View Full Version : Georgia to Virginia – AT Food Storage Order – National Forest Land
Odd Man Out
04-30-2023, 12:54
I wasn't sure if this was posted yet. It seems to be in effect immediately.
https://appalachiantrail.org/trail-updates/georgia-to-virginia-food-storage-order-national-forest-land/
Greenlight
04-30-2023, 13:06
I wasn't sure if this was posted yet. It seems to be in effect immediately.
https://appalachiantrail.org/trail-updates/georgia-to-virginia-food-storage-order-national-forest-land/
Common sense. But yeah, they’ve been mulling this over for a while. I bought a bear vault when I heard about the possibility. I prefer my Ursak, but will comply with whatever they deem necessary.
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I was in the Smokies last week. I was carrying a bear vault. The ranger at the backcountry permit office told me I still needed to use the bear cables.
Lone Wolf
04-30-2023, 13:21
no way to enforce this
Greenlight
04-30-2023, 13:24
I was in the Smokies last week. I was carrying a bear vault. The ranger at the backcountry permit office told me I still needed to use the bear cables.
[emoji23]
“Yessir, Sir!”
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Looks like they’re instructing folks to use Ursacks the way they aren’t meant to be used, by hanging them like you would a regular stuff sack:
“If used, soft-sided food bags like Ursacks or stuff sacks must be hung at least 70 adult paces (about 200 feet) from campsites. Food must be hung a minimum of 6 feet from the tree trunk, 6 feet below the branch, and 12 feet from the ground to the bottom of the food bag.”
This defeats the purpose of an Ursack. I’ll continue to use mine the way it’s actually designed to be used, tying it to a tree head-high.
One Half
05-01-2023, 07:30
If you read the actual FS order, ursacks aren't even mentioned. It states "Stored or disposed of in a commercially made bear resistant canister, constructed of solid, non-pliable material, manufactured for the specific purpose of resisting entry by bears."
Then it goes on to mention hanging food in bags properly which would seem to include Ursacks.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd1101835.pdf
Looks like they’re instructing folks to use Ursacks the way they aren’t meant to be used, by hanging them like you would a regular stuff sack:
“If used, soft-sided food bags like Ursacks or stuff sacks must be hung at least 70 adult paces (about 200 feet) from campsites. Food must be hung a minimum of 6 feet from the tree trunk, 6 feet below the branch, and 12 feet from the ground to the bottom of the food bag.”
This defeats the purpose of an Ursack. I’ll continue to use mine the way it’s actually designed to be used, tying it to a tree head-high.
No Match
05-01-2023, 15:29
I just came off the AT for the second time the last few months. 3 Ursacks 'ripped' open, 2 of them are on YouTube videos. One Ursack had the properly tied double-figure eight knot, but like my food bag, the bear chewed the limb off the tree. In my case the limb was a 6-inch Post Oak and a solid three and a half hour effort. The bear won. PCT method does not work neither, several bags taken by the limb being chewed off as two PCT hikers found out. I used a canister. If you do not hang the canister, it gets taken for a roll. A very long roll if it gets anywhere near downhill. Welcome to Yosemite in the South. Our bears have graduated to pro-grade theives. And if you get time to delve in every campsite post since GutHook/FarOut started for those of us who have entirely too much time, get a calculator for the number of stolen food bags between Springer and Standing Bear. This is an historical written account of proof too why this is to be considered, making bears happy since 2016.
they've been causing problems here in mass as well over the last few years. good time for some local boys to make sausage
Majortrauma
05-02-2023, 08:01
Exactly Lone Wolf. Are they going to send patrols on the AT looking for violators or perhaps rely on other hikes to rat them out? And this "(about 200 feet) ". 190' earns you a violation but not 195'? and this" Storing food in tents and shelters is NOT permitted." Is someone actually going to inspect hikers packs for food in a shelter. A SURE recipe for disaster.
They clearly did not think this all the way through but leave it to big government to come up with something this bad.
Exactly Lone Wolf. Are they going to send patrols on the AT looking for violators or perhaps rely on other hikes to rat them out? And this "(about 200 feet) ". 190' earns you a violation but not 195'? and this" Storing food in tents and shelters is NOT permitted." Is someone actually going to inspect hikers packs for food in a shelter. A SURE recipe for disaster.
They clearly did not think this all the way through but leave it to big government to come up with something this bad.
Maybe more like that if they set these rules, someone fails to follow them and they have a problem, they can then be charged for failing to follow the rules, more than actually trying to enforce them in advance? An example - someone chooses to keep food in the shelter, an animal comes in and injures someone else in said shelter. The person who had the food could be charged and have to pay for any costs of the injured person for breaking the rules.
