Maine winter AT hike that went bad

[peakbagger]

https://bangordailynews.com/2022/01/26/news/central-maine/2-hikers-rescued-from-appalachian-trail/?fbclid=IwAR04t9R-hpIh5st8Ul_NO_3ufqYpPE_ejZBgj8Nm1vMv4O8nf8TZiNL7sa c

Got to wonder what they were thinking? Granted the snow pack in Maine is not a record but still enough snow in the woods to make breaking trail slow. And subzero nights (Nearby Rangeley was close to 30 below last night. This is the same area that the women got lost and passed away in her tent a few years ago. These hikers were lucky that the area is somewhat accessible by snowmachine.

[4eyedbuzzard]

This makes no sense at all. None. Zero. According to the article they didn't have food, water, proper gear etc., - add the older hiker is 70 years old. Not being "ageist" here, but I'm closing in on that age and there's just no way this is a thought out decision given the mileage, terrain, snow, lack of daylight, etc. It's honestly one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of. Good chance they could have froze to death if they didn't get through on cell phone to the Wardens.

[One Half]

This makes no sense at all. None. Zero. According to the article they didn't have food, water, proper gear etc., - add the older hiker is 70 years old. Not being "ageist" here, but I'm closing in on that age and there's just no way this is a thought out decision given the mileage, terrain, snow, lack of daylight, etc. It's honestly one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of. Good chance they could have froze to death if they didn't get through on cell phone to the Wardens.

Right?! ***?!!!

They should get a nice big bill for the cost of the rescue. And add a "stupid tax" on top!

[cmoulder]

Certainly one of the most bizarre accounts I've ever read.

Sounds as if they're damm lucky to be alive.

[HankIV]

they're damm lucky to be alive.

But humanity isn’t….

What stupid couple of bags of chemicals.

[Toolshed]

Darwin Award Was Interrupted....

[JNI64]

Darwin Award Was Interrupted....

LOL, yep still in the gene pool :-

[peakbagger]

MATC did that as a day hike during the 75th anniversary event 15 or 20 years ago with support from a school bus. We met at Sugarloaf and took a long bus shuttle to Barnjum and then past a gate onto a private logging road that ended near the AT. We then walked a short distance and intersected the AT. We then hiked over to the last mile plaque and up Sugarloaf. Most of the us took the lift down to catch the beer and barbeque at the base of the mountain but without that motivation, the hike down the maintenance road would have gotten us down well before dark.

That said that was in the summer on sunny day with 3 hours more daylight. Maybe there is a rest of the story but from the press account there was some serious lack of planning on their part.

[cmoulder]

Did they have snowshoes?

Even with snowshoes it is frequently very difficult for two fit people to average much more — and sometimes it's much less! — than 1 mph when breaking trail.

[stephanD]

No food.....no water.......no proper equipment.....what in the world could go wrong? :-?

[HooKooDooKu]

Since it sounds like they only planned a day hike, the "no food, no water" makes SOME sense...
But beyond that, they either definitely should have known better, or are just such beginner hikers they were foolish to start with a trip that long even if there wasn't snow.
I know in several Facebook groups people repeat the mantra of the "10 essentials", but I personally change that and simply state that you shouldn't leave the trailhead without having everything you need to survive a night in the woods. If these guys would have approached this trip with that mentality, the fact they only got half way and had to stop at a shelter would have been no big deal. Even without food and water, if they simply would have had enough layer to survive the night they would not have been making headlines.
Can't fix stupid

[rhjanes]

SMH...
and if it was a Day-Hike.....should have turned around at noon.....no matter what.

[BobTheBuilder]

Y'all are pretty harsh in your judgement. I mean, "Darwin Award was Interrupted..." and "LOL, yep still in the gene pool :-" are pretty cruel for a couple of people that made a mistake and had to call for help. If I read the story correctly, they walked back to their car and were uninjured. It may be a good object lesson, but I'm disappointed in the casual cruelty of the comments. As a community, we can be better.

[Deadeye]

Nature would have been harsher.

They may have walked back, but they were escorted by rangers with headlights. Had they not been able to get through on the phone - they would likely have lost fingers and toes, if not their lives.

[cmoulder]

Y'all are pretty harsh in your judgement. I mean, "Darwin Award was Interrupted..." and "LOL, yep still in the gene pool :-" are pretty cruel for a couple of people that made a mistake and had to call for help. If I read the story correctly, they walked back to their car and were uninjured. It may be a good object lesson, but I'm disappointed in the casual cruelty of the comments. As a community, we can be better.




So, how idiotic and irresponsible does someone have to be to earn your derision?

[peakbagger]

Cell service in that area is not great so they were probably a lot closer to freezing to death than most would expect. It is a lot easier than folks to expect to get into HT1 as the first thing that goes is high level thinking. They most likley would have not survived the night. Had they been just north of the ridgeline there is no cell service.

HT I: Mild Hypothermia, 95-89.6 degrees
Normal or nearly normal consciousness, shivering

HT II: Moderate Hypothermia, 89.6-82.4 degrees
Shivering stops, consciousness becomes impaired

HT III: Severe Hypothermia, 82.4-75.2 degrees
Unconscious, may be difficult to detect vital signs

HT IV: Apparent Death, 75.2-59 degrees

HT V: Death from irreversible hypothermia

[illabelle]

Y'all are pretty harsh in your judgement. I mean, "Darwin Award was Interrupted..." and "LOL, yep still in the gene pool :-" are pretty cruel for a couple of people that made a mistake and had to call for help. If I read the story correctly, they walked back to their car and were uninjured. It may be a good object lesson, but I'm disappointed in the casual cruelty of the comments. As a community, we can be better.


