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Cookerhiker
05-13-2006, 13:04
As far I can tell, this hasn't been discussed in any WB forums yet.

About 6 weeks ago I awoke with shooting pain down my right hip, thigh, and leg. After bearing it for 2 days, I checked into the emergency room, received shots and steroids, subsequently visited the ortho, got x-rays and an MRI. Bottom line: it's official - I've got a herniated disk in my lower back. Per the doc, the cause isn't a sudden event like bending the wrong way or even backpacking several hundred miles. Over time, disks can deteriorate. I suppose if I sat with better posture and hadn't jogged (which I don't do anymore) this may not have happened but who knows?

Surgery is a last resort. For now, I'm taking strong prescription-level Vitamin I. If this fails to reduce the inflamation, the next step is a shot. As the doc explained, the problem isn't the bulging disk itself but its impingement on the nerve. There's no pain now - the only sensation is numbness in my right little toe and the adjacent areas of the foot. I've done one 3-day backpack (50 miles in VT & NH about 2 weeks ago) and continue to work out on the stair climber and elliptical.

Surely I'm not the only WBer out there with this problem. I'd appreciate any insight, advice, experience from WBers on this, especially how it affected your hiking.

hammock engineer
05-13-2006, 13:27
I'll see your herniated disk, and raise you a ruptured disk. In 2000 I ruptured my L4/L5 disk and herniated one in the S region. I didn't see the signs early enough and go to the doctor. I had the surgery. If you do have it, get a good doctor. I was lucky with mine. I talked to other people who said they were never the same.

I will always have some problems with it, unfortunately you will too. Go to physical theropy. It is one of the best things you can do. Do the streches they give you daily. I try to do mine in the morning and in the evening. They make a big difference.

In terms of hiking, dropping the pack weight and using trekking poles are a big help. I would talk to your doctor about this. He might want you to take it easy for a while. I also switched to a hammock. It is the only way I can sleep while hiking. I do not think I could through without it.

Feel free to PM or email me with you want to. 6 years later I can do just about anything I could before. Once a year or 2 my back decides that it has been forgotten about and likes to remind me that it is still there. Usually after I do something stupid. Then I am laid out for a week or 2.

orangebug
05-13-2006, 14:36
Avoid any temptation to be bipedal. That is probably the only way to avoid risk of recurrence.

Disc herniation/extrusion is a chronic condition, caused by our tendency to walk upright. While many of us have had back pain related to overexertion, this is an entirely different matter, and will recur - perhaps in months, years or decades.

The best/first treatment is watchful waiting, just as you have done. If you had further pain or muscle weakness, other decisions would be made, including pain blocks, opiates, and possibly surgery. Depending on where you live, a neurosurgeon or orthopod will be involved in your care. If you are very lucky, this will go away - until the next event. You may have lost a reflex.

If you are unlucky, you may require surgery. Depending on the skills of your surgeon and your anatomy, you may be filleted or might have a microsurgery procedure performed. Success rates vary. I know more disappointed back surgery patients than happy ones.

I am a happy one. I had L4-5 blow on me while driving, suddenly finding it very hard to push on the accelerator pedal. After about 2 months of hobbling and taking opiates, I had a microsurgery procedure to remove the glob of disc (essentially the consistency of tooth paste) by suctioning - much like an arthroscopic procedure. The frame they draped me on looked pretty extreme. I was out of pain within two hours of anesthesia initiation, walking by 6 hours and home in 24 hours.

It was great to get out day hiking with in a week to regain strength. My personal Physical Therapy was to be talked into better lifting and posture. No driving for 2 weeks. "Imagine you are in a miniskirt and high heels, without skivies, Pick things up while maintaining some level of decency." I also lost 40 pounds.

Have fun, and be glad you have a painless paresthesia - for now.

Tim Rich
05-13-2006, 16:36
As far I can tell, this hasn't been discussed in any WB forums yet.

About 6 weeks ago I awoke with shooting pain down my right hip, thigh, and leg. After bearing it for 2 days, I checked into the emergency room, received shots and steroids, subsequently visited the ortho, got x-rays and an MRI. Bottom line: it's official - I've got a herniated disk in my lower back. Per the doc, the cause isn't a sudden event like bending the wrong way or even backpacking several hundred miles. Over time, disks can deteriorate. I suppose if I sat with better posture and hadn't jogged (which I don't do anymore) this may not have happened but who knows?

Surgery is a last resort. For now, I'm taking strong prescription-level Vitamin I. If this fails to reduce the inflamation, the next step is a shot. As the doc explained, the problem isn't the bulging disk itself but its impingement on the nerve. There's no pain now - the only sensation is numbness in my right little toe and the adjacent areas of the foot. I've done one 3-day backpack (50 miles in VT & NH about 2 weeks ago) and continue to work out on the stair climber and elliptical.

