View Full Version : Missing hiker's campsite saves lost hikers
hikerzim
05-10-2006, 11:25
Found this on CNN. http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/10/losthikers.found.ap/index.html
Jack Tarlin
05-10-2006, 11:44
Instructive reading, especially for those who repeatedly tell others, especially
newcomers to backpacking, that essential items, such as maps, aren't necessary on popular "well-marked" trails.
Found this on CNN. http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/10/losthikers.found.ap/index.html
Is this "lost hiker" the same one that was being talked about here last year?
Member of a hiking club down South and a friend of one that reads this forum?
I've often wondered about him.
:-?
Not to start yet another one of these threads, but the PCT isn't well marked. In fact, it's hardly marked at all.
I agree though that newcomers to backpacking should always carry maps, and know how to use them.
Is this "lost hiker" the same one that was being talked about here last year?
Member of a hiking club down South and a friend of one that reads this forum?
I've often wondered about him.
:-?
Yes, it's that hiker. I was saying on another forum that there's a poetic beauty to how it all worked out. One guy goes missing, exactly how I want to go when it's my time, and then his pack is found a full year later in the middle of nowhere by two lost hikers who are able to save themselves.
SGT Rock
05-10-2006, 12:40
Not to start yet another one of these threads, but the PCT isn't well marked. In fact, it's hardly marked at all.
I agree though that newcomers to backpacking should always carry maps, and know how to use them.
Actually the point was that the two hikers that found the backpack were lost from hiking on another trail:
Day, 28, and Allen, 24, were in Southern California for a financial convention. They got lost west of Palm Springs when they wandered off a trail near the Palm Springs Aerial Tramway during what was supposed to be a day hike.
So yes, see if they had a map, they could have gotten themselves "found". The point was not about how John Donovan got lost on the PCT which is not a well marked trail - and in that case it is absolutly true you need maps.
hammock engineer
05-10-2006, 12:47
I agree with Jack and Rock, this shows that you need to take all of the essentials with you. These people were luckly. If they had not found his pack, then this might have turned out different. If they had been carring, food, matches, light, map, compass, they would not have needed this luck to get out or get found.
A lesson for those short day hikes.
You're right... I misread the post. My apologies.
And out west, I think it's always smart to carry maps, because of the higher elevations, more varient weather, and sometimes total lack of trail markings. Or total lack of trail for that matter. I can't even count the times on the PCT when the trail just dissapeared and I had to strike out with map and compass in the direction the trail was supposed to head. Much fun.
littlelaurel59
05-10-2006, 12:55
I have hiked in the area- it is beautiful. Clear, well-marked trails in Mt. San Jacinto State Wilderness Park- IF you stay on them!
If you chose to get off trail, it's a good idea to have map and compass, and basic emergency supplies. These folks were lucky.
SGT Rock
05-10-2006, 12:55
Actually I like the sound of that. I have hiked in a few places where there is no "trail" just a corrior and I love that sort of hiking.
I agree. It was a blast. Find a few way markers, find where you think the next pass is, and head out. It a lot of fun. With even basic map skills, it's not that hard. And eventually the trail reappears.
I think that's why the CDT sounds so fun... even more map and compass work.
what Rock and jack said is very true I got lost many times on the pct 2004 in may myself some by choice,some do to the snow and well thats why I personally like extra gear while out hiking you just never know!ky
Hana_Hanger
05-10-2006, 13:21
I agree with Jack and Rock, this shows that you need to take all of the essentials with you. These people were luckly. If they had not found his pack, then this might have turned out different. If they had been carring, food, matches, light, map, compass, they would not have needed this luck to get out or get found.
A lesson for those short day hikes.
I agree...I have found that I now carry all of the above, plus extra water and a tarp....even for a short 4 - 6 mile hike.
Due to having very poor health, one never knows what may flare up and you can find yourself in trouble quickly.
I now go prepared for each hike like I was going on a 3 day hike, since I hike solo...only because no one here whats to hike :eek:
I also call before my hike and another call after my hike, that way my family knows if they need to go out looking for me.
The Cheat
05-10-2006, 13:22
Is this "lost hiker" the same one that was being talked about here last year?
Member of a hiking club down South and a friend of one that reads this forum?
I've often wondered about him.
:-?
Yup, same one. I had posted this same article over there.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9052
Instructive reading, especially for those who repeatedly tell others, especially
newcomers to backpacking, that essential items, such as maps, aren't necessary on popular "well-marked" trails.
Jack, of course, is right, despite the many who claim maps aren't necessary on the AT. Think of maps as a hiker's airbag or seat belt. I've never "needed" either. But I certainly recognize that both could save me from serious injury or worse sometime.
If anything a map is even better than such auto safety devices. Airbags and seat belts do nothing accept in that rare emergency. A map provides useful information daily. It tells you the name of distant mountains, tells you the name of the town in the valley, often discloses where that road crossing leads, and just generally keeps one informed of the trail and the surrounding country.
Those of us with any curiosity about the country through which we are walking certainly will carry maps. Those who could care less about the countryside should also -- if only for that occasional instance when maps contribute also to trail safety.
I also carry maps because part of the pleasure of backpacking is that feeling of self sufficiency -- that sense that I can cope with any problem I may encounter. Sure, with the proliferation of hikers, cell phones and hikers with cell phones that sense of independence can be avoided. But I like it anyway.
YMMV.
Weary
gsingjane
05-10-2006, 15:47
I, too, thought quite a bit about John Donovan last year when there was the spate of postings by his friends, telling how he had gone missing and the search. What a strange story, that lost hikers found his pack and were able to help themselves using his gear - but in its own way, it's sort of a beautiful story, too. I certainly hope that the searchers are able to use the clues provided to find his remains now and perhaps bring his family to some peace. Thank you very much for posting this. I think I'll remember it for a long time.
Jane in CT
Alligator
05-10-2006, 16:18
Once in a while on the trail I've daydreamed that if I were to expire there, that I would become a shade to help wayward hikers.
Who knows:dance ?
Kozmic Zian
05-10-2006, 19:39
Yea, Independence....
One of my 'Pet Peaves' on The Trail is the guy who comes up only when he needs something that he didn't bring to avoid the weight. 'I don't need any maps, they weigh too much'....Believe me you need maps, just like Jack says, 'They Give you lot's of information'....stuff that everyone can use, no matter how much they've hiked. There's always the time that you wander off and have to figure out where you are, and how to get back....what if you need water? He, Heh....you better have yo' maps, dude. KZ@
Even thought the AT is pretty well marked and you see lots of hikers, the maps
kept us from walking down the wrong trail and miles out of our way more than once. I was really surprised that some of the hikers didn't have a map and couldn't understand it when I tried to show them mine. The map also came in very handy for finding water a couple of times and knowing how many more miles I had to go before the next water source or possible camp site. I don't know how anyone can hike without a map. The few times I didn't have one for a section I really missed it.
