Hiker attacked by Coyote pack in Mass.

[Daniel]

Excellent... I'm really looking forward to hiking through mass now :-).

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/8833811/detail.html?rss=bos&psp=news

[Lone Wolf]

Coyotes and mice. Vermin. Kill em. End of story.

[KirkMcquest]

Interesting that they blamed the lack of trapping on the coyote 'problem', rather than the rampant development that has gone completely unchecked for a dozen years. As we know, continued building on previously wild lands puts the squeeze on all these animals.

[KirkMcquest]

Coyotes and mice. Vermin. Kill em. End of story.

Wouldn't mind seeing a few less wolves around either.;)

[Pacific Tortuga]

Animals gone wild or is this a statement for Field and Stream ? Mountian
Lions,Coyotes and Bears .......... holy T-rap! :eek: . WILL COOLER HEADS PREVAIL ? or will taxadermy be the new 'low' tech job career craz ?

[Scribe]

Coyotes are wily. The more they're hunted and trapped, the more there are. A few years ago, it was really unusual to hear or see a coyote in eastern states, now they seem to be everywhere. Bounties, poisoning, traps - nothing works.

[blindeye]

kirkmcquest,
you make an excellent point. especially in this state( massachusetts) i was born here and believe me this state is squeezing every inch of land they can, and it's selling for OUTRAGEOUS amounts of money. the wildlife suffers and then it's a big shock when the animals defend their homes.
whoever got attacked i wish them well and hope they recover quickly, i think we'll see more of this type of animal behavior.
just my two cents!!!!!

[ed bell]

I've been hearing them more and more in the N.C. mountains over the past 10 years. Real spooky the first time, but kinda cool to hear late at night.:cool:

[Frosty]

Coyotes are wily. The more they're hunted and trapped, the more there are. A few years ago, it was really unusual to hear or see a coyote in eastern states, now they seem to be everywhere. Bounties, poisoning, traps - nothing works.I would think that any one of those three options would work. Trapping sure would. From the linked article:

since the elimination of trapping about 10 years ago, the coyote population has soared. It boomed,

This is Massachusetts we are talking about, though, so there is probably a Coyote Rights Advocate Group.

The first step would be to put a bounty on liberal politicians, and trap and poison them. Then Massachusetts could address the coyote problem without some lawyer suing the state on behalf of a coyote that chewed a leg off to escape a trap.

[betic4lyf]

i read an interesting article in the AMC magazine, outdoors i think it is called. apparently Coyotes aren't indigenous to the east coast, but are an invasive species. the problem with killing them is that more will find their way in, but will be willing to live of smaller territories so there will end up being more. to be honest, coyotes scare me more than anything else.

[KirkMcquest]

I would think that any one of those three options would work. Trapping sure would. From the linked article:

since the elimination of trapping about 10 years ago, the coyote population has soared. It boomed,

This is Massachusetts we are talking about, though, so there is probably a Coyote Rights Advocate Group.

The first step would be to put a bounty on liberal politicians, and trap and poison them. Then Massachusetts could address the coyote problem without some lawyer suing the state on behalf of a coyote that chewed a leg off to escape a trap.

Then those same 'conservative' politicians will sell out all the rest of that open land to the highest bidder, putting an end to the whole wild life 'problem'. Simple

[icemanat95]

Interesting that they blamed the lack of trapping on the coyote 'problem', rather than the rampant development that has gone completely unchecked for a dozen years. As we know, continued building on previously wild lands puts the squeeze on all these animals.

Hey buddy, you need to check your information. Coyotes aren't NATIVE to New England and their populations aren't threatened by human communities, they thrive in them. Previously wild lands is another silly concept when talking about New England. The whole state of Massachusetts, most of New England in fact, was agricultural land. Walk through the woods and you find stone walls everywhere. Who builds stone walls in the woods...no-one does, they build them around pastures and fields....which is what pretty much all of New England was not that long ago. New England is wilder today than it has been since around 1750 or so. Your "environmentalism," like most modern "environmentalism," is based on romantic illusions and delusions rather than fact.

Coyote populations in Massachusetts went through the roof when leg-hold traps were outlawed in the state on the votes of a bunch of eastern city dwellers who had never even seen a coyote or what it can do to livestock, chickens, etc. They took away the single most effective tool to control coyotes and beavers (which are doing a whole different kind of damage. People outside of route 128 understand the problem, but there isn't enough population outside of 128 to overcome the Boston and Metrowest suburban vote.

So now farmers have to just suck up the loss of livestock. They can call a state certified trapper, but their success rate sucks since they aren't often familiar with the local terrain and the local populations. They are too far behind the 8-ball to ever catch up. So they fail...a lot. Thus the coyote population continues to climb and we are hearing about more and more violent coyote encounters every year.

This hiker was attacked pretty close to where I live, likely along the Metacomet-Monadnock Trail. This is not an area where population pressure has anything to do with anything. It's strictly rural and agricultural.

[EarthJourney]

My brother in-law had a encounter with a pack of them. He was walking to his deer blind (before sun up) from the camp cabin. A nice little walk, prob. 1/2 mile or so. He said he never heard a thing until he got to his blind (the blinds in no. Michigan, as in other northern states, are more like little 4 sided/roofed shelters to keep heat in). It was then he heard a twig snap. He looked to catch the sight of one coyote. He raised his rifle up (more out of fear and instinct than to kill the coyote) and the whole pack erupted in their canine shrills and barks and snarls. He was at the door of his blind so he was able to get in with no further incident. But he soon realized that the pack had probably been following him for very nearly the entire walk - and he never heard a thing until the one twig snap!

(that was in Alpena county for those of you in Michigan!)

[icemanat95]

Then those same 'conservative' politicians will sell out all the rest of that open land to the highest bidder, putting an end to the whole wild life 'problem'. Simple

Yah think so? Guess what, like most of the rest of the people in the state of taxachusetts, the developers selling off all the land in Massachusetts are liberal democrats whose liberal ideals go out the window the second dollar signs show up on the scene. Massachusetts is such a liberal democratic stronghold it is outrageous. Farmers are driven out of business by regulations and taxes that make it impossible to keep farming on their land. Nor can they keep the land in the family because the property taxes are brutal, especially if you haven't got significant other income. So they end up selling off, usually to developers who can afford it. The town politicians encourage the development as well, because it allows them to increase their long-term tax base. Guess what, most of those politicians are also liberal democrats. Corruption isn't democratic or republican, liberal or conservative, it's just money-grubbing, greedy corruption.

[KirkMcquest]

Hey buddy, you need to check your information. Coyotes aren't NATIVE to New England and their populations aren't threatened by human communities, they thrive in them. Previously wild lands is another silly concept when talking about New England. The whole state of Massachusetts, most of New England in fact, was agricultural land. Walk through the woods and you find stone walls everywhere. Who builds stone walls in the woods...no-one does, they build them around pastures and fields....which is what pretty much all of New England was not that long ago. New England is wilder today than it has been since around 1750 or so. Your "environmentalism," like most modern "environmentalism," is based on romantic illusions and delusions rather than fact.

Coyote populations in Massachusetts went through the roof when leg-hold traps were outlawed in the state on the votes of a bunch of eastern city dwellers who had never even seen a coyote or what it can do to livestock, chickens, etc. They took away the single most effective tool to control coyotes and beavers (which are doing a whole different kind of damage. People outside of route 128 understand the problem, but there isn't enough population outside of 128 to overcome the Boston and Metrowest suburban vote.

So now farmers have to just suck up the loss of livestock. They can call a state certified trapper, but their success rate sucks since they aren't often familiar with the local terrain and the local populations. They are too far behind the 8-ball to ever catch up. So they fail...a lot. Thus the coyote population continues to climb and we are hearing about more and more violent coyote encounters every year.

This hiker was attacked pretty close to where I live, likely along the Metacomet-Monadnock Trail. This is not an area where population pressure has anything to do with anything. It's strictly rural and agricultural.

You make an excellent point regarding coyotes. However, the rampant development that I refered to is the greatest problem facing our forests and wildlife today. Whenever I hear from someone who lives in New Hampshire or someplace similar that hasn't yet fully experienced the result of all the suburban expansion, they usually sound just like you.

Give it a few years to reach you up there, you'll see.

[Almost There]

Reintroduce wolves to more areas of the east...they'll kill the coyotes. Then again....