I have to agree. While the guys that were rescued made poor decisions, it's not a justification for us to be harsh or cruel. Reminds me of this quote I've seen a few times:
"Sometimes you need to be kind to others, not because they are nice, but because you are."

[cmoulder]

Around HT 3 there is a well-know physiological reaction that occurs wherein the victim suddenly feels extremely warm and rips off clothing. Unless there is someone standing ready to intervene, 4 and 5 are practical givens.

On his return from the South Pole in 1912, Robert F. Scott was found to have shed all his clothing. When the British rescue team finally found his (and 4 others') remains, they interpreted it as Scott having made the heroic decision to hasten his inescapable demise, when in fact this is probably what occurred. But the British public love that sort of stuff.

The real miracle is Beck Weathers on Everest in 1996. He was probably deep into HT 4 and left for dead but managed to rouse himself and make it to camp.

[HooKooDooKu]

I have to agree. While the guys that were rescued made poor decisions, it's not a justification for us to be harsh or cruel. Reminds me of this quote I've seen a few times:
"Sometimes you need to be kind to others, not because they are nice, but because you are."
I understand the sentiment, and it most definitely applies when people "make mistakes".

But I also understand the sentiment expressed by cmoulder:

So, how idiotic and irresponsible does someone have to be to earn your derision?

Take the case of the woman who got lost in Great Smokey Mountains a few years ago while on a day hike out to Andrews Bald.
I still don't understand how the story ended in tragedy given the number of mistakes required to get things to go the way they did.
But nobody acted foolish. It was a short day hike on a very popular trail in relatively mild conditions. So it took "A Series of Unfortunate Events" and decisions for that story to end in tragedy.

But these guys made foolish decisions from the start.
What they attempted was a task that, for the inexperienced, was doomed to end in failure. They were fortunate that just enough went right that they survived.

[gpburdelljr]

I understand the sentiment, and it most definitely applies when people "make mistakes".

But these guys made foolish decisions from the start.
What they attempted was a task that, for the inexperienced, was doomed to end in failure. They were fortunate that just enough went right that they survived.
Maybe they just made the mistakes they did simply because they were inexperienced. If they ever make the same mistake again, then it would be justifiable to label them as foolish, or irresponsible. We’ve all made mistakes, some of them pretty foolish in retrospect, and hopefully learned from them.

[RockDoc]

I'm certain that we don't know the whole story. It's never just one, or even two things that cause fatalities in the woods. It's cascading issues, some of which you have no control over.

So they set out to do 15 miles at 0800. At even 2 mph they'd be done by 4 pm. That's not unreasonable. Millions of people do it.

But Mr Murphy came out to play. I would cut them some slack.

I'm almost 70 and I've gone out dozens of times and done more miles than that as a quick day hike. I regularly do an 18 mile section of the Wonderland Trail on Mt Rainier as a day hike. Yes some times we finish in the dark. And yes, Mr Murphy could royally screw us over. It's a chance we take.

[JNI64]

I didn't mean to be so harsh. I'm happy Darwin interrupted and Mr Murphy didn't kill them!!!!!

[Slow Trek]

Here's the real problem. When hikers do foolish things,regardless of ignorance,inexperience,or any other cause,they transfer that risk to the rescue folks. Yes,that's their job,yes,they know what they are doing,and yes,they have the right gear. Given all that,they still put these folks in harm's way for no good reason. I don't care if one of the game wardens just sprained an ankle on the way back to his house at 2 AM,the hikers poor actions cost others too much. Thankfully there are still people willing to help like this.

[cmoulder]

So they set out to do 15 miles at 0800. At even 2 mph they'd be done by 4 pm. That's not unreasonable. Millions of people do it.

Snow/ice/cold changes everything. Even with snowshoes, one must be very conservative and plan on 1mph.

And if one doesn't know this, at least enough sense to turn around at noon or 1pm? Maybe take *some* food & water?

Sure, there are certainly some facts we don't know, but this is Lloyd Christmas level stuff; Murphy's law is for things that might not be anticipated by a reasonable person.

[Traveler]

Setting out to do 15-miles in rolling hill terrain at elevations under 1,200-feet total elevation gain without proper equipment, food, water, or traction devices in mid-winter is one thing. Tacking some of the most difficult terrain along the AT in the Mahoosuc range topping 4,000-feet without proper gear is quite another. Ignorance is the mother of most accidents, which the accident here was no one perished in this mid-winter summit bagging attempt. Ignorance, in this instance is not really much of an excuse in and of itself given the abject lack of any discernible experience to support any decision making skills that looked upon this outing as a "good idea".

Public derision has been with us since the first cave drawings depicted a large animal running down a hunter without a spear. This is an ancient form of social behavior that actually serves a purpose, to inform others of the dangers involved in various activities. We may not like this facet of human behavior but it is an effective social tool since some people respond to cautionary tales and have the capacity to learn vicariously from the experiences of others. Derision can be presented in a manner that either concernedly, callously or humorously frames carelessness of this caliber. The problem is less about those who have remarked in callous manner than it is about those who managed to survive what has killed others who were far better prepared and caused a number of people to go into that terrain to rescue them.

