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goatmilk
05-22-2006, 18:42
Hello,

I've been LuRkIng for a while and want to thank everyone for the great advice. I plan on SOBO July 3rd and this website is priceless. I have an honest question though. I purchased the "Thru-hikers companion" and the "data book" for 2006. It seems as though the "companion" has the same information as the "databook" with added maps and information. Should I bring both books or will the companion be enough? Should I invest in "wingfoot's" book?

Thanks for your time. :rolleyes:

Larry
(goatmilk)

Barrel Roll
05-22-2006, 18:53
You can get away with making photocopies or ripping out each relevant section from the Companion and the Data Book. If those are the only two books, I would grab both because the Companion has info about all the shelters and towns on the trail, invaluable information, while the Data Book has locations of water, which is really important, especially down south if you're going SOBO because it gets very dry late in the season.

I went with the Companion and Data Book but ditched it halfway through my hike and constantly stole glances at my group's copy of Wingfoot. It's got everything the Companion and Data Book have so I felt it was a pretty easy resource to use. If I did it again i'd just grab the Wingfoot.

hammock engineer
05-22-2006, 19:29
Is wingfoot's guide written in wouth to north format? I have the handbook and like it, but I do not want to read in reverse for 6 months.

Skidsteer
05-22-2006, 19:38
Is wingfoot's guide written in wouth to north format? I have the handbook and like it, but I do not want to read in reverse for 6 months.

Yes. South to North format with reverse mileages in the margin.

Sparkplug
05-22-2006, 21:18
We carried only Wingfoot's guide last year, and found most others did too. We had ordered the Companion to bring along as well, but in the end decided that Wingfoot's guide just seemed more practical with the landmarks, water sources, etc that it offered. Not that it was always 100% correct, but hey, what is?! :-) I would recommend Wingfoot, definitely. If you're going N->S, his book lists mileage going both ways, but you'll have to start at the end and read forward...
Good luck!
-Sparkplug

goatmilk
05-22-2006, 22:01
Thanks for all the great replies. I'm going to invest in Wingfoots book. I like the fact that it contains landmarks. Thanks for the clarification on the orientation of the book. At least I'll have three books to use for planning and I'll bring wingfoot's.

goatmilk :)

Claudia
05-23-2006, 00:34
You can get the Companion on line at http://www.aldha.org/companyn/
Print out what you need when you need it.

fiddlehead
05-25-2006, 23:21
By only carrying the data book, you will have a more spontaneous trip and be more apt to discover things that other hikers don't get the chance to because they follow the book (companion and wingfoot's) .
If you are a follower, then get all the books. (keep in mind that the companion is from a non-profit organization.
If you would like some surprises along the way, just carry the data book. It will suffice.

fiddlehead
05-25-2006, 23:22
Does anybody remember the old "Philosphers Guide"?

goatmilk
05-26-2006, 17:23
By only carrying the data book, you will have a more spontaneous trip and be more apt to discover things that other hikers don't get the chance to because they follow the book (companion and wingfoot's) .

i like your idea of a more spontaneous trip. however, without the resources I may miss important landmarks or interesting tid bits.


If you are a follower, then get all the books. (keep in mind that the companion is from a non-profit organization.
If you would like some surprises along the way, just carry the data book. It will suffice.

Aren't we all followers (white, blue, yellow blazes)? Maybe just different degrees. I don't want every step planned but I do need to know the location of potable water, shelters for emergency, and towns. The databook is good for this. However, it is also nice to get a general sense of the area in terms of interesting landmarks located in the vacinity. The companion may be good for this.

you make a good point and I will use the books for planning. I'm going to bring the databook and wingfoot's book and if I decide to ditch wingfoot then that will get dropped in a hiker box or sent home.

Sly
05-26-2006, 18:31
In the new expanded format, the 2006 ALDHA Thru-hikers Companion has basically the same exact data (mileages, water, roads, campsites, side trails, landmarks, shelters ect) as Wingfoot's book and the Databook, along with town info and trail tidbits.

