View Full Version : 2000 Miler and Hangtags Reinstated
gpburdelljr
05-20-2021, 18:28
The ATC has resumed recognition of 2000 milers, and is again issuing hangtags.
https://appalachiantrail.org/official-blog/may-11-covid-19-update/
I lost all interest in the ATC when they came out woke.
Lone Wolf
05-20-2021, 22:38
The ATC has resumed recognition of 2000 milers, and is again issuing hangtags.
https://appalachiantrail.org/official-blog/may-11-covid-19-update/
that's fairly special
Big_Old_Dog
05-21-2021, 05:59
Interesting.
About a month ago, ATC told me via e-mail that vaccinated people could spread the virus and that was why they would not recognize it. I guess vaccines got more sciency since then.
No miles hiked after the pause of the 2000 miler program (March 31, 2020) and before the date of this announcement (May 11, 2021) can be counted.
There are to be no exceptions for miles hiked in full compliance with all local, state, agency and federal regulations and guidelines during that period.
Really?
While I can understand the ATC’s decision not to confer an award on those who break the “morals clause” stated on their application form, this blanket disqualification is just dumb.
Time for hikers to reject the award, rather than allow the to ATC to reject them.
It is an anachronism.
BlackCloud
05-21-2021, 07:53
I lost all interest in the ATC when they came out woke.
It's more than that.
Congress designated the ATC as the maintainer/care taker of the trail. COVID in no way hurts the trail, its infrastructure or the animals nearby. Science!
NO ONE authorized the ATC to manage people for the good of The People.
Remember, it is a government of the people, by the people, for the people. The bureaucrats and their self-ordained lackies sometimes forget this, and we need remind them!
Slo-go'en
05-21-2021, 09:49
It's more than that.
Congress designated the ATC as the maintainer/care taker of the trail. COVID in no way hurts the trail, its infrastructure or the animals nearby. Science!
NO ONE authorized the ATC to manage people for the good of The People.
Remember, it is a government of the people, by the people, for the people. The bureaucrats and their self-ordained lackies sometimes forget this, and we need remind them!
Sadly, it's attitudes like this which is why we still have a pandemic and that it has lasted as long as it has.
Majortrauma
05-21-2021, 13:57
Sadly, it's attitudes like this which is why we still have a pandemic and that it has lasted as long as it has.
BlackCloud is 100% correct. ATC grossly exceeded their charter (they never had the authority) by attempting to close the entire AT because of COVID. COVID had no effect on the AT.
And you are so wrong about blackclouds "attitude." You don't have one single piece of evidence/science to back up your accusation against him and others like him.
4eyedbuzzard
05-21-2021, 14:17
https://media0.giphy.com/media/rY6oYt4OaF59C/200.gif?cid=ecf05e472sjpaxchwk59iq2myxc65ber7ela6a uxzfx4tbeu&rid=200.gif
3...2...1...
Slo-go'en
05-21-2021, 15:25
BlackCloud is 100% correct. ATC grossly exceeded their charter (they never had the authority) by attempting to close the entire AT because of COVID. COVID had no effect on the AT.
And you are so wrong about blackclouds "attitude." You don't have one single piece of evidence/science to back up your accusation against him and others like him.
The ATC did not "close" the AT. The NPS and the states did. All the ATC did was stop issuing pack tags, certificates and encouraged people to stay home. COViD had no affect on the AT? Maybe enough people did the right thing and stayed away was a big part of that. If you look at the towns the AT passes through or by, I'm sure you'll see COVID has had an impact on the residents. Your freedom ends when it potentially affects my health. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?
Majortrauma
05-21-2021, 15:51
https://media0.giphy.com/media/rY6oYt4OaF59C/200.gif?cid=ecf05e472sjpaxchwk59iq2myxc65ber7ela6a uxzfx4tbeu&rid=200.gif
3...2...1...
:)I'm surprised alligator let it go on this long :)
slo-go-en is still wrong but I'm going to just leave it at that.
His opinion is in the minority. The ATC is being savagely (and justifiably) ridiculed on a number of hiker forums and youtube channels this NOBO season by people expressing opinions very similar to blackclouds and mine.
Alligator
05-21-2021, 16:30
It's more than that.