[LazyLightning]

Too harsh? I don't go out for an hour with no food and water, never mind no proper gear. Yes we all do stupid things but I'm the first person to call myself an idiot and be harsh on myself when I do. At the very least you deserve to be told and know what a complete idiot you are for attempting this, should have to pay recue costs to. You don't learn from mistakes when somebody pats you on the back and says "don't worry about it bud" but it seems that's what the worlds turning into.

[gpburdelljr]

“Nothing so needs reforming as other people’s habits.”, Mark Twain.

[cmoulder]

"There's no amount of logic or reason that will convince the 'trophies for everybody' crowd." ~ Me.

[garlic08]

Hey, it's a happy ending. No injuries, and the rescue crew did what they've trained to do and did it well. They scored two saves, not a bad feeling.

Two more guys who've made bad decisions won't affect the survival of the species.

[TexasBob]

Whenever I read a story like this one, I wonder what thought processes lead people to do something which later seems to be an obviously bad idea. Those guys didn't set out to get in a life threatening situation. What lead them to believe this hike wasn't a problem when it was actually so dangerous? Is it inexperience, over estimation of one's ability, recklessness, lack of knowledge? I would love to talk to these guys about what they were thinking. Understanding why people do seemly dumb things can help another person avoid the same types of bad decision making in the future.

[Wolf - 23000]

Winter hiking Maine is no joke. It is TOUGH and COLD! I know first-hand. As someone who has winter hiked the entire AT, it is a different type of brutally COLD once you get north into Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine! They are lucky they did not get themselves or someone else killed.

As many people know, Aquaman is currently winter hiking the AT southbound and posting his videos on youtube. One of the dangers of youtube videos is it does always show how difficult and dangerous a hiking trip is to someone sitting in a nice warm home. It also gives people some very foolish ideas to try to be "adventurous."

Wolf

[peakbagger]

Aquaman also had a very atypical "winter", he missed the first major snowdump by days. No doubt he has the sense and equipment to survive it but its sounds like the folks in the article had neither.

[BradMT]

Pretty damn dumb.

[Toolshed]

Y'all are pretty harsh in your judgement. I mean, "Darwin Award was Interrupted..." and "LOL, yep still in the gene pool :-" are pretty cruel for a couple of people that made a mistake and had to call for help. If I read the story correctly, they walked back to their car and were uninjured. It may be a good object lesson, but I'm disappointed in the casual cruelty of the comments. As a community, we can be better.


None of these comments are harsher than the luck of the draw of not finding a cell signal. These two were balls-on lucky. I'd like to know the mindset of those that go out with minimal food/water and no overnight equipment in deep snow in 4k' mountain ranges in true winter conditions with no turn-a-round time. What mindset continues to limp/trudge through the deep snowpack after realizing they will in no way make thier target. They were in quicksand before they started and never even realized it - only going deeper as time passed that day. I stand by my comment that Darwin was interrupted - The truth and the facts can sometimes be cruel, Bob. Deal with it.

[Maineiac64]

How astute to recognize the mistakes and repugnant to wish someone had perished from them.

[stephanD]

Better be kind than unkind. I agree. But winter/snow hiking in New England is NO JOKE. If you do not have the experience and/or the proper equipment, stay home. Period. The two gentlemen had neither. I currently read a book by Alan Richardson "Breakfast with Salamanders: Seasons On the Appalachian Trail". It's a memoir by a section hiker and it is divided by seasons. In "Winter" he writes about his New Hampshire hiking on the AT in, well, winter months. Highly recommended if you want to know what does it mean to hike in deep snow and below zero temperatures. I, myself, did some December hiking on the.....Pinhoti trail in Alabama and enjoyed every moment.

[HooKooDooKu]

How astute to recognize the mistakes and repugnant to wish someone had perished from them.
At first I was going to retort that "no one wished them dead", just pointing out the stupidity and and how lucky these guys are to be alive.

But sadly, you are correct. At least one response basically did that, and I'll join you in that rebuke.

[Last Call]

Where on earth is the compassion for these poor misguided souls? They were rescued by the good rangers and no harm was done....

[Deadeye]

Where on earth is the compassion for these poor misguided souls? They were rescued by the good rangers and no harm was done....
No harm was done by pure luck. The lack of compassion stems from their complete lack of self-help.

[Lone Wolf]

No harm was done by pure luck. The lack of compassion stems from their complete lack of self-help.

i read the article. no sympathy

[gpburdelljr]

Everybody has made some stupid mistakes in their life, although some may not be willing to admit it.

[4shot]

Everybody has made some stupid mistakes in their life, although some may not be willing to admit it.

I will gladly do it here...on the internet and hiding behind a pseudonym. But not at work or any social gathering. In those situations I pretend that I am things that I am not.;)

[RiverbirchHiker]

....As many people know, Aquaman is currently winter hiking the AT southbound and posting his videos on youtube. One of the dangers of youtube videos is it does always show how difficult and dangerous a hiking trip is to someone sitting in a nice warm home. It also gives people some very foolish ideas to try to be "adventurous." Wolf

Aquaman also had a very atypical "winter", he missed the first major snowdump by days...
Thank you both for commenting on Aquaman's hike. I didn't know about it and am now having a lot of fun watching those videos! I absolutely love the AT in Maine. Checking out the above treeline summit of Baldpate Mtn. *in winter* was just a real joy.
I am not seduced into thinking I can handle the kind of hike he's doing--minimizing the difficulty & danger. What he's doing is remarkable.

