View Full Version : What stove to use on the Appalachian Trail
Over the last 2 years it seems the trend in stoves being used are canister stoves. Jetboils being the most popular.
What is the stove you currently will be using?
Soto Windmaster Stove w/ Tri Support, Titan Kettle Pot 0.85 Liter, & MSR Folding Spoon.
Follows 7 years of alcohol stove usage. Want to do something different.
Have you given any thought to a Jetboil?
TJ aka Teej
04-07-2022, 10:34
I've owned/used just about every kind stove available over the last 40 years.
Pocket Rocket works best for me.
I've owned/used just about every kind stove available over the last 40 years.
Pocket Rocket works best for me.
What didn't you like about the Jetboils?
ScottTrip
04-07-2022, 10:58
I used a Pocket Rocket on my hike in 2016 but I would say that the Jet Boil was the most popular back then.
HooKooDooKu
04-07-2022, 11:26
Pocket Rocket:
The 1st cannister stove I tried was the Pocket Rocket. I didn't like it because of how unstable things felt (and I did knock over a few pots).
LiteMax:
The next cannister stove I tried and used for years was the SnowPeak LiteMax. It folds down much smaller than the Pocket Rocket, and the pot seemed to be more stable, even though the span of the support arms are about the same. The key difference is that the arms of the LiteMax lay flat. By contrast, the Pocket Rocket has slopped arms so your pot only rests on the very tips of the arm.
SOTO WindMaster
This year I'm trying the SOTO WindMaster with 4 arms. It got good reviews. Among it's positive points:
1. The burner is concave in shape providing some amount of natural wind resistance. By contrast, the LiteMax has burners on the sides leaving the side towards the wind totally exposed. The PocketRocket includes a Y-shaped wind screen in the middle of the burner, but that means some part of the burner is always left exposed to the wind.
2. Regulated - The output of the WindMaster is regulated, so the amount of fuel burned remains the same as pressure changes in the canister. The LiteMax and Pocket Rocket are NOT regulated.
3. Great Cold Performane - I just used the WindMaster last week where the morning temperatures were low to mid 30s. I didn't do anything special to keep my canister warm (actually formed ice crystals while in use) and the stove performed great.
4. Option of 4 arms... Don't have enough practical experience to know for sure, but it seems like a stove with 4 arms will leave the pot more stable to tipping than one with 3 arms.
About the only down side is that the stove is much larger than the LiteMax when you go to pack it. But you have the option to easily remove the arms if that makes packing better (but the 'cup' that is the burner is much larger and is simply going to require more room).
JetBoil:
Along the way, I've tried the JetBoil and usually didn't use it because of weight. Most of my trips are 2 night hikes, so the "efficiency" of the stove/pot doesn't makeup for it's additional weight.
But when I thru-hiked the JMT, efficiency became a bigger need. I used the modern equivalent of the MicroMo (actually an SOL aluminum cup paired with the MiniMo stove that claims to have better cold-temperature performance).
I would say that I averaged boiling two cups of water per day on that trip plus warming up some "bath water" (I took sponge baths each night to get sun screen oils off before getting in my tent/sleeping bag). On day 4, I purchased a small canister at Red's, and then anther on day 8 at MTR. The one I purchased at Red's lasted thru the end of the trip on day 18. That night, I had to burn the stove at full blast for 10 minutes to burn off the fuel that remained so that I could safely dispose of the cannister (flying home, couldn't take it with me... the full one I was able to give to a local at the exit trailhead).
In my opinion, of these stoves, if you only need to boil water, the JetBoil seems best for long hikes, and the SOTO WindMaster for short trips.
With the increasing prohibitions on "open flame" stoves, I bought my first canister stove to add to my white gas, alcohol, esbit, and wood burning options. I went with a Soto Amicus and the Ocelot wind screen from Flat Cat Gear to conserve fuel. A good friend of mine who is a serious mountaineer and often camps suspended from cliffs loves the Jetboil because he can lock the pot to the stove. Not important to me, so I favor the Amicus as a very reliable and lightweight canister stove. YMMV. :)
Odd Man Out
04-07-2022, 13:32
I use a Jet Boil Stash pot with a MYOG eCHS alcohol stove, but will use the Jet Boil burner if I go someplace alcohol is not allowed or available. I cook in my pot so did not consider other Jet Boil systems. The Stash is more like a conventional pot/stove combo vs the other Jet Boils that are mostly used as water boilers for FBC.
Kaptainkriz
04-07-2022, 13:33
I flip back and forth between a caldera cone/toaks 550 and a BRS3000/550 setup. Been playing with an inferno mug and an ocelot-hx… does not pack down as nice as the 550, so will probably revert back soon.
Canister stove with a pot cozy is the best system I've found in 50 years of backpacking.
With the increasing prohibitions on "open flame" stoves, I bought my first canister stove to add to my white gas, alcohol, esbit, and wood burning options. :)
Burners/stoves that have absorbing material in them that prevent spilage are favorable to Park Rangers out west. I personally got approval from a Park Ranger in the Sequoia National Park in California to use a no spill Starlyte Stove. On another backpacking site there were 2 people that got approval also by asking the officials where they usually hiked.