I did a search on trailjournals sight and found another hiker who mentioned this hiker in reference to a picture at about the time he disappeared. The hiker is
Mini Mart -Eric White
http://www.trailjournals.com/photos.cfm?id=134566
The caption to the picture taken May 5th says
"I bypassed Fuller Ridge via Waterman Road. Others didn't including John Donovan aka Seabreeze who continued on in bad weather."
Thursday, May 05, 2005
Sometimes it is hard to know when to give it up and take an easier route or take a break and go for some shelter.
Bees Knees
My father was an air force pilot, then flew with the national guard. When he bought a boat, then a plane, both complete with electronics, he always taught me basic navigation using maps, or charts as they are called on the water or in the air. He taught me that I should never take for granted that I can see where I am or trust my life entirely on electronics. Your line of sight could be impaired by weather or electronics could fail or worse - both could fail at once. I learned how to read charts, plot courses and keep my eye on them continuously, whether he was flying me somewhere in his small plane or taking me somewhere in the boat or even on a road trip. You always want to know where you are and the same applies to being in the woods or on a trail. Bring maps, follow your progress, and know where you are - your life could depend on it. There are plenty of stories like the examples here where failure to understand this basic premise cost people their lives.
you people are a little overly cautious, don't you think? you're the kind of people who won't step on sidewalk cracks. sure you can think up all sorts of bizarre reasons to carry a map on the a.t. if you want to carry one, go ahead. but on the a.t., you very obviously don't need a map as long as you can manage to stay on the trail and follow the blazes. if you can't do that, then you're probably too stupid to figure out a map anyway.
SGT Rock
05-11-2006, 11:04
Actually I don't think so, and thanks for insulting the intelligence of people that do. Makes your point well (not).
Clark Fork
05-11-2006, 12:05
you people are a little overly cautious, don't you think? you're the kind of people who won't step on sidewalk cracks. sure you can think up all sorts of bizarre reasons to carry a map on the a.t. if you want to carry one, go ahead. but on the a.t., you very obviously don't need a map as long as you can manage to stay on the trail and follow the blazes. if you can't do that, then you're probably too stupid to figure out a map anyway.
Hey Mingo! Some folks report good results with a bran muffin or two.
As far a bizarre reasons to carry a map, most folks appreciate that the hiking experience comes down to a series of probabilities. If your want to go from point A to point B and do so successfully it is best to tip the odds in your favor. Hikers increase their odds for success by hiking light, eating right and getting fit before hiking. By adopting good habits and routines such as taking care of feet regularly during the hike, hikers also increase the chance of success.
If there is a good chance things will go great during the hike, there is also the probability something will go awry; some times the odds run out. The most common event is the need to get off the trail. While the trail itself is easy to follow, knowing how and where to safely get off the trail is likely to be the most frequent "bizarre reason." for carrying a map and for that matter a compass. As bizarre as it might seem, having a map and being able to help a fellow hiker is, I think, another strong argument for carrying a map.
The other issue is plain and simple confidence. I just hike better with a more positive attitude if I know where I am and where I am going. Things seem to go better and I have more confidence if I have the right equipment. A map and compass just good equipment.
Clark Fork in Western Montana "Where Seldom is Heard a Discouraging Word."
Just Jeff
05-11-2006, 12:15
You ever notice how people stop listening when someone starts a conversation with "You people"? They may continue reading or hearing, but they're probably not listening.
Personally, I feel sorry for people who can't make a point without insulting others. Shows more about how they feel about themselves than what they feel about the people they're insulting.
I always carry a map when I'm hiking, and I frequently pull it out when I don't need it just to see what's around. More importantly, when I'm hiking with my kids I pull it out so they get into the habit of using one. Even though they can't really use it by themselves yet, they know it's just part of being in the woods.
what insult? you are the ones handing out the insults by saying that anyone who doesn't carry a map is an unprepared idiot. i merely stated that if you can't follow the a.t., you're probably too stupid to understand a map. i wasn't insulting any of you by that comment. it's just walking in the woods, for christ's sake. it's easy to follow a clear path with big white blazes on the trees.
If your want to go from point A to point B and do so successfully it is best to tip the odds in your favor.
i repeat, it's just walking in the woods. you're not davy crockett out there battling against the injuns.
Those who like to tarp (I use to be one years ago) should take note to Donovan's missing. A tarp is less than nothing in extreme cold, high wind and heavy snowfall, especially for long periods of time. The PCT will give you this kind of stuff at any time. I can't help wonder if he had some type of tent he would have made it out. Others on the trail around the same time, with tent, did. A tarp might be taking a chance when in the high Sierras.
"Be prepared." - Lord Baden Powell
That area isn't the High Sierras, but it's still high up there. I also got caught in a snow storm on Fuller Ridge, though I obviously didn't have a problem. We got a couple inches that night.
I think in that area, given the state of the trails and the weather, it's very smart to carry maps (which, by the way, Donovan had, since they are incorporated into the PCT guide book), and I think people should always carry maps out there... or most any trail for that matter that's not marked well/travelled well/has extreme weather possibilities. For me, the AT doesn't require them, at least during the summer months. I know a lot of people disagree with me on that, and I understand their point about the "what if" situation that could pop up. Sure, it's a risk, but I feel it's a very small one on the AT. During late fall through early spring though, I would always carry a map. All this is said though because I am pretty secure in my ability to survive in the woods given what I carry on me for a good length of time.
That said, from here on out I plan to carry maps on the AT, mainly because I want to know what's around me. And the added safety is a good bonus.
you people are a little overly cautious, don't you think? you're the kind of people who won't step on sidewalk cracks. sure you can think up all sorts of bizarre reasons to carry a map on the a.t. if you want to carry one, go ahead. but on the a.t., you very obviously don't need a map as long as you can manage to stay on the trail and follow the blazes. if you can't do that, then you're probably too stupid to figure out a map anyway.
Well, what if you don't manage to stay on the trail due to fog, darkness, poorly blazed sections etc.? How da heck will you ever know where you are without a map?
Maybe the reason Mingo doesn't feel the need to use maps while hiking is because he/she doesn't know how to read them.
Best be prepared for the unexpected and bring maps and compass.
Maps are useless in white-out conditions. GPS a little better. Best to take cover till the weather clears some. I carry a map, compass, and GPS when going back-country. I only use the GPS for waypoint setting unless I use routing I downloaded from topo map software. On the AT you really only need a "AT Companion" for the section or state you're hiking (and always carry a compass).
you people are a little overly cautious, don't you think? you're the kind of people who won't step on sidewalk cracks. sure you can think up all sorts of bizarre reasons to carry a map on the a.t. if you want to carry one, go ahead. but on the a.t., you very obviously don't need a map as long as you can manage to stay on the trail and follow the blazes. if you can't do that, then you're probably too stupid to figure out a map anyway.
Well Mingo, actually you did insult every poster on this thread. By starting off with 'you people' you referred to the posters on this thread, and therefore, your entire rant was directed at us. REALLY BAD FORM. And your analogy of carrying maps as a precaution being likened to a superstition is a REALLY BAD analogy.
IMHO anyone who advocates not using maps, and then calling the ones that do stupid, is the pot calling the kettle black.