I have limited winter hiking experience, but plenty to have deep respect for the trail in winter. I'm pleased that I can watch something way way out of my range and know and be just fine with that.

For those interested, here's the link:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgWTj0-EW5x1QO3y0yyDPMw

[RiverbirchHiker]

Here's another article on the story:
https://www.thedailycatch.org/articles/experienced-red-hook-hiker-rescued-in-treacherous-conditions-on-maine-mountain/

There's a lot on the background and experience level of one of the hikers.

The reporter reached out to both hikers for comment, but didn't get a response. Bummer--as their story and what decisions they made/didn't make and how and why this happened could be really helpful to other hikers.

[cmoulder]

Here's another article on the story:
https://www.thedailycatch.org/articles/experienced-red-hook-hiker-rescued-in-treacherous-conditions-on-maine-mountain/

There's a lot on the background and experience level of one of the hikers.

The reporter reached out to both hikers for comment, but didn't get a response. Bummer--as their story and what decisions they made/didn't make and how and why this happened could be really helpful to other hikers.
These articles always start off with "highly experienced" but rarely, if ever, get to the meat and bones of the story. I suppose the Rangers are also limited in what they can say.

However, even somebody with moderate winter experience knows that there's no way in Hades you're going to do 15 miles on a short winter day in that terrain and in those conditions. Although it's hard to tell who is who in the photo, it appears the seated fellow who looks like an older gent might be wearing snowshoes so it appears they got that right, maybe.

The biggest mistake IMO is not turning around at a reasonable hour but pressing on knowing that the objective couldn't possibly be achieved at the current rate of progress. Anybody who has done this sort of trip knows there's no shame in turning around.

Just a few days ago a friend and I cut short a trip to Pharaoh Lake Wilderness when the conditions turned out to be colder than forecast. For a few days the forecast low temps had been bouncing around so we decided to hope for the slightly warmer predictions. In reality, first night was -15°F and the next 2 nights progressively colder... actual temp, not wind chill. We had proper gear and could easily have survived, but it just wasn't fun any more so we bagged it, staying out only that one night. The snow depth we encountered was only 6-10" but with occasional stops to eat and drink our average speed at the end of the day was 1.1mph. Our original plan was for no more than 7.5mi per day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=una4UopTovc&t=424s

[Slo-go'en]

A highly experience hiker knows when it's time to turn around and that should have been obvious early on.

[Leo L.]

Here's another article on the story:
https://www.thedailycatch.org/articles/experienced-red-hook-hiker-rescued-in-treacherous-conditions-on-maine-mountain/

There's a lot on the background and experience level of one of the hikers.

The reporter reached out to both hikers for comment, but didn't get a response. Bummer--as their story and what decisions they made/didn't make and how and why this happened could be really helpful to other hikers.
I'm always interested and trying to analyse what really went wrong when something bad had happened.
In this specific case, after having read this second article, it gives me the idea that maybe both had set to this very ambitious goal, but maybe one ot the two hikers finally could not meet the high expectations but failed to admit it to the other for too long.
When he finally could not go on any more it was already to late.
After the successful SAR action, they kept to themself about the real reason, the stronger guy protecting the weaker one.

I personally had something similar happen once on a guided day hike in the desert, when a local guide failed miserably and we were very late (in the middle of the night) to come back to the hotel where everybody was sitting on embers.
We agreed amongst us to NOT blame the guide but made up a reasonable excuse story.

Just a wild guess...

[gpburdelljr]

I'm always interested and trying to analyse what really went wrong when something bad had happened.
In this specific case, after having read this second article, it gives me the idea that maybe both had set to this very ambitious goal, but maybe one ot the two hikers finally could not meet the high expectations but failed to admit it to the other for too long.
When he finally could not go on any more it was already to late.
After the successful SAR action, they kept to themself about the real reason, the stronger guy protecting the weaker one.

I personally had something similar happen once on a guided day hike in the desert, when a local guide failed miserably and we were very late (in the middle of the night) to come back to the hotel where everybody was sitting on embers.
We agreed amongst us to NOT blame the guide but made up a reasonable excuse story.

Just a wild guess...
Unfortunately you almost never get the whole story from a newspaper article.

[Kaptainkriz]

So, is this the same guy back in 2018 getting rescued in NH?
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1625834630841659&id=197746700317133

[One Half]

So, is this the same guy back in 2018 getting rescued in NH?
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1625834630841659&id=197746700317133
presumably both of these guys were "experienced." What a couple of idiots. It's one thing if this is your first winter attempt and you are entirely clueless. But these 2 are supposedly seasoned?! Give me a break!

Haisley is originally from Brunswick, Maine, and is a respected, seasoned hiker. His outdoor excursions are well-documented in Facebook posts, which detail adventures on snowy peaks and rolling valleys on a variety of mountains in the Northeast and on Mount Hood, a stratovolcano in Oregon that soars at 11,249 feet.
Haisley has summited over 35 peaks in the Catskills, all of which are over 3,500 feet, and four of which he summited in the winter without the aid of a GPS. These are among the accomplishments that won him membership to the Catskill 3500 club, which was founded in 1962 and helps fund local trail conservation through membership dues. Club members plan weekly hiking trips throughout the year.

