Another explanation for food bags being taken by bears?

[ldsailor]

So, I have been reading all the posts about food bags being taken. Even those that have been properly hung are falling victim. Ursacks are being shredded as the bears try to get what's inside, and even some food bags protected by supposedly "odor proof" bags have been taken. I've read about this not only here but on various Facebook groups for many of the long distance trails here in the USA.

Then I read about all the hikers who sleep with their food. This seems most prevalent with PCT hikers, but many hikers along the Colorado Trail, which I hiked last year, also are sleeping with their food. Few if any of these hikers sleeping with their food report problems.

This has all got me to thinking. We talk about the great sense of smell bears have, but maybe there is something else going on here. Is it possible the bears are visually associating hanging bags from trees as a food source and not necessarily depending on smell? That would seem to support those hikers who profess that the best way to protect their food is to sleep with it.

Just something to think about. Comments?

[PatmanTN]

yeah for sure, I live close to the Smokies and the park service has long used cheap test tents with motion activated game cameras to monitor aggressive behavior. I've seen the test tents get ripped to shreds with nothing in them and in most cases the tents have never had anything in them

[Gambit McCrae]

I believe that food kept in a food bag "scent proof" and kept in tent while sleeping is OK. Its what I have done forever. Unless bear cables are available or a bear box then I use it. But if you have a snickers bar in your pocket, it voids this comment. I believe that the bear still smells me and my foods presence, but my scent outweighs his curiosity. I believe this because I routinely hear bear activity outside my tent.... Heavy breathing, shadows in the moonlight, brushing up against my tent etc...not squirrels hopping around in the leaves.

Now where this sleeping with my food is going to get me in trouble is when I come across a bear where he chooses to investigate my food source over being steered away by my scent. A problem bear.

[BlackCloud]

Keeping your food in your tent may very well lower the chances of a bear taking your food but would seem to greatly increase your chances of having a direct encounter with a foraging bear.

[martinb]

A "camp" bear will investigate anything in the campsite. I've had a half-full platypus reservoir, left hanging on a nearby branch, ripped open by one of these bears overnight. As for hanging, I gave that up several years ago after a bear got my bag (hung PCT) and use a bear can. I sleep a lot easier.

[Slo-go'en]

I seem to remember reading bears have fairly poor eyesight. Spotting a bag in a tree in the dark is a stretch. Some bears in the ADK's learned to sniff out the rope holding the bag and deal with that first. Smell could lead them to the general area which food is hung, then by poking around could find the rope and break it, either on purpose or by accident. Also, you might think you have your food hung properly, but this is rarely the case.

[Tipi Walter]

Humans are walking cheese sticks to a bear black or otherwise. Thinking we should hang our food bags when we have a lb of food in our stomachs after dinner as we sleep in a tent is strange metrics. A predatory bear will eat a human no matter if the hiker is sleeping or hiking. And who hangs their food when actually hiking? Can't a bear smell the food inside our stomachs? How do we hang our stomachs?

Random gear destruction by bears is gonna happen because they live in the woods and it is their home. Trailposts, tents, packs, boots, cars---anything human made and left in the woods may get torn apart.

On Thanksgiving Day I woke up to a "love bite" from a black bear in my Hilleberg tent. Oops---didn't take any of my 40 lbs of food though.

48326
Luckily low on the perimeter.

48327
Bear Vault chewed.

48328
Thermarest Prolite chewed.

48329
Another Thermy eaten.

[Colter]

"Is it possible the bears are visually associating hanging bags from trees as a food source and not necessarily depending on smell?" I have no doubt that is happening sometimes.

"I've seen the test tents get ripped to shreds with nothing in them and in most cases the tents have never had anything in them." Seen it myself. Bears will routinely investigate anything of interest. They are dramatically less likely to mess with human-occupied tents.

[PatmanTN]

I seem to remember reading bears have fairly poor eyesight. Spotting a bag in a tree in the dark is a stretch. Some bears in the ADK's learned to sniff out the rope holding the bag and deal with that first. Smell could lead them to the general area which food is hung, then by poking around could find the rope and break it, either on purpose or by accident. Also, you might think you have your food hung properly, but this is rarely the case.


Interesting. I was just reading that bears having poor eyesight is a myth. The below isn't where I saw that but I got a lot google results with a similar take when trying to find the article I was remembering.

https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.view_article&articles_id=135

[PatmanTN]

Hey Colter, were you on the current season of Alone?

[PatmanTN]

Never mind I see you added it to your sig. I just started watching.

[Odd Man Out]

This is why many parks state that food and ice chests in your car must be out of sight because bears will break into cars if they see the food. An empty ice chest out in the open will attract beats.

