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pslates
01-09-2022, 17:54
I would like to do the presidential traverse this summer and look to fly to the region and then take a bus to the area. I read of concord bus from logan airport but see it only seems to go to Pinkham notch arriving at 8:10 pm so I wonder where to spend the night as inexpensive as possible and then the next morning taking the amc bus to Appalachia.

does the concord bus go anywhere else in the region closer to a camping area or would be staying at Joe dodge the only option

peakbagger
01-09-2022, 18:19
Assuming Covid is not impacting things again, just take the same bus to Gorham. The least cost is the "Barn" hostel at the Libby House Inn. The AMC shuttle leaves Pinkham and then heads north to Gorham before heading west to Appalachia. They officially stop at the Gorham information both across the town commons (park) from the Barn or the Irving Gas Station a few blocks west on Main street. Be careful when looking for flights, Boston is the best option, the concord bus to Pinkham does not stop at the Manchester airport.

FYI, if you are planning to do the traditional one day traverse,most folks start around 4:30 AM in the dark to catch sunrise and time it around the summer solstice to maximize daylight. FYI you legally can camp 1/4 of a mile in from the road on most trails along RT 16 or RT 2 (including Appalachia). If you are doing a multi-day traverse its less of an issue. The standard caveat for a one day traverse is unless you are in excellent condition and used to near continuous rockhopping, plan on a bail out as its highly unlikely you will not do it in a day. In many cases, folks only make it half way and there are zero lodging options near the cog base station.

pslates
01-09-2022, 18:35
Sorry after I posted this I read of the bus going further north to Gotham. Are you saying the hostel is a short walk from the bus stop. Do there happen to be any other places to spend the night cheaply within walking distance. I need to read more of Gotham.

I am looking to do the hike over three days and will be turning 60 this year but do lots of backpacking and bike packing each year and walk to work each day with a short adventure each weekend.

i am a tent camper but it looks like staying at the AMC huts would be the simplist and quite interesting.

peakbagger
01-09-2022, 18:59
The official Concord bus stop in Gorham is at the Irving Station, generally the Concord bus drivers will drop riders off along the side of the road (if its safe). So if you want to stay at the Barn its 10 to 15 minute walk from the Irving Station (unless the driver lets you off early, if you want a motel room there are several local motels closer to the Irving station. There are also some Air B&Bs spread around town. AMC stops at the Irving in the AM as well as the Gorham Information Booth. FYi, not many quick earluy breakfast options in Gorham beyond White moutnain Cafe and Mc Donalds located inconveniently about halfway between the Barn and Irving. There is a large hikers Hostel in Shelburne but its in the wrong direction and a long walk from the where the bus will drop you off.

Try to avoid weekends in Gorham, weekends are very busy in town with ATV traffic and guests. Most motels will charge for two or three days on a weekend. FYI, there is a major train track that runs parallel to Main Street in Gorham. Every motel is going to have a late night wakeup call in the middle of the night by a train running through town.

The huts book up early and they are not cheap. Very convenient but the spacing is set up for a casual hiker. The hike up from Appalachia is at best 3 hours to Madison Hut. That is good as the next day from Madison Hut to Lakes is 6 to 8 hours of rockhopping, add in an extra hour or two if you want to do the summit blue blazes (the AT skips Adams Jefferson Monroe and Eisenhower). Its spectacular on na ice day but exposed as heck on a nice day. The next days hike from Lakes to Crawford Notch is also exposed for 2/3rd of the day but a bit less rock hopping.

pslates
01-09-2022, 19:14
Thanks for all the info. It is all totally new to me. I have not flown for about twenty years and never been to the area. I looked to drive but about 12 hours from my home which I would do in two days and that would be extremely boring and complicated following the route for me. Unfortunately plan to come by myself which is another reason to at least spend the night around others on a very popular route. I got a lot of info from section Hiker website.

regarding Covid I have been vexed three times and to my knowledge never had it and no one knows what it may be like in the future but I have debated waiting a year because of that and allowing even more planning.

I even debate doing a guided small group 3 day trip of the same route but so far see one and two day. I walk and bike over a thousand miles each year on solo drives and trips but will most likely slow going up the mountains and am not a racer and like a slow but continuous pace

pslates
01-09-2022, 19:31
Concerning huts being able to find a campsite sounds very risky to me. I would prefer a campsite one night and possibly a hut the other night but I am use to backpacking mainly in off seasons and in not as popular areas so that is why simply being able to get a tent site sounds complex there. Am I wrong. Would you recommend any.

