View Full Version : Woohoo - score one for the good guys!
grrickar
06-15-2006, 22:48
So I got a $50 gift card to REI from my brother for my birthday last week, and I broke down and ordered a Jetboil. I am leaving for the trail for our annual section hike next Monday and the USPS tracking showed that it would not arrive until Monday. :(
I had to go on a business trip and so I called home to find out the package came yesterday (I ordered Sunday). That is fast shipping for the USPS, especially since I went with the standard shipping.
It gets better...I open the box and there is a Jetboil box with a cup shrink-wrapped on the outside. I cut the shrink wrap and open the cup and there is a Jetboil stove inside. Weird. Why would they put that in the companion cup and not in the box I wondered....
So I open the box, remove that cup and I'm thinking - dang, this thing is heavy...wait a minute...<opens cup=""> THERE'S A JETBOIL STOVE IN IT TOO!!!! WOOOOHOOOOOOO! A 2-fer-1!:banana
I may never win the lottery, but lady luck has smiled on me!</opens>
Are you an REI "cooperative" member? REI decided to offer a 2 for 1 at the last minute? That's unusual. If not a special, I'm sure you'll be returning the extra Jet Boil to the cooperative to mend the error.
grrickar
06-16-2006, 11:09
Doubt it was a co-op mistake. It was bundled that way from Jetboil.
How does that make it "ok" to keep something you didn't pay for? Then again...maybe you should check your invoice, you may have paid for both of them.
hikerjohnd
06-16-2006, 21:35
How does that make it "ok" to keep something you didn't pay for?
My wife and I went to Sonic to get a Coke when we were out about three weeks ago. We pulled in (during happy hour!!!) and paid about $1.50 for two drinks. My wife handed the girl a $5 to pay and the girl gave her $18.50 in change. Now, the ineptitude of the girl giving us our change would lead me to keep the extra money and when she cashed in perhaps she would learn her mistake. My wife, on the other hand, being the better person, pointed out the mistake, returned the $15 she felt we were not entitled to keep. The girl simply did not understand and did not want to accept the money.
So - why is it "OK" to keep something you didn't pay for? Ineptitude on the part of business comes at a price. Sometimes that price is lost inventory or a short cash drawer. If businesses continue to employ individuals who lack a basic education, then they will pay the price. I have experienced it as an employee who had to work with these challenged individuals and I have experienced this as an employer who has high expectations and sought to provide a level of customer service that was second to none.
Our society is based on getting as much as we can for as little as we can pay. Until the consumer's basic attitude changes, we will continue to struggle with less than stellar service - and the oversights by inept customer service people is in some small way our compensation for poor service.
hikerjohnd
06-16-2006, 21:42
Just for the record, I was sharing my post with my wife who rolled her eyes and said, "no, no, no" in a quiet voice. See, I told you she was the better one of us. :)
Oh...yeah....I get it, personal responsibility, and personal integrity go out the window for the sake of "teaching someone else a lesson" right? Sorry man...I gotta agree w/your wife on this one. :)
sliderule
06-16-2006, 21:53
Last year i placed an order with REI on a Wednesday night. The order total was around $75 and I chose the standard method of shipping. Saturday morning, the post office calls to tell me that I have an express package.
REI had paid $68 to ship $75 worth of merchandise via Express Mail.
Just Jeff
06-16-2006, 22:59
There's right and there's wrong. Not much in between. If you didn't rightfully acquire it, it's wrong to keep it. Period.
Is it "right" to take advantage of someone else's mistake? Well, let's take that to an extreme. Some man trips on the sidewalk and knocks himself out, dropping a $5000 watch. You walk up, see him unconscious and no longer in possession of the watch b/c it's laying on the sidewalk. Finders keepers? Well, he made the mistake of dropping his watch in the first place, so even though you know where the watch came from (just like the JetBoil), you might as well take advantage of his mistake for your profit.
Just because you're screwing (sorry, I meant "taking advantage of") a company instead of an individual doesn't change the principle...you're keeping something that's not rightfully yours. Besides, if you call them to point out the mistake, they'll likely tell you to give it to a friend instead of sending it back, anyway.
JMHO - I don't have to look at you in the mirror every day, so do what you like with it. And it's not like my prices will increase b/c you're taking advantage of them...I already have a JetBoil. (Unless it was REI's mistake, in which case you're incrementally adding to my costs when I shop there. Thanks, bro.)
My wife and I went to Sonic to get a Coke when we were out about three weeks ago. We pulled in (during happy hour!!!) and paid about $1.50 for two drinks. My wife handed the girl a $5 to pay and the girl gave her $18.50 in change. Now, the ineptitude of the girl giving us our change would lead me to keep the extra money and when she cashed in perhaps she would learn her mistake. My wife, on the other hand, being the better person, pointed out the mistake, returned the $15 she felt we were not entitled to keep. The girl simply did not understand and did not want to accept the money.
So - why is it "OK" to keep something you didn't pay for? Ineptitude on the part of business comes at a price. Sometimes that price is lost inventory or a short cash drawer. If businesses continue to employ individuals who lack a basic education, then they will pay the price. I have experienced it as an employee who had to work with these challenged individuals and I have experienced this as an employer who has high expectations and sought to provide a level of customer service that was second to none.
Our society is based on getting as much as we can for as little as we can pay. Until the consumer's basic attitude changes, we will continue to struggle with less than stellar service - and the oversights by inept customer service people is in some small way our compensation for poor service.
That's quite a sad and pathetic justification for a lack of personal and social integrity.
In reading your commentary, I imagined hundreds of disturbing visual images that could represent scenarios in your daily life; what you would be willing to teach your children, the impact your actions could have on the fate of people that encounter you in everyday situations. Theft by convenience; is that your motto? Where do you draw the line on the size of a business you're willing to take advantage of? If the local one-person baker's father just died and you're her last customer so she can shut the bakery door, gives you $18.50 more in change than what was coming to you, you'd keep it? Willing to take from the grieving?