[HooKooDooKu]

You have to carefully consider where you are when you decide what food storage method you are going to use. It's one thing to be at some random spot along the AT or PCT and sleep with your food if a bear encounter is low probability.
But then there are other places ... specifically Great Smoky Mountains... where the relative people and bear population is more concentrated and more bear encounter likely.
So far, if you hang your food front the cables provided at every GSMNP back country camp site, the only method I've heard about with bears defeating the cables are those that have learned if they shake the cables, the bag my bounce off. Otherwise I've not been hearing stories of the bears defeating the bear cables. But every season, almost like clock work, camps sites get closed down due to bear activity, and the reason has NOT been because everyone has been properly storing their food on the bear cables. Instead, people are taking alternative actions that allows bears access to human food. The bears learn to associate people and their gear (typically back packs) as a food source and then once they loose their fear of the humans, they become a problem bear. But if everyone followed park rule and never left food unattended, except when hung on bear cables, we wouldn't be getting campsite closed due to bear activity.

[Odd Man Out]

The OP has applied the "sleep with your food" rationale that has been around for years and discussed on every hiking forum ad nauseum. As Dr Tom Smith (one of the top bear biologists) puts it, the bear's desire to avoid you is greater than its desire to get your food. Bears thus learn the best ways to get unattended food (bags hanging from trees). Bears who go after tents have learned to do this from people who leave unattended food in tents. The use of visual visual cues by bears is confirmed by the use of bear canisters. Canisters reek of food odors, but once a bear learns they can't get in them, they leave them alone. People who sleep with food are teaching bears that tents are not a place to find unattended food. In an email conversation I had with Dr Smith several years ago, he confirmed that these hypotheses are consistent with bear biology. However this model has never been tested. That would require some agency to require people to keep all food in their possession at all times (with 100% compliance). However it is likely that no one will ever do this experiment, so we are stuck with multiple valid conclusions that are consistent with the data. Ultimately, Dr Smith said that while he knows bear biologists who use the "sleep with food" strategy, he does not and instead advocates for other methods of backcountry food storage, including canisters and electric fences (yes there are lightweight fencing options for backcountry use but I don't know of anyone who uses them).

[Colter]

Hey Colter, were you on the current season of Alone?
Hi Patman, I did that "Alone Across Alaska" trip in my signature, but haven't appeared on the series Alone. I've heard it's good?

[GoldenBear]

I seem to remember reading bears have fairly poor eyesightYou heard wrong.

https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.view_article&articles_id=135

[PatmanTN]

Hi Patman, I did that "Alone Across Alaska" trip in my signature, but haven't appeared on the series Alone. I've heard it's good?

Oh ok, There is guy from Alaska name Colter on this season and based on posts I've read from you in the past it seemed possible that it was you! Yes it's good TV in my opinion. :)

[Majortrauma]

Great reply Tipi!! I also choose to not hang my food. Seems pointless for same reasons Tipi states and there is no way one can remove all the smells from your pack, garments etc. Bears can smell damn near anything on us. Their sense of smell is appa


While the sensitivity of a bear’s nose would lead us to think they should be able to smell you from miles away (and they often can) wind direction could make it easy for you to accidentally ambush an otherwise occupied bear.
Your scent is essentially a vaporized chemical floating in the air. For a bear to smell you, they must make contact with the mucus membrane of their nose. The chemicals could be far away if you’re downwind from a bear on a breezy day. Be sure to think about this when hiking, and make extra noise on windy days.

[Majortrauma]

Accidentally hit send button :datz
Great reply Tipi!! I also choose to not hang my food. Seems pointless for same reasons Tipi states and there is no way one can remove all the smells from your pack, garments etc. Bears can smell damn near anything on us. Their sense of smell is apparently 100 times better than a dog.
"Your scent is essentially a vaporized chemical floating in the air. For a bear to smell you, they must make contact with the mucus membrane of their nose. The chemicals could be far away if you’re downwind from a bear on a breezy day."

For this reason I began spraying a small dot of bear spray on trees on the perimeter of our camp site. My logic is that they will smell the bear spray from a long way off, which is highly offensive to them, and NOT smell any of our food.
It's a little tricky though making sure we're all not downwind of it when I spray it. So far it's worked as planned. No bears at all and this includes multiple trips in Monongahela Natl Forest.

[Alligator]

So, I have been reading all the posts about food bags being taken. Even those that have been properly hung are falling victim. Ursacks are being shredded as the bears try to get what's inside, and even some food bags protected by supposedly "odor proof" bags have been taken. I've read about this not only here but on various Facebook groups for many of the long distance trails here in the USA.

Then I read about all the hikers who sleep with their food. This seems most prevalent with PCT hikers, but many hikers along the Colorado Trail, which I hiked last year, also are sleeping with their food. Few if any of these hikers sleeping with their food report problems.