For the most part I tend to agree with mingo's posts concerning maps on the AT.
As Ender pointed out, in John Donavan's case, maps didn't help. Although he was considered an experienced hiker, he was out of his realm on the PCT. And as Ridge pointed out, it's best to hunker down in such conditions.
Skidsteer
05-11-2006, 17:53
you people are a little overly cautious, don't you think? you're the kind of people who won't step on sidewalk cracks. sure you can think up all sorts of bizarre reasons to carry a map on the a.t. if you want to carry one, go ahead. but on the a.t., you very obviously don't need a map as long as you can manage to stay on the trail and follow the blazes. if you can't do that, then you're probably too stupid to figure out a map anyway.
Use you imagination just a bit. Even if you are correct that it is impossible for anyone but a stupid person to get lost on the A.T., do you imagine that A.T. hikers(even thru-hikers)uniformly stay on the A. T. 100% of the time?
Have you never taken a blue blaze or side trail to a scenic overlook or a waterfall, etc.? Some of the most interesting country to see is off-trail. These side trails are seldom( almost never ) blazed or maintained as well as the main corridor. In fact, some are decidedly obscure.
On three separate occasions I've met folks who had been lost on the Deep Gap trail that leads from Georgia to Deep Gap on the A.T. in NC. It's only 2.5 miles long. Fortunately, that area is a spiderweb of footpaths and they all eventually popped out on another trail and "got found". Lucky.
Would I feel safe hiking without a map? Perhaps in GA, but I've walked the thing about a dozen times. I live here. One of the reasons( besides safety ) I will carry maps if I get a chance to thru-hike is because I want to know where the side trails lead.
I'm curious, but I don't want curiosity to kill the Skidsteer.:D
what insult? you are the ones handing out the insults by saying that anyone who doesn't carry a map is an unprepared idiot. i merely stated that if you can't follow the a.t., you're probably too stupid to understand a map. i wasn't insulting any of you by that comment. it's just walking in the woods, for christ's sake. it's easy to follow a clear path with big white blazes on the trees.
Of course it is, especially if you have no curiosity about what's around you. But then if you are hiking without a sense of curiosity, why bother?
Maps are useful everyday for those whose goal is to understand a bit about the trail and its environment, rather than simply to get from Georgia to Maine, or Maine to Georgia.
Maps also come in handy in heavy cloud cover above timberline, or when you wander off the trail for some reason -- either deliberately or by mistake. Bizarre as it may seem to Mingo, sometimes a few of us even like to know where a road leads, the name of the town in the valley, or the name of that peak on the far horizon.
Weary
icemanat95
05-11-2006, 23:16
Maps are useless in white-out conditions. GPS a little better. Best to take cover till the weather clears some. I carry a map, compass, and GPS when going back-country. I only use the GPS for waypoint setting unless I use routing I downloaded from topo map software. On the AT you really only need a "AT Companion" for the section or state you're hiking (and always carry a compass).
Maps work out OK in a white out IF you are hiking with a partner, can start from a fixed position, and understand the concept of pace-count. With a solid pace-count, a map, a compass and a known starting point, you can navigate yourself around quite nicely. Having a partner allows you to follow an azimuth or a line more accurately and more safely. I've done quite a bit of navigating above tree-line in winter conditions, including white outs, in the White Mountains. It's very doable. If the white out is so bad that you can't see the map well, that's another issue, but it is rarely that bad. In those cases however, you build shelter, hunker down and wait it out.
Well, what if you don't manage to stay on the trail due to fog, darkness, poorly blazed sections etc.? How da heck will you ever know where you are without a map?
Maybe the reason Mingo doesn't feel the need to use maps while hiking is because he/she doesn't know how to read them.
Best be prepared for the unexpected and bring maps and compass.
speaking of the AT....
in a white out you listen...the trail makes sounds that you only have when you are on it because it is hard packed, gully most of the time...a single step to either side will tell you you are off the AT....also, headlamps pointed at ever single tree you hike slowly by will show you every quarter mile to half mile or less that yes, even tho you are whited out, yes you are still in the correct gully....another thing, trail maintainance is a blaze too, tho when you cross places where there are side trails it can be tricky, some blue blaze trails have better maintainance as well as more traffic, but you should be checking for white or blue blazes in a white out.
in the dark you can still see with a headlamp and check to see the rock you are crawling over...is the moss and lechins, and the minut little above treeline kinda things that live on rocks, are they there or are they gone....if there is no life on the rocks, look closer, yes there has been 80,000 people come thru here...yes i am on the right path again, and yes there is a blaze just ahead. foot path traffic on the AT is very easily distinguished by the absolute lack of life on the places we walk.
snow...ok fair rebuttal...there is always someone ahead of you even when there is fresh snow covering the trail. look for the little orange and pink flags that winter crews come thru with for amazingingly enough trail markers in white outs and fresh snow. not everywhere of course, but you can find them, because, you guessed it, those hunters don't realize trail maintainance is a blaze....you must be careful when a hunter puts up winter hunting blazes...they will leave the trail and stop at their favorite hunting locations so here also you must be sure at eye level when the snow is on the trees...to wipe a bit of snow off as ya pass to double check for blazes on the treees....also i didn't mention above, always look in a white out at the back side of trees...you guessed it, those southbound blazes say hey NOBO keep going north, but yes yer still on the correct trail....further north, you guessed it....they have rock piles...follow them and add a stone as ya pass.
other ways to tell in new snow is you guessed it, sound again....those leaves that are under the snow tell you that you are on the AT, yes i have never been walked on I am still all crisp and crunchity, but that hard packed snow that was covered, it is the trail it just makes another sound even when there are drifts over it.
land marks also allow you to know you are still on the trail even when there are no blazes, trail maintainance or that reassuring gully we call the AT.... limited glaces ahead generally shows the path....it has an amazing capability of telling you, yes the tunnel that is less dense....that is the trail....since yer in the snow...if per chance you get off trail in this condition, retrace yer steps and don't go the same direction on yer next try....retrace back to where you are absolutely sure that you were and are on the trail....if overwhelmed...unsure....you at least have back tracked to a known location that is the trail.....set up camp...eat....spend the night, have another go tomorrow when you are much more confident of yer location or someone else comes along and you can let them blaze the trail ahead of you or branch out one staying on trail, another doing field tests of more probable locations for the trail to follow.
if, you don't have maps you can use these clues....if you have maps and don't have a clue how to use them, you are in danger if you choose this time to experiement...find the last known location of the trail and wait for someone to come help you out, provided you didn't just blaze on in absolute recklessness.. If you have maps, experience, compas or experience in navigating without compas...you will be able to use them....i think that is all mingo was trying to say
all my suggestions about how do i find the trail in the dark or in a whiteout are from a perspective of...going slow in these conditions....if you are seriously unsure and ill prepared to do some simple investigation....take small pieces of duct tape and mark yer path so you can get back to a known location of the trail.
what insult?.......... i merely stated that if you can't follow the a.t., you're probably too stupid to understand a map. I take it you have never had a situation on the trail before, cause the reasons people get lost, turned around, in trouble due to bad weather, injured and in need of quick exit, ect. ect. don't cease because they are on the A.T. Try reading your posts before you hit submit. I just showed you your insulting remarks. Maybe you are the one who is probably stupid.:-?:D
trail maintainance = water bars, steps, switchbacks, tree trimming or cut thrus of blowdowns, blazes, water pipes, signs to side trails, shelters and other points of interest. oddly enough, some blow downs are actually stacked up twigs and rubbish to block you from going thru previous sections of the AT and going over or thru them is actually not the thing to do....investigate is this a fresh blowdown or a pile of trail maintainance.