Surely I'm not the only WBer out there with this problem. I'd appreciate any insight, advice, experience from WBers on this, especially how it affected your hiking.

I blew the disc at L4-L5 eight years ago at 33, a cumulative result of being a basketball gym rat and abusing my body with football. Symptoms started slowly, with a numb big toe and aching hip. The numbness spread, the pain intensified and I started losing strength in my foot lift (raising your foot with your heel still on the floor). I had a microdiscectomy, with a small incision, a drilling through my vertebrae the size of a first grade pencil, and carving out the ruptured portion of the disc. My neurosurgeon, Tariq Javed, Kennestone Hospital, Marietta, GA, has my highest recommendation. Overnight in the hospital, two weeks off work. His counsel was to do anything I wanted to do except basketball, and to keep my pack weight down. There's about a 10% chance of rerupture, and my L5-S1 is deteriorated but not bulging or blown. I'm hoping the technology of artificial discs will improve so I'll not have a fusion.

Before surgery, I had sectioned a little more than half of the AT. The following seven years, I finished the northern half. Dr. Javed said that now that he's cut on it, I'll have a bad joint the rest of my life. It's stiff sometimes, hurts a little sometimes and, like my knees, is a nice indicator of when I'm dehydrated. Good hydration helps the comfort level significantly.

I wish you the best. If you do get two surgery recommendations, I'd have it. Waiting too long will affect how much the strength comes back, and numbness diminishes, in your leg.

Take Care,

Tim

Alligator
05-13-2006, 19:32
Hey Cookerhiker,

One more in the boat here. I herniated my disk, L5-S1 (not positive, there was some ambiguity between two disks), three years ago. I was laying in bed and sneezed tremendously with my head turned. That's all it took. I had some problems through the years with the back previously though nothing serious. There wasn't much to see on the MRI but my nuerologist suspected a small piece of disk pushing on the nerves. He suggested that it would reabsorb. I did two courses (3 doses each) of IV steroids which helped some. I had a lot of pain running down my leg (sciatica) for several months, the pain was only when seated.

Eventually, the pain stopped. I read a lot about others' cases and don't recommend surgery right away. It takes some time to heal these things. What finally calmed things down for me was Celebrex, 200mg. Recognize there is some controversary in terms of potential heart trouble with this drug, but it really worked well for me. I stopped taking it regularly after I think it was several weeks. Now I only take it if there is some soreness from lifting/yardwork. Maybe once or twice a month.

I went back to backpacking about 8 months later. My nuerologist gave me the all clear. He only suggested against horseback riding and downhill skiing. Not a big loss there. I keep my pack weight low, but still take heavy winter trips. In fact, I have not had any back problems while packing, and still sleep on the ground.

I seriously recommend getting off the Vitamin I it will kill your stomach. I was taking maximum dosage ibuprofen for weeks. I was in so much pain and my d***head regular doctor wouldn't prescribe pain medicine. [He's no longer my doctor.] It was so bad I had to have my wife help me lay down, I couldn't do it alone for the pain. I had to walk around with my hiking staff for about two weeks. My sympathies go out to you. I highly recommend the Celebrex bearing in mind the above caveat.

Blissful
05-13-2006, 21:22
My dh has that right now - got two injections at the spot at the pain clinic and it helped tremendously. Also went to PT for strengthening exercises, though he's not real good at following through on them.

He got an REI UL 45 pack and likes it very much. Much lighter than his old Lowes. No pain or numbness as far as I know.

Seeker
05-14-2006, 00:51
no one's mentioned the cervical manipulation technique of chiropractic... (it's where the doc only moves the atlas bone in your skull/neck. no cracking or popping of anything... just a gentle push on the base of your skull.) i was in an accident involving a horse (long story, but briefly, i was thrown across a barn and into a stall by a horse), knocked out for a few seconds, and kinked my neck badly... after a few weeks of pain, someone convinced me to see a chiropractor... he healed the neck, and a secondary effect was and end to some toe numbness i'd had for years, as well as a lot of the lower back pain i was simply chalking up to 'getting older'.... it was amazing... best of all, no drugs or surgery...

Alligator
05-14-2006, 13:39
I went to the chiropractor also Seeker while waiting to get an appt with the nuerologist [only two in the area and I couldn't tolerate more than 30 minutes in the car]. It helped some, but once he found out it was a herniated disc, he discontinued treatment.

Deb
05-14-2006, 20:28
In terms of hiking, dropping the pack weight and using trekking poles are a big help.

Does this mean that on our next winter hike you'll be leaving the frying pan home?
Because if pancakes aren't on the menu, I might not be able to make it...