This has all got me to thinking. We talk about the great sense of smell bears have, but maybe there is something else going on here. Is it possible the bears are visually associating hanging bags from trees as a food source and not necessarily depending on smell? That would seem to support those hikers who profess that the best way to protect their food is to sleep with it.

Just something to think about. Comments?While I don't discount the possibility that bears may associate a hanging food bag with food strictly on sight alone, I would lean strongly towards the bear has seen and smelled an ordinary food bag hanging previously. I also think it likely they can smell food odors on the outside of an odorproof sack such as residual cooking or food handling by the bag owner. Or even on the rope used to hang it, as I doubt any hiker washes their hands every time prior to handling the bag.

[GoldenBear]

the bear spray from a long way off, which is highly offensive to them
This is plain wrong. Bear spray is NOT a repellent, it's an irritant. In the same way that chili powder makes bland food SMELL better but is NOT something you'd want in your eyes, the red pepper oil in bear spray might SMELL quite good to a bear, but spraying it into their eyes and noses will definitely cause them terrible (but temporary) pain. That's why
https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/species/livingwithwildlife/bears/pdfs/bear_spray_what_you_should_know.pdf
states, "DO NOT PRE-SPRAY OBJECTS. Bear spray does not work like an insect repellent. If used this way, it may actually attract a bear because of the residue’s strong odor."
and why
https://bebearaware.org/deploying-bear-spray
states, " Never spray yourself, your clothing, or your tent - doing so could actually attract a bear to the scent"

[BlackCloud]

A Yellowstone ranger told me that every year they have a couple of people dial 911 after they sprayed themselves and/or their gear with bear repellent thinking it worked like DEET. Once dried, the peppers in the spray become sweet and attract not only bears but all manner of scavengers.

[TwoSpirits]

And who hangs their food when actually hiking?

Love this. Although I don't presume to "know" any perfect right answer (nor would I trust one), I do have to say that I've thought about this particular point quite a bit. We always hear about bears making their bold & brazen food raids at night; we don't hear about bears taking down food bags during the day -- when they're simply hanging from a hiker's back.

[Odd Man Out]

When explaining why bear spray repels bears but the residue attracts them, Tom Smith says "I like to drink milkshakes, but I don't like to have them sprayed up my nose."

[Seatbelt]

Love this. Although I don't presume to "know" any perfect right answer (nor would I trust one), I do have to say that I've thought about this particular point quite a bit. We always hear about bears making their bold & brazen food raids at night; we don't hear about bears taking down food bags during the day -- when they're simply hanging from a hiker's back.
I personally know a man who was thru-hiking the AT and -- he stopped to take a break, got out his gorp and while eating it, was hit in the back and knocked over. He turned around to see a bear running off with his bag of gorp.

[Majortrauma]

:-? Thanks GoldenBear. Good gouge. Based on that information and my additional "research" it appears that my plan is indeed flawed.
I'll still carry the bear spray with my 9mm as back up.

[martinb]

https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/139939-FS-Issues-Warning-about-Black-Bears-in-Joyce-Kilmer-Slickrock-Wilderness

This is yet another series of incidences caused by improper food storage (keeping food in tents or unattended). The bear(s) involved are now "trained" to look for unattended food left by hikers. Until this bear(s) are relocated, even the most experienced hikers, who do not hang or can their food at all times, are at risk. Along with the bear(s) involved.

[TwoSpirits]

I personally know a man who was thru-hiking the AT and -- he stopped to take a break, got out his gorp and while eating it, was hit in the back and knocked over. He turned around to see a bear running off with his bag of gorp.Wow. Just...wow.

[BlackCloud]

I personally know a man who was thru-hiking the AT and -- he stopped to take a break, got out his gorp and while eating it, was hit in the back and knocked over. He turned around to see a bear running off with his bag of gorp.
In No. Cascades NP I had a mouse pull a similar stunt. As I sat in the woods eating my GORP, nowhere near a shelter or campsite mind you, I heard something so I turned to see a mouse eating out of my GORP bag about 1' away.

[PatmanTN]

In No. Cascades NP I had a mouse pull a similar stunt. As I sat in the woods eating my GORP, nowhere near a shelter or campsite mind you, I heard something so I turned to see a mouse eating out of my GORP bag about 1' away.

Dang BlackCloud, I was eagerly awaiting the part where the mouse knocked you over the head. Still a good story. :)

[Dogwood]

The onus of separating wildlife and humans is on humanity not wildlife since after all humans are supposedly the most intelligent species on Earth.

[Dogwood]

This comes down to not fences or more extinctions but knowledable responsible human behavior. Humans are not the only Earthlings. We must share the planet.