[Deadeye]

So, is this the same guy back in 2018 getting rescued in NH?
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1625834630841659&id=197746700317133
In that case, they should send him the bill.

[cmoulder]

So, is this the same guy back in 2018 getting rescued in NH?
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1625834630841659&id=197746700317133

Good find. Let's see he's 70 now, so....

Looks as if his mentoring program is coming along nicely. :rolleyes:

[Traveler]

A classic example of there being little education in the second kick of the mule.....

[4eyedbuzzard]

So, is this the same guy back in 2018 getting rescued in NH?
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1625834630841659&id=197746700317133


Good find. Let's see he's 70 now, so....

Looks as if his mentoring program is coming along nicely. :rolleyes:


A classic example of there being little education in the second kick of the mule.....Yep. Same idi---er, individual. Different mountain. Same result. If nothing else, he's consistent.

[JNI64]

Y'all are just looking at it wrong he's showing examples of what NOT to do.

[cmoulder]

Y'all are just looking at it wrong he's showing examples of what NOT to do.
Could be. Or maybe he's just unlucky. Hmm.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fen.goodtimes.my%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F03%2Fpic3-6-356x220.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

[Leo L.]

Unfortunately you almost never get the whole story from a newspaper article.

Sorry, if the story from 2018 belongs to the same guy, I'll pull back my guess.

[Wolf - 23000]

Thank you both for commenting on Aquaman's hike. I didn't know about it and am now having a lot of fun watching those videos! I absolutely love the AT in Maine. Checking out the above treeline summit of Baldpate Mtn. *in winter* was just a real joy.
I am not seduced into thinking I can handle the kind of hike he's doing--minimizing the difficulty & danger. What he's doing is remarkable.



I have limited winter hiking experience, but plenty to have deep respect for the trail in winter. I'm pleased that I can watch something way way out of my range and know and be just fine with that.

For those interested, here's the link:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgWTj0-EW5x1QO3y0yyDPMw

I have only seen a few clips, but from what I have seen there are a lot of difficulties he is not sharing. I did my winter Maine hike in 2005. It is not an easy trip. Unless someone has a lot of winter experience, I would not recommend it. I believe I even posted a few photos here on whiteblaze.

Wolf

[BradMT]

I did my first week long snowshoe trip with a friend on the AT in VT in December 1976. My friend and I were both 15 year old. Temps were -15F every night with daytime high's no more than low single digits. We did fine. Then, after a 650 mile walk with the same friend on the AT in the summer of 1977, we went to the Presidential's for a week of climbing in December of 1977, bagging a number of peaks in temps that were sub zero. We were equipped and knew what to do... AS 16 YEAR OLD KIDS.

This just isn't that hard...

[Toolshed]

Haisley is originally from Brunswick, Maine, and is a respected, seasoned hiker. His outdoor excursions are well-documented in Facebook posts, which detail adventures on snowy peaks and rolling valleys on a variety of mountains in the Northeast and on Mount Hood, a stratovolcano in Oregon that soars at 11,249 feet.
Haisley has summited over 35 peaks in the Catskills, all of which are over 3,500 feet, and four of which he summited in the winter without the aid of a GPS. These are among the accomplishments that won him membership to the Catskill 3500 club, which was founded in 1962 and helps fund local trail conservation through membership dues. Club members plan weekly hiking trips throughout the year.
He summited the 4 Cats3500 required winter peaks "without the aid of a GPS"?? I wonder how folks managed to hike peaks before GPSs???

[LazyLightning]

Just for example - remember the guy they found dead in FL after his GF was found dead? .... just remember, the media was calling that guy an "experienced hiker" when he was thought to possibly be on the AT. Then it was exposed in a FB post or something he was bragging about surviving for weeks on nothing but roman noodles or something (it wasn't roman noodles but something like that) and other instances to show lack of experience. So if the media says someone is experienced there is just as good a chance they are not at all.

[JNI64]

And..... what I've found out in life is "the empty can ratlles the most ".

[cmoulder]

Just for example - remember the guy they found dead in FL after his GF was found dead? .... just remember, the media was calling that guy an "experienced hiker" when he was thought to possibly be on the AT. Then it was exposed in a FB post or something he was bragging about surviving for weeks on nothing but roman noodles or something (it wasn't roman noodles but something like that) and other instances to show lack of experience. So if the media says someone is experienced there is just as good a chance they are not at all.
There are people with 30 years of experience and those who have repeated the first year 30 times.

[4eyedbuzzard]

The very best of us can, and do, make mistakes. And I'm decidedly not among the best. I can't hike 15 miles in the Whites on a day hike, even in summer (not anymore anyway). I haven't bagged the whatever number of whatever footers anywhere (like the younger of these two guys). I've retraced my steps, more times than I'd like to admit, to get back on trail after wandering off. I've even bushwacked out of the woods to a road after getting thoroughly disoriented. I've turned around when the weather turned bad or conditions started deteriorating. Maybe I'm just too risk adverse (cluck, cluck). That said, I think that if I had to be rescued once (as one of these two did only 2 years prior), I'd be damned sure to never - EVER - let it happen again.