SideWedge
05-14-2006, 20:39
I'll share a little info too....last August doing trail work I felt a pop and sharp pain when moving a rock, at the wonderful age of 18. Its part of the job to be stubborn about pain, so I took a few days off and then went back to school. A few months later I was getting such severe sciatic pain that I could no longer sit and lectures, and finally sucked it up and went and saw a doctor. She touched my back once and pinned it: herniated disk at L4-5. A CT scan confirmed that and a slighly bulging disk, and in January I finally start PT. That did little so I had a nerve block...which also proved futlie. I finally had diskectomy on March 9th (a little over 2 months ago), and felt great within 2 weeks. It was the first time in months I didn't have pains going from my back to my legs...AMAZING! I have a few inch incision, but absolutely no pain. And the best part...2 months post op I started my thru-hike of the Long Trail!!! Last week I did 60 miles and go back tomorrow to do 70 more. I've kept my pack weight low, as well as pretty small daily mileages, and with a zero or two every week I have no worries about not finishing. My advice is to work work work those abs! That way when you're carrying weight (or even just supporting your own body) your back has to do less work. And know when to push it, but also when to lay off. Its easier to take an easy day every now and then, rather than having to lay down for a week while you wait for sciatica to subside.

K0OPG
05-15-2006, 06:26
:o Been there, done that, twice. Once lower back (l-5/s-1) and then in the neck. after the back surgery, painfree in 2 weeks. wonderful! It took about a month and a half for the neck pain/surgery pain to go away.

I have had zeron problems witht he neck. However, the back was done in 98 and I am now having more problems. Almost dead nerve from lower back to little toe. I was having the steriod injections and man was it wonderful. If you can get the shots, do that first. surgery asx a last resort. as my doctor told me though, once you have it, you will always have it. surgery is a temporary fix. the disk is still herniated/suptured. The only close to permanent fix ia having the disks fused together.

I am still planning a thruhike for next year and hope that my back makes it. I need to lose many pounds and that would help the back.

Good luck and as someone said before, get a second opinion, and know all of your options.

hammock engineer
05-15-2006, 08:06
My surgery sounds a little different than everyone else's. On mine, a piece of my disc broke off. 2 different doctors and a PT told me of surgery was the only option. I lucked out and went to the same doctor one of my friends dad's uses for similiar operations.

Mine took a few months and some serious PT to get better. Not very much fun. But in the end, I can do almost anything. Still can't bring myself to bowl again.

Cookerhiker
05-15-2006, 09:41
Does this mean that on our next winter hike you'll be leaving the frying pan home?
Because if pancakes aren't on the menu, I might not be able to make it...

Uh, let's compromise. I'll carry the frying pan if you carry the other ingredients including the pure maple syrup. You can carry the oil - it's nice and light. I'll lug the spatula and blueberries.:D

Alligator
05-23-2006, 13:02
I don't think I want anyone hacking on my spinal column, but I thought this was an interesting article.
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/DrJohnson/story?id=1991281

I figured it would happen, but I didn't think it would be done for some time.

Cookerhiker
05-23-2006, 16:29
Thanks Gator for the link (don't think I'm a candidate at my age) and thanks to all who responded for your insight and experience. Something else I'm considering is a new techonology which simulates space weightlessness without surgery or medication to pull the bulging disk material back off the nerve. It's described here http://www.marylandspineanddisccenter.com/HOME.htm
and I may give it a try. Right now, the only physical reminder of my problem is continued numbness in a small area of my right foot around my little toe.

But first things first; tomorrow's my colonoscopy. Ah the joys and pleasures of advancing age!:o

hammock engineer
05-23-2006, 17:34
But first things first; tomorrow's my colonoscopy. Ah the joys and pleasures of advancing age!:o

I had one of those also. Can't say that was very much fun.

Sorcerer
05-24-2006, 07:25
I had one of these too, but mine was from a buildup of trauma from moving and working on a new house.

The best treatment available, according to my doctor, was to walk. So, I ended up hiking 450 miles with it last year and felt like a new man when I got home!

Of course, 2 days after I returned I had a car wreck and was rear-ended and I ended up with a pinched nerve in my back that was almost as bad as the bulging disk that pinched a nerve. Finally, it subsided and I hiked about 100 miles so far this year and I'm feeling much better!

Good luck with that back thing. Time seems to heal most of those and walking/stretching seems to help more than most anything.

TIDE-HSV
05-27-2006, 23:47
This is worth adding. My problem is not the herniation or rupture, but all my disks are deteriorated - lots of athletic injuries - lifelong runner, basketball player, etc. It started in the lumbar area, and it is now from tip to tail. I've lost 3.5" in height in the last 15 years. Despite that, my main symptom is lower back pain - no neuro symptoms. I had a full spinal x-ray done three weeks ago, along with a bone density scan (backbone very dense). The spinal ortho told me that he had a lot of patients on total disability with better looking spines than mine. Back pathology credentials established, I've started something new. Around three months ago, I bought an inversion table (hang upside down). I do ten minutes in the morning and evening and it's made an enormous difference. I'm more flexible and pain has decreased. I've regained about an inch in height (I'm sure it'd disappear if I quit), and I've regained around 20 yds on my drive (yep, still golf, somehow). Just one experience...