Congress designated the ATC as the maintainer/care taker of the trail. COVID in no way hurts the trail, its infrastructure or the animals nearby. Science!
NO ONE authorized the ATC to manage people for the good of The People.
Remember, it is a government of the people, by the people, for the people. The bureaucrats and their self-ordained lackies sometimes forget this, and we need remind them!Your logic is full of holes. The NPS has designated the ATC as the land manager for the trail.
In 1983 the NPS formally delegated management responsibilities to the Appalachian Trail Conference for lands directly administered by the ATPO with the EXCEPTION of the following responsibilities:
Law Enforcement
Special Park Uses
Land Acquisition on behalf of the United States
Boundary Survey
Structure Removal
Removal of Hazardous Materials
Fulfilling Agency Compliance Requirements per Federal Laws and Executive Orders
Notice this does not exclude public health (the health of the population as a whole, especially as the subject of government regulation and support). Multiple states issued legally binding public area restrictions and legally binding travel restrictions, multiple federal agencies including agencies involved with managing the trail also issued Covid-19 restrictions as well as guidance. The ATC chose to not issue hangtags and certificates that they are responsible for in the first place in order to discourage thruhiking in the face of a pandemic, a pandemic that has killed over 600,000 Americans. Land managers have responsibilities to keep the public safe.
The ATC did not "close" the AT. The NPS and the states did. All the ATC did was stop issuing pack tags, certificates and encouraged people to stay home.
This is exactly right.
To my way of thinking it was also appropriate for the ATC to issue its recommendations on the wisdom of hiking during Covid.
Further, as long as they have that “morals clause” in the 2,000 miler application I have no problem with them withholding a certificate whenever an applicant disregards laws and common decency in the quest to complete the trail.
But declaring anyone who hiked during their window of shame to be unworthy is different.
They did this to at least one section hiker who complied with all the rules (in letter and spirit) when he completed his last stretch of the AT this past August.
I am sure there are many such stories.
Solution is simple — the ATC should get out 2,000 Miler game and focus on whatever they are focusing on now.
gpburdelljr
05-21-2021, 17:18
“. a pandemic that has killed over 600,000 Americans…”
Which is more Americans than died in WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, and the Gulf Wars combined.
:)I'm surprised alligator let it go on this long :)
slo-go-en is still wrong but I'm going to just leave it at that.
His opinion is in the minority. The ATC is being savagely (and justifiably) ridiculed on a number of hiker forums and youtube channels this NOBO season by people expressing opinions very similar to blackclouds and mine.
Just because some folks express one opinion doesn’t mean that those who express opposite ones are in the minority. I find the ATC to have been a little sanctimonious, but not at all rising to the level of justified savaging. Perhaps those doing so are a bit savage themselves, an adjective I don’t intend as complimentary.
kolokolo
05-21-2021, 21:51
Just because some folks express one opinion doesn’t mean that those who express opposite ones are in the minority. I find the ATC to have been a little sanctimonious, but not at all rising to the level of justified savaging. Perhaps those doing so are a bit savage themselves, an adjective I don’t intend as complimentary.
I agree with this. I plan to continue to support the ATC, and support their efforts to mitigate the spread of COVID.
Remember, it is a government of the people, by the people, for the people. The bureaucrats and their self-ordained lackies sometimes forget this, and we need remind them!
I bristle at bureaucratic bs too,and I especially hate have to figure out spell bureau when writing by hand. But the framers certainly never intended an of, by and for the peeps government. Because most of us aren’t capable of fulfilling the requisite responsibilities, myself included.
I don't have an issue with the ATC or NPS closing the trail. I get it the were looking at the data that was around from Coronavirus. I also listened to backpacker radio with Andrew Downs of the ATC. I think the 19 mill they got for the pipeliine is fine I was at all the open meetings..The money secured the trail more. I suggest look up that pod cast and listen to it.Pont blank I dont trust politicians as far as I can throw them. I learned that at 19 dealing with them trying to get a photo op. I can actually agree somewhat with Blackcloud...NBUt I would say that the ATC should handle the certificate issue on a case by case As some said there is warrant for some...