What I don't understand in this case is that both of these guys live in the basic geographical area / climate conditions where this occurred, have all sorts of hiking experience that eclipses mine (ADK 3500 clubs, pics of winter ascents on their FB page, etc.), and yet were thoroughly unprepared to spend even a single night out in the woods - on a 15 mile hike, in the White Mountains, in the dead of winter, on snowshoes, . . . Even in summer, with relatively benign weather conditions and 15 hours of daylight, I'd be at least minimally prepared (gear and water) to spend a night out on almost any hike, simply because $#!^ can and does happen. So, I just don't get it. I'm tempted to ask, "What am I missing"? But then I think that perhaps I don't really want to know the answer. Maybe because 40 - 50 years ago when I started hiking we couldn't - and wouldn't - get rescued if we f, er, messed up. There were no cell phones, nor PLBs, nor anything. At best there was a check-in call after a hike, but more likely just a sign-in at a trail register. We KNEW that no one was coming to save our butts [from our own stupidity], for at least for a day or two. So we planned and behaved and carried appropriate gear accordingly.

Sigh. Oh well, just another rant from an OG on the demise of self-sufficiency and responsibility, and perhaps the rise of dependence and arrogance - which doesn't seem, embarrassingly for my generation, to be exclusively a function of youth. 25 years ago (or likely less - Maine has never had good cell service), or one dead phone battery these days, they might have been found injured and frostbitten, or even dead. Some say "no harm, no foul". I'll only agree to half of that - that there was ultimately no harm. But only because thanks to the good fortune of a cell phone having a working battery and being able to see a tower, mother nature wasn't able to throw her flag and dish out the penalty.

[cmoulder]

Sums it up nicely for me, being the same age.

Back then, our rescue plan was us. Certainly brought more gravity and immediacy to the "What if?" scenarios... nobody was going to come get you.

[Deadeye]

Amen, brother.

I have a cell phone, but can't rely on service. It's still my plan, every hike, that I have a time I'll be home, and someone responsible will call the ranger if I'm not. And I have what I need to get through the night if need be.

[RiverbirchHiker]

I have only seen a few clips, but from what I have seen there are a lot of difficulties he is not sharing. I did my winter Maine hike in 2005. It is not an easy trip. Unless someone has a lot of winter experience, I would not recommend it. I believe I even posted a few photos here on whiteblaze. Wolf

I've gotten really into watching his videos. That's got me thinking a lot about what it's like to backpack on the AT in winter--the difficulties and what kind of experience is needed, and more.
---------------

**I could go on about this, and don't want to get too off topic here. So, I'll put all that into a different, new thread. This thread started with a response to this article and how these two hikers got into a serious (life-threatening) jam and were rescued: https://bangordailynews.com/2022/01/26/news/central-maine/2-hikers-rescued-from-appalachian-trail/?fbclid=IwAR04t9R-hpIh5st8Ul_NO_3ufqYpPE_ejZBgj8Nm1vMv4O8nf8TZiNL7sa c

[Debbie]

I just can’t believe this. It’s beyond foolish or crazy; it’s beyond belief. I agree there’s got to be more to the story. I have done this section in summertime and that was difficult enough.

[Emerson Bigills]

I am not an experienced winter conditions hiker by any means. I do have a couple thoughts on this, however. As I recall that section of the AT is very challenging even in good weather. I have to admit that I slack packed it on my AT thru-hike and felt fortunate I didn't have my entire kit on me. Very tough terrain and we all know the infamy.

Like most in this thread, I "enjoy" reading about backcountry trips gone awry. From what I have seen, people who perish or come close are not always novices. The level of experience may often be exaggerated in the media, but experience in the backwoods is not the only ticket to survival. It also requires judgement. It's not uncommon to get bad forecasts and you can find yourself in an unexpected situation. Backpackers are stubborn to turn around or even hunker down and ride it out. Bottom line is you need to expect the unexpected and leave your "pride" back at the trailhead. As I once heard on an AMC video, "Mother Nature is indifferent about outcomes".

[4eyedbuzzard]

Just as a parallel: Most private pilots I know closely follow NTSB and AOPA accident reports on general aviation incidents. One of the behavioral failures that is most common in aviation, even with experienced pilots, is known technically as "plan continuation bias", aka get-there-itis, a subconscious cognitive bias to continue the original plan in spite of changing conditions, accounting for almost half of all fatal general aviation accidents. We see this similar behavior in hiking and mountaineering (called summit fever) quite often, as in this rescue event. When it became apparent early-on, based upon their progress, that they couldn't possibly complete their hike, and yet unprepared to spend the night, they continued on rather than turning back at the half-way point time wise. In hindsight, it never makes any sense, but it happens all too frequently, and is repeated year after year. We humans are stubborn creatures.

[Wolf - 23000]

I've gotten really into watching his videos. That's got me thinking a lot about what it's like to backpack on the AT in winter--the difficulties and what kind of experience is needed, and more.
---------------


RiverbirchHiker,

I have section hiked the entire AT in the winter. It is not an easy journey. I did my journey nearly entirely without support. I also accepted the risk that if something was going to happen, there was not going to be a rescue team coming after me. There are multiple challenges that most people are not even going to think about until they are there. The first is route finding on the trail marked with white blazes surrounded by white is not easy. On top of that you are breaking snow continuously. Some area the snow is going to be extremely deep others less - it depends on where the snow collects with the wind. And of course, there is water. My guest is these two knock heads were not carrying enough water or had their water freeze on them. Winter hiking is very physical demanding - you need a lot of water to keep yourself hydrated enough. Videos can tell you a lot but there are a lot more that unless you are there or experience, most hikers are not going to know.

