View Full Version : Pack Cover vs. Pack Liner - HELP!
I'm a bit confused. Getting ready for an extended AT hike. Got my rain gear. Got my pack with "water proof" zippers. Got my Sil-Nylon saks inside the pack holding all my gear.
I understand that most hiking packs are only water resistent, not water proof. I've read here at Whiteblaze where many recommend a quality pack cover for rainy weather. Still others say to use a trash compactor bag as a pack liner (not cover).
If I use a pack liner (on the inside) will my pack be soaked? If I use a pack cover (on the outside) will it get torn up over time? Do I need a pack cover or liner if all the individual things in my pack are protected by ZipLoc or Sil-Nylon?
I can't let my poor fleece sleeping bag get wet!
What's the best option for me? I have a Gregory Z Pack and Mountain Hardware rain gear (top and pants...)
Thanks in advance!
-Erro
titanium_hiker
06-15-2006, 00:15
bomb-proof anything that just can't get wet- put your sleeping bag in several plastic/waterproof bags just to make sure.
if your pack has lots of outside pockets, go with a pack cover. If you pack stuff "loose" in the bag, get a liner.
I like to go with both, but I'm not an ultralighter, but cmon, how heavy is a trash bag anyway?
You can use a pack cover for a gear cover, a sink, extra water holder for camp, etc etc. Also emergency rain cover for running around in camp. (if you had a poncho tarp for example) A true multi-use item- of course it can only do one at a time... :)
titanium_hiker
MedicineMan
06-15-2006, 00:17
or pick one of the two you mentioned...i tend toward the pack liner setup and keep stuff on the outside that could use a washing every now and then..the stuff inside the pack liner i only access when setting up the house, thats usually the stuff that matters to be dry...pack covers are usually all or nothing and cover the outside side pockets that usually have stuff you will want to get to during the days hike
I used HD trash bags for the sleeping bag, I do like the idea of the trash compactor bags though. I zip locked most everything else, and they were easily replaced if torn. The zips also help to organize stuff. I would use an emergency poncho as a pack cover if it was going to rain hard and for a long time. For outerwear I use Marmot Pre-Cip jacket and pants. I remember some hikers with full pack covers complaining about how hot, even in rain, they made their back feel.
Rifleman
06-15-2006, 00:21
[quote]
"If I use a pack liner (on the inside) will my pack be soaked? If I use a pack cover (on the outside) will it get torn up over time? Do I need a pack cover or liner if all the individual things in my pack are protected by ZipLoc or Sil-Nylon?
I can't let my poor fleece sleeping bag get wet!
What's the best option for me? I have a Gregory Z Pack and Mountain Hardware rain gear (top and pants...)
Thanks in advance!"
-Erro
[response)
If you use just a pack liner(s) yes your pack will get wet & heavy. If you use a pack cover it is highly likely that it will wear over time. Use both. Most folks who are cost conscious use a garbage bag (39-44 gal. for the outside & two 30 gal. on the inside). Inexpensive & easily replaceable.
Don't use a fleece sleeping bag. Go with a high quality down or synthetic.
In regards to rain gear check out Dri-ducks (Gossamer Gear).:-?
R.
Right about the sleeping bag, use a high quality synthetic bag, example is the NF Cat's Meow or equal. I thought you erred when you mentioned fleece, I figured you where talking about down. I really didn't know they made fleece sleeping bags, sounds like cotton to me, which could be very dangerous.
Just Jeff
06-15-2006, 01:54
I use silnylon stuff sacks for my clothes and quilts, but they're not seamsealed. I put these in a compactor bag pack liner. Then I use a pack cover b/c I have 5 mesh pockets on my pack that I like to keep relatively dry.
The pack cover is blaze orange, so I use it even when it's not raining if it's hunting season. And I usually carry an extra compactor bag in case I need to make a poncho, VB vest, groundsheet, etc.
River Runner
06-15-2006, 03:14
I use good waterproof stuff sacks for the items that are important to keep dry (sleeping bag, clothing, camera, etc.). My food goes in Zip-locks inside a Silnylon water resistant bag (but will probably switch to a "water-proof"). I also carry a pack cover. Trash bag liners are okay, but I find they tend to get small holes punched in them when packing and unpacking, so they don't truly stay "waterproof".
Footslogger
06-15-2006, 08:37
My suggestion is to consider taking both. A plastic liner bag will allow you to set your pack down without moisture getting through. The pack cover gives you protection from the rain.