Fahrenheit
05-28-2006, 00:06
I screwed up my back in september playing flag football. After a month or so of pain I went to the doc. He said it was mucsular and would heal. By January I was worse, I wasn't able to run, hike or even sit for my morning lectures. I went back to the doc and he sent me to physical therapy. Physical therapy made a big difference in my mobility and kept me strong enough that I don't keep re-hurting it. Unfortunately after 4 months of therapy with me still not able to run or sit for more than an hour I got sent to a different doc. He thinks I either have a bulging disc or stress fracture. I'm getting an MRI next week. Good times.

LULU
06-15-2006, 11:11
Hi,
I have this problem for years and I try everything from 7 pain killer a day, patch,cortizone shots, nerve block (2),massage,physical therapy almost kill me, hothing work. The pain is unreal!!!
Good luck!
E-mail after you are MRI to see how you are!

Lulu

LULU
06-15-2006, 11:22
The doctor say not bipedal exercies you right!!


Avoid any temptation to be bipedal. That is probably the only way to avoid risk of recurrence.

Disc herniation/extrusion is a chronic condition, caused by our tendency to walk upright. While many of us have had back pain related to overexertion, this is an entirely different matter, and will recur - perhaps in months, years or decades.

The best/first treatment is watchful waiting, just as you have done. If you had further pain or muscle weakness, other decisions would be made, including pain blocks, opiates, and possibly surgery. Depending on where you live, a neurosurgeon or orthopod will be involved in your care. If you are very lucky, this will go away - until the next event. You may have lost a reflex.

If you are unlucky, you may require surgery. Depending on the skills of your surgeon and your anatomy, you may be filleted or might have a microsurgery procedure performed. Success rates vary. I know more disappointed back surgery patients than happy ones.

I am a happy one. I had L4-5 blow on me while driving, suddenly finding it very hard to push on the accelerator pedal. After about 2 months of hobbling and taking opiates, I had a microsurgery procedure to remove the glob of disc (essentially the consistency of tooth paste) by suctioning - much like an arthroscopic procedure. The frame they draped me on looked pretty extreme. I was out of pain within two hours of anesthesia initiation, walking by 6 hours and home in 24 hours.

It was great to get out day hiking with in a week to regain strength. My personal Physical Therapy was to be talked into better lifting and posture. No driving for 2 weeks. "Imagine you are in a miniskirt and high heels, without skivies, Pick things up while maintaining some level of decency." I also lost 40 pounds.

Have fun, and be glad you have a painless paresthesia - for now.

LULU
06-15-2006, 11:30
Hi Orangebud,
yes the doctor talk me nothing bypedal! The exercises help but not that much I was taking 6 painkiller a day and I was addicted to the pills so I stop taking those. But I has to come back to the doctor because the pain is unreal.
Thank you from you advice.

Lulu

LULU
06-15-2006, 12:20
Hi fahrenheit,
I WAS ON PHYSICAL THERAPHY AND THEY ALMOST KILL ME!!!

lULU

neighbor dave
06-15-2006, 12:35
:-? count me in.
happened 3+ weeks ago, never sought medical advice,took vitamin i almost back to normal. 24 days of pain. still wonderin' what life is like without pain.
screwed up my back 2 winters ago shovelin' could barely stand up without pain, 11 days later i started and completed a thru-hike of the A.T.:D
screw the doctors!! tough it out like a cowboy!!! (OUCH)

Fahrenheit
06-15-2006, 13:15
So I got my MRI results back. No slipped discs. Instead I have sacralization of L5 with pseudoarthrosis. I'm in the medical field I didn't have any clue what that meant. My current understanding is that I have a congenital defect that usually shows up in the late 20's to early 30's. It was earlier for me probably because I'm so active. Anyway it means the the lowest lumbar vertebrae is attached to the sacrum in a way that it shouldn't be. Plus the sacrum itself never fused the way it should have so my muscles have to do extra work to keep it in line. Basically it adds up to having a lot of chronic back pain. They are sending me to a spine specialist and I'm worried they are going to recommend surgery. I'm about to start the busiest year of my life so far and major surgery simply won't fit into it.

orangebug
06-16-2006, 09:27
Hi Orangebud,
yes the doctor talk me nothing bypedal! The exercises help but not that much I was taking 6 painkiller a day and I was addicted to the pills so I stop taking those. But I has to come back to the doctor because the pain is unreal.
Thank you from you advice.