[carouselambra]

That reminds me of a quote I heard from a Yosemite ranger earlier this year when discussing the storage of food in the park and the need to use bear boxes, etc. The quote was along the lines of "The margin of intelligence between the dumbest human and the smartest bear is small".

[fastfoxengineering]

Dispersed camping is my favorite means of protecting bears and my food.

[smkymtns]

"The margin of intelligence between the dumbest human and the smartest bear is small".

As demonstrated by this incident in the Smokies last week...

https://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/local/2021/06/08/cades-cove-visitor-cited-feeding-peanut-butter-bear-great-smoky-mountains/7591441002/

In lieu of a fine, I suggest they cover her body in peanut butter and make her spend the night in the back country. [emoji1787]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[BlackCloud]

When asked why it is hard to design the perfect garbage bin to keep bears away, the ranger supposedly said "There is considerable overlap between the intelligence of the smartest bears and the dumbest tourists."

[theinfamousj]

Love this. Although I don't presume to "know" any perfect right answer (nor would I trust one), I do have to say that I've thought about this particular point quite a bit. We always hear about bears making their bold & brazen food raids at night; we don't hear about bears taking down food bags during the day -- when they're simply hanging from a hiker's back.When I was much younger I helped our at a black bear rehab. There, I was told that the black bears in our charge had a law of possession: that which is nearer me is mine, that which is nearer you is yours.

Any famished bear will disregard this in order to live.

But I found it mostly true. When we tried to get a cabbage to the bears to eat we had to bowl it more than halfway to our well fed rehab bears. Or had to leave it and walk very, very far away.

But is it best practice to rely on this social norm of some bears? No way. I hang my food every time. But also, I don't sleep the X00 feet away from my hanging food. It is nearest to me so it is mine to a well fed bear. And for a famished bear it is far enough away that they eat the food and not my face. Also, I am only ever in black bear territory.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[rmitchell]

Another factor that I have not seen mentioned is the habit of some hikers of burning trash is fire pits and shelter fireplaces. Frequently there is partially burned foil from tuna packets' and freeze dried meals in the ashes of fire rings. No doubt this attracts bears and other scavengers to the campsites.

Also a problem is that people throw leftover food and other non compostable items into the composting privies. I have seen damage to the bins where bears have attempted to tear into them to access the food residue and garbage. Evidently the smell of the poo is not enough to deter bears from trying to get to the food scraps.

[DralaHiker]

This just in via a friend that just did Dicks Creek Gap to Winding Stair Gap. Lots of bear activity from Carter's Gap shelter to Betty's Creek Gap. Hiker reports: 2 diff. groups had PCT hangs - bear climbed tree, then leaped to catch the food bag - total loss. Two diff. instances of BV500 bear cans being opened. Hiker with Bear Vault lockable lid caused bear to abandon trying. One Ursak well tied to a tree, bear crushed contents but bag survived, covered in bear slobber. My take: more people on trails, more food for bears and thus more agressive getting food.

[BradMT]

The OP has applied the "sleep with your food" rationale that has been around for years and discussed on every hiking forum ad nauseum. As Dr Tom Smith (one of the top bear biologists) puts it, the bear's desire to avoid you is greater than its desire to get your food. Bears thus learn the best ways to get unattended food (bags hanging from trees). Bears who go after tents have learned to do this from people who leave unattended food in tents. The use of visual visual cues by bears is confirmed by the use of bear canisters. Canisters reek of food odors, but once a bear learns they can't get in them, they leave them alone. People who sleep with food are teaching bears that tents are not a place to find unattended food. In an email conversation I had with Dr Smith several years ago, he confirmed that these hypotheses are consistent with bear biology. However this model has never been tested. That would require some agency to require people to keep all food in their possession at all times (with 100% compliance). However it is likely that no one will ever do this experiment, so we are stuck with multiple valid conclusions that are consistent with the data. Ultimately, Dr Smith said that while he knows bear biologists who use the "sleep with food" strategy, he does not and instead advocates for other methods of backcountry food storage, including canisters and electric fences (yes there are lightweight fencing options for backcountry use but I don't know of anyone who uses them).

An informative post, thanks.

All my backpacking is in Grizzly (and Black Bear) country here in the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem. My method is to hang food and keep a clean camp, and I doubt I'll ever sleep with food. I've never had a problem, but I also don't backpack inside the National Park where the odds of finding a more habituated bear are probably higher.

[Odd Man Out]

An informative post, thanks.
All my backpacking is in Grizzly (and Black Bear) country here in the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem. My method is to hang food and keep a clean camp, and I doubt I'll ever sleep with food. I've never had a problem, but I also don't backpack inside the National Park where the odds of finding a more habituated bear are probably higher.

Thanks Brad. Re-reading my previous post, I see that I failed to indicate that in the e-mail discussion I referred to, we were specifically discussing east coast US black bears. I should have pointed that out. Clearly, Grizzlies are a whole different story.