I'm confused...are the people that despise and slam the ATC angry because they couldn't get a piece of paper and tag from that same ATC? I could take it or leave it during my good year, 2018. Circumstances being what they were last year I would hope that those simple tokens from the organization, when they had big fish to fry, would seem trivial.
To each their own-I dont donate because i saw examples of frivolous spending (like some mtn clubs) but I NEVER ONCE sensed any kind of overreach in all my time on trail. Print your own certy and Etsy a tag. :D
Then you'll feel like it really happened...friendly sarcasm, dont come swinging.
I think the 19 mill they got for the pipeliine is fine I was at all the open meetings..The money secured the trail more.
I agree - and that podcast you referenced was excellent. I recall that listeners were encouraged to watch closely how the money was spent.
The ATC provided some detail on one round of spending. Whether one finds these projects worthwhile or not, they do show something of a “mission creep” within the ATC — which is part of the reason some object to the ATC’s decisions on tags and certificates.
Anyway, here are some of the places they are spending the pipeline money:
he Community Impact Grant program will support the following organizations and programs:
Giles County ($300,000): Funds will be used to develop the Giles County Trail Center near Mountain Lake, providing an information source for local trails, designated parking and restroom facilities, and access to the A.T., Mountain Lake trails and Bald Knob, the tallest point in Giles County.
Friends of Monroe County ($43,100): Funds will lead to the development and publication of a Monroe County visitor’s guide, and the hiring of two AmeriCorps interns who will assist in historic preservation, capacity building and cultural heritage tourism, which will help boost local outdoor recreation economies.
Roanoke Parks and Recreation ($20,000): Funds will support a year-long Outdoor Adventure Club for underserved urban youth, introducing them to hiking, camping, rock climbing, caving, paddling, skiing and conservation projects; and will provide the bikes, helmets, mobile features and maintenance supplies needed to continue a mountain bike education program for the next five years.
The Humble Hustle Company, Inc ($40,000): Funds will create a new part-time position that will support the Company’s mission to empower black youth and connect diverse communities, engaging youth in the greater Roanoke area in environmental education, activism and environment-based service opportunities.
Wonder Universe: A Children’s Museum ($40,000): Funds will assist in educating children on the flora and fauna found on the Trail, and introduce signage and markers for responsible exploration, A.T. history and lore, and environmental stewardship on the A.T.
Mountain Lake Biological Station ($11,000): Funds will design and construct a publicly accessible, ADA-compliant, all-age appropriate interpretive trail and native plant restoration plot, which will highlight the natural history, land-use history, scientific research, and land management and conservation challenges of the area.
Mountain Castles Soil & Water Conservation District ($16,000): Funds will be used to implement the Plant and Animal Relatives of the Blue Ridge Curriculum Project, which will help teachers demonstrate to students the interconnected web of ecological relationships and to foster a strong connection to place, including on the ancestral lands of the Monacan.
The Mayapple School ($23,000): Funds will expand summer camp programming for 100-120 campers ages 3 to 15, including one overnight backpacking adventure on a section of the A.T
Traveler
05-22-2021, 07:58
:)I'm surprised alligator let it go on this long :)
slo-go-en is still wrong but I'm going to just leave it at that.
His opinion is in the minority. The ATC is being savagely (and justifiably) ridiculed on a number of hiker forums and youtube channels this NOBO season by people expressing opinions very similar to blackclouds and mine.
Popularity of opinion does not make it correct. The ATC acted responsibly in a litigious society, following the NPS directives closing structures on lands not managed by the NPS and suspending programs that would encourage people to act as if nothing was happening and ignore CDC guidelines. That certificates are not available for the past year is a minor inconvenience, unless the point of completing the trail is for the paper saying you did it and not the experience of it, which I gather is all some people are after when it all boils down.
BlackCloud
05-22-2021, 11:09
A land management agency doesn't get to tell people what to do or not do b/c it is bad for the people. It's called LAND management, not PEOPLE management.
So the NPS or ATC or CDC has the power to ban the use of alcohol or cigarettes or soda b/c they are bad for your health? This is precisely the nanny state thinking Mayor Bloomberg introduced in NYC. What if some study finds that hiking with heart disease risks a heart attack? The ATC going to ban people with heart disease from the trail? That is NOT what government in a free society is about.