Sly
05-26-2006, 18:42
I'd also like to point out the Companion has mileages both to and from Springer and Katahdin, same as WF's. The trail, shelter and town info for both books read south to north. Neither are guidebooks, per se, with actual trail descriptions for navigating.

the goat
05-26-2006, 19:22
love your name:D

TJ aka Teej
05-26-2006, 19:25
Does anybody remember the old "Philosphers Guide"?
I still have my '89 & '90 books. Remember the "Beer Drinker's and Ice Cream Eater's guide to the A.T."?
Important to remember:
The Companion is written by hikers who visit the service providers and hike their trail sections each year. The proceeds from the Companion support the Appalachian Trail and the A.T.C.
Interesting tid-bit time: The Companion has had a spiral binding because that's what hikers originally asked for. The shape fit nicely into the outside pocket on your external frame pack, too. Times change: The '07 Companion will return in book form, because that's what hikers have now asked for.

weary
05-26-2006, 20:51
You can get away with making photocopies or ripping out each relevant section from the Companion and the Data Book. If those are the only two books, I would grab both because the Companion has info about all the shelters and towns on the trail, invaluable information, while the Data Book has locations of water, which is really important, especially down south if you're going SOBO because it gets very dry late in the season.

I went with the Companion and Data Book but ditched it halfway through my hike and constantly stole glances at my group's copy of Wingfoot. It's got everything the Companion and Data Book have so I felt it was a pretty easy resource to use. If I did it again i'd just grab the Wingfoot.

As would I.

Weary

Hangman
05-26-2006, 21:45
Hello all i was wondering where to get wingfoots guide. does anyone have a web site that could help? thanks

Jack Tarlin
05-26-2006, 22:04
Try www.trailplace.com and you can order it direct. Also, any good Outfitter near the Trail will carry it.

Sly
05-27-2006, 08:11
I went with the Companion and Data Book but ditched it halfway through my hike and constantly stole glances at my group's copy of Wingfoot. It's got everything the Companion and Data Book have so I felt it was a pretty easy resource to use. If I did it again i'd just grab the Wingfoot.


As would I.

Weary

Like leading a horse to water, you can tell them that the new ALDHA Companion is virtually identical to WF's, that the procedes go to the trail, that it's free online, but you can't make them...

weary
05-27-2006, 10:55
Like leading a horse to water, you can tell them that the new ALDHA Companion is virtually identical to WF's, that the procedes go to the trail, that it's free online, but you can't make them...
My comment was based on the books I have seen, which as yet doesn't include the latest Companion. I'll download the Companion one of these days.

However, Wingfoot over the years has done good work on behalf of the trail, also. I thought his position on the Saddleback controversy of a few years ago was far more responsible than was the position of the Appalachian Trail Conference. The conference entered the battle by essentially surrendering the responsible trail position.

Had the conference, and trail forums and lists followed the lead of Wingfoot the trail over Saddleback would be protected now. I still get a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach when I remember how the good of the trail was sacrificed to petty jealousies.

Weary

fiddlehead
05-28-2006, 21:34
Didn't Wingfoot sue the ATC for big money? I heard that somewhere but don't know if it's true.
Wingfoot helped me out on my hike in '95 but then he kicked me off of his website forum because i didn't agree with him.

weary
05-28-2006, 23:35
Didn't Wingfoot sue the ATC for big money? .....
No. That claim has been made by Wingfoot enemies for years. But as near as I can tell, he didn't sue ATC for any money -- big or small. I understand there was an exchange of letters between Wingfoot and ATC in which Wingfoot said the conference was improperly using material he had developed.

I haven't seen an explanation by either side of what came of the exchange, but suddenly Wingfoot was allowed to use the databook information in his thru hikers guide, which makes me think that settled the issue.

Weary

wolf
05-29-2006, 19:36
how do i get wingfoots book

latte
05-29-2006, 19:43
I tried my first section hike from Mass to Maine in 1991. I bought the Philosopher's Guide and it was GREAT! I think that was the last year that it was published. I still have my worn out copy in my bookcase. Only made it to Hanover NH, but I'll never forget it. Still section hiking every year!

Pacific Tortuga
05-29-2006, 19:44
how do i get wingfoots book

See post #17 here

fiddlehead
05-29-2006, 21:54
I'd love to get a copy of the "Philosophers Guide" if anyone who has one would want to sell it. I had one one year but lost it somewhere as i didn't have any idea that it would dissapper. I remember it only showing really important stuff like : where to buy beer on Sunday or in the Bible Belt. or how to hitch a ride and important things like that. Not the prices of the 10 different hostels/hotels in each town, etc. like these books have turned into now.
If there's 10 choices for hotels, i'm more apt to try to find number 11. Just my style I guess

TJ aka Teej
05-29-2006, 22:25
Had the conference, and trail forums and lists followed the lead of Wingfoot the trail over Saddleback would be protected now. I still get a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach when I remember how the good of the trail was sacrificed to petty jealousies.