[BooBoo]

I heard a pack of em get too a damn close for comfort a few weeks ago when I was walking down by the Spring River. I wrapped up my allmost full Nalgene in a spare shirt just in case I may've needed to swing on one.

I thought that coyotes where supposed to be skittish. The only time I've seen them was there when they were running away from me.

[Almost There]

One coyote...no big deal...two coyotes...still pretty safe...3 or more...they're thinkin'....DINNER!!!

Dated a girl from central Illinois back in college. Her grandparents had this farm and the coyotes would constantly come around. I was walking up the farm lane between the cornfields one day and I heard something rustle through the corn, I looked and saw nothing, but picked up my pace. a couple minutes later the hairs on my neck stood up and I turned around to find a lone coyote following me up the lane. I picked up the pace and so did it, as I got close to the house their crazy farm dog saw me and started running over...it lit eyes on the coyote and bam it was gone...and so was the coyote. That dog tore after it like a fat kid after cake. Got back to the house and her grandpa told me they've been a problem recently(1995). We didn't see the dog again for another hour.

Anyways, I called the dog crazy because when it was younger it was in the pasture messing with the cattle and one bull took it in his head to chase the dog. Now the pasture was surrrounded by an electric wire fence about 4 feet high. The cattle learn where to stop, but that dog...to make a long story short the dog decided to hurdle the fence but didn't quite clear it and caught his nuts on the fence, and I think it jumped up another 5 feet vertically. Dog was never the same afterwords!!!

[icemanat95]

You make an excellent point regarding coyotes. However, the rampant development that I refered to is the greatest problem facing our forests and wildlife today. Whenever I hear from someone who lives in New Hampshire or someplace similar that hasn't yet fully experienced the result of all the suburban expansion, they usually sound just like you.

Give it a few years to reach you up there, you'll see.

Wrong again, I'm a transplant to New Hampshire and I life on the edges of an expanding city here.

I grew up in suburban Massachusetts, rights smack dab in the middle of it. I know exactly what that's all about. I fight it here by voting and supporting local open space protection initiatives and private purchase and protection of open land through current use classification.

[KirkMcquest]

Wrong again, I'm a transplant to New Hampshire and I life on the edges of an expanding city here.

I grew up in suburban Massachusetts, rights smack dab in the middle of it. I know exactly what that's all about. I fight it here by voting and supporting local open space protection initiatives and private purchase and protection of open land through current use classification.

Yet you've asserted that New England is wilder today than it was in 1750. This is a very common piece of distortion rhetoric used by the right wing ( I'm not endorsing the other side, but exposing a lie that has been created by that side, Rush Limbaugh style. You know, the drug addict liar). This type of rhetoric obviously identifies you as having a certain view and agenda. I've agreed with your correct estimation of coyote habitat and environmental adaptability, but please spare me the BS.:rolleyes:

[Israel]

Iceman,
you took the words out of my mouth with your first post. It really interests me that here are the hikers of the A.T., supposedly really in touch with "nature," supposedly in unity with nature, etc. etc. and yet 99.9% of hikers seem to really know nothing about reality or nature.

Hopefully the guy attacked is ok. Definitely not a case of encroaching development or the result of "greedy developers."

[Israel]

also,
you gotta love people complaining about developers when, unless they built a corn cob house on a mountain top with no road, their entire life revolves around and relies upon the work of the developer who built and paved their street, the builder who built their home, their office, their grocery store, their every structure...funny to hear how everybody is ok with the developer and builder enough to purchase their finished products (either new or via a resale since just like cars...all developments and homes begin as new), yet somehow, after they have lived there for just a little bit, the developer is suddenly evil and ruining the world b/c they are doing a project down the road that is identicle to the very one that first person lives in.

We could also discuss the hypocracy of stating the hatred and contempt for industry/manufacturers and all the oil reliance and all that...yet we turn around and pay big $$ for a bunch of sil-nylon tarps, nylon tents, ployester clothes, etc. etc. which are all nothing more than fancy forms of oil.

Sorry for going off topic. To get myself back on topic, let me conclude by saying they obviously need to open a coyote hunting or trapping season in MA.

[KirkMcquest]

also,
you gotta love people complaining about developers when, unless they built a corn cob house on a mountain top with no road, their entire life revolves around and relies upon the work of the developer who built and paved their street, the builder who built their home, their office, their grocery store, their every structure...funny to hear how everybody is ok with the developer and builder enough to purchase their finished products (either new or via a resale since just like cars...all developments and homes begin as new), yet somehow, after they have lived there for just a little bit, the developer is suddenly evil and ruining the world b/c they are doing a project down the road that is identicle to the very one that first person lives in.

We could also discuss the hypocracy of stating the hatred and contempt for industry/manufacturers and all the oil reliance and all that...yet we turn around and pay big $$ for a bunch of sil-nylon tarps, nylon tents, ployester clothes, etc. etc. which are all nothing more than fancy forms of oil.

Sorry for going off topic. To get myself back on topic, let me conclude by saying they obviously need to open a coyote hunting or trapping season in MA.

If you had any type of insight you'd realize that what people are complaining about is over-development, and suburban sprawl, the effects and realities of which are FACT, not opinion. It is a call for urban planning that most reasonable people are after. Your characterization of of the dumb-ass thats sitting in his development, complaining about the next development, and the anti-oil guy whose buying a bunch of oil based products is entertaining at best, at worst it is an arrogant, and patronizing depiction of people that are trying to better our environment.

It is also necessary to point out to you ( since you haven't figured it out yet) that maybe the reason why peoples lives revolve around oil and development is because they are not offered any other options( much to the enrichment of some), and never will if people like you have their way. And further more if you can't see the distinction between buying a piece of nylon and supporting a fossil fuel based mega-structure, then this post will be completely lost on you.

Luckily, some folks have the forsight and imagination to recognize impending problems in the world and are at least trying to speak out or act on it. All the while you'll be shaking your head at us, calling us all hypocrits. That's OK though, most of us are too busy to pay folks like you too much attention

[Mr. Obvious]

Had a few meetings with Coyotes here in Southern Indiana myself. On the Knobstone Trail. Honestly I don't know if they are native to Indiana, but I do know that we are eating up the land at a high rate, and this can't possibly be good for their habitat.. I backpack with a bearbag, hang it like i would anywhere in bear country.
I've had nothing more than sightings, nothing real close, but within sight, they are checking me out, i stand my ground, yell and feign a charge and they run off.
They have recently re-instated a bounty for killing a coyote in the state.. Sad. I realize they are dogs, they do find the bestway to get into "trouble".. ,but if we could stop a bit of the land destruction, maybe we could all live in harmony here.?

Mr. Obvious

[KirkMcquest]

I realize the inconvenience it is to actually have to share the world with other creatures.

[heyman62]

A ban on trapping is the main culprit here in my own town also. There are numerous stories every year in MA of run- ins with coyotes. Development is truely a problem and I wish most towns would put a limit on development each year. The lack of trapping is a massive problem now in Massachusetts. It does not matter which side of the trapping issue you are, wildlife is proliferating and coyotes have only man here as there predator. I do not hunt (except with a fishing pole) so I'm not pushing more hunting. I have been hiking in the Berkshires twice in the past 2 years when a pack of coyotes was shadowing me. Never was attacked, but it was always on my mind that they could take me down as a group.
I guess it is a matter of not hiking alone here now. Trapping...hmmm- a very sticky subject indeed. I just want to keep hiking. Politics aside, we need to do what is needed to keep hiking safe for all.

[The Cheat]

This winter I found a deercarcass about 100 feet from the Dover Oak. It was pretty torn up and was surrounded by lots of "dog" footprints in the snow. Or could have been coyote. I can't tell the difference.

[icemanat95]

Coyote tracks are more compact and neat. The front toes are parallel while the rear are pointed forward in the direction of travel and tucked in close behind the front toes. Coyotes are direct registering animals, which means that when walking, their rear tracks will land right on top of the front tracks just left. Dog trails look a lot more sloppy with rear paw tracks registering as a sloppy overlap or as seperate tracks entirely from the front tracks.

Coyotes, wolves and foxes also are much more direct in their movements. They are much better at interpreting their environment than dogs and thus don't waste a lot of energy checking out little side scents....so their trails are usually fairly direct with little or no wandering along the way. Groups of wolves and coyotes travelling together in deeper snow will generally step in the tracks made by the animal in front of them, minimizing extra effort, dogs don't do this.