49232...awsomeness
cmoulder
04-08-2022, 08:54
Sterno Inferno with Groove Stove (alcohol). Not the lightest but certainly fastest, very wind resistant and Heet is widely available.
For borderline SUL there's the Esbit tri-wing and Toaks 550. Complete cook kit (stove, windscreen, pot, lid, cup, spoon, lighter and stuff sack) is 128g and fuel per day is 28g.
For winter, the Sterno Inferno and FMS-300/Ocelot plate (https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php/161577-FlatCatGear-UL-canister-stove-adapter-(Ocelot)-with-Sterno-Inferno) are hard to beat for a canister setup.
Slo-go'en
04-08-2022, 10:00
I'm sticking with the Caldera cone and alki stove for my upcoming LASH. (NOBO from Harpers Ferry to ?) I'm also considering carrying my "Snow Peak" burner for back up since it's small and doesn't weigh much, just in case I can't find yellow heat, but can find a canister.
I flip between a Sterno Inferno with an alcohol stove (very effective) or a canister stove (an old Primus), depending on length of trip, mood, consultation with the oracle, and the reading of the tea leaves.
Market research, Zelph?
Question:
The fire season warnings and instructions that I have read from various Government sources clearly stipulated “A stove with a positive ON-OFF valve.” Examples: SVEA white gas or propane canister like Jetboil or Pocket Rocket.
Many of the stoves mentioned above do not meet these requirements. How do y’all get around the stated rules?
Wayne
gpburdelljr
04-08-2022, 12:26
Question:
The fire season warnings and instructions that I have read from various Government sources clearly stipulated “A stove with a positive ON-OFF valve.” Examples: SVEA white gas or propane canister like Jetboil or Pocket Rocket.
Many of the stoves mentioned above do not meet these requirements. How do y’all get around the stated rules?
Wayne
Are there any sections of the AT with restrictions on the type of stove allowed? Are there seasonal restrictions on parts of the AT?
HooKooDooKu
04-08-2022, 14:21
Are there any sections of the AT with restrictions on the type of stove allowed? Are there seasonal restrictions on parts of the AT?
Generally no...
But Whiteblaze has been a destination site for more than just AT hikers. (There's entire sub-sections devoted to other trails and other recreational areas).
Out west (California) this can be a major issue as the state has much stronger restrictions that you will see in the east.
FYI: You can't even light a cannister stove in the CA back country without a permit. The permit is an easy to obtain-self administered test. But the point being, to light a stove in CA you need a permit.
I should clarify:
I am talking about high probability of forest fire conditions. When open campfires are forbidden and only stoves with positive shut off controls are allowed.
I bring it up because the entire state of North Carolina has had at least one, possibly 2, FULL STATE FIRE BANS in the last 6 months. Approximately. We had a wildfire in Pilot Mountain State Park. The fire originated in an illegal campsite caused by an illegal open campfire. You obviously can’t fix STUPID.
BE SAFE Y’all!
Wayne
Alligator
04-08-2022, 14:25
Are there any sections of the AT with restrictions on the type of stove allowed? Are there seasonal restrictions on parts of the AT?Venchka is just responding to the earlier posters (OP included) and probably missed the AT part in the thread title.
On the AT, I don't recall encountering any restrictions on the type or seasonal restrictions. Were there any fire restrictions around the times of the Gatlinburg fire? An exception to that might be using wood burning stoves in areas where no fires are allowed, would be useful to know one way or the other. Barring any restrictions, I use whatever stove I feel like using based on the trip.
Question:
The fire season warnings and instructions that I have read from various Government sources clearly stipulated “A stove with a positive ON-OFF valve.” Examples: SVEA white gas or propane canister like Jetboil or Pocket Rocket.
Many of the stoves mentioned above do not meet these requirements. How do y’all get around the stated rules?
Wayne
In my case of using a Starlyte Stove.....I showed it to the Park Official and he approved. That was about 5 years ago. Rules have changed no doubt. If the Starlyte stove was to fall on the ground and had to put it out in an emergency, my foot could stomp it out in a second. :D If a caninster stove should fall to the ground it would take more than a few seconds to get down there and shut it off. :-? In a Starlyte or Kojin type stove/burner the fuel does not splash out ;)
HooKooDooKu
04-08-2022, 17:00
Venchka is just responding to the earlier posters (OP included) and probably missed the AT part in the thread title.
On the AT, I don't recall encountering any restrictions on the type or seasonal restrictions. Were there any fire restrictions around the times of the Gatlinburg fire? An exception to that might be using wood burning stoves in areas where no fires are allowed, would be useful to know one way or the other. Barring any restrictions, I use whatever stove I feel like using based on the trip.
At the time of the 2016 Gatlinburg fire, the GSMNP issued an extremely rare "no camp fires" ban.
But I don't recall any bans on the use of stoves.
GSMNP is normally such a rain forest, I doubt the park service ever went so are as to differentiate between a stove with and without a shutoff.