LuluI sort of doubt the doctor told you "nothing bipedal." This would mean the doc wants you to start crawling everywhere - on all fours. Now with the right person that could be interesting.....

When you are either distracted by pain or by opiates, you can easily misunderstand docs and others.

Cookerhiker
06-16-2006, 19:33
So I got my MRI results back. No slipped discs. Instead I have sacralization of L5 with pseudoarthrosis. I'm in the medical field I didn't have any clue what that meant. My current understanding is that I have a congenital defect that usually shows up in the late 20's to early 30's. It was earlier for me probably because I'm so active. Anyway it means the the lowest lumbar vertebrae is attached to the sacrum in a way that it shouldn't be. Plus the sacrum itself never fused the way it should have so my muscles have to do extra work to keep it in line. Basically it adds up to having a lot of chronic back pain. They are sending me to a spine specialist and I'm worried they are going to recommend surgery. I'm about to start the busiest year of my life so far and major surgery simply won't fit into it.

My sympathies. At least in my case, the problem didn't surface until well into my 50s and a herniated disc isn't as forboding as what you describe. Make sure you get at least one other opinion.

July 30 (after I return from hiking the England Lake District but before I start the John Muir Trail), I'm undergoing spinal decompression. This consists of 5 treatments a week for 4 weeks followed by therapy which I'll do on my JMT hike. This is not surgery - there's no drugs or shots. Instead, the machine will simulate space weightlessness which has th effect of opening the spine to allow moisture & nutrients in which in turn retracts the bulging disc back where it belongs. It's not common but there are practicioners around the country. For more info, search Google with the words spinal + decompression + DRX9000

neighbor dave
07-28-2006, 07:56
July 30 (after I return from hiking the England Lake District but before I start the John Muir Trail), I'm undergoing spinal decompression. This consists of 5 treatments a week for 4 weeks followed by therapy which I'll do on my JMT hike. This is not surgery - there's no drugs or shots. Instead, the machine will simulate space weightlessness which has th effect of opening the spine to allow moisture & nutrients in which in turn retracts the bulging disc back where it belongs. It's not common but there are practicioners around the country. For more info, search Google with the words spinal + decompression + DRX9000

hey cookerhiker, how's the treatment goin'???:sun

wakapak
07-28-2006, 10:26
Hey Cookerhiker, I'm interested to hear how the treatment is going also!! I'm in school to be a chiropractor, actually don't have much left and am an intern in the clinic now serving and adjusting people! I have heard of the decompression devices, so it'd be interesting to hear how it is doing for you...good for you not having surgery or shots yet, those are definitly last resort!

firefly
07-29-2006, 09:02
I have 4 herniated discs in my upper back (head on collision with a drunk driver) My injury is very different from yours but what works for me may work for you. I swim as much as possible. This has built up the muscles in my back. I go as light as possible when I backpack. I have tried hammocks..they help alot but I have to carry extra stuff to stay warm. I now use an insulated air mattress..this works GREAT. What got me back on the trail was ditching the pack hipbelt. This makes a huge difference when you have a bad back.

hammock engineer
07-29-2006, 13:58
I have 4 herniated discs in my upper back (head on collision with a drunk driver) My injury is very different from yours but what works for me may work for you. I swim as much as possible. This has built up the muscles in my back. I go as light as possible when I backpack. I have tried hammocks..they help alot but I have to carry extra stuff to stay warm. I now use an insulated air mattress..this works GREAT. What got me back on the trail was ditching the pack hipbelt. This makes a huge difference when you have a bad back.

Thats interesting that you say ditching the hip belt helps you. Mine were in my lower back years ago. I think the hip belt is what saves me. Goes to show that everyone is a little different. I think that when it comes to your back there is no cookie cutter solution.

firefly
07-30-2006, 09:26
excellent point and I should have clarified that better. I could only ditch the hipbelt when I got under 20 lbs. I do know people with lower back problems that have to use a hipbelt to be able to hike at all. Something else you can play with when you have a bad back is your backpack. I live near an REI and also have a great outfitter I do business with (Neels Gap). I have tried on about every backpack they stock until I found what was comfortable. I wound up with what nobody thought would work at all (including me)..a frameless backpack...you just never really know what will help but keep an open mind and try out everything and maybe you can stay on the trail.