On what I would call standard mountain trails I usually do at least 15 miles a day and am in the lightweight pack range and hike most of the day and start looking for a campsite about an hour or so before dark.

peakbagger
01-09-2022, 20:59
Legal Camping along the presidential ridge is a problem. The section you are considering is officially all above treeline from Madison to Eisenhower. So you need to drop off the AT typically 1 mile and 1000 feet of elevation. The only legal campsite is the Valley Way Tentsite below Madison Hut (very busy) and the RMC Perch campsite also very busy and also quite a bit off the AT. I have posted photos of the legal unofficial "campsites" off of the Jewell trail (i mile and 1000 feet elevation loss off the AT. The Ammonunsuc Ravine Trail near Lake of the Clouds (AKA lake of the crowds) is no camping almost to the base of the mountain so not an option. Edmonds Path used to have some campng spots but most got ruined by blowdown several years ago so its long way down before you hit somewhat open woods. Lake of the Clouds is the toughest hut to avoid so I would shoot for a night there. The Perch is doable from Appalachia on the first day for a strong hiker, but it will be long haul for many. So Perch, then Lakes then another long day out to the Highland center. You can camp out in the woods just short of the Highland Center the last night if money is tight. Getting back to Boston is going to eat up a day. There is only one bus that leaves Gorham NH in the early AM to go to Boston and it leaves too early to connect up with ride from Highland Center in Crawfords Notch. So you end up catching a shuttle to Gorham or Pinkham the day after your hike and staying one more night in Gorham before you catch the bus to Boston in the AM. BTW Pinkham does normally have a lower cost bunkroom option at Joe Dodge Lodge but I think it was limited to related groups due to covid last year.

With respect to Covid, RMCs facilities were closed most of the summer and AMC operated at least part of the season with restrictions on occupancy. Who knows what they will be doing this summer? Unless you sleep wearing a full face Hepa respirator the bunkrooms at Lakes are prime places to catch Covid as is the very cramped eating area. At full occupancy there is no social distancing int he huts unless they keep the occupancy very low.


There is nothing like the whites along the AT, although the rock parts of the AT in PA are similar but the rocks are much bigger. Many thruhikers cut their daily mileage in half. Until you hike it, you really cant prepare for it.

pslates
01-10-2022, 08:44
Yes Covid is one reason I debate doing this at all this year. I do not fear it but obviously even after being vaxed it may not be good. I am use to mainly driving by myself and hiking and camping mainly by myself and just passing others every now and then during the day outside on the trails. This is why even being on an airplane or bus to get there and back would not be my favorite even with no pandemic but the trip there would be very educational for future trips. Last October I did an AT section around Damascus VA and had a shuttle with just the driver and later spent one night with one hiker and the owner at a Hostel but I drove there. I did two weekend cycling trips with a group of friends and staying at a hotel each night and ate in the hotel cafeteria but I am mainly the only camper so that has been my largest group activity and just two of us in a room for the night.

I never thought of doing this until about mid last year as a way to celebrate my 60th birthday. I am interested in doing the full AT and other long trails in retirement so possibly I should just wait.

All this does make me wonder of coming via plane and bus but instead doing some other form of hike where I would most likely be able to tent camp like the Pemi loop or day hikes up to various mountains and camping in the valley. I don't think I would care to drive because for me I would probably prefer to do one way in three days and that would be a better retirement trip to take my time and see other things along the way.

I greatly appreciate all the info you have provided and I would welcome any other trails to take in the area especially loops that are easily bus accessible or if you know of any guided routes with the spending the night somewhere included in a small group. I also debate just looking for other more local areas instead where I would drive and spend the night by myself.

Slo-go'en
01-10-2022, 10:03
You can do half Presidential traverses by taking the Auto road hiker shuttle to the summit of Washington (9 AM) and hiking north or south from there. South you can camp at the Neuman tent site, then in the morning hike down to the AMC Highland center and take the AMC shuttle back to the Auto road. Not a scheduled stop, but they will stop on request. You can do the same thing going north, but that's a much longer and harder day to make it to a legal campsite (Osgood in the Great Gulf).

Another option is the AT between Franconia and Crawford notch is easily done with one or two overnights using the AMC shuttle between.

There are a number of FS campsites which can be used a base camp and doing day hikes. Pretty much every peak is accessible as a day hike, which is how most people hike in the Whites due to the limited number of designated tent sites. There are a lot of restricted camping areas in the Whites. The steep terrain, rocky ground and dense understory makes camping along trails pretty much impossible, even where it is legal.

peakbagger
01-10-2022, 11:59
Logistically Slo-go'ens approach is not much more complicated than doing it as a full backpack. Trail Angels in Berlin https://www.trailangelshikerservices.com/ offers shuttles out of the Berlin Gorham area. What you spend on one night at a hut will just about equal shuttle costs and rides up Mt Washington. The key thing to remember is hiking on the presidential ridge anytime of the year is a crapshot. On a nice day its hard to beat but on a nasty day its dangerous or possibly life threatening. With a backpack you are committed. By breaking it up into two long day hikes you can pick your days. The clouds and weather usually build up over the course of the day from the top down so there is lot to be said for an early morning start from the summit. Ideally you plan on a rest day between the two day hikes as few weekend hikers will be in shape to do two days in row.