As Peter Scotese said, "Integrity is not a 90 percent thing, not a 95 percent thing; either you have it or you don't." Now in your mid-30's, you may be beyond hope. Very sad.
Lone Wolf
06-16-2006, 23:04
So I got a $50 gift card to REI from my brother for my birthday last week, and I broke down and ordered a Jetboil. I am leaving for the trail for our annual section hike next Monday and the USPS tracking showed that it would not arrive until Monday. :(
I had to go on a business trip and so I called home to find out the package came yesterday (I ordered Sunday). That is fast shipping for the USPS, especially since I went with the standard shipping.
It gets better...I open the box and there is a Jetboil box with a cup shrink-wrapped on the outside. I cut the shrink wrap and open the cup and there is a Jetboil stove inside. Weird. Why would they put that in the companion cup and not in the box I wondered....
So I open the box, remove that cup and I'm thinking - dang, this thing is heavy...wait a minute...<opens cup=""> THERE'S A JETBOIL STOVE IN IT TOO!!!! WOOOOHOOOOOOO! A 2-fer-1!:banana
I may never win the lottery, but lady luck has smiled on me!</opens>
Do the right thing. No bulls**t.
DawnTreader
06-17-2006, 00:23
Wow,
Eagle Scout???? I hope your integrity isn't rubbing off on the younger scouts you instruct...
What do you need 2 jetboils for anyway?? I would be more than happy with one...send it back.. at least write them and have them tell you what to do with it...be a man
hammock engineer
06-17-2006, 01:25
I can see the right or wrong approach. I would probibly donate the 2nd one to the scouts. I remember my group aways being tight on cast and gear.
I have gotten some small things added to orders before. I can't see them making that big of a mistake. If it was me I would figure out the cause of it and do whatever lets me sleep at night.
I can see the right or wrong approach. I would probibly donate the 2nd one to the scouts. I remember my group aways being tight on cast and gear.
I have gotten some small things added to orders before. I can't see them making that big of a mistake. If it was me I would figure out the cause of it and do whatever lets me sleep at night.
I believe you'll find that there's a significant delta (Δ) separating your concept of a comfortable slumber and that of your WhiteBlaze brethren who initiated this thread and one who made a fast food pitstop.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-17-2006, 07:51
Wow,
Eagle Scout???? I hope your integrity isn't rubbing off on the younger scouts you instruct...An incident very similar to this was why I decided to remove my son from Boy Scouts many years ago. The troop ordered some tents and sleeping bags with money they had raised in a car wash. They got two extra bags and the Scout leader expressed thoughts to his troop that were very similar to those expressed here by grrickar and hikerjohnd.
dreamhiker
06-17-2006, 08:01
send it back so I can buy it for 60% off at the next tent sale. LOL
DreamHiker
blindeye
06-17-2006, 22:40
do the right thing! give it back.
hikerjohnd
06-17-2006, 23:19
That's quite a sad and pathetic justification for a lack of personal and social integrity.
In reading your commentary, I imagined hundreds of disturbing visual images that could represent scenarios in your daily life; what you would be willing to teach your children, the impact your actions could have on the fate of people that encounter you in everyday situations. Theft by convenience; is that your motto? Where do you draw the line on the size of a business you're willing to take advantage of? If the local one-person baker's father just died and you're her last customer so she can shut the bakery door, gives you $18.50 more in change than what was coming to you, you'd keep it? Willing to take from the grieving?
As Peter Scotese said, "Integrity is not a 90 percent thing, not a 95 percent thing; either you have it or you don't." Now in your mid-30's, you may be beyond hope. Very sad.
Well, first, I do not have (nor will I have) children - so I am not teaching them anything. Second, where do I draw the line? It really depends on the situation. If I receive lousy service, I am not likely to do business there. If there is no choice (like Home Depot - there really is no alternative here) I have no problem benefitting from their mistake if I receive poor service. If service is good, then I would, in the event of a mistake, point out the error.
As to integrity, it is defined as: Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code (source - dictionary.com). I have a code. It is one that I adhere to. You may feel it is sad, that is your opinion, but please do not spend time feeling sad for me. I believe in karma - and now into my mid-30's, as you point out, I have done and am doing just fine.
RSWillis
06-17-2006, 23:31
It all evens out in the end, you get something free today and tomorrow something will be taken from you. That being said I'd keep it.
Just Jeff
06-18-2006, 13:36
Dictionary - denotation
Real Life - connotation
I don't think many people would consider stealing to be part of a worthy moral code, or to demonstrate integrity. But if your karma is comfortable with it, I won't lose any sleep.
Can you put a price on honor? I guess some people can...about $80 (http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=47792053&parent_category_rn=4500453&vcat=REI_SEARCH)...or $60 on eBay (http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2 F&fkr=1&from=R8&satitle=jetboil&category0=).
hikerjohnd
06-18-2006, 13:53
Can you put a price on honor? I guess some people can...about $80 (http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=47792053&parent_category_rn=4500453&vcat=REI_SEARCH)...or $60 on eBay (http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2 F&fkr=1&from=R8&satitle=jetboil&category0=).
and not losing any sleep over it... priceless. Some things money can't buy....
Just Jeff
06-18-2006, 14:09
Like the pride a father feels watching his son do the right thing. Unfortunately, money can usually buy the opposite.
There is a limit to what I am ethically obliged to do to correct someone else's mistake. An 800 number phone call notifying them of the mistake is appropriate. It's my guess they will say forget it. Or perhaps "give the extra to someone who needs it."
Beyond that, it is up to the vendor to offer suggestions. I would be under no ethical requirement to repackage and send back at my cost any extra gear sent by mistake.