I really doubt the owner of Saddleback, Sen. Olympia Snowe, Sen. Sue Collins, and the local community were "jealous" of some guy from away sending hundreds of form letter emails with his website URL attached. By the time I used Wingy's bot his emails were being blocked by Snowe and Collins. The issue was always going to be decided locally. And after the 'land rights' people injected themselves into the argument all other input from outsiders became resented, and ignored.

TJ aka Teej
05-29-2006, 22:39
Didn't Wingfoot sue the ATC for big money? I heard that somewhere but don't know if it's true.
Wingfoot helped me out on my hike in '95 but then he kicked me off of his website forum because i didn't agree with him.

Yes, he did. He got several thousand, if I recollect. Wingy made no secret of at the time. When the ATC decided they wanted a better guide than the one Wingy was producing (the WF produced guides were mostly just recycled Philosopher's Guide content with updated motel prices) Wingy sued claiming he "owned" the material in the guidebook. Since the majority of content, format, and style was unchanged since the the last ATC published PG, most folks figured Wingy had no case. I suppose the ATC gave him the money just to go away. The settlement was widely discussed in ALDHA circles, and the ATC asked us to step in and produce the Companion which we did much to Wingy's annoyance. That's probably why he's never been to a Gathering and doesn't allow any mention of ALDHA of his site. Over on the original AT email list, the at-l, Weary was given details about it one of the last times Weary claimed it never happened. The at-l is archived Weary - if that'll help you remember.

SGT Rock
05-30-2006, 03:49
Just looked at the new Companion, it is getting closer to what I want. In fact so close I think I'll pay for a copy (the money is for good uses) and then just download the electronic version and make a few slight modifications. I think ALDHA is going in the right direction.

rambunny
05-30-2006, 08:55
We've heard rumor that Wingfoot is getting out of the book biz. Kinda suspected he's been trying to for years-in 2000 some people got their copy they ordered for their hike-as their hike ended,as co-editor for the companion-i must say all of Mrs. Gorp's efforts in new charts ect. Has really spiffed it up. However i agree and have always carried my whole data book-(had people write addresses in the margins) and pages ripped out of the companion. However i know someone who hiked from Ga-Va without knowing about any publications and did just fine. HYOH

Skyline
05-30-2006, 09:31
If you already have the Handbook, Companion, and Data Book--you have more info in your possession than most. Add the official section guides and maps and you are a walking encyclopedia. Each book has some data and listings the others don't, tho they all share much of the same info.

I photocopied the relevant parts of each book for every year of my section hike, pasted them on a sheet of paper, and made a copy of each--often expanding to a second side. Tried to get what I thought would be a day's hike on each sheet, and included the map profile as well (usually had to use the copier's "zoom" feature to reduce the profile). I also carried the actual fold-out map just to get a sense of what I was looking at off-trail, plus side-trail connectors, etc.

This worked out very well and also saved weight. I wound up only carrying seven sheets of paper--containing maximum info--inside a ziploc for a week's worth of hiking, plus the map.

I suppose this could be done for a thru-hike as well as a section hike. It's a lot of work but planning is part of the fun.

goatmilk
05-30-2006, 17:19
Wingfoot helped me out on my hike in '95 but then he kicked me off of his website forum because i didn't agree with him.

Yeah, I was kicked off the "TrailPlace" forum when I posted with the word "campanian" instead of "companion" in order to avoid the word block. Tough competition. Wingfoot's book is published by the Center for Appalachian Trail Studies. Is this a nonprofit?

:)

MOWGLI
05-30-2006, 17:22
Wingfoot's book is published by the Center for Appalachian Trail Studies. Is this a nonprofit?

:)

No, it isn't.

Nightwalker
05-30-2006, 23:31
Wingfoot's book is published by the Center for Appalachian Trail Studies. Is this a nonprofit?

:)
Not on purpose...

TJ aka Teej
05-31-2006, 07:44
Wingfoot's book is published by the Center for Appalachian Trail Studies. Is this a nonprofit?

