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dirtnap
05-06-2006, 21:16
Interesting thing happened to me in Erwin, TN, today.

I was walking back from the Food Lion with my resupply when, out of nowhere, sheriff Kent Harris whips his cruiser in front of me and comes to a quick stop. He looks like he means business.

Naturally, I am confused. Did a fight just break out behind me, in the parking lot of the gas station turned used car lot? I look around and see nothing unusual. I figured he must want to talk to me so I take a few steps closer.

Sitting in his car with the window down he says "I just got a call from a lady who says she saw someone, matching your description, put something in his pocket at the Food Lion." Maybe not ver batim, but close.

I was shocked. What are the chances that someone would call the police for something that never happened? Was there an unseen wallet display at the checkout and someone got confused as I put my wallet back in my pocket after paying? Nothing like this had ever happened to me before.

I tell him there must be some mistake and offer to show him my reciepts from Food Lion and the dollar store. He demands to see my I.D. and I tell him I think its in my backpack at Miss Janet's. He asks what I would be doing without my papers on me. I say "I didn't think I would need a driver's license license to walk to the store."

He asks for my name and birthday. As I respond I notice a balding, whit-haired, fat man of about 65 years waddling towards the sheriff and me (not 'the sheriff and I'). The sheriff seems to know him, and he joins in the interrogation.

Is this the "lady" who was my accuser? He was certainly too old and out-of-shaped to be a police officer. I wondered who he was as I explained to them both that I was a hiker staying at Miss Janet's. Despite my having receipts they both seem hostile.

When am I leaving town? Tomorrow. The sheriff wants to see what I have in my pockets. He searches through my wallet, glancing at the business cards and making sure there is nothing hidden in it.

"I thought you said you didn't have your I.D. on you." the sheriff says.

"Oh, It's in there? I usually keep it in my pack."

"I find it mighty suspicious that you said you didn't have I.D., but here I find are two pieces of I.D." He refers to my invalid driver's license and my old Mercedes security badge.

"That's not I.D. It's just an old security badge from Mercedes, where I worked as a contractor for a few months last year."

A few more questions. Sheriff mentions there's backup on the way. The old, dim-witted guy asks for my social security number.

My mind asks "Who the hell are you?", but, in the interest of cooperation, I say, "I don't remember."

"You don't know your number?" Sheriff demands.

"No! Hell, I don't remember the last time I needed it."

The deputy's car pulls up. Words. Sheriff says my record is clean. Words. He practically insists I let his deputy drive me the last two blocks to Miss Janet's, yet the offer did not seem to arise by way of apology or kindness.

"I don't think Miss Janet would appreciate hikers getting dropped off at her house by the cops. It's only two blocks or so and I'd rather walk."

And so I walked. . .

Later, I asked around town and was told that my description of the old man matched the mayor, Bushy Lewis. Being Saturday, the mayor's office was closed; but I was told he has a second office at the sheriff's department, where he can often be found.

So I walk to the sheriff's department. I stand in the courtyard and collect my thoughts for a minute. Should I go to there sheriff first to find out if there really had been a phone call about a crime that never happened? Would it be recorded in a dispatch log? How could I politely ask the mayor if he is concerned about Erwin's developing a reputation as a city where one has no protection agains unreasonable search?

As I stand there this deputy-looking guy in a Kent Harris Track Team T-shirt walks up and asks me what I'm doing. I reply,"I've got some free time and I wanted to take a look at your beautifull city."

Deputy: "You have to leave the area. We've had problems with people getting drugs to the prisoners."

Me: "There's a jail here?"

He points to the second floor. I want to ask why they don't just put bars over the windows, so someone couldn't stand where I was and throw drugs up to the second floor prisoners. Instead, I walk away. . .

only to return in a little while with a formulated plan: go talk to the mayor in a friendly manner and see if he's the same guy from earlier. A different guy intercepts me at the front door, says the mayor's not in, and tells me I can come back Monday.

So, the big question is: Would a cop fabricate a crime in order to justify his unwarranted search and interogation?

Something stinks in Erwin, and it ain't just the hikers.

-dirtnap

Big Dawg
05-06-2006, 21:36
Sounds like Barney Fife is loose in Erwin,,,, LOL!

fishinfred
05-06-2006, 22:19
Dirtnap, that REALLY does stink! Try going back to Food Lion and ask the manager if they had a problem and called something in to the police .....
If they didn't ....it REALLY REALLY STINKS!
Hope you can put it behind you and enjoy the rest of your hike ....and remember there's a Barney Fife in every town
FF

ed bell
05-06-2006, 22:24
So, the big question is: Would a cop fabricate a crime in order to justify his unwarranted search and interogation? With all due respect to any law enforcement officers who are members here, I really believe that some police officers will lie in order to either get the information they want, or to harass someone they believe to be suspicious. Sounds like you got harassed, but fortunately were a law abiding citizen. Unfortunate run in with the law. With all due respect to you, hikers can look like vagrants and small town police have the time to be suspicious about these matters. Walk on and put it behind you.

Buckles
05-06-2006, 22:40
In an effort to be objective.....

1) you don't know if you have your identification on you (?), 2) you're carrying an invalid driver's license (essentially, your most important government-issued photo ID is expired), 3) for some reason, you're in possession of and holding onto a security pass from a company you don't work for anymore, and 4) you're 32 years old and don't know your Social Security number?

Maybe, just maybe, you need to step back and say, "Given the above, how cooperative am I to law enforcement and their investigation?" You apparently fit the description given by a reported caller, you "cooperated" with the investigation and you were sent on your way. No harm, no foul. You were even offered a ride for your inconvenience.

We do not live is a society of anarchy. As citizens, we have some basic, primary responsibilities. Let's see; carry ID, keep it up to date, don't carry ID that doesn't belong to you or effectively is inappropriate to be on your person, and know your SS# (most of us know that before we get out of high school).

Now, before you start slinging the fascist comments my way...for the record, I'm a card carrying, bona-fide, dyed-in-the-wool liberal. In my humble opinion, you're trying to create an event where none existed. When you get off the trail, or along the way, you might consider updating your identification, memorizing a nine digit number and ridding yourself of documents you should probably not be carrying around.

Happy Trails!

Frosty
05-07-2006, 00:06
In an effort to be objective.....

1) you don't know if you have your identification on you (?), 2) you're carrying an invalid driver's license (essentially, your most important government-issued photo ID is expired), 3) for some reason, you're in possession of and holding onto a security pass from a company you don't work for anymore, and 4) you're 32 years old and don't know your Social Security number?

Maybe, just maybe, you need to step back and say, "Given the above, how cooperative am I to law enforcement and their investigation?" You apparently fit the description given by a reported caller, you "cooperated" with the investigation and you were sent on your way. No harm, no foul. You were even offered a ride for your inconvenience.

We do not live is a society of anarchy. As citizens, we have some basic, primary responsibilities. Let's see; carry ID, keep it up to date, don't carry ID that doesn't belong to you or effectively is inappropriate to be on your person, and know your SS# (most of us know that before we get out of high school).

Now, before you start slinging the fascist comments my way...for the record, I'm a card carrying, bona-fide, dyed-in-the-wool liberal. No fascist comments, but I cannot read the first three paragraphs and believe the last one.

Regarding your four points in the first paragraph, none violate any laws. And none of this was known by the sheriff BEFORE he started hassling the guy.

I think the Ed Bell had it right. He looked lilke a trouble maker might look, and was hassled for it. The sheriff could have gotten lucky and found drugs on the guy, but he was clean. No matter. If the sheriff keeps doing this to everyone he sees that looks like he might have drugs, eventually he'll find some and make an arrest.

The problem with all this is that the search is done without cause. If you are okay with searching without cause as long as it ends up nabbing a few people possessing drugs, that is certainly your right.Many people feel that way. But you will need to turn in your flaming liberal card, and get a law-and-order-at-any-cost conservative card :D

Buckles
05-07-2006, 00:48
No fascist comments, but I cannot read the first three paragraphs and believe the last one.

Regarding your four points in the first paragraph, none violate any laws. And none of this was known by the sheriff BEFORE he started hassling the guy.

I think the Ed Bell had it right. He looked lilke a trouble maker might look, and was hassled for it. The sheriff could have gotten lucky and found drugs on the guy, but he was clean. No matter. If the sheriff keeps doing this to everyone he sees that looks like he might have drugs, eventually he'll find some and make an arrest.

The problem with all this is that the search is done without cause. If you are okay with searching without cause as long as it ends up nabbing a few people possessing drugs, that is certainly your right.Many people feel that way. But you will need to turn in your flaming liberal card, and get a law-and-order-at-any-cost conservative card :D

It's not about dirtnap violating a law regarding having proper ID, it's about common sense. Time to grow up. As for the sheriff, I'm not condoning his behavior, IF he was manufacturing the situation. Maybe he was in pursuit of the reported crime, or a falsely reported crime (and the sheriff didn't know that). In a thread posted by The Only Wanderer early this week, he points out that Erwin deputies were giving hikers rides from the trail to Miss Janet's. Mmmm. The best way to clear yourself from a police investigation; have and show your valid ID, don't have conflicting ID, then move on.

ed bell
05-07-2006, 01:20
The best way to clear yourself from a police investigation; have and show your valid ID, don't have conflicting ID, then move on.
This is an important point considering that we have no idea what led to the incounter. I acknowledge the fact that citizens have the right to freely travel about this great country on foot without current, valid "papers", but if you do not have ID, SS# or any otherway of confirming who you are, there will be hassels if you get tangled up with the law. Hopefully dirtnap will shore up his ID situation and won't get hassled for no reason again.:)

Lugnut
05-07-2006, 02:00
I read about a court case where it was decided that a citizen was not required to even give their name to any government represenative with out just cause. You sure don't have to furnish your social security number. I think I would have told him to stuff it; I would also probably be upstairs in the jail on a trumped up charge right about now. :rolleyes:

ed bell
05-07-2006, 02:37
I would also probably be upstairs in the jail on a trumped up charge right about now. :rolleyes:I'd bail ya out:sun

Nean
05-07-2006, 11:24
Hey dirtnap, sorry about your experience in Erwin. I must admit however that when I saw you, you didn't strike me as a hiker. After talking to you, you did strike me as a nice person though. If you had the same problem I asked you to deal with in Hot Springs then you probably offended just about anyone in the store. Enough so that someone thought you were a vagrant and not welcome....
It's wrong to stereotype but people do and as a hiker you could probably do more to avoid a stereotype.

neighbor dave
05-07-2006, 12:36
erwin:-? .... get in ,get out. nuff said

Jack Tarlin
05-07-2006, 12:47
Actually, its be a shame if people did a "Get In, Get Out" in Erwin. In recent years it's turned into one of the friendliest towns on the Trail: Great places to stay, eat, shop, etc. and very friendly townspeople. I'm sorry D. evidently had a problem there, but this is absolutely NOT something that happens regularly in Erwin, and people shouldn't judge the town, its citizens, or even its police department based on this one incident.

P.S. Nean raised an interesting point. I also met D. in Hot Springs and he's a perfectly nice guy, but he was NOT dressed like a typical hiker during most of his town stay; he did indeed look more like a stereotypical "vagrant" (or at least he would have seemed so in many people's eyes); police officers in Trail towns, as well as many Trail town citizens, are accustomed to how hikers generally look, but someone who is wearing offbeat clothes, has unkempt hair, etc., is always going to attract extra attention from folks, including cops. This may be unfair to folks who've done absolutely nothing wrong, but that's the way it is. Whether it's a small Southern town or a big Northern city, some folks are going to judge you on how you look, and unfortunately, one's appearance might attract unwanted attention from citizens and police.

weary
05-07-2006, 15:08
...for the record, I'm a card carrying, bona-fide, dyed-in-the-wool liberal.
Not by any definition of "liberal." that makes sense to me.

Having served in the military police, once thought about joining a small town police force, and covered small town police as a newspaper reporter for a number of years, it's my suspicion that the sheriff deputy involved was bored and playing games with a hiker.

REgardless of the reasons for stopping the hiker, the sheriff strikes me as totally unprofessional and the hiker had every right to be upset.

FWIW, I would not have given out my Social Security number, especially with an unidentified observer standing there listening.

There's increasing agitation from alleged "conservatives" to require national identification papers. But we aren't there yet and with luck and wisdom enough of those will be voted out of office soon.

Weary

BooBoo
05-07-2006, 15:39
If you are ever harressed by the cops file a complaint with the respective dept ie Sherriff,City,State Trooper etc. Nothing will come of it but the complint will be on the officers record.

Footslogger
05-07-2006, 16:44
Something stinks in Erwin, and it ain't just the hikers.

-dirtnap
================================
Are you the same Dirtnap from 2003 ?? If so ...remember the Holiday Inn ??

'Slogger

CaptChaos
05-07-2006, 23:25
Hello Group:

When we were first married and living in Tampa, FL I was stopped by a black and white unit on my way to pick up my wife who was dropping her care off at the dealership for repair.

I had been doing yard work and had only my shorts on with no wallet on me. The police pulled me over on the side of the road, came to me asking for id and I had none, ran the plates on my car and made me stand outside my car in the afternoon sun for about 26 min. I asked two times why I was being detained from my travels and I was told both times by the officers to keep my mouth shut. I then waited and after about 20 more min I asked for the officers to again tell me why I was being detained and I was told to shut up and at that time I requested that the officers either call their shift supervisor, tell me why I was being detained or let me go or arrest me.

At this point the officers got ticked off and when I again requested that my rights were being infringed upon they told me to get in my car and leave and next time have id on me.

Now this is where I get upset with law enforcement. Just tell me why and I am ok with that. But you dont do this to people and not tell them the reason why. I never was told even when I called the next day and complained to the Tampa Police Department since I worked downtown for Price Waterhouse.

Now years later, my sisters-in-law got pulled over in Greenville, KY and they were put in the back of a cruiser and held for 30 min and then let go but they were told that they fit the description of two women who had robbed a store and they were wearing bandanas. They understood the reason and the officers treated them fine. To this day they do not wear bandanas and they have retired from teaching. In their case they have never felt that it was a problem just the police doing their jobs and they had the wrong persons.

This is my beef as I have said with law enforcement. I follow the law and I pay my taxes but I won't stand for this kind of treatment without a reason being given. This is still the United States of America and until someone lets me know that it has changed I will always demand for the officers to tell me why I am being detained.

Years ago my father who was a retired banker was pulled over on his way to visit his sister in Ohio. Mom and Dad had moved from Ohio and had moved to KY. When the officer started asking questions on why a car from KY was driving around town in the middle of the night my father told the officer that he was on his way to his sisters house and he wanted to know why he was being stopped. At this time the officer started slapping his flashlight in his hand and told my father that he would ask the questions. To my Dads credit, he told the officer that unless he intended to use it against a 66 years old man that he had better put the light up or Dad offered to put it somewhere on the officer where the sun did not shine. At this point the officer got cute and my father picked up his cell phone called his sister and told her to call the police chief who Dad had went to school with and played on the same football team. At this the officers backed off and when the call came from the chief they got in their car and drove away. Dad was pulled over for having KY plates on the car. No other reason, but he did get a sorry from the police chief.

It happens folks, and if you don't stand up for your rights and demand to be treated fairly by law enforcement then stories like this will continue.

John

Ewker
05-07-2006, 23:35
Hello Group:

When we were first married and living in Tampa, FL I was stopped by a black and white unit on my way to pick up my wife who was dropping her care off at the dealership for repair.

I had been doing yard work and had only my shorts on with no wallet on me. The police pulled me over on the side of the road, came to me asking for id and I had none, ran the plates on my car and made me stand outside my car in the afternoon sun for about 26 min. I asked two times why I was being detained from my travels and I was told both times by the officers to keep my mouth shut. I then waited and after about 20 more min I asked for the officers to again tell me why I was being detained and I was told to shut up and at that time I requested that the officers either call their shift supervisor, tell me why I was being detained or let me go or arrest me.

At this point the officers got ticked off and when I again requested that my rights were being infringed upon they told me to get in my car and leave and next time have id on me.

Now this is where I get upset with law enforcement. Just tell me why and I am ok with that. But you dont do this to people and not tell them the reason why. I never was told even when I called the next day and complained to the Tampa Police Department since I worked downtown for Price Waterhouse.
John


maybe I missed something and if I did tell me, but you were driving a car with no drivers license (ID). I see why they detained you. I don't understand why they didn't just say you were driving without a license that is why but surely you knew that

CaptChaos
05-07-2006, 23:42
Fair question. I was following my wife in her car to the dealership when the black and white pulled in behind me and pulled me over.

My issue was not having my wallet, and if I was wrong I would have paid the fine if that was the case. The point that you missed was WHY was I pulled over. It was never told to me. I had my car title and insurance card so there was some id just not my drivers lic and that never was the issue.

I was detained and never told why. What was the reason for being pulled over??? Never given, the fact that I did not have my drivers lic is not part of the reason for being pulled over. The guys and gals of the Tampa Police Force are good but not that good to pull me over for not having my wallet on me.

Does that answer your question?

John

Ewker
05-07-2006, 23:53
yep it does and I agree that they should have said why they pulled you over. Unfortunately it seems the police don't need a reason anymore to pull you over.

I didn't know you were following your wife when this happened. She could vouch for you..well maybe ;)

CaptChaos
05-07-2006, 23:58
Yeah, that would have been nice but she was already ahead of me and she never saw them pull me over, she just wondered why I was not there to pick her up.

dirtnap
05-08-2006, 07:32
Footslogger: Yeah, It's dirtnap from '03.

Jack and Nean, I agree with your posts. I could certainly do more to attract less attention.

Bedouin: I disagree with every point of your analysis of a citizen's basic responsibilities, but I appreciate your opinion.

My father is a retired Michigan state cop. He taught me to cooperate with good cops, and to have disdain for bad cops who overstep their bounds, abuse their authority, or have no people skills. Being a good cop is all about dealing with people effectively and respectfully.

It's scary how many people are under the impression that one must carry his or her I.D. around at all times. A driver's license is for driving. If a cop is legitimately investigating a crime, you must cooperate. Having I.D. just makes a cop's job easier. Rather than help a bad cop, I feel civil disobedience is best. If he wants to violate my Constitutional rights, he's going to have to work for it and do his own investigation.

I don't drive anymore, so I've been thinking of getting rid of all I.D. anyway. If a cop feels like hauling me down to the station and holding me for 24 hours while confirming my identity I'm cool with that. Of course, I would consider a civil suit against all parties involved for false imprisonment and violating the rights of a protected class.

-dirtnap

generoll
05-08-2006, 08:12
all though it's frequently a requirement for loan applications and such, to my knowledge the police are not allowed to demand your social security number. i think that your social seciurity card even has a statement on it to the effect that it is not to be used as a form of i.d.. sounds like a small town cop with too much time on his hands.

MOWGLI
05-08-2006, 08:58
I don't think this is nearly as complex as people are making it out to be. Most cops are good people. Some are jerks. That's a fact.

I probably would have handled the matter a little differently if I was the hiker being hassled. The thing to do is defuse the incident immediately. Humor usually works pretty good. A liberal sprinkling of no sirs & yes sirs doesn't hurt either, although if the fat bald guy asked me for my SS#, I would have responded quickly and told him what I thought of that question (he undoubtedly wouldn't have liked my response). Your SS# is nobodys damn business.

Be friendly & kind. Be positive. Be self assured. Your liklihood of getting hassled if you do those things is pretty remote.

Nean
05-08-2006, 09:28
[quote=dirtnap] the mayor's not in, and tells me I can come back Monday.

So, the big question is: Would a cop fabricate a crime in order to justify his unwarranted search and interogation?

Something stinks in Erwin, and it ain't just the hikers.

-dirtnap[/quote/]

Well, its Monday. I'd get cleaned up and go have a chat.:-?

Mother's Finest
05-08-2006, 10:39
Do some members of law enforcement lie when it suits them?
absolutely

does it follow from this that all police are bad?
no

they have the guns folks. not a whole heck of a lot you could do in the situation as described. like some others have said, being polite makes more sense than not.

real display of power of the people? the illegal immigrant rallies that have taken place in the past month or so. hundreds of thousands of law breakers in the streets, and virtually no visible police presence (at least none that the networks let us see)

always remember that with every law made, we are one step closer to a totalitarian state.

peace
mf

Heater
05-08-2006, 11:24
always remember that with every law made, we are one step closer to a totalitarian state.

peace
mf

Ain't that the truth!