If the vendor asked me to repackage I probably would, providing the vendor offered to pay shipping costs.
Having once worked as a shipping clerk in a bobbi pin factory, let me suggest that folks should keep in mind also that once the vendor is notified, some minimum wage worker is likely to lose his or her job.
Weary
Critterman
06-18-2006, 15:38
What goes around comes around. I have met alot of people with an attitude like yours. What is funny is how loud they whine if they get screwed by some one like themselves.
hikerjohnd
06-18-2006, 15:49
What goes around comes around. I have met alot of people with an attitude like yours. What is funny is how loud they whine if they get screwed by some one like themselves.
Careful... judge not... How do you know I haven't already been screwed?
Just Jeff
06-18-2006, 16:05
There is a limit to what I am ethically obliged to do to correct someone else's mistake. An 800 number phone call notifying them of the mistake is appropriate.
Agree 100%.
folks should keep in mind also that once the vendor is notified, some minimum wage worker is likely to lose his or her job.
Hrm - a new aspect of the ethics. Why should I be under any obligation to protect that worker from his own incompetence? Any why is protecting that worker more important than protecting the business from that worker.
But as a practical consideration, a business that consistently fires its workers for simple mistakes, rather than letting them learn from it and teach others, doesn't have a sound business philosophy, IMO. But I know that's often how the unskilled job market is. To me, though, the answer is to work hard and gain a skill, rather than to rely on "protection" from others to "allow" you to keep a job. JMO.
Still, to me the issue is that the property belongs to the business, so that business should decide what should happen to it. As you said, they'll probably say "just keep it" but I'd still be happy to send it back if they paid postage. Personally, that's where I'd draw the line - I wouldn't pay out of pocket to correct their mistake.
Hrm - a new aspect of the ethics. Why should I be under any obligation to protect that worker from his own incompetence? Any(way) why is protecting that worker more important than protecting the business from that worker? ....
Those are questions everyone has to answer for themselves. I probably could argue both sides of the issue if I put my mind to it, which I'm not going to. I brought up the matter upon remembering being fired from a company in Chicago for shipping too few bobbi pins to a W. T. Grant Store five or six decades ago.
As it turned out I was simultaneously being drafted into the Korean War and since I wasn't working anymore returned to Maine, delaying my induction, and triggering a series of events that ended my stumbling through minimum wage jobs.
And despite getting a full complement of bobbi pins from my replacement, somehow W. T. Grant managed to go out of business anyway.
Weary
hikerjohnd
06-18-2006, 17:02
And despite getting a full complement of bobbi pins from my replacement, somehow W. T. Grant managed to go out of business anyway.
Weary
I love stories with happy endings...
grrickar
06-18-2006, 20:20
Ok, so the thing - send it back. To whom should I send this back to? REI obviously got this from Jetboil with two stoves in it. I'll give them a call and see what they suggest.
Lone Wolf
06-18-2006, 20:37
Just keep the ***n thing and feel good about it. Quit tryin to explain your free loadin.:rolleyes:
grrickar
06-18-2006, 20:38
Incidentially, before anyone goes and questions my morals here, I recently ordered a coded remote for my Creative Zen Micro, along with a Star Wars Trilogy DVD set from an online retailer. The shipment came with a Star Wars Soundtrack set for the trilogy, not the DVDs. In the box that was supposed to have the remote, I opened to find 10 remotes in it. The person who grabbed the box did not realize there were 10 and not 1 in the box. I did the right thing and called, got an RMA number, went through all the red tape and returned the remotes. I also got an RMA for the soundtracks CDs and sent them back for the Trilogy DVDs. Six months later I got nothing to show for my order but a charge on my credit card, and more red tape and hassles until they finally credited my card for the DVDs I never got. :rolleyes:
Since it is the right thing to do, I will be returning the stove to either Jetboil or REI. The thing about sending this to REI is that I do not think they will be able to sell it since it has no box, no instructions, etc. Remember it was in the companion cup. I'll call before I send it back.
My observation was that it was not REI's mistake, but rather someone or some process at Jetboil put the extra stove in the cup. I'm ok with returning it - after all I did not pay for it, but you people act like I am stealing from the place or something. Did I say anything about 'screwing' REI or Jetboil? Umm, no. :rolleyes:
Compare it to this situation I ran into at Galyan's in N VA. I went to a clearance sale and they had a table with about 15 or so AT maps. Not the sets, but the individual maps. I know they are typically sold as sets, but somehow they ended up in this state. I found the manager and asked him about the maps and how much they were. He looked a map over and stated that they were supposed to be sold in sets, and since there was no bar code it was no in their inventory system, so he told me I could HAVE as many of them as I wanted. I took about 3 maps and the items I was buying and told the cashier about the comments the manager made and they had no issue with it. I kinda felt that this was the same thing here - it was not like REI accidentally put two stoves in the box. My question is what will REI do with the stove? It isn't theirs either - Jetboil obviously did not get the money for the extra stove when REI bought the shipment, unless this particular bundle was supposed to have an extar stove (no indication on the package that it should have)
The companion set is a boxed Jetboil stove with a extra cup factory shrink wrapped (by Jetboil) to the box. The boxed Jetboil obviously should have a stove in it (and it did), but the companion cup did as well. I paid more for the cup, but as far as I know I did not pay extra for the stove, so I will try and return it to whomever.
grrickar
06-18-2006, 20:39
Just keep the ***n thing and feel good about it. Quit tryin to explain your free loadin.:rolleyes:
Hikers = free loaders? Who knew???:D
grrickar
06-18-2006, 20:51
Sent an email to Jetboil, we'll see what they have to say. If anything they have rightful claim to the stove - it was their mistake packing it in the companion cup.