[DralaHiker]

This just in via a friend that just did Dicks Creek Gap to Winding Stair Gap. Lots of bear activity from Carter's Gap shelter to Betty's Creek Gap. Hiker reports: 2 diff. groups had PCT hangs - bear climbed tree, then leaped to catch the food bag - total loss. Two diff. instances of BV500 bear cans being opened. Hiker with Bear Vault lockable lid caused bear to abandon trying. One Ursak well tied to a tree, bear crushed contents but bag survived, covered in bear slobber. My take: more people on trails, more food for bears and thus more agressive getting food.

[Five Tango]

I would like to see the bear that opened the BV500.If one were to cover the tabs with duct tape,I wonder if he could still defeat it.

[Alligator]

This just in via a friend that just did Dicks Creek Gap to Winding Stair Gap. Lots of bear activity from Carter's Gap shelter to Betty's Creek Gap. Hiker reports: 2 diff. groups had PCT hangs - bear climbed tree, then leaped to catch the food bag - total loss. Two diff. instances of BV500 bear cans being opened. Hiker with Bear Vault lockable lid caused bear to abandon trying. One Ursak well tied to a tree, bear crushed contents but bag survived, covered in bear slobber. My take: more people on trails, more food for bears and thus more agressive getting food.I am not discounting the account but wonder if the 2 groups fully implemented their PCT hangs, at least 12' high and 6' from the trunk. Hikers may just be thinking the tie-off part is the whole method. People in general poorly estimate height in the woods as well, I think perhaps due to the extensive variability of tree size from place to place. It can be helpful to mark your line at 5 or 10 ft intervals to gauge height of the bag. Also to know how far your arms stretch when fully horizontal.

[Wavey]

Thanks. Good post.

[Wavey]

Nice thought. I think ill give it a try.

[No Match]

Thanks Brad. Re-reading my previous post, I see that I failed to indicate that in the e-mail discussion I referred to, we were specifically discussing east coast US black bears. I should have pointed that out. Clearly, Grizzlies are a whole different story.


47 years of backpacking, bears dive off of trees to get the food bag, bears chew thru the limb to weaken the limb or just chew it off(8 inch Post Oak in the Cohuttas), bears stand on each others shoulders, mice chewing threw Western Mountaineering and Feathered Friends sleeping bags to get you snickers, Power Bar or food bag, a water bottle got took last week at Cosby Knob Shelter in the Great Smokies, was sitting outside the vestibule, not recovered, bear cansiters can be rolled 3/4 of a mile away-uphill in the Sierras, cansiters get thrown over cliffs so they bust in the river below spewing the contents, bear jerking the hang cable last week enough to break the ring it was clipped into, okay, its late, I'm stopping, if you haven't experienced anything like this, spend more time on the trail, its a great classroom. I pack my BV450 in the morning for the next trip, and I now always carry a canister, seeing how well the Ursack SHREDS and the razor teeth of the infamous mouse just goes right thru Dyneema. Oh, and a Ursack rope was chewed thru on the Tahoe Rim Trail in November, bag gone, dude bailed the trail, no choice. Love my canister collection, NPS wants them madatory on the entire AT, they are quietly fighting that battle now.

[Starchild]

Since bears seem generally unwilling to try to take food directly from a person or person occupied tent, what if an electronic noisemaker was added to the food bag, or in tests unoccupied tents. Perhaps even nearby on a motion sensor, emitting some random noises every so often but also more noises if movement was detected. Wonder if that would help.

[JNI64]

Since bears seem generally unwilling to try to take food directly from a person or person occupied tent, what if an electronic noisemaker was added to the food bag, or in tests unoccupied tents. Perhaps even nearby on a motion sensor, emitting some random noises every so often but also more noises if movement was detected. Wonder if that would help.

Yeah you might be on to something. I think there's too many variables for the motion sensor. But I don't know why there couldn't be a small pad or whatever in the bag ursack and when it feels pressure emits a alarm. Or a sensor that Hangs on your tent when it feels severe shaking emits an alarm.

[JNI64]

Second thought a motion sensor might be nice on a tent or tarp that emits noise and light for anything that comes around you in the middle of the night.

[jeffmeh]

Second thought a motion sensor might be nice on a tent or tarp that emits noise and light for anything that comes around you in the middle of the night.

If it could only trigger when what comes around exceeds 100 lbs or so, you might have something, lol.

[JNI64]

If it could only trigger when what comes around exceeds 100 lbs or so, you might have something, lol.

Or set up for anything that comes within 10' I don't want anything around me that close when I'm sleeping .