'Slogger
Right about the sleeping bag, use a high quality synthetic bag, example is the NF Cat's Meow or equal. I thought you erred when you mentioned fleece, I figured you where talking about down. I really didn't know they made fleece sleeping bags, sounds like cotton to me, which could be very dangerous.
Yep - sorry. I meant "down" - not fleece.
I use a contractors bag to line my pack....reg. trash bag for the bottom compartment......and a pack cover. People made fun of my quanity of plastic(I have a zip-lock think too!) But my stuff NEVER got wet!!
I like to go with both, but I'm not an ultralighter, but cmon, how heavy is a trash bag anyway? titanium_hiker
1.5 oz...
i use dropstoppers for rain gear. i think they're the same thing, pretty much, as dri-ducks, but i don't know for sure. jacket is 7oz, pants are 4.5, in my size anyway (large/XL)
i'd use both on a long trip. most of mine are short (2-4 overnights), so my garbage bag liner holds up fine. i also have only 1 outside pocket, and nothing in it needs to be kept dry (compass, aqua mira drops, DEET, headnet, other odds and ends.) everything else is inside.
fivefour
06-15-2006, 11:52
i keep my clothing, hammock and sleeping bag in silnyl stuff sacks and use a pack cover. so far so good. the pack liner idea seems a bit odd. if you can keep the whole pack dry including the outside as well, why not go that route ?
I use a pack cover. I think its a PITA to try and pack my pack with a liner of any sort. I double bag my down bag with plastic grocery sacks.
I got caught in a torential rainstorm a couple of months ago and everything stayed very dry.
I remember some hikers with full pack covers complaining about how hot, even in rain, they made their back feel.
They were probably using an internal frame pack....Another good reason to use an external frame pack!
They were probably using an internal frame pack....Another good reason to use an external frame pack! True, the vast majority of packs are internal. I once considered one of those fancy lightweight carbon fiber externals, I just never checked any further. I do know you can carry a lot more on an external, My first packs where external but I switched somewhere along the line.
My suggestion is to consider taking both. A plastic liner bag will allow you to set your pack down without moisture getting through. The pack cover gives you protection from the rain.
'Slogger
I gotta agree with the "Both!" sentiment. A wet pack is a heavy pack and takes forever to dry. A pack cover doesn't necessarily gaurantee you a completely dry pack all the time, but comes close. Stuff your sleeping bag in a trash or compactor bag. It's cheap and light insurance against a wet cold night's sleep...maybe several nights if you can't find a sunny spot to dry out.
MedicineMan
06-15-2006, 22:44
yes depending on the material the pack is made from...some pack cloth will 'hold' water, and when you look at the total square foot of material that can add up to sig. weight. syl-nyl packs cant/wont wet out or soak up the water and spectra will allow the water to pass through like a sieve...i'm guessing that older types of cordura that has lost its urethane coating will soak up sig. amounts of water weight....drain holes in the bottom are a good idea
titanium_hiker
06-15-2006, 23:09
drain holes in the bottom are a good idea
hmm- first we had ultralighters drilling holes in their toothbrushes, now packs!? :D
claim back a few fractions of an ounce... :banana
titanium_hiker
MedicineMan
06-16-2006, 00:20
most outside pockets already have drain holes....
Thanks all for the advice!
I think I'll use a pack liner and cover to start - then see how it goes. I can always ditch one or the other later.
-Erro
LostInSpace
06-16-2006, 00:42
yes depending on the material the pack is made from...some pack cloth will 'hold' water ...
i'm guessing that older types of cordura that has lost its urethane coating will soak up sig. amounts of water weight....
My old Kelty Tioga is made of uncoated cordura, so I am sure it will soak up a lot of water. The longest bout it ever had with rain was two weeks of constant rain in GSMNP, but the pack cover kept everything dry. Of course, my poncho also covered the pack in addition to the pack cover.
Just Jeff
06-16-2006, 03:49
My pack came with grommetted drain holes in the bottom and only mesh pockets on the outside.
MedicineMan
06-16-2006, 04:16
made me look goofy, well come to think of it I am goofy...
A pack cover is the first line of defense against rain. It is not 100% effective, especially in prolonged heavy rains, but it will generally keep your pack mostly dry.