Seems like I recall another thread where something similar happened to another person. Does anyone recall that? Maybe Jetboil had a bad go of it and accidentally packaged them for some period of time in this manner? :confused:
As for what I will be doing with the stove if word comes back to keep it - if I paid for it then I will do the obvious thing, if I did not pay for it I will likely gift someone with it. I never really considered keeping it myself, I have 4 stoves already....
Just Jeff
06-18-2006, 22:48
Good on ya.
Sometimes I get carried away on the "theory" behind everyday things. I have my mistakes and I'm certainly not trying to pretend like I'm perfect or anything. I just enjoy these discussions too much, I guess!
grrickar
06-18-2006, 22:59
Wow,
Eagle Scout???? I hope your integrity isn't rubbing off on the younger scouts you instruct...
What do you need 2 jetboils for anyway?? I would be more than happy with one...send it back.. at least write them and have them tell you what to do with it...be a man
Thanks for questioning my integrity...I appreciate that. Maybe someday we will meet on the trail and you can get to know me as a person. :(
I did write Jetboil an email, and I am awaiting a response. If they want the stove back it is theirs. If not, I will likely give this to someone that needs it.
DawnTreader
06-19-2006, 10:43
all apoligies grrickar...you have to admit, in your original post, you showed no signs that you were even considering sending it back, calling or writing the company.. You had not even mentioned giving the stove to someone who needed it.. so.. not knowing you, and posting on a public forum about a topic you chose to start, and expected responses on, I'm not quite sure what kind of things you thought people might think about your obvious initial response to keeping the stove as a second.. That being said, I would love to meet you on the trail. I hope you are a great person, as we all should strive to be... Have a great summer and enjoy you Jetboil... I might get one in the near future!!!
I would love to hear what NEO Has to say on this topic...NEO??? where you at dog???
RadioFreq
06-21-2006, 13:32
An incident very similar to this was why I decided to remove my son from Boy Scouts many years ago. The troop ordered some tents and sleeping bags with money they had raised in a car wash. They got two extra bags and the Scout leader expressed thoughts to his troop that were very similar to those expressed here by grrickar and hikerjohnd.
(Stepping onto the Scouting Soap Box)
You were right in pulling your son out of that troop for teaching the boys that sort of lesson. But I think you were wrong for not helping him find another troop.
EVERY organization or group has a few rotten apples. (Even WhiteBlaze.net :eek: ).
The beauty of Scouting is that if you are unhappy where you're at or don't agree with how that group of leaders are "guiding" the young boys and girls (yes, there are girls in Boy Scouts) there is nothing that keeps him/her from transferring to the troop down the road.
(Stepping off the Scouting Soap Box)
Lone Wolf
06-21-2006, 13:47
Any boys in Girl Scouts?:-?
RadioFreq
06-21-2006, 14:09
Any boys in Girl Scouts?:-?
Not to my knowledge. :-?
HUGOPUSS
06-21-2006, 14:24
Just keep the damn thing--u will have replacement parts!!!!!!!!!!
(Stepping onto the Scouting Soap Box)
You were right in pulling your son out of that troop for teaching the boys that sort of lesson. But I think you were wrong for not helping him find another troop.
EVERY organization or group has a few rotten apples. (Even WhiteBlaze.net :eek: ).
The beauty of Scouting is that if you are unhappy where you're at or don't agree with how that group of leaders are "guiding" the young boys and girls (yes, there are girls in Boy Scouts) there is nothing that keeps him/her from transferring to the troop down the road.
(Stepping off the Scouting Soap Box)
The "beauty" of Scouting (in America) today is discrimination. I think the Boy Scouts of America (specifically, America) have larger issues that people should be concerned about. In the last decade, following a hardcore religious doctrine, they've used the Boy Scout oath ("morally straight") and Law ("clean") to re-define scouting based on sexual orientation. That was a new one. Although the whole program is probably still filled with pedophiles. For the morons out there, the terms "gay" and "pedophile" are not synonymous. Your kid's much more likely to be raped by a heterosexual male. Although their decision has no direct impact on me, it's backward and justifies hate. They can have my patches, merit badges, Order of the Arrow and the entire ensemble back. People who condone the BSA, condone discrimination.
Lone Wolf
06-21-2006, 15:16
Not to my knowledge. :-?
Why would GIRLS want to join BOY Scouts?:-?
Because unfortunately, the "Girl Scouts" and the "Boy Scouts" are groups that serve to reproduce gender stereotypes in our society. I didn't WANT to learn how to bake f*#*ing cookies and sew! I WANTED to learn how to hike, read a compass, survive in the outdoors, and go camping!!! I'm a girl though, so my choice (back when I was 7 or 8) was the precursor to the Girl Scouts...the Blue Birds. It was a total crock of boring crap (to me), and although most boys wouldn't dare admit it (because they'd have to endure being called a sissy or ****** or worse...getting physially assaulted so they can learn how to "be a man"), there are probably a handful of boys that would rather have been in the Girl Scouts learning those things.
Gender is socially constructed (don't confuse gender w/sex here). The roles that boy/girls and men/women are "expected" to fill were constructed by society. There is no rule book stating that only men can be auto mechanics, but you sure don't see a lot of women in that job do you? And for the record...I was an automotive technician and then went on to teach it. First and only in the state I was living in at the time.
So, it's not a matter of "why would a girl WANT to be in the Boy Scouts." The issue is why is it even a question?
Skidsteer
06-21-2006, 18:01
So, it's not a matter of "why would a girl WANT to be in the Boy Scouts." The issue is why is it even a question?
I'm thinking the question has something to do with the name of the organization. :-? :D
Why would GIRLS want to join BOY Scouts?
Why is it OK for Danika Patrick to drive an Indy race car?
Why is it OK for Annika Sorenstam and Michelle Wie to play golf with the men?