AT art also....baby karnes or carnes....miniture carnes seem to be popping up down south for when it become treeline and just for art sake...
also, those places where there are spots that just seem like the perfect camp site...maybe it is one the originals used 3way back went, it is such a lovely flat spot with a clearing a fire ring and a kinda sorta make shift log for a bench...i know all these are just common knowledge...but then again maybe some folks are not thinking this deep into the ideas woodsy was questioning along the AT
Burn, Very nice post with lots of good tips, but if mingo was trying to say that then he did a poor job.
Was out west on business and hiked a little in the Panamint range in Death Valley National Park on a marked trail and had a coworker friend with me. We planed a day hike up Telescope Peak and allowed ourselves to be separated on the way up. He promptly wandered unintentionally off the trail at a switchback and unbeknown to me spent the next hour in a panic till some other hikers heard him yelling and got him back on the trial. Lesson learned for both of us. The next day we did another peak and watched each other’s back.
[quote=weary]Of course it is, especially if you have no curiosity about what's around you. But then if you are hiking without a sense of curiosity, why bother?
Maps are useful everyday for those whose goal is to understand a bit about the trail and its environment, rather than simply to get from Georgia to Maine, or Maine to Georgia.
Maps also come in handy in heavy cloud cover above timberline, or when you wander off the trail for some reason -- either deliberately or by mistake. Bizarre as it may seem to Mingo, sometimes a few of us even like to know where a road leads, the name of the town in the valley, or the name of that peak on the far horizon.
Well said Weary, there is much info on maps and they are worth their weight in gold. I have always enjoyed learning the names of surrounding streams, ponds, roads, mountains etc. Trail signs can be far and few inbetween at times, and with basic map and compass skills you can almost always know where you are.
Ed Bell mentioned having to exit the trail expediently for reasons of injury or
whatever and often the AT is not the fastest or easiest route to help, road, or civilization. Anyone bushwacking off the mountains in an outback/remote situation will need map and compass to follow a direct route to road, town, or help. Once you are down in the woods, it can be tough going or even 'LOST' without map and compass.
If you are hiking in unfamiliar territory, a map and compass should be standard gear IMO.
SGT Rock
05-12-2006, 08:01
One other thing I feel should be pointed out. It is totally free to hike the AT. But that said, it takes money to maintain it and protect it. Buying the maps gives you safety, a wealth of information, and the money goes directly to the ATC to help keep the trail open for years to come. Not a bad investment when you think of it that way.
Cookerhiker
05-12-2006, 08:19
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/11/AR2006051102047.html
Maps are useful everyday for those whose goal is to understand a bit about the trail and its environment, rather than simply to get from Georgia to Maine, or Maine to Georgia. Weary
the question isn't whether they are fun to have. it's whether they're necessary on the a.t.
SGT Rock
05-12-2006, 08:49
Again, just as necessary as any other safety equipment. Totally unnecessary unless you want them - until something happens. My guess is nothing has ever happened to you, hence your belief they are unnecessary.
LIhikers
05-12-2006, 09:11
A few summers back, as my wife and I were section hiking central PA, we were involved with the rescure of a rock climber who had fallen. The fallen climber's brother asked me to help with his brother and asked my wife to go to the observatory field, where he expected EMS to show up (yep, he called them on his cell phone), and to bring them back. The only problem was that none of knew where this observatory was. So my wife checked our map, which we always carry, and found where the field was. I don't know how much time was saved by having the map, but no matter how much or how little I'm sure the injured climber appreciated it.
I guess the moral of the story is that you only need a map when you can least be without it.
tlbj6142
05-12-2006, 09:21
I have hiked in the area- it is beautiful. Clear, well-marked trails in Mt. San Jacinto State Wilderness ParkMy wife and I hiked from the tram to the summit (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=3456&catid=searchresults&searchid=3184)last year, we lost the trail several times and there wasn't any snow on the ground (except for a couple of small patches). BTW, I had a map, compass and supplies.
On the way back down from the summit we were with a larger group of folks that were finishing up the desert to mtn trail (400'-10,800' in one day), and we still lost the trail.
Again, just as necessary as any other safety equipment. Totally unnecessary unless you want them - until something happens. My guess is nothing has ever happened to you, hence your belief they are unnecessary.
how many thousands of hikers on the a.t. don't carry a map? your guess would be that nothing's ever happened to them, either, hence their belief that they don't need a map. my guess is that since nothing's ever happened to all these thousands of hikers, the odds are pretty damn good that nothing ever will, hence a map isn't necessary.
how many thousands of hikers on the a.t. don't carry a map? your guess would be that nothing's ever happened to them, either, hence their belief that they don't need a map. my guess is that since nothing's ever happened to all these thousands of hikers, the odds are pretty damn good that nothing ever will, hence a map isn't necessary.
I dont even know where to start with this statement. The logic is so bad, it baffles me more than hikers that would want to enter with woods without a map.
how many thousands of hikers on the a.t. don't carry a map? your guess would be that nothing's ever happened to them, either, hence their belief that they don't need a map. my guess is that since nothing's ever happened to all these thousands of hikers, the odds are pretty damn good that nothing ever will, hence a map isn't necessary.
Gee mingo. I think LIhikers just gave a great example of something happening just a couple of posts back. What if YOU were the hurt hiker? How would you feel about carrying maps then?
I dont even know where to start with this statement. The logic is so bad, it baffles me more than hikers that would want to enter with woods without a map.
it's basic statistical analysis
Just Jeff
05-12-2006, 10:13
I've never been in a car accident where I needed a seatbelt. Basic statistical analysis says I don't need a seatbelt?
Or those air masks in an airplane. Based on stats, those are unnecessary, too. Until you need them.
I've never been in a car accident where I needed a seatbelt. Basic statistical analysis says I don't need a seatbelt?
Or those air masks in an airplane. Based on stats, those are unnecessary, too. Until you need them.
I don't think either of these examples is a good comparison to the AT.
Just Jeff
05-12-2006, 10:17
Why? Missing a vital piece of gear could have disastrous consequences, but only in the unlikely extreme situation. Sounds like it fits perfectly.
car seats???
seat belts???
is there a SEAT BELT law now on the A.T.????
where the heck has this discussion been flushed to?:D
Maps can easily be stored in your dogs pack!:D
Someone won the lottery today, it would be stupid not to play.:)
Maybe when I have as many AT miles as others on this thread I'll consider them a must. Until then I'll consider them a personal choice, along w/ water purification, leki poles and hammocks.:-?