TROUBLE
05-08-2006, 11:54
Dirtnap.its Me Trouble.when You And I Shared Room In Franklin You Seemed Straigt Up.sorry You Got Hassled Man.cop Probably Didn't Like The Jesus Look.

LIhikers
05-08-2006, 13:42
............Why is it that everyone wants to know your social security number to use as identification when it says, right on my SS card, not to be used as identification?????

Crazy Larry #1
05-08-2006, 16:09
Footslogger:

I don't drive anymore, so I've been thinking of getting rid of all I.D. anyway. If a cop feels like hauling me down to the station and holding me for 24 hours while confirming my identity I'm cool with that. Of course, I would consider a civil suit against all parties involved for false imprisonment and violating the rights of a protected class.

-dirtnapwell i don't think you would have a chance of ever winning with the laws constantly changing since 911. think about it, it's a wonder we don't have to show our identification everytime we cross a state line..........

CaptChaos
05-08-2006, 16:16
What, we don't have to show id when we go from KY to Ohio over the bridge? What the h*** is going on here.

CaptChaos

neighbor dave
05-08-2006, 16:41
:-? pigs= gang in blue.
:-? code of silence sheeit stinks reel bad. can't trust 'em nuff said

Sly
05-08-2006, 16:42
think about it, it's a wonder we don't have to show our identification everytime we cross a state line..........

I think that's covered under the 4th Amendment. Of course, with the cabal in charge now and their continuing disregard for the consitution, yeah, it's a wonder.

astrogirl
05-08-2006, 20:38
I think that's covered under the 4th Amendment. Of course, with the cabal in charge now and their continuing disregard for the consitution, yeah, it's a wonder.

No. Sorry, this started a long time ago. The 4th amendment went bye-bye with the drug war and the Clinton administration did nothing about it either.

Illegal search and seizure are common place and due process has been denied to Americans in the name of the drug war since the early 90s. Don't waste your energy on Bush. Throw out your congress critters before they pass another piece of crap like the anti-Rave law or the Methamphetamine Anti-Proliferation Act.

People complain about the Patriot act, but it's nothing more than the icing on the ***** cake that our elected officials have been baking up for 20 years, regardless of whether they call themselves Democrats or Republicans.

Remember, it's all for the children and the hell with you!

Wow, I get so ticked about stuff like this.

Sorry that happened to you, Dirtnap, but I hope we all take notice and think about what we can do to stop the police state before it's too late.

Lone Wolf
05-08-2006, 20:42
Yeah. Anarchy rules.:rolleyes:

Frolicking Dinosaurs
05-08-2006, 20:50
Yeah. Anarchy rules.:rolleyes:I love this place.

grrickar
05-08-2006, 21:18
I don't think you can blame anyone besides the officer in cases like this - he was out of line and he quite likely knew it but felt he could get away with it.

When I was younger and a bit more naive I had an officer hassle me because I was picking up a friend at a skating rink. My friend was 16, and so was I. He had a date with my girlfriend's friend. The officer told me I was not picking up anyone under no circumstances, and my friend brushed by him and told him what he thought of that comment. Then the cop got smart with me and started giving me crap. I told him to drop the badge and the belt and I would deliver the arse-whoppin of a lifetime out in the parking lot (he probably still laughs about that, because he was easily 3x my size). I got in the car and left. I could have likely been arrested for threatening the guy, but I was young and really ticked off.

A second time I had a rather ugly experience with the law was coming home from work when I was on 2nd shift. An unmarked crusier pulled out in from of me and I had to swerve to miss him. He followed me on some backroads for awhile, then turned off. The about 5 miles down the road he came up on me doing at least 80 (in the fog no less) and I pulled over. He jumps out of the car, several other officers surround my car and he yells at me to get out. His hand is on his gun. I get out with me hands in my pockets (nervous) and he yells at me to get them out (not up, just out). At this point I am thinking either they are about to crack me in the head with a nightstick or take me to jail. He wants my license, and I was nervous and was fumbling all over for it (in my checkbook on the sunvisor is ultimately where it was). The other officers are asking him to calm down. I get up the nerve to ask him why I was pulled over and he states 'you were speeding'. I knew it was BS because my detector never went off. I asked how fast and he quickly changes the excuse to 'you've been drinking, and you almost hit me'. Wha? I tell him I just got off work, and remind him of the fact he pulled out in front of me. I find the license and he says 'you are supposed to be wearing corrective lenses.' I tell him i have contacts. He then pulls out is 15D cell mag light and shines it in my eyes, then says 'I don't see them'. I offer to remove them to show him. He switches gears again - he wants to search my car. At this point I am tired, pissed and fed up with his attitude. I tell him to get a warrant. One of the other officers politely takes me aside and tells me to just let him search the car and I can be on my way. I had nothing to hide, but it was the principle of the matter. I ended up letting him, and he found nothing. He ran my license, and found nothing then he was a sweet as iced tea. WTH? The other officers leave and I'm worried now because this guy was being really gruff with me about everything.

I should have reported the guy, but I didn't. At least in the end he was nice, whether it was sincere or not. Why he pulled me over I will never know, but I think it was mistaken identity (maybe my car matched some description).

I can sympathize with what you went through, and I hope the guy gets taught a lesson. I think some officers forget why they are out there patrolling.

general
05-09-2006, 12:17
if they had a good reason to hassle you then you would have been locked up for something. sounds like a random fact finding mission, same as when they have road block to check seat belt usage, and make 50 dui arrests. they were just checkin' you out to see if you would give yourself away for something.

John B
05-09-2006, 13:24
Just a thought, but has anyone considered cutting/pasting the substantive comments from this thread and mailing them to the mayor, chief of police, and, say, the president of the local Chamber of Commerce in Erwin?

From what I've read, local merchants have tried to upgrade or expand their services to capture more of the money that hikers spend, and I'd think that knowing that this type of incident is being discussed on a website visited by many hikers throughout America and Europe might catch their attention.

I know that hikers don't spend much money in towns, but still in small communities I'd think that there is a noticable uptick in spending during hiking season and that hotels, restaurants, etc. in small towns certainly appreciate the extra cash. So a word to the deputy from, say, a merchant would probably go further than you might think.

Anyway, that's my .02 worth.

generoll
05-09-2006, 14:31
good suggestion, JB. I just emailed the link to the Unicoi CC. Wonder if anyone will read it or respond.

icemanat95
05-09-2006, 16:52
My initial response was pretty straightforward: "*** was this blankety blank, donut-munching copling thinking? Papers? Why the heck should an American citizen need to have 'papers' to travel freely within the USA? Of course the social security number turned to universal ID is also profoundly insulting.

These issues aren't liberal or conservative, democratic or republican, they are authoritarian vs. libertarian. Like it or not government in the US is supposed to exist in subservience to the people, and the sort of behavior described above is in clear violation of the spirit this nation was founded in.

That said: it is smart to have basic ID on you at all times because the ideal and the reality pretty much never meet in reality. There will always be some dumb arse good-ol'boy sheriff or officer who is puffed up on his own authority and has lost track of his or her responsibilities. Knowing how to handle those situations without escalating them out of your control is a good skill to have. It almost always involves politeness and basic cooperation. Consenting to an illegal search is not a good thing though. The idea that "if you've got nothing to hide..." is bull. You may be compelled to knuckle under to this, but the principle is important. You as a citizen have a reasonable right to the privacy and security of your own person and possessions. You also have a right to know who anyone is who is questioning you. The old duffer who walked up should have either identified himself if a public official, or should have been told to push off by the officer. In the absence of either of these, Dirtnap had reason to believe he was being set up.

The last thing is that whether they should or not, people make judgements about other people based on cursory impressions of their physical appearance, smell, etc. You don't have to go out of your way to impress people, but if you want to be given a chance to make a good impression, you shouldn't dress to distress.

domnokmis
05-09-2006, 17:01
Yeah. Anarchy rules.:rolleyes:Well, anarchy is okay, but I get really enthused about apathy.

weary
05-09-2006, 17:07
Let's see. There was the time I was at the horse races with an uncle. I was 16 and underage for legal betting. But I played an occasional $2 ticket, figuring the guy at the mutual window could tell I was illegal if he wanted to. A deputy sheriff saw me, pulled me into his car and whacked me as hard as I've ever been hit when I reached for a hankerchief.

Then driving back to the University of Illinois, an old guy came out of a driveway and slammed into the rear fender of my 12-year-old '40 Buick. He and his agent were all apologies until the state trooper came by and arrested me for "driving too fast for conditions." He based his decision on 40 feet of skid marks on the tar "and a car going 35 miles an hour should stop in 25 feet." Totally false for anyone who knows 1940 tires and brakes -- especially since I had spent part of my week off from school doing car repairs and as a result my tires were well coated with oil. I fought the insurance company for months. They finally agreed to pay half the appriased value of the damage. I finally paid a $10 fine. The same fine paid by the old farmer when I appeared in court two days later.

Again, driving back to Illinois from Maine. A cop had a car pulled to the side of the road. I went by on new knob type snow tires, sounding loud and clear. The cop left his first arrest on the side of the road, did a U turn and stopped me. He claimed he had been following me "all the way from the border." A deliberate lie, since he had been heading in the opposite direction when he stopped the other car. And he seemed never to have noticed me stopping to pick up a hitch hiker. That one cost me $35 bucks, a lot of money in the 50s.

Of course there was also the time we were driving home from a Grange Hall dance in that same old Buick. I had replaced several front end parts and was checking the alignment by seeing if the car would drift when I released the steering wheel. It did. The blue lights flashed. I told the four people in back to carefully place their home brews on the floor -- that the cop couldn't search us without my permission.

No one followed my directions. Four beers flew out the window, splashing four pints of home brew on the hood of the cruiser.

I explained what I was doing. He smiled and let us drive off, though as I drove away I heard a plaintive voice yell, "Who's going to wash my car?"

Then once as that '40 Buick neared the end of its useful life, I needed to get to a meeting quickly and the '40 wouldn't start. So I switched the plates to a '51 Buick and drove away. Coming home three hours later blue lights came on again. I was only two blocks from home so I kept going, jumped out and headed for the front door. I heard a voice yelling "you were going 35 in a 25 zone." I yelled back, "Hi Eddie. Beautiful Night," as I headed inside. Neither he nor I mentioned the matter again.

Weary

Lone Wolf
05-09-2006, 20:29
We ain't heard the OTHER side. D

BooBoo
05-10-2006, 00:46
NEVER EVER consent to a search not matter the circumstances. Its too easy for pigs to plant thinngs on you. Also if a cops asks to talk to you, you can decline and say that you need to be on you way.

BooBoo
05-10-2006, 00:50
My comments about cop asking to talk to you refers to a pedestrian not a motorist.

Jack Tarlin
05-10-2006, 11:03
Gee, BooBoo, if they help your mom out on a deserted road in the middle of the night when her car breaks down, are they "pigs" then?

Or when they comfort a woman who's just been mugged, or deliver a baby in the back seat of a car, or help locate and save a missing child, or use their free time to work with disadvataged kids, are they "pigs" then?

And what about the dozens of law enforcement officers who gave their lives on 11 September 2001, BooBoo? Were those guys "pigs", too?

Honestly, some people at Whiteblaze should think a bit before hitting the "send" button.

Unless, of course, they enjoy looking like complete horse's asses.

LuTotten
05-10-2006, 11:43
Dirtnap, I can see you did some things right, some wrong. 1) you should always have your ID on you 2) every adult knows their social security # you should have instead told them you werent comfortable giving out that information (however not giving it out to a stranger is deffinetely best) 3) as far as they were concerned after those 2 points you were a liar and if your lying you have something to hide. Best to be honest with them if they are being a jacka**. I'm not calling you a liar, you just have to look at it from their view.

BooBoo I'm going to have to agree with Jack, there are bad policemen everywhere, but there are even more good ones. I have met my share of both. You wouldn't want people catorgorizing all hikers just b/c one or two have attitudes. I have met some very nice people on the trail, this spring I also met a few real jerks. Every group of people will have good and bad you can't judge them all on the actions of 1 or 2 people.

c.coyle
05-10-2006, 11:48
I read about a court case where it was decided that a citizen was not required to even give their name to any government represenative with out just cause. You sure don't have to furnish your social security number. I think I would have told him to stuff it; I would also probably be upstairs in the jail on a trumped up charge right about now. :rolleyes:

Since 2004, US citizens have had no constitutional right to refuse to identify themselves when requested by police who suspect a crime has been committed. The U.S. Supreme Court said so in a case called Hiibel, which upheld Nevada's "stop & identify" law. If I recall correctly, Hiibel did not get to whether you have to give other info such as D.O.B. and SS#.

TN_Hiker
05-10-2006, 12:03
He must not have known the true meaning of pig......

PIG = patience, integrity, and guts.

Granted there are a few officers who are a overzealous, but isn't that true with any group?

kyhipo
05-10-2006, 12:21
well cops most assuredly have a hard job at times,having been thru the grind because of my behavior in the past I can honestly say I have been stopped and asked for ID many times while hiking and have never had a problem responding while sober:eek:,the normal questions blah blah blah,ok sir see ya later,yes I will have a nice hike,and hiked on just get over man!life goes on!!be glad they didnt interigate you at headquarters.Just remember while hiking to remember to bring I.D. and expect anything,I was at a bar one night guy ask me how do you like my chicken wings,I say they taste like vineger and well next thing I know state trooper is escourting me out of town:-? .ky

Wonder
05-11-2006, 17:15
Dirtnap......I love you, and I'm with you....."nuff said.

chief
05-12-2006, 00:53
Since 2004, US citizens have had no constitutional right to refuse to identify themselves when requested by police who suspect a crime has been committed. The U.S. Supreme Court said so in a case called Hiibel, which upheld Nevada's "stop & identify" law. If I recall correctly, Hiibel did not get to whether you have to give other info such as D.O.B. and SS#.

Justice Kennedy's majority opinion noted, however, "[a]s we understand it, the statute does not require a suspect to give the officer a driver's license or any other document. Provided that the suspect either states his name or communicates it to the office by other means -- a choice, we assume, that the suspect may make -- the statute is satisfied and no violation occurs."

BooBoo
05-12-2006, 01:56
Gee, BooBoo, if they help your mom out on a deserted road in the middle of the night when her car breaks down, are they "pigs" then?

Or when they comfort a woman who's just been mugged, or deliver a baby in the back seat of a car, or help locate and save a missing child, or use their free time to work with disadvataged kids, are they "pigs" then?

And what about the dozens of law enforcement officers who gave their lives on 11 September 2001, BooBoo? Were those guys "pigs", too?

Honestly, some people at Whiteblaze should think a bit before hitting the "send" button.

Unless, of course, they enjoy looking like complete horse's asses.

Gee Jack if YOU had been illegally stopped, harressed and wrongfully arrested on trumped up charges for something that YOU did NOT do then YOU would be singing a similiar tune.

I can't come to Trail Days because I have to go to court on May 18th and shell out $1,000 in fines for something I didn't even do.

btw: I was arrested for DUI-D.(marijuana) I hadn't smoked in awhile but the UA come up positive and that was all the evidence they needed to convict me.

These cops where rude,arrogant jerks that made me stand outside in 10 degree temps so long that I was shivering and shaking uncontrollably. The also denied me my glucose tablets when my blood sugar bottomed out and I came close to passing out. (hypoglycemia sucks),

There are a few good cops Jack, but the majority of them are scum on a power trip. The cops around here are like a cross between Barney Fife and Roscoe P. Coltrane with a VERY bad attitude.

Remember folks, power corrupts.

BooBoo
05-12-2006, 02:02
If my last name had been Kennedy I would have gotten a ride home and a "Good Night Congressman" instead of a $1,000 fine.

papa john
05-12-2006, 07:28
Watch it, my last name is Kennedy and it has never gotten me any special treatment.

Sly
05-12-2006, 08:31
I can't come to Trail Days because I have to go to court on May 18th and shell out $1,000 in fines for something I didn't even do.

I'd be on the 1st bus out of Galena. They'd have to catch me agan before I forked over $1000.

Come to Trail Days Booboo...

MOWGLI
05-12-2006, 08:40
Watch it, my last name is Kennedy and it has never gotten me any special treatment.

Whaddya mean? I gave you that sweet camping spot at Gooch Gap in 2000. Doesn't that count for anything? ;)

stag3
05-12-2006, 09:09
btw: I was arrested for DUI-D.(marijuana) I hadn't smoked in awhile but the UA come up positive and that was all the evidence they needed to convict me.

.

Sounds like you're guilty.:D

Two Speed
05-12-2006, 09:20
Sounds like you're guilty.:DFrom a legal perspective, yes. From a logical standpoint, not so clear cut. Unfortunately the tests for marijuana test for metabolites that are shed long after the intoxication is over. The fact that someone turns up positive for marijuana metabolites is not proof they were under the influence of anything when the sample was taken; therefore the "driving under the influence" part is pure bull hockey IMHO.

Just Jeff
05-12-2006, 10:16
Whaaaa....I was breaking the law and got caught. The nerve of those pigs...

docllamacoy
05-12-2006, 10:50
Dirtnap! That sucks. I would have been steaming. Doc and I tended to get harrassed by cops all the time before he joined the Army. And there's no way in hell I would have given the cop my SS#, even though I know it.
I'm glad you were able to keep your cool through the whole thing. That's something I'm not very good at. Too bad you didn't have your old military ID on you to show him. Maybe he wouldn't have been such an ass.

neighbor dave
05-12-2006, 11:21
:-? it's not a drug, it's an herb!!:D

p.s. on a different note..... think i'll change my shirt today!!:jump

BooBoo
05-12-2006, 11:24
From a legal perspective, yes. From a logical standpoint, not so clear cut. Unfortunately the tests for marijuana test for metabolites that are shed long after the intoxication is over. The fact that someone turns up positive for marijuana metabolites is not proof they were under the influence of anything when the sample was taken; therefore the "driving under the influence" part is pure bull hockey IMHO.

Exactly...Unfortunately this is the Mid west and all they need is circumstantial evidence.

Sly I'm leaving this bassackwards area in Oct (hopefully sooner) and am heading up to Mass.

BooBoo
05-12-2006, 11:26
Alot of people would be SOL if they had the same legal standards for alcohol.

Lone Wolf
05-12-2006, 11:36
Exactly...Unfortunately this is the Mid west and all they need is circumstantial evidence.

Sly I'm leaving this bassackwards area in Oct (hopefully sooner) and am heading up to Mass.
Massachusetts? Now there's a ***d up state.

neighbor dave
05-12-2006, 11:45
Massachusetts? Now there's a ***d up state.

:-? it's not a state... it's a commonwealth!!!:jump


prolly not as bad as connecticut!!:D

neighbor dave
05-12-2006, 11:48
:-? lot's o' houses up fer sale down there. 30% bank forclosures stated in yesterdays bahstin glob!!:eek:

MOWGLI
05-12-2006, 11:48
Massachusetts? Now there's a ***d up state.


Yup, ever since Mitt Romney took office, the place has been a mess. :rolleyes:

It is actually one of my favorite states, but I prefer the coast to the mountains.

MOWGLI
05-12-2006, 11:53
... I'm leaving this bassackwards area in Oct (hopefully sooner) and am heading up to Mass.

You've got a pretty good shot of simultaneously lowering the collective IQ of both states with this relocation. ;)

Sly
05-12-2006, 12:41
Well being from Mass. I may be a little bias but I think it's a great state, and Boston, one of the best cities in America. Hub of the Universe, Shot Heard 'Round the World, Freedom Trail. Get it! :)

Footslogger
05-12-2006, 12:44
[quote=Sly]and Boston, one of the best cities in America.
=============================
...unless you hit the Sumner at rush hour !!