illabelle
01-10-2022, 13:08
Logistically Slo-go'ens approach is not much more complicated than doing it as a full backpack. Trail Angels in Berlin https://www.trailangelshikerservices.com/ offers shuttles out of the Berlin Gorham area. What you spend on one night at a hut will just about equal shuttle costs and rides up Mt Washington. The key thing to remember is hiking on the presidential ridge anytime of the year is a crapshot. On a nice day its hard to beat but on a nasty day its dangerous or possibly life threatening. With a backpack you are committed. By breaking it up into two long day hikes you can pick your days. The clouds and weather usually build up over the course of the day from the top down so there is lot to be said for an early morning start from the summit. Ideally you plan on a rest day between the two day hikes as few weekend hikers will be in shape to do two days in row.
When we went through the Presidentials (very slow hut-to-hut SOBO section early July 2016), we were greeted at Madison by a crew member urging us to NOT continue on to Mt Washington the next day. Wind speeds were in the 70-80 mph range. We met one man who had traveled from Mt Washington that day who said the wind pinned him to the ground three times. We went down to Appalachia the next morning, caught a cab, then went up Ammonusuc Ravine to stay on our itinerary and not lose our reservations.

And that was just wind.

pslates
01-10-2022, 13:57
I wonder if there are any good websites or books that would be a good source of doing day hikes up some of the mountains while returning to the valley for camping. I see AMC's Best Day Hikes in the White Mountains and Falcon Guides Hiking the White Mountains. I would love to experience at least some of the presidential range especially Washington even if it involved a different trail each day and needing to shuttle the next day for something different and a different campsite. It would obviously not be good if I planned only one day to be able to get to Washington and there was a storm that day so being in the area for multiple days with an option do do whatever that day would be the best.

peakbagger
01-10-2022, 18:25
The AMC White Mountain guide is the "bible" of white moutain hiking and comes with paper maps. The issue with the presidential traverse is it skirts two wilderness areas that are decidedly steep and primitive. The great gulf wilderness has some options to base camp and day hike but the day hikes are very steep. Definitely not first hike in the whites sort of hikes. The hikes on the west side of the ridge are far less aggressive but hard to string together multiple days.

Slo-go'en
01-10-2022, 18:25
Washington can be done as a day hike, several routes to choose from. Being able to pick the day out of a 3 - 4 day window is the trick. In the summer, the summit is often in a cloud come afternoon due to the humidity.

The AMC White Mountain guide is your definitive source of info. It has lists of trails by level of difficulty for each area of interest, estimated hiking times and detailed trail descriptions and of course the maps.

pslates
01-10-2022, 19:05
I have that book and printed and computer maps

thanks

pslates
01-13-2022, 12:13
Anyone have any thoughts on renting a car at Logan Airport and driving to the area. Looks to be much quicker but much more expensive than taking the bus but would a rental car have advantages visiting the area other than an earlier arrival.

peakbagger
01-13-2022, 15:34
Yes, a rental car make things a lot quicker. In this case fly into Manchester NH or Portland Maine (Portland is slightly closer to Mt Washington than Manchester but the drive up is on state highway versus an interstate from Manchester and skip the nightmare of driving through Boston.

Slo-go'en
01-13-2022, 17:50
Having a car available would make doing day hikes a lot easier. There are 48, 4,000 footers and 58 peaks under 4K with a view to choose from. Base camping at one of the many campgrounds and doing day hikes lets you cover a lot more ground and see a lot more views then a linear hike would, given the limited places that can be done.

peakbagger
01-13-2022, 19:32
For example. an in shape hiker can fly up on Sunday AM rent a car, than drive up to North Conway NH and then up through Crawford Notch and up to Jefferson NH. Using google maps or equivalent find the Valley road and then the north end of Jefferson Notch road, then car camp along the north end of Jefferson Notch road. These are not official sites, but seem to be tolerated by the national forest staff, just pull over at spots along the road before the high spot of the road Early next AM head south up over the highest public road in NH then down to the Base Station road, take a left and head up the Base Station road, then park at the Ammonusuc Ravine/Jewell Trail Lot. Self pay for a parking pass) then hike up the Jewell Trail to the AT (Gulfside Trail) then south on the AT up to Mt Washington, then south on the AT (Crawford Path) to Lake of the Clouds, then down the Ammonusuc Ravine Trail and back to the parking lot. The next day think about a day off or a short day. The third day if its during a weekend day head over to Franconia Notch very early (plan to arrive around sunrise) and park at the Lafayette Place parking lot. Then hike up the Old Bridal Path to Greenleaf hut, fill up you water bottles then hike up Lafayette to the AT (Franconia Ridge Trail) then south on the AT along the Franconia Ridge to the Haystack. Then down Falling Water Trails. About half way down the trail crosses and follows along a series of waterfalls then eventually head back to where you started. Both hikes have to be hiked on good days as they are exposed by someone in shape. Car camp a last night at Lafayette Place campground (reservations and fee) then head back over the Kancamangus Highway back to Portland or head south on I 93 to Manchester. Catch a late flight home. If you have extra days a hike up Mt Adams via the Airline from Appalachia down the Madson Hut with an optional hike to Mt Madison and then back down the Valley way to Appalachia gets you to another much different view of the Great Gulf and Mt Washington.

pslates
01-14-2022, 15:08
Thanks for the info. By the way what are the details of a place with self pay for parking. Do they only take cash and do they simply trust you to leave the correct amount in an envelope you place in a container or is there also some form of electronic card reader or both options. Can prices vary per location and can you give me an example of the cost.