The "Center for Appalachian Trail Studies" is just what Wingfoot calls himself, there is no "Center" and no "studies". As a person who has donated to "The Center" I know for a fact it does not have non-profit tax status. As far as "for-profit", I can't imagine he makes very much soliciting donations and selling the guide.

Spock
05-31-2006, 18:35
I think the suit went in the other direction - regarding WF's use of ATC mileage figures.

Footslogger
05-31-2006, 18:40
I think the suit went in the other direction - regarding WF's use of ATC mileage figures.
============================
Meaning what ?? ...the mileages figures are going to be pulled from the ThruHikers Handbook ??

'Slogger

SGT Rock
06-01-2006, 04:01
Well since you usually need a bandanna, you could get the mapdanna which has the databook info and then just get the companion and only carry the sections compliment your mapdanna info. Just a thought.

Me, I just took the info from the companion on-line version and edited it a little in word. Made a more convienient format for how I like a trail guide and got it down to 20 sheets of 8.5"x11" paper @ 3.2 ounces. I can split up the pages to go with the maps that I carry so you don't need the entire book, and later I plan to take BJs re-supply article and include the text in my custom guide.

BTW if you do something like this, buy the Companion, I figure for $12 the data is worth it. No sense in ripping folks off.

MOWGLI
06-01-2006, 07:57
I think the suit went in the other direction - regarding WF's use of ATC mileage figures.


You "think," or you know? And if you don't know, why would you comment? That's called gossip. And that goes for everyone. Not just the hiker I quoted.

Erro
06-22-2006, 11:54
I don't know which guide book is better - I got both to compare. It's a close call.

However I will say this: (Take it with a grain of salt as I'm just a newbie....)

I first stumbled on Wingfoot's site trailplace.com while starting my research for my hike this year. I was a little taken aback by his "my way or the highway attitude." Seems like he's all about HHOH - Hike His Own Hike vs. HYOH. I agree, in principle, with most of the stuff he says - I just don't like the way he says it. More importantly, the fact that he doesn't allow people to post other forum URLs (like whiteblaze.net) or book names on his site really irks me. I'm sure he's a nice enough guy and has done a lot for the AT. I just don't like his attitude toward people who have different opinions.

This post would NEVER survive on his site. Though there are no personal attacks, foul language or what have you. All I'm doing is voicing my opinion. On trailplace.com this post would be deleted, and I would be banned.

Thank God for WhiteBlaze.

(Sound of Erro stepping off soap box.)

Stonewall
06-22-2006, 12:49
Considering I am a newbie to hiking and wanting to do a thru hike I tend to listen to a lot of the comments posted by other new hikers beacuse either i haven't found the info yet haven't thought of it yet or they beat me too it.

After listening to what people have said here about Wingfoots and the Companion (I believe that is correct) I will not get Wingfoots guide regardless of how good it is. I know everyone has there own view but for someone who is a "profit company" to sue a "non-profit" which inturn helps the Trail that he hikes and writes about is assidine. Now I don't know exactly what or if he did sue them and all I am going by is what I am reading but for him to delete or ban people from his site all because the menton other products than his own. Well #*%$ him the horse he rides on.

Sorry for the rant hope I didn't offend anyone.

Butch Cassidy
06-22-2006, 13:30
This debate will never end. I do not agree with Wingfoot's politics or the way he treats people on his site. I have met and love Mrs. Gorp . Mrs Gorp did such wonderful trail magic for me as I crossed VT. last year I could never repay her. Everyone should buy her book, the companion has the best town maps and with the new format all of the necessary info. That being said, My son (The Sundance Kid) and I bought both the Handbook and Companion last week at REI in Atlanta to compare the two. My opinion is for my use I will use the handbook. All the info in one place, still easier to use and weighs 2 oz less than the companion. I carried the handbook on my 2005 thru and many times hikers with the companion would ask to borrow it? I will carry it again in 07. The Sundance Kid on the other hand will have no part of it and will carry the Companion. Both are great guides and we will have the best of both. Buy Both and compare, what's 30 bucks? Butch Cassidy Ga/Me 07:cool:

Pacific Tortuga
06-22-2006, 17:05
[quote=Chopper Dave]This debate will never end. I do not agree with Wingfoot's politics or the way he treats people on his site.7:cool:[/quote