'Slogger

Sly
05-12-2006, 13:16
...unless you hit the Sumner at rush hour !!
You just have to know how to drive. No pussy footin around, just step on it! Or pull over into an air conditioned bar and have a few, til traffic dies down ;)

c.coyle
05-12-2006, 14:40
Well being from Mass. I may be a little bias but I think it's a great state, and Boston, one of the best cities in America. Hub of the Universe, Shot Heard 'Round the World, Freedom Trail. Get it! :)

The Shot Heard Round the World occured on October 3, 1951 at the Polo Grounds, which was in New York, the true Center of the Universe. You Red Sox fans are too much. ;)

papa john
05-12-2006, 18:26
sweet camping spot at Gooch Gap in 2000

You mean the one where I tried to burn up my pack with the alky stove?

mdionne
05-12-2006, 18:41
i understand you both feel a responsibility to keep hikers going to erwin (specifically, ms. janet's). i have not met dirtnap but for you to say that he deserves being targeted by locals or police because he doesn't look like a hiker is discriminating. go tell a muslim that they deserve to be targeted by police because they are muslim. go tell a mexican immigrant that we are trying to block the border because of fear of terrorism, when all the terrorists on 911 came in through canada. discrimination runs a lot deeper than just the color of skin doesn't it!?:(

Jack Tarlin
05-12-2006, 18:45
Geez, Coyle don't you know ANY history?

The Shot Heard Round the World goes back to 19 April 1775, and refers to a skirmish at Concord Bridge, just west of Boston. This event is considered the start of hostilities in the first War of American Independence. The phrase was probably first used by Emerson in his hymn/poem in honor of the events at Concord Bridge; I believe the date of the poem was 1837. In any case, the prase way pre-dated the Polo Grounds and anything to do with that village by the Hudson.

Geesh, you Yankee fans are too much!!

Jack Tarlin
05-12-2006, 18:54
MDionne--

Please don't put words in my mouth that I never said.

I NEVER said he deserved to be targeted or singled out. What I actually said, (and Dirtnap has essentially agreed with me) is that because of his appearance, it is inevitable that he attracts more attention in smaller towns.

And there's no need to bring politics or race into this discussion. When in town Dirtnap doesn't look like a hiker. He looks like a vagrant, OK? He also tends to neglect certain personal matters, and this also attracts unwanted attention.

If one looks like a bum, dresses like one, washes like one, well one is going to be mistaken for one. And this has nothing to do with bias, bigotry, or anything else.

Save the liberal guilt-ridden rant for another thread, God knows there are enouigh of them here to last til Christmas. People get judged by the their appearance, OK? It happens at job interviews; it happens when you're shopping in a store; it happens more often that you think.

And it happens in Trail towns, too.

Lastly, note to BooBoo. While I'm genuinely sorry you won't be at Trail Days, the fact remains that if you hadn't broken laws in the first place, you wouldn't be in legal trouble now. Sorry you haven't figured this out yet after 30-odd years on the planet, but the best way not to attract the attention of law enforcement personnel is to not break the law. People that don't want to get in trouble for using illegal recreational drugs can always stop using them, no?

mdionne
05-12-2006, 19:00
jack, i never put words in your mouth. i'm just perceiving your argument. and thank you for reaffirming my perception. labeling someone as a liberal isn't helping you either.:(

c.coyle
05-12-2006, 19:32
Geez, Coyle don't you know ANY history?

The Shot Heard Round the World goes back to 19 April 1775, and refers to a skirmish at Concord Bridge, just west of Boston. This event is considered the start of hostilities in the first War of American Independence. The phrase was probably first used by Emerson in his hymn/poem in honor of the events at Concord Bridge; I believe the date of the poem was 1837. In any case, the prase way pre-dated the Polo Grounds and anything to do with that village by the Hudson.

Geesh, you Yankee fans are too much!!

You're kidding, right? I refuse to believe that! The Polo Grounds are where the Continental Congress first met. I call Bulls**t on you, Jack Tarlin!

And by the way, I am a Pittsburgh Pirates fan. Pray for me.

weary
05-12-2006, 19:50
Geez, Coyle don't you know ANY history?

The Shot Heard Round the World goes back to 19 April 1775, and refers to a skirmish at Concord Bridge, just west of Boston. .....!!
Geez, BJ, don't you know anything. Concord Bridge may be "just west of Boston" today, but in 1776 it was a long wagon or horse back ride physically -- ask Paul. And by the 1850s it was a million miles intellectually from Boston.

Weary

Jack Tarlin
05-12-2006, 23:02
Actually, Weary, we're talking about the spring of '75, not 1776.

And in regards to "Paul", I'm assuming you;re referrring to Mr. Revere (1734-1818), who got a nifty poem outta the whole affair thanks to Longfellow, but as usual, the recorded story is nonsense.

Who's your American History teacher....Wookie, maybe?

Fact is, Revere, did nothing that night. He "warned" maybe five places, and then got bagged by a Britich patrol, most likely due to spending too mch time at too many roadhouses. He's been immortalized for doing nothing.

The "warning" that night that saved crucial ammunition dumps in Concord and Lexington was done by two other gentlemen, William Dawes and Samuel Prescott.

Nobody's ever heard of them, maybe cuz H.W. Longfellow never wrote a poem called "The Midnight Ride of William Dawes."

Dawes did OK and you can see his gravestone in King's Chapel burial ground ( I think Captain Kidd is there, too).

Prescott completely disappeared from history; I think he died in a British prison in Nova Scotia but you might have to check on that.

Anyway, Weary, I'll defer to you when talking about the events of the last quarter of the eighteenth century.

It's different for me..... after all, I wasn't there.

Regards.....J.T.

Downunda
05-12-2006, 23:26
This is what happened to John Rambo... and remember what the outcome was.

Jack Tarlin
05-12-2006, 23:35
The outcome was a whole lotta sh**ty Rambo movies, and now they're allegedly threatening to release Rocky XVI or whatever.

And your point was............?

tiamalle
05-13-2006, 00:51
Sounds like Barney Fife is loose in Erwin,,,, LOL!
Things get pretty boring in the winter time here in Franklin,If you aint got nothing better to do I'm always lookin for a few good deciples to harrass these local cops here with :banana :banana :banana

BooBoo
05-15-2006, 22:24
[quote=Jack Tarlin]MDionne--



Lastly, note to BooBoo. While I'm genuinely sorry you won't be at Trail Days, the fact remains that if you hadn't broken laws in the first place, you wouldn't be in legal trouble now. Sorry you haven't figured this out yet after 30-odd years on the planet, but the best way not to attract the attention of law enforcement personnel is to not break the law. People that don't want to get in trouble for using illegal recreational drugs can always stop using them, no?[/quote

Jack I was charged with DUI-D NOT possession or using. I smoked the day before this incident. Since I was NOT under the influence at the time I did not break the law against DUI-D. I had THC metabolites in my UA and that is all the evidence they need because they have no scientifically proven way of determining if someone is high. This is the equivalent of charging a driver with a DUI or DWI (alcohol) if they had a trace amount of alcohol in their system because they had drank the day before.

There's a HUGE meth infestation in this whole area so you'd think the cops would have better things to do with their time.

KirkMcquest
05-16-2006, 00:30
. i think that your social seciurity card even has a statement on it to the effect that it is not to be used as a form of i.d..

Newer social security cards no longer say that. I noticed your sixty, my fathers card also says 'not for identification purposes'. Strange that they would take the time and effort to eliminate that clause.:-?

KirkMcquest
05-16-2006, 00:37
Geez, Coyle don't you know ANY history?

The Shot Heard Round the World goes back to 19 April 1775, and refers to a skirmish at Concord Bridge, just west of Boston. This event is considered the start of hostilities in the first War of American Independence. The phrase was probably first used by Emerson in his hymn/poem in honor of the events at Concord Bridge; I believe the date of the poem was 1837. In any case, the prase way pre-dated the Polo Grounds and anything to do with that village by the Hudson.

Geesh, you Yankee fans are too much!!

Gosh, you know so much about everything Jack, will teach us more??

Yo-Yo
05-16-2006, 02:37
Footslogger: Yeah, It's dirtnap from '03.

Jack and Nean, I agree with your posts. I could certainly do more to attract less attention.

Bedouin: I disagree with every point of your analysis of a citizen's basic responsibilities, but I appreciate your opinion.

My father is a retired Michigan state cop. He taught me to cooperate with good cops, and to have disdain for bad cops who overstep their bounds, abuse their authority, or have no people skills. Being a good cop is all about dealing with people effectively and respectfully.

It's scary how many people are under the impression that one must carry his or her I.D. around at all times. A driver's license is for driving. If a cop is legitimately investigating a crime, you must cooperate. Having I.D. just makes a cop's job easier. Rather than help a bad cop, I feel civil disobedience is best. If he wants to violate my Constitutional rights, he's going to have to work for it and do his own investigation.

I don't drive anymore, so I've been thinking of getting rid of all I.D. anyway. If a cop feels like hauling me down to the station and holding me for 24 hours while confirming my identity I'm cool with that. Of course, I would consider a civil suit against all parties involved for false imprisonment and violating the rights of a protected class.

-dirtnap
sorry, but that is a stubid idea.
I do not drive never have drove a car as I am legally blind, BUT I do have a picture state ID
what are you going to do if your no the trail and fall over dead. No one will know who you are with out some kind of ID on you

Think you beter rethink that Idea of trashing all forms of ID

Yo - Yo

Two Speed
05-16-2006, 05:48
. . . what are you going to do if your no the trail and fall over dead. . . Well, with or without ID you'd still be dead. Still beats getting hit by a bus.

shades of blue
05-16-2006, 07:39
Actually, Weary, we're talking about the spring of '75, not 1776.

And in regards to "Paul", I'm assuming you;re referrring to Mr. Revere (1734-1818), who got a nifty poem outta the whole affair thanks to Longfellow, but as usual, the recorded story is nonsense.

Who's your American History teacher....Wookie, maybe?

Fact is, Revere, did nothing that night. He "warned" maybe five places, and then got bagged by a Britich patrol, most likely due to spending too mch time at too many roadhouses. He's been immortalized for doing nothing.

The "warning" that night that saved crucial ammunition dumps in Concord and Lexington was done by two other gentlemen, William Dawes and Samuel Prescott.

Nobody's ever heard of them, maybe cuz H.W. Longfellow never wrote a poem called "The Midnight Ride of William Dawes."

Dawes did OK and you can see his gravestone in King's Chapel burial ground ( I think Captain Kidd is there, too).

Prescott completely disappeared from history; I think he died in a British prison in Nova Scotia but you might have to check on that.

Anyway, Weary, I'll defer to you when talking about the events of the last quarter of the eighteenth century.

It's different for me..... after all, I wasn't there.

Regards.....J.T.

Not that this is a history thread but.....Mr. Revere designed and implemented the warning system that got the riders off. He warned Hancock and Sam Adams (who the British really wanted to hang) so they wouldn't be captured by the British. All three of those riders were captured, but the other two escaped. Mr. Revere also went back to get important papers for Hancock so it wouldn't be captured. So....I wouldn't say that Paul Revere did "nothing" that night. He also was involved in the Boston Tea Party and was a "son of liberty".
I agree that the others didn't get a fair shake because of the poem, and that Paul Revere was a composite of the other riders in the poem. However, you don't have to destroy one to lift the others up.

KirkMcquest
05-16-2006, 10:47
Not that this is a history thread but.....Mr. Revere designed and implemented the warning system that got the riders off. He warned Hancock and Sam Adams (who the British really wanted to hang) so they wouldn't be captured by the British. All three of those riders were captured, but the other two escaped. Mr. Revere also went back to get important papers for Hancock so it wouldn't be captured. So....I wouldn't say that Paul Revere did "nothing" that night. He also was involved in the Boston Tea Party and was a "son of liberty".
I agree that the others didn't get a fair shake because of the poem, and that Paul Revere was a composite of the other riders in the poem. However, you don't have to destroy one to lift the others up.

Sounds like Jack Tarlin needs a history lesson himself. You know the old saying, 'teachers never learn'?

weary
05-16-2006, 16:12
Actually, Weary, we're talking about the spring of '75, not 1776. .
Well, if you want to get technical. But i doubt if the bridge moved much between the spring of 1775 and 1776

bfitz
05-27-2006, 18:34
I used to have long hair and wear heavy metal t-shirts, and got harrassed by cops all the time. Since I got my hair buzzed, I haven't had a problem with a police officer. I just act like a marine or something and talk to them like my best buddy. They never want to look in my pockets anymore. They're just normal people, which means they can be as prejudiced and nasty as the average person, or not. Send a letter to the local newspaper...mabye they'll print it. Those kinds of publications sometimes have a vested interest in exposing such things...sometimes not. Stealth mode is the best way to avoid harrassment. I would have refused to let them search me BTW. Lucky you weren't holding....

"...clutching forks and knives to eat their bacon...."

mrc237
05-28-2006, 07:21
Interesting topic, but as a hiker and looking like a vagrant (when I'm hiking )I sometimes get the feeling what it must be like to be homeless and broke. And getting hasseled by the law goes along with the territory. Forget it get on with your hike/life.

Grampie
05-28-2006, 11:39
I too did have a chance to meet Dirtnap. My first impression was also that he was not a serious hiker. His appearance was surely not of a tipical thru-hiker.
As the saying goes; "If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it must be a duck."
Everyone has a right to dress in any manner they choose, but looking different can sometimes cause a proplem.
Happy trails to you, Dirtnap. Hike your own hike, you are an good example of that.:sun

Sly
05-28-2006, 12:03
I too did have a chance to meet Dirtnap. My first impression was also that he was not a serious hiker. His appearance was surely not of a tipical thru-hiker.
As the saying goes; "If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it must be a duck."
two questions...

1) what does a serious/typical thru-hiker look like?

2 ) what does dirtnap look like?

Chef2000
05-28-2006, 12:10
Every Year on Patriots day, as long as I can remeber, the ride of william dawes is reenacted along his original route, which happens to take him down Massachusetts Avenue in Cambridge MA. When I was a child he used to stop at bar for a drinks along the way. Out in Lexington/Concord, in Minuteman National park/area ther is a monument that marks the spot where Dawes dashed in to the woods after seeing Prescott arrested by the English ahead on the road.

neighbor dave
05-28-2006, 12:30
two questions...

1) what does a serious/typical thru-hiker look like?

2 ) what does dirtnap look like?
:-? sumptin like dis!!!:D

http://www.gasolinealleyantiques.com/images/Advertising%20Page/dakin-hobo.JPG

Lugnut
05-28-2006, 16:21
[QUOTE=Chef2000]Every Year on Patriots day, as long as I can remeber, the ride of william dawes is reenacted along his original route, which happens to take him down Massachusetts Avenue in Cambridge MA. When I was a child he used to stop at bar for a drinks along the way./QUOTE]

Just how old are you, anyway? :D

Lilred
05-28-2006, 16:38
Every Year on Patriots day, as long as I can remeber, the ride of william dawes is reenacted along his original route, which happens to take him down Massachusetts Avenue in Cambridge MA. When I was a child he used to stop at bar for a drinks along the way. Out in Lexington/Concord, in Minuteman National park/area ther is a monument that marks the spot where Dawes dashed in to the woods after seeing Prescott arrested by the English ahead on the road.

I'm sorry, but how does this tie into this thread? Am I missing something?

MOWGLI
05-28-2006, 19:07
I'm sorry, but how does this tie into this thread? Am I missing something?

Apparently you missed the history lecture earlier in the thread.

Chef2000
05-28-2006, 22:54
It does not, but usually by the fourth or fifth page of any thread, its gone way off topic.

uncas
05-29-2006, 00:48
What. No one mentioned anything about Johnathan Tremaine?

bfitz
05-31-2006, 20:06
two questions...

1) what does a serious/typical thru-hiker look like?

2 ) what does dirtnap look like?

1. A long haired bearded vagabond with a funky odor.

2. A long haired bearded vagabond with a funky odor, that walks like a duck...

Wonder
05-31-2006, 22:18
See, I would say he walks more like an octapus glides underwater......it really is a fantastic sight.....and FAST

camper10469
06-03-2006, 22:06
I've been harrased by many cops in the 60s n 70s and have learned the best medicine is to shut up or get your skull cracked. BUT!

Since when is a SS# considered ID? Mine clearly states on the front of the card "NOT TO BE USED AS ID"

Unless the Sherif is hiring the guy and needs the SS# for tax reasons, it's none of his business. Also not every one drives. Since when in America you must carry "papers?"

bearbait2k4
07-11-2006, 19:57
Fair question. I was following my wife in her car to the dealership when the black and white pulled in behind me and pulled me over.

My issue was not having my wallet, and if I was wrong I would have paid the fine if that was the case. The point that you missed was WHY was I pulled over. It was never told to me. I had my car title and insurance card so there was some id just not my drivers lic and that never was the issue.

I was detained and never told why. What was the reason for being pulled over??? Never given, the fact that I did not have my drivers lic is not part of the reason for being pulled over. The guys and gals of the Tampa Police Force are good but not that good to pull me over for not having my wallet on me.

Does that answer your question?

John

A cop has to have a reason to pull you over. How did the cop know he didn't have an ID before he requested it?

By and large, I've seen law enforcement taking more and more of our rights away from us on a regular basis. But, they only do this because we let them. The best thing you can do is to always know what rights and powers you have, when dealing with authorities, and ALWAYS exercise them.

The original poster had an unfortunate situation, and the cop acted inappropriately, in this situation described. First, there is no law that states a citizen of this country must have proper identification on themselves at all times, and there is no reason or right for the officer to have asked the guy for his social security number. The cop did have the authority to perform a search, if the report was legit, but that is where it should have ended.

If you really want to follow through with this, and have the offending officer names and badge numbers, there are a few things you can do. File a complaint. Like the other poster mentioned, it may not do anything but go on the cop's record, but if the cop repeatedly harrasses people in such a way, and all of them file complaints, there will be an investigation. You can also file a complaint with an organization like ACLU. Now - I am not advocating that group; I think they do a lot of screwed up things, but - they bring attention to problems and are a pain in the ass. If groups like that start digging into issues such as this, they'll straighten up their act.

Nothing ever comes easy. We have rights and freedoms, but they aren't just handed over with a bow on top. Sometimes it is necessary to stand your ground, so that yours aren't trampled over.

StarLyte
07-11-2006, 20:13
This is an unusual thread.

Any police officer can stop you anywhere in your vehicle and tell you that your tail light was shaking, ask you for ID and if you have none, will book you under "John or Jane Doe"
They can also hold you for 3 days investigation without charging you with anything.

Authority always wins. Unless you're wealthy.

Singe03
07-11-2006, 20:53
Just FYI, at least here and a few other states, they demand the SS# because it is used to check for dead beat dads...

saimyoji
07-12-2006, 02:01
This is an unusual thread.

Any police officer can stop you anywhere in your vehicle and tell you that your tail light was shaking, ask you for ID and if you have none, will book you under "John or Jane Doe"
They can also hold you for 3 days investigation without charging you with anything.

Authority always wins. Unless you're wealthy.

3 days?? This sounds like Bermuda, or wherever the Holloway girl disappeared, not the US of A. I believe the holding time depends on the suspicion, which must hold muster. A cop cannot stop you on a whim and hold you for 3 days, and certainly not on a minor traffic violation. Please cite a source for your assertion as I'm most interested in this disgusting practice, if true.

D'Artagnan
07-12-2006, 08:47
Since this baby's veering all over the place, let me ask a question that's been bothering me and see where it takes us:

Why did the court recently decide it was no longer necessary for police effecting a search warrant, knock on a door and announce their presence before entering a domicile forcibly?

Lone Wolf
07-12-2006, 08:49
Good way for LEOs to get killed.

bulldog49
07-12-2006, 12:13
And allow enough time to destroy evidence.

bearbait2k4
07-12-2006, 20:46
Since this baby's veering all over the place, let me ask a question that's been bothering me and see where it takes us:

Why did the court recently decide it was no longer necessary for police effecting a search warrant, knock on a door and announce their presence before entering a domicile forcibly?