I have not flown for about twenty years and it was to Boston where with my wife we rented a car and drove to Cape Cod. I do not remember anything from the airport or drive but I would prefer the shortest drive to the area and least amount of big city driving and wondered about flying to Manchester.

peakbagger
01-14-2022, 16:17
Types of Passes on the White Mountain NF
Annual Pass
Valid 1 year from date of purchase
Cost: $30.00
Annual Household Pass
Valid 1 year from date of purchase
Cost: $40.00
Daily Pass
Valid for 1 day, specified at time of purchase
Cost: $5.00
In addition to the White Mountain National Forest passes, additional nation-wide passes are recognized on the Forest. Holders of the Interagency, Golden Age, or Golden Access passes are not required to purchase a White Mountain pass.

So for a short trip if you are using a lot that requires a pass, its $5 a day. You put $5 cash in s special envelope that is filled in with your info and license plate number (bring a pen) , that is placed in a locked pipe with slot on the top. There is tear off receipt that you place on your dash. If and when the ranger comes to check that day they will match up the envelopes with the cars in the lot and write tickets. Its only a few of the major parking lots that require a fee. Usually its the lots that access an AMC hut. There are state owned lots that do not require a fee. Appalachia in Randolph and Lafayette Place in Franconia Notch are currently free although Lafyette Place is beng considered for one.

Compared to Boston both Manchester and Portland are far less intimidating. IMHO Portland is the least intimidating as long as you have smart phone with nav ap to get you out of town onto RT 113 or RT 302 which are nice drives through the country. Logan in Boston will have more connections and possibly better deals but getting from Logan to 93 during the 3 hour rush hour in the AM or the 3 hour rush hour at night is intimidating. The highways are in tunnels where most smart phone mapping programs do not work. Lots of traffic with cars merging in and out and if you are in the wrong lane at the wrong time you may end up being forced out the wrong exit. IMHO Worth the extra bucks for Manchester or Portland. Both are a lot less stressful.

Slo-go'en
01-15-2022, 00:13
Also note that parking lots fill up early in the morning. By 7AM the popular trailheads are full and spilling out onto the highway (in the few places that is allowed). Weekends are especially bad. Weekdays are not so bad, but you still need to show up early. July is typically a very busy month.

peakbagger
01-15-2022, 07:23
The early bird definitely gets the worm for parking. The locals have figured it out and 7 Am is the former 8 Am, I am shooting to be at the popular tralheads at 6:30AM or sunrise.

BTW, the other optional fee to consider is a NH Hike Safe Card. Unlike most other states, NH bills state incurred costs for rescues. Even though the rescue crews are usually made up of volunteers, there are usually state employees who run the rescue and they will bill their overtime costs to rescue. The big cost is helicopter time, the state national guard may be available to do search and rescue and may bill it as training time, but they may not. This could be in the thousands if the state decides a private helicopter is needed. Accidents are rare based on usage and it would be really hard to get lost on popular trails so most out of state hikers just roll the dice and do not buy one.

https://wildlife.state.nh.us/safe/

pslates
01-19-2022, 16:13
I am still trying to decided what month might be best regarding best weather and not as many people and still not totally decided on a 3 day traverse or spending a week in the area doing different day trips and some overnight trips, which is sounding best. I can come anytime. I would love to spend at least one night in lake of the clouds hut just for the experience and tent camp at a site at least once in a secluded area but also open to camping in a valley at an official site right next to my car or even car camping in a remote area. I have done all forms of that before many times. I read of the best time of year to hike the whites being between memorial day and Columbus day. I want to avoid holidays and weekends to somewhat limit the crowds but are there any less crowded warm months such as possibly early September when some schools have started and less family vacations. Is the area just so popular it is like being in a city.

Is there a month that commonly has the most AT thru hikers.

Sorry if I ask too many question but it is all new to me and I have the AMC Guide and various maps and read of details on the section hiker website and was told by Philip of that site it would be best to rent a car instead of the bus system.

peakbagger
01-19-2022, 19:32
AT thru hikers are kind of a minority in the whites, far more day hikers and short run backpackers. It is mobbed from July on (early June can be buggy. Hard to beat September, family vacations are over as the kids are back in school, NOBOs has better be through the area and SOBOs are long since past heading south. My pick of the week is usually the week after labor day week so this year the week of Sept 11th to the 18th is my shot at the dart board. Head up later and you get the earlu leaf peepers who do no not realize that they are two weeks early. The whites are effectively in Massachusetts back yard so its busy on weekends through and including Columbus day. See what reservations you can get at Lakes and plan around it avoiding the weekends if possible. The only down side with September is on rare occasions getting less rare is hurricane remnants heading up the East coast and soaking the area.

pslates
01-19-2022, 21:55
Do you feel I am concentrating too much on a night at the clouds hut. I read of the best time to be on mt Washington to be early morning because of weather and before the cog and road is open for less people and better view and getting there after a night at the clouds hut sounds like a good idea and then possibly going into a valley for tent camping the next night.