Why is it OK for a woman to join the PBA?
Why do women usually get paid less than men for doing the same job?
Why do some people think that gay marriage threatens my marriage?
Why do some people worry about whether or not I'm going to hell?
Why do some people worry about whether or not you or I walked the ENTIRE Appalachan Trail?
Why am I wasting time on this stupid thread?
RadioFreq
06-21-2006, 18:50
Oh, man I knew this debate was going to break out. Okay, I'm game.
(Stepping back onto the Boy Scout Soap Box :) ) Note: the following comments are based strictly my impressions and experiences as a Scout leader of almost two decades. I do not claim to speak for the BSA:
The "beauty" of Scouting (in America) today is discrimination. I think the Boy Scouts of America (specifically, America) have larger issues that people should be concerned about. In the last decade, following a hardcore religious doctrine, they've used the Boy Scout oath ("morally straight") and Law ("clean") to re-define scouting based on sexual orientation. That was a new one. Although the whole program is probably still filled with pedophiles. For the morons out there, the terms "gay" and "pedophile" are not synonymous. Your kid's much more likely to be raped by a heterosexual male. Although their decision has no direct impact on me, it's backward and justifies hate. They can have my patches, merit badges, Order of the Arrow and the entire ensemble back. People who condone the BSA, condone discrimination.
Buckles, if you think I'm going to argue with you, well, I can't :confused: . Back almost 100 years ago when the BSA was formed those founding fathers (and most everyone else in society at that time) equated homosexuality, pedophilia, transvestism (sp?) and any other orientation that wasn't true, blue heterosexual as perverted and something to be feared. And there are some neanderthals out there who still believe this. (At least they were right about pedophilia.) But I believe that society as a whole is beginning to come around on the acceptance of gay orientation. The Gay Rights Movement which began in the late 60's can take a lot of credit for society's education on just what being "gay" really means. Unfortunately the BSA is not evolving as fast as society as a whole. I believe it will change someday...maybe not in my lifetime...but I do believe it will change.
The reason I believe this is because of something I've noticed in the boys.
When these kids get to be around 14 or so some begin questioning the BSA's stance on this issue. They know that being gay is NOT an issue in Canadian and European Scouting. These are the ones that a decade from now will have kids of their own reaching the Scouting age and they will be that generation's scout leaders. They are the ones that will force change when they replace the "good old boys" down in Texas that are currently running things. You may not like it and that's probably not soon enough for most, but that's the way I see it.
Because unfortunately, the "Girl Scouts" and the "Boy Scouts" are groups that serve to reproduce gender stereotypes in our society. I didn't WANT to learn how to bake f*#*ing cookies and sew! I WANTED to learn how to hike, read a compass, survive in the outdoors, and go camping!!! I'm a girl though, so my choice (back when I was 7 or 8) was the precursor to the Girl Scouts...the Blue Birds. It was a total crock of boring crap (to me), and although most boys wouldn't dare admit it (because they'd have to endure being called a sissy or ****** or worse...getting physially assaulted so they can learn how to "be a man"), there are probably a handful of boys that would rather have been in the Girl Scouts learning those things.
Gender is socially constructed (don't confuse gender w/sex here). The roles that boy/girls and men/women are "expected" to fill were constructed by society. There is no rule book stating that only men can be auto mechanics, but you sure don't see a lot of women in that job do you? And for the record...I was an automotive technician and then went on to teach it. First and only in the state I was living in at the time.
So, it's not a matter of "why would a girl WANT to be in the Boy Scouts." The issue is why is it even a question?
Michelle, it isn't a question any longer. The Boy Scouts have a co-ed program called Venturing. And they do all those things you wish you could have done when you were younger. Unfortunately you were born too soon. Sorry. :( This does, however, show that the BSA is slowly coming around. There was a time not that long ago when the BSA did not allow female leaders. Thankfully that is no longer the case :) .
(Stepping off the Boy Scout Soap Box...again.)
Skidsteer
06-21-2006, 19:06
Sent an email to Jetboil, we'll see what they have to say. If anything they have rightful claim to the stove - it was their mistake packing it in the companion cup.
As for what I will be doing with the stove if word comes back to keep it - if I paid for it then I will do the obvious thing, if I did not pay for it I will likely gift someone with it. I never really considered keeping it myself, I have 4 stoves already....
So, Grrickar. Any word from Jetboil yet? :D
Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-21-2006, 20:49
(Stepping onto the Scouting Soap Box)
You were right in pulling your son out of that troop for teaching the boys that sort of lesson. But I think you were wrong for not helping him find another troop.
EVERY organization or group has a few rotten apples. (Even WhiteBlaze.net <!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"/> <v:formulas> <v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"/> </v:formulas> <v:path o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"/> <o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"/> </v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:12pt; height:12pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:/DOCUME~1/CRS/LOCALS~1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.gif" o:href="http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]-->:eek:<!--[endif]-->).
The beauty of Scouting is that if you are unhappy where you're at or don't agree with how that group of leaders are "guiding" the young boys and girls (yes, there are girls in Boy Scouts) there is nothing that keeps him/her from transferring to the troop down the road.
(Stepping off the Scouting Soap Box)The incident with the lack of integrity on the part of my son's scout leader was just the last straw. I wasn't happy with the underlying belif system of the organization in my area.
During the period just prior to my removing my son, I had accompanied the troop on two overnight camp-outs with other troops - I was asked to go because of my medical background. I had taken my own tent and my foster daughter (16 months older than my son).
I overheard many of the things they taught the boys and they were not the sort of things I wanted my child to learn or grow up believing - things like boys were somehow more capable than girls and that girls couldn't handle the activities the boys were engaging in. The skills he was learning in BSA were coming at the price of his learning the values I did not want him to have about things like gender roles, tolerance of those who were different and different religious beliefs. I heard some of the most bigoted statements of my life on those camping trips - many from the scout leaders not with my son's troop. They bashed gays, people of color, the handicapped, women and people of religions other than Christianity.