So if the trail you are looking at is sloppy and wandering, with chaotic track patterns, chances are its a dog. If the pattern is neat, direct and purposeful, it's going to be a predator like a wolf, coyote or fox.

Coyotes don't leave much at the carcass either, They'll eat anything they can reach, which is why you often just find the head and some chaotic bones. Wolves will crack open the bones as well as eat the marrow if they can. Dogs aren't nearly as efficient and tend to leave a partially eaten carcass or even a dead and savabed animal with little or no meat eaten, especially domesticated dogs running wild, as they are well fed at home.

Coyotes, by and large, are solitary animals. They pair up for mating and rearing pups, but they tend not to pack up, not by choice. When coyotes pack up it generally indicates overpopulation forcing them to associate for more successful hunting.

Coydogs were a concern in the Northeast for some time, but recent biology has demonstrated that they are probably not a viable species in the northeast as the cross between a coyote and a dog results in an out of phaze mating season. Coyotes mate in Janurary and February and bear their young in the Spring. Coydogs tend to breed in the fall, resulting in winter births. Making matters worse, male coy dogs and domestic dogs exhibit no parental instincts at all and abandon the mother to her own devices. So when they whelp, the mother generally dies (along with the young) starving to death or becoming victims of predation while trying to hunt and care for 4-5 puppies. So generally coy dog populations aren't going to make it past one or two generations from the original parents.

Whether Coyotes are native to the east or not is a matter of some discussion. What is clear is that they had been completely absent from the region for 150 years or so by the time they showed up again in Massachusetts in around 1950. Attempts at eradicating coyote populations in the West failed utterly in the 20th century and the populations actually increased despite concerted efforts to eliminate them. Coyotes thrive in suburban areas as well. They have been seen in the city of Boston, New York, Hartford, Worcester, down on Cape Cod, and throughout the Metrowest and Worcester suburbs. My parents live only a few hundred yards from a state highway and a few miles from one of the major central Mass highways, and they see coyotes pass through the neighborhood regularly, they are also over-run by whitetail deer and turkeys (which chew their flowers and shrubs down to nubs. Two weeks ago I struck and killed a very healthy two year old doe with my truck. Broke it's back, shattered it's pelvis and generally made a big mess of the poor thing. Unfortunately the damage was so extensive the animal died in less than a minute and the meat was thoroughly ruined by internal bleeding. A more talented butcher might have been able to get more useful meat out of it, but I wasn't about to try. There was another deer with the one I killed, but it had faster reflexes and managed to stop when it saw the truck. Lots of deer and coyotes and turkeys, etc. in the suburbs...they do well there. Suburban development isn't displacing these animals so much as it is creating safe habitats for them where hunting pressure is non-existant and where there is plenty of edge habitat offering excellent browse and quick access to cover.

[Sorcerer]

I was at the shelter before Fontana dam. It was late May in 2002. We were in the last shelter before Fontana Dam (not the Fontana Hilton, but the one before that). We were cooking dinner right at dusk and we heard a real ruckus coming down over the hill in front of the shelter. Then we saw a deer running from left to right down the ridge and then 2 coyotes following close on it's heels. Later that night we heard them howling a few times and once one howled and it sounded so close that it woke all in the shelter up, and we thought it could have been in the shelter! A neat expereince, but a little unsettling too. :eek:

[Jaybird]

Coyotes and mice. Vermin. Kill em. End of story.




Where's the ACME company when you REALLY need 'em!
OR that pesky Road Runner???
beeeeeep-beeeeeeeep!:D



section-hikin' (w/ "Jigsaw") PEarisburg-Glasgow,VA
Apr 22-May 3

[icemanat95]

I realize the inconvenience it is to actually have to share the world with other creatures.

That's not the issue. It's not that humans are refusing to cope with the natural process, The issue is that skyrocketing populations of coyotes (caused by an absence of predatory pressure on them and easy living conditions) are causing them to behave in unnatural ways. They are packing up, which is VERY unusual for coyotes, and makes them a whole lot more dangerous than they are one on one. They attack larger prey when they pack up and become much more successful in their hunts, which impacts other species. Normally coyotes hunt smaller mammals and rodents like field mice, moles, voles, squirrels and chipmunks. When they pack up, they go after more deer, and livestock, and humans fi they think an individual is a soft enough target.

We have a couple of choices here. We can allow the situation to continue as is and understand that higher populations of predators in our woods and mountains are going to mean that hiking is going to get more dangerous, or we can seek to control these populations to maintain some level of security in the backcountry from establishing populations of packed up coyotes, re-introduced wolves, mountain lions and the like.

IF we choose to let it go (and it is most likely that we will), then we need to decide whether we will just write off the recreational body count or allow individuals the right to protect themselves effectively from predatory wildlife. THAT's gonna be a stinker. When last predatory wildlife was allowed to establish uncontrolled populations, there were no laws at all against individuals carrying weapons in the backcountry, it was allowed and people were expected to exercise personal judgment and responsibility with them (within the context of the times). It is my firm belief that if they are going to allow wildlife to establish populations such that they are likely to become predators of humans recreating or living near the backcountry or wherever the wildlife chooses to habitate, they need to allow the individual people the tools they need to effectively defend themselves.

[vipahman]

Coyotes, wild dogs and wolves have one thing in common. They hunt in packs and have a leader. Try to find him and keep track of the relative position of others next to him. So when confronted by them, don't run unless you are close to safety. Stay your pace, wrap a jacket or shirt along one hand arm and kept it ready. If and when they charge, don't run. Turn and face the leader. Make eye contact. Most likely the leader will be the first to bite. Let him. Don't pull your hand out, shove it further down his throat. He will gag and maybe even throw up. Hit him hard on his nose with your free hand. Try to keep the other animals off you by keeping the leader in their way. Eventually, the leader will take a beating and give up and withdraw. That is the cue to attack the next most aggressive animal in the pack. Try to stand tall but protect your groin at the same time. The chance of success is pretty high if you are talking about 2 aggressive animals in the pack. 3 and above would be tough and I would be looking for my favorite alternative: tree.

Believe me when I say this has worked.

[icemanat95]

but if we could stop a bit of the land destruction, maybe we could all live in harmony here.?

Mr. Obvious

This is one of those romantic notions. Harmony is not a natural state. A level of equilibrium may be achieved between species within an environment whereby they keep one another in check, but harmony is a utopian theory never really seen in the world.

Equilibrium also tends to favor the species that is best adapted to compete within the environment. In natural systems wolves tend to push out or directly reduce the populations of coyotes. Their own populations are affected by disease and availability of prey, or the presence of a higher order predator, like humans. It is very much a force-based relationship.

To achieve harmony, a species must choose to limit its activities and expansion to reduce impact on other species. Only humans can choose to do this, other species cannot, nor should we expect them to respond in kind. If we leave other species an opening to expand into, they will. Humans in the Northeast have been backing away from wildlife for many years now, allowing them right into our own habitats.

Avoid romantic ideals when dealing with these issues, it limits your perspective.

[Mr. Obvious]

So , we should just .. ah. just give it up?
Harmony. Rarely seen.. well?. Isn't that a positive outlook.?

""To achieve harmony, a species must choose to limit its activities and expansion to reduce impact on other species""

I'll do my part...
Granted the east is 180degrees from the midwest. If you are "allowing them into our own habitats".. maybe that's an indication that the "habitat" that has been built is intrusive and un-needed destruction of wolves habitat?..

Thanks for discussing.
happy hiking...

[Mags]

That's not the issue. It's not that humans are refusing to cope with the natural process, The issue is that skyrocketing populations of coyotes (caused by an absence of predatory pressure on them and easy living conditions) are causing them to behave in unnatural ways.



So true. Coyotes are among the most adaptable animals in north america. If their population starts going down, they breed more. They live in all kinds of enivronment. They have resisted all attemps at controlling the population. Where a large predator vanishes, the coyotes move in (e.g. wolves in New England).

There is strong evidence that coyotes are NOT native to the East coast (as Ice Man said). Among the first accounts of coyotes by Euro-Americans was in 1804 on the Lewis and Clark expedition. They called the creature a "prarie wolf". Until then, only a few trappers and some Spanish explorers knew about it (again, among Europeans or their descendants).

