and it’s unfair to lump them in with a very narrow perception of what and who hikers are compared to hunters. (I’m not one of them by the way)
And frankly, I find it to be bad form on a post about a hiker getting shot to say that it’s somehow their fault, or the fault of hikers being allowed where hunting occurs. Don’t have to be a hunter to understand you’re responsible for what you shoot.
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OK you think its out of line. Then tell me exactly what all every hiker hiking the AT dioes for conservation? Also tell me based on number of trail clubs and how many members in a trail club its an issue to get more members. I ll tell you what most people do they make a one time donation to the ATC and its all good in their thinking. The only other org that does trail maintenance witht heir members is ALDHA besides the trail clubs.So which do you belong to?
Hobbs
The trail exists in decent shape because enough people DO volunteer and donate to maintain it. Arguably that reflects better on hikers than hunters, who as you point out contribute via fees and taxes.
The contribution is irrelevant anyway. You shoot at a noise or what you think is a prey animal that turns out to be a human, you’re status as good is over. Would you feel differently if the guy had shot another noble hunter? Should we not allow hunters on hunting land so they don’t shoot each other, as one can also read about with dismal frequency?
Hobbs
The trail exists in decent shape because enough people DO volunteer and donate to maintain it. Arguably that reflects better on hikers than hunters, who as you point out contribute via fees and taxes.
The contribution is irrelevant anyway. You shoot at a noise or what you think is a prey animal that turns out to be a human, you’re status as good is over. Would you feel differently if the guy had shot another noble hunter? Should we not allow hunters on hunting land so they don’t shoot each other, as one can also read about with dismal frequency?
Yeah I read that analysis was intereting.But this could be argued two different ways and add responcibility to it..So what would you say about hikers that harm other hikers? Hikers that do folllow LN? Hikers that treat trail angels and maintaners like errend boys? Man i can add to my list if you like and lets include how many per year are on trail and contribute to anything positive?
Big_Old_Dog
05-16-2021, 08:04
Hunters contribute $1.6 Billion with a B annually to land conservation. This goes to buy land for wild life habitat.
If I want to hunt deer, elk, and pronghorn in Colorado, for instance, my permits would run over $1500.
My yearly fees in my state are often $500.
Traveler
05-16-2021, 08:13
"OK you think its out of line. Then tell me exactly what all every hiker hiking the AT dioes for conservation? Also tell me based on number of trail clubs and how many members in a trail club its an issue to get more members. I ll tell you what most people do they make a one time donation to the ATC and its all good in their thinking. The only other org that does trail maintenance witht heir members is ALDHA besides the trail clubs.So which do you belong to?"
I do not know "most people" so I have no clue what "most people" do relative to donating time, money, or materials to the ATC. I am not sure what data is being used regarding "most people" making a one time donation to the AMC, I suspect it resides alongside the notion that hunters are rarely sober, both being unfortunate uninformed opinions that surround these activities.
Touting hunters as the only people who should be allowed in the woods during a particular time of year as they are the only ones who really support forests is north of specious. There are many groups in the US that focus on land use, trail management, and conservation issues. For example, the Connecticut Forest and Parks Association (CFPA) predates the ATC having been founded in 1895. Their membership is robust and includes a deep cross section of skill sets to field training efforts for a broad variety of training for volunteer labor for trail maintenance needs, in easements and managing property owner issues, and providing a credible voice to the legislature in support of conservation of woodlands and waterways. There are many different ways people contribute to conservation issues, hunters being one of several.
Big_Old_Dog
05-16-2021, 11:12
Pittman-Robertson Act imposed 11% tax on all hunting supplies to fund conservation of land. How about a similar act for hikers, x country skiers, ultra runners, mountain bikers, etc. None of these groups do anything to fund the conservation of land, all the arguments to the contrary are specious at best.
Pittman-Robertson Act imposed 11% tax on all hunting supplies to fund conservation of land. How about a similar act for hikers, x country skiers, ultra runners, mountain bikers, etc. None of these groups do anything to fund the conservation of land, all the arguments to the contrary are specious at best.
Really? "None of these groups do anything"?
What madness is that??
Why would a hunter come on a hiking site to talk bad about hikers? Troll?!?
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nsherry61
05-16-2021, 13:33
This thread is drifting in an interesting direction away from the horrible and irresponsible mistake of a hunter to the banning of hikers on huntable land during hunting season to what group(s) pays more money to preserver more of what land.