Wolf

[Night Train]

Is it really a rescue if you walk out under your own power?

[peakbagger]

Is it really a rescue if you walk out under your own power?

IMHO, Yes, If you have to call for a rescue and S&R folks need to respond to the site, its a rescue. S&R folks had to mobilize and that can be inherently risky. Granted the outcome was good, but no doubt in cold winter conditions the Incident commander had to assume that it could turn into a carryout. I would not be surprised if there may have been 20 or 30 S&R folks contacted to be ready to respond.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Is it really a rescue if you walk out under your own power?Well, if you call 911, and Rangers/SAR/Wardens have to come in to bring you water and gear, and then guide you out of the woods, only then being able to walk out under your own power, well, yeah, it's a rescue.

[cmoulder]

Is it really a rescue if you walk out under your own power?
If you can't get out by yourself and somebody has to bring gear, water and food to facilitate your extraction, it's a rescue.

[LoneStranger]

You folks are forgetting the most important part. The SaR team broke the trail they hiked them out on. Breaking trail in deep snow is much harder than following a path someone else broke out.

It's just walking...until there's five feet of snow on the trail ;)

[Wolf - 23000]

Is it really a rescue if you walk out under your own power?

As 4eyedbuzzard pointed out, since they did call 911, it involved sending out rangers/SAR/Wardens trekking out with additional gear, water, and other necessities to get someone out. Yes, the two idiots were able to hike out under their own power, but they called for assistance to get them out. In Maine, when that wind picks up at night, it becomes extremely difficult to navigate.People often overlook the resue teams are risking their lives. Even trained professionals can have things go very wrong. It is not cheap to organize a rescue team. There are many more people involved than just the people on the ground. That is money that could have been used to help preserve our wilderness for future generations. It is taking away from future generations when money has to be wasted because someone was not prepared.

Wolf

[peakbagger]

Sometimes it goes very bad for the rescuer

https://www.wmur.com/article/mountain-rescuer-who-died-in-1982-avalanche-honored-in-ceremony-atop-mount-washington/22761874

[cmoulder]

You folks are forgetting the most important part. The SaR team broke the trail they hiked them out on. Breaking trail in deep snow is much harder than following a path someone else broke out.

It's just walking...until there's five feet of snow on the trail ;)

And that's with snowshoes. I've not read anywhere about whether or not they had them. "Without proper gear" implies this but it's not stated.

If they were postholing without them, they would have been in seriously deep doo-doo. Even with snowshoes it's frequently hard to average over 1mph and sometimes it's much less. On one occasion it took 3 friends and me 6hr45min to travel 3.3 miles from Mt. Guyot to Zealand Hut in the Whites... with snowshoes, of course.

[Raid]

Y'all are pretty harsh in your judgement. I mean, "Darwin Award was Interrupted..." and "LOL, yep still in the gene pool :-" are pretty cruel for a couple of people that made a mistake and had to call for help. If I read the story correctly, they walked back to their car and were uninjured. It may be a good object lesson, but I'm disappointed in the casual cruelty of the comments. As a community, we can be better.
I agree. There may be more to this story, the media doesn't always tell it correctly. Even if it is accurate, its this type of condemnation that makes people unwilling to try new things. Or to reach out to "experts" and ask for advice. I also understand that rescuers were put in danger and there may be a cost to the tax payers for this, but I don't think we need to continue to bash these people. I think its more helpful to also provide some advice, some of what was posted here. Such as, don't just carry what you think you need for a day hike, carry something for overnight also, just in case. That make sense, now take it one step further, it would be nice to see discussion on what a person might take for an emergency overnight.


[/QUOTE]

[Traveler]

Y'all are pretty harsh in your judgement. I mean, "Darwin Award was Interrupted..." and "LOL, yep still in the gene pool :-" are pretty cruel for a couple of people that made a mistake and had to call for help. If I read the story correctly, they walked back to their car and were uninjured. It may be a good object lesson, but I'm disappointed in the casual cruelty of the comments. As a community, we can be better.
[/QUOTE]

Nature can be far harsher in it's indifference that brings an old axiom to centerstage, "better to be mocked than mourned". Feelings are not facts. These two didn't walk out on their own, they clearly had little concept of what they were doing and their misadventure required a rescue team to risk life and limb to find and escort them out. That they were ambulatory is a nice end to a difficult rescue, their plight could have more easily turned into a recovery had a few more hours passed.

We read stories about people who are totally unprepared for conditions they insist pursuing, many of them perish, some are miraculously rescued and brought to safety. "Not Without Peril" is a book anyone looking at hiking in the White Mountains should read that tell the tale of people who have died in those mountains, some having far more experience than most who made several decisions that individually could have been survived, but collectively doomed them as the chain of events leading to their demise was forged.