Getting back to 2006..what to do? I honestly don't know. Suburban sprawl is causing humans to bump more into creatures that go bump in the night. Here in Boulder, we just had a mountain lion attack in the foothills.

I suspect more of these types of incidents will happen more frequently in the near future.

[icemanat95]

Yet you've asserted that New England is wilder today than it was in 1750. This is a very common piece of distortion rhetoric used by the right wing ( I'm not endorsing the other side, but exposing a lie that has been created by that side, Rush Limbaugh style. You know, the drug addict liar). This type of rhetoric obviously identifies you as having a certain view and agenda. I've agreed with your correct estimation of coyote habitat and environmental adaptability, but please spare me the BS.:rolleyes:

Look buddy, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about here. Massachusetts was first settled permanently in the early 17th century. The "Pilgrims" landing in 1620, they were not the first to establish a permanent settlement here, there had already been a number of settlements put in place all along the coast. As they established themselves, they quickly moved inland and cleared the land to build their towns and pasture their animals. By the time of the French and Indian Wars, there was precious little wilderness left in what we consider Massachusetts to be today (not counting New Hampshire and Maine, which were both part of the colony at one time.) The region was heavily settled and heavily deforested. Yes todays population is much greater and there are more houses, but those houses are closely packed, mostly inside of route 495 in the eastern third of the state. In the 17th and 18th centuries, vast areas were cleared, and tilled or otherwise in use for agricultural purposes. It was no longer wild and the wildlife, especially the deer and larger animals, was largely gone due to massive loss of habitat.

Today, most of that land has reverted to forest. Stone walls that once served as boundaries for fields and pastures are buried in the woods, and deer and other large mammal populations are plentiful. This is reality. There is more forest in Massachusetts (and most of New England) right now than there has been in 200 years. No, it is not primeival forest, yes there are roads through there and strings of houses along some of those roads, but there is MUCH more habitat for wildlife today than 200 years ago. This is true of most of the original 13 colonies as well. What caused this reversion to forestland? The industrial revolution. Industrialism sparked a migration to the cities and less of a need to maintain so much agricultural land. People abandoned their farms and turned to the cities. The patchworks of fields that had stretched as far as the eye could see and beyond, filled in. It only takes a couple generations as long as there are some trees surrounding the fields to reseed the area.

Are we losing habitat again? Yup. but it's not as bad as some would paint it, and it has been A LOT worse. My own property is a clear example of this. There are several stone walls on my property and many more in the various forested lots around it. Hundreds of acres that were cleared when the town was founded and are now heavily wooded with many trees that are well over 100 years old. This is normal in Central New England in general. The only old growth forest around is to be found on slopes that were too steep to pasture animals, till crops or to log by the means available at the time, it is pretty much all successionary forest with isolated pockets of old growth (some of which is just old secondary growth, having been cleared so long ago that the trees that grew in after are past maturity and starting to die off again.

This is fact not propaganda. It is drawn from a number of factual sources including academic specialists in that period of history, professional foresters (not loggers, there is a big difference), a well established body of regional history, and the direct local knowledge of a lifelong resident. This is my home turf.

It is very easy for city bred and city dwelling "environmentalists" to talk about these things in theory, but it's quite another issue for local people who live on the ground and know the area to discuss them. Yes we are biased, but we also have the foggiest idea of the actual ground conditions...you don't. This particular incident happened about 20 miles from where I live, in a well established state park area that is definitely reclaimed from agricultural use. My wife drives past Tully Lake every day, and my kids participate in Junior Forest Ranger programs nearby. My father-in-law owns several tracts of forestry property in the area (all reverted from pasture and field as well), and residences in the area are sparse.

[RockyTrail]

About 3 weeks ago, a group of scouts from my son's troop were camping near Standing Indian/Deep Gap NC.

One kid (who has since learned better) had accidentally left a food wrapper next to his tent's outside wall. During the night some coyotes came through their camp, one coyote found the wrapper and was rubbing around up against the tent wall. The 14-year old made a fist and punched him with all he could muster through the tent wall and it scampered off with a howl!

He learned a lesson in LNT and something he will be telling for a while:)

(please spare me the "poor coyote" comments, the darn things are PESTS)

[Mags]

Today, most of that land has reverted to forest. Stone walls that once served as boundaries for fields and pastures are buried in the woods, and deer and other large mammal populations are plentiful. This is reality. There is more forest in Massachusetts (and most of New England) right now than there has been in 200 years.

When I lived back in RI, I would often go hiking in the western part of the state. Believe it or not, it is still fairly rural there. Many state forests (called Management Areas) around.

Long story short, you would often find old foundations of homes, see old root cellars and small, overgrown cemeteries. My buddy lives in the northwest corner of the state (in spitting distance of the Conn. border) and on his property he hound a vastly overgrown old farm house foundation.

Most of the woods is X growth old farmland indeed. There are not more forests than pre-Columbus...but there are more forests than say 1700-1850. (When industry (texttiles esp)., not farming) started becoming a driving force of the New England economy.)

[Turtle2]

Would trapping really work as the bounty for hides is only $10 or so??? My cousin (a trapper) doesn't mess with trapping coyotes as he can't get much for the hides.

[Mr. Obvious]

$5.00 here in Indiana. From what i understand the legislation hasn't passed yet, but this what they are offering up as an idea..

[Ridge]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/06/0607_050607_coyotes.html


Two page article about the Coyote.

[leeki pole]

of a coyote that chewed a leg off to escape a trap.

Holy cow...brings back memories of college days......whew! :eek:

[Dances with Mice]

a coyote that chewed a leg off to escape a trap.You heard about the blonde coyote? Chewed off a leg but was still caught in the trap.

[Footslogger]

You heard about the blonde coyote? Chewed off a leg but was still caught in the trap.
==================================
This is starting to sound like something about "Coyote Ugly" I heard once upon a time ...

'Slogger

[Newb]

You can make a pretty effective flail with a rock, some tent line and your hiking pole. Just the thing for pesky coyotes!

Simply wrap the tent line in a star pattern tightly around a good sized rock. Tie the line off to the strap on the hand grip of your hiking pole. Collapse the hiking pole to make a good solid handle. Voila! You're a medieval warrior and terror of the coyote population.

[canoehead]

Safe Adventures to all who dare to enter our woods

Tim

[leeki pole]

You can make a pretty effective flail with a rock, some tent line and your hiking pole. Just the thing for pesky coyotes!

Simply wrap the tent line in a star pattern tightly around a good sized rock. Tie the line off to the strap on the hand grip of your hiking pole. Collapse the hiking pole to make a good solid handle. Voila! You're a medieval warrior and terror of the coyote population.

But kind of hard to do when you're haulin' down the trail with a pack of wild a** rabid, droolin', hungry canines just a nippin' at your heels :p

[KirkMcquest]

pretty cool visual, though

[hobbit]

Coyotes, wild dogs and wolves have one thing in common. They hunt in packs and have a leader. Try to find him and keep track of the relative position of others next to him. So when confronted by them, don't run unless you are close to safety. Stay your pace, wrap a jacket or shirt along one hand arm and kept it ready. If and when they charge, don't run. Turn and face the leader. Make eye contact. Most likely the leader will be the first to bite. Let him. Don't pull your hand out, shove it further down his throat. He will gag and maybe even throw up. Hit him hard on his nose with your free hand. Try to keep the other animals off you by keeping the leader in their way. Eventually, the leader will take a beating and give up and withdraw. That is the cue to attack the next most aggressive animal in the pack. Try to stand tall but protect your groin at the same time. The chance of success is pretty high if you are talking about 2 aggressive animals in the pack. 3 and above would be tough and I would be looking for my favorite alternative: tree.

Believe me when I say this has worked.



or you could cause trouble and carrry a gun haha just kidding although that i think would be its only real purpose in having a gun because it probably wouldn't save you from a bear!!!!.......

[Vi+]

A resident pack of coyotes ran by my tent, yipping, hunting ground squirrel. every morning in Yellowstone National Park. It never occurred to me to be afraid.

Gawd, let’s kill’em all before they get our women and children!

Shoving your fist down a canine’s mouth works if you expect the attacker to abandon it’s attack, disengage from you, and retreat; all because you make it want to barf. If your attacker doesn’t leave, however, you will need the full time use of your other arm just to hold onto the canine.