Interestingly, none of the hikers in this thread have suggested hunters should be banned from anything other than shooting hikers. While the hunters (at least a couple) keep suggesting that hikers should be banned from legal hunting lands. Way to turn sympathetic supporters away from you hunters!
So, let me get this right . . . Hunters make up ~5% of American adults while hikers make up about 50% of American adults. I would suggest that if hunters want to maintain access to hunting on public lands, they better darn well figure out how to not alienate the non-hunting public. AND, blaming victims for getting shot by hunters, suggesting hikers shouldn't be hiking on public lands during hunting season, is NOT a very effective way to achieve that.
And, for what it's worth, yes, hunters are forced through hunting licenses and fees to disproportionately support government funded wildlife management, frankly, leading to hunter bias government wildlife management. BUT, that forced support is just a drop in the bucket compared to the many times greater contribution to land (not just wildlife) conservation made by the non-hunting public made largely through non-profit organizations.
I fully support hunting on public lands so as long as hunters take full responsibility for their actions and impact.
gpburdelljr
05-16-2021, 14:47
Public lands are going to continue to be open to the public, hunters and hikers alike. Both hunters and hikers alike just need to practice a little common sense.
Pittman-Robertson Act imposed 11% tax on all hunting supplies to fund conservation of land. How about a similar act for hikers, x country skiers, ultra runners, mountain bikers, etc. None of these groups do anything to fund the conservation of land, all the arguments to the contrary are specious at best.
Some have suggested that the vast majority of funds generated from the Pittman-Robertson Act come from non-hunters.
Further, some have suggested that the vast majority of contributions made to conservation organizations and land trusts (with a few exceptions, like Ducks Unlimited) have been made by non hunters.
4eyedbuzzard
05-16-2021, 15:04
What alternate reality do some of you live in? Exactly how does whether or not hunters finance certain public lands more than hikers do, have anything, ANYTHING to do with making it somehow excusable to shoot people? /smh
What alternate reality do some of you live in? Exactly how does whether or not hunters finance certain public lands more than hikers do, have anything, ANYTHING to do with making it somehow excusable to shoot people? /smh
Uh, yep, this.
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nsherry61
05-16-2021, 15:17
What alternate reality do some of you live in? Exactly how does whether or not hunters finance certain public lands more than hikers do, have anything, ANYTHING to do with making it somehow excusable to shoot people? /smh
Couldn't agree more.
Agreed. Just a bizarre attempt at changing the subject.
Ditto.
However, FWIW, I would support a similar tax on other outdoor gear. Or just a straight up usage fee.
And I don’t think Hobbs is trolling us, I’ve seen plenty of posts from him in other threads. This one must just hit a sore spot. Still totally disagree that hunting usage fees and taxes excuse shooting people.
Maybe hikers should sing a little song in hunting season
“I’m not a turkey, I’m not a deer
So please don’t go shooting round about here”
Couple of things... first, I think it’s a stretch the other way to suggest that the hunters here were suggesting it’s ok to shoot hikers. Second, hikers shouldn’t have to do squat to not get shot.
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Hobbs
The trail exists in decent shape because enough people DO volunteer and donate to maintain it. Arguably that reflects better on hikers than hunters, who as you point out contribute via fees and taxes.
The contribution is irrelevant anyway. You shoot at a noise or what you think is a prey animal that turns out to be a human, you’re status as good is over. Would you feel differently if the guy had shot another noble hunter? Should we not allow hunters on hunting land so they don’t shoot each other, as one can also read about with dismal frequency?
No Iam not trolling you...If I was you would see foul laungage. I am a hiker so that pweson is far off on assumptions. Also How many idiots on the trail this year dont follow LNT? SO like i said whats the ratio of hikers to trail clubs and actually giving back? NOT very big. Whats the age of most trail club members? Yeah you want to see how great this years AT cless is on trail with regards to LNT just go on FB in the AT groups see the tagging and crap..OH but its ok hike your own hike..Tyhis isnt trolling And no its not ok a hunter shot someone. BUT that hunter had more right to be there than a hiker. BUY the way RICK when you use a paper thats supporting Information from groups that are BIas its not a reliable source..Maybe ask a professor sometime.