A pack liner is a barricade against any moisture that makes it past the exterior fabric of your pack. Most of the time the amount of water that makes it past your pack cover will not be enough to soak items in your pack, but considering a sil-nylon pack liner or a garbage compactor bag are very light for their purpose, a liner is great insurance and needed redundancy, and if they are intact (no holes or tears) they are quite effective at keeping the items inside the liner dry.
Sil-nylon stuff sacks are not only a third line of defense against moisture, but they are also the most weight-efficient storage containers for critical items like your sleeping bag and camp clothes.
Do you need three lines of defense against water? Depends. Keep in mind, water is insidious - it will find a way into your pack if that way exists. If a pack cover doesn't quite fit, was put on in haste, or has an unseen tear or hole, water will exploit it.
So then can you afford to have some water get in your pack? In the summer, probably. IN March or April in the Smokies, or September in Maine, probably not. If you are doing a long hike ala the AT, chances are you will run into a prolonged period - three, four, maybe five days - of cold piercing heavy rains. That's when you will need water protection for all of your gear.
Personally, I use a sil-nylon pack liner and sil-nylon stuff sacks for all internal
items during the summer and on short excursions - the bulk of the hiking I am able to do now. On mild or cold weather hikes, and for any long hike, I would also take my sil-nylon pack cover. Because the only times that I really do not enjoy hiking are when I am cold and wet, my camp clothes are cold and damp, and I've been stupid enough to allow my down sleeping bag to get wet.
SGT Rock
06-16-2006, 08:13
Rumbler's description of how to pack and protect is right on the money. The only things I do different is use a trash compactor bag for a pack liner and my sil-nylon pack cover is a part of my jacket - a Packa. But having multiple lines of defense and a good sorting strategy like that is a great way to protect your gear. I personally consider myself a little over protected and maybe a little paranoid about getting gear wet.
Footslogger
06-16-2006, 09:03
[quote=rumbler]If you are doing a long hike ala the AT, chances are you will run into a prolonged period - three, four, maybe five days - of cold piercing heavy rains.
====================================
Sir ...you are the master of the understatment!!
But couldn't agree more in terms of your water defense strategy.
'Slogger
Just Jeff
06-16-2006, 12:33
Pack liners also don't protect anything if you fall in a stream...and unless it's summer, that's when you'll need dry stuff the most.
some of this article was coverd by suggestions, but still very interesting imho. http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/DryGear/index.html . personally im going poncho tarp+liner.
mike!
SGT Rock
06-16-2006, 12:45
Pack liners also don't protect anything if you fall in a stream...and unless it's summer, that's when you'll need dry stuff the most.
Well I think that depends on the liner and how you employ it. The militay wet weather bag (pack liner) if used correctly works well. I wouldn't use sil nylon, but a trash compactor bag because I trust them better, but here is how:
1. twist the bag shut after getting all the air out of it.
2. now with the twisted end, fold it over.
3. Use a short piece of cord to tie the folded end shut against itself.
Just Jeff
06-16-2006, 15:18
Yep. I rarely use a cord b/c I don't do many stream crossings, but I twist and fold just like with the wet weather bag.
I was even thinking about duct-taping a cord onto a compactor bag when I'm in really wet weather. That'll make it just like the wet weather bag.
I've got an REI Ducks Back rain cover, but it weighs 8.4 oz. including the small bag to carry it in. Seems very heavy to me. Are there lighter bags to use with a Jansport Klamath pack (4750-5200 cu in)? Will a large hd garbage bag do the job?
I'd say use a liner. I use a contractor grade trash bag which weighs as much as a pack cover, but it's always where it needs to be. If your pack is mainly silnylon, it won't absorb much water, so the liner would be good here. Also note that no pack cover seals around the shoulder straps completely, and water will eventually wick down the straps to the pack. When I used pack covers the past three decades, I'd always have wet gear in my covered pack where my wet back contacted the pack harness, which got the pack body wet, which got the contents wet.....
saimyoji
09-13-2006, 17:17
I'd say use a liner. I use a contractor grade trash bag which weighs as much as a pack cover, but it's always where it needs to be. If your pack is mainly silnylon, it won't absorb much water, so the liner would be good here. Also note that no pack cover seals around the shoulder straps completely, and water will eventually wick down the straps to the pack. When I used pack covers the past three decades, I'd always have wet gear in my covered pack where my wet back contacted the pack harness, which got the pack body wet, which got the contents wet.....