Seems like they didn't even ban charcoal fires, just wood burning camp fires. But I can't say with 100% certainty, I rarely camp at the front country campsites.
One Half
04-08-2022, 17:19
Jetboil MicroMo. boiling water in minutes.
I didn’t miss the AT mention.
I must admit that after experiencing Burn Bans in northeast Texas and the Rockies, the state of North Carolina was lax by comparison in announcing the state wide burn bans.
Be careful Y’all! Even the eastern rain forest can burn!
Wayne
Alligator
04-08-2022, 18:07
I didn’t miss the AT mention.
I must admit that after experiencing Burn Bans in northeast Texas and the Rockies, the state of North Carolina was lax by comparison in announcing the state wide burn bans.
Be careful Y’all! Even the eastern rain forest can burn!
WayneSorry your post wasn't up yet (#21) when I was responding and I didn't see it after I posted.
Eastern US the climate is generally much wetter and rainfall more regular than out west. Yes there are fires but they are not nearly the same scope as out west. They are smaller and less frequent. Restrictions on burning get put in but like I said, I can't recall anything regarding a stove restriction. Sometimes the burning bans are just time of day as well, not a complete ban.
cmoulder
04-08-2022, 18:55
I've read about campfire bans but not about stove restrictions, requiring a certain type, etc, here in the NE.
I've read about campfire bans but not about stove restrictions, requiring a certain type, etc, here in the NE.
That’s good to know.
I apologize for overreacting.
I live in a relatively remote part of NW North Carolina. In a VERY thick forest with several years worth of leaves on the ground. I take very low humidity and very high winds VERY SERIOUSLY!
Enough of that. Be safe. Be fire aware.
Get outside and have fun! Safely!
Wayne
Slo-go'en
04-08-2022, 20:35
Any type of stove has the potential to start a fire, if it malfunctions or is miss-used. I can think of situations where having an off switch isn't going to help much if you can't get near it. (Out of control white gas stove)
Doing the simple task of clearing the area around the stove of anything which might catch on fire (leaves) greatly reduces the risk of an accident getting out of control.
I have the original, discontinued jetboil it's a beast yes boils water in minutes. I use on my section hikes.
Other stoves various alcohol I made , Esbit and woodstove.
I like playing with fire and I like the versatility of cooking methods. I even have a system to cook on the side of a tree to keep me out of snow ,mudd etc.
Why did they discontinue this stove? Was it because of heat exchanger issues?
cmoulder
04-09-2022, 06:46
Why did they discontinue this stove? Was it because of heat exchanger issues?
If you're referring to the Ti Sol, yes there were some HX problems possibly due to dissimilar metals being welded. The pot is Ti, the fins Al, and Ti doesn't diffuse heat as well as Al does.
However, I say 'possibly' because many people used them for a long time with no problems and some people are still using them. I'd speculate that in some (likely most... all...??) cases people accidentally boiled off all the water and ran them dry and managed to burn up the HX fins, which can happen with any pot. OR, they tried to actually cook in them, which they are not designed for. (Heat dissipation through semi-solid and thick liquids is inefficient, which is why foods burn.) Now, most pots can tolerate a little bit of overheating like this, but not a lot, and it might be that the Ti Sol can tolerate none due to the materials issue mentioned above. Those people whose Ti Sol pots are still working probably never accidentally ran them dry or tried to cook food in them.
If you're referring to the Ti Sol, yes there were some HX problems possibly due to dissimilar metals being welded. The pot is Ti, the fins Al, and Ti doesn't diffuse heat as well as Al does.
However, I say 'possibly' because many people used them for a long time with no problems and some people are still using them. I'd speculate that in some (likely most... all...??) cases people accidentally boiled off all the water and ran them dry and managed to burn up the HX fins, which can happen with any pot. OR, they tried to actually cook in them, which they are not designed for. (Heat dissipation through semi-solid and thick liquids is inefficient, which is why foods burn.) Now, most pots can tolerate a little bit of overheating like this, but not a lot, and it might be that the Ti Sol can tolerate none due to the materials issue mentioned above. Those people whose Ti Sol pots are still working probably never accidentally ran them dry or tried to cook food in them.
Thank you for this great explanation:)
I've never ran mine dry or cooked in it. It's still going strong screaming and burning like a F-16 fighter jet taking off on after burners!!
I used the Jetboil stash. Worked just fine. On 4.5 month thru, I went thru 5-6 small cans. Cup of coffee in the morning, either a dehydrated meal or mashed potatoes (with Fritos) at night. Fairly average number of town stops, below average zeros. Followed Phil Werner’s advice on keeping burner on the lower side for fuel efficiency.
Had used Flash before, and valued the speed and simplicity over alcohol lightness.
Had used Flash before, and valued the speed and simplicity over alcohol lightness.
I get the impression that speed is the major reason for the canisters stoves. It's the JET FACTOR :D
I get the impression that speed is the major reason for the canisters stoves. It's the JET FACTOR :D
^^ THIS^^
And I like the way the small canister of gas and stove fits in the pot and lasts me all week on my section hikes.