That's simple, actually. There were too many cases of police doing just this thing, with negative consequences. There are thousands of cases on record where police, with or without a search warrant, burst in to a residence forcibly, without announcing themselves, that have ended with casualties among innocent victims. I am not speaking of criminals who reacted negatively to a barrage of armed individuals storming his or her house, but accounts of mistaken identity (wrong house, misdirection, false information) that have led to innocent people dying - not the police, mind you, but people who are completely uninvolved. Even children. Now, with that happening, and continuing to haphazardly take place throughout the country, do you think it would be easier for Law Enforcement to set out to correct the error, take responsibility for their negligence, and admit fault, or make a sweeping change that gives them the right and authority to do so, without having to accept responsibility for error?

It's common in law enforcement these days. Point out an error, and they're too arrogant and power-hungry to admit fault and correct it. Especially when they can save face and make their error procedure.

Moves like these really give a bad name and negative reputation to all the good law enforcement officer out there, but it will continue to happen.

jpepper
08-11-2006, 19:26
i would have taken off running just to see what would happen. to bad i wasnt there cause i would have left you a perfect window of escape............

FLHiker
08-11-2006, 20:58
Since you did not commit a crime, you had an obligation to only supply your name. A driver's licence or ID card is not required to walk down the street. At the first conversation, you could have asked Barnie "am I free to go?" That is an important question, as at that point he only has the right to hold you there if 1) you meet the requirements for arrest (high bar to meet), or 2) the officer has a reasonable suspicion that you have committed a crime (a so-called Terry Stop) this must be an articulable (able to put it in words - not "I had a feeling") suspicion and your holding may not excede an unreasonable time (most juristictions use 20 mins) before you are either arrested or let lose. So, since they had nothing - you should have been allowed to walk. - Your version of giving Barnie the finger!!!

I'm not a Libertarian - actually I'm a republican - but I am incensed by abuse of power by police (and I beleive that most are very good people, but the ones you remember are the power hungry ones- thats why I know this law!!!!)

ed bell
08-11-2006, 21:02
"am I free to go?" Never fail to ask this question when the going gets weird.

weary
08-11-2006, 21:17
Since this baby's veering all over the place, let me ask a question that's been bothering me and see where it takes us:

Why did the court recently decide it was no longer necessary for police effecting a search warrant, knock on a door and announce their presence before entering a domicile forcibly?
Because most recent Supreme Court appointments have been made by Republicans and some of the earlier appointees have lost the ability to think

FLHiker
08-11-2006, 21:21
Since this baby's veering all over the place, let me ask a question that's been bothering me and see where it takes us:

Why did the court recently decide it was no longer necessary for police effecting a search warrant, knock on a door and announce their presence before entering a domicile forcibly?

Because the police already have probable cause that a crime has been committed, as certified by a second branch of government (the court that issued the search warrent (remember, a search warrant can only be issued by a court)) and don't want to give the suspects the time to destroy evidence.

How the hell did we get so far away from the trail?????

Sorry for my part!!!!:D :D

Crazy Larry #1
08-12-2006, 19:58
anyone seen dirtnap, is he still heading north?

dirtnap
08-30-2006, 18:07
I had to get off the trail in July (in Waynesboro) to go to a memorial service for my older brother, who died last October. I was out of money, and I hate hiking in the heat, so I got a job doing roofing and siding.

I hope to go hiking again next spring, but I'm not making any plans.

-dirtnap

Skidsteer
08-30-2006, 18:15
I had to get off the trail in July (in Waynesboro) to go to a memorial service for my older brother, who died last October. I was out of money, and I hate hiking in the heat, so I got a job doing roofing and siding.

I hope to go hiking again next spring, but I'm not making any plans.

-dirtnap

You hate hiking in the heat and took a job roofing?

I don't like heights and I build cell phone towers. ;)


Seriously though, sorry about the loss of your brother.

Nean
08-30-2006, 23:04
You hate hiking in the heat and took a job roofing?

I don't like heights and I build cell phone towers. ;)


Seriously though, sorry about the loss of your brother.

Good luck dirtnap! Have a great year and make it out next year. Thats my hope as well.;) :)

Crazy Larry #1
08-31-2006, 09:18
yeah, i hate hiking in the heat too. fall, winter and spring are the best times on the trail for me.....

good to hear from you dirtnap. i'm still here in damascus........

REBELYELL
11-17-2006, 06:37
Maybe he was profiling.

Birddog
11-18-2006, 02:14
Hello Group:

When we were first married and living in Tampa, FL I was stopped by a black and white unit on my way to pick up my wife who was dropping her care off at the dealership for repair.

I had been doing yard work and had only my shorts on with no wallet on me. The police pulled me over on the side of the road, came to me asking for id and I had none, ran the plates on my car and made me stand outside my car in the afternoon sun for about 26 min. I asked two times why I was being detained from my travels and I was told both times by the officers to keep my mouth shut. I then waited and after about 20 more min I asked for the officers to again tell me why I was being detained and I was told to shut up and at that time I requested that the officers either call their shift supervisor, tell me why I was being detained or let me go or arrest me.

At this point the officers got ticked off and when I again requested that my rights were being infringed upon they told me to get in my car and leave and next time have id on me.

Now this is where I get upset with law enforcement. Just tell me why and I am ok with that. But you dont do this to people and not tell them the reason why. I never was told even when I called the next day and complained to the Tampa Police Department since I worked downtown for Price Waterhouse.

Now years later, my sisters-in-law got pulled over in Greenville, KY and they were put in the back of a cruiser and held for 30 min and then let go but they were told that they fit the description of two women who had robbed a store and they were wearing bandanas. They understood the reason and the officers treated them fine. To this day they do not wear bandanas and they have retired from teaching. In their case they have never felt that it was a problem just the police doing their jobs and they had the wrong persons.

This is my beef as I have said with law enforcement. I follow the law and I pay my taxes but I won't stand for this kind of treatment without a reason being given. This is still the United States of America and until someone lets me know that it has changed I will always demand for the officers to tell me why I am being detained.

Years ago my father who was a retired banker was pulled over on his way to visit his sister in Ohio. Mom and Dad had moved from Ohio and had moved to KY. When the officer started asking questions on why a car from KY was driving around town in the middle of the night my father told the officer that he was on his way to his sisters house and he wanted to know why he was being stopped. At this time the officer started slapping his flashlight in his hand and told my father that he would ask the questions. To my Dads credit, he told the officer that unless he intended to use it against a 66 years old man that he had better put the light up or Dad offered to put it somewhere on the officer where the sun did not shine. At this point the officer got cute and my father picked up his cell phone called his sister and told her to call the police chief who Dad had went to school with and played on the same football team. At this the officers backed off and when the call came from the chief they got in their car and drove away. Dad was pulled over for having KY plates on the car. No other reason, but he did get a sorry from the police chief.

It happens folks, and if you don't stand up for your rights and demand to be treated fairly by law enforcement then stories like this will continue.

John


In NC an officer is not required by law to immediately inform someone why they have been stopped or why they are being detained. However, I agree that it is good practice.

Also, it is a misdemeanor in NC to operate a motor vehicle without your license in your possession. You can go to jail for not carrying your license while driving, even if your license is valid. This is a law that protects you as a citizen. Suppose someone is stopped by the police and gives the officer your name and date of birth. The officer takes the person at their word and issues them a citation for the violation and sends the peron on their way.

A month later, that person doesnt show up for court and an order for arrest is issued for your arrest. You go to jail then for something you never did in the first place.

Sounds to me like the officer did you a favor by not taking you to jail or for not writing you a citation. While I was not there, it sounds like the officer could have probably used a little more tact and told you why he stopped you (again not required). Another tidbit, attitude goes a LOOOOONG way when speaking with the police. BD

Birddog
11-18-2006, 02:23
NEVER EVER consent to a search not matter the circumstances. Its too easy for pigs to plant thinngs on you. Also if a cops asks to talk to you, you can decline and say that you need to be on you way.

I guess I should change my trailname to Pig although Im kind of partial to Bird Dog.

Thats a great attitude for you to have BooBoo. BD

Birddog
11-18-2006, 02:27
I should have added that in addition to being a PIG, Im also a veteran, a husband, a father, a backpacker and a Christian. It saddens me to see that people define others by thier professions.

Seems to me that you are profiling by placing everyone with a common characteristic into one group. :-?

BD

Birddog
11-18-2006, 02:36
Hello Group:

When we were first married and living in Tampa, FL I was stopped by a black and white unit on my way to pick up my wife who was dropping her care off at the dealership for repair.

I had been doing yard work and had only my shorts on with no wallet on me. The police pulled me over on the side of the road, came to me asking for id and I had none, ran the plates on my car and made me stand outside my car in the afternoon sun for about 26 min. I asked two times why I was being detained from my travels and I was told both times by the officers to keep my mouth shut. I then waited and after about 20 more min I asked for the officers to again tell me why I was being detained and I was told to shut up and at that time I requested that the officers either call their shift supervisor, tell me why I was being detained or let me go or arrest me.

At this point the officers got ticked off and when I again requested that my rights were being infringed upon they told me to get in my car and leave and next time have id on me.

Now this is where I get upset with law enforcement. Just tell me why and I am ok with that. But you dont do this to people and not tell them the reason why. I never was told even when I called the next day and complained to the Tampa Police Department since I worked downtown for Price Waterhouse.

Now years later, my sisters-in-law got pulled over in Greenville, KY and they were put in the back of a cruiser and held for 30 min and then let go but they were told that they fit the description of two women who had robbed a store and they were wearing bandanas. They understood the reason and the officers treated them fine. To this day they do not wear bandanas and they have retired from teaching. In their case they have never felt that it was a problem just the police doing their jobs and they had the wrong persons.

This is my beef as I have said with law enforcement. I follow the law and I pay my taxes but I won't stand for this kind of treatment without a reason being given. This is still the United States of America and until someone lets me know that it has changed I will always demand for the officers to tell me why I am being detained.

Years ago my father who was a retired banker was pulled over on his way to visit his sister in Ohio. Mom and Dad had moved from Ohio and had moved to KY. When the officer started asking questions on why a car from KY was driving around town in the middle of the night my father told the officer that he was on his way to his sisters house and he wanted to know why he was being stopped. At this time the officer started slapping his flashlight in his hand and told my father that he would ask the questions. To my Dads credit, he told the officer that unless he intended to use it against a 66 years old man that he had better put the light up or Dad offered to put it somewhere on the officer where the sun did not shine. At this point the officer got cute and my father picked up his cell phone called his sister and told her to call the police chief who Dad had went to school with and played on the same football team. At this the officers backed off and when the call came from the chief they got in their car and drove away. Dad was pulled over for having KY plates on the car. No other reason, but he did get a sorry from the police chief.

It happens folks, and if you don't stand up for your rights and demand to be treated fairly by law enforcement then stories like this will continue.

John

I think we should all stand up for our rights and demand that bankers be honest and provide people with a fair deal each time they deal with banks. I mean, if every officer in the country is the same, isnt every banker the same? How about Army recruiters? They are all liars arent they? Mine lied to me, but I still gave eight years of faithful service to my country. What if not another young person joined the military, Colnel, because they hear that all recruiters are liars? What if no one stopped for the police or obeyed the laws because they thought all police officers were "Pigs" as BooBoo so eloquently put it.

When someone breaks into your home, you have an accident, or a plane flys into a building, who do you call? Not a banker. Usually it is the police. Im glad to see you have so much respect for people who die to keep you safe at home.

BD

Gaiter
11-18-2006, 11:58
I was pulled over here in Winston-Salem once, because my 'headlights were weird'. The officer walks up to my car, i have my id and registration ready. I ask why i was pulled over, he said 'your head lights are weird', i asked him 'do they still look weird' he said no, i realized that my fog lights were on so i turned those off and asked him if they looked better that way. he was obviously a young cop and you could just see his confidence melting away as i spoke to him. i asked him if that was all that he pulled me over for, he said yes, and just stood there like he was thinking of his next question, then i asked him if he was done. he said yes nodded his head and hurried back to his car, never even checked my id or registration.

peter_pan
11-18-2006, 12:59
God Bless America.... and those who defend us at home and abroad... Land of the free, within the bounds of the Constitution and Bill of Rights....

Seems like time to go hike.

Pan

sherrill
11-18-2006, 16:11
Thickred's story reminds me of a story my wife shared. She was leaving Ziggy's after watching us play one Saturday night. Our second car had a loose connection on the driver side light, so the officer pulled her for having a light out. She just tapped on the hood, the light came back on, and the officer let her be on her way.

sherrill
11-18-2006, 16:12
Ziggy's is in WS, btw. I need to up my donation so I can edit my posts again.:)

bfitz
11-19-2006, 00:50
I was pulled over here in Winston-Salem once, because my 'headlights were weird'. The officer walks up to my car, i have my id and registration ready. I ask why i was pulled over, he said 'your head lights are weird', i asked him 'do they still look weird' he said no, i realized that my fog lights were on so i turned those off and asked him if they looked better that way. he was obviously a young cop and you could just see his confidence melting away as i spoke to him. i asked him if that was all that he pulled me over for, he said yes, and just stood there like he was thinking of his next question, then i asked him if he was done. he said yes nodded his head and hurried back to his car, never even checked my id or registration.

Maybe he was stoned.

Gaiter
11-19-2006, 01:12
Maybe he was stoned.

maybe, but i would have noticed that smell

Nean
11-19-2006, 01:31
In NC an officer is not required by law to immediately inform someone why they have been stopped or why they are being detained. However, I agree that it is good practice.

Also, it is a misdemeanor in NC to operate a motor vehicle without your license in your possession. You can go to jail for not carrying your license while driving, even if your license is valid. This is a law that protects you as a citizen. Suppose someone is stopped by the police and gives the officer your name and date of birth. The officer takes the person at their word and issues them a citation for the violation and sends the peron on their way.

A month later, that person doesnt show up for court and an order for arrest is issued for your arrest. You go to jail then for something you never did in the first place.

Sounds to me like the officer did you a favor by not taking you to jail or for not writing you a citation. While I was not there, it sounds like the officer could have probably used a little more tact and told you why he stopped you (again not required). Another tidbit, attitude goes a LOOOOONG way when speaking with the police. BD

One little detail seems to be overlooked. Dirtnap was WALKING.:eek:


Don't be too upset w/ booboo Bd. I'm sure he was refering to the rare bad cop..... and not all the good cops like you.;) :)

Wonder
11-19-2006, 16:57
I used to get pulled over all of the time simply for driving an old car with lots of bumper stickers......they could never get me on anything though. (they allow "safety checks" around here) It became my game to see if I was going to eventually get pointlessly pulled over by every cop in the town by the time I moved. I think that I was short by 2

DavidNH
11-19-2006, 17:40
You should write a book! This sounds like the makings of a really funny novel on small AT trail towns!

David

little bear
11-20-2006, 03:31
This for all of you who refer to Law Enforcement Officers as PIGS. Think about it next time before you attempt to insult us.
Little Bear
AKA: Sergeant B E Davies NC LEO



A cop died today, and some still call him Pig.
He died trying to help others escape from a stricken building, yet some still call him Pig.
He did his job, giving the ultimate sacrifice, and for what? Money? Respect? Power? Prestige?
No, he did it because he was needed, and some still call him Pig.
All over this great Country, Police Officers are called upon to perform duties no one else wants to do.
They enforce traffic laws, only to pick up the bodies of those who violate them.
They are called upon to be family counselors, and are cursed and sometimes injured by those who called them for help.
They see battered and abused children, and are told not to let it bother them.
They see the worst our society has to offer, and are asked to go home to a normal life after their shift.
A cop died today, and 78 of his brother officers died with him, yet some still call him Pig.
Soon, in another city, in another state, others will don the uniform and badge for the first time.
They will go forward with high expectations to Serve and Protect.
They will be called upon to do what every other cop has done before them, yet some will call them pigs.
A cop died today, and a small piece of America died with him, yet some still call him Pig.

By
Bob Fraser

Nean
11-20-2006, 10:48
This for all of you who refer to Law Enforcement Officers as PIGS. Think about it next time before you attempt to insult us.

Little Bear
AKA: Sergeant B E Davies NC LEO



A cop died today, and some still call him Pig.
He died trying to help others escape from a stricken building, yet some still call him Pig.
He did his job, giving the ultimate sacrifice, and for what? Money? Respect? Power? Prestige?
No, he did it because he was needed, and some still call him Pig.
All over this great Country, Police Officers are called upon to perform duties no one else wants to do.
They enforce traffic laws, only to pick up the bodies of those who violate them.
They are called upon to be family counselors, and are cursed and sometimes injured by those who called them for help.
They see battered and abused children, and are told not to let it bother them.
They see the worst our society has to offer, and are asked to go home to a normal life after their shift.
A cop died today, and 78 of his brother officers died with him, yet some still call him Pig.
Soon, in another city, in another state, others will don the uniform and badge for the first time.
They will go forward with high expectations to Serve and Protect.
They will be called upon to do what every other cop has done before them, yet some will call them pigs.
A cop died today, and a small piece of America died with him, yet some still call him Pig.

By

Bob Fraser


And there are no bad cops because of this poem?:confused:
I'd figured you guys would be a little less sensitive. A young man with a bad experience calls someone a name and you guys get all emotional.:eek: Why do you care what BooBoo says? :-?
To quote another young man that took his own advice recently on another thread concerning personal predjudice, "Relax buddy".... and thank you for being a good cop.:sun

The Weasel
11-20-2006, 12:52
And there are no bad cops because of this poem?:confused:
I'd figured you guys would be a little less sensitive. A young man with a bad experience calls someone a name and you guys get all emotional.:eek: Why do you care what BooBoo says? :-?
To quote another young man that took his own advice recently on another thread concerning personal predjudice, "Relax buddy".... and thank you for being a good cop.:sun
Nean, I don't get all weepy about bad poetry like this, but he has a point: If I have a bad experience from one black person, that doesn't give me the right to call him - or all blacks - the 'n' word. The same for people of other religions or races or, for that matter, professions. Police make mistakes. Some of those mistakes are horrible ones. Some police do things they shouldn't - and know they shouldn't - and some of those things are truly horrible. But, with over 200,000 sworn officers in the USA, the percentage of negligent and intentional wrongs by officers is small, and while repugnant to anyone, doesn't entitle us to call them names, even the ones who have acted wrongly.

And there IS a difference. Law enforcement officials know there is a percentage chance they will be injured or even killed intentionally as a part of their jobs. So they feel a 'lack of respect' even more deeply than many of the rest of us for our jobs.

I understand your feelings about someone with power and a badge abusing both. But I don't think that justifies painful namecalling.

BOTH of you 'mellow out' a little.

The Weasel

Two Speed
11-20-2006, 13:14
. . . doesn't entitle us to call them names, even the ones who have acted wrongly. . . The WeaselUh, citizens who get caught acting wrongly are called "criminals" aren't they, and sometimes worse? I'll bite that many LEO's do their job out of a sense of duty, but one who abuses their authority will always be a pig in my book.

BTW, LEO's aren't the only folks who take a risk on dying on the job. Take a look at Confined Space (http://spewingforth.blogspot.com/) if you don't believe me.

The Weasel
11-20-2006, 13:37
Uh, citizens who get caught acting wrongly are called "criminals" aren't they, and sometimes worse? I'll bite that many LEO's do their job out of a sense of duty, but one who abuses their authority will always be a pig in my book.

BTW, LEO's aren't the only folks who take a risk on dying on the job. Take a look at Confined Space (http://spewingforth.blogspot.com/) if you don't believe me.

Well, Two, calling someone a "criminal" isn't, in my book, the same as calling someone an 'epithet,' whether job related or anything else. By the way: Police officers who use epithets can and are (and should be) disciplined for doing so.

As for risks of death, there are a lot of high risk jobs. But law enforcement is amont the few in which the worker knows there is a discrete percentage of people who will hurt or kill them intentionally. And they still punch in for that job. That's a big difference.

The Weasel

Nean
11-20-2006, 13:46
Some good points.
Off the top of my head though, stereotypying, racism, bad. Calling a spade a spade- no problem. If a good man is so sensitive he's offended that a bad man is called a name however, I'm not so sure I understand why?:confused: Consider the source; and do you really think he thinks every cop is a pig? I agree it would be better to call them asshats though.:D

Two Speed
11-20-2006, 13:47
Well, Two, calling someone a "criminal" isn't, in my book, the same as calling someone an 'epithet,' whether job related or anything else. By the way: Police officers who use epithets can and are (and should be) disciplined for doing so. Not sure I'm following you there, but that ain't no big deal. I think we can agree that calling all LEO's pigs is in poor taste, to put it mildly.
As for risks of death, there are a lot of high risk jobs. But law enforcement is amont the few in which the worker knows there is a discrete percentage of people who will hurt or kill them intentionally. And they still punch in for that job. That's a big difference.