Try out the packa.
www.thepacka.com
Campmor also has something very similar, but cheaper.
hopefulhiker
09-13-2006, 18:01
I carried an extra trash bag pretty much the whole time.. ended up using it a few times., Gave a couple away as groundcloths, emergency pochos to other hikers.. I used oven bags too. A I had the Luxury Lite Pack which had water proof cylinders...
I may return the pack covers and go with the large garbage bags - they seem to be more versatile than a cover. I'll have to compare the weight of a large garbage bag with the cover (not in it's carry bag). I'm starting to obsess about weight... I've got my total pack weight down to 31.4 lbs. and my wife's down to 29. I'd sure like to get my wife's closer to 25. She's going to use our daughter's pack, which weighs 6lb 10oz, maybe we'll have to look for a lighter pack for her - I'm sure there a decent packs about 3 pounds less than hers out there for not too much money. Thanks for the suggestions.
I don't have time to read what everyone else said but here's my $0.02
Pack covers are virtually worthless, they'll leak on the sides, down the back, the wind can take them right off, BAH! I say... Get yourself a nice Hefty contractor or trash compactor bag and put critical items in their own seperate waterproof sacks.
SGT Rock
09-14-2006, 02:33
Well pack covers do one good thing - keep the material of a pack dry and add another barrier to water. Most pack material will absorb water and since it is not in-contact with your body heat for the most part it will dry slow and has a chance to mildew. Stinky pack and depending on your pack, it can add some weight (I am a gram weenie).
IMO layered defense is best anyway against getting gear wet. If you depend on only one thing, then your stuff gets wet if that one thing fails. I hate wet gear - suffered through that once on a backpacking trip and a few times in my job.
Pack cover. Water resistance for backpack. Backpack liner. Seam sealed sil-nylon stuff sacks. If you do it right, it really doesn't add more than an ounce or two anyway. The payoff will be when it rains for 7 days straight and your stuff is dry while others are complaining.
titanium_hiker
09-14-2006, 04:59
both? How many ounces of water in gear will you save by having a couple for the trash bag and pack cover?
titanium_hiker
SGT Rock
09-14-2006, 05:34
Depends on how much water gets in your pack or soaked into gear. Water weighs more than one ounce per fluid ounce, so 2 ounces of water will add 2.1 ounces of weight.
I hate pack covers and pack liners.
**** that.
I hear you. But I also hate to have all my gear wet. Even though most everything is in a bag of some sort, things still seem to get damp. So, I use a pack cover to try to minimize how wet things get.
SGT Rock
09-14-2006, 16:33
Pack liners- ya gots to root through the whole liner to get sutff, and stuff is hard to find and usually congregates at the bottom. If you use a dark colored trash bag, small things are nearly impossible to find.
Use a white trash compactor bag.
But since you say you hate both, what do you use to keep your gear dry?
Bloodroot
09-14-2006, 16:36
Like Rock I use a large trash compactor bag inside my pack. After a month into it I ended up mailing all my wet weather gear home and used a poncho to cover me and my pack. Its great for those short hard rains so you don't have to keep taking your rain jacket and pantson and off.
Like Rock I use a large trash compactor bag inside my pack. After a month into it I ended up mailing all my wet weather gear home and used a poncho to cover me and my pack. Its great for those short hard rains so you don't have to keep taking your rain jacket and pantson and off.
I should have noted that my pack gets wet from my sweat alone, and if I didn't use a liner (as well as well sealed silnylon ditty bags [small stuff sacks] for my gear), it would get wet from me, poncho or not, or maybe more so with a poncho. I carry a poncho in the summer, but usually use it for a hamock tarp. I find it too warm for most summer rains. I'm a warm hiker and tend to get overheated in raingear if the temperature is much above 45F.
Case in point - I did a weekend hike on the Long Trail with a couple of friends who were thruhiking it (I finished it in sections in 1999). It began to pour when were less than a mile from our intended shelter. I took out my poncho, started to put it on, and realized that I'd be steamed like a lobster in no time, so I took it back off, stuffed it into the top of my pack (on top of the twisted off trash bag), and hiked the rest of the way to the shelter in my polypro top and nylon shorts. Shortly after we arrived and set up, the rain stopped and I was able to "wear dry" my wet clothing before changing into my long johns for the night in the hammock. I figured a real-life scenario might help folks understand why I do what I do in terms of both waterproofing of pack contents and raingear. The temps, btw, were between 65 and 75 degrees F.