^^ THIS^^
And I like the way the small canister of gas and stove fits in the pot and lasts me all week on my section hikes.
The faster it heats up, the faster you can get back to the soft sounds of nature around you......Ohhhh the long lost quietness of an aclcohol stove :D
I do like the recent discoveries being made with heat exchange pots coupled with the addition of heat exchange fins going up the entire length of the pot. I look forward to experiments this spring and summer. The Jetboils have inspired me...let the thinking lead to discoveries. :-?
The faster it heats up, the faster you can get back to the soft sounds of nature around you......Ohhhh the long lost quietness of an aclcohol stove :D
I do like the recent discoveries being made with heat exchange pots coupled with the addition of heat exchange fins going up the entire length of the pot. I look forward to experiments this spring and summer. The Jetboils have inspired me...let the thinking lead to discoveries. :-?
Yes I concur I prefer the softer side of nature sounds for sure.
I didn't know they were experimenting in vertical heating exchangers. Makes perfect sense, bringing heat right up the pot no waste.
This reminds of me when I've used my alcohol or Esbit in combination of my woods stove and tall stainless Walmart pot the flames shoot straight up the sides of the pot and super heat to boil!
And I truly look forward to your future endeavors bring it brother!!
I snagged the all Aluminum pot JetBoil Sol below half price as Gander Mountain was closing. Great water boiler for freeze dried meals. Ridiculously fuel miserly!
Wayne
I snagged the all Aluminum pot JetBoil Sol below half price as Gander Mountain was closing. Great water boiler for freeze dried meals. Ridiculously fuel miserly!
Wayne
Interesting on the Gander Mountain closing aspect part of this discussion, did they close down everywhere? I asked because the new gym I joined used to be a Gander Mountain.
cmoulder
04-10-2022, 07:57
Yes I concur I prefer the softer side of nature sounds for sure.
I didn't know they were experimenting in vertical heating exchangers. Makes perfect sense, bringing heat right up the pot no waste.
This reminds of me when I've used my alcohol or Esbit in combination of my woods stove and tall stainless Walmart pot the flames shoot straight up the sides of the pot and super heat to boil!
MSR has sold a vertical heat exchanger for a few decades now. OK it's ponderously heavy and clunky, and I don't really believe it adds all that much efficiency, at least not the way it is designed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h2NRomweuc). The bottom flux rings make a lot more sense, along with a snug windscreen that goes up the side of the pot for some distance. And the neoprene covers on JB pots actually do help retain heat.
https://www.sunnysports.com/Image/Product/Large/MSRHE.jpg
The Moulder Strip is very efficient at transferring heat to the sides of a canister of fuel to increase it's efficiency.
Five Tango
04-10-2022, 17:12
My all time favorite setup is the Beaded Caldera Cone F Keg coupled with the Starlyte XL3.Quiet,stable so as not to scald anyone,impossible to spill the fuel(I spilled a Fancee Feast once and ruined a Frogg Tog and down jacket).For someone who only wants to do hot drinks and Freezer Bag cooking it is hard to beat because of the weight,practicality,and the fact that the Caldera Caddy serves as a coozey and a drinking cup.My configuration with homemade insulation weighs in at around 10 ounces with a long neck cigar lighter in the mix.Did I mention that its Quiet?I got quite a few negative comments regarding my BRS stove......
Beaded Caldera Cone F Keg coupled with the Starlyte XL3.Quiet,stable so as not to scald anyone,impossible to spill the fuel
That is a really nice set-up. I like quiet :)
I got quite a few negative comments regarding my BRS stove......
I've read a lot of negative comments from folks over at BPL about the BRS's...on the otherhand, lots of good comments on the Fancee Feest.
I've had good results with the Etekcity canister stove.
HooKooDooKu
04-10-2022, 20:48
The Moulder Strip is very efficient at transferring heat to the sides of a canister of fuel to increase it's efficiency.
How does a Moulder Strip improve efficiency?
I understand the idea that in cold weather, the strip makes sure the fuel stays warm enough so that the fuel continues to vaporize and therefore burn. But I'm not sure how that improves efficiency. Increases the pressure? Sure. But if you're using a "regulated" stove, the output should remain fixed regardless of the pressure in the canister (presuming the pressure isn't getting below "working" pressure).
Five Tango
04-11-2022, 08:36
That is a really nice set-up. I like quiet :)
I've read a lot of negative comments from folks over at BPL about the BRS's...on the otherhand, lots of good comments on the Fancee Feest.
I've had good results with the Etekcity canister stove.
Not saying that I don't like my Fancee Feast.But I had a sooted up bottom on a pot that it stuck to until it didn't when I lifted the pot up and then the "fun" started.Fancee Feast is a Ford Model T compared to a Thunderbird once the Starlyte XL3 hit the market.Only downside is that it requires a stand of some sort but that's not that big of a deal for some of us...
Interesting on the Gander Mountain closing aspect part of this discussion, did they close down everywhere? I asked because the new gym I joined used to be a Gander Mountain.