The debate will end and sooner than you think.Winfoots politics :-? lets see Anti Bush ,Cheney, Rumsfeld,the war and 2,500 lost lives of our U.S. armed service's ,port giveaways, Mexico border free for all's,deficit 20,ooo,ooo,ooo,ooo and counting ,outing CIA agent, oil profits that Microsoft would be envy of,hike all the white blazes for your 2,000 mile patch any way you want,and protect the integity of the AT. Spin it any way you want but the US citizens are not respected (every where as i feel we were and should be) and The U.S is going in 'EVERY' wrong direction acording to most Americans.People that are offended by Wingfoot in most cases sound like they are just in feeling that way and I'd be pissed too if in the 90's I bought a guide book for my hike and it came late or not at all. I love our country as I'm sure you and your son do and I'd be honored to meet and hike with you all next March. If the norh and south can agree on the longest cease fire on record at Antietam we can disagree and still find common ground, G.L. 07

Butch Cassidy
06-23-2006, 22:59
Just when I though no one cared. I was just trying to review two fine trail guides not debate Bush. I am sure if we meet on the trail we will have a fine time. The trail seems to transcend differences of all kinds. I think that is one of the things I love most about it. See Ya up trail, Butch:cool:

Sly
06-24-2006, 00:22
The debate will end and sooner than you think.
There is no debate, Bush is a ....

http://www.msgr.ca/msgr-humour/bush-posturtle.jpg

Sundancekid
06-25-2006, 22:45
Mr Pacific Tortuga,
As a United States Marine I am not afraid to call you on your post. My brothers (Military Personel) and I are currently fighting in a land to keep you and yours safe. Yes I hate the fact that some of the bravest people i know die everyday in Iraq and Afghanistan, but we do it for you. We have lost 2,500 lives since march 20th 2003, but how many civilians in the United States have been killed by terrorists? My commander and chief made a very hard decision by sending us into Iraq, but he has protected our country by giving the terrorist's a target not in America. As far as your Mexican border free for all comment I can only assume that you are 100% Native American. The last time I checked we were all immigrants to the new world except for Native Americans. My commander and chief has recently sent national guard units to watch our borders in the southwest but the main reason I believe is because it is very easy for Jihadi'st terrorist to infiltrate from the southwest. If the threat of terrorist infiltration was not as large as it is then I am sure that we would not be sending our troops to the border because our country is one big melting pot which desires the " huddled masses yearning to breathe free". I also ask you to please elaborate on your statement that the US citizen is not respected. My brothers and I have not bled for a people that is not respected. The greatest respect shown is that of a person willing to die so that you can live your life. At least in my own opinion. On a different note I am also a history buff and I have to question your statement about the longest standing cease fire in effect. Yes there may have been a cease fire between the north and the south at Antietam but more fighting occured in the same year. What about the cease fire between us (The United States Of America) and North Korea? If I am not mistaken we have been in a state of cease fire for the last 50+ years. Please dont lead our fellow Americans astray because history is what defines us and many of my fellow Belleau's ( Belleau Wood WW1) did not return from the Korean conflict. My father also posted that I would not have anything to do with Mr Wingfoot's databook, and he is correct. Mr Wingfoot is a brother in arms who has forgotten why we defend our fellow citizens. I dont care about 2 ounces as opposed to the fact that I would be supporting a man who has turned his back on my brothers. "ours is not to wonder why ours is but to do or die." Mr Tortuga I dont know anything about you but I have to say that if you are not pleased with the way in which your country is operated then please run for public office, or join the military, or join the volunteer fire department in your area. Just do something to help your fellow man. In closing Mr Tortuga I have to say that if you want to kiss a certain thru hikers butt then you should go to trailplace.com and post his propaganda there, if you want to talk trail or god forbid gear then post here. My father's post was not about Mr Wingfoot but about the validity of the databook versus the companion.
The Sundance Kid Ga-ME 07

weary
06-26-2006, 00:11
Presidents are not infallible. To believe otherwise is not patriotism, but delusion, reflecting a fundamental misunderstanding of democratic government.