The WeaselSpeaking as someone who has been there, I can tell you ALL electrons will attempt to kill electric utility workers any time they get the chance. At the end of the day there are LOTS of people who take that chance and punch in every day. If you're arguing for a little respect for the LEO who's doing his best to do a good job all you're gonna get from me is an "Amen, brother." Just don't forget that we, as a society, depend on garbage men, sewer workers, linemen, heck, a boat load of folks to support the way of life we enjoy.

The Weasel
11-20-2006, 13:55
Not sure I'm following you there, but that ain't no big deal. I think we can agree that calling all LEO's pigs is in poor taste, to put it mildly.Speaking as someone who has been there, I can tell you ALL electrons will attempt to kill electric utility workers any time they get the chance. At the end of the day there are LOTS of people who take that chance and punch in every day. If you're arguing for a little respect for the LEO who's doing his best to do a good job all you're gonna get from me is an "Amen, brother." Just don't forget that we, as a society, depend on garbage men, sewer workers, linemen, heck, a boat load of folks to support the way of life we enjoy.

Two, I'm glad we agree: All work is worthy of respect, if done honestly and fairly, and undeserving of disparagement. And calling police - or anyone else - names for who they are is bad form; we agree.

But for all that, and for all those who go to work knowing it's dangerous, I admire the police more than most: They, unlike almost any other profession, know that there are other people they will see and meet who will try to hurt them, consciously and willingly, not for what they have done or said, but simply because of who they are. It takes courage to put on that uniform each day knowing that, and despite those who tarnish badges, I respect the courage it takes to put it on.

The Weasel

The Weasel

Two Speed
11-20-2006, 14:00
Who you choose to admire is between you and your conscience; no problem there. I do have a huge problem with the abuse of authority, though. "nuff said, and I've got to get something done today, and you could be in the same boat.

Happy Trails.

bfitz
11-20-2006, 14:23
I've had a lot of bad experiences with pigs. And I have some good friends who are good cops. And I've been treated respectfully and even kindly by some excellent police officers in the field. I think even good cops are so offended by bad cops that they have even stronger terms than "pig" to describe them.

And the term pig doesn't refer to just police. All who abuse their authority to treat others unjustly or humiliate or demean or exploit are pigs. And deserve the name.

Just Jeff
11-20-2006, 14:38
In Orwell's Animal Farm, the pigs are politicians who abuse their power.

bfitz
11-20-2006, 14:40
All pigs are created equal, some are just more equal than others.

Alligator
11-20-2006, 14:41
.
.

little bear
11-20-2006, 18:51
I agree that there are bad cops out there and they are the one that give Police Officers a bad name. I am an Internal Affairs Investigatior for my Department as well as a supervisior so I am tasked with training new officers and training them the correct way to deal with the public, as well as investigate officers who violate policies and laws. I do not cover up nor condone behavior that is not to the high standards that I was trained to nor the standards that I train new officers to.

BooBoo
11-21-2006, 02:06
I should have added that in addition to being a PIG, Im also a veteran, a husband, a father, a backpacker and a Christian. It saddens me to see that people define others by thier professions.

Seems to me that you are profiling by placing everyone with a common characteristic into one group. :-?

BD

There are police officers and then there are pigs. If YOU had been pulled over for no other reason than for having out of state plates and had been forced to stand in 10 degree weather for close to an hour and not allowed to put on your jacket and denied your glucose tablets(I'm hypoglycemic) despite allmost blacking out from hypoglycemia and were wrongfully arrested for something you didn't even do then perhaps you'd have a a bit of a negative view of LEO's as well. I politely stood up for my Fourth Amendment Rights and got arrested on a trumped up charge so they could rifle through my private property. BTW: They didn't find a damn thing because I wasn't breaking the law. I ALLWAYS stand up for my rights and the rights of others no matter what the circumstances or the consequences which in my case was $2000 in fines,SATOP, lawyers fee's etc.... The situtation was pure and simple extortion.

The pig that arrested me is the chief in his town and is very well HATED by the locals. Numerous locals have told me about his appparent inability to control his temper. The Chief in my town is very well liked because he's a fair, courteous, professional unlike the rude, arrogant, jackass that arrested me.

I've known some really cool LEO's in my time but they seem to be the exception and not the rule.

Nightwalker
11-22-2006, 16:00
I've known some really cool LEO's in my time but they seem to be the exception and not the rule.

Well, since most of us have the exact opposite experience, maybe you should look in the mirror. Too hard?

Jack Tarlin
11-22-2006, 16:40
BooBoo says "There are police officers and there are pigs."

Sorry, I ain't buying it.

He sounds like comedian Michael Richards explaining his recent comments:

"Um, gee whiz, I was misinterpreted. I didn't really mean what I said. I'm not a bigot. What I meant to say was there are black people and then there are......."

Well, I'm sure you can fill in the rest.

BooBoo, as in any profession, there are excellent Police Officers, satisfactory ones, mediocre ones, and a few bad ones.

But to describe them the way you did was a really ugly thing to say.

If you think good officers are the exception and not the rule, then you simply haven't met enough cops. Or maybe, you've met them under lousy circumstances like the well-known incident where you got into a fistfight with another hiker in a public parking lot in Charles Town WV, or when you were DUI'd and discovered to have illegal drugs in your system while driving.

Gee, maybe if you'd met police officers in other circumstances than this, you might have a higher opinion of them, and they of you.

It was said on another thread, but it's worth repeating: The simplest way to avoid unpleasant encounters with law officers is to avoid breaking the law. The simplest way to antagonize those who represent law and order is to display to them that you have no respect for either law or order.

* * * *

And if anyone thinks I'm being a little rough on BooBoo, well all I gotta ay is one of my best friends is a Police Officer in a major American city. It is a very tough and very dangerous job.

The other cop I know the best is about to return to his second tour in Afghanistan, where he'll be helping to train the National Police.

Two other local officers that I know have served in Iraq and Afghanistan and one of them may be going back.

None of these men are pigs, and neither are any of their colleagues.

The Weasel
11-22-2006, 17:37
BooBoo, as in any profession, there are excellent Police Officers, satisfactory ones, mediocre ones, and a few bad ones.

But to describe them the way you did was a really ugly thing to say.

If you think good officers are the exception and not the rule, then you simply haven't met enough cops.

OK, people. Those with weak hearts read no further....

I AGREE WITH EVERY DAMN THING JACK SAYS IN THIS POST. BOOBOO (AND THE REST OF YOU WHO CALL COPS NAMES) ARE JUST FLAT OUT WRONG AND SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF THEMSELVES.

I'm told that typing all in caps is the equivalent of shouting.

The Weasel

bfitz
11-24-2006, 16:08
Jack, I've encountered planty of cops. I'm firends with several. I've been helped enormously by some. I've also on different occasions been robbed, denied my insulin or adequate medical care (my blood sugar was over 500 by the time I was released, after almost 24 hours of begging and pleading for medical assistance...there were over 20 different cops who could have been the "good cop" that night but didn't), stalked and falsely arrested twice by the same officer within one week (I beat those charges on appeal...only a verbal reprimand from the judge for the officer who didn't follow "procedure"), illegally detained, rudely searched etc etc. I have a personal friend beaten and released without shoes far out of town. In fact, I believe there is a culture of indifference to people's rights within law enforcement, (a personal friend of mine who is a police officer even giggled when I confronted him on his stated practice of walking a police dog around truck stops without probable cause) and this is a far greater problem than your post and many people acknowledge. Your few bad apples seems in my experience to be about 30%. Sometimes one bad apple tolerated by peers can bring down the whole group. That may be the case here, but whatever the reason, these problems are underacknowledged. Again, I have even more respect for the 70 % who go far over in the other direction to truly protect and serve for this reason. I just wish more would be more intolerant of the acts of the other 30% and flush them out.

Crazy Larry #1
11-24-2006, 16:58
Since I was a man who was in prison on a few occasions, I can truly say that anytime I recieved harsh treatment was when I was being pretty harsh myself. If I am breaking the law and I get caugt I am caught. I will always go out of my way to treat that officer with respect because it is him or she who are in charge and there are more than a few of their friends lurking somewhere in the background. Furthermore anytime I have ever been arrested for breaking the law it was obvious at the time that I was indeed breaking the law.

Are there bad cops? Sure there are. When I was dealing in drugs I had one or two on my payroll so to speak. Would these same cops arrest someone falsely or whoop up on somebody occasionally? Probably.

They are out there, but on the whole IMHO most officers of the law are there to do a job that needs to be done without too much hassle along the way. And most treat you like they would want you to treat them.

Does that mean that since I have the opinion that I have of them that I am going to buddy, buddy with them? No, probably not too much. They got their side of the line and I got mine.

Crazy Larry #1
11-24-2006, 17:14
Furthermore, if I had ever became a cop I would have been one the dirtiest cops there ever were BooBoo and you would not have wanted to meet me buddy.................

bfitz
11-24-2006, 18:12
Well, some of the kindest, most trustworthy and caring people I know have sold drugs, and some of the most petty nasty folks I've ever encountered have been cops. The world is full of contradictions. One bad never justifies another.

bfitz
11-24-2006, 18:13
Well, some of the kindest, most trustworthy and caring people I know have sold drugs, and some of the most petty nasty folks I've ever encountered have been cops.
I should have said "...and vice versa...".

BooBoo
11-30-2006, 15:55
BooBoo says "There are police officers and there are pigs."

Sorry, I ain't buying it.

He sounds like comedian Michael Richards explaining his recent comments:

"Um, gee whiz, I was misinterpreted. I didn't really mean what I said. I'm not a bigot. What I meant to say was there are black people and then there are......."

Well, I'm sure you can fill in the rest.

BooBoo, as in any profession, there are excellent Police Officers, satisfactory ones, mediocre ones, and a few bad ones.

But to describe them the way you did was a really ugly thing to say.

If you think good officers are the exception and not the rule, then you simply haven't met enough cops. Or maybe, you've met them under lousy circumstances like the well-known incident where you got into a fistfight with another hiker in a public parking lot in Charles Town WV, or when you were DUI'd and discovered to have illegal drugs in your system while driving.

Gee, maybe if you'd met police officers in other circumstances than this, you might have a higher opinion of them, and they of you.

It was said on another thread, but it's worth repeating: The simplest way to avoid unpleasant encounters with law officers is to avoid breaking the law. The simplest way to antagonize those who represent law and order is to display to them that you have no respect for either law or order.

* * * *

And if anyone thinks I'm being a little rough on BooBoo, well all I gotta ay is one of my best friends is a Police Officer in a major American city. It is a very tough and very dangerous job.

The other cop I know the best is about to return to his second tour in Afghanistan, where he'll be helping to train the National Police.

Two other local officers that I know have served in Iraq and Afghanistan and one of them may be going back.

None of these men are pigs, and neither are any of their colleagues.

Lets set the record straight Jack. I was attacked in the parking lot by a hiker that has a criminal record for assault. All I did was take defensive measures ie pressure points etc but I NEVER hit him back.... You make it sound like I started the fight which I didn't do. The Officer that handled my case was the epitome of a courteous professional LEO. A retired LEO staying at the AYH Hostel encouraged me to press charges and even checked up on me later to make sure I was allright and that I had followed through with pressing charges. These gentlemen and the cop that pulled me over last Friday are the epitome of what a good LEO should be.

As for the DUI.... I was giving a friend a much needed ride so he could get paid for some work he had just done. I was obeying all traffic laws and minding my own business when we passed a cop going the other way. They flipped a U and pulled in behind us. We were both polite and courteous and I excercised my Fourth Ammendment rights when I politely declined a search of my vehicle. I was wearing patchouli oil so the cop claimed he smelled marijuana smoke. The real reason they arrested me was because I stood up for my rights and they knew that could have a free hand to search my vehicle if they arrested me. Search result? THEY FOUND NOTHING!!!! The fact is Jack I wasn't breaking any law at the time yet I still got arrested and by The Chief no less. That's what really gets me.

Over the last 5 months I've had the the great thrill of standing in the fine payers line at the courthouse. I've had many locals tell me about the Chiefs bad reputation as well as his inability to control his temper.He's an example of a pig while they guys Jack describe sound like good LEO's.

BooBoo
11-30-2006, 15:59
BooBoo says "There are police officers and there are pigs."

Sorry, I ain't buying it.

He sounds like comedian Michael Richards explaining his recent comments:

"Um, gee whiz, I was misinterpreted. I didn't really mean what I said. I'm not a bigot. What I meant to say was there are black people and then there are......."

Well, I'm sure you can fill in the rest.

BooBoo, as in any profession, there are excellent Police Officers, satisfactory ones, mediocre ones, and a few bad ones.

But to describe them the way you did was a really ugly thing to say.

If you think good officers are the exception and not the rule, then you simply haven't met enough cops. Or maybe, you've met them under lousy circumstances like the well-known incident where you got into a fistfight with another hiker in a public parking lot in Charles Town WV, or when you were DUI'd and discovered to have illegal drugs in your system while driving.

Gee, maybe if you'd met police officers in other circumstances than this, you might have a higher opinion of them, and they of you.

It was said on another thread, but it's worth repeating: The simplest way to avoid unpleasant encounters with law officers is to avoid breaking the law. The simplest way to antagonize those who represent law and order is to display to them that you have no respect for either law or order.

* * * *

And if anyone thinks I'm being a little rough on BooBoo, well all I gotta ay is one of my best friends is a Police Officer in a major American city. It is a very tough and very dangerous job.

The other cop I know the best is about to return to his second tour in Afghanistan, where he'll be helping to train the National Police.

Two other local officers that I know have served in Iraq and Afghanistan and one of them may be going back.

None of these men are pigs, and neither are any of their colleagues.

I "got into a fistfight with another hiker in a public parking lot in Charlestown WV." You make it soudn like I was the perp.

Lets set the record straight Jack. I was attacked in the parking lot by a hiker that has a criminal record for assault. All I did was take defensive measures ie pressure points etc but I NEVER hit him back.... You make it sound like I started the fight which I didn't do. The Officer that handled my case was the epitome of a courteous professional LEO. A retired LEO staying at the AYH Hostel encouraged me to press charges and even checked up on me later to make sure I was allright and that I had followed through with pressing charges. These gentlemen and the cop that pulled me over last Friday are the epitome of what a good LEO should be.

As for the DUI.... I was giving a friend a much needed ride so he could get paid for some work he had just done. I was obeying all traffic laws and minding my own business when we passed a cop going the other way. They flipped a U and pulled in behind us. We were both polite and courteous and I excercised my Fourth Ammendment rights when I politely declined a search of my vehicle. I was wearing patchouli oil so the cop claimed he smelled marijuana smoke. The real reason they arrested me was because I stood up for my rights and they knew that could have a free hand to search my vehicle if they arrested me. Search result? THEY FOUND NOTHING!!!! The fact is Jack I wasn't breaking any law at the time yet I still got arrested and by The Chief no less. That's what really gets me.

Over the last 5 months I've had the the great thrill of standing in the fine payers line at the courthouse. I've had many locals tell me about the Chiefs bad reputation as well as his inability to control his temper.He's an example of a pig while they guys Jack describe sound like good LEO's.

Lone Wolf
11-30-2006, 16:32
In the future take a bath and don't wear that stinky-ass patchouli oil. And get those hippy stickers off your car. You fit a profile.:)

Jack Tarlin
11-30-2006, 16:37
Re-read my comments, Boo.

All I'm saying is most folks your age......or even my age.....haven't had that many encounters with the Police, and certainly not so many negative ones.

Maybe there's a reason you've had all these encounters, and maybe the reason isn't necessaruly the guys in blue.

"Qui s'excuse s'accuse."

P.S. If you weren't guilty of breaking any laws, please explain why you were DUI'd and what you were charged with; I thought you'd made it clear previously that you were arrested for something illegal. If I'm mistaken, please clarify.

BooBoo
11-30-2006, 18:53
Re-read my comments, Boo.

All I'm saying is most folks your age......or even my age.....haven't had that many encounters with the Police, and certainly not so many negative ones.

Maybe there's a reason you've had all these encounters, and maybe the reason isn't necessaruly the guys in blue.

"Qui s'excuse s'accuse."

P.S. If you weren't guilty of breaking any laws, please explain why you were DUI'd and what you were charged with; I thought you'd made it clear previously that you were arrested for something illegal. If I'm mistaken, please clarify.

I was charged w/ Driving in a Drugged condition aka DUI-D or Driving Under the Influence-Drugs and also faulty equipment(cracked windshield) and faliure to use turn signal(the reason for the stop) even though it was a fork and use of a turn signal was not required under MO Traffic Law thererby making it an illegal stop.

I was working at a coffeeshop at this time period so I was under the influence of caffiene and NOTHING else.

It wasn't until I excercised my Fourth Ammendment Rights and politely declined them permission to search my vehicle did that they claimed to smell marijuana and ordered me to take a sobriety test. I passed but I was shaking from low blood sugar(even showed 'em my glucose tablets I had in my pocket) and shivering from the cold but the Chief said I had failed so they hauled me off then I was forced to submit a urine sample.

The urine sample came back positive for THC metabolites which is all the State needs for a conviction. The DA offered a plea deal in which I got whats called an SIS(suspended imposition sentence in which the charge stays off my record and I keep my license) which meant I had to do Victim Impact Panel,SATOP (Substance Abuse Offenders Program) I got 2 years unsupervised probation, and a $525 fine for the cracked windshield and 60 HOURS of community service. All told they got soaked me for close to $1300

I was courteous and respectful but they didn't have the decency to show me the same treatment. I basically got arrested for standing up for my rights.

btw: The ususal defective equipment fine is only $150. The fine in MO for cannabis possesion is $525. Seems a bit odd huh? The whole thing amounted to a shakedown.

I've only had 3 negative interactionsw/ LEO's but I have had more than a few positive interactions w/ them.

It seems that Cops are either really cool professional acting LEO's or total jack*sses. The cop that stopped me over in Gainesville MO last Fri was a true courteous pro.

LW: I quit wearing patchouli oil and I drive a white stationwagon w/ two AT stickers and a Free Leonard Peltier sticker.

Just Jeff
11-30-2006, 19:14
So you had a cracked windshield and didn't use your turn signal, which are both infractions, but you were obeying all traffic laws?

And you had drugs in your system?

Don't see where the misunderstanding is.

Jack Tarlin
11-30-2006, 19:20
Lemme make sure I've got the facts straight...

You tested possible for THC.

Where did that come from, eh?

You also acknowledge there were safety violations in re. to your vehicle, and that you were making an illegal turn?

Leave out anything?

Sorry to bust your chops on this, Boo, but it's been said already: The best way to avoid unpleasantness with law-enforcement offialdom is to NOT break the law.

You neither maintained nor drove your vehicle in a safe and legal manner, thus providing the officers with an excuse to pull you over and bring you in. You also had narcotics in your system thus providing them with an excuse to arrest you.

Yet you seem to think that THEY were responsible for all your difficulties.

Sorry, but I ain't buying it.

If you're gonna drive a car that needs repairs; if you're gonna ignore traffic laws; and most of all, if you're willingly going to ingest narcotics and still have them in your system when you're driving, I sorry, but I can't help but feel that most of the responsibility for your trouble here is yours.

Jack Tarlin
11-30-2006, 19:20
It appears that Jeff beat me to it.

Just Jeff
11-30-2006, 19:25
Naw - he's had so many more, and more unpleasant, experiences w/ "pigs" than any of the rest of us b/c they just have it out for him. Much more likely explanation than any direct connection between his behavior and its consequences.

[that dripping sound is sarcasm]

Sly
11-30-2006, 20:45
and most of all, if you're willingly going to ingest narcotics and still have them in your system when you're driving, I sorry, but I can't help but feel that most of the responsibility for your trouble here is yours.

I've heard THC lingers in the fat cells for up to 6 weeks or so, while effects wear off in a few hours. So although legally culpable, it's a slippery slope.