The hope being, of course, that people will simply use extra care and keep the problems from occurring in the first place.
gpburdelljr
05-02-2023, 12:48
Exactly Lone Wolf. Are they going to send patrols on the AT looking for violators or perhaps rely on other hikes to rat them out? And this "(about 200 feet) ". 190' earns you a violation but not 195'? and this" Storing food in tents and shelters is NOT permitted." Is someone actually going to inspect hikers packs for food in a shelter. A SURE recipe for disaster.
They clearly did not think this all the way through but leave it to big government to come up with something this bad.
If hiker behavior about food storage isn’t changed, some camping areas and shelters can end up being closed (temporarily), some bears may have to be euthanized, and some hikers could even be hurt by the problem bears. So, what is your proposed solution to the increasing problem with bears caused by hikers careless about their food?
If this was actually enforced, it seems like the FS envisions Ursack users switching to canisters, when it reality most will just continue to use their Ursack or switch to a regular stuff sack. It seems to me that most bear issues are caused by poor stuff-sack hangs, so a more effective solution would have been requiring either a a canister or using an Ursack the correct way. But that would cause much more of an uproar than what they are “ordering”. This is just a terrible solution in so many ways.
I just came off the AT for the second time the last few months. 3 Ursacks 'ripped' open, 2 of them are on YouTube videos. One Ursack had the properly tied double-figure eight knot, but like my food bag, the bear chewed the limb off the tree. In my case the limb was a 6-inch Post Oak and a solid three and a half hour effort. The bear won. PCT method does not work neither, several bags taken by the limb being chewed off as two PCT hikers found out. I used a canister. If you do not hang the canister, it gets taken for a roll. A very long roll if it gets anywhere near downhill. Welcome to Yosemite in the South. Our bears have graduated to pro-grade theives. And if you get time to delve in every campsite post since GutHook/FarOut started for those of us who have entirely too much time, get a calculator for the number of stolen food bags between Springer and Standing Bear. This is an historical written account of proof too why this is to be considered, making bears happy since 2016.
So sleep with your food, or hunt more bears to bring the population down? Got it.
peakbagger
05-03-2023, 13:49
Just got crank up the bear gallbladder market again. Poachers used to keep down the surplus population but I think enforcement pressure and the more lucrative drug trade cut down on the number of poachers.
Up in the whites there is remote campsite in the Pemi Wilderness called 13 falls. There is an AMC caretaker and bear box to make sure the food storage and housekeeping rules are followed. Even with that they have had to have all the campers cook at one location and the campers and caretakers have been charged by bears multiple times while peopl were cooking. NH F&G ignores bear issues until someone is injured. A few years back a caretaker finished his stint as caretaker and went back in with his bow and took out one of the offending bears during bear season. Last year the bears were back and started flipping over the bear box, it turns out that it had been there long enough that the bottom was rusted and the bear ended up ripping it out to get at the food. Bears will adjust their ranges if there is active hunting pressure but if there isnt a threat they quickly learn to ignore the people and head for the food.
gpburdelljr
05-03-2023, 15:29
With trail runners educating hikers about the new rules, maybe more hikers will start practicing proper food storage.
stephanD
05-04-2023, 10:10
no way to enforce this
Maybe so. But anyone who hiked recently in those sections will tell you that the bears have no fear of humans and they increasingly are aggressive when it comes to human food. So what's to do?
I just came off the AT for the second time the last few months. 3 Ursacks 'ripped' open, 2 of them are on YouTube videos. One Ursack had the properly tied double-figure eight knot, but like my food bag, the bear chewed the limb off the tree. In my case the limb was a 6-inch Post Oak and a solid three and a half hour effort. The bear won. PCT method does not work neither, several bags taken by the limb being chewed off as two PCT hikers found out. I used a canister. If you do not hang the canister, it gets taken for a roll. A very long roll if it gets anywhere near downhill. Welcome to Yosemite in the South. Our bears have graduated to pro-grade theives. And if you get time to delve in every campsite post since GutHook/FarOut started for those of us who have entirely too much time, get a calculator for the number of stolen food bags between Springer and Standing Bear. This is an historical written account of proof too why this is to be considered, making bears happy since 2016.
Sounds like that pesky cocaine bear still on the loose!!
Patrickjd9
05-05-2023, 11:46
So sleep with your food, or hunt more bears to bring the population down? Got it.
Sleeping with your food or keeping it in the shelter is pretty much what the order is intended to ban.
Tennessee Viking
05-05-2023, 17:03
Funny how the National Forest of NC site just has a Bear Aware alert - Recommends bear canister use. But no mention of the order.