There is no data or evidence of any kind that recreating in the outdoors spread the virus, no matter how many times some of you try to find some one to blame.
Captain Blue
05-22-2021, 12:09
In the history of the ATC only three executive directors lasted more than two years. We are coming up on the two-year anniversary of the current executive director. I, for one, am hoping for a change.
gpburdelljr
05-22-2021, 14:22
“There is no data or evidence of any kind that recreating in the outdoors spread the virus, no matter how many times some of you try to find some one to blame.”
When the pandemic started they had no idea how it was spread. It’s only recently that they have determined outdoor activity is relatively safe.
In the history of the ATC only three executive directors lasted more than two years. We are coming up on the two-year anniversary of the current executive director. I, for one, am hoping for a change.
At the ATC executive director longevity has been inversely proportionate with compensation.
Captain Blue
05-22-2021, 15:28
At the ATC executive director longevity has been inversely proportionate with compensation.
You probably know more about this than I do. I chatted with an ATC executive director once. He/she told me that 2/3 of their time is spent raising money for the ATC. So, I suspect if the ATC executive director is not achieving fundraising goals they are ousted by the board. But this is just my intuition. Much can be overlooked when a non-profit's executive director brings in the money. And vice versa.
Alligator
05-22-2021, 15:41
A land management agency doesn't get to tell people what to do or not do b/c it is bad for the people. It's called LAND management, not PEOPLE management.
So the NPS or ATC or CDC has the power to ban the use of alcohol or cigarettes or soda b/c they are bad for your health? This is precisely the nanny state thinking Mayor Bloomberg introduced in NYC. What if some study finds that hiking with heart disease risks a heart attack? The ATC going to ban people with heart disease from the trail? That is NOT what government in a free society is about.
There is no data or evidence of any kind that recreating in the outdoors spread the virus, no matter how many times some of you try to find some one to blame.
Let me preface with, we're NOT going to get into the specifics of Covid-19 transmission. Also, don't go the politics route, we're not talking about NYC and alcohol and cigarettes. They're all strawman arguments. Plus that whole black and white, step off the slightest bit to gray and your going right to black is a weak rhetorical argument. People compromise on issues all the time and it doesn't mean issues are going to move any further than where they are in the middle.
Your argument regarding the government not being able to tell people what to do because it is bad for them is a big fail. The USFS, NPS, BLM they can all tell people not to go somewhere on lands they administer because you might get hurt. They can put a gate or seal off an area for that reason. They put bannisters up near unsafe drops it doesn't mean they are going to put bannisters up everywhere. They can place occupancy limits on buildings they administer. They can tell you when quiet hours are in effect in campgrounds. As far as the ATC, they don't have enforcement power for much of anything, looks to be mainly 2000 miler certificates and hangtags. They can make recommendations though on the safe use of the trail, and that would include during a public health emergency. They make recommendations regarding waste elimination, one purpose of privies is to reduce the spread of human diseases.
It would make no sense for the ATC to act as if there wasn't a pandemic going on and to encourage people to thruhike. This follows from the simple argument that you can take a vacation at home and interact with less people than you would on a thruhike. They recommended that people don't do it and they didn't issue hangtags and won't recognize miles hiked during a certain period of the pandemic. They were concerned about saving lives, in case you forgot, 600,000 Americans have died, and people are vilifying them over paper? I'm sorry for those aspiring thruhikers that had their dreams crushed and decided to follow the ATC's guidelines. I could be wrong, but didn't the ATC also say they were not going to recognize section hike miles upfront? I can understand if they didn't say that originally and a hiker was completely self-sufficient and they were unhappy about a retroactive policy change. Perspective-wise though, I have to say it's more of a first world problem to not get the paper you want from the organization that recommended you not do it in the first place. In India for example people aren't getting enough oxygen and a good portion of the world doesn't have access to vaccines yet.
TwoSpirits
05-22-2021, 16:09
If I recall correctly, the PCT was also "closed" last year by its managing entity -- even before the ATC made its own announcement about the AT. Now admittedly I don't get out much and I'm wrong about a lot of things, but it seems to me that when it comes to the PCT, I haven't heard anything close to the angry complaints and vitriol directed towards the ATC. I'm curious as to why? Because the ATC is considered to be a "bureaucratic lackie" whilst the PCTA is not? Or is it because of hang tags and recognition certificates? Genuinely curious.