The Weasel
11-30-2006, 22:46
One of the things people don't realize is that good policing - getting the "bad guys" off the street - uses traffic stops as a highly effective investigative tool: Police can (and the law definitely permits it) make traffic stops for very "minor" infractions, and use the opportunity for a (legal) 'protective search' of people, and perform field sobriety checks while they run the driver license through the LEIN computer to see if there are any "wants" or warrants out on that person. This is not profiling, but a tool that catches a tremendous number of people who are doing something more serious than "soft stops" through stop signs, but then people like Boo complain "I wasn't doing much." That's not the point: You were doing something, and the police were able to find out the rest because of it. (Stops like this increase in number with the lateness of the hour, to nail alcohol offenses, too, even if there isn't any erratic driving.)

So one of the keys to avoiding stops - and all the rest of the potential hassle - is to make no mistakes in your driving, and to have a car that has no equipment violations. If you're a hiker, particularly in a strange town, the same thing: Don't do anything in public that is even slightly inappropriate, and dress as neatly as possible. Otherwise - and I've seen it happen - you will get stopped for jaywalking outside the lines by a foot, and, well....

I'm sorry Boo. You brought it on yourself. You could just as easily have been someone on parole, carrying an illegal weapon, ducking a warrant for spousal abuse, or something serious. The police are there to cut crime, and they are learning that traffic stops work. (By the way, police know traffic stops are incredibly dangerous: That parolee with the guy knows he's going to be "violated" (no, not that way...charged with parole violation) and he doesn't want to go back to Elmira. So he may well draw on the cop. Boo, you didn't risk getting shot in that stop. The cop did.)

The Weasel

rickb
11-30-2006, 23:16
According to this, driving a truck or being an outside sales rep is a more dangeous profession than being a police officer:

http://johnsville.blogspot.com/2005/01/dangerous-professions.html

Who knows, just food for thought. Police have a tough job and a whole lot of responsiblity.

But I am not sure if it is such a good idea to condone the actions of police who take any steps to bring a person who they "know" to be a criminal to account by the creative means Boo Boo describes.

When that becomes accepted (because it works) innocent people do pay a price, and a lot more can feel disinfranchised-- and you get verdicts like in the OJ Case.

Lone Wolf
12-01-2006, 00:09
I was charged w/ Driving in a Drugged condition aka DUI-D or Driving Under the Influence-Drugs and also faulty equipment(cracked windshield) and faliure to use turn signal(the reason for the stop) even though it was a fork and use of a turn signal was not required under MO Traffic Law thererby making it an illegal stop.

I was working at a coffeeshop at this time period so I was under the influence of caffiene and NOTHING else.

It wasn't until I excercised my Fourth Ammendment Rights and politely declined them permission to search my vehicle did that they claimed to smell marijuana and ordered me to take a sobriety test. I passed but I was shaking from low blood sugar(even showed 'em my glucose tablets I had in my pocket) and shivering from the cold but the Chief said I had failed so they hauled me off then I was forced to submit a urine sample.

The urine sample came back positive for THC metabolites which is all the State needs for a conviction. The DA offered a plea deal in which I got whats called an SIS(suspended imposition sentence in which the charge stays off my record and I keep my license) which meant I had to do Victim Impact Panel,SATOP (Substance Abuse Offenders Program) I got 2 years unsupervised probation, and a $525 fine for the cracked windshield and 60 HOURS of community service. All told they got soaked me for close to $1300

I was courteous and respectful but they didn't have the decency to show me the same treatment. I basically got arrested for standing up for my rights.

btw: The ususal defective equipment fine is only $150. The fine in MO for cannabis possesion is $525. Seems a bit odd huh? The whole thing amounted to a shakedown.

I've only had 3 negative interactionsw/ LEO's but I have had more than a few positive interactions w/ them.

It seems that Cops are either really cool professional acting LEO's or total jack*sses. The cop that stopped me over in Gainesville MO last Fri was a true courteous pro.

LW: I quit wearing patchouli oil and I drive a white stationwagon w/ two AT stickers and a Free Leonard Peltier sticker.

Lenny Peltier? An Englishman? Why?

Bravo
12-01-2006, 00:32
Lenny Peltier? An Englishman? Why?

I think he's Native but I'm not sure.

BooBoo
12-01-2006, 02:24
Leonard Peltier was the leader of AIM (American Indian Movement) do a google or Yahoo search and you'll learn more than I have the time to explain.

Let me clarify a few things. The road bore off to the right so the law did not require the use of a turn signal. They couldn't see the crack because of the position of the sun and direction they were heading. My passenger did say that they looked directly at us when we went by them. My passenger has long hair and a beard and I had my goatee and we were both dressed in work clothes.

The found THC metabolites in my UA.(thatsTHC metabolites Jack not THC) All that proves is that I partook at least once in the last 30 days although I had not partaken in anything that day. The thing is that this cop couldn't tell the difference between patchouli oil and pot smoke and this is the local Police Chief not some rookie!!!!

btw Jack: Marijuana is not a narcotic since it is part of the cannabis sativa (or cannabis indica) plant and is not derived from opiate producing poppies.

The law did not require the use of a turn signal therefore the traffic stop was illegal and the evidence from the stop was gathered illegally and therefore inadmissable.Try telling that to a small town Bible Belt judge. I took the plea deal on the advice of my lawyer and because I knew I couldn't get a fair trail. Unlike alcohol there is no way to scientifically prove marijuana intoxication.In these cases its the officers word against yours.

I've only had three negative interactions with LEO's but have had far more positive interactions than negative interactions but Just Jeff seems to have missed that point entirely.

I no longer wear patchouli oil except and use my turn signal even when I'm taking a sharp curve.

The police Chief in my town is a great guy but the other Police Chief in question has the reputation for beating people up and even threw one guy through a windshield. He seems like someone that went into Law Enforcement for the wrong reasons. Its quite easy to percieve that the locals don't like this guy at all. The majority of the Cops I've interacted with have been pretty cool but this guy is a real jack*ss.

The Deputy that pulled me over in Gainsville MO Fri. evening was really cool. I hadn't recieved my current insurance card yet but he didn't tow my car or even write me a ticket.Last spring a Galena cop went out of his way to give me a ride when my work van broke down and even called the dispatcher and had him call my boss. Shoot I even got a hitch to Gatlingurg from a Park Ranger.

Heater
12-01-2006, 02:57
In the future take a bath and don't wear that stinky-ass patchouli oil. And get those hippy stickers off your car. You fit a profile.:)

There should be a law against wearing that patchouli crap.

Sly
12-01-2006, 09:57
Yeah what with patchouli anyway? Is it considered an aphrodisiac, cologne for hippies?

Sly
12-01-2006, 10:01
from wikipedia...

Patchouli oil and incense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incense) underwent a surge in popularity in the 1960s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960s) and 1970s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970s), mostly among devotees of the free love (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_love) and hippie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippie) lifestyles, due in part to the fact that the pungent smell of patchouli is known to cover the smell of burnt cannabis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis).

Ooops.. busted!

BooBoo
12-01-2006, 10:06
There should be a law against wearing that patchouli crap.


Apparently there is!:p

Crazy Larry #1
12-01-2006, 10:54
I've had a lot of bad experiences with pigs. And I have some good friends who are good cops. And I've been treated respectfully and even kindly by some excellent police officers in the field. I think even good cops are so offended by bad cops that they have even stronger terms than "pig" to describe them.

And the term pig doesn't refer to just police. All who abuse their authority to treat others unjustly or humiliate or demean or exploit are pigs. And deserve the name.
Good points. But with the way BooBoo illustrated it and how it came across was that all LEO's are pigs. That is a bunch of junk.

I'll tell you why he thinks the way he does is because he most likely wants to do things that are against the law and he wants to do them blatantly like smoking his pot and so forth.

You know from most police officers I have had the chance to meet, some on the other side of the fence too, they don't have a problem with those who use drugs, drink alcohol or who do criminal things but they do have a problem with those who use drugs, drink alcohol blantantly or who do criminal things by getting out here on the highways and in the public view and flaunting it and being a general a**hole about it and so forth for those who have any sort of criminal activitie on their mind.

The way I see it is-there is a line between them and I. If I cross into their path then I will meet them on their terms. As long as I stay in my own backyard so to speak I usually will not have any problems from them unless I might have a friend who just thinks that bug I just squashed was toatally an unlawful act and therefore he/she is going to go and snitch on me because they need to clear their own record for something that the law has busted them for.

Crazy Larry #1
12-01-2006, 11:03
Lemme make sure I've got the facts straight...

You tested possible for THC.

Where did that come from, eh?

You also acknowledge there were safety violations in re. to your vehicle, and that you were making an illegal turn?

Leave out anything?

Sorry to bust your chops on this, Boo, but it's been said already: The best way to avoid unpleasantness with law-enforcement offialdom is to NOT break the law.

You neither maintained nor drove your vehicle in a safe and legal manner, thus providing the officers with an excuse to pull you over and bring you in. You also had narcotics in your system thus providing them with an excuse to arrest you.

Yet you seem to think that THEY were responsible for all your difficulties.

Sorry, but I ain't buying it.

If you're gonna drive a car that needs repairs; if you're gonna ignore traffic laws; and most of all, if you're willingly going to ingest narcotics and still have them in your system when you're driving, I sorry, but I can't help but feel that most of the responsibility for your trouble here is yours.

I agree 100%!

BooBoo
12-01-2006, 12:37
Well Wanderer I wasn't smoking blatantly or otherwise and I wasn't under the influence. They didn't pull me over for a cracked windshield but for failure to use a turn signal where a turn signal was not required by law.

There's a double standard here. They don't arrest and prosecute people for DUI if they have a trace amount of alcohol in their system from getting drunk a few nights before but they will arrest and prosecute ya if you have trace amounts of THC metabolites in your system. There's more than a few people on here that would be SOL if they applied the same standard to alcohol use.

I know I am innocent my friend riding w/ me knows I'm innocent and God knows I'm innocent. Karma will come back to get him just like it did to a certain hiker wannnbe that used my face for a punching bag.

I used to despise that jerk that arrested me but now I feel pity. I pity him because he is a small minded jack*ss thats despised by the people he's supposed to serve. I pity him because he's gonna be stuck in a crappy little back water town the rest of his life and will never truly experience what life has to offer. I pity him becasue he thinks that its more important to harass me than to go after real criminals like the meth cook down the road or the pedophile that molested his neighbors kid. I pity him because he will never know the satisfaction that comes from doing the right thing and not just the "legal" thing.

I pity him and anyone(including a few folks on here) that can't or won't think outside the box.

Wanderer if you had bothered to throughly read my next to last post you would see that I don't think all cops are pigs.

The Weasel
12-01-2006, 14:32
Well Wanderer I wasn't smoking blatantly or otherwise and I wasn't under the influence. There's a double standard here. They don't arrest and prosecute people for DUI if they have a trace amount of alcohol in their system from getting drunk a few nights before but they will arrest and prosecute ya if you have trace amounts of THC metabolites in your system.

Boo, "I wasn't smoking blatantly" is sort of a "little bit pregnant" comment. Smoking nonblatantly is a crime in the US. I think it's a dumb crime, but it's also stupid that it's a crime in CA and a lot of places to jaywalk. But until that law is changed, I cross at corners. I suggest you take your stash and flush it down the toilet until the feds give up on marijuana. Don't complain until that happens.


I know I am innocent my friend riding w/ me knows I'm innocent and God knows I'm innocent. Yes, but they don't count. The local judge trumps God, at least so far as the LEIN network is concerned. If you weren't guilty, you shouldn't have pleaded guilty. That's why there are juries. Or are they prejudiced, too?


I pity him becasue he thinks that its more important to harass me than to go after real criminals like the meth cook down the road or the pedophile that molested his neighbors kid.

And have you reported either of them?


I pity him because he will never know the satisfaction that comes from doing the right thing and not just the "legal" thing.

Feel all the pity you want, and do the "right thing" all you want. But it would also be smart to do "the legal thing" too. And cheaper.

The Weasel

[/quote]

BooBoo
12-01-2006, 14:59
I wasn't arrested for smoking or possesing. I was arrested for DUI-D. I hadn't smoked in awhile but was still arrested despite the fact I wasn't under the influence of ANYTHING!!! The main reason that I was arrested was that I politely refused to waive my Fourth Ammendment rights.

I guess what really gets me is that I was arrested and punished for something that I didn't even do. If I had been rightfully arrested for someting I actually did I wouldn't be reacting the the way I am.

This is a small Bible Belt town. Even if the judge had allowed a jury trial it wouldn't even had the semblance of a fair trail.

The Weasel
12-01-2006, 17:50
This is a small Bible Belt town. Even if the judge had allowed a jury trial it wouldn't even had the semblance of a fair trail.

Boo, I learned a lot along the AT, from GA up into VA. And one of the things I learned is that some towns just aren't for me, even for a few hours. And that goes for at least one irritating police stop when I was hitchhiking.

What I think isn't working for you here - or perhaps in life - is the fact that your posts have this very passive/aggressive aspect to them. You call the police "pigs" here, and say a lot of other hostile things, yet tell a story that makes everything sound as if, for some reason, one night the police decided, for no reason at all, to cause you a whole world of pain, only because you declined a search 'politely'. You talk about how people in town hate this one officer, yet you're afraid of a jury of the same people. You admit to using marijuana, yet you're angry at the police. I'm not sure what the 'truth' is, nor is anyone else here, I think, possibly not even you. (Thank you, Mr. Kurosawa.)

But I think you have some serious issues, and I think rather than calling police "pigs" - here or anywhere else - and viewing yourself totally as a victim of police, judges, juries-that-never-sat-in-Bible-Belt-towns, and a lot else, I think you need to consider seeing a counselor that can help you realize that you may be headed in some very dangerous directions.

I hope you do, and I hope it's helpful.

The Weasel

Bravo
12-01-2006, 17:57
Yeah BooBoo. Get some therapy. Then you can fall in line like a good little soldier. HaHa.

"Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly."-Dali Lama

BooBoo
12-01-2006, 19:54
Yeah BooBoo. Get some therapy. Then you can fall in line like a good little soldier. HaHa.

"Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly."-Dali Lama

Oh yeah therapy. heres after therapy

Left,
Left,
Left,Right left. Am I doing this right? Or do I need to straighten out my leg a bit more so I can do a proper Goosestep? I want to make sure I can Goosetep propoerly and fall in line like all the other automatons.:p

Say Weasel has anyone ever mentioned your amazing ability to twist other people's words?

Of the many lessons I learned in life and on my '98 GA-ME hike was to stand up for myself no matter what the cost.

Nightwalker
12-02-2006, 01:19
Oh yeah therapy. heres after therapy

Left,
Left,
Left,Right left. Am I doing this right? Or do I need to straighten out my leg a bit more so I can do a proper Goosestep? I want to make sure I can Goosetep propoerly and fall in line like all the other automatons.:p

Don't be lame. I've been arrested for possession twice; once for more than an ounce. I was friendly and respectful to the cops and they were the same to me.

How I see it is that I am free to break the law if I'm willing to pay the consequences. And when those consequences start happening, I need not whine about it.

And since I disagree with you on this, I'm probably just a sheeple little old hippie goose stepper myself, right?

BooBoo
12-02-2006, 08:38
Don't be lame. I've been arrested for possession twice; once for more than an ounce. I was friendly and respectful to the cops and they were the same to me.

How I see it is that I am free to break the law if I'm willing to pay the consequences. And when those consequences start happening, I need not whine about it.

And since I disagree with you on this, I'm probably just a sheeple little old hippie goose stepper myself, right?

I was friendly and courteous the other times I was arrested. I was friendly and courteous to these guys but the Chief was not. I think my refusal of an illegal search was the main reason he got mad since bullies don't like it when you stand up to them.

I didn't commit the crime I was charged with and prosecuted for but yet I had to sufffer the consequences as if I was actually guilty so I have every right to be up in arms about it.

The whole goosestep comment was about Bravo's joke about getting therapy so I can be brainwashed and become a good little automaton.

Lone Wolf
12-02-2006, 09:01
Sounds like you had a sh**ty lawyer then.

StarLyte
12-02-2006, 09:18
The whole goosestep comment was about Bravo's joke about getting therapy so I can be brainwashed and become a good little automaton.


...yes you're right Boo Boo, and then just become part of the mainstream hypocrisy..........yuck

Crazy Larry #1
12-02-2006, 09:28
Well Wanderer I wasn't smoking blatantly or otherwise and I wasn't under the influence. They didn't pull me over for a cracked windshield but for failure to use a turn signal where a turn signal was not required by law.

There's a double standard here. They don't arrest and prosecute people for DUI if they have a trace amount of alcohol in their system from getting drunk a few nights before but they will arrest and prosecute ya if you have trace amounts of THC metabolites in your system. There's more than a few people on here that would be SOL if they applied the same standard to alcohol use.

I know I am innocent my friend riding w/ me knows I'm innocent and God knows I'm innocent. Karma will come back to get him just like it did to a certain hiker wannnbe that used my face for a punching bag.

I used to despise that jerk that arrested me but now I feel pity. I pity him because he is a small minded jack*ss thats despised by the people he's supposed to serve. I pity him because he's gonna be stuck in a crappy little back water town the rest of his life and will never truly experience what life has to offer. I pity him becasue he thinks that its more important to harass me than to go after real criminals like the meth cook down the road or the pedophile that molested his neighbors kid. I pity him because he will never know the satisfaction that comes from doing the right thing and not just the "legal" thing.

I pity him and anyone(including a few folks on here) that can't or won't think outside the box.

Wanderer if you had bothered to throughly read my next to last post you would see that I don't think all cops are pigs.

On any thread that I take interest in I usually pick up where I left off when I get a chance to get back on the computer, which is the case here and later I saw what you wrote and perhaps I should have commented on it. So be it, the fact remains that you came across like all LEO's were "pigs" when you first began commenting on this.

You cannot get mad at the whole bunch because one officer of the law spanked your butt and you didn't like it. Look at your own actions in this and quit pitying that guy and practice some of your God given belief of forgiveness if you truly feel that you had been trespassed upon. I know who you believe in, or at least who say you believe in, so practice what He taught and forgive the man, take your punishment like a man and move on BooBoo. And don't only forgive the man but also ask God to bless him.

But for the love of a good cup of java, do not come on here and make yourself look the fool in this case.

Crazy Larry #1
12-02-2006, 09:34
I wasn't arrested for smoking or possesing. I was arrested for DUI-D. I hadn't smoked in awhile but was still arrested despite the fact I wasn't under the influence of ANYTHING!!! The main reason that I was arrested was that I politely refused to waive my Fourth Ammendment rights.

I guess what really gets me is that I was arrested and punished for something that I didn't even do. If I had been rightfully arrested for someting I actually did I wouldn't be reacting the the way I am.

This is a small Bible Belt town. Even if the judge had allowed a jury trial it wouldn't even had the semblance of a fair trail.
I'll tell you what BooBoo, it was so minor that it would have never made it to a jury trial if you had have stuck to your guns and not taken the plea deal. That's how them prsecutors get you, that's their job. They are not going to take some traffic stop unless it is totally serious and go through a jury trial with it and cost the taxpayers a bunch of money that is only going to net you a small sentence "IF" you are found guilty. Most likely it would get thrown completely out.

Crazy Larry #1
12-02-2006, 09:37
Of the many lessons I learned in life and on my '98 GA-ME hike was to stand up for myself no matter what the cost.
Well you sure didn't do that by taking a plea deal.............:rolleyes:

rickb
12-02-2006, 10:13
The main reason that I was arrested was that I politely refused to waive my Fourth Ammendment rights.

My guess is that a bumper sticker supporting a guy who very well known (at least among people my age) for killing a couple law enforcement officers might have also played a role. Who knows?

Police officers know that simply by subjecting a person to the consequences of an arrest, you will pay a heavy price in terms of both time and money.

Doesn't make it right, though. You were screwed.

Lone Wolf
12-02-2006, 10:16
Yup. Certain bumper stickers will get you profiled really quick.

Sly
12-02-2006, 10:34
My guess is that a bumper sticker supporting a guy who very well known (at least among people my age) for killing a couple law enforcement officers might have also played a role. Who knows?