Sundancekid
06-26-2006, 00:23
Mr Weary,
I understand that presidents are not infallible but someone has to make the decision's. As an infantry squad leader from the Iraqi campaign I can state from experience that sometimes hard decisions have to be made. I hope that the American people can question there government and presidential decisions. That means that my brothers and I have done our jobs.
The Sundance Kid GA-ME 07

Stonewall
06-26-2006, 00:42
So, anyway to change the subject back to Wingfoot vs Companion. I went to EMS today and asked for the trail guide the guy handed me the wingfoot I asked if they carried the Companion. He was like oh yeah. I explained my reasoning for choosing the companion vs wingfoot. and he agreed with me :) Hopefully more Companions will be sold now vs the Wingfoot.

TJ aka Teej
06-26-2006, 08:03
"ours is not to wonder why ours is but to do or die."

There's more to that quote:

The diary of Lance Corporal R.W. Kirke, a Brit fighting in France;

Friday 9th October 1914. My cold is no better and my left eye is still on strike. It is a fine morning but the night are bitter cold. We understand that we entrain today for Belgium. I wonder what is the idea. Still, ours is not to wonder why, ours is but to do or die, as someone said who knows nothing about it.

weary
06-26-2006, 18:50
.... After listening to what people have said here about Wingfoots and the Companion (I believe that is correct) I will not get Wingfoots guide regardless of how good it is. I know everyone has there own view but for someone who is a "profit company" to sue a "non-profit" which inturn helps the Trail that he hikes and writes about is assidine. Now I don't know exactly what or if he did sue them and all I am going by is what I am reading but for him to delete or ban people from his site all because the menton other products than his own. Well #*%$ him the horse he rides on.
Sorry for the rant hope I didn't offend anyone.
Let me remind everyone that Wingfoot, more than everyone else combined, provided the impetus for protecting Saddleback a few years back. We could have done even more if more people had joined the fight.

But the bulk of the 4,000 letters and emails came out of Trailplace. Without them the ski area would have towers and lifts on the edge of a narrow trail corridor today. Had more people responded to Wingfoot's pleas, this partial victory could have been a total victory. Had more responded, taxpayers could have avoided a $4 million overpayment, and won even greater protection for the trail.

Regardless of Wingfoot's ideosyncracies, and he has plenty, I'll always be grateful for his supurb dedication to the trail and his successful efforts to protect at least some of the Saddleback ridgeline.

BTW. though it has been posted scores of times over the years, I have yet to see any documentation of Wingfoot's alleged suit against the ATC. People should either post a reference to the court documents or stop making the claim.

Weary

TJ aka Teej
06-26-2006, 19:53
Let me remind everyone...

About the only thing you have right in your tall tale is that many emails and letters were sent. You leave out things like: the ATC backing of one proposal and Wingy backing another helped the locals, the proposal backed by Wingy failed, the Land Right's folk's well funded vigorous and vocal interjection, the Saddleback owner's own huge postcard/email/newspaper campaign, the overwhelming local objection to people from away involving themselves, Wingy's alteration of emails sent thru his letterbot to promote only his personal viewpoint, Senators Snowe and Collins steadfast position that the jobs of their constituents come before all else, and the simple fact that emails sent from one guy's email address (all letterbot emails had trailplace.com tags) signed by out of staters have to hold very little weight with local politicians compared to the opinion of local voters.

Back on topic: Please support the Appalachian Trail and the Appalchian Trail Conservancy by purchasing the Data Book and the Companion.

weary
06-27-2006, 00:34
....Back on topic: Please support the Appalachian Trail and the Appalchian Trail Conservancy by purchasing the Data Book and the Companion.
Oh. I always do -- except when the conservancy is wrong -- as it was on Saddleback.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-27-2006, 00:44
Yikes. Thank goodness the ATC publication and Wingfoot's publications aren't our only options.

wacbzz
06-27-2006, 08:44
Did Wingfoot sue?


Yes, he did. He got several thousand, if I recollect. Wingy made no secret of at the time.

If he did...


BTW. though it has been posted scores of times over the years, I have yet to see any documentation of Wingfoot's alleged suit against the ATC. People should either post a reference to the court documents or stop making the claim.

So which is it? He did or he didn't? Anyway, none of that really matters IMHO simply because I would buy the book that has the best info (maps, side trails, etc) and it seems like Wingfoot has really done the research. Though some may not agree with the policies of WalMart, I don't see anyone writing in this forum that we shouldn't buy from them. Heck, many have written that the Swissgear hiking poles are a great value for $10 each. Step outside the box people. If you can get past the political debate, HYOH with the book that helps you out the best:sun