Now - while reading this - not then - with some strong, committed toothy animal thrashing about on your hand - is a good time for a short anatomy review. You have two arms. If all your arms are used, just keeping the attacker at bay, is this really a standoff? Are there other attackers to worry about? Will there be other attackers you haven’t seen who will be joining the attack? Which of you will outlast the other? How do you know when to let go?

If something ACTUALLY ATTACKS YOU, don’t piddle with it, just go about killing the damn thing.

If you are attacked by a canine, don’t turn away. Wrap some protection around your palm and the back of your hand if you have the time. If you don’t have the time, tough it out. Face your attacker and stay upright or as close to upright as you can remain. You want it to bite your hand. Keep your arm extended full length, your hand between you and the canine. (If you come to realize you’re about to fall and you are holding onto the canine, make the canine hit the ground first, with all your weight right on top of it.)

Canines, just as we do, bite by raising the lower jaw upward to press against the upper jaw. Unlike us, coyotes have a relatively long, protruding jaw. If you are attacked, the lower jaw will be dropped open to facilitate the bite. Grab the lower jaw and force it downward into the canine’s chest. It can’t force the top of its head down far enough or hard enough to do any damage. You wrapped your other arm around the back of the canine’s neck to stabilize all the thrashing, and to secure your grip. (That’s all pretty reflexive.) If things are going badly, viz-a-viz other canines, you can twist the canine whose jaw you have in your hand around and hold it with the same arm which is holding its jaw. This leaves your other arm to fend off other attackers.

If there aren’t other problems, retrieve a tool - rock, knife, tarp line, sleeping bag - to help subdue your attacker. If no tool is available, twist the canine’s neck up and/or to the side until the attack stops. You will break its neck and kill it, or obstruct its breathing until it loses consciousness. If you maintain your hold it will die. And, if you want it checked for rabies, you’ll need to take it’s head along with you.

Forget thrusting your hand down its throat, trying to get it to barf. Your hand probably won’t slide down the throat of a 35-40 pound coyote anyway. It’s a good trick, as far as it goes, but it uses up your energy and doesn’t necessarily end the problem. If something goes wrong with the more artful neck twisting, your fall-back is the barfing technique. Once you’ve regained your composure, go back to killing it.

Know this, you are going to be scratched up and filthy before it’s all over. You may also be quite bloody.

There’s nothing in the news release, or the initial and subsequent National Geographic links I read, which skeers me enough to worry about any of this.

Boy, am I going to be embarrassed if I ever have a coyote hanging off me.

[neighbor dave]

:-? i'm afeared man, really afeared!!!
must be another scare tactic from the current admin. where's homeland security??:jump

[Blue Jay]

Lions and coyotes and bears, oh my. Yet again I have to say please, please, stay under your beds. There are UFO's and man eating plants on the AT also.
Oh wait, they're coming to get me, AHHHHH.

[icemanat95]

Vi+

Lot of good ideas in there.

This sort of thing is why I ma converting back to a good stout hardwood hiking staff from my hiking poles. better than nothing stand off distance and reach, solid impact power and it can be utilized with standard sword and jo techniques that I am increasingly familiar with.

If something attacks you, kill it dead in the most expeditious manner possible. Don't fool around, don't be merciful, kust get the job done and end the threat as fast as possible. If it gets a good bite on you and tears into a major artery, you are going to fade REAL fast.

Choke outs. If you have any personal defense training at all, or if you have watched Mixed Martial Arts, UFC fighting, you'll have seen a fighter choke out an opponent in a matter of seconds. This is done by blocking blood flow through the carotid arteries without blocking airflow through the windpipe. dogs also have carotid arteries in about the same places as human's do (behind the jugular veins on either side of the windpipe. Close those off and the fight goes out of that canine FAST. Cut em with a sharp knife and the lights go out fast and permanent. Other vulnerable points are under the armpits and leg-pits major arteries and nerve plexii in there, stick the knife in deep and cut, you'll find something important. Just behind the shoulder and lower into the body are the lungs, punch a sharp stick in there or a longish knife and you'll take the fight out of them quick. A neck snap can be hard with a lightweight critter as you may have enough physical strength to move their whole body without overburdening the neck bones. You may have to pinion the body to prevent movement. Hard impact with a rock will probably get the job done more expeditiously for the average person.

Pain is a strong teacher. Cause the attacking animal enough pain fast enough and it'll probably break off the attack....notice I didn't say definitely. If the animal is rabid or starving or otherwise distressed already, a little pain may only goad it on.

This is really harsh talk and will probably offend a lot of folks sensibilities, after all, we all want to look on nature as a benevolent force of nurturing goodness. The reality is that it is an impersonal force that will kill you just as soon as let you live if you do something dumb or wind up in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's up to you to ensure your own safety. As we have become increasingly conscious of the need to have a diverse wildlife population, the clock has started rolling back and many wild populations, including large predators, are making comebacks and adapting to the human environments. Look to see more of them and to hear about and maybe experience more not so friendly encounters with them.

[Goon]

I've been hearing them more and more in the N.C. mountains over the past 10 years. Real spooky the first time, but kinda cool to hear late at night.:cool:

You are in the SC upstate? My mom has seen them in her yard and she lives near Clemson. They are everywhere these days.

[Lugnut]

==================================
This is starting to sound like something about "Coyote Ugly" I heard once upon a time ...

'Slogger

You must be refering to coyote arm. I've never had to chew my arm off but I do have some nasty scars!

[Newb]

But kind of hard to do when you're haulin' down the trail with a pack of wild a** rabid, droolin', hungry canines just a nippin' at your heels :p

What you do then is roll up some newspaper, smack the Coyote squarely on the nose and say, "Bad Doggie!" with an air of authority.

[Tin Man]

Coyotes roam all over the woods behind my home and sometimes pass between my house and the neighbors. I have a healthy respect for their presence and we leave each other alone. There has never been an incident with them that I am aware of. Fox have been coming around more often lately. I chased one out of the playground next to the ball park during a night game last summer. Many of the adults thought I was brave or some sort of a hero. The baseball bat I was carrying gave me a bit of a rush, but I really did not want to use it. Bears have been spotted in town and they have been know to attack garbage and bird feeders. Deer, turkeys, possum, raccoons, and many other furry creatures are all over the place. My wife ran over a turkey two weeks ago with her SUV. A large hawk plunged into my bushes going after a chipmunk two summers ago while I was sitting nearby. I love living close to nature and the animals. I do not fear them, but I have a healthy respect for them. I do not own a gun or hold anything against those that do. I suspect there will be more unfortunate incidents with the animals over time and we may have to find an effective way to deal with the animal populations. Perhaps I need to take defensive measures more seriously as my epipen and pocket knife are not going to be much help against a large creature unless I get them to die laughing when I assume a Kung Fu stance and throw my plastic fork at them.

Thanks Iceman for the educational posts. I always thought New England farms were abandoned, not because of Industrialization, but because Iowa grows dirt versus the New England's continuous bumper crop of rocks.

[icemanat95]

Thanks Iceman for the educational posts. I always thought New England farms were abandoned, not because of Industrialization, but because Iowa grows dirt versus the New England's continuous bumper crop of rocks.

That ain't no joke. Unless you live in a broad river valley, like the lower Connecticut River valley in Massachusetts and Connecticut, there really isn't that much land that you would really call "arable in New England. There's the odd valley here and there (The Keene area, where I live now, has a significant old flood plain with deep topsoil), but most of New England is bony hill, glacial moraine, outwash plains, etc. My property is on a plateau above a stream. I've got significant granite ledge through the property surrounded by sand and gravel. The topsoil over that isn't terrible, but a lot of it was brought in I think, judging by the property around mine.

I prefer to leave the wildlife alone most of the time. I originally wanted to hunt my property, but I get a bigger charge out of tracking it. Stalking is the fun part of hunting after all.

[Tin Man]

I prefer to leave the wildlife alone most of the time. I originally wanted to hunt my property, but I get a bigger charge out of tracking it. Stalking is the fun part of hunting after all.

I wonder if anyone has tried a paint gun on the beasties? You get to stalk and test your aim on a moving target. :rolleyes:

[icemanat95]

I wonder if anyone has tried a paint gun on the beasties? You get to stalk and test your aim on a moving target. :rolleyes:

That's probably not legal and is not really the point either. My goal is to get close to the animals without letting them know I'm there, so I can observe their behavior. If I stalk up and shoot the thing with a paintball I'm stressing the animals and quite possibly causing them to move on.