The Gander Mountain store where I shopped was in Tyler, TX. I would check the stove section whenever I was in the store. The SOL was never on sale. Finally, they put up the everything half price signs. I got the last Sol they had. When I got home I realized that a piece was missing: the pot adapter. I have a lot of pots and that piece was important to me. I called JetBoil. Explained the missing piece. They mailed a replacement quickly.
Fuel consumption: On a road trip with my granddaughter, I boiled water for 3 Mountain House 2 person dinners with a canister holding 9 grams of fuel. AND. The water boiled faster than I was ready for it!
Wayne
Not saying that I don't like my Fancee Feast.But I had a sooted up bottom on a pot that it stuck to until it didn't when I lifted the pot up and then the "fun" started.
Thanks for negative comment on the FF :D;):p
Sooted pot bottoms are a PITA. Early on in the development of the FF someone had the stove stick to a clean pot. It caused me to add vent holes to the pot support to resolve the problem. It's the same problem that occured with the Jim Woods SuperCat stove.
How does a Moulder Strip improve efficiency?
I understand the idea that in cold weather, the strip makes sure the fuel stays warm enough so that the fuel continues to vaporize and therefore burn. But I'm not sure how that improves efficiency. Increases the pressure? Sure. But if you're using a "regulated" stove, the output should remain fixed regardless of the pressure in the canister (presuming the pressure isn't getting below "working" pressure).
Let's ask cmoulder (https://whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php/53324-cmoulder) what he thinks about the increase of efficiency.....cmoulder come on in!:)
Five Tango
04-11-2022, 11:39
Thanks for negative comment on the FF :D;):p
Sooted pot bottoms are a PITA. Early on in the development of the FF someone had the stove stick to a clean pot. It caused me to add vent holes to the pot support to resolve the problem. It's the same problem that occured with the Jim Woods SuperCat stove.
I love my FF but now that the XL3 is in my pack it has become a moot point.Also like my original style Starlytes of which I have several including the classic one with the built in wire pot stand.Caldera Cone is my windscreen and pot stand now.Gas cannisters are great but they just aren't like cooking with alcohol........
I'm going to retract my my statement that the Moulder Strip is efficient since he has not added any info to support my comment.
cmoulder
04-12-2022, 06:50
I'm going to retract my my statement that the Moulder Strip is efficient since he has not added any info to support my comment.
Sorry, got busy with other stuff... going for a quick overnighter myself to play with stuff in the woods! :D
Since we're talking about the efficiency of transferring heat from burner to (and specifically into) the pot, the HX strip from burner to canister is really a different beast.
In the case of the copper HX strip you're really not looking for maximum efficiency, i.e. transferring as much heat as possible, but rather just enough heat to keep fuel vaporization going but not enough to overheat the canister. So it involves energy management, although in a different way.
But if you're using a "regulated" stove, the output should remain fixed regardless of the pressure in the canister (presuming the pressure isn't getting below "working" pressure).
Regulators are a bit of a gimmick IMO. They work in a very small temperature range, above which they aren't needed and below which they don't work... as you alluded to, if there's no pressure there's nothing to regulate.
Another vote for Fancee Feest stoves.
Since we're talking about the efficiency of transferring heat from burner to (and specifically into) the pot, the HX strip from burner to canister is really a different beast.
We were talking about metal transferring heat to the sides of a metal container. Fins on the bottom, fins on the side, metal transferring heat, works the same on the bottom as it does on the sides. The Bulin HX pot is a good example of some metal on the sides of the pot doing some transfer.
I like the size of the MiniMo pot, anyone use this size for cooking?
49261
49262
HooKooDooKu
04-14-2022, 00:53
I own a MinoMo, and would have liked to have used it on my JMT thru hike. But with the way I was packing my pack with a very large bear canister, the pot was too wide to fit in my pack and so I instead used the pot from my JetBoil Sol. But most of my hikes are just two-night trips where I don't need the efficiency of the JetBoil to save fuel and so I use lighter weight pots.
cmoulder
04-14-2022, 08:27
We were talking about metal transferring heat to the sides of a metal container. Fins on the bottom, fins on the side, metal transferring heat, works the same on the bottom as it does on the sides. The Bulin HX pot is a good example of some metal on the sides of the pot doing some transfer.
Definitely agree with the metal-to-metal heat transfer, and increasing surface area with both the pleated fins and the shroud, and channeling heat up the sides of the pot. That combo is the way to achieve max heat transfer.
cmoulder
04-14-2022, 08:32
I have a couple of Minimos but use them only in the winter for melting snow. Even then, if snow melting needs are minimal I'll go with the Sterno Inferno and Ocelot/FMS-300.
Other times I do not need the volume and heat output and use alcohol or Esbit.
49263
Sorry, got busy with other stuff... going for a quick overnighter myself to play with stuff in the woods! :D
Regulators are a bit of a gimmick IMO.
What makes you think it's a gimmick?
cmoulder
04-15-2022, 08:43
What makes you think it's a gimmick?