There are reams of material to prepare for hiking in various conditions and terrain. Though I have never seen any material that recommends a day hike these two attempted in the Mahoosuc Mountains, in the dead of winter, without appropriate gear and provisions, I have to wonder if they even had matches. These are some of the most difficult mountains in the eastern United States in summer. In winter, even with snowshoes, trying to bust trail while negotiating high rock fall walls, unstable snow drifts that can bury a person, and blazes that quickly blend into the winterscape and can disorientate even the most expert of us, much like the proverbial Sirens calling sailors to their death. It is clear they did not understand what they were walking into. Much like the aviation community, the hiking community reviews these events to better understand how it occurred and how best to avoid a similar outcome. Sometimes there are caustic comments made. Eh, in the scope of the event that's pretty minor. Better to be mocked than mourned.

[LoneStranger]

And that's with snowshoes. I've not read anywhere about whether or not they had them. "Without proper gear" implies this but it's not stated.

If they were postholing without them, they would have been in seriously deep doo-doo. Even with snowshoes it's frequently hard to average over 1mph and sometimes it's much less. On one occasion it took 3 friends and me 6hr45min to travel 3.3 miles from Mt. Guyot to Zealand Hut in the Whites... with snowshoes, of course.
Oh I assumed they had to have had snowshoes to get as far as they did. As you say, 1mph is doing pretty well with shoes going up and down mountains. Without they wouldn't have made the first summit. I figured the proper gear they were missing was camping gear to spend the night because almost no one is doing that traverse in one Winter day.

[Night Train]

IMHO, Yes, If you have to call for a rescue and S&R folks need to respond to the site, its a rescue. S&R folks had to mobilize and that can be inherently risky. Granted the outcome was good, but no doubt in cold winter conditions the Incident commander had to assume that it could turn into a carryout. I would not be surprised if there may have been 20 or 30 S&R folks contacted to be ready to respond.
Excellent narrative, Is it safe to assume the 20 or so rescuers represent several different agencies? If so, under the incident command system (ICS), unified command is established, in this particular case what agency becomes the IC?

[peakbagger]

I am more familar with NH but the early years of North Woods law show Maine Game Wardens running rescues. They pull in wardens from other parts of the state to assist. There are volunteer rescue organizations that will be put on alert to assist. Ideally the volunteers are trained to a known standard. This link to MASAR that coordinates the 15 volunteer rescue groups may be of interest. I believe that Maine still has an interesting statute on the books that Wardens can compel members of the public to participate in a rescue. Probably left over from the days of lost hunter drills where a lot of people were needed to do area searches. I have not read the book but a private individual wrote about the effort to find Gerry Largey "inchworm" who got lost in the same area a few years back and ended badly that may have details. I remember at the time of the initial S&R that they relied on qualified volunteers as the terrain was gnarly and the wardens were concerned that the one S&R event could morph into multiple rescues if unqualified poorly equipped volunteers headed into the woods.

[Alligator]

Excellent narrative, Is it safe to assume the 20 or so rescuers represent several different agencies? If so, under the incident command system (ICS), unified command is established, in this particular case what agency becomes the IC?Is your question perhaps imprecise? A unified command comprised of individuals from multiple agencies would act with one voice so no agency would be the IC. I wouldn't think this particular incident is large enough to merit that. Maybe something like a boat sinking or a train wreck. Probably would just use a single IC, but even then the IC could come from a different agency than the specific agency that might have jurisdiction. Depends on who shows up and who is available. I don't know with SAR but if a medical situation developed during the rescue, it might turn into an incident within an incident. Then you might have two IC's (but that's not really your question).

[HooKooDooKu]

Excellent narrative, Is it safe to assume the 20 or so rescuers represent several different agencies? If so, under the incident command system (ICS), unified command is established, in this particular case what agency becomes the IC?
Many years ago, a gentleman fell of Chimney Tops in Great Smoky Mountains while trying to film with his camcorder (just to give a clue of how long ago).
After offering what assistance I could to the family and first responder, I started the two mile hike back down the mountain where I counted 21 rescue personnel (and a stretcher on a wheel) heading up the mountain.

That story is also a get example of why you shouldn't even take a day hike without being prepared for an extended stay in the back country.
I would estimate the accident occurred around 2:00 to 3:00, and took about an hour for the first responder to arrive.
(Apparently someone had a cell phone, but WOW that was still quick given the drive PLUS a 2 mile hike with a 1,500' elevation gain).
So it was 3:30 to 4:30 before I left the scene, the sun going down, and it was already starting to get chilly.
The family didn't have any extra cloths (I believe I heard someone mention the teenage daughter had to take off her bra so so they had something to use as a bandage), and it was going to be well after dark before they were going to be getting back to the trail head.
{BTW: I left the wife and daughter the Space Blanket (https://www.rei.com/product/407106/space-all-weather-blanket) and plastic poncho I always carried on day-hikes to help keep them warm}

[BobTheBuilder]

So, how idiotic and irresponsible does someone have to be to earn your derision?

LOL - I honestly don't know. I try to save my derision for those that are gratuitously unpleasant.

[RockDoc]

After a lifetime of hiking I also have harrowing stories to tell, most of which had nothing to do with experience level or gear carried. If you do this enough, you too will have stories to tell. But I've also seen competent climbers killed in the mountains. One fell through a cornice on a summit crowded with hikers, and one (called the best climber of his generation) was killed by a huge avalanche in China. It's the mountains, folks. There are a lot of variables that we cannot control (that's the challenge, if not the fun).

Thinking back on that stretch in Maine though, I agree that 1 mph is a reasonable average pace for older hikers in tough weather. At that pace, they didn't have time to do the hike safely.