You know he did the shootings? Facts say otherwise....

http://www.freepeltier.org/peltier_faq.htm

Lone Wolf
12-02-2006, 10:36
You know he did the shootings? Facts say otherwise....

http://www.freepeltier.org/peltier_faq.htm

What an unbiased website that is. Facts my azz.:rolleyes:

rickb
12-02-2006, 10:39
Sly, I most certainly don't know whether or not Peltier did anything.

Not to be a weasel, but I said that he was "well known" for killing the two.

I am not suggesting in any way whether or not those supporting Peltier's cause ar in the right-- only that such a bumper sticker may have played a roll in what happened.

Sly
12-02-2006, 10:43
Yeah, I'm sure the bumper sticker didn't help BooBoo's cause.

BooBoo
12-02-2006, 11:30
My guess is that a bumper sticker supporting a guy who very well known (at least among people my age) for killing a couple law enforcement officers might have also played a role. Who knows?

Police officers know that simply by subjecting a person to the consequences of an arrest, you will pay a heavy price in terms of both time and money.

Doesn't make it right, though. You were screwed.

Thank you.

Yes I could have fought it and considering the local judge I probably would have lost and had my license taken away and have a DUI conviction on my record.The Chief lied in his report so who's to say he wouldn't lie on the witness stand? It was posssible but highly improbable that I could have gotten the whole thing tossed. In the end the plea deal cost me less $ than fighting it would have ie a trial and the subsequent appeals etc...

Wanderer I was refering to standing up for my Fourth Ammendment rights so perhaps I should have clarified that.

Leonard Peltier was wrongfully convicted but that's besides the point. There's lots of Native Americans around here so alot of folks are sympathetic to Native Causes. The Chief is only a few years older than me so I don't know if he would know who Leonard Peltier is. One of the times I got stopped(a positive interaction btw) one of the guys asked me who Leonard Peltier is then again this he looked pretty young. I did see a Native American with a bumpersticker that read "My hero's have allways killed cowboys"!

LW I don't have any Grateful Dead or Phish stickers on my vehicle for precisely the reason you mentioned.I grew up in Arkansas so I know that having those kinda bumperstickers in the Midwest or South is an invitation to trouble.

I did have Dead stickers on my car when I lived in VT/NY and never had any problems w/ police harrasment but I'd chalk that up to regional differences in LEO's attitudes toward civil rights.I've lived in twelve different states throughout my life and it seems that LEO's outside the Midwest and the South are far more professional and have a greater respect for civil rights than their counterparts in the South and Midwest.

When comes down to it, most LEO's are just guys doing their job that don't let their power go to their heads. Unfortunately I got stopped by a LEO that has obviously let the power go to his head.

To sum things up...... Most cops are good people but some truly are pigs. Some of us have had negative interactions with the bad type of cops that have let their power go to their head.I had the misfortune of getting stopped by one of those type of cops and ended up getting screwed. Then again there alot more people that have gotten screwed far worse than I have.

I move that we let this thread die. any seconds?

Lone Wolf
12-02-2006, 11:33
I love seconds! That's why frequent buffets.

BooBoo
12-02-2006, 11:38
I love seconds! That's why frequent buffets.

mmmmm. Buffets.......

LW seconded, any other votes?

Sly
12-02-2006, 12:13
Nah, I don't like when they closed threads. Sorry, something about the 1st Amendment.

Sly
12-02-2006, 12:14
OMG, I'm over 4,000 posts! OK, I'll shut up now. :o

Skidsteer
12-02-2006, 12:37
Kludos Sly!

Sly
12-02-2006, 12:42
LOL... thanks Skids. Looking at your daily average you'll be here in no time! Pre-Kludos! to you! :D

Worm
12-02-2006, 13:58
Hi gang. Allow me to establish my providince. I have been a policeman for the past twenty-seven years. I am a retired West Virginia State Police Sergeant, and currently ply my trade at a two-man town police department, in Peterstown, West Virginia (the town overlooked from the Rice Field Shelter on the AT north of Pearisburg, VA). I believe I can offer a counter perspective to this discussion (even if good sense dictates I stay out of it). I offer no judgements here. There are certainly really bad policemen, just as there are really bad doctors, mechanics, sales clerks, and yes, hikers.

From my perspective the story related in the origin of this thread can be catagorized as a typical, indeed routine call that all policemen receive. A Shoplifting complaint. Now realize that regardless of your feelings on the subject, each and every state of the union has uniquely differing laws in regard to crime and its investigation. Likewise each County or City/Town may have it's own set of ordanence that govern. Regardless of where you hale from, when in Rome (or in this case Erwin), you are subject to her laws. And so any discussion of this incident must be filtered in the light of what is legitimate and lawfull in Erwin. Since I know absolutly nothing concerning the prevailing law, I could not say if the Sheriff acted correctly. But I can make a few suggestions to you when dealing with the police, wherever you may find yourself.

The United States Supream Court has upheld the right of the police to temporarily detain a person for a reasonable length of time, in order to investigate a crime. They did not specify what that reasonable amount of time was. In the header of this thread our friend the hiker has been stopped for reasonable suspicion of committing a crime, "Shoplifting." Any officer's first duty is to identify the person to whom he is speaking. As was pointed out later in the thread, you do not have to provide the police with any information at all if you choose not to. This is so, but please realize that this will just delay the process and increase the reasonableness of your detention. It is also not advisable to intentionally give the officer false information, as the hike appears to have done in the original thread when asked for ID. (I'm sorry here to insinuate that the hiker had lied, but come on, I know if I have my wallet in my pocket.) The point is that in most states it is a crime to provide a policemen with false and/or misleading information. When the Sheriff discovered this apparent deception it again increased his suspicions, and gave him more time to detain and investigate. As for the hiker not remembering his social security number, well this is not very suspicious to me. I have met many, many people who do not know theirs by hart. The thought that the Sheriff lied to the Hiker is realy a moot point. Contrary to common belief a police officer can lie to you to obtain the information he legitametly seeks. There is no law or policy that compells us to always be truthfull. As for the Hiker being offered a ride out of curtesy to the hostel... well maybe, but more likely the police wished to confirm that he indeed was staying there and not that his statement was another falsehood.

The bottem line of is this, should you be stopped, regardless of the demeanor of the officer...co-operate with him. You will still be detained, but you can either sorten that detention or lengthen it by your own responses or demeanor. Yes we do stereotype people based on their looks and many other factors... that's human nature. Just as people stereotype all policemen as brutish ogres of minimal intelect and even fewer morals. There is a demarkation that occures when two people speak to one another. At that moment we decide if our stereotypical asessment of the other was correct or if we are grossly mistaken. If my assesment of you is that of a bum and you reinforce that impression by being evasive and uncooperative, then you have just convinced me that you are a bum. Altermately, if you are friendly and cooperative you may just dispell my perception of you, and find that I will recipricate your courtesy.

The moral if there can be one is, be the better man. Treat others as you wish to be treated, and you may be suprised at the resaults.

As I see this incident it can be viewed in one of two ways: A Sheriff, who for some unspecified reason, enjoys tormenting the occasional hiker in town. Or consider that hiker's have been known to shoplift (like I said there are good and bad in all groups) and the Sheriff has acted as he is expected to by the people of the town who employ him. The data provided is limited and so I could not say with any degree of certainty, but my feeling, from the story related, is that his actions were reasonable under the circumstances described.

Through no fault of their own policemen seem to spend much of their time with those who are not the cream of polite society. Is it any wonder then that policemen expect people to act badly around them. And is it realy a suprise that some in the profession appear less than polite themselves. We seem to want to believe that the police can somehow remain detached and uneffected by things that go on around them. It's as if people expect us to function as machines do. We don't.

Stop by Peterstown when y'all are in the neighborhood. Ask for Kenny Hedrick, I'm usually around town. Your always welcome and we'll chat.:welcome

BooBoo
12-02-2006, 14:18
Nah, I don't like when they closed threads. Sorry, something about the 1st Amendment. ;)


Well I'll try to end my commentary. Then again ya'll that know me know that I have a hard time not putting in my 2 cents(its usually more like several $'s.):p


I'm gonnna go out and enjoy the winterwonderland outside. I like it when it snows out here because it temporaily covers up the bland barreness of the countryside and gives the flatlands the semblance of beauty. At least I have the Spring River Wilderness Area down the road. Than again in Kansas any area with more than two trees with a 10 ft area is like a wilderness area to me:rolleyes: .

Sly
12-02-2006, 14:44
Great post Kenny aka Worm, thanks for chiming in.

Crazy Larry #1
12-02-2006, 16:42
Hi gang. Allow me to establish my providince. I have been a policeman for the past twenty-seven years. I am a retired West Virginia State Police Sergeant, and currently ply my trade at a two-man town police department, in Peterstown, West Virginia (the town overlooked from the Rice Field Shelter on the AT north of Pearisburg, VA). I believe I can offer a counter perspective to this discussion (even if good sense dictates I stay out of it). I offer no judgements here. There are certainly really bad policemen, just as there are really bad doctors, mechanics, sales clerks, and yes, hikers.

From my perspective the story related in the origin of this thread can be catagorized as a typical, indeed routine call that all policemen receive. A Shoplifting complaint. Now realize that regardless of your feelings on the subject, each and every state of the union has uniquely differing laws in regard to crime and its investigation. Likewise each County or City/Town may have it's own set of ordanence that govern. Regardless of where you hale from, when in Rome (or in this case Erwin), you are subject to her laws. And so any discussion of this incident must be filtered in the light of what is legitimate and lawfull in Erwin. Since I know absolutly nothing concerning the prevailing law, I could not say if the Sheriff acted correctly. But I can make a few suggestions to you when dealing with the police, wherever you may find yourself.

The United States Supream Court has upheld the right of the police to temporarily detain a person for a reasonable length of time, in order to investigate a crime. They did not specify what that reasonable amount of time was. In the header of this thread our friend the hiker has been stopped for reasonable suspicion of committing a crime, "Shoplifting." Any officer's first duty is to identify the person to whom he is speaking. As was pointed out later in the thread, you do not have to provide the police with any information at all if you choose not to. This is so, but please realize that this will just delay the process and increase the reasonableness of your detention. It is also not advisable to intentionally give the officer false information, as the hike appears to have done in the original thread when asked for ID. (I'm sorry here to insinuate that the hiker had lied, but come on, I know if I have my wallet in my pocket.) The point is that in most states it is a crime to provide a policemen with false and/or misleading information. When the Sheriff discovered this apparent deception it again increased his suspicions, and gave him more time to detain and investigate. As for the hiker not remembering his social security number, well this is not very suspicious to me. I have met many, many people who do not know theirs by hart. The thought that the Sheriff lied to the Hiker is realy a moot point. Contrary to common belief a police officer can lie to you to obtain the information he legitametly seeks. There is no law or policy that compells us to always be truthfull. As for the Hiker being offered a ride out of curtesy to the hostel... well maybe, but more likely the police wished to confirm that he indeed was staying there and not that his statement was another falsehood.

The bottem line of is this, should you be stopped, regardless of the demeanor of the officer...co-operate with him. You will still be detained, but you can either sorten that detention or lengthen it by your own responses or demeanor. Yes we do stereotype people based on their looks and many other factors... that's human nature. Just as people stereotype all policemen as brutish ogres of minimal intelect and even fewer morals. There is a demarkation that occures when two people speak to one another. At that moment we decide if our stereotypical asessment of the other was correct or if we are grossly mistaken. If my assesment of you is that of a bum and you reinforce that impression by being evasive and uncooperative, then you have just convinced me that you are a bum. Altermately, if you are friendly and cooperative you may just dispell my perception of you, and find that I will recipricate your courtesy.

The moral if there can be one is, be the better man. Treat others as you wish to be treated, and you may be suprised at the resaults.

As I see this incident it can be viewed in one of two ways: A Sheriff, who for some unspecified reason, enjoys tormenting the occasional hiker in town. Or consider that hiker's have been known to shoplift (like I said there are good and bad in all groups) and the Sheriff has acted as he is expected to by the people of the town who employ him. The data provided is limited and so I could not say with any degree of certainty, but my feeling, from the story related, is that his actions were reasonable under the circumstances described.

Through no fault of their own policemen seem to spend much of their time with those who are not the cream of polite society. Is it any wonder then that policemen expect people to act badly around them. And is it realy a suprise that some in the profession appear less than polite themselves. We seem to want to believe that the police can somehow remain detached and uneffected by things that go on around them. It's as if people expect us to function as machines do. We don't.

Stop by Peterstown when y'all are in the neighborhood. Ask for Kenny Hedrick, I'm usually around town. Your always welcome and we'll chat.:welcome
Good stuff!;)

Crazy Larry #1
12-02-2006, 16:43
;)


Well I'll try to end my commentary. Then again ya'll that know me know that I have a hard time not putting in my 2 cents(its usually more like several $'s.):p


I'm gonnna go out and enjoy the winterwonderland outside. I like it when it snows out here because it temporaily covers up the bland barreness of the countryside and gives the flatlands the semblance of beauty. At least I have the Spring River Wilderness Area down the road. Than again in Kansas any area with more than two trees with a 10 ft area is like a wilderness area to me:rolleyes: .
I just talked to dad this morning, he said you guys got about a foot of snow but that is now slowly melting.

The Weasel
12-02-2006, 18:10
Hi gang. Allow me to establish my providince. I have been a policeman for the past twenty-seven years. I am a retired West Virginia State Police Sergeant, and currently ply my trade at a two-man town police department, in Peterstown, West Virginia (the town overlooked from the Rice Field Shelter on the AT north of Pearisburg, VA). I believe I can offer a counter perspective to this discussion (even if good sense dictates I stay out of it). I offer no judgements here. There are certainly really bad policemen, just as there are really bad doctors, mechanics, sales clerks, and yes, hikers.

From my perspective the story related in the origin of this thread can be catagorized as a typical, indeed routine call that all policemen receive. A Shoplifting complaint. Now realize that regardless of your feelings on the subject, each and every state of the union has uniquely differing laws in regard to crime and its investigation. Likewise each County or City/Town may have it's own set of ordanence that govern. Regardless of where you hale from, when in Rome (or in this case Erwin), you are subject to her laws. And so any discussion of this incident must be filtered in the light of what is legitimate and lawfull in Erwin. Since I know absolutly nothing concerning the prevailing law, I could not say if the Sheriff acted correctly. But I can make a few suggestions to you when dealing with the police, wherever you may find yourself.

The United States Supream Court has upheld the right of the police to temporarily detain a person for a reasonable length of time, in order to investigate a crime. They did not specify what that reasonable amount of time was. In the header of this thread our friend the hiker has been stopped for reasonable suspicion of committing a crime, "Shoplifting." Any officer's first duty is to identify the person to whom he is speaking. As was pointed out later in the thread, you do not have to provide the police with any information at all if you choose not to. This is so, but please realize that this will just delay the process and increase the reasonableness of your detention. It is also not advisable to intentionally give the officer false information, as the hike appears to have done in the original thread when asked for ID. (I'm sorry here to insinuate that the hiker had lied, but come on, I know if I have my wallet in my pocket.) The point is that in most states it is a crime to provide a policemen with false and/or misleading information. When the Sheriff discovered this apparent deception it again increased his suspicions, and gave him more time to detain and investigate. As for the hiker not remembering his social security number, well this is not very suspicious to me. I have met many, many people who do not know theirs by hart. The thought that the Sheriff lied to the Hiker is realy a moot point. Contrary to common belief a police officer can lie to you to obtain the information he legitametly seeks. There is no law or policy that compells us to always be truthfull. As for the Hiker being offered a ride out of curtesy to the hostel... well maybe, but more likely the police wished to confirm that he indeed was staying there and not that his statement was another falsehood.

The bottem line of is this, should you be stopped, regardless of the demeanor of the officer...co-operate with him. You will still be detained, but you can either sorten that detention or lengthen it by your own responses or demeanor. Yes we do stereotype people based on their looks and many other factors... that's human nature. Just as people stereotype all policemen as brutish ogres of minimal intelect and even fewer morals. There is a demarkation that occures when two people speak to one another. At that moment we decide if our stereotypical asessment of the other was correct or if we are grossly mistaken. If my assesment of you is that of a bum and you reinforce that impression by being evasive and uncooperative, then you have just convinced me that you are a bum. Altermately, if you are friendly and cooperative you may just dispell my perception of you, and find that I will recipricate your courtesy.

The moral if there can be one is, be the better man. Treat others as you wish to be treated, and you may be suprised at the resaults.

As I see this incident it can be viewed in one of two ways: A Sheriff, who for some unspecified reason, enjoys tormenting the occasional hiker in town. Or consider that hiker's have been known to shoplift (like I said there are good and bad in all groups) and the Sheriff has acted as he is expected to by the people of the town who employ him. The data provided is limited and so I could not say with any degree of certainty, but my feeling, from the story related, is that his actions were reasonable under the circumstances described.

Through no fault of their own policemen seem to spend much of their time with those who are not the cream of polite society. Is it any wonder then that policemen expect people to act badly around them. And is it realy a suprise that some in the profession appear less than polite themselves. We seem to want to believe that the police can somehow remain detached and uneffected by things that go on around them. It's as if people expect us to function as machines do. We don't.

Stop by Peterstown when y'all are in the neighborhood. Ask for Kenny Hedrick, I'm usually around town. Your always welcome and we'll chat.:welcome

Ken: Excellent post, particluarly about the fact that, while citizens must give truthful statements to the police, police are - to some extent - allowed to be untruthful with people they question.

Look at the Backpacking Law 101 thread. I'd enjoy seeing you make posts there; we might not always agree, but with your experience I'd view your opinions as very desireable.

The Weasel

MOWGLI
12-02-2006, 19:01
Stop by Peterstown when y'all are in the neighborhood. Ask for Kenny Hedrick, I'm usually around town. Your always welcome and we'll chat.:welcome

Excellent contribution Kenny. Thanks for posting.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-02-2006, 19:04
Outstanding input, Kenny. Hope to meet you one day :)

woodsy
12-02-2006, 19:10
Kenny, no reason to regret your post. it was informative and a reasonable explanation of how the police operate, or should. You have relayed a previous comment I made about how one should not attract attention to themselves whether it be the way one dresses or looks or behaves in public. It may be that the hiker here did nothing wrong at all to begin with and because of looks alone aroused suspicion at the store or on the street.
Just being a stranger in a small town can cause suspicion so better to be as incognito as possible ya'll's. IMO

rickb
12-02-2006, 19:13
Oh boy, I'm going to regreat this!

You might.

Whiteblaze can be addicting.

Please know that all your posts need not be so good.

Jack Tarlin
12-03-2006, 18:26
Booboo:

You thoughtfully just provided us with the information that you were friendly and courteous "the other times I got arrested."

Ummmm, note to BooBoo. An awful lot of folks manage to get thru their whole lives without getting arrested once, never mind on several occasions.

I'm glad that on all those other occasions you were a model of civility,but has it struck you, just for a minute, that maybe if you hadn't gone thru the unpleasantness of being arrested on several previous occasions, maybe, just maybe, you'd have a higher opinion of the police?

But gee, whiz, I'm sure glad you were a model citizen, and were polite and courteous all "the other times" you got busted.

Sounds like good practice for the next occasion.

Crazy Larry #1
12-04-2006, 09:58
Booboo:

You thoughtfully just provided us with the information that you were friendly and courteous "the other times I got arrested."

Ummmm, note to BooBoo. An awful lot of folks manage to get thru their whole lives without getting arrested once, never mind on several occasions.

I'm glad that on all those other occasions you were a model of civility,but has it struck you, just for a minute, that maybe if you hadn't gone thru the unpleasantness of being arrested on several previous occasions, maybe, just maybe, you'd have a higher opinion of the police?

But gee, whiz, I'm sure glad you were a model citizen, and were polite and courteous all "the other times" you got busted.

Sounds like good practice for the next occasion.

EXACTLY!!!!:clap

bfitz
12-04-2006, 15:56
You ought to be able to be a rude jerk to every cop you encounter and still have him protect your rights and not violate them. They are trained (supposedly) to deal with folks like that. If I am in the hoosegow for the night, they should be yes sir and no sir to me politely, as I am their employer! The standard for their behavior is far higher than the standard for Booboo's. The fact that someone is a jerk doesn't let the cops off on their wrongdoing. Sheesh!