No Iam not trolling you...If I was you would see foul laungage. I am a hiker so that pweson is far off on assumptions. Also How many idiots on the trail this year dont follow LNT? SO like i said whats the ratio of hikers to trail clubs and actually giving back? NOT very big. Whats the age of most trail club members? Yeah you want to see how great this years AT cless is on trail with regards to LNT just go on FB in the AT groups see the tagging and crap..OH but its ok hike your own hike..Tyhis isnt trolling And no its not ok a hunter shot someone. BUT that hunter had more right to be there than a hiker. BUY the way RICK when you use a paper thats supporting Information from groups that are BIas its not a reliable source..Maybe ask a professor sometime.
No one EVER has more right to use public land than anyone else, no group over any other group. This is my basic gripe with what you are saying. I think it’s a fine argument to say how much hunters and hunting orgs put into land conservation, etc., but only as an argument for how to best manage use for all groups. I believe there are reasons for why hunters pay and do more that you are all too conveniently leaving out, along with reasons for allowing hikers to hike that most agree with. And no, not going to detail those and try to convince you.
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No one EVER has more right to use public land than anyone else, no group over any other group. This is my basic gripe with what you are saying. I think it’s a fine argument to say how much hunters and hunting orgs put into land conservation, etc., but only as an argument for how to best manage use for all groups. I believe there are reasons for why hunters pay and do more that you are all too conveniently leaving out, along with reasons for allowing hikers to hike that most agree with. And no, not going to detail those and try to convince you.
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If you feel that way about public lands then we can bring the equestrians on the AT then.Their a group also Mountain bikers their a group and ass you stated this is public land...So your arguments kind of counter anything you say. BUT hey hike your own hike.BTW is a hiker kills another hiker whos fault is it and responcibility? curious your answer?
If you feel that way about public lands then we can bring the equestrians on the AT then.Their a group also Mountain bikers their a group and ass you stated this is public land...So your arguments kind of counter anything you say. BUT hey hike your own hike.BTW is a hiker kills another hiker whos fault is it and responcibility? curious your answer?
Your perspective is overly simplistic. If I go with what you’re saying, everyone will have their own designated area to only hunt or hike or bike or ride horse, etc. Its always about management and like I’ve said, I have no issue with you saying the outdoors could be managed differently. Only issue is your either/or perspective that seems overly blamed UL of hikers for some reason. Guess you’re sore about all that money you’re paying to hunt?
And your question is total bs, you know the answer, everyone does and no one has insinuated otherwise here.
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Big_Old_Dog
05-16-2021, 19:04
If conservation land has been bought and paid for by hunters, why isn't it fair that only hunters use that land for a few weeks out of the year.
Never mind. Closed minds, here.
gpburdelljr
05-16-2021, 19:44
If conservation land has been bought and paid for by hunters, why isn't it fair that only hunters use that land for a few weeks out of the year.
Never mind. Closed minds, here.
Taxes on hunting equipment is only one of the sources of tax money for public land, not the sole source.It’s called public land, not hunting public land.
I hunt, and hike, and believe the two can coexist.
Taxes on hunting equipment is only one of the sources of tax money for public land, not the sole source.It’s called public land, not hunting public land.
I hunt, and hike, and believe the two can coexist.
Agree they can coesist. The issue is the hikers do very little for their stake in it. TO be fair I am going to contact the clubs all of them and ask membership numbers. Then we can go from past to present of data. Heres an open question how many on this thread belong to a trail club? How many are members of the ATC? Members of ALDHA? Friends of Baxter? AMC?
Buy your own land, hunt your own property. If you can't afford to then use SHARED public land.
To stomp your feet and declare who "deserves" primary usage of that land is foolish and elitist. Know your target and backdrop and be responsible.
I'll continue hunting my own land and hiking where I am permitted to. The opinion that one deserves that land more than another is ridiculous.
I'm from a hunting family but the views expressed here are embarrassing. Not only missing the point of the thread but going many steps further to disparage hikers.
Dumb, dumb, dumb.
If conservation land has been bought and paid for by hunters, why isn't it fair that only hunters use that land for a few weeks out of the year.
Never mind. Closed minds, here.
I certainly wouldn’t mind that sort of restriction as long as there were still other places always open to hikers. Fact is that hunters bring balance to nature whereas hikers who don’t follow LNT can get things out of balance.
Remember always, balance is good, here included.
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gpburdelljr
05-16-2021, 22:35
I certainly wouldn’t mind that sort of restriction as long as there were still other places always open to hikers. Fact is that hunters bring balance to nature whereas hikers who don’t follow LNT can get things out of balance.