[vipahman]

...but most of New England is bony hill, glacial moraine, outwash plains, etc... Damn, so that's what it is. :eek:

[Tin Man]

That's probably not legal and is not really the point either. My goal is to get close to the animals without letting them know I'm there, so I can observe their behavior. If I stalk up and shoot the thing with a paintball I'm stressing the animals and quite possibly causing them to move on.

Good point. I was only joshing you. ;)

[LUMP]

coy dogs are a myth. a coyote would never mate with a domestic dog...

[Ender]

coy dogs are a myth. a coyote would never mate with a domestic dog...

What's your source for this? I'm almost sure that you are incorrect, but I could be wrong. I looked it up and found this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coy_dog

and

http://www.apetsblog.com/pets-journal/coydog-coyote-dog-hybrid.htm

It seems, while not common at all, it is possible, and has happened.

Correct me if I'm wrong though...

[Mags]

coy dogs are a myth. a coyote would never mate with a domestic dog...

:-?

Check out this pic of Coy:


http://www.pmags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=4281


And this link:
http://www.coyoterescue.org/coyhyb.html

Female dogs are more likely to mate with male coyotes, but not the other way around.

Coy dogs are not a myth...just not super common.

[JoeHiker]

All you folks talking about "rampant development". Do you have kids? I must assume not because otherwise, what do you think drives "rampant development"? Rampant demand, that's what. The development is demanded by the ever increasing population. More people need more houses, more stores, more condos, etc etc.

[Tin Man]

Rampant development to me means that it is unnecessary, unwanted and unused. Clearly the law of supply and demand is at work here as land is being developed and people are buying in. If we want to slow development, then we need to work with the government and private organizations to protect land. It appears the opposite is happening and government and private individuals are selling off land to the highest bidder. Whether we agree with so-called "rampant development" or not, supply and demand dictates what happens.

[Ridge]

No one has mentioned the fact that the hiker attacked was with his trail dog. Coyotes will stalk dogs, have actually been know to take small dogs while still on leash, with owner attached. Coyotes are pest, Domestic dogs on the trail are worse!

[Mr. Obvious]

Domestic dogs on the trail are worse?.. Please explain?

[EarthJourney]

Domestic dogs on the trail are worse?.. Please explain?

Dog nazi! :eek:

[icemanat95]

No one has mentioned the fact that the hiker attacked was with his trail dog. Coyotes will stalk dogs, have actually been know to take small dogs while still on leash, with owner attached. Coyotes are pest, Domestic dogs on the trail are worse!

Does that really matter? Are you saying the guy was asking for it for the simple reason that he was out with his dog? Come on. He was at an established campsite cooking his dinner, not poking his nose into a den or otherwise doing something to tick the coyote off.

[TOW]

Coyotes, wild dogs and wolves have one thing in common. They hunt in packs and have a leader. Try to find him and keep track of the relative position of others next to him. So when confronted by them, don't run unless you are close to safety. Stay your pace, wrap a jacket or shirt along one hand arm and kept it ready. If and when they charge, don't run. Turn and face the leader. Make eye contact. Most likely the leader will be the first to bite. Let him. Don't pull your hand out, shove it further down his throat. He will gag and maybe even throw up. Hit him hard on his nose with your free hand. Try to keep the other animals off you by keeping the leader in their way. Eventually, the leader will take a beating and give up and withdraw. That is the cue to attack the next most aggressive animal in the pack. Try to stand tall but protect your groin at the same time. The chance of success is pretty high if you are talking about 2 aggressive animals in the pack. 3 and above would be tough and I would be looking for my favorite alternative: tree.

Believe me when I say this has worked.

so out of curiosity, you sound like you really know how to handle a situation like this?

have "YOU" ever went thru such an ordeal to be able to really instruct those of us who have not?

you say we need to stand tall while protecting our groin? is that where they went on you?

come on we need to know, tell us, tell us...........

i really want to believe you..........

[KirkMcquest]

All you folks talking about "rampant development". Do you have kids? I must assume not because otherwise, what do you think drives "rampant development"? Rampant demand, that's what. The development is demanded by the ever increasing population. More people need more houses, more stores, more condos, etc etc.

Are you saying that we should just mindlessly go about building and building, until its all gone? We're powerless to do anything to save our open spaces, so why try? Is that your stance?

When housing prices go up, developers start buying up land to subdivide, build shoddy little houses all on top of each other and make a killing. Is that the only way? Should there be any restrictions? There are movements under way in certain parts of the country to regulate urban sprawl and force development to build UP not OUT. However, what typically happens is land is developed with no regard or plan in mind for preserving open spaces.


That's what rampant development means.

[KirkMcquest]

All you folks talking about "rampant development". Do you have kids? I must assume not because otherwise, what do you think drives "rampant development"? Rampant demand, that's what. The development is demanded by the ever increasing population. More people need more houses, more stores, more condos, etc etc.

By the way Joe, I agree with what your saying about having children.

FOLKS, WE'RE NOT REBUILDING AFTER THE FLOOD, YOU CAN STOP CRAPPING OUT A JILLION KIDS NOW.

PERHAPS IT'S TIME TO FIND SOME OTHER CREATIVE WAYS TO PUT MEANING INTO YOUR LIVES.

[Mr. Obvious]

Dog nazi! :eek:


Ich bin deutsch, schreibe ich und spreche sehr schlechtes Deutsch, aber NEIN, bin ich kein Nazi. Ich genieße nur Zeit draußen mit dem pooch.. ich lese mehr und mehr ungefähr etique, er ist ein kleiner Bursche, eine Rettung.. er wurde für die ersten 9 Monate seines Lebens missbraucht, deshalb ist er, nicht um irgendeinem Fremden zu nähern. Nein kein Hund Nazi..

[TOW]

Ich bin deutsch, schreibe ich und spreche sehr schlechtes Deutsch, aber NEIN, bin ich kein Nazi. Ich genieße nur Zeit draußen mit dem pooch.. ich lese mehr und mehr ungefähr etique, er ist ein kleiner Bursche, eine Rettung.. er wurde für die ersten 9 Monate seines Lebens missbraucht, deshalb ist er, nicht um irgendeinem Fremden zu nähern. Nein kein Hund Nazi..

hahahahaha:bse

[Mr. Obvious]

Yes. i am not a "dog nazi"..
We don't fool around with coyotes. Plain and simple..

Curious, what constitutes a "small dog".. ?

[Vi+]

Ridge,

My, my, my, trolling: “Coyotes are pest, Domestic dogs on the trail are worse!” (Post #68.)

I read a post on this site about a hiker’s dog chasing a bear, then bringing the PO’d bear back with him to the hiker. Park rangers repeatedly advise this is not an unusual way negative bear encounters are initiated.

I agree, in general, dogs usually become an active nuisance for other hikers. This, of course, identifies the hiker with the dog as being extremely self serving.

Here’s something for you guys who are bored, like to frighten others, or just want to be afraid of something, “Wild Turkeys Attack People”

http://www.talkaboutpets.com/group/rec.birds/messages/187937.html

[Vi+]

Mr. Obvious,

You ask (Post #77), “... what constitutes a ‘small dog’.. ?”

That would easily be operationally defined as, any dog attacked by a coyote.

See, I told you it was easy. Hope this helps.

[neighbor dave]

Ich bin deutsch, schreibe ich und spreche sehr schlechtes Deutsch, aber NEIN, bin ich kein Nazi. Ich genieße nur Zeit draußen mit dem pooch.. ich lese mehr und mehr ungefähr etique, er ist ein kleiner Bursche, eine Rettung.. er wurde für die ersten 9 Monate seines Lebens missbraucht, deshalb ist er, nicht um irgendeinem Fremden zu nähern. Nein kein Hund Nazi..
:-? translated this means;
I am German, I write and speak very bad German, but NO, I am not a Nazi. I enjoy only time outside with pooch.. I read more and more approximately etique, it is smaller Bur, a rescue. it was abused for the first 9 months of its life, therefore is it, not in order to approach any stranger. No no dog Nazi.:D

[Mr. Obvious]

Mr. Obvious,

You ask (Post #77), “... what constitutes a ‘small dog’.. ?”