Cookerhiker
07-30-2006, 19:40
hey cookerhiker, how's the treatment goin'???:sun

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 224705" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125>wakapak</TD><TD class=alt2>Hey Cookerhiker, I'm interested to hear how the treatment is going also!! I'm in school to be a chiropractor, actually don't have much left and am an intern in the clinic now serving and adjusting people! I have heard of the decompression devices, so it'd be interesting to hear how it is doing for you...good for you not having surgery or shots yet, those are definitly last resort!</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Thanks for asking. Just returned a few days ago from Wales and the English Lake District where I hiked about 40 miles with no adverse effects yet. I start my disk treatment tomorrow - 5 days a week for 4 weeks except the 4th week, I'm leaving Friday flying to California to hike the John Muir Trail. I'll post the results on this forum.

firefly
07-30-2006, 20:35
That is FABULOUS!!!! Good luck to you :)

neighbor dave
08-12-2006, 19:18
:-? well after re-injuring my back,with an m.r.i. telling me it's a herniated disc and toughing it out for as long as i could i just purchased one of these...
http://www.teeterhangups.com/products/f7000.html
for 300 buckaroos brand new from a shop in massachusetts. feels good to decompress,now i hope it's just a matter of time.:sun

TIDE-HSV
08-12-2006, 21:03
I guess I've got to chime in. My problem is not just one or two disks, it's my whole spine, compressed, from top to bottom. T-3, T-4 and T-5 are "wedged." That means no disk material left at all - bone on bone. The two tactics I've used to get back into packing have been mentioned above. I bought an insulated air mattress and also an Inversion Table. I had lost around 3" in height in the last 15 years or so. Using the table, I've gained about an inch back, and, according to my wife, who sees me move, a great deal of flexibility. Also, my lower back pain has been reduced to about 10% of what it was...

orangebug
08-12-2006, 22:22
The problem with herniated discs - you just can't get the toothpaste back into the tube when it squirts out. There are many strategies to reduce pain via positioning, but none are foolproof. There is a great deal of placebo effect in every treatment suggested in the acute phase of low back pain from disc disease.

hopefulhiker
08-13-2006, 07:12
I had a bulging disc several years ago. It lasted almost a year. I sympathize with you. There are exercises you can do and the good news is that 80% of these cases heal themselves. This was part of the reason that I chose an external frame pack for the thru last year. I did not have any issues with my back...

neighbor dave
08-13-2006, 08:56
The problem with herniated discs - you just can't get the toothpaste back into the tube when it squirts out. There are many strategies to reduce pain via positioning, but none are foolproof. There is a great deal of placebo effect in every treatment suggested in the acute phase of low back pain from disc disease.

:-? i'm an optimist, here's a little test for you to perform if you like; gently squeeze a tube of toothpaste just enough to where the paste comes out about 1/4",or even 3/8" of an inch, now decompress the tube and watch the toothpaste go back in, if it doesn't brush yer teef and try again!!!:D

T-BACK
08-13-2006, 09:04
Surely I'm not the only WBer out there with this problem. I'd appreciate any insight, advice, experience from WBers on this, especially how it affected your hiking.[/quote]

When I was 26 I blew out L-4 through S-1 lifting some equipment at work. After trying shots and PT I gave in and had the surgery. The results were lackluster at best. I did not have as much pain after the surgery but that's about all I can say. Two years ago (at 37) a woman turned right on red in my path and I t-boned her at 40mph. I had the full battery of tests including MRI and Milo. and they showed nothing. I was in severe pain constantly and finally just wanted to die. I went to a chiroprator and after an adjustment I was unable to move without a walker again and then by dragging my right leg. The leg slowly got better but I wasn't able to trust my balance. I work as a surgical assistant and so I went to see a neurosurgeon I had worked with in the past. He agreeed (after several weeks of begging on my part) to do exploratory surgery. He found that my old fusions had seperated and that L-3,L-4 had also herniated. He took great care and decompressed all the nerves in that area and re-enforced everything with titanium. I am now pain free most of the time and am able to do almost anything I want.
I guess what I'm trying to say is find a doctor you can trust but also pay attention to what your body is telling you. No one else knows what you are going through but you. If I hadn't had the surgery (which everyone including my doctor tried to talk me out of) I probably would have commited suicide. It was the right choice for me. I knew there was something terribly wrong even though the tests said otherwise. YMMV. Also don't discount the effects of chronic pain. It changed my whole personality, caused me to "comfort eat" my way to almost 300 pounds (eating was the only enjoyment I had in life at that time and the only thing I had control of), and very nearly cost me my marriage and many of my friends.
Let us know how you progress with your treatment.

Good Luck,

Brian
T-BACK

orangebug
08-13-2006, 10:49
:-? i'm an optimist, here's a little test for you to perform if you like; gently squeeze a tube of toothpaste just enough to where the paste comes out about 1/4",or even 3/8" of an inch, now decompress the tube and watch the toothpaste go back in, if it doesn't brush yer teef and try again!!!:D
I am a realist. Take that tube of tooth paste, place it between 2 round bricks with a small channel for tender nerve roots to pass thru, wrap it all in pounds of muscle, connective tissue and fat.

