handicapped accessible crappers

[mingo]

i just went to thomas knob shelter for the first time in a year or two and there was a new privy. which surprised me, first of all, because the old privy was fairly new and a new one didn't seem necessary but, secondly, because the new privy was handicapped accessible. i kid you not. it came complete with a wheelchair ramp and big silver handles, etc., just like you see in a handicapped accessible toilet stall. somebody was saying they'd heard that, by law now, hiking clubs have to make new privies handicapped accessible. has anybody else heard of this?

[Lone Wolf]

Yup. Pretty friggin wasteful.

[mingo]

yes, but what's the point?

[the goat]

you think that's bad? hike up to galehead hut in the white mts., pretty rugged terrain around it (AT-wise), also it is the most remote hut in the hut system (5 miles or so from the nearest trailhead).....good thing it has a wheelchair ramp out front!
an amc crew member told me it was b/c they accepted federal $$ for the renovation, and then had to comply w/ PDA standards...even at 3800 feet up a mountain.
i contend that anyone who could climb up to galehead in a wheelchair, wouldn't even bother using the ramp over the three steps up to the porch.

[Amigi'sLastStand]

Its on USFS land. It has to be handicap accessible. Kinda like when they closed all the strip clubs in Orlando until they made the stages HA. I kid you not. The ADA at work...

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

I think having a ramp is silly - there is no way you can get a wheelchair down most trails... I tried :(. However, the grab bars will be very useful to some of us that can get to the shelter / privy on our bad hips, knees, etc. Getting up from a sitting position involves the use of different muscles than hiking.

[Lone Wolf]

Good reason to get rid of all shelters and privys.

[hikerjohnd]

While it may seem silly, handicapped individuals have fought a long hard battle to get business to make things accessable for them. I never gave this much thought until my mother ended up in a wheel chair. Old regulations that offered exceptions were often abused by businesses who simply did not care about catering to clients who could not access their business. While I am not calling such businesses unscrupulous, as often the cost of implementaing changes were beyond small busness owners means, but the urge to save a dollar often prevailed. The new, blanket legislation offers businesses that can not afford to implement the changes an avenue for assistance and ensures that all new establishments will be compliant. Is this important for a privy in the backcountry? Probably not, but if one exception is made, the precident is set and other exceptions will follow.

[Ridge]

This is nothing more than a bunch of governmental BS. If you can't get to it in a wheelchair, whats the point? Next thing will be paving the AT, putting in elevators, blasting out rock to accommodate the width (goodbye Guillotine). I'm all for the provisions in commercial type areas. This is a little out of the commercial realm however.

[generoll]

kinda like having handicap parking spaces at gyms and sports clubs. don't people go there to exercise? it seems that most politicians and all regulators flee at the first sign of common sense.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

kinda like having handicap parking spaces at gyms and sports clubs. don't people go there to exercise? it seems that most politicians and all regulators flee at the first sign of common sense.As soon as I was able after my serious auto accident, I was going to a seniors' gym in a wheelchair. The gym had 18 Handicapped spaces on each side of the building and they were rarely empty. I had to use them to have enough room to deploy my wheelchair next to the driver's side of my car without damaging other vehicles. There were at least a dozen people in wheelchairs who worked out there regularly - most drove themself there as I did.

Later, I moved on to a regular gym and still used the handicapped parking. I didn't need it walking in, but I was sore and exhausted when leaving and often had some problem walking after the extensive work-outs prescribed in an attempt to rehab my right leg.

I think an exception should be granted for the use of ramps if a location can clearly demonstrate that a wheelchair cannot navigate to the beginning of the ramp. This would allow exceptions for places like backcountry privies and shelters, but make it exceeding difficult for businesses to get around complying. I'm all for keeping the grab bars. Those of us with bad hips, knees, etc. who hike can and will use them. Some of you will one day be in our shoes and will understand that having mobility issues isn't a death sentence to your hiking life.

[partly cloudy]

I just ran into that problem constructiong a shelter along the NCT in Pa. No details were given, just make it handicap accessable. I found a document on the forest service web page that explaines it, FSTAG. The shelters must be between 17 and 19 inches off the ground and have a minumin of 32 inch doorway. That's all for a shelter. BUT for a privy. WOW 60 inches turn-around room, grab handles, 3 inches along side the seat, either side, back rest, steps.
Most shelters and privies along a trail are unaccessable but the common sense has gone out the window. The forest service does not make exceptions on this idea. The FSTAG or FSORAG has not been accepted as law but it is accepted by the FS and will be implimented at all times.
I got a lot of help and insight from Tom Johnson, pres. of PATC. He's run into this and told me that any shelter or privy that has to be re-built along th AT will be handicap accessable. Good luck with Dick's Dome or Devil's Racecourse side trail.
The southwest Va. co-ordinator for the AT attended a meeting last year with the FS and this subject was brought up, known as "the middle of no-where" rule. They will not budge.
Talked with Tom Gilbert, NPS co-ordinator fo the NCT and Iron Age trails. He told me that he was involved in building a fire service emergancy hut out west and it had to handicap accessable.
I agree, common sense has been kicked out of Washington and replaced with special interest groups, we're one. Much money has been spent on useless items so to apease "everyone." Need less to say, you can't please everyone.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

BUT for a privy. WOW 60 inches turn-around room, grab handles, 3 inches along side the seat, either side, back rest, steps.If they allowed the privies not to be wheelchair accessible the 60" turn around room and 4" steps would go away. I wonder if the Dept. of Health and Human Service could be persuaded to make an exception in the regulations for 'middle of nowhere' sites. It is their regs that all structures belonging to entities receiving federal funds must follow.