Maybe the organization has changed over the years, but it was about 1/2 step from the KKK back then.
Radio,
There's not much to debate here. I generally agree with you, except on how to move forward. The "Texas Boys" have taken control of the BSA and there will be a new generation of Texas Boys behind them. Personally, I don't believe this is resolved via the passive approach, justifying it as many good things and only one bad. There are more companies, organizations, professional associations, religious-oriented groups, states, cities and the like that have taken a stand against the current BSA, while only the religious right have stood with them. I think people need to realize that the BSA has been permanently hijacked. Find or create a new avenue for young men and women.
Just Jeff
06-21-2006, 21:58
Why do women usually get paid less than men for doing the same job?
Can't speak to the others, but studies show this one has a non-discriminatory answer. You could say it's still based in social roles, but the difference in wages has very little to do with employer discrimination. Men are more likely to work overtime (and therefore be more competitive for promotions), less likely to take off time after a child's birth or to be a stay at home parent (and thus taking time away from the career), etc. Gender roles enforced by society to be sure, but not outright discrimination like some of the other issues you posted.
hikerjohnd
06-21-2006, 22:34
Can't speak to the others, but studies show this one has a non-discriminatory answer. You could say it's still based in social roles, but the difference in wages has very little to do with employer discrimination. Men are more likely to work overtime (and therefore be more competitive for promotions), less likely to take off time after a child's birth or to be a stay at home parent (and thus taking time away from the career), etc. Gender roles enforced by society to be sure, but not outright discrimination like some of the other issues you posted.
And these studies were conducted by The Male Chauvanist Society of America in the 1950s??? I'd like to see documentation regarding these studies (and my wife - the better one of us - says you are in trouble for even trying to peddle this poppycock). According to the law, wage desparity based solely on gender is illegal for all of the reasons you cited above.
Now, my integrity has been question more than once in this thread - and I believe RadioFreq called me a bad apple at one point (RadioFreq - if that was not directed at me I apologize for taking it as such) but I certainly am pleased to have an avenue in which I can vent such beliefs.
So let me be clear and on the record - the past trend of gender desparity and discrimination based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, shoe size, pick your segregating category and insert it here, is an abomination to everything the United States was founded on. I am ashamed of the actions in which our society has engaged. I can not change the past, but I am fervently active in the present to change the future. There is nothing that one group can do better than the other - we as a society have simply elected to continue these biases becasue we can not handle the challenge to our selves. Education is the cornerstone of these essential changes - education for our children and for ourselves. Until we all accept that there should be no differences, then our society will continue to be divided - to the detrement of everyone concerned.
OK - bash away.
Just Jeff
06-22-2006, 01:36
Let me be clear - discrimination on gender, race, etc, is wrong - I'm not saying otherwise or trying to justify true discrimination in any way. Here's what I was trying to say.
I have two people and one promotion. One has two more years of experience and routinely works overtime to make sure my projects get done. The other one doesn't. All else being equal, the first person gets the promotion no matter the gender.
If that person happens to be a male (and most often in our society - at least at the time of that study - that's the case b/c, right or wrong, more women choose to be the cornerstone of the home instead of focusing on career) it's not discrimination. The decision wasn't based on gender, but on characteristics of the individual.
If that person happens to be female, she gets the promotion - and probably more of my respect if she's breaking society's stereotypes to do it. But I guess granting her more respect is discriminatory. So be it.
I'm not saying men are any more capable than women for any particular job...that would be discrimination (and incorrect in most cases)...just that this study found that women tend to make decisions that negatively impact their careers by putting families before careers. If a guy does that, he gets the same consequences. At the time of this study, though, women did that more often than men.
As an aside, I think it's a positive thing that women do that. And I think it's great when men do it and rely on the woman for the primary income - as long as one parent concentrates on the home and raising healthy kids, I don't care which one does it. Daycare has its place, but IMO it's usually not as good as having a parent care for the kids.
I don't remember the name of the study - I read about it ~6 years ago in a Comp and Benefits class (with a female PhD teaching it). It recognized the wage discrepancy between men and women, then sought to find out why...it found that about 5% of the wage discrepancy was due to pure discrimination ("wage desparity based solely on gender"), where something like 40% was due to women taking off more time for family issues and such. So the answer to closing the wage gap was to concentrate efforts less on "discrimination," which is already illegal, and concentrate more on encouraging men to take paternity leave and such.
So sad that I'm in trouble with your wife... :p
...just that this study found that women tend to make decisions that negatively impact their careers by putting families before careers. If a guy does that, he gets the same consequences.
Imagine that? Putting family before career! Maybe I'm the exception to the rule, but I can't understand why EVERYONE doesn't do that. The bozos who spew this crap (not you JJ) are usually the same ones interfering in other people's lives under the banner of family values.
jaywalke
06-22-2006, 10:32
I like to toss in an aside about getting back too much change.
I was on the management team of an Eastern Mountain Sports for a while, and despite the fact that I have a college degree and got a 700 on the math section of the SAT, I gave people the wrong change twice. When you are ringing up customer, guiding a new employee through a return on the next register, answering another customer's question and trying to get to a ringing phone at the same time, mistakes happen. Those who have never made a mistake, go ahead and cast that first stone . . .
You may call it poor service or incompetence, but it more likely that the bosses up the line just don't provide enough hours in the budget for complete staffing. They know that customers care primarily about low price, and are willing to put up with understaffed stores (i.e. Home Depot). Those hours that are provided are low-paying and don't include benefits, so the employees that are there are undermotivated. The majority of the time we were expected to cover a 3000 sq. ft. store with two employees, and along with helping customers we cleaned the store, received, shipped and stocked goods, handled paperwork and rearranged and constantly changed sale items at the whims of the folks at the head office.