[jeffmeh]

Or set up for anything that comes within 10' I don't want anything around me that close when I'm sleeping .
I would prefer not to be awakened by every harmless critter that wanders by throughout the night. I don't think one would be very popular with any others camping in the area if the chipmunks, squirrels, mice, opossums, etc. are active. :)

[JNI64]

It might even stop deer and other animals coming in and chewing the salt off your trekking poles and such. Or an unwanted human.

[JNI64]

This would probably be more practical solo camping

[RockDoc]

If you sleep with your food, it's prudent to choose low-odor dehydrated food, and then pack it all in food saver vacuum or multiple ziplock bags.

[No Match]

If you sleep with your food, it's prudent to choose low-odor dehydrated food, and then pack it all in food saver vacuum or multiple ziplock bags.
When packing my food bag or canister, I purposely chose low-odor, dehydrated foods as well. I have the odor-proof Coglans food bags(Amazon) that fit my Garcia canister perfectly and use the hound out of my FoodSaver. Its just what you do in bear country. Also, it is ILLEGAL to bring or store(under your head) food in a shelter on NPS properties but a common practice for the thruhikers. I don't have the link, but there is a great YouTube vid of various meat items in an enclosure where bears are being studied. Tuna is the ultimate bait as the bears bypass steaks & bacon to find the tuna can. This says alot. And for those who are good citizens that follow the rules, I find it quiet offensive when the thru's stick it under their head in a shelter in the Smokies or other NPS properties. We all sign the Backcountry Permit before it is issued. Thats called a contract. And bears are continuing to rip down/open hung backpacks at the shelter openings. No food required, just what their doing. In the end, its up to you. Many thanks to all those who contributed to this lead posting, we have a wonderful and wealthy pool of knowledge that benefits us all, thats what makes WhiteBlaze a special place, and the best AT Wilderness Library ever!

[HooKooDooKu]

Since bears seem generally unwilling to try to take food directly from a person...
Once again, depends upon where you are.
If you are in an area where bears seldom come in contact with people, the odds are higher that they still fear humans and generally won't approach them.
Other places, the bears are getting used to people and learning they are not a threat. You can't scare them off and you certain do NOT want to be sleeping with your food in bear country where bears are getting habituated to humans.

[Odd Man Out]

Once again, depends upon where you are.
If you are in an area where bears seldom come in contact with people, the odds are higher that they still fear humans and generally won't approach them.
Other places, the bears are getting used to people and learning they are not a threat. You can't scare them off and you certain do NOT want to be sleeping with your food in bear country where bears are getting habituated to humans.

The North American Bear Center has a great web page with science-based information on bears, with an emphasis on black bears. Check out this page from their Myths and Misconceptions sections about why human-habituated bears are NOT more likely to attack humans.

https://bear.org/myth-when-bears-lose-their-fear-of-people-they-become-more-likely-to-attack/

[Seatbelt]

The North American Bear Center has a great web page with science-based information on bears, with an emphasis on black bears. Check out this page from their Myths and Misconceptions sections about why human-habituated bears are NOT more likely to attack humans.

https://bear.org/myth-when-bears-lose-their-fear-of-people-they-become-more-likely-to-attack/

I didn't see it in the article but I wonder if they studied bears who were starving hungry and a human was holding or sleeping with food to see if they would attack?

[HooKooDooKu]

The North American Bear Center has a great web page with science-based information on bears, with an emphasis on black bears. Check out this page from their Myths and Misconceptions sections about why human-habituated bears are NOT more likely to attack humans.

https://bear.org/myth-when-bears-lose-their-fear-of-people-they-become-more-likely-to-attack/
I never said the bears accustom to humans are more likely to "attack". After all, habituated to humans or not, bears want the same thing... easy access to food.
When they become habituated to your presence, it becomes more difficult (if not impossible) to drive them away.

So if you sleep with your food in an area populated with bears habituated to humans, your odds of either loosing your food, or getting injured while a bear tries to get your food goes up.

[Tipi Walter]

If a backpacker is really paranoid about bear activity he/she could carry this 3.1 lb kit---along with a bunch of AA batteries.

https://www.bearwatchsystems.com/

48911

[JNI64]

If a backpacker is really paranoid about bear activity he/she could carry this 3.1 lb kit---along with a bunch of AA batteries.

https://www.bearwatchsystems.com/

48911

Knowing me I would forget I put it up and go out in the middle of the night and pee on it and electrocute myself. Than the bear will come along and eat everything, including me!

[appstate_mj]

Hi all. I have enjoyed reading this thread and have gathered some good information from it.

I have a question that we will be obvious to many of you, but I have never used a bear canister. I am planning to get one for my upcoming section hike in May. Some places I will be staying do not have cables or boxes or poles; some part in the area I am going requires bear canisters.