Remember always, balance is good, here included.
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Not all hunters bring balance to nature. There are hunters that don’t follow reasonable rules, just like hikers. Both groups have bad actors.
Not all hunters bring balance to nature. There are hunters that don’t follow reasonable rules, just like hikers. Both groups have bad actors.
I agree with this. Ever see a trashed out hunting camp? Illegally bagged carcass? Equally offensive and irresponsible.
But I thought we began by talking about fools that shoot at anything that moves. We can argue who pays for more rights and which collective is better/worse on the land....
An idiot that shoots a person then gets a backing from fellow hunters saying, "hikers don't belong here" seems to be where we've come to. As said before...SMH.
Uh, guys, we jumped on Hobbs and company for generalizing and now you’re gonna do the same? Really?!?
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Uh, guys, we jumped on Hobbs and company for generalizing and now you’re gonna do the same? Really?!?
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Nah. I'm all done with this one. Please be safe and kind to one another...
Scope Iam not generlizing when I say the trialclub members numbers are way farless than the amount of hikers that hike the trail . I started with that added into hunters pay to play...Give me 5 things hikers do for conservation? The only fee paid is 20 dollars backcountry fee to SMKNP why isnt their a fee at shenandoah? its self registration at the kiosks..Ill even give anyone a chance to answer if their a club member and start scounting on this thread. Guess what Ill get about 2 to 3 people maybe...That yes is a generalization cause I dont even think I d get that But I am willing to listen and I have also when someone posted a article I read it also looked at the sources in the article...So I am not mad just making a point.
What a dumpster fire...
Can we just close this down?
Indeed, give me 5 reasons it should continue, lol.
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Five Tango
05-17-2021, 08:20
Starting a dumpster fire was not my intent so I would like to move for closure.Thanks.
Starting a dumpster fire was not my intent so I would like to move for closure.Thanks.
Not your fault. Could have been a good discussion.
Traveler
05-17-2021, 10:06
Agree they can coesist. The issue is the hikers do very little for their stake in it. TO be fair I am going to contact the clubs all of them and ask membership numbers. Then we can go from past to present of data. Heres an open question how many on this thread belong to a trail club? How many are members of the ATC? Members of ALDHA? Friends of Baxter? AMC?
Like many people in the hiking and backpacking communities, I belong to and support several conservation organizations. Some I support monetarily like the ATC, The Nature Conservancy, and the New England Forestry Foundation, others supported both monetarily and volunteering time/labor to perform trail maintenance like the CFPA, which predates the ATC by several decades and uses donations from members and fund raising events to acquire property for conservation and continue the stewardship program for the 700 or so miles of trails in Connecticut. These organizations represent many millions of dollars in donations and fund raising for grants annually. This would not include State issued "vanity" license plates that support conservation of woodlands and waterways. In CT these plates generate between $250,000 - $290,000 annually for conservation programs.
Businesses also generate a considerable amount of funding for conservation efforts, REI for example funds millions of dollars annually to various projects and in 2020 provided over $6-million to fund 400 non-profits engaged in conservation. Amazon in 2020 shared $10-million to forestry conservation in the Appalachians and other regions of the US. Also, as many in our community do, I pay attention to companies offering funding resources for conservation efforts via matching fund donations, purchase pledges, and matching fund donations. I do not disagree that hunters provide beneficial funding of forests and land conservation efforts through arms and ammunition taxes and licensing fees, though it should be pointed out much of this revenue is used for game restocking, which appear to be linked to public lands closures to non-hunters.
According to some of the data available relative to hunting accidents, the overwhelming percentage of victims in accidental shootings are, themselves, hunters. These incidents have some interesting statistical break downs, the first being these accidents overwhelmingly occur between October and December (basically deer hunting season). The Loder and Farren 2014 study of hunting related incidents over a 15-year period report approximately 56% were gun shot related with the balance of hunting related injuries requiring medical treatment were lacerations and head/arm injuries associated with falling from trees. This is further supported by more recent studies of hunting related injuries that places falling from trees to be just over 50% of the total. Alcohol was an issue in 1.5% of these incidents. Of those injured by firearms, the majority were Caucasian (approximately 92%), male, between 24 and 44 years old.