I know, I know, just get a better job, Jay. I did as soon as possible, but it was an eye-opening time. I've done a lot of different work in my life, from high-paying consulting to working on my family's farm, but retail is by far the hardest thing I've ever done.
The two times I screwed up I had very different customers. One guy immediately and kindly pointed out that I had given him $10 too much. I felt like a moron, but thanked him and moved on. The other time my drawer failed to balance, I figured out who it was by back-tracking the cash transactions. The guy bought a clearance tent with a hundred and a fifty, and I made change for two hundreds. I remembered thinking that his smirk when I handed him his change was odd, but I didn't catch my mistake until the end of the day. The $50 came out of my pocket.
I sincerely hope he has a miserable life. If I ever see him again, I'll try to remember that he is probably a sad individual and I should rise above . . . but I'll probably just give him a solid boot in the ass.
hikerjohnd
06-22-2006, 13:45
I gave people the wrong change twice. When you are ringing up customer, guiding a new employee through a return on the next register, answering another customer's question and trying to get to a ringing phone at the same time, mistakes happen.
If you could do all of that and not be rude (busy is different from rude) then I certainly would not keep the change. It is situations where people have stopped caring for the customer that really get to me.
greymane
06-22-2006, 14:06
Just a little example of why you should try to do the right thing:
A neighbor of mine worked for Microsoft (hardware beta tester). He moved to WA state to work for "Bill". A couple days after he moved, a package showed up on his step. (His apartment was right next to mine.) I went over to check it out and saw it addressed to him. I called the company (Airborne Express) explaining he moved and they came and picked it up. The next day, it was there again. I called again and (before they came to get it) wrote in black marker on the package MOVED OUT OF STATE. The next day, package again on the step (under 4 inches of snow). This time I thoroughly looked at the label and there was an email address for the sender. I emailed him and asked what to do. It was a brand new Intellimouse (back when they first came out). He told me to keep it and he would send J a new one.
In this case I was rewarded for my efforts. I have extricated people from car wreckage only to be slapped and verbally abused (drunks). I have given people money they dropped only to be accused of "trying to steal it". You do the right thing because it is the right thing. You always get paid back, sometimes it is just in a good night's sleep.
If you could do all of that and not be rude (busy is different from rude) then I certainly would not keep the change. It is situations where people have stopped caring for the customer that really get to me.
Even if someone is rude, you don't take what doesn't belong to you. I believe that's called moral relativism, but I welcome corrections by anyone better versed in Philosophy than me.
RadioFreq
06-22-2006, 14:16
And these studies were conducted by The Male Now, my integrity has been question more than once in this thread - and I believe RadioFreq called me a bad apple at one point (RadioFreq - if that was not directed at me I apologize for taking it as such) but I certainly am pleased to have an avenue in which I can vent such beliefs.
Naw, I don't think it was me....I try not to bash or name call. :D
Skidsteer
06-22-2006, 17:58
Even if someone is rude, you don't take what doesn't belong to you. I believe that's called moral relativism, but I welcome corrections by anyone better versed in Philosophy than me.
No corrections needed Mowgli. That's exactly what it's called and it was well said.
It's akin to a man or woman cheating on their spouse and trying to make it sound OK because the spouse just 'doesn't understand me'.
Just Jeff
06-22-2006, 18:44
Or that wrong isn't wrong if the circumstances don't suit you.
I'm sorry you wasted your money on a jet boil, after all the hype I bought one and was utterly disappointed. I'm going to go out and get anouther stove before going on my next hike. I'd return both and get your money back.
(Stepping onto the Scouting Soap Box)
You were right in pulling your son out of that troop for teaching the boys that sort of lesson. But I think you were wrong for not helping him find another troop.
EVERY organization or group has a few rotten apples. (Even WhiteBlaze.net :eek: ).
The beauty of Scouting is that if you are unhappy where you're at or don't agree with how that group of leaders are "guiding" the young boys and girls (yes, there are girls in Boy Scouts) there is nothing that keeps him/her from transferring to the troop down the road.
(Stepping off the Scouting Soap Box)
Or possibly actually dosomething about it within the troop. I know when I was in Boy Scouts (A Proud Eagle Scout) we had some people who treated the troop like a babysitter then complained about everything instead of taking part in their son's experience, Boy Scouts is not just for the boys.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-22-2006, 20:05
Fofer - my son is nearly 30 now. Boy Scouts was only for boys back then. I was active with him in Cub Scouts and as active as the good ol' boys would let me be in his Boy Scout experience. Mothers were explicitly told not to come around because it "would make the boys sissies" back then.
Please read post 48 for an example of the sort of things that were going on that lead to me deeming BSA to be an organization to be avoided. BTW, mothers who are looking for babysitters don't volunteer to go into the woods for the weekend as the camp nurse with 100+ kids.
hikerjohnd
06-22-2006, 22:55
Fofer - my son is nearly 30 now. Boy Scouts was only for boys back then.
I think he meant that BS is not just for the kids - it can be an experience for the parent as well.
We need to keep these things in perspective. I went shopping earlier this week. The only nearby supermarket had "organic" whole wheat bread on a promotion for 2 loaves for $5. When I got home I discovered the supermarket had charged me $3.89 a loaf. I was tempted to go back immediately. But I was on deadline to get out a newsletter for MATC. I live a 15 mile round trip from the store (gas is selling for nearly $3 a gallon.) (I get 24 mpg) ATV battles with my town land trust are increasing, so I never DID get back -- not the first night nor two subsequent nights.