That would easily be operationally defined as, any dog attacked by a coyote.

See, I told you it was easy. Hope this helps.


Why thanks...:D
Now i need to call NASA and have the research team put back to code yellow....

[Vi+]

There have been posts on this thread about the diminution of rural property, and consequent reduction of wild animal habitat, by suburbanites moving into rural areas. The notion that selfish rural dwellers will sell to anyone who offers them a buck seems to have a significant impact.

I bought a little more than 98 acres of rural property about eighteen years ago at a thousand dollars an acre. I commuted 66 miles to work and, of course, another 66 miles to return home. The county I live in was rural with one significant but small town; taxes were low. The property appreciated to $6,500 an acre about three years later. I predicted that, with that appreciation, so much property would be put up for sale the prices would drop back down.

I didn’t sell.

My prediction came to pass.

I have noticed there are two kinds of people living in the country: people who enjoy country living, and people who live here because they couldn’t afford to live in the suburbs they prefer. The transplanted suburbanites occupy the same houses they wish they had in the suburbs, remove any trees left by the bulder, and erect the same fences as the suburbs.

Rural dwellers don't demand as many goods and services as town and suburban dwellers. The transplants demand more. Taxes have risen to accomodate them.

Neighbors are welcome to hunt here, if they ask, and if they are lawful and hunt ethically. I have a new neighbor who hunts deer. Before they cleared his land and built his house, THE major deer path crossed outside what is now his kitchen door. He asked me where a good place is to hunt deer - I knew he was obliquely asking if he could hunt deer on my property, but he didn’t ask. I told him he should set his alarm and coffee maker for an hour before hunting light. He should preposition a comfortable chair and hassock on his kitchen porch, along with an electric blanket and extension cord. In the morning, all he needs is go outside 45 minutes before daylight, rest his rifle on the porch railing, get comfortable with his coffee and electric “blankey”, and wait.

Deer from all directions still troop by next to his porch. He still hunts elsewhere.

Undeveloped rural property has lately been selling for about $23,500 an acre.

I predict the: (1) high density commuter traffic from booming suburban home construction, (2) increasing cost of fuel, and (3) our artificial economy - (a) record breaking national debt [foreign countries hold more US debt than twice our National Net Worth; China holds more than half that debt], (b) virtually the same tax rate for the wealthy class as the middle class, (c) continuing deferment of the payment of our war, etc - our cost of living will increase sharply, health care costs will continue to rise, on average our incomes will stagnate at best, US world credit will decline in value, people will not be as willing to commute to rural areas, and rural land value will drop precipitously.

I haven’t sold.

Property has been reassessed, as is required by statute. If my property is taxed at its assessed value ($2,309,345), at the current rate, I won’t be able to afford to pay the taxes. I haven’t gained a penny from this property value increase. I live here because I love living here. If I sell, I’ll have to pay the same rate, plus selling and buying fees, to buy a replacement property unless I move completely out of the area.

So, if I sell, my sale won’t be discretionary, but born from necessity. The sale price will be for as much as I think I can get. When a ready, willing and able buyer and I agree on a price, that will be the value at that time. I realize all this is the result of market forces, just please don’t call me greedy when I’m forced to sell.

[Tin Man]

So, if I sell, my sale won’t be discretionary, but born from necessity. The sale price will be for as much as I think I can get. When a ready, willing and able buyer and I agree on a price, that will be the value at that time. I realize all this is the result of market forces, just please don’t call me greedy when I’m forced to sell.

Nope, you are not greedy, just bound by the law of supply and demand.

[KirkMcquest]

There have been posts on this thread about the diminution of rural property, and consequent reduction of wild animal habitat, by suburbanites moving into rural areas. The notion that selfish rural dwellers will sell to anyone who offers them a buck seems to have a significant impact.

I bought a little more than 98 acres of rural property about eighteen years ago at a thousand dollars an acre. I commuted 66 miles to work and, of course, another 66 miles to return home. The county I live in was rural with one significant but small town; taxes were low. The property appreciated to $6,500 an acre about three years later. I predicted that, with that appreciation, so much property would be put up for sale the prices would drop back down.

I didn’t sell.

My prediction came to pass.

I have noticed there are two kinds of people living in the country: people who enjoy country living, and people who live here because they couldn’t afford to live in the suburbs they prefer. The transplanted suburbanites occupy the same houses they wish they had in the suburbs, remove any trees left by the bulder, and erect the same fences as the suburbs.

Rural dwellers don't demand as many goods and services as town and suburban dwellers. The transplants demand more. Taxes have risen to accomodate them.

Neighbors are welcome to hunt here, if they ask, and if they are lawful and hunt ethically. I have a new neighbor who hunts deer. Before they cleared his land and built his house, THE major deer path crossed outside what is now his kitchen door. He asked me where a good place is to hunt deer - I knew he was obliquely asking if he could hunt deer on my property, but he didn’t ask. I told him he should set his alarm and coffee maker for an hour before hunting light. He should preposition a comfortable chair and hassock on his kitchen porch, along with an electric blanket and extension cord. In the morning, all he needs is go outside 45 minutes before daylight, rest his rifle on the porch railing, get comfortable with his coffee and electric “blankey”, and wait.

Deer from all directions still troop by next to his porch. He still hunts elsewhere.

Undeveloped rural property has lately been selling for about $23,500 an acre.

I predict the: (1) high density commuter traffic from booming suburban home construction, (2) increasing cost of fuel, and (3) our artificial economy - (a) record breaking national debt [foreign countries hold more US debt than twice our National Net Worth; China holds more than half that debt], (b) virtually the same tax rate for the wealthy class as the middle class, (c) continuing deferment of the payment of our war, etc - our cost of living will increase sharply, health care costs will continue to rise, on average our incomes will stagnate at best, US world credit will decline in value, people will not be as willing to commute to rural areas, and rural land value will drop precipitously.

I haven’t sold.

Property has been reassessed, as is required by statute. If my property is taxed at its assessed value ($2,309,345), at the current rate, I won’t be able to afford to pay the taxes. I haven’t gained a penny from this property value increase. I live here because I love living here. If I sell, I’ll have to pay the same rate, plus selling and buying fees, to buy a replacement property unless I move completely out of the area.

So, if I sell, my sale won’t be discretionary, but born from necessity. The sale price will be for as much as I think I can get. When a ready, willing and able buyer and I agree on a price, that will be the value at that time. I realize all this is the result of market forces, just please don’t call me greedy when I’m forced to sell.

VI, I don't know anything about your local tax situation, but I know some folks who have had their lots classified as 'farms' ( I've even heard of wood farms, for selling firewood), this creates a huge land tax reduction. I'm sure you've probably heard of this. No?

[Tin Man]

VI, I don't know anything about your local tax situation, but I know some folks who have had their lots classified as 'farms' ( I've even heard of wood farms, for selling firewood), this creates a huge land tax reduction. I'm sure you've probably heard of this. No?

My neighbor keeps a few cows for the tax benefits, but sometimes he complains about the extra forms he has to fill out and harassment from people who complain about the junk he keeps in the yard and waiting for the cows to cross the road. To the complainers, I say MOOve. :D

[Vi+]

Kirk,

You advise (Post #84), “I know some folks who have had their lots classified as 'farms' ... this creates a huge land tax reduction.” And, you ask, “I'm sure you've probably heard of this. No?”

Good point. I had forgotten.

66 acres is classified as being in “Land Use” and, as such, is taxed at (I believe) half the rate ($775,500). The remaining 32+ acres are taxed at the prevailing rate ($758,345). This leaves a tax value of $1,533,845 for the land which is still a high tax liability for me. A tax value equaling the entire national debt isn’t much less feasible for payment.

I hope no one forwards this to the current administration. Just think, if the government shifted the national debt to me, it would be tied up in court for years, and during that period of time the government could declare the debt an “asset” owed the government.

[Mr. Clean]

I love the avatar. That must have been quite a shock.

I'm goin' to try some whacking here pretty soon, myself. How hard was Mt. Kanc comparatively speaking?
:banana

[neighbor dave]

I love the avatar. That must have been quite a shock.