The day hikes mentioned on this all seem very interesting. When staying at a campground in the valley can some gear be left at the site safely like a tent setup while being away for hours during the day and then returning to spend another night.

HankIV
01-19-2022, 22:28
I can’t speak to the travel logistics as I thru hiked this summer, but I did one unusual and indulgent thing for a thru hiker. I booked huts for most of the Whites. The food was great as was the conviviality. Yes they aren’t cheap, but someone else lugs the food and it is almost certainly better food than you’d lug yourself. And the huts are right one the trail. It is a beautiful part of the country. Whatever time you go, bring a rain jacket and pants. Can’t imagine a poncho in what I experienced.

jeffmeh
01-20-2022, 07:43
If you do get a reservation at Lakes of the Clouds, it certainly simplifies a 3-day traverse. As others have mentioned, tent camping options in that area require a 1,000 foot vertical descent and ascent the next day. Still a rugged trip without it. One way to do it is to start from the north and spend the first night at one of the Randolph Mountain Club facilities, like Crag Camp or Gray Knob. Second day get to Lakes, although that does not get you to the Washington summit until afternoon. Third day is a long one, but the terrain is relatively easier (not easy) than the north. You also have a few different options, e.g., you could descend from Pierce or Jackson to the AMC Highland Center, head further south to Webster, or even spend a 3rd night at Mizpah Spring Hut or Nauman tent site (between Pierce and Jackson) if you wanted to break it up. That said, the likelihood of being in the Presidentials for 3 or 4 days without hitting some weather is pretty low, so be prepared for rain, wind, and cold. Lightning when above tree-line is non-negotiable. Find shelter or descend below tree-line ASAP if a thunderstorm is rolling in. You definitely need a map, and you should review the various points of egress along the route before you go, so you can move quickly if necessary to get below tree line to either wait it out, or bail. Depending upon where you bail, it can be a very long way out to a major road. It's a fantastic hike! :)

peakbagger
01-20-2022, 08:56
The huts vary in their scenic view and attributes. IMO, Lake of the Crowds, Madison Hut and Greenleaf Hut are all in dramatic locations, at or above treeline with nearby features that could be hiked to even make it more dramatic. Zealand, Galehead,Lonesome Lake and Carter Notch have their charms but one step lower in the must stay killer view list. Mitzpah is just a hut in the woods relative to the others. The hut experience is an acquired tase for some. They are in incredible demand and AMC stuffs as many folks as they can legally fit in them. Each hut is different, but sleeping accommodations are a large group gender separated bunk rooms with 3 high bunks and they are crammed in to maximize capacity. Light sleepers will not sleep as there is a steady stream of traffic to and from the communal bathrooms, folks snore and fart and many are clueless on flashlight use. Meals are communal and when the hut is full, guests are seated "cheek" to cheek". There are no showers or hot running water so everyone has hiker funk, there is no heat in the bunkrooms. Some huts have a heated common room. There are usually families and kids and that means some kids may be unhappy and let the other guests know they are unhappy.

There is usually some sort of presentation after supper and guests are guilted into leaving big tips for the croo. Meals are at a fixed time and IMO the best time to hike is way before they serve breakfast at or just before sunrise. The croo's temperaments can vary, in the early season they are enthusiastic but can get burnt out later in the season and adopt the fake smile for the guests later in the season. Croos work and live together, mos tof the time the vibe is good but other times things can be strained. They can work hard and recreate hard on occasion out of sight of guests. So if you are not into crowds and light sleeper your experience may be less than optimal. The trade off is walk out the door in the early AM or in the evening and the views can be incredible. The so called Golden hours are the 1 hour around sunrise and sunset and hard to beat a sunset from the Lakes dining room or from the nearby top of Monroe or the from the top of Madison at Madison Hut. The view from up towards Lafayette from Greenleaf with evening alpenglow is also hard to beat.

For folks staying at huts for multiple nights the spacing is set up to make it an easy days hike on a nice day between some of the huts and not so easy between others. It just means a much lighter pack and no need to carry food. It is a minimum 2000 foot climb up to the ridge from the valley and varying approach distances so folks staying at the huts skip doing this on a daily basis. Days are much longer around the solstice in June, sunrise is around 6 Am and sunset is around 9 PM around June 21st. figure in some light an hour before and after. The sun rises much farther north and sets much farther north near the solstice and that means some great golden hours on north slopes. Waiting until the fall equnox cuts hours of daylight to 12 hours (7 to 7)

So if you are really want sunrise or sunset from above treeline its hard to beat staying at a hut unless you night hike. There is an increasing number of folks who night hike to catch sunrise or sunset froma summit. The trails are well marked and pick a night with a full moon and you will not be the only one out on the trails. You also can park at the Caps ridge trailhead and do about a 45 minute hike to the first Cap and get a nice sunset view. So shifting one of your hikes either early or later can get you the sunrise and sunset if you are comfortable hiking with a headlamp. The sunrise on the ridge n Wildcat mtn is pretty special as there is a great view east for sunrise and then the entire east side of Mt Washington is lit up with early morning sun. The hike is up a maintenance "road" up the ski slope so it easy hiking in the dark. More than few folks hike up late the nght before and camp on the the ski slopes to catch sunrise (no water or facilties up there). its legal camping as the summit ridge is technically just below treeline (but has good views from various viewpoints.