My question is, HOW do you use it at night? As in where you do put it? It seems from what I have read that you go the recommended distance from where you are sleeping and just put it on the ground and leave it? Is that correct?

This seems odd to me. It seems to me that this would be an easy way to lose your food; as in a bear or other animal could come and mess with it at night and roll it who knows where.

Thanks for the answers to a very obvious sounding question; but I want to use it correctly as it will not do me any good to get it if I do not know the proper way to use it. Thanks, MJ

[Montana]

Hi all. I have enjoyed reading this thread and have gathered some good information from it.

I have a question that we will be obvious to many of you, but I have never used a bear canister. I am planning to get one for my upcoming section hike in May. Some places I will be staying do not have cables or boxes or poles; some part in the area I am going requires bear canisters.

My question is, HOW do you use it at night? As in where you do put it? It seems from what I have read that you go the recommended distance from where you are sleeping and just put it on the ground and leave it? Is that correct?

This seems odd to me. It seems to me that this would be an easy way to lose your food; as in a bear or other animal could come and mess with it at night and roll it who knows where.

Thanks for the answers to a very obvious sounding question; but I want to use it correctly as it will not do me any good to get it if I do not know the proper way to use it. Thanks, MJ


Find a spot about 100 yards from your camp and leave the canister on the ground. If possible, find a depression and leave the canister at the bottom so that a bear has to make it roll uphill. Lacking a depression, find a large flat area. Don't place it at the top of a hill! Do not tie the canister down, this could give purchase to the bear and allow it to break into the canister. If you own the canister (rather than renting it), you might want to paint some bright colors on it to aid in locating it in the morning.

[No Match]

I didn't see it in the article but I wonder if they studied bears who were starving hungry and a human was holding or sleeping with food to see if they would attack?
I never forget that the man killed & dismembered/eaten at BC 82 in the Smokies was number 69 killed by black bears in the US. Cananda is MUCH higher. Never forget. History is amazing at proving what people turn to when 'they' get hungry. What do you think a hungry black bear will do? You can't ask the guy at BC 82.

[Odd Man Out]

...you go the recommended distance from where you are sleeping and just put it on the ground and leave it? Is that correct? This seems odd to me. It seems to me that this would be an easy way to lose your food; as in a bear or other animal could come and mess with it at night and roll it who knows where.

I think the answer is in the original post in this thread, which was that bears use visual cues and intelligence in addition to smell. Where canisters are used by everyone, bears learn that they can't open them so leave them alone.

[Five Tango]

Find a spot about 100 yards from your camp and leave the canister on the ground. If possible, find a depression and leave the canister at the bottom so that a bear has to make it roll uphill. Lacking a depression, find a large flat area. Don't place it at the top of a hill! Do not tie the canister down, this could give purchase to the bear and allow it to break into the canister. If you own the canister (rather than renting it), you might want to paint some bright colors on it to aid in locating it in the morning.

I put reflective tape on mine which makes it like a lighthouse in the wee hours of the morning.From past experience it serves as a really comfortable but heavy stool which also keeps out weather,rodents,and other creatures.

[HooKooDooKu]

Find a spot about 100 yards from your camp and leave the canister on the ground. If possible, find a depression and leave the canister at the bottom so that a bear has to make it roll uphill. Lacking a depression, find a large flat area. Don't place it at the top of a hill! Do not tie the canister down, this could give purchase to the bear and allow it to break into the canister. If you own the canister (rather than renting it), you might want to paint some bright colors on it to aid in locating it in the morning.
100 yards is a bit extreme.

Instructions from National Parks web sites tend to be very conservative, yet the website for Yosemite National Park (where bear canisters are REQUIRED) says "25 to 50 feet away from your campsite".

The general idea is that you simply need a "safe" distance from the bear while the bear tries to figure how to get into the canister (and hopefully fails).
Actually, the hope for areas where bears and bear canisters are common is that the bears will learn they can't get into the canisters and simply leave them alone the next time they see them.

Rather than placing the canister far away, some people like to keep it close by and place things like rocks or cook pots on top of the canister.
The idea is that if a bear starts to mess with it in the middle of the night, the noise will wake you up and you have a chance to try to scare the bear off.

Otherwise, everything Montana describes is spot on.

Here's a link to the Yosemite National Park website with instructions for bear canisters.
https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/bearcanisters.htm

[FollowMrMuir]

Ahhhhh, nothing says "sweet wilderness" like surrounding your tent with an electric fence.

[martinb]

Hi all. I have enjoyed reading this thread and have gathered some good information from it.

I have a question that we will be obvious to many of you, but I have never used a bear canister. I am planning to get one for my upcoming section hike in May. Some places I will be staying do not have cables or boxes or poles; some part in the area I am going requires bear canisters.