I'd compare (and have in the past already) it to one needing a seatbelt in one's driveway as a more equal comparison. Or to needing seatbelts in bumper cars.
And personally, I think those things in planes only help people out as they're crashing... they don't help at all during the actual crash.
Not that I'm saying, at all, that maps won't help. They can, and will in some cases. It's a calculated risk to not carry them, but on the AT I feel that that risk is extremely, extremely low. I don't put on a helmet every time I walk out the door in winter just because there's a minute chance that an icicle could fall off one of the sky-scrapers here in NYC (it's happened in the past pretty much every year) and knock me in the head, because the risk is that low. Same with needing maps on the AT... the risk is low. Not that there's no risk, just that the risk is minimal.
On other trails, pretty much almost any other trail, the risk increases, and maps are much more likely to be a vital tool.
So yeah, it's a risk. And I think that the risk increases or decreases based on someones outdoor experience as well.
All that said, carrying maps gives out fun information, and that's why I carry them on the AT now. But when I was on the PCT, I carried them because I felt I had to, and then the fun was the side benefit, and not the main reason for carrying them.
Just Jeff
05-12-2006, 10:30
Seriously, leave those damn hammocks at home. Bring your lekis so those vicious bears (who aren't skeert of stray dogs anymore, btw) hear you coming, though.
Jaybird, it's called analogy. Try to keep up. ;p
it's basic statistical analysis
Nay! By your statistical analysis, no body ever wins a lottery. But of course, someone always does, probably daily. Just as someone is always getting lost and finds themselves wishing they hadn't been bizarre and failed to carry a map and compass.
Maps are always useful, often convenient, sometimes life-saving, and never bizarre.
Weary
hammock engineer
05-12-2006, 10:43
Carry a map, or don't carry one. As was said it is a personal choice. I personally carry a map and find them very useful.
Just don't ask someone else that has a map for help or directions if you become lost, need water, or need to get help. Just because you didn't want to bring them along.
Someone won the lottery today, it would be stupid not to play.:)
:-?
nean, you hit the nail on the head. that is exactly the flawed logic being employed by these boy scouts on this thread.
If one becomes lost, needs help, or would like to know where's the next water, ask! 99% of the people ON THE TRAIL:rolleyes: will be happy to help. Of course, there is always that 1%:( That said, don't ask me for food, water or gear unless: 1) you are almost dead 2) very cute :D
hammock engineer
05-12-2006, 11:07
I would end up helping anyone I came across that needed my help. I just think it is irresponsible not to take something that you 'might' need just because someone else will have one and help you out.
Some people may dissagree but to me that is like not carrying a shelter and expect others to make room in the shelter for you. Or not carrying food and asking others to give you food because they brought theirs.
you might need a bulletproof jacket, because of the criminals that have been hiding out on the AT recently. Better bring one of those. :p
Just kidding. I understand what you're saying, but I feel that there's always a line for this type of logic, and that the AT is on the sort side of that line. Not that I'm saying don't bring maps, just that the risk is much lower.
SGT Rock
05-12-2006, 11:15
nean, you hit the nail on the head. that is exactly the flawed logic being employed by these boy scouts on this thread.
Actually I am not a boy scout, nor do I think my logic is flawed. Since people actually do get lost and hurt on the AT (look through past articles here and elsewhere for evidence) and they do need to be found (I can think of at least two cases recently in the Smokies alone) then how can you insist that the logic is flawed simply based on your own anecdotal experience. That would be like someone who has never had a headache saying aspirin doesn't work.
Nevermind.
Food and shelter is pretty much a must. I strongly suggest a backpack as well. Once a map did come in handy in 96. I didn't have one on that trip, but someone in the crowd did. yea
Maps can be a great help just planning your day. When I wake up in the morning before I start my day I look at the map. I know what sort of terrain I will be hiking, where water sources will be and what to set for a goal for the next shelter or camping area. Most maps are tyvec and can be used to protect you in a hail storm as they are water and tear proof. Even if you never get lost or need to know where a road leads the map can be a great comfort on a thru or long distance hike.
who said my opinion is based on my own anecdotal experience? who says even in my own experience that i have never needed a map? actually, i have needed a map in the past, just not on the a.t. which is blazed and easy to follow. on sections of the a.t. with which i am not that familiar, i check before i leave on the location of camping and water sources or i might bring the data book. a map is unnecessary. you know that's true, sgt rock, stop your sniveling.
SGT Rock
05-12-2006, 11:35
you might need a bulletproof jacket, because of the criminals that have been hiding out on the AT recently. Better bring one of those. :p
Just kidding. I understand what you're saying, but I feel that there's always a line for this type of logic, and that the AT is on the sort side of that line. Not that I'm saying don't bring maps, just that the risk is much lower.
Well in the case of a bullet proof jacket, you have to decide if the extra effort is justifiable or does it cause more problems than it solves. In the case of something like that or a helmet to stop icicle's from hitting your head I would agree because of the remoteness of the chance and the extra issues involved in using those items. Just like wearing heavy hiking boots on the CHANCE you might need it to protect your ankles. Light running shoes have actually cut down on my personal foot injuries because instead of beating my feet up on the off chance I may need to protect them from sharp rocks or ankle twists from poor foot placement - the choice of how you hike is more important than what you protect yourself with. But I digress.
It is called the risk assessment process. It is used in aviation, nuclear power plants, the military, etc. Determine the risks, determine the chance each risk could actually happen, and then figure out how to reduce the risk without creating new ones. So think of this:
Getting hurt, non-catastrophic injury. Chance to happen: good (Daily). Impact on hike: negligible. Risk reduction measures - none other than being careful daily. This would include cuts, burns, light sprains, stomach bugs, etc.
Getting lost on the AT, mildly disoriented. Chance to happen: low. Impact on hike: negligible to moderate (loss of a few hours in wrong direction on trail). Risk reduction measure: use a map.
Getting lost on the AT, moderately disoriented. Chance to happen: very low. Impact on hike: moderate to serious (loss of hours to days from hike). Risk reduction measure: use a map.
Getting lost on the AT, badly disoriented. Chance to happen: remote. Impact on hike: serious to severe (loss of days from hike to hike ending). Risk reduction measure: use a map.
Getting hurt, moderate injury. Chance to happen: very low. Impact on hike: moderate to serious (loss of a few hours or days of hiking). Risk reduction measure - practice hygiene and avoid poorly fitting gear. Use a map if medical aid requires you to bail from the hike for assistance.
Getting hurt, sever injury. Chance to happen: remote. Impact on hike (loss of weeks from hike to hike ending). Risk reduction measures - don't drink and swim, don't play on rail-road tracks, don't play on cliffs when you have been drinking, etc. Other reduction measures are listed above including using a map to get off the trail quickly and seek help. It may also be very important to be able to geographically tell a rescue team (such as a helicopter) where to get such an injured person. One mile past this creek on the AT may not be any good, but if you can plot it on a map it is like gold.