[LIhikers]

This insanity happens on a state level too. The bathroom had to be removed from the aircraft hangar that I work in because it wasn't handicap accesable. Evidently it's better that no has access to a bathroom that just some people. Of course the plastic Porta-Potty that they replaced the bathroom with isn't handicap accessible, so go figure. Another fine example of politicians and bureaucrats at work.

[The Solemates]

this is hilarious. ive never heard of such stupid rules.

[hikerjohnd]

This insanity happens on a state level too. The bathroom had to be removed from the aircraft hangar that I work in because it wasn't handicap accesable. Evidently it's better that no has access to a bathroom that just some people. Of course the plastic Porta-Potty that they replaced the bathroom with isn't handicap accessible, so go figure. Another fine example of politicians and bureaucrats at work.

I'd be willing to bet someone along the line did not want to spend the money to make the bathroom accessible, therefore it was removed.

I have seen handicapped accessible porta-potties - they are huge!

Anyway - I resubmit the need to not make exceptions. As has been the case in the past, one exception will lead to others. The blanket decision for the ADA means there will be no way a business can avoid catering to disabled clients' needs. Is it really a problem to build privies in the backcountry that are accessible? If the answer is yes, then perhaps we should stop building them...

[LIhikers]

Is it really a problem to build privies in the backcountry that are accessible? If the answer is yes, then perhaps we should stop building them...


Now maybe that's the best solution. No more shelters and no more privies. Of course that still leaves the question of the trail itself. Should it be wide, paved, and have a very shallow grade where it goes up and down hills? And what if a blow down occurs that prevents passage of a wheelchair? Should that section of trail be closed to everyone until the volunteer trail maintainer has time to clear it? Maybe add a curb along both sides of the trail so blind people can know where the edge is, and demand that all signs along the trail be in brail as well. You think I'm being sarcastic? I'm not really, I'm just wondering how far we should take this?

Now to reallity. My wife and I have a friend who is blind. She has hiked sections of NY and NJ with us and has used shelters and privies along the way. Never once has she suggested that things should be changed. So doesn't that make those facilities handicap accessible or are there only certain handicaps that have to be accomodated?

[SGT Rock]

Bureaucrats at work. They hate to make an exception to a rule. My experience with them is they would rather not have to think about making the exception but would love to spend the time enforcing a rule where it should need to be. Weird mindset - sort of like a controlling Type A personality I guess.

Speaking of the gym issue. When I was at Fort Polk we have a set of one way streets that are blocked off in the morning so units could run unit PT. Worked great because you have a formation that takes up a whole lane + of traffic going one way, and you also have people in smaller formations and individuals passing larger formations - and to do that effectively you really need two lanes of traffic for one way flow and having the roads blocked off made it safer for the thousands of soldiers out there during PT hours as well as making it better for breathing without all that traffic exhaust while you try to run. It was only about 2 miles or so of road on either side of the median that was blocked, so you could still get around post just fine during PT hours. That was until people complained they couldn't get to the gym in the morning to work out because the gym was on those streets. So then they did a complicated re-route of the street running route and actually made it so you couldn't run on that approximately 300 yard section just so people could drive to the gym. It really monkeyed up the whole works and only confused the other drivers because the road block points changed - people who were not from there routinely ended up driving on one of the roads and couldn't figure out why people were so pissed off at them as they tried to drive through formations.

And the asinine thing about it was there is parking lot that is nearly always empty at that time of the morning that is only about 100 yards away from that gym. So instead of making the few people that wanted to go to the gym between 0630 and 0730 walk a hundred yards, they screwed up the running route for a few thousand people. It never made any sense to me until now, since it is a federal facility and has to accommodate handicap, they probably did all that just in case one person in a wheelchair might get denied the chance to park right outside the door between 0630 and 0730.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

From someone who has been in a wheelchair and going to the gym - if you can't roll yourself 100 yards to the facility (assuming it is fairly level and paved), you aren't ready to be working out.


Anyway - I resubmit the need to not make exceptions. As has been the case in the past, one exception will lead to others. The blanket decision for the ADA means there will be no way a business can avoid catering to disabled clients' needs. Is it really a problem to build privies in the backcountry that are accessible? If the answer is yes, then perhaps we should stop building them...I'm an activist for handicapped-accessibility (not for me, but for my mother who has advanced Parkinsons), but I think there needs to be compromise in situations like backcountry facilities. Not compromising leads to people having feelings like those expressed in this thread about providing handicapped-access at all.