I've used both Minimo (regulated) and Flash (non-regulated) extensively in those ambient temps and flame settings where the regulator is claimed to help. I never noticed more than a teensy-weensy bit of difference, and once the canister cooled a bit even that little 'advantage' went poof!
As usual, the JB claim is steady output as the temperature drops, and, as I say, there's nothing to regulate without adequate pressure.
My observations led me to the simple conclusion "They work in a very small temperature range, above which they aren't needed and below which they don't work." Not even the great Roger Caffin has disputed that. :rolleyes:
In fact, here's Caffin's take (https://backpackinglight.com/pressure_regulators_myth_part1/) on it.
HooKooDooKu
04-15-2022, 08:56
I've used both Minimo (regulated) and Flash (non-regulated) extensively in those ambient temps and flame settings where the regulator is claimed to help. I never noticed more than a teensy-weensy bit of difference, and once the canister cooled a bit even that little 'advantage' went poof!
As usual, the JB claim is steady output as the temperature drops, and, as I say, there's nothing to regulate without adequate pressure.
My observations led me to the simple conclusion "They work in a very small temperature range, above which they aren't needed and below which they don't work." Not even the great Roger Caffin has disputed that. :rolleyes:
In fact, here's Caffin's take (https://backpackinglight.com/pressure_regulators_myth_part1/) on it.
:( Other than the synopsis, it's behind a pay wall
cmoulder
04-15-2022, 09:02
:( Other than the synopsis, it's behind a pay wall
Yep, welcome to BPL.
Hey, when you own the sandbox... :) Not sure if the basic membership unlocks the articles.
cmoulder
04-15-2022, 09:28
https://www.msrgear.com/blog/technology-stove-pressure-regulators-work/
Here's their chart:
https://www.msrgear.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/MSR-Boil-Speed-vs-Time-Chart.jpg
What's missing? AMBIENT TEMPERATURE, FUEL MIX, FUEL LEVEL, OUTPUT LEVEL If TEMP were inserted where TIME appears in the chart, we'd see all the performance lines scrunched into a very small area around 20°F. This is an example of how data can be manipulated to show whatever you want it to show.
What started me on the whole quest to understand and improve cold-weather canister stove performance was my experience with the Reactor. It was touted as a great winter stove. So I bought one and the first time I used it the temp was 5°F and was sorely disappointed to find it didn't work any better than my Snow Peak Giga... barely eeked out enough warm water for morning coffee. It didn't take long to figure out that the issue is not regulating output but keeping the canister warm enough to vaporize the fuel.
Roger and BPL are all about CLICK BAIT CLICK BAIT CLICK BAIT :D
49266
https://www.msrgear.com/blog/technology-stove-pressure-regulators-work/
I quote from cmoulder (https://whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php/53324-cmoulder) link:
(quote)
When the temp drops to 50°F, canister pressure drops to 30 psi. As you run your stove, your canister cools further, easily dropping to 22 psi. And on that cool fall morning (40°F), your stove may only be putting out less than 60% of its power.
In contrast, MSR’s pressure-regulated stoves are designed to run at full output at just 15 psi (Reactor) and 16.5 psi (WindBurner and PocketRocket Deluxe). The regulator ensures the stove receives that precise pressure regardless of the real pressure inside the canister.
It’s only when your canister is nearly empty or the conditions are extremely cold that the pressure will finally drop below the limit of the pressure regulator and you’ll notice a performance drop.
HOW PRESSURE REGULATORS IMPROVE CANISTER STOVE BOIL TIMES
Most backpacking stoves aren’t pressure-regulated. So as their canister pressure drops, their output also declines (https://www.outdoors.org/resources/amc-outdoors/gear/why-do-canister-stoves-fail-in-cold/). A stove with a regulator, in contrast, isn’t hindered by that drop in canister pressure (remember it’s designed to operate optimally at a very low pressure and the regulator maintains that pressure). Because of this, you enjoy fast boil times regardless of what’s happening to the canister.
In other words, the regulator keeps your stove cranking at full output across a wider range of conditions and scenarios—hot days, colder days, full canister, low canister and everything in between.
It also means that when your canister is low, the stove isn’t struggling. This saves you fuel. Therefore, a pressure regulator also boosts the efficiency of your stove, which means you can carry less fuel.
cmoulder
04-15-2022, 13:44
The thing is, maintaining vapor pressure in the canister renders all of that—and more—moot.
What is "more"? Specifically fuel mix and fuel level. Some of these manufacturers have "winter," "all-season" and "summer" formulations with various percentages of propane and isobutane, and sometimes N-butane for the "summer" blends. Jetboil has even claimed that their formula is a special proprietary blend. They all come in a range of 20-30% propane and 70-80% isobutane, with N-butane substituted for some of the isobutane in the "summer" blend.
What a hoot. After the propane burns off and the canister is down to about 50-60%, they're all about the same.
Just about anybody you talk to with a modicum of stove savvy will tell you that N-butane will not work in the winter. I use it all the time, just this past January in the Adirondacks at -15°F.
Keep the canister warm enough and the rest is unalloyed marketing foof.