I'm goin' to try some whacking here pretty soon, myself. How hard was Mt. Kanc comparatively speaking?
:banana

piece o cake, gonna whack barren in baxter in june. now that's a toughy. no less than 12 hours i've heard. got a real doozy in the works fer 4th of july. stay tuned. it'll make even the hardest core whackers gasp!!:eek:

[weary]

There have been posts on this thread about the diminution of rural property, and consequent reduction of wild animal habitat, by suburbanites moving into rural areas. The notion that selfish rural dwellers will sell to anyone who offers them a buck seems to have a significant impact.

I bought a little more than 98 acres of rural property about eighteen years ago at a thousand dollars an acre. I commuted 66 miles to work and, of course, another 66 miles to return home. The county I live in was rural with one significant but small town; taxes were low. The property appreciated to $6,500 an acre about three years later. I predicted that, with that appreciation, so much property would be put up for sale the prices would drop back down.

I didn’t sell.
......Undeveloped rural property has lately been selling for about $23,500 an acre.
........
I haven’t sold.

Property has been reassessed, as is required by statute. If my property is taxed at its assessed value ($2,309,345), at the current rate, I won’t be able to afford to pay the taxes. I haven’t gained a penny from this property value increase. I live here because I love living here. If I sell, I’ll have to pay the same rate, plus selling and buying fees, to buy a replacement property unless I move completely out of the area.

So, if I sell, my sale won’t be discretionary, but born from necessity. The sale price will be for as much as I think I can get. When a ready, willing and able buyer and I agree on a price, that will be the value at that time. I realize all this is the result of market forces, just please don’t call me greedy when I’m forced to sell.
Well, most of us have options. When age, debts and what not "forced" me to sell 23 acres of woodland abutting a land trust preserve, I offered it to the land trust for half its appraised value. When the land trust refused twice, I offered it through a real estate agent -- but with the restriction that it couldn't be divided into more than two house lots. Why? I didn't want a major development next to a preserve I had helped create.

Just as the sale was going through, the land trust realized its mistake, but sadly it was too late. I had already committed myself to a buyer and an agent had worked diligently on my behalf.

We all make choices in this world, some make greedy choices, some compromise with their greed.

When I filed my taxes this year the software program I used issued me too warnings:

-- My wife and I pay more property taxes than others with our income. (the house and land I bought 43 years ago fronts on what was then a polluted a tidal estuary, but which is now a very clean estuary. Being greedy I can't imagine giving up my view of the marsh, the river, the tidal basin and the historic village with it's historic church a mile across the water, and selling out)

--We donate quite a bit more money than others with our income. (mostly to the two land trusts in which I'm active, and to my wife's church. Yeah, you guessed right, it's the church we can see across the water.)

Weary

[Vi+]

Weary,

Good suggestions.

You advised (Post #89), “... I offered (a 23 acre lot) to the land trust for half its appraised value. When the land trust refused twice, I offered it through a real estate agent -- but with the restriction that it couldn't be divided into more than two house lots.” You eventually sold the property to a private buyer.

Were you able to pass your desired not “... more than two house lots.” restriction on to the new buyer such that it will continue running with the land?

There is some conversion process in this county and/or state, with which I'm not all that familiar, allowing landowners to restrict property use and pass the restriction on to future buyers. The land owner gains some immediate benefit from restricting his land. I’ll look into it.

I’m not too concerned at this point, since I’m not unique. There are a lot of farms and acreage around here consisting of huge parcels of land. Since it’s not possible to pay market value for farmland already and make the mortgage payment, growing any legal crop, I expect a widespread uproar if the land value inflation isn’t offset by a reduced tax rate. The downside of being too complacent is, there will be so many people “donating” or “restricting” the use of their land the county will have to close the program before it loses too much of its tax base.

The other side of this coin is, should I or my wife require assisted living, life becomes extremely expensive at that point. Since my retirement is an annuity, even if we have nothing, I will never qualify for financial aid to apply to an assisted living facility. The chance at this time is great that no facility expecting nearly full occupancy will allow either of us entrance.

Congratulations on securing your view and helping out the land trusts and your church.

We've strayed a long way from killer coyotes, but thanks.

[weary]

Weary,

Good suggestions.

You advised (Post #89), “... I offered (a 23 acre lot) to the land trust for half its appraised value. When the land trust refused twice, I offered it through a real estate agent -- but with the restriction that it couldn't be divided into more than two house lots.” You eventually sold the property to a private buyer.

Were you able to pass your desired not “... more than two house lots.” restriction on to the new buyer such that it will continue running with the land?.....
In retrospect I wish I had been more sophisticated in my two-lot restriction. Technically, I guess I can enforce the restriction and probably my heirs can, though the latter will have little incentive to do so, I suspect, especially when it reaches down to grandkids and great grandkids. I probably should have given the land trust an easement that would allow them to also be the enforcer.

Maine offers a variety of programs designed to protect open space, farm lands and woodlands. Essentially, if you enroll your land in these programs you get sharply reduced tax bills -- as little as 5 percent of what the normal tax would be. But all come with a sharp penalty if you or a future owner opt out of the arrangement.

And unfortunately all come with the possibility of fraud. Wealthy people sometimes try to convince planning boards that their fringe of waterfront qualifies as "open space" and thus they should escape paying taxes on waterfront values, though, of course, they keep most of the benefits of waterfront living. They can walk to the water, see the water, launch boats from the land into the water, etc.

Protecting land is an increasingly complicated business. But many states have a non profit organization that can offer advice. In Maine it's the Maine Coast Heritage Trust, which buys land and accepts land on its own, and also works with local land trusts and landowners to protect important parcels.

Weary

[neo]

Excellent... I'm really looking forward to hiking through mass now :-).

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/8833811/detail.html?rss=bos&psp=news

coyote's they are every where.every time i go backpacking i hear them
yeping and making all kinds of noise:cool: neo

[Tin Man]

coyote's they are every where.every time i go backpacking i hear them
yeping and making all kinds of noise:cool: neo

Actually, you are hearing tenters trying to scare hammockers. :cool:

[woodsy]

If you hear a pack of coyotes yipping in the night from a distance, you are not on their dinner menu because the kill has already been made and they are sounding the dinner bell for others to come eat. Don't worry, be happy.
It's when they are silent ...... they be stalking.

[lobster]

"Coyote Attacked by Hiker Pack" !!!

Now that wouldn't be all that shocking a news story considering the ravenous nature of hikers after a few hundred miles on The Trail.

[Ridge]

"Coyote Attacked by Hiker Pack" !!!

Now that wouldn't be all that shocking a news story considering the ravenous nature of hikers after a few hundred miles on The Trail.

Yea, some of them Coyots look mighty cute!!

[Ramble~On]

While stationed at Camp Pendleton, California we'd spend day upon day "out in the field" Sometimes moving at night...other times sitting motionless.
I was a sniper in the Marines and spent countless hours looking through optics of one kind or another....and I've seen some damn big Coyote.
Working in two man teams...we would sometimes go for hours without making a sound or moving an inch......any MRE wrappers with a food odor attract critters and it was always kinda cool to see Coyotes follow the scent trail to my position....if the wind was right and my hide was good I'd let them come pretty close before I scare the s#*t out of them...
What really sucked was when they would turn the tables and sneak up on me.:eek:
I like to hike solo.....I've seen Coyote in N.C., TN. but have never given any thought to have them start thinking about ripping me open for dinner...:-?

[Spock]

On trapping coyotes:
Guys I know who trap professionally say coyotes are the most difficult animal to trap. Here in Texas, no amount of trapping, poisoning or bounty hunting has worked. Years ago in my misspent youth, when I hunted them for bounty (calling them to blinds is easier than trapping) , I learned to respect them. I never, ever found a farm animal bigger than a chicken that had been killed by a coyote. I have watched them nose new-born calves and leave them unharmed. When farmers called me to see a "calf killed by the wolves" (Texas farmers call them 'wolves'.) the calf was invariably dead of other causes. It's pretty easy to tell from blood patterns.
Wildlife scientists have found that coyotes have two characterists besides raw intelligence that lead to expanded range and population. First, the females produce larger litters when under stress and/or low population density. Second, family groups adopt larger ranges, causing the population to spread faster. In other words, the things we do to reduce coyote populations increase their population and range both.
I have enjoyed watching coyotes playing in Pennsylvania - along the AT - about 30 yards from my blind and I like their singing at night. Get to know them and you will find out why Coyote was important to Native Americans.