Or is it because of hang tags and recognition certificates? Genuinely curious.
The ATC has decreed that no miles hiked between 3/31/20 and 5/11/21 can EVER count towards a 2,000 miler certificate.
Importantly, this decree holds whether or not those miles were hiked in accordance with best covid practices or not.
This strikes some as heavy handed.
No doubt even some at the ATC, given how they are having a 2021 NOBO (March start) participate in a high profile ATC virtual celebration.
But I expect the real reason is more complicated, and has as much to do with the ATC’s ever expanding mission, whatever that may be.
The AT needs political support, so they have to play some politics. Some of that looks like mission creep, perhaps it is. But I think the idea is to build more advocates over time. I find some of the identity sensitivity tiresome sometimes but all in all I support it.
I agree - and that podcast you referenced was excellent. I recall that listeners were encouraged to watch closely how the money was spent.
The ATC provided some detail on one round of spending. Whether one finds these projects worthwhile or not, they do show something of a “mission creep” within the ATC — which is part of the reason some object to the ATC’s decisions on tags and certificates.
Anyway, here are some of the places they are spending the pipeline money:
he Community Impact Grant program will support the following organizations and programs:
Giles County ($300,000): Funds will be used to develop the Giles County Trail Center near Mountain Lake, providing an information source for local trails, designated parking and restroom facilities, and access to the A.T., Mountain Lake trails and Bald Knob, the tallest point in Giles County.
Friends of Monroe County ($43,100): Funds will lead to the development and publication of a Monroe County visitor’s guide, and the hiring of two AmeriCorps interns who will assist in historic preservation, capacity building and cultural heritage tourism, which will help boost local outdoor recreation economies.
Roanoke Parks and Recreation ($20,000): Funds will support a year-long Outdoor Adventure Club for underserved urban youth, introducing them to hiking, camping, rock climbing, caving, paddling, skiing and conservation projects; and will provide the bikes, helmets, mobile features and maintenance supplies needed to continue a mountain bike education program for the next five years.
The Humble Hustle Company, Inc ($40,000): Funds will create a new part-time position that will support the Company’s mission to empower black youth and connect diverse communities, engaging youth in the greater Roanoke area in environmental education, activism and environment-based service opportunities.
Wonder Universe: A Children’s Museum ($40,000): Funds will assist in educating children on the flora and fauna found on the Trail, and introduce signage and markers for responsible exploration, A.T. history and lore, and environmental stewardship on the A.T.
Mountain Lake Biological Station ($11,000): Funds will design and construct a publicly accessible, ADA-compliant, all-age appropriate interpretive trail and native plant restoration plot, which will highlight the natural history, land-use history, scientific research, and land management and conservation challenges of the area.
Mountain Castles Soil & Water Conservation District ($16,000): Funds will be used to implement the Plant and Animal Relatives of the Blue Ridge Curriculum Project, which will help teachers demonstrate to students the interconnected web of ecological relationships and to foster a strong connection to place, including on the ancestral lands of the Monacan.
The Mayapple School ($23,000): Funds will expand summer camp programming for 100-120 campers ages 3 to 15, including one overnight backpacking adventure on a section of the A.T
Exactly as you put it,.Theyre mad and say they have all this money and dont think or do anything for the hiker community. Thats what I hear on social media..But I know that took it away form the issue a little but this is where the ATC can come in like you said certain hikers have special circumstances where each should be looked at by case by case.
Lone Wolf
05-23-2021, 07:31
The ATC has resumed recognition of 2000 milers, and is again issuing hangtags.
https://appalachiantrail.org/official-blog/may-11-covid-19-update/
whoppie doo!
Furlough
05-23-2021, 12:11
I have zero issue with Federal Government and State Governments directed closure of Federal and State Properties, and then providing further guidance on social distancing and the use of masks. Both of which were common sense guidance. The ATC, from my perspective did the right thing in terms of also providing directive action and guidance to reflect that of Federal and State authorities directives and guidance in terms of trail closures. I am not a fan of their retroactive non-recognition of 2000 milers regardless of the means or timing of how they attained that feat.Furlough