Many folks leave their tents setup for several days at a campsite, theft is rare. IMO if you have a car, camp out of the trunk and minimize what you leave. Lots of critters make their living raiding campsites so its best to leave the tent flaps open and let them do their thing. Rent a car with a trunk and avoid leaving valuables within sight. Car break ins can happen on occasion so carry your valuables in your pack and keep things out of sight in the car.

I do need to stress that a visit to the whites is to many a trip to candy store with far too many things to sample in one trip. It is predicated on being in shape for multiday hikes or factor in rest days. The number one complaint from visitors is they bit off too much the first day and are too sore to go hiking the next two. Except for the trail runners, no one is keeping track so adopt a slow pace with plenty of breaks and hike long hours. Many crank out an early hike and get back to camp in in. Ideally hike longer days at a slower pace and mix in some early hikes with some late hikes. The other issue is that with Covid and lack of employees is plan to eat in. Buy a throwaway cooler and fill it up at grocery store otherwise plan on burning up a lot of time in the AM finding breakfast and waiting in line in the evening. Gorham does have McDonalds and Dunkin Donuts, same with the Conway area but plan on losing an hour. The trails and parking lots are least busy in the early AM so bring a trail breakfast and get an early start and avoid the mentality that you need to eat lunch at the summit. Summits are busy from around 11:30 AM to 1 PM with folks who plan their lunches and frequently the afternoon clouds start to bubble up and the haze on horizon starts to kick in.

pslates
01-20-2022, 16:29
Anyone have any experience or opinion on doing this area with a professional group where essentially you pay for a planned route, food, lodging and a guide on the trails for at least a few days and even some provided gear. I have never done anything like this because they seem expensive compared to my normal expense and possibly somewhat elementary from what I am use to and I already have a variety of needed gear. I have backpacked for decades and some with groups but mainly by myself for the last ten years. I have simply never been to the area and have not hiked above tree line for decades and wonder if that would simplify things but also allow me to have pretty much the same experience and enjoyment.

I read of one three day trip each night staying in a hut. I commonly say the advantage of being by yourself is you get to do what you want, when you want and sometimes with groups feel like I am missing some activities I would prefer.

peakbagger
01-20-2022, 17:59
Last thing I knew AMC runs or ran guided hut to hut hikes. THey used to do it during the shoulder seasons when the nuts were not as busy. Give them a call as their new website is the worst.

pslates
01-20-2022, 19:26
I have read of their trips which I believe are full. I read of a company titled wildland trekking which sounds very interesting. Much more expensive than trips I commonly do but I guess very educational on the area and would not be by myself

peakbagger
01-21-2022, 11:46
IMO, unless you are newbie or just lazy no need for a guide, book two nights one at Madison Hut, then Lake of the Crowds and then a room at the Highland Center or the hiker option at Shapleigh Lodge and use the AMC shuttles. Take the bus up to Pinkham Notch, stay at Pinkham then catch the shuttle in the AM to Appalachia in Randolph. The hike up to Madison Hut is 2 to 3 hours so you have plenty of time to get up there and check out the summit of Mt Madison. The normal route up to Madison is Valley Way from Appalaichia but there is zero view, you can easily do the Airline whose upper section skirts along Kings Ravine and still be at the hut in plenty of time. Make sure you catch sunset from the ridge on Mt Madison (15 to 20 minutes) from the hut. BTW, the RMC trail network is quite dense with lots of local trails and intersections, its easy to take the wrong trail despite great signage so pay attention. The hint is the huts are crowded inside so plan to spend time outside of them right up to supper. Most guests are in groups but they usually are interested in talking to other folks. Not the place for an introvert. BTW they do not sell alcohol but if you bring your own bottle but you need to carry it down as they do not carry visitors trash. Bring a sleep mask and earplugs.

You have plenty of time the next day for the best of the best hike to LOC. You can easily add in the summit of Adams and Jefferson via blue blazes (the AT skips several summits to avoid the worst weather exposure). The one warning is the summit of Mt Washington is a zoo. Its loaded with tourists and there is long waiting line to get your picture at the summit. Its easy to spend way too much time there. There is a nice photo spot with sign just below the summit that is quicker. If the forecast is good no need to rush to LOC. The summit of Monroe is not far from LOC but the sunset views from LOC are pretty darn good.

Day two after LOC is still real nice but a bit less bony and easier walking all the way down to Crawford Notch via the Crawford Path that diverges from the AT near the summit of Mt Pierce, dont skip the Monroe and Eisenhower blue blazes. You end up with wasted day the next day at Pinkham as you cannot catch the bus to Boston in the afternoon as there is not one. With a rental car you can catch the morning shuttle to Pinkham, pick up the car and still get a evening flight out of Portland or Manchester.