Don't keep the canister warm enough and they all stop working.
cmoulder (https://whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php/53324-cmoulder), I'm reminded of what you said....."It's a gimmick"
It's not a gimmick, they told you (us) what the stove is capable of at low temperatures.
I have a "Reactor" and I'm well pleased with it. I use 70% propane canisters with it to melt snow and cook with it. I use a remote feed set-up.
I introduced to BPL viewers canisters of 70% propane for low winter temperatures. Are people using them???? No reports at all this past winter. Nobody listens:D
The "regulators" in the Reactor type stoves work!!!
(Edit to show Reactor)
Reactor in a simmer mode using remote feed:
49267
cmoulder
04-15-2022, 16:21
We'll have to agree to disagree on the gimmick part.
BUT, if it worked as advertised you wouldn't need 70% propane. (vapor temp -44°F) That is a very nice mod you came up with for running propane.
However, it's true that 91.42% of people think canister stoves are no good for very/extreme cold.
Its not your minimo or the size of your pocket rocket it's how you use it :)
BUT, if it worked as advertised you wouldn't need 70% propane.
This is what they advertise:
(quote)
It’s only when your canister is nearly empty or the conditions are extremely cold that the pressure will finally drop below the limit of the pressure regulator and you’ll notice a performance drop.
Its not your minimo or the size of your pocket rocket it's how you use it :)
Too many times it's "Operator Error" and then the blame goes onto the Mfr. :eek:
https://www.msrgear.com/blog/technol...gulators-work/ (https://www.msrgear.com/blog/technology-stove-pressure-regulators-work/)
cmoulder
04-15-2022, 17:52
To me 20 degrees is not extreme cold. And quite frankly they don't mention evaporative cooling which actually raises the minimum temperature quite a bit. Some people are surprised to notice performance diminishing at 40 degrees. Recall the ice that can develop on an almost-empty canister even with ambient temps in the 80s!
As I mentioned before, I'm not saying regulators don't work, but that the useful temp range is so small (with typical commercial canisters... not your 70% propane) as to be practically useless. BUT it could be that many people use them quite a bit in the 40-50 temp range and find it helpful. However, in any event these are not ideal systems for actual cooking and simmering.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
As I mentioned before, I'm not saying regulators don't work, but that the useful temp range is so small (with typical commercial canisters... not your 70% propane) as to be practically useless.
Let's put aside the temperature range thing.....and think about the jet speed in which they heat our water Long Live the Jetboils!!!!:D
Crazy thought, what if jet boil put the same heat exchanger fins around the bottom of the cup as well ? Damn thing would be turbo charged!!!!!
Long Live the jetboils!!!!! :)
A good stove for -31 degrees is an alcohol stove. Shug has been using one for many years. In this recent video he shows the stove in use:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DbiWJV3JSwM
A good stove for -31 degrees is an alcohol stove. Shug has been using one for many years. In this recent video he shows the stove in use:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DbiWJV3JSwM
Reminds me of an AA saying "Kiss" means keep it simple stupid.
It also means kinda ingenious shugs system!!
cmoulder
04-16-2022, 07:41
Let's put aside the temperature range thing.....and think about the jet speed in which they heat our water Long Live the Jetboils!!!!:D
Ha, well I can boil 2 cups of water in 4 minutes with alcohol, so we've come a long way since the old days when it took 8 minutes. :)
At one point I was boiling 3 cups with the Open Country 3-cup pot (a rare classic that is no longer available) and it took 11 minutes or so, during which time I could do other camp chores. No more. Water boils so fast that I can barely get the food packages and cozy prepped for incoming hot!
Yes, good ole multipurpose alcohol.
This Toaks is a "speedster".....49269
Kaptainkriz
04-16-2022, 08:23
Turn that one upside down and the bottom is dished and holds esbit nicely...
Yes, good ole multipurpose alcohol.
This Toaks is a "speedster".....49269
cmoulder
04-16-2022, 08:59
I'm still diggin' the Groove... not as efficient as Toaks but damm cheep n fast n easy to make! An eCHS for klutzes. :D
49271
Turn that one upside down and the bottom is dished and holds esbit nicely...
Thanks for the tip 49272
I'm still diggin' the Groove... not as efficient as Toaks but damm cheep n fast n easy to make! An eCHS for klutzes. :D
49271
That one worked out well for you 49273
https://youtu.be/Yrrm6C9Lrgw
Turn that one upside down and the bottom is dished and holds esbit nicely...
I've burned Esbit on my upside down alchy stoves in combo of my twig stove. So I have options for alcohol, Esbit or free twigs...
I've burned Esbit on my upside down alchy stoves in combo of my twig stove. So I have options for alcohol, Esbit or free twigs...
I like options :D
One Half
04-16-2022, 19:02
Ha, well I can boil 2 cups of water in 4 minutes with alcohol, so we've come a long way since the old days when it took 8 minutes. :)
At one point I was boiling 3 cups with the Open Country 3-cup pot (a rare classic that is no longer available) and it took 11 minutes or so, during which time I could do other camp chores. No more. Water boils so fast that I can barely get the food packages and cozy prepped for incoming hot!