My question is, HOW do you use it at night? As in where you do put it? It seems from what I have read that you go the recommended distance from where you are sleeping and just put it on the ground and leave it? Is that correct?

This seems odd to me. It seems to me that this would be an easy way to lose your food; as in a bear or other animal could come and mess with it at night and roll it who knows where.

Thanks for the answers to a very obvious sounding question; but I want to use it correctly as it will not do me any good to get it if I do not know the proper way to use it. Thanks, MJ

I place my bareboxer no more than around 50' from my tent in heavy bushes/scrub/etc. If something tries to mess with it during the night, it will make noise and then my headlamp lights it up. FYI, the bareboxer/garcia is designed to minimize straight rolling with tapered ends. I've had one bear try to get in mine and it only went about 10 or so feet from where I placed it.

[cmoulder]

I place my bareboxer no more than around 50' from my tent in heavy bushes/scrub/etc. If something tries to mess with it during the night, it will make noise and then my headlamp lights it up. FYI, the bareboxer/garcia is designed to minimize straight rolling with tapered ends. I've had one bear try to get in mine and it only went about 10 or so feet from where I placed it.

Also a good idea to put some of the 3M reflective tape on it.

[peakbagger]

Electric fences around campsites in polar bear territory is pretty well standard these days. Even with an electric fence, a guy from Maine got pulled out of a tent a few years ago.

A friend went to lecture by a couple who kayaked Alaskas entire coast. Some of the areas they paddled had very high bear populations. Their approach was pick an area with several small islands. Cook on one island, store the food and all cooking clothing on another and sleep in completely separate outfit on a third island. Everything was packed in separate dry bags.

[sketcher709]

My question is, HOW do you use it at night? As in where you do put it? It seems from what I have read that you go the recommended distance from where you are sleeping and just put it on the ground and leave it? Is that correct?

This seems odd to me. It seems to me that this would be an easy way to lose your food; as in a bear or other animal could come and mess with it at night and roll it who knows where.


Well, if you are unlucky enough you might have to look for it for a while. That's why you don't set it close to any large drop off's where you might see it but not be able to retrieve it.

I put a tile gps tracker in mine. I doubt it would be accurate enough to be useful but eh you never know. I notice when I look at the tile location from my house sometimes my phone places it across the street or various places on my property. So, it is definitely not going to lead me right to it but at least I'll have the psychological benefit of knowing its still in the neighborhood. I have considered taping it on the outside of the canister so that I would be able to hear the audible alert but one would have to be pretty close by to hear it....maybe I'll look to see if there is one with a with a louder alert....

[HankIV]

Used an Ursack this past season on AT thru. Wasn’t tested, at least by bears. Used opsacks, but I’m sure there was food smell on Ursack. I can’t image mice didn’t try it a few times.

Did use bear boxes and cables if the were available.

[GlitterHiker]

Second thought a motion sensor might be nice on a tent or tarp that emits noise and light for anything that comes around you in the middle of the night.

A few years ago, I stayed 10 nights at an AirBnb "cabin" on property adjacent to the Blue Ridge Parkway in Asheville, NC. The owner had a motion sensor on the "cabin", set for larger animals (i.e. bears), not the chipmunks, squirrels, etc. I don't know the range of the sensor, but that sucker went off every 45 minutes. The brightest light would fill the "cabin"; I barely got any sleep during my visit. (Ended up napping during the day & having to reduce my hiking time ...)

[PatmanTN]

The ATC Sweat crews often use electric fences in the GSMP, usually around the group cook area (never seen them use one big enough to put tents inside). Though, to be honest, they have told me that sometimes a bear gets past them anyway (happened at the Cosby Knob crew camp just south of the shelter, back in 2010 as I recall). But in my experience, the Cosby bears are educated, acclimated to people, and persistent. That was the first place I ever saw a bear raise up and shake the cables to try and get food bags to fall off.

[HooKooDooKu]

The ATC Sweat crews often use electric fences in the GSMP, usually around the group cook area (never seen them use one big enough to put tents inside). Though, to be honest, they have told me that sometimes a bear gets past them anyway (happened at the Cosby Knob crew camp just south of the shelter, back in 2010 as I recall). But in my experience, the Cosby bears are educated, acclimated to people, and persistent. That was the first place I ever saw a bear raise up and shake the cables to try and get food bags to fall off.
Came across a crew along the Deep Creek trail that had most of an entire Camp site cordoned off with those electric fences. Was sort of a surprise to see a bunch of weed whackers hanging from the bear cables.
I've been warned about bears shaking the bear cables, so my food bag is attached to the bear cables with a carabiner clipped to the loop rather than just hanging by the hooks. But I've yet to witness a bear shaking the cables.
But Cosby Knob has been the campsite I've had the most "in camp" bear encounters in GSMNP.