OK, so how much does it hurt to bring a map? lets see, average for an AT map is 2.8 ounces. The space it takes up is less than that for a magazine. Seems like it is a realistic and achiveable safety measure that will not adversly impact a hike.
SGT Rock
05-12-2006, 11:39
who said my opinion is based on my own anecdotal experience? who says even in my own experience that i have never needed a map? actually, i have needed a map in the past, just not on the a.t. which is blazed and easy to follow. on sections of the a.t. with which i am not that familiar, i check before i leave on the location of camping and water sources or i might bring the data book. a map is unnecessary. you know that's true, sgt rock, stop your sniveling.
Actually you sound like you are sniveling. Seems like you have been backed into a logic corner and only want to argue. Why not just admit there are times and places, even on the AT, where you could need a map and not just wash over the entire thing as being safe as walking to the market?
Again, nevermind, I should stop. I obviously can't convince you. What I am trying to do however is not give advice to someone that could end up in them getting stuck into a jam because they are simply trying to be either macho or cheap.
i really don't think it matters much, sarge. hopefully, people aren't following our "advice" in this forum. certainly, i hope they aren't following mine. if it makes you feel better, i will concede that you could conceivably get yourself into a jam on the a.t. in which you might need a map. i once myself got a little lost trying to get back to the gregory bald trail from moore's spring. took a wrong turn somewhere. i doubt a map would have helped me anyway, though, because i couldn't see much of anything for the head-high thorn bushes.
docllamacoy
05-12-2006, 12:16
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/11/AR2006051102047.htmlThanks for posting that.
I'm sorry that this thread has turned into what it has. I'm sure the couple would agree that a map would have been a good idea. But in the end, they were rescued and some closure has been reached for Donovan's family and friends. Although I didn't know him, I've thought about him often and wondered what happened to him. We hiked the PCT in '02 and had spectacular weather and pretty good trail conditions so it was hard to imagine Fuller Ridge in a white-out. But I'm sure it was scary, and I'm sorry that Donovan was so alone at the end.
other uses for maps...you could chew it for possible calories or make a bland no sugar tea or add it to the old creel pot for swill...a map could also be used for a tournequet if processed into a neat paper oragami weave style rope...it can also serve as a bandage if you properly take the time to shred it into a nice compress. don't ferget the extra percentage of heat retaining factor of wrapping up in maps and staying warm or using edges of useless info so you can have kindling. chewing gum retention thingy for when the really leave no trace types want to do something with their old stale gum.
i did carry maps....mostly they were used by other folks who wanted to know the elevation profile to argue with wingffot.
they make a great gift as well....a guy lost all he had in hurricane katrina and i sent them all including the books from ATC to him for christmas so he could dream about hiking once he gets his life back. later i found my GSNF maps, you guessed it, i sent them too. kept wingfoot, i like to know where resupply is...my major realistic need on the AT, show me the hotdogs and krispi creams
the thing is, these people were not idiots....even donovan did exactly what he should have done....they found a water source and followed that ravine directly to some lower elevation so that their body warmth would be sufficient to maintain life as well as a simple sense of direction to civilization and were found because they did that....donovan woulda walked out had he not been injured along the way to his own rescue.....as they would have also had they not been found before they hiked out...maps actually were of no need for either of these 2 parties, their own experience in wilderness situations proved they were worthy of their adventures
Maps can easily be stored in your dogs pack!:D
I will be storing my gun in my dogs pack. If it gets found by the police, hey... it's not my dog. ;)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/11/AR2006051102047.html
As discussed in the above news article they come in handy to write ones last will and testimony. A map is useless unless you know how to use one, can see landmarks, triangulate positions, etc. When you are in the kind of area that Donovan was in the only thing you see is snow, trees and rocks. Also, a tarp is not the thing to have when in a winter blizzard. You should have an adequate shelter (tent) to stay in till the storm passes.
I will be storing my gun in my dogs pack. If it gets found by the police, hey... it's not my dog. ;)
That's actually a great idea! I think I'll get a dog too so I can store my gun, cell phone and MP3 player in it's pack. I'll call him 'Scape Goat and deny ownership until need something from his pack.
donovan woulda walked out had he not been injured along the way to his own rescue....
You have no idea as to whether he was injured, or not, or just how he died since they haven't found his body. Regardless, it's obviously he didn't do the right thing unless he was trying to commit suicide.
what is the deal with donovan? nobody knows? he just left his stuff and walked off into the snow?
You have no idea as to whether he was injured, or not, or just how he died since they haven't found his body. Regardless, it's obviously he didn't do the right thing unless he was trying to commit suicide.
From the post I read from the last people who saw Donovan, he was practicing lightweight hiking, ie: tennis shoes, tarp, shorts etc., you can get by on the AT, but in blizzard conditions and extreme low temps that the Sierra range can dish out, you're in a life threatening situation. I believe hypothermia is anyones problem when placed in the same situation.
From the post I read from the last people who saw Donovan, he was practicing lightweight hiking, ie: tennis shoes, tarp, shorts etc., you can get by on the AT, but in blizzard conditions and extreme low temps that the Sierra range can dish out, you're in a life threatening situation. I believe hypothermia is anyones problem when placed in the same situation.
Weren't you on the PCT last year? Did you meet him? Who did you meet and hike with last year?
SGT Rock
05-12-2006, 13:36
From the post I read from the last people who saw Donovan, he was practicing lightweight hiking, ie: tennis shoes, tarp, shorts etc., you can get by on the AT, but in blizzard conditions and extreme low temps that the Sierra range can dish out, you're in a life threatening situation. I believe hypothermia is anyones problem when placed in the same situation.
Great point Ridge. Although ultralight guru RJ may disagree with you, it is still probably sound advice to have more resiliant gear when you do go through somewhere like that, especially when there is the abnormally high snow levels hitting that year. In hindsite it was too little and pushing the limits too far.
I hope that this story is at lest some comfort to his family. I feel for them.
As discussed in the above news article they come in handy to write ones last will and testimony. A map is useless unless you know how to use one, can see landmarks, triangulate positions, etc. When you are in the kind of area that Donovan was in the only thing you see is snow, trees and rocks. Also, a tarp is not the thing to have when in a winter blizzard. You should have an adequate shelter (tent) to stay in till the storm passes.
If one uses a map daily one generally has a sense of where one is before a storm hits and a general idea of how best to escape should inclement weather arrive.
We don't know what happened to Donovan -- and won't until his body is found and someone posts all the messages he left on his maps and elsewhere. But I continue to suspect he was traveling too light for the likely conditions he would find on this particular trail. I've used a tarp in February in the Mahoosucs. I've never thought that decision was particularly wise.
I suspect a tarp wasn't wise for April and May at the much higher western elevations.
Weary
Frolicking Dinosaurs
05-12-2006, 13:41
While the AT is a very well worn and well marked trail, there are confusing spots. The opportunities to become "mildly disoriented" as SgtRock mentioned are numerous. If you get "mildly disoriented" once every hundred miles and lose only 30 extra minutes as a result of each because you are not carrying a map, this amounts to roughly 11.5 hours of hiking.