Now try to put the toothpaste back into the tube. BTW, disc jelly is the consistency of toothpaste.

You are likely to either move the lump of jelly to a less tender spot, more likely to wait for the lump to dry out and reabsorb, or most likely - get temporary relief until nature and gravity does it to you again.

neighbor dave
08-13-2006, 17:57
I am a realist. Take that tube of tooth paste, place it between 2 round bricks with a small channel for tender nerve roots to pass thru, wrap it all in pounds of muscle, connective tissue and fat.

Now try to put the toothpaste back into the tube. BTW, disc jelly is the consistency of toothpaste.

You are likely to either move the lump of jelly to a less tender spot, more likely to wait for the lump to dry out and reabsorb, or most likely - get temporary relief until nature and gravity does it to you again.

i don't see decopression in yer recipe,what up??
p.s. i'm already feelin' better after bein' on the table 4 times. hiked 6 miles with no pain! sorry you got yerself all cut up for nuffin!:p :p :p

orangebug
08-13-2006, 21:02
Not cut up for nothing. I have the ability to stand on my right foot again.

The point is not that surgery is superior (as it is not), but that there is a great deal of placebo response in every treatment for low back pain. It is a chronic remitting condition, regardless of treatment choice.

By the way, try to get "decompression" to put toothpaste in that tube we were discussing.

hammock engineer
08-13-2006, 21:13
Surgery for me was the only option. The MRI that I had showed a piece broken off. Not a lot, but enough to go in and get out. My surgery went great for me, but I hear a lot of stories about ones that did not.

In the end I think that once you hurt your back it is always going to hurt. You just have to decide how you are going to deal with it. I saw those tables before. Something about them that I just don't trust yet.

Cookerhiker
02-01-2007, 22:37
The problem with herniated discs - you just can't get the toothpaste back into the tube when it squirts out. ...

Sorry I took so long to get back to everyone on this. I moved (to Western MD) after New Years and am still settling in. I appreciate all the advice and stories.

I began with Orangebug's quote above because notwithstanding his point, my procedure was a smashing success and was tantamount to pulling the toothpaste back into the tube. The before and after MRIs are strikingly different with the formerly obvious bulge now dissipated.

This treatment, which I described in earlier posts, is a hydration of the discs brought about by being stretched on a machine called the DRX9000 described on the following website http://www.axiomworldwide.com/DRX9000.aspx. Immediately after completion, I flew to CA and hiked 175 miles of the John Muir Trail. No ill effects. Returning home, I went to the doctor twice a week for physical therapy and heat massage on the lower back for about 6 weeks until the "after" MRI.

Continuing physical therapy - about an hour of various stretching exercises - is important per the doc so I'll be doing this the rest of my life. I don't particularly like it - after my aerobic workouts, I don't feel like extensive stretching and it's tempting to skip it since I feel no further back or sciatica pain. But I recognize the value and we all know that stretching/flexibility exercises are good.

Anyway for those of you with continued herniated disc and related problems, you may want to consider this treatment. My doc was a chiropractor but from what I've read, some orthopedic surgeons are also using this now.

And my health insurance covered part of the costs.

hammock engineer
02-02-2007, 00:46
Glad to see it worked out. My doc used the jelly donut and filling analogy. I'll have to remember the tooth paste one.

Cookerhiker, you are exactly right on the stretching. I try to at least once a day. At some point you will probibly have a setback. Just go with it and take it easy.

On a side note I am just getting back to normal after a small setback. It usually takes a week or so of rest. For me they only happen when I forget that my back is really in charge and I'm just here for the ride.

Blissful
02-02-2007, 13:02
But I recognize the value and we all know that stretching/flexibility exercises are good.


Have link for them or what stretches do you perform?

Cookerhiker
02-03-2007, 12:32
Have link for them or what stretches do you perform?

Sorry, no link. My doc gave me 20 exercises described on paper with sketches. Don't know if he got them from a website or not. BTW, here's the link to his practice: http://www.marylandspineanddisccenter.com/NONSURGICAL.htm

Briefly stated, here are some of them:

Knee-to-chest
Pelvic tilt
Hip rolling (on your back with knees bent up, twist your knees to the floor one direction while rotating your upper body the opposite direction.
Pelvic lift
On your back with knees bent up, bring one leg up and stretch straight up while keeping your pelvis on the floor.
Curl ups - like crunches with knees bent and hands in front. Keep your pelvis on the floor while lifting.
Cat & camel - on all 4s, let your gut sag then bring it up to point of arching your back without moving hands or feet.
Tail wagging - on all 4s, sway your hip to your shoulder withoug moving your shoulder
Hip extension - on all 4s, extent your leg back straight and opposite hand forward

cannonball
02-03-2007, 13:00
I started out with a sharp stinging pain in my right buttocks a few weeks before Christmas.
The past 3 weeks I have been flat on my back because of the pain. I have been shot twicwe with predisone and am on my second round of oral dosages of predisone. PT nearly killed me and made my back hurt as bad as my leg.
MRI revealed 2 herniated disc. Definately praying for a quick surgery Just so I can get out of bed.