The evidence suggests a fairly steady, if not predictable, accident rate of hunting related accidents occur to hunters, not passers by like hikers, which appear to be nearly statistically irrelevant in the tables reviewed. Based on this, closure of public lands will/does not result in much, if any reduction of the overall accidental shooting rate of hikers. Though many States do in fact close public lands for hunting activities during the year, given statistical evidence it is difficult to say wether this is done to protect non-hunting persons or to limit the carnage to hunters alone.
I do agree hunters, as part of the larger body of people who support forest and water conservation, do indeed contribute substantially to this funding. However, the notions hunters are the only statistical group providing the bulk of financial support for conservation efforts and closing of public land protects the non-hunting public is not supported by facts.
nsherry61
05-17-2021, 13:58
Agree they can coesist. The issue is the hikers do very little for their stake in it. TO be fair I am going to contact the clubs all of them and ask membership numbers. Then we can go from past to present of data. Heres an open question how many on this thread belong to a trail club? How many are members of the ATC? Members of ALDHA? Friends of Baxter? AMC?
I'm not a member of any trail club. I'm not a joiner type person. But, I do a fair bit of volunteer trail work. I've built and maintained trails in the past that have then been taken over by local organizations or the local town parks department. And, I give regularly and generously (at least in my mind) to conservation organizations including both local and national. I have given more in the past to the Nature Conservancy that any other one group.
Suffice to say that counting trail club members compared to hunting club members is pretty much a pointless exercise if you are trying to quantify the give-back of the different groups. There are plenty of studies looking at actual money spend on conservation by public, private, and non-profit organizations, etc. They look at tax dollars, license fee dollars and non-profit program budgets to name a few. Yes hunters make up a significant part of that money, but also a significant minority of that money. I think fishing actually contributes more than hunting. And all wildlife harvesting money is still less than non-hunting money.
And then, in the end, there is not any good tally for volunteer hours, especially for private efforts. Most of my of hours of trail work are completely under the radar of any bean counter. Heck, I try to keep my trail-work hours under the radar from my wife so she doesn't get mad at me for doing that instead of work around the house.
From me, thank you to all of you hunters, hikers and whoever for any and all your efforts to make our wild lands better!
NOW, quit quibbling on who gives the most.
Give what you can. Share what you can. Take care of your fellow users. And keep valuing our far-to-limited and threatened natural world.
FWIW, ATC gave em $1000k past couple years, just joined AMC. will probably do more down the line. Work about 60 hrs a week, and live a pretty far ways from the trail to volunteer before retiring.
On the plus side tonight I’m prepping for my annual colonoscopy. Fully confident my GI guy knows the difference between a hiker and a polyp, having bagged a few trophy specimens over the years. Whole third of my colon the second hunting trip.
Life’s too short to bitch a whole lot.
4eyedbuzzard
05-17-2021, 23:47
Putting aside all the commentary regarding fees, taxes, land acquisition, who should be where, and what should be fair and, and, even, polyp roping . . .:eek: :D
The shooting occurred at approximately 12:30 pm on Saturday May 8. Hunting was only allowed from 1/2 hour before sunrise until 1:00 PM, and this was the next to last day, Sunday May 9, that spring turkey season would be open anywhere in the state. I used to hunt frequently. Deer, waterfowl, small game, and yeah, even turkey. It sucks to hunt for days and not get anything, but that's often the reality. There's an urge to bag game. It's the prime reason as to why we're out there hunting. If it wasn't, we'd just be hiking around with a camera looking at wildlife. Yes, a bad day hunting is like a bad day fishing - it still beats work - but the point ultimately is to catch the fish or bag the game. We took time off work, spent lots of money and time to do this, and we want something in return. Unfortunately, every year we read about undisciplined, inconsiderate (insert idiot if you wish) hunters who shoot dogs, cows, horses, and even humans -- often any moving unidentified blob -- in their, "I'm hunting so I have to shoot something" mindset. If you don't believe me, go to a popular hunting area on a season's opening day and time and watch the craziness. Several times I've turned around and left places before ever entering the woods because there were too many hyped up hunters just waiting to get out there and shoot . . . something. "But, I thought he was a [insert species in season]." It's pure BS. The truth is they didn't know what they were shooting at. They just wanted to shoot . . . something. But it isn't a hunting accident. A hunting accident is an accidental firearm discharge, a ricochet, an unintended animal or human hit with a missed shot that was honestly unseen behind a legitimate target, etc. "I thought he was a deer" -- or a turkey in this case -- is 100% about being in a mindset to shoot . . . something (remember, season's ending, time is running out!) and not identifying the target before pulling the trigger. Sorry, but all the rest is, to me, irrelevant conversation. There's NEVER, EVER, an excuse for not positively identifying the target before pulling the trigger. [Drop mic]
Five Tango
05-18-2021, 08:02
Well Said Mr Buzzard! One point I would like to make is that a Real hunter makes a clean killing shot so the game animal does not have to suffer unnecessarily. The only way one can do that is to have a clear and doable shot at the game.That's why there should be no excuses for target identification mistakes and there should be some jail time involved for those who just shoot at sound or motion with high hopes that they will come out of that action as the mighty hunter and not someone guilty of manslaughter.That's why I always have some orange on my person whilst in the woods regardless of the season.