The AT along the ridge is easy to follow. A lot of it is screed in to keep hikers off the alpine plants. If the weather sucks, a guide is not going to make it easier and they cannot change the weather. The hut posts weather forecasts every evening and the hut crews will advise you if its going to be dangerous day on the ridgeline.

There are lot of folks heading between the huts. Sure a guide can point out the scientific names of the alpine plants along the way but they still look nice and odds are you will be too busy watching your feet or stopping and checking out the view. There are roads paraleing the ridge and plenty of trails to bail out if the weather does go weird during the day. (Note there is "rule" as to which way you bail, if you need to bail, bail to the west, to the east are two wilderness areas with steep wall glacial gulfs, yes there are trails that go there but they are inevitably steep and a long walk out.

JNI64
01-22-2022, 01:26
Thanks for all the info. It is all totally new to me. I have not flown for about twenty years and never been to the area. I looked to drive but about 12 hours from my home which I would do in two days and that would be extremely boring and complicated following the route for me. Unfortunately plan to come by myself which is another reason to at least spend the night around others on a very popular route. I got a lot of info from section Hiker website.

regarding Covid I have been vexed three times and to my knowledge never had it and no one knows what it may be like in the future but I have debated waiting a year because of that and allowing even more planning.

I even debate doing a guided small group 3 day trip of the same route but so far see one and two day. I walk and bike over a thousand miles each year on solo drives and trips but will most likely slow going up the mountains and am not a racer and like a slow but continuous pace

I've been wanting to go up there and hike before I get to old:(!
If you're interested in some company on this adventure.
But I would want to drive and take a week or 2. Let me know if you're interested.

JNI64
01-22-2022, 01:33
And I feel the same way it's a very intimidating kinda confusing place to traverse/hike.

peakbagger
01-22-2022, 08:17
For a trip like that, add in a run over to Baxter State Park, the Whites will get you in shape. BSP is the whites on steroids ;)

Its about a 6 hour drive from the whites.

pslates
01-22-2022, 21:56
I appreciate all the info and am sorry if I got off the subject. I also learned of an REI group hike in the area and the route they do but do not have the dates yet because of them looking to reserve huts for the groups and I ultimately prefer the common phrase hike my own hike but am fine with chatting when I meet someone or in the evening or even meeting someone or a small group to hike with and one problem since I have never been to the area is deciding what I want to see. In the process I learned of the Franconia Ridge day trip which sounds great also and I wonder if I should squeeze this in with even possibly a rest day between the two areas or just concentrate on the presidentials at least if I want to to the entire section.

I might feel bad about myself for not doing the entire presidentials. I am looking to go at least the third week of June or anytime in the summer and the last I looked yesterday the flights in June from my area to Manchester had two seats left and I have decided to rent a car instead of the bus to the area. To do the franconia loop I wondered about staying at the Layfette campground at least the night before to get an early start which is always my favorite to beat the crowds. Then the next night I would prefer to stay somewhere else because Franconia seems like a great location but not my favorite form of campsite and I would probably prefer to car camp there but have not chosen a car to rent yet.

If I decided to the Franconia and take a break the next day I thought of heading over to spend the next night at Shapleigh Bunkhouse and getting a shuttle the next morning to the presidentals possibly starting on the Ammonoosuc trail and LOC hut and possibly doing washington the same day or first thing the next morning giving me two chances and then Mizpah spring hut the next night. Back to Crawford the next day and stay once again at Shapleigh Bunkhouse and leave the next morning.

If it would be common for most people to be able to do both Franconia and the entire presidentials with possibly a break day then I would love that or possibly having another day hike for just the norther section.

Staying at Pinkham the night before starting the entire presidentials does sound like the best location for the time the bus gets to the trail. I believe I saw the bus does that route a good bit earlier than from Crawford but not sure yet the best place to leave the car to easily hike back to it which would be my preferred. I believe I read I would have to pay for a 2 person room at Pinkham for just myself to stay.

Thanks for the great info and help

pslates
01-23-2022, 04:55
I also wonder about doing the presidentials by doing the AT south from joe dodge lodge to simply avoid one bus ride and finishing at highlands center area. Would the hike up to Madison from the north be more interesting and worth the bus ride.

I am in the mood to at least book my flight very soon then plan my exact route and stays currently looking to arrive Sat and leave Thursday with possibly at least one break day to be careful.

jeffmeh
01-23-2022, 08:55
IMO, the Northern Presidentials, are the most spectacular section in the Whites. Also the most strenuous. If I were traveling in with limited time, I would prioritize that, and I would definitely hit the summits. :)

HankIV
01-23-2022, 11:01
I also wonder about doing the presidentials by doing the AT south from joe dodge lodge to simply avoid one bus ride and finishing at highlands center area. Would the hike up to Madison from the north be more interesting and worth the bus ride..

I found the hike from Pinkham to Madison very rewarding even in some chilly July rain.

I’d start Pinkham, Madison Hut, LOC, Highland Ctr (arrange ride ahead of time, no signal in Crawford Notch) then back on trail to Zealand Hut, soak my feet in the falls there. I liked Zealand Hut the best, but was happiest to arrive at Madison. Your experience will vary and be weather dependent.