Jack Tarlin
12-04-2006, 19:18
But Bfitz, maybe their BEING a jerk is why they got into trouble in the first place. Re-read some of the previos posts......driving a car that can't pass inspection; ignoring traffic rules and regulations; and driving with THC in your system simply isn't a very smart thing to do.

Mature people take responsibility for their own actions, and for their own troubles.

Those who lack this trait look for others to blame for their woes.

Oh, and while one may have the "right" to be a jerk when dealing with a Police Officer, well, Bfitz, that ain't very smart either. I know LOTS of people who've talked themselves out of problems or worse with cops with a soft voice, a calm demeanor, an admission of regret for a mistake or wrongdoing; and by keeping a smile.

I can think of lots of folks who'vetalked themselves out of ticketsor worse by doing some or all of the above.

I can't think of any who got out of a jam with a cop by deliberately being a jerk.

little bear
12-04-2006, 19:21
You ought to be able to be a rude jerk to every cop you encounter and still have him protect your rights and not violate them. They are trained (supposedly) to deal with folks like that. If I am in the hoosegow for the night, they should be yes sir and no sir to me politely, as I am their employer! The standard for their behavior is far higher than the standard for Booboo's. The fact that someone is a jerk doesn't let the cops off on their wrongdoing. Sheesh!


You can be a rude jerk to every cop you meet and they will still protect you and your rights, but if you have commited an arrestable offense they will not use descretion in arresting you, whereas if you had been polite and respectful they might have just warned you. I show people respect and adress them as sir, until they are no longer respectful to me. Police officers are human and like it has already been said there are good ones(the majority) and there are the small % who are bad ones, but with that being said police are just like everyone else, if you are nasty to them they are less likly to treat you with the upmost respect.

LB

Just Jeff
12-04-2006, 19:47
I don't think police have any more responsibility to treat you with respect than you have to treat them with respect. They're employed to uphold the law and protect your rights, not to make you feel good. Just so happens that treating people with respect usually has much better consequences than being a jerk, so most of them do it. And in my experience, most regular people do too, unless given a reason not to.

weary
12-04-2006, 20:53
It's not Erwin, TN, but NYC.

But below is an example about why some of us think wise people will deal with police with some trepidation.

http://select.nytimes.com/2006/12/04/opinion/04herbert.html?hp

Weary

Jack Tarlin
12-04-2006, 20:57
Thanks, Weary.

Mr. Herbert neglects to mention that one of those poor souls had almost a dozen drug arrests on his rap sheet; in fact, ALL of the gentlemen in question had criminal records.

Oh, the poor wee innocent lambs.

weary
12-04-2006, 21:22
Thanks, Weary.
Mr. Herbert neglects to mention that one of those poor souls had almost a dozen drug arrests on his rap sheet; in fact, ALL of the gentlemen in question had criminal records.
Oh, the poor wee innocent lambs.
Since two of the gentlemen are females, what are you trying to tell us Jack?

bfitz
12-04-2006, 21:52
I'm not saying it isn't a good idea to use a little diplomacy when dealing with the authorities. In fact, I usually make an effort to cultivate a good relationship with police officers and with every person that provides service for that very reason. When I have a problem with that service those people are more eager to fix it than if I'm disrespecting them and bitching. But in fact, a police officer who illegally searches a hippy who mouthed off to him is still violating said hippie's rights, that's the issue here. The weed taken out of his pocket is forbidden fruit. There is a reason the law works this way and it's a good reason. We must be able to trust the "good faith" of the police officer...whatever the hippy does to antagonize the cop (short of actually committing a crime or providing legitimate cause) is irrelevant to the conversation, except in the sense of advising the victim to be more diplomatic next time (because you can't count on good service) just like I am when complaining to my cell phone provider (Hi there, how are you? oh great! look, I know it's not your fault but mabye you can help me out, I have a little problem with my bill...gee I really appreciate it you've been soooo helpful etc etc.) Our forfathers died so we can be free, and live in a society where we need not fear the authorities. Now I know many don't have bad experiences with cops, but I pay close attention to such things, criminal justice is a hobby of mine, and I have to say that we don't live in that society yet...people are imperfect, and cops are people too, but we can't excuse abuses of authority based on who is abused, or wether they deserved it...thats like when your dad spanks you and then justifies it by saying "well, even if you didn't break the vase this spanking is for all the things I didn't catch you at". We all know it's wrong. I personally suffered egregious treatment from one officer in the presence of other officers who did not stop it, nor did they come forward and tell the magistrate or anything like that. I got off but it cost me. Now I acknowledge that my lifestyle is a bit alternative, but that's what liberty and civil rights are all about. Some laws are simply wrong, and when breaking them we need to protect ourselves from persecution. I will teach my children to be wary of police, but not to show disrespect or challenge authority...let your lawyer do that.

Worm
12-05-2006, 12:22
It is truly amazing that these same views are professed by many who commit cime, regardless of which crimes they may choose. I have met Burglars and especially Confidence Men who see nothing at all wrong in what they do. Some even consider their activities to be a God given right, as is the case with groups known as "Travelers," or by some, "Gypsys." The fact remaines, however, that there is not a "right" to commit crime. The premis that police are bound by rules, but the citizen is not; or alternately that the police must play by the rules while the citizen is completely free to act as he or she chooses is at best erroneous. Citizenship comes with an implied duty to obay the rules (laws) enacted by the majority. You may not claim all the rights and privliges of Citizenship without acknowleging that you also have duties. To do otherwise is to be rightfully labaled as a Criminal by the majority. But I will change no ones opinions here, I am sure. The plain simple truth is that the majority shall rule, which makes some opinions more "equal" than others, much to the chagrin of some in the minority.

Worm
12-05-2006, 12:22
It is truly amazing that these same views are professed by many who commit cime, regardless of which crimes they may choose. I have met Burglars and especially Confidence Men who see nothing at all wrong in what they do. Some even consider their activities to be a God given right, as is the case with groups known as "Travelers," or by some, "Gypsys." The fact remaines, however, that there is not a "right" to commit crime. The premis that police are bound by rules, but the citizen is not; or alternately that the police must play by the rules while the citizen is completely free to act as he or she chooses is at best erroneous. Citizenship comes with an implied duty to obay the rules (laws) enacted by the majority. You may not claim all the rights and privliges of Citizenship without acknowleging that you also have duties. To do otherwise is to be rightfully labaled as a Criminal by the majority. But I will change no ones opinions here, I am sure. The plain simple truth is that the majority shall rule, which makes some opinions more "equal" than others, much to the chagrin of some in the minority.

Just Jeff
12-05-2006, 13:57
Agree with most of what you said, and with the principals behind all of it. However...


The plain simple truth is that the majority shall rule, which makes some opinions more "equal" than others, much to the chagrin of some in the minority.

We live in a republic, not a democracy. In fact, you won't find the word "democracy" in the Constitution. That's b/c our laws were set up to protect the minority against the majority...i.e., to provide a check against majority rule and protect the rights of the individual.

What makes America different from many other countries is that the basic unit for our society is the individual...not the tribe, political party, or society in general. The individual, no matter his affiliations, must be protected. Majority rule is the exact opposite of that...and I think the Constitution is right on.

So while we'll never get around the practicality of power and some people having "more equal" opinions, in the eyes of the law - our laws at least - a minority of one is just as important as the majority.

halftime
12-05-2006, 14:07
We live in a republic, not a democracy. In fact, you won't find the word "democracy" in the Constitution. That's b/c our laws were set up to protect the minority against the majority...i.e., to provide a check against majority rule and protect the rights of the individual.

What makes America different from many other countries is that the basic unit for our society is the individual...not the tribe, political party, or society in general. The individual, no matter his affiliations, must be protected. Majority rule is the exact opposite of that...and I think the Constitution is right on.

So while we'll never get around the practicality of power and some people having "more equal" opinions, in the eyes of the law - our laws at least - a minority of one is just as important as the majority.

..Well said...

bfitz
12-05-2006, 18:33
.... Citizenship comes with an implied duty to obay the rules (laws) enacted by the majority. You may not claim all the rights and privliges of Citizenship without acknowleging that you also have duties. To do otherwise is to be rightfully labaled as a Criminal by the majority. But I will change no ones opinions here, I am sure. The plain simple truth is that the majority shall rule, which makes some opinions more "equal" than others, much to the chagrin of some in the minority.
Police officers swear to uphold the law and follow the strict code of conduct devised to protect citizens from having rights violated, intentionally or unintentionally. Worm, I don't expect a police officer to ignore legitimate cause as defined by law when they arrest me. I personally believe some laws are silly, and so I disobey them as I please. I don't expect any understanding from a police officer who arrests me by the book for comitting one of these acts. But for that officer to stalk, harras or intentionally violate procedure to obtain cause or evidence and make an arrest is an abuse of authority, and a violation of his oath. As a member of the supposed "minority" I find it easier to be clandestine when engaging in my particular illegal activities, rather than commit overtly public "civil disobedience" since to attract attention would cause me more trouble than it's worth to me, but in fact one of the duties of the citizen you describe is to participate in fighting injustice and molding a better society. I've found in my particular area most of the police officers don't go out of their way to invade privacy or violate folks rights to ferret out minor "crimes" such as marijuana posession, but when my friend giggled about methods of cicumventing the obstacle of "probable cause" I had to scold him...he was taking an "ends justify the means" approach, and I had to set him straight about what that concept was all about. Abuse of authority is the worst kind of crime a human can commit. Authority must be trusted and respected to funtion properly, when those in authority violate that trust they become "pigs", and they perpetuate the use of such terms by those victimized or those who would like to percieve themselves as vicims of authority.

Worm
12-06-2006, 11:42
I bow to Just Jeff's wisdom. You are correct sir, in that you are speaking of Constitutional principal and the law that flows from it. The scope of my comments were more narrowly focused. In this case on crimal statute. I do not feel one has a right violate law simply because one disagrees with that law. I do feel that you have a right to work to change those laws you disagree with. From that perspective the majority does indeed prevail. That is the simple reason that a general discusson of such laws, as occur here, is so diffacault. The laws are not the same where you live, as where I live. I am not speaking of federal statute or of the constitution. I refer to State and Local criminal statute which tends to be (and indeed must be) more stringent that of the Federal Government.

Considering bfitz's comments; I would catagorize them as somewhat misinformed. Yes my oath is to uphold the laws of the State of West Virginia and that of the United States, but there is no such reference to a the code of conduct that you mention. Conduct is regulated by way of policy and proceedures promolgated by the Department Head, and is subject to revision. This perhaps illistrates regional differences. Such as your use of the term "legitimate cause." We use no such term, the term that is used in both federal and local language that I am familiar with is "probable cause" and has nothing what-so-ever to do with legitimacy. And yes, an arrest may be based opon probable cause. Absent it, the court will dismiss the case (but you still won't get your dope back...sorry). Your comments of harassment, stalking, etc., etc. are quite vague, indeed, and perhaps dependant upon perspective. Can I follow people, spy upon them, probe into their presonal lives, bank accounts, and do the other things you mention? Of course I can...if done within the frame work of policy and proceedure. Some of these activities require judicial autorizaton, but not all. I can follow you and watch you all I care to. In fact if you violate our laws it is what is expected of me. I may investigate whenever I suspect a violation has occured within the constraints mentioned. But, I believe that you primarily refere to laws of arrest, search and seizure. The Supreme Court modifies these frequently as you well know, but remember that States also may make changes. The net outcome is that they are differently applied from place to place, with the Federal version constituting a minimum standard. By the By, Marijuana posession here is not viewed as a minor infraction. It will get you arrested, and if convicted there is wide array of penalties open to the descretion of our courts ranging from probation to a fine of up to $1000.00, and confinement of from 90 days to six months, with the confinement being the most often imposed. God help you if you share some with a friend, thats delivery and ques the felony provisions. This activity you find so benign a recreation, is the most often complaint I here in this community, and is the root of many of our property crimes as well. No we wont ever agree on Marijuana or any other drug. And no I won't violate your rights to arrest you, but I damn sure will go out of my way to build a case. Policemen are not always right, but we are always agressive in our work. So I suspect you may always find fodder for your complaints. Be resigned...I am. Nice chat, work takes me elswhere now. So I won't be around to respond to for a while, I'm sorry to say. Again, I won't change any minds here, but remember that one should not listen to just one side of this dedate and think that it is the final authority for those who travel the AT. Laws and people are different where ever you go, you to must adjust or suffer. I am afraid that bfitz, my friend you may always have to suffer. But on the bright side I will never be out of work!! Happy trials.

The Weasel
12-06-2006, 12:18
*** Happy trials.

Ah, yes...the song that Roy and Dale used to sing to us lawyers.

The Weasel

Just Jeff
12-06-2006, 12:50
The scope of my comments were more narrowly focused. In this case on crimal statute.

True...but criminal statutes still cannot violate the Constitution or they will be overturned when challenged. Criminal statutes cannot impinge an individuals' rights. The majority's rights end where the minority's are harmed. And any local law, statute or ordinance that does violate an individual must be challenged and overturned.

Cops work inside that framework. Good cops and bad cops can be dealt with as appropriate, but the citizenry must always make sure the framework represents the values of America as enshrined in our Constitution. And the tyrrany of the majority isn't among them.

Tyrrany of majority, as emplaced by a pure majority rules democracy with no checks to protect individual rights, would legally justify ethnic cleansing of minorities, legal persecution of unpopular political viewpoints (freedom of speech is an individual right), racism of any minority race, etc. That's not what I'm fighting for.

The law of this land is a republic, not a democracy. The Bill of Rights was put in place specifically to put constraints on the majority rule that could tyrranize minorities in an elected government.

Thanks for your service.

bfitz
12-06-2006, 13:21
I should have said "legitimate probable cause".

Don't make up lies in order to justify a gut feeling that you should search. Don't take advantage of peoples' ignorance of their own rights in a situation to violate those rights. Respect civil rights and follow the laws and procedures put in place by your government to protect citizens from abuses. That's all I expect.

I assert to you that marijuana is associated with crime only in that it is relegated to the black market. It's a mild intoxicant, closer to cigarettes than anything else.

Alcohol intoxication and the crime, auto accidents, and general social harm that goes along with it is is far more problematic.

However, I don't believe intoxication or drug use or posession of any kind ought to be illegal. Just like guns dont kill people, people do, drugs dont commit crimes, people do. But that's a different argument.

Marijuana is one of the most innocent recreational chemicals known to man, and the ridiculous hypocriy that allows it to be illegal while other drugs are legal is absurd, and also one of the Great Injustices of our times.

But police who lie in court, invent probable cause, and intentionally violate the rights of citizens are the worst of all criminals. Those that do not, who strive to treat everyone honestly and by the book, try to diplomatically resolve problems between citizens whom they put their lives on the line to protect and are in general friends to the communities they serve are the greatest of heros. God bless them, and you, sir, if you are one of those.

Just Jeff
12-06-2006, 16:40
But police who lie in court, invent probable cause, and intentionally violate the rights of citizens are the worst of all criminals. Those that do not, who strive to treat everyone honestly and by the book, try to diplomatically resolve problems between citizens whom they put their lives on the line to protect and are in general friends to the communities they serve are the greatest of heros. God bless them, and you, sir, if you are one of those.

Sums up this entire thread nicely. With tremendous power comes tremendous responsibility. And just like guns and drugs, it's the individual that makes the difference.

deadair
12-06-2006, 17:47
if a cop treats me with respect i treat the cop with respect, if they are rude to me then i am rude back. Just my nature i suppose

BooBoo
12-08-2006, 04:06
Worm I certainly hope that that poison known as methamphetamine hasn't hit your area. That ***** is allover the midwest.:mad: Especially in this locale.:mad: :mad: . That crap hits your area you'll never get any rest 'cause your crime rate will skyrocket.

Tweakers suck!

The Weasel
12-08-2006, 14:59
if a cop treats me with respect i treat the cop with respect, if they are rude to me then i am rude back. Just my nature i suppose

It is generally a poor idea to be rude to men or women who are carrying guns. They have the ability to make your life a whole lot more unpleasant than you do theirs.

If you do not yet realize this, you will, shortly after you are stopped by a law enforcement officer who does not meet your standards of civility.

The Weasel

The Mayor
12-08-2006, 16:18
Unfortunately, OP's story is typical behaviour of cops in that area.
I grew up in those parts, and the cops/sheriffs will harass you in a heartbeat. Don't bait them, but don't back down either. All young people and any long hairs can expect "attention" from the authorities. Most hikers will never have any problems, but if you get cross ways with them, they will go out of their way to nail you hard. I'd say they rival Mexician cops in terms of honesty and intregity.

oldfivetango
05-06-2007, 14:19
No fascist comments, but I cannot read the first three paragraphs and believe the last one.

Regarding your four points in the first paragraph, none violate any laws. And none of this was known by the sheriff BEFORE he started hassling the guy.

I think the Ed Bell had it right. He looked lilke a trouble maker might look, and was hassled for it. The sheriff could have gotten lucky and found drugs on the guy, but he was clean. No matter. If the sheriff keeps doing this to everyone he sees that looks like he might have drugs, eventually he'll find some and make an arrest.

The problem with all this is that the search is done without cause. If you are okay with searching without cause as long as it ends up nabbing a few people possessing drugs, that is certainly your right.Many people feel that way. But you will need to turn in your flaming liberal card, and get a law-and-order-at-any-cost conservative card :D

As a card carrying conservative I have always wondered what local law
enforcement does with all the drugs and money they seize in the busts.
You will never make me believe it is not resold,either in whole or in part.
Oldfivetango

mweinstone
05-06-2007, 15:09
im the lady who called, dirtnap. i saw you put something in your pocket at food lion. so i disquized my voice as a lady and called 911. i told them you were stealing . then i watched you get hasseled while i enjoyed a cup of tea . right now im calling in another fake report in erwin. all the way from philly. im tellin the cops bfitz was pissin in the back yard last night. its illegal ya know.cant hide from the territ of justise.

bfitz
05-06-2007, 15:12
The cops came by last night to quiet us down and were friendly and polite. These guys probably would've had a drink with us if they were off duty. Seems to me like the problem in Erwin is mostly at the top.

BigwaveDave
05-11-2007, 15:42
All you hippies have rurn't our trail, with your dope parties and stealin. Ya'll need to get hare cuts and Jesus and you'll be alot better off. The police are here to protect and serve our needs, can't you know?

oldfivetango
05-11-2007, 18:59
MDionne--

Please don't put words in my mouth that I never said.

I NEVER said he deserved to be targeted or singled out. What I actually said, (and Dirtnap has essentially agreed with me) is that because of his appearance, it is inevitable that he attracts more attention in smaller towns.

And there's no need to bring politics or race into this discussion. When in town Dirtnap doesn't look like a hiker. He looks like a vagrant, OK? He also tends to neglect certain personal matters, and this also attracts unwanted attention.

If one looks like a bum, dresses like one, washes like one, well one is going to be mistaken for one. And this has nothing to do with bias, bigotry, or anything else.

Save the liberal guilt-ridden rant for another thread, God knows there are enouigh of them here to last til Christmas. People get judged by the their appearance, OK? It happens at job interviews; it happens when you're shopping in a store; it happens more often that you think.

And it happens in Trail towns, too.

Lastly, note to BooBoo. While I'm genuinely sorry you won't be at Trail Days, the fact remains that if you hadn't broken laws in the first place, you wouldn't be in legal trouble now. Sorry you haven't figured this out yet after 30-odd years on the planet, but the best way not to attract the attention of law enforcement personnel is to not break the law. People that don't want to get in trouble for using illegal recreational drugs can always stop using them, no?

And it used to happen to me all the time when I was young and single...
being judged by looks alone....how fair is that ?:D
Oldfivetango

Dances with Mice
05-11-2007, 19:06
MDionne--Please don't put words in my mouth that I never said....

Save the liberal guilt-ridden rant for another thread, God knows there are enouigh of them here to last til Christmas. .... That quote was from 5/12/2006. Jack was a bit conservative (heh!) on the date, wasn't he?