44terryberry
06-25-2021, 07:04
I always wear blaze orange whenever I hike during hunting seasons. If not a full vest,at least an orange cap
AsoloBootsSuk
06-25-2021, 09:37
[I]"[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]OK you think its out of line. Then tell me exactly what all every hiker hiking the AT does for conservation?
What matters is that they are outdoorsy and care for the environment and the world. Actual action is no longer required by virtue signaling hikers. Just being concerned is enough
What matters is that they are outdoorsy and care for the environment and the world. Actual action is no longer required by virtue signaling hikers. Just being concerned is enough
One hiker and mother of thru hiker(s) spent millions of her own money to forever preserve land up in Maine, but was reviled by many local sportsman/hunters for doing so.
Which is to say every person is different, and perspectives can vary widely. All one can do is look in the mirror — and perhaps ask whether or not they should leave everything their children?
AsoloBootsSuk
06-25-2021, 12:56
One hiker and mother of thru hiker(s) spent millions of her own money to forever preserve land up in Maine, but was reviled by many local sportsman/hunters for doing so.
Which is to say every person is different, and perspectives can vary widely. All one can do is look in the mirror — and perhaps ask whether or not they should leave everything their children?
I am not familiar with that story. Did she ban hunters?
Traveler
06-26-2021, 08:58
https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/139692-Hiker-Shot-after-being-Mistaken-for-a-Turkey/images/Eloquent/miscgreen/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Traveler https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/139692-Hiker-Shot-after-being-Mistaken-for-a-Turkey/images/Eloquent/buttonsgreen/viewpost-right.png (https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/139692-Hiker-Shot-after-being-Mistaken-for-a-Turkey/showthread.php?p=2285987#post2285987)
[I]"[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]OK you think its out of line. Then tell me exactly what all every hiker hiking the AT does for conservation?
What matters is that they are outdoorsy and care for the environment and the world. Actual action is no longer required by virtue signaling hikers. Just being concerned is enough
Agreed with your post, however your quote attribution is incorrect. The comment you cite and responded to was from Hobbs (post #60), which I responded to in a later post.
AsoloBootsSuk
06-29-2021, 09:20
https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/139692-Hiker-Shot-after-being-Mistaken-for-a-Turkey/images/Eloquent/miscgreen/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Traveler https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/139692-Hiker-Shot-after-being-Mistaken-for-a-Turkey/images/Eloquent/buttonsgreen/viewpost-right.png (https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/139692-Hiker-Shot-after-being-Mistaken-for-a-Turkey/showthread.php?p=2285987#post2285987)
[I]"[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]OK you think its out of line. Then tell me exactly what all every hiker hiking the AT does for conservation?
Agreed with your post, however your quote attribution is incorrect. The comment you cite and responded to was from Hobbs (post #60), which I responded to in a later post.
Sorry, I see know there are some screwy characters in the start of that quote. My fault
sketcher709
07-12-2021, 17:05
Why do conservation areas allow hikers during hunting season. It is an accident waiting to happen. No surprise from me.
Umm because if you can not identify what you are shooting then you should not have a gun to begin with? That being said, why do hikers hike in areas where there is active hunting? Even though most hunters are responsible and careful I've know my share who think its fun time away from the wife to head out to the tree stand with their guns and some beer..
Tuxhiker
07-12-2021, 17:51
I have no place to hike other than 'hunting areas'. Hunting seasons last several months and begins as soon as the weather cools down enough to enjoy hiking. My trails are in national forests. Hunters are supposed to stay 500 ft from the trail, but don't always. I wear lots of orange and greet them with a loud "Hello" as soon as I see or hear them. They have always been very friendly and helpful to me. We coexist just fine, but I am always on alert.