View Full Version : Alky stoves in the cold
Streamweaver
03-31-2006, 11:39
http://www.ultimateiditarod.com/trupdates/12-31-01.htm
I just thought Id post this in case anybody wonders if alcohol stoves are ok for winter use. Theres a good article on this subject floating around but I cant find it yet.Granted the stoves these mushers use are alot bigger than ours but other wise they are the same.Scroll down almost to the middle of the page for a photo on the right.
mindlessmariachi
03-31-2006, 13:15
interesting - but i can tell you from experience that the tincan stoves hikers use in the summer make for a pretty lousy winter camping stove. i've tried mine in the winter, probably around 0 to 10 degrees, and it took a lot of fuel and time to really cook anything. granted i was in a semi-exposed area, and it might've worked better in a confined shelter or something, but for my purposes, my store-bought stove is a better bet for the winter.
Two Speed
03-31-2006, 13:31
[QUOTE=Streamweaver. . .Granted the stoves these mushers use are alot bigger than ours but other wise they are the same. . .[/QUOTE]Makes me wonder about the construction, etc. The beast in that photo didn't look "ultralight" by any means.
For true winter camping (below 15F) and high altitude mountaineering
, white gas stoves are still the champ for these operations. Winter camping/mountaineering involves LOTS of melting of snow for water. The other stoves, beisdes not working well in cold weather, require more fuel for the same amount of operations.
Dog sledding may have a bit more logisitcal support where carrying extra fuel is not as much an issue. But, I honestly don't know.
Hey, finished my rough guide to stove use article:
http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=58&Itemid=33
Think it is pretty balanced look. Sure others will disagree. :D
Two Speed
03-31-2006, 14:36
For true winter camping (below 15F) and high altitude mountaineering, white gas stoves are still the champ for these operations. . . Yeah, for backpackers and climbers I understand that to be true, but I've seen references to mushers using alcohol fired stoves before and I'm curious how they get those monster to work. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it seems to me that the higher vapor pressure from white gas would make it easier to work with in extreme cold.
. . .Think it is pretty balanced look. Sure others will disagree. :DOh, you can bet your last dollar someone won't agree. Heck, I'll beat the rush and disagree without even reading what you've got going.:p
All kidding around aside, I plan on taking a look at that over the weekend. I'll go ahead and thank you for something to occupy my mind when taking breaks from doing my taxes.
Yeah, for backpackers and climbers I understand that to be true, but I've seen references to mushers using alcohol fired stoves before and I'm curious how they get those monster to work. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it seems to me that the higher vapor pressure from white gas would make it easier to work with in extreme cold.
A thought also occured to me as well. Dog mushers probably have custom built stoves of the DIY type. There are probably more gen. outdoor users (hiker/climbers/bicyclists/etc.) who use a personal camp stove.
I imagine dog mushers have to boil HUGE amounts of water tofeed not only themselves, but also their dogs. It probably requires a huge stove. I wonder how much a white gas stove would weight that cooks/boils water for a musher and what, 8 dogs? Man! So maybe the alchie stove is lighter for dog mushing over all? And there is probably no dog mushing white gas stoves as REI. I honestly don't know though. (about the big stoves..I am pretty sure REI does not stock stoves for large scale dog mushing! :D)
Maybe there is a dogmushing.com site? :)
Oh, you can bet your last dollar someone won't agree. Heck, I'll beat the rush and disagree without even reading what you've got going.:p
Cool! That's what I like about WB..quick results! :)
minnesotasmith
03-31-2006, 15:28
I've used them with no major issues down into what was probably the high teens Farenheit (Smokies, natch). WIND appears to be more an issue with increased fuel use than are low temps; that, and attempting to ring an excessive volume of water to a boil.
I've used them with no major issues down into what was probably the high teens Farenheit (Smokies, natch). WIND appears to be more an issue with increased fuel use than are low temps; that, and attempting to ring an excessive volume of water to a boil.
Ditto. My wife and I regularly use our Trangia burner in the low teens. Getting the stove started takes longer, yes, but I haven't been able to measure an appreciable difference in alcohol consumed by weight. A good windscreen is very important in the winter. A store bought stove (i.e. white gas or cannister) will always be more efficient, winter or summer, in terms of fuel used. But in the cold, when you're already carrying more weight in extra clothing, sleeping bag etc., it's nice to be able to save the ounces where you can.
The only time we have really considered our alcohol stove a liability is when you get close to hypothermia. There have been times when I really wished we had something hot to put in us faster than what the Trangia could provide. For safety reasons, not cooking ability, we may switch over in the future to a white gas or cannister stove. As long as we are warm and dry in winter conditions the alky burner is fine. But if you start getting cold and/or wet waiting three to four times as long to get hot water can be hazardous to your health.
Two Speed
04-01-2006, 08:39
For the record:
1) I use a Trangia, and am very pleased with it. Rugged, efficient and reliable. For anyone who prefers a JetBoil, Pocket Rocket, Whisperlite, Peak 1, SVEA 123, Zip Stove or microwave oven, no problem here. HYOH and I'll do the same.
2) I have also used an alcohol stove down into the teens, and havent' had that many issues. Little slower, some difficulty lighting, but certainly not a failure to perform. On the stove's part, anyway.:rolleyes:
3) The Trangia was, and may still be issued to the Swedish army. I'm not sure, but I suspect the Swedes may know a thing or two about cold weather.:p
4) The original post includes a link to a photo of a "cooker" used by dog sledders in Alaska. Obviously the mushers have to melt snow for water and heat a pretty large volume of water for food, etc.
I'm curious about the design and operation of these devices, performance, etc. I know that gasoline has a higher vapor pressure than any alcohol that I'm aware of and I'd like to know how the mushers deal with lighting that monster in sub-zero conditions. Obviously the mushers don't have the same weight constraints as backpackers, but the consequences of failure are much more severe when compared to what the average AT hiker is going to deal with should the hiker's stove fail.
Short version: the mushers are dealing with a pretty severe problem. There may be hints for us hikers if we pay attention. Anyone have any specific information on those cookers? I've tried a couple of searches on the web and haven't found diddly squat.
For the record:
2) I have also used an alcohol stove down into the teens, and havent' had that many issues. Little slower, some difficulty lighting, but certainly not a failure to perform. On the stove's part, anyway.:rolleyes:
3) The Trangia was, and may still be issued to the Swedish army. I'm not sure, but I suspect the Swedes may know a thing or two about cold weather.:p
Hmm..but teens are at what I call the "raw edge" of three season hiking. I would not want to use an alcohol stove for true winter camping.
http://www.pmags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=11337&g2_page=8
http://www.pmags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=11557&g2_page=8
(Of course, I'm wimping out now-a-days. :D Hut trips are where it is at me for me nowadays. I use a propane stove/oven to make pasta carbonara, steamed spinach with olive oil and lemon and some wine. Sit by the fire with hot chocolate and schnaps. Following morning do some more cross country skiing! )
Melting snow for backpacking/mountaineering would be a nightmare with a tin can type stove. Besides not fuel efficient, it would be slow as molasses! Metling snow is the real reason why white gas stoves are better in winter/mountaineering.
NOTE: Canister stoves also suffer from this problem, too.
As for the Swedish Army, suspect they may have more logistic support than the average backpacker. :) ie. Not doing a lot of snow melting!
Having said that, I'd be curious as to the stove setup the mushers use. Again, I thiink a whitegas stove for melting a large amount of snow for dogs would be incredibly huge and weighty..and expensive. But, that's just a guess.
FWIW: I use an alchy stove most of the time