Pshaw! I boil 800mL in just over 2 minutes in my MicroMo. And yes, I use that much at each meal.
Pshaw! I boil 800mL in just over 2 minutes in my MicroMo. And yes, I use that much at each meal.
Interesting the MicroMo:
49274..
....One Half is in the fast lane....:D (when she's driving her bus)...:p
Over the last 2 years it seems the trend in stoves being used are canister stoves. Jetboils being the most popular.
What is the stove you currently will be using?
I love cooking over a wood fire because I can control the heat better while cooking my food slowly. In the case I just want some hot water I use an alcohol stove.
I'm still diggin' the Groove... not as efficient as Toaks but damm cheep n fast n easy to make! An eCHS for klutzes. :D
49271
Dang right.............................
cmoulder
04-17-2022, 07:00
I love cooking over a wood fire because I can control the heat better while cooking my food slowly. In the case I just want some hot water I use an alcohol stove.
On the rare occasions that I have a campfire, it is definitely great for re-heating my morning coffee. :)
49275
Kittyslayer
04-17-2022, 14:38
Yes, good ole multipurpose alcohol.
This Toaks is a "speedster".....49269
Certainly enjoyed my hot cup of coffee on this 27f morning. Not sure the Toaks made me a “speedster” on the trail but at least warmed me up.
Really like the ability to recapture unused alcohol.
Certainly enjoyed my hot cup of coffee on this 27f morning. Not sure the Toaks made me a “speedster” on the trail but at least warmed me up.
Really like the ability to recapture unused alcohol.
With the correct pot support and windscreen it will get the job done pretty fast.
maremieisen
08-04-2023, 14:58
I've had an MSR PocketRocket ever since they first came out, which I later supplemented with an MSR RapidFire.
A little over 10 years ago, I got the idea into my head of switching to an alcohol stove to save weight and burn a renewable fuel, but after building myself a pressurized alcohol stove, I realized some very important things:
1. alcohol has a much lower specific heat, so it takes a long time to cook and uses a lot of fuel
2. an alcohol stove is mostly either on or off, with no nuance, forget simmering
3. an alcohol stove burns until the fuel is gone, whether you want it to or not
4. over an extended period of time, the amount of fuel I would need to carry to equal the cooking time of a gas canister stove makes the alcohol setup even heavier.
Given all these disadvantages, coupled with the fact that a gas canister stove gives you fairly precise control of the flame, I abandoned the idea of using an alcohol stove. A few years ago, I replaced the PocketRocket with a SOTO Amicus with no igniter, and that is now my main stove. I occasionally use the RapidFire at home as an additional burner in my kitchen; it is the champion of vintage stoves, in my book. The PocketRocket is now my backup stove.
And now I understand California banned denatured alcohol a few years ago. I went camping in CA in 2013, and used my PocketRocket, but I couldn't use an alcohol stove there now even if I wanted to.
maremieisen
08-04-2023, 15:03
My little alcohol stove:
501325013350134
VeganHiker
02-21-2024, 19:53
Trangia alcohol with Vargo titanium as a pot stand and wind screen. This allows you to use the simmer ring at the same time. One piece of advice, dont count on most all campgrounds for alcohol fuel replenishments or food. Just carry a little more fuel and be content knowing you will have fuel and food. Dont count on Abol campground to have alcohol, they simply dont understand.
Alcohol is quieter and better environmentally and you dont have to deal with canisters. The downsides are well documented. Just know that you can
make it through the whole trail with alcohol. For below freezing simply have a few pieces of single line jute to use as a wick on below freezing days or use paper or tissue to light it.
LazyLightning
02-22-2024, 20:14
I've seen a lot of the newer ones but I still prefer my DualFuel burner (3/4 oz) and "hinge folding pot support" from QiWiz. Wind screen to of course but all fits in the pot super compact with other stuff. Been using it since 2017 including my entire 2018 thru hike and still. Probably would be more efficient with some new carbon felt but still working good. I carried my alcohol in 8oz bottles and carried two keeping them full every chance I had. Those two bottles would last me well over a month but I only cook for dinner, no stove in the morning. A lot of two cooking meals for dinner though
Meant to add that I never had an issue lighting my stove with a lighter in temps even well below freezing and into the single digits. I have to warm my lighter up to get it to light but the stove fires right up, takes a bit more fuel to boil but I never had an issue and never wished I had anything more.
Choose a quiet alcohol stove for the AT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKAFAsPfC4s
Over the last 2 years it seems the trend in stoves being used are canister stoves. Jetboils being the most popular.
What is the stove you currently will be using?
https://www.territorysupply.com/woodburning-backpacking-stoves
Montana Mac
02-23-2024, 18:02
Got this Markill stove for my 2009 AT hike. Have used it ever since. It burns hot, it's lightweight and folds up small. Easily fits inside my cooking pot. The case that came with it has a belt loop on it so one could carry it on their belt. Loop isn't large enough to go on a pack waistband.
503915039250393