I wouldn't dream of hiking without maps, but my chance of being seriously injured is higher than most people's. Having been seriously injured and awaiting rescue once (not while hiking), I can attest to the assertion that several have made that anything that makes the rescue happen faster is vitally important. The longer a seriously injured person is without medical care, the greater the likelihood of severe shock, excessive blood loss, serious infection and / or other medical complications that are preventable.
Although ultralight guru RJ may disagree with you...
RJ... hmmm... Rick James?? http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b147/princessjazze90/im-rick-james-bitch.png
I didn't know he was into hiking...:p :banana
In hiking the PCT one must be prepared for FOUR season hiking/camping. Sunny California with its 12,000+ elevations can be a severe winter hiking experience, even in early June. Swollen creeks turn into torrents of water during runoff. The low humidity in CA helps, but with snow depths reaching double digits, it doesn't matter. I recommend the small Sony Walkman am/FM/weather band radio when out there.
..........If one uses a map daily one generally has a sense of where one is before a storm hits and a general idea of how best to escape should inclement weather arrive........Weary
I agree, always carry a map, just for the purpose of escaping, getting to lower elevations, town, etc. The problem comes when escape is not an option due to injury, distance, speed and direction of approaching storm. It all comes down to how well one is prepared to rough the storm out and knowing survival skills, if one is lost. The two lost hikers where able to survive because of the things left by Donovan, the question is why couldn't he have done the same? The answer probably will never be known, the only guess would be hypothermia, the leading cause of death in the outdoors.
What I don't get is, if the guy's last journal entry was from a year earlier, how was it that "the pack also contained wet socks and the fleece, which the couple dried in the sun?"
tlbj6142
05-12-2006, 14:29
RJ... hmmm... Rick James?Speaking of RJ, his sites have been down for well over a week. Any ideas why?
I miss his blog, aka online ego. It was always good for a early morning laugh.
What I don't get is, if the guy's last journal entry was from a year earlier, how was it that "the pack also contained wet socks and the fleece, which the couple dried in the sun?"
My guess....LEAKAGE..., the matches and ID where in a zip lock type waterproof container. Once the stuff gets wet in the bag it'll stay wet just from condensation inside the bag.
so is the assumption that this poor fella just kind of committed suicide? walked away from his stuff and went and froze to death somewhere?
hammock engineer
05-12-2006, 14:43
It all comes down to how well one is prepared to rough the storm out and knowing survival skills, if one is lost.
I have to agree with you on this one. In the end you are the only person you can count on to get you out of certain situations.
Maps certainly have there uses, but in his case there is still a missing piece of the puzzle that we may never know. However if the day hikes had them and known how to use them, they could have found their way back.
SGT Rock
05-12-2006, 14:52
My guess is although he should have been wearing some of those clothes, he may have been suffering from some of the later stages of hypothermia, one of which is the delusion you are hot. In that case he may have shed some of his clothing - thus speeding up his demise. I wish I had time to point out some articles about this stage, but apparently it isn't unusual for people at this point to do some fairly dangerous things like take off clothing, jump in the water, etc.
I was just sitting here thinking. For less than a $100 one can buy a "Yellow" Garmin Etrex (uses 2-AA batteries) learn how to use it, along with a compass and topo map and NEVER get lost. Just learning how to use the GPS with the map and compass will give you all kinds of map skills. Using the GPS for only coordinate gathering or waypoint setting/retrieving will make the batteries last a long time. I use one manly because of the time it saves when going cross-country or trying to find a place of interest. Always carry extra batteries. Don't ever count exclusively on the GPS to get your butt out, use it as a reference tool.
However if the day hikers had them...
That's actually a decent question... theoretically, the day hikers should have found Donovans guidebook and maps, so they possibly had the maps as well? Unless Donovan had them with him when he dissapeared.
And let me just say again that it's a shame that he went missing. But let me also say that if I have to go, that's exactly how I want to go.
I agree that there's still more questions than answers at this point regarding Donovan. And speculating is probably next to worthless.
but apparently it isn't unusual for people at this point to do some fairly dangerous things like take off clothing, jump in the water, etc.
you ought to snag this book they sell in the visitors center at sugarland titled "lost" by this ranger who did 30 years of search-and-rescue missions in the smokies. everybody who froze to death was found basically naked in the snow. when you're freezing to death, your skin feels like it's on fire. also, people who are lost for a while sometimes develop this weird fear of their rescuers and they run and hide from them in a panic. it's a good book.
hammock engineer
05-12-2006, 14:58
That's actually a decent question... theoretically, the day hikers should have found Donovans guidebook and maps, so they possibly had the maps as well? Unless Donovan had them with him when he dissapeared.
And let me just say again that it's a shame that he went missing. But let me also say that if I have to go, that's exactly how I want to go.
I agree that there's still more questions than answers at this point regarding Donovan. And speculating is probably next to worthless.
I did not think of it that way. They did have the maps as stated in the news articles. Maybe they were to tired to walk out. But the news stated they were only 30 miles or so from a major town. They could have walked out or to the trail.
Interesting angle.
In addition I have this warning about a GPS. "tracklogs" aka "breadcrumbs" will wrap, or start over, once you have traveled beyond the units capacity. In other words, heres what happened to me, and I am so glad I had a map and compass to get me out. First, I failed to mark a waypoint for my auto, big mistake. I walked into the woods for about 8 or so miles, decided to "trackback" to my auto. PROBLEM: I was able to trackback about half of the distance, the first half was gone from the GPS. It took me several hours LONGER to find my car than normal, I was familiar with the terrain and had the compass and map which help me locate roads. SOLUTION: Set waypoints, they do not disappear, you can also keep your eye on the tracklogs, and store them to the unit once reaching 99%, thus avoiding the initial problem I had.
SGT Rock
05-12-2006, 15:15
Yea Mingo, I read that one. Like the sad story about the boscout heading back from Icewater Spring Sheter only a few miles from the parking lot on the AT. Poor kid wandered off the AT and died of hypothermia. If I remember he started ditching his pack, then his clothing as he walked in a creek downstream.
SGT Rock
05-12-2006, 15:18
In addition I have this warning about a GPS. "tracklogs" aka "breadcrumbs" will wrap, or start over, once you have traveled beyond the units capacity. In other words, heres what happened to me, and I am so glad I had a map and compass to get me out. First, I failed to mark a waypoint for my auto, big mistake. I walked into the woods for about 8 or so miles, decided to "trackback" to my auto. PROBLEM: I was able to trackback about half of the distance, the first half was gone from the GPS. It took me several hours LONGER to find my car than normal, I was familiar with the terrain and had the compass and map which help me locate roads. SOLUTION: Set waypoints, they do not disappear, you can also keep your eye on the tracklogs, and store them to the unit once reaching 99%, thus avoiding the initial problem I had.