Slo-go'en
01-23-2022, 12:23
I also wonder about doing the presidentials by doing the AT south from joe dodge lodge to simply avoid one bus ride and finishing at highlands center area. Would the hike up to Madison from the north be more interesting and worth the bus ride.

I am in the mood to at least book my flight very soon then plan my exact route and stays currently looking to arrive Sat and leave Thursday with possibly at least one break day to be careful.

The Boston/Berlin bus stops at Pinkham (about 9PM). Having a reservation, at the Joe Dodge lodge allows for an early start the next day and is likely much less expensive than a motel in Gorham, especially on a Saturday when all the ATVers are in town and the room rates are at a premium.

While it would be possible to get to Crawford from Lakes in one day, you'd arrive very late and miss the shuttle. Getting back to Boston from Crawford is round about. You need to get back to Gorham for the 7:40 AM bus. So, what I would do is stay at Mizpha so you can arrive at Crawford in time for the AMC shuttle back to Pinkham, spend another night there so you can catch the morning bus back to Boston. Hopefully, you can book an afternoon return flight home.

Two nights at Joe Dodge and three hut stays is going to run some serious cash, it will be well worth joining the AMC to get the discounted price.

So, you'r looking at Sat (arrive Pinkham), Sun (Madison), Mon (LOC), Tue (Mizpha), Wen (back to Pinkham), Thurs (heading home)

pslates
01-23-2022, 15:11
This morning I booked a flight to Manchester and small rental car arriving on a Saturday. Hope to be in the area mid afternoon and flight back Friday morning. I am trying to allow enough days to enjoy the area even if some rain days. With that out of the way I am trying to decide what nights to stay where and reserve that asap. This morning I also joined the AMC for what seems to be a huge discount and return far more than the $50 fee to join. I also sent them an email asking when I will get what I guess is a membership number to use for the discounts.

Trying to decide best place to park the car A few times in the past in other states I have made arrangements for a shuttle to drive me days away from my car and hike back which seems the best to me but I have never had buses available. I have seen the bus schedule but all of this is new to me so hard to decide what exactly to do. I wonder about parking my car at Crawford and catching a bus to Pinkham where I would spend the night and either start hiking the next morning from there or catch a bus to Appalachia. It does look like there is a bus stop at 4 at Highland and then arrives at 5 at Pinkham. Should I should purchase a parking pass online. Would I have to pay to park in the area of Crawford for a few days. The Shapleigh Bunkhouse also looks like an interesting lodge area and read and see photos of a good view from Mt Willard nearby so would be interested staying there either my first night from the airport or last night before heading back home.

I have wondered if I should start my main hike up to Madison on Monday to avoid the greater weekend population. Sunday I would mainly explore the area and probably do a short hike. I would also love to tent camp at least one night somewhere official on the mountain which is what I normally do but I wish that could be reserved. Possibly the Nauman site.

I appreciate help with how much to do per day and wondered about skipping the Mizpha area to get to the valley to stay in Shapleigh Bunkhouse.

pslates
01-24-2022, 13:55
I just booked my stays at AMC locations and I am glad I did since it seems at least the weekends in the valleys are already full just like my flight and they are not until early non official summer. I had chosen to arrive on a Saturday booking my flight yesterday because of only two seats left and nothing available at Pinkham until Sunday night so I have a good while to find some cheap place to stay in the valley Saturday night and if possible I would love to just park the car and take a walk and hike to what I choose as a campsite which is my common method of backpacking but taking it rather easy for next few days on the mountains which will be totally new to me.

My last night will be the Shaleigh Bunkhouse and I have months to figure out where to park my car for a few days and easily get back to it at least via the AMC bus. This will all be to celebrate my 60th birthday a few weeks before I arrive and with at least some good weather possibly the most interesting trip of my life.

peakbagger
01-24-2022, 14:22
No parking fee at the Pinkham Notch Parking lot. AMC guests park for free a Highland/Shapleigh bunkhouse lot. Depending on what hut you booked I strongly suggest starting at Madison Hut.

For the vast majority of the whites, there is a 1/4 mile rule. Park at 99% of the trailheads, walk 1/4 of mile and camp. Many trails follow watersheds and usually 1/4 mile in gets you spot in woods near a stream. Worse case is I can supply you a drive in campsite about 1/2 mile from Appalachia at my woodlot. Its got water but no facilities.

pslates
01-24-2022, 16:37
Are you allowed to park at Pinkham or Highland for multiple days when only staying there one night. I currently look to park in the area of Highland and take a shuttle to Pinkham for one night and will be walking back over a few days to my car. I am staying at Madison my 2nd night, 3rd LOC, 4th Mizpah and last Shapleigh. Seems like a lot of time on the mountain and no where near my normal distance but the terrain is all rather new so need to allow time. Hopefully I have some decent weather and I believe this will give me two days to possibly get to Washington preferably early before the train and road are even open.

peakbagger
01-24-2022, 16:56
My understanding is while you are guest of the AMC at the huts that you can park in the lots at Pinkham and Crawford Notch. Give them a call to confirm.