The new ads came out in the papers today. No mention of a 2 for $5 sale. I've learned from long experience with that supermarket that if I can't show them a sign on the shelf, or a specific mention in their ad, an overcharge will never be returned. I had been taken for $2.78.
Believe me, ethical or no, the next time that store makes a mistake in my favor, (a VERY RARE EXPERIENCE) I'm unlikely to tell them.
Rocks 'n Roots
06-23-2006, 01:31
Keep it.
I know a person who works in the outdoors equipment industry and he tosses around free samples like they were nothing. I got a pair of free top of the line Lekis and a new type of fleece bag liner that works perfectly as a lightweight summer bag. He then told me to ask him if I needed anything else. Those big store retailers shed equipment like dander.
Keep it and don't worry about it. They probably won't even notice, and turning it back in could cause more trouble to the people you are trying to help than what you are trying to fix.
Two Speed
06-23-2006, 02:34
I'm sorry you wasted your money on a jet boil, after all the hype I bought one and was utterly disappointed. I'm going to go out and get anouther stove before going on my next hike. I'd return both and get your money back.Wouldn't carry one myself, but my hiking partner picked one up and I have to say if you're going to bother with one get the French press. The coffee out of a JetBoil with the press is FAR superior to the instant coffee I was accustomed to. Start with a good coffee, make it good and strong, add a little fresh milk and raw sugar . . . Yeah, the JetBoil is too heavy in my opinion, tippy, suffers from the "gee-whiz, double clutching, smoke activated, laser calibrated, chromium plated, GPS enabled, LED illuminated" syndrome, but that was one awesome pot of coffee. Made plenty, and made it quick, too. We both got two great cups every morning, so the JetBoil has it's place in the world IMHO.
Personally I think a JetBoil is a lot like a boat: you really don't want to own one, you want a best friend that does.
Just Jeff
06-23-2006, 05:16
Personally I think a JetBoil is a lot like a boat: you really don't want to own one, you want a best friend that does.
Haha - I don't care who ya are or where yer from, that's funny right there...
hikerjohnd
06-23-2006, 08:46
Personally I think a JetBoil is a lot like a boat: you really don't want to own one, you want a best friend that does.
Haha - I don't care who ya are or where yer from, that's funny right there...
Finally - something we can agree on!!! :D:D:D I have forwarded this to my neighbor - who just bought a boat...:sun
grrickar
06-23-2006, 21:16
Because unfortunately, the "Girl Scouts" and the "Boy Scouts" are groups that serve to reproduce gender stereotypes in our society. I didn't WANT to learn how to bake f*#*ing cookies and sew! I WANTED to learn how to hike, read a compass, survive in the outdoors, and go camping!!! I'm a girl though, so my choice (back when I was 7 or 8) was the precursor to the Girl Scouts...the Blue Birds. It was a total crock of boring crap (to me), and although most boys wouldn't dare admit it (because they'd have to endure being called a sissy or ****** or worse...getting physially assaulted so they can learn how to "be a man"), there are probably a handful of boys that would rather have been in the Girl Scouts learning those things.
Gender is socially constructed (don't confuse gender w/sex here). The roles that boy/girls and men/women are "expected" to fill were constructed by society. There is no rule book stating that only men can be auto mechanics, but you sure don't see a lot of women in that job do you? And for the record...I was an automotive technician and then went on to teach it. First and only in the state I was living in at the time.
So, it's not a matter of "why would a girl WANT to be in the Boy Scouts." The issue is why is it even a question?
There is a coed group of Scouts known as Venture Scouts that do 'Boy Scout' types of activities. We were out on Roan this past week and ran into a Venture crew that had about 16 people and they were staying at Clyde Smith Shelter - at least 4 of them were girls. I think that organization caters to boys and girls aged 16-20, or something like that.
My daughter is 6, and given the choice she would much rather go on Boy Scout trips than those activities offered by the Girl Scouts (Daisy Scouts is what they are called at her age). She'd much prefer hiking and camping over that stuff...
I think it is perfectly understandable why Scouting is more popular for boys given the types of activites the troops typically go on. Venturing does give those opportunities to both, but at a later age.
Rocks 'n Roots
06-23-2006, 21:31
For impact and overuse purposes ATC asks groups to limit themselves to no more than 10.
grrickar
07-01-2006, 10:00
Jetboil responded - they gave me a UPS shipping number and they do want the stove back - it was not intentionally put in the companion cup. It hasn't been used so I suppose they will repackage and sell it.
Jetboil responded - they gave me a UPS shipping number and they do want the stove back - it was not intentionally put in the companion cup. It hasn't been used so I suppose they will repackage and sell it.
Dirty Hippies: 1
Grrickar: 0
:banana
RockyTrail
07-06-2006, 14:46
Venturing is open to boys and girls ages 14-20.
Many of them hike, camp, and do high-adventure trips.
http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-388.html
Rocks 'n Roots
07-06-2006, 15:51
I'll never argue against honesty.
Good for you.
Just Jeff
07-06-2006, 17:49
Yep - good on ya. I'm surprised they had you send it back, though - they could have gotten as much in good press as that stove is worth. Oh well.
Skidsteer
07-06-2006, 18:09
Yep - good on ya. I'm surprised they had you send it back, though - they could have gotten as much in good press as that stove is worth. Oh well.
Right on. ggrickar you should've told them you are WB member in good standing for more than two years.
You might've gotten free stoves to pass out to your friends. ;)
RockyTrail
07-06-2006, 21:42
If grickkar found an extra stove under the cup, think how many more must be out there.
Usually these type of things are assembled/packaged by minimum wage labor, somebody new on the job probably packaged a half days' worth of stoves before the supervisor caught wind of it and straightened them out!:) You did the right thing grickkar.
(its really a sales ploy to get everybody to buy a Jetboil looking for the extra stove;) hee hee)