Great point. Even though I consider myself a fairly competent navigator with map and compass, for about 6 ounces extra a person could have a back up that would accuratly help them in a sever situation like that. Now that said, I don't think that level of navigation aid is needed on the AT.
hammock engineer
05-12-2006, 15:19
Sounds like an interesting book. Does anyone have a link to it, or is it only available at the park?
.....I don't think that level of navigation aid is needed on the AT.
I totally agree. On the AT, as I've said earlier, a "Trail Companion", compass, and map (just to be safe). If I had to pick one, I would probably go with the companion, if only to locate the AYCE joints.
Yea Mingo, I read that one. Like the sad story about the boscout heading back from Icewater Spring Sheter only a few miles from the parking lot on the AT. Poor kid wandered off the AT and died of hypothermia. If I remember he started ditching his pack, then his clothing as he walked in a creek downstream.
heartbreaking tales thoughout that book. the one about the poor guy who was trying to go to peck's in the snowstorm and walked right past it, the one about the poor guy who laid down and froze to death a couple hundred feet from tricorner. you know, those stories were all from the '60s and '70s, i think. seems like it happens less now than it did then. don't you think it's because of better clothing?
SGT Rock
05-12-2006, 16:05
I think it has a lot to do with clothing.
When I used to hike back in the 70s it was all cotton and blue jeans and that was probably the norm for most peopl. These days I think there is more knowledge out there and more good clothing options to keep people from getting wet and staying wet. In my experience staying dry is half the battle.
Other than the clothing, walking in the Smokies on the trail is basically the same. The shelters are in the same place and the markings are probably about the same as they were back then. Some of the other gear, like tents and sleeping bags, well they have gotten lighter but if I remember those situations the hikers had the right gear, they just got caught in a situation where they didn't use them in ways that would have saved them.
Speaking of RJ, his sites have been down for well over a week. Any ideas why?
I miss his blog, aka online ego. It was always good for a early morning laugh.
Ray and Jenny are hiking and kite sailing across the Polar Ice Cap. Read on his site how they trained for this trip. They conditioned themselves by dragging truck tires that were attached to a waist belt harness. Pretty good for a 60 year old man.
maybe i need to reread the article that was the original post....i could swear it said that he had injured himself....maybe he wrote something down in a journal or something that would say how he was injured....but i couldn't site that off the top of my head
Hook said he assumed his friend got hurt and froze to death in a snowstorm that blew on the last night he was seen alive.
ah yes i was speed reading again...will get me everytime
Sounds like an interesting book. Does anyone have a link to it, or is it only available at the park?
Lost!: A Ranger's Journal of Search and Rescue (Paperback)
by Ronald Schmidt (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=Ronald%20Schmidt&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/102-9012857-0560923), Dwight McCarter (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=Dwight%20McCarter&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/102-9012857-0560923), B. Archer (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=B.%20Archer&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/102-9012857-0560923) (Illustrator)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0964173417/qid=1147490422/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-9012857-0560923?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
Sounds really good!
hammock engineer
05-13-2006, 12:08
Lost!: A Ranger's Journal of Search and Rescue (Paperback)
by Ronald Schmidt (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=Ronald%20Schmidt&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/102-9012857-0560923), Dwight McCarter (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=Dwight%20McCarter&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/102-9012857-0560923), B. Archer (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=B.%20Archer&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/102-9012857-0560923) (Illustrator)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0964173417/qid=1147490422/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-9012857-0560923?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
Sounds really good!
Thanks. I ordered it for the collection.
Pacific Tortuga
05-13-2006, 12:29
Lost!: A Ranger's Journal of Search and Rescue (Paperback)
by Ronald Schmidt (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=Ronald%20Schmidt&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/102-9012857-0560923), Dwight McCarter (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=Dwight%20McCarter&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/102-9012857-0560923), B. Archer (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=B.%20Archer&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/102-9012857-0560923) (Illustrator)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0964173417/qid=1147490422/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-9012857-0560923?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
Sounds really good!
Try the "The Last Season" about the death of backcountry Ranger Randy Morgenson in the mid 90's up off the John Muir Trail.
Try the "The Last Season" about the death of backcountry Ranger Randy Morgenson in the mid 90's up off the John Muir Trail.
Thank you! I just ordered it from my library.
Lost! is proving to be harder to find (through my library) - I usually don't buy a book unless I'm going to use it for reference or lend it out...
So did they ever find Donovan's body?
Panzer
http://www.pe.com/localnews/sanbernardino/stories/PE_News_Local_P_hiker11.1d303194.html
tlbj6142
05-14-2006, 09:00
Ray and Jenny are hiking and kite sailing across the Polar Ice Cap. Read on his site how they trained for this trip. They conditioned themselves by dragging truck tires that were attached to a waist belt harness. Pretty good for a 60 year old man.I new they were leaving on a trip, but they typically leave their site up while they are gone.
Alligator
05-14-2006, 13:32
So did they ever find Donovan's body?
Panzer
It was mentioned that a search team would go out on Sat. I think they meant 5/13/06.
http://www.pe.com/localnews/sanbernardino/stories/PE_News_Local_P_hiker11.1d303194.html
link wants you to sign in to view the article
It was mentioned that a search team would go out on Sat. I think they meant 5/13/06.
It's odd that his body wasn't found next to his gear.
Panzer
Frolicking Dinosaurs
05-14-2006, 18:21
It's odd that his body wasn't found next to his gear. If we assume he was in the advanced stages of hypothermia since it was known to be cold and he did not have his cold weather clothing on, he could have easily wondered away from his camp and become disoriented or collapsed. My guess is that his remains will be found within a half mile or so of the campsite.
link wants you to sign in to view the article
email:
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email:
[email protected]
password:secrets
From the Article:
"The Riverside Mountain Rescue Unit plans to resume the search for Donovan at 7 a.m. Saturday, but they are waiting for federal firefighters to extinguish the couple's signal fire before they send searchers into the rugged terrain, according to Riverside County sheriff's officials in Hemet.
The quarter-acre fire continued to burn Wednesday despite being doused by a water-dropping helicopter."
That's one helluva signal fire. They must have lit the side of a mountain on fire! :eek:
Clark Fork
05-15-2006, 00:12
Search postponed until next week:
Search Postponed (http://www.nbc4.tv/news/9209623/detail.html?rss=la&psp=news)
Clark Fork
Did anyone hear if the search got started?
6/1/2006: Riverside County Sheriff's Office has rescheduled the delayed search for John Donovan's body for this weekend. Due to the hazardous and remote nature of the area of his camp, search teams will be flown in by the Sheriff's Aviation Unit. We are all very hopeful that the search will be successful and that this will bring closure to the issue for all involved.
See
http://www.rmru.org/
for updates
http://www.thedesertsun.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060604/UPDATE/606040367
I'm glad they got around to finding him, for his friends and family sake. I can't help but to think, if it were me, I'd prefer to stay there. Rest in peace JD.
Yea, I glad too that they finally found him. Lets hope this birngs closure for his family and friends.
Panzer
http://cbs2.com/topstories/local_story_155220742.html