Lyle
02-03-2007, 14:44
My story is from way back in 1985. I'm a paramedic. Was on a call when the intense pain set in. Couldn't even help unload the patient at the hospital. Making a long story short:
- Ruptured L5-S1
- 3 months bed rest, waiting for it to resolve on it's own with meds
- 3 months continued bed rest while being tested and awaiting results and scheduleing for a Chymopapain (SP?) injection.
- Received the injection, about a month later resumed work, but confined to dispatch for one year
- Received clearance to work the road again. Only limitations are no jumping from higher than 2 feet, no skiing, no sky diving. Backpacking absolutely no problem as long as I'm careful while lifting

I have had substantially fewer problems with my back (none other than a very occasional muscle strain) for 20 years now - knock on wood!

Unfortunately, I've been told that this treatment is no longer used due to inconsistant results verses risk of the injection itself. Glad it was an option for me - saved me from surgery.

Lyle
02-03-2007, 14:55
Just re-read your original post. Regarding the numbness. I have a small area, about the size of a quarter, on the outside of my right foot. The Doc told me that that would most likely be permanent. So far he is right, but this is nothing compared to what others sometimes go through. I can only imagine that treatment will continue to get better over the coming years.

orangebug
02-03-2007, 17:15
There is a great deal of placebo response, but even more response from "tincture of time" Six weeks since Christmas isn't much time. The main reason to seek surgery is for motor nerve injury, although "painful numbness" is a miserable experience. I know, this oxymoron happened to me.

I have had a recurrence (surgery 2004) on opposite side, and have treated with limited exercise, Naprosyn, stretching and watchful waiting. I had no pain while hiking after Christmas, but the car ride home brought that back. I should have stopped at least every hour to walk. It is nearly resolved, but attempts at jogging and treadmills bring a bit of a twinge back into the left hip. Massage has helped. But time and weight loss appear to be my best treatment.

Regardless of the advice and testamonials on this list, one needs to get advice from at least one real world doctor who has done a real world neurological and functional exam on you. This is still more important than all of the MRI's and xrays. Remember that back pain/disc disease is a chronic recurring problem for bipeds.

Pay your ante and take your chances.

CaseyB
02-03-2007, 18:15
Check this out:

http://www.spineonline.com/

I had it done last Friday, my pain is virtually gone.

Cookerhiker
02-04-2007, 14:39
Just re-read your original post. Regarding the numbness. I have a small area, about the size of a quarter, on the outside of my right foot. The Doc told me that that would most likely be permanent. So far he is right, but this is nothing compared to what others sometimes go through. I can only imagine that treatment will continue to get better over the coming years.

My lingering numbness is in the exact same spot as yours. Most of the talk I've heard including my doc says it will dissipate over time but your post confirms my hunches that it may be permanent. I can live with it.

Dharma
06-08-2007, 00:49
I have no particular event that herniated my L5-S1. I woke up with a twinge of pain in my butt one day, it later turned to sciatica, and then I found I had a herniated disc.

I did work in EMS (amblance) at the time and that does put a lot of strain on the back from picking up 300 lb people on the stretcher.

I had 3 months bed rest waiting for it to resolve on it's own with meds and acupuncture.
Near the end of month #3 I got a cortisone shot and that helped a lot with the pain and allowed me to start doing exercises and stretches.

I work now doing photography and am still on leave from the ambulance and my volunteer fire department.

My neurosurgeon wants to give it a lot of time before he does anything else.
I have full sensation in my left leg and my pain increases more due to stress than using my body.

It's been four months now and I will get flare ups once a week and it usually goes away in a day. The trick for me is going out and walking in the woods, using my inversion table for traction, doing my exercises and stretches, keeping well hydrated, and keeping correct posture, esp. when driving.

A positive attitude goes a long way. This shall pass, I know it. Like on the trail, it will all work out.



- Received clearance to work the road again. Only limitations are no jumping from higher than 2 feet, no skiing, no sky diving. Backpacking absolutely no problem as long as I'm careful while lifting

oldbear
06-08-2007, 12:38
For what it's worth ; I really messed up my back as a result of trauma and after years of on again off again pain I found a neurosurgeon who suggested that I try yoga before we further explored the surgical option. In my particular case it did work. Buy a tape/cd called AM Yoga w/Rodney Yee and see if that helps.
I'm one of those old guys that still loves my Kelty Tioga for carrying loads and now the frame gets to serve as a back brace also.
Good luck