It is ridiculous to require a backcountry privy to have a 60" turn-around radius (needed to navigate a wheelchair) when there is no way a wheelchair could get to the privy because the trail itself is not wheelchair accessible. It is equally ridiculous to require the backrest. No one who needs it can access it. While grab bars could be useful, I submit that anyone who has made it the a backcountry shelter knows how to go potty without them.

TMI Warning Hell's bells, I've had to learn how to potty without being able to squat unassisted to hike / backpack. It isn't easy to do one's business and clean up while hanging on to an overhead branch with one hand, but it is doable - and those with disabilities who really want to be in the backcountry will learn how to do it to be there. End TMI Warning

As LIhikers says, his blind friend hiked with him and his wife. She certainly had to figure out how to do many, many tasks that come very easily to sighted hikers to be there.

[TOW]

i just went to thomas knob shelter for the first time in a year or two and there was a new privy. which surprised me, first of all, because the old privy was fairly new and a new one didn't seem necessary but, secondly, because the new privy was handicapped accessible. i kid you not. it came complete with a wheelchair ramp and big silver handles, etc., just like you see in a handicapped accessible toilet stall. somebody was saying they'd heard that, by law now, hiking clubs have to make new privies handicapped accessible. has anybody else heard of this?i think they meant "mentally handicapped"...............

[Alligator]

A privy is a convenience, provided so that hikers don't have to squat in the woods. If you are going to put in a luxury for the able bodied, there's no reason why it can't be built to accomodate the disabled. Quit being selfish.

I'll tell you my own little story. I was helping construct a platform privy a few years ago. The new regs were being disseminated regarding handicapped privies. It doesn't cost much more to do it right. We were laying out the privy before transport. We had all the materials to make it to code. It would have required a little more support in the field for the extension of the plywood platform. Well, this new layout was a little difficult and different but doable. Instead, the guy in charge knowingly cuts off the extra piece of plywood. Now we don't have enough materials. I heard a bunch of the above arguments that day too.

Oh wait, another. A couple years ago a group brought 1 maybe 2 wheelchair bound individuals up to one of the huts in the Whites. How certain are you exactly which shelters are 'middle of no where'. There are roads crisscrossing the AT in numerous places, and side trails galore. Who's to say the person is alone, without some aid. Maybe yes maybe no. Who's to say that aren't on a much longer timeframe either? Maybe they're taking all day to go 2 miles. But when they get they there, if it's good enough for cold-hearted folks to have the luxury of a seat, the disabled would be damn more deserving of access if they made it there too.

Maybe you don't need to retrofit everything, but as it's going in, it's not a big expense. Besides, the roominess is much nicer.

Regarding the handicap spaces, it's not only about the distance. The spaces are larger, allowing the disabled easier egress.

Physical therapy isn't just about moving the chair. It could be quite different muscle groups. And often it should be started quickly. Maybe that 100 yards is a lot. What's harder, that extra distance the able bodied has to walk, or the extra distance the disabled has to go? I am just amazed when hikers bring it up. Holy ****, you have to walk an extra 20 yards? Are you kidding me? Consider it a blue blaze.

Count your blessings if you don't have a disability.

[hikerjohnd]

A privy is a convenience, provided so that hikers don't have to squat in the woods. If you are going to put in a luxury for the able bodied, there's no reason why it can't be built to accomodate the disabled. Quit being selfish.

...But when they get they there, if it's good enough for cold-hearted folks to have the luxury of a seat, the disabled would be damn more deserving of access if they made it there too.

...Maybe you don't need to retrofit everything, but as it's going in, it's not a big expense. Besides, the roominess is much nicer.
Amen and amen.

[D'Artagnan]

This does not strictly pertain to privies, but I believe it is relevant given the direction this thread has headed. A couple weekends ago I was heading south through Grayson Highlands when I encountered a woman pushing one of those jogging strollers with the three large tires. From some distance, the child she was pushing appeared to be about a 5 or 6 year old girl. The lady was having a great deal of difficulty maneuvering this thing over the rocks and she was sweating like a, like a, well she was sweating a lot.

I was curious (and admittedly somewhat incredulous) why she was going to such extraordinary lengths just to keep a child from walking. As she got closer, I then noticed the little girl's legs had braces on them.

I was very moved by this act of selflessness and this mother's determination that her child would enjoy the beauty of an environment most children in her circumstance would never be able to experience.

I would never advocate something as patently asinine as paving the AT, but if adding a few more inches to a privy makes it more accessible to people with mobility issues, then big whoop, make the damn thing bigger.

And as far as parking spaces for disabled folks is concerned, we might consider that given the present situation overseas, some of those folks utilizing the spaces up front are the very folks who have been injured to keep our fat butts freely pushing carts up and down the aisles at the Super Wal-Mart. From what I've seen at our local W-M, walking a few extra steps to get in the door ain't gonna hurt many of us. Quit your whining and thank God you can do what many can only dream about.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Very well said, Alligator. You have certainly given me something to think about. Thank you for broadening my mind and enlarging my mental horizens.

[mweinstone]

privys and shelters are too missused to rationalize keeping them. and since too many privys comprimize the water source anyway,....chuck em all. i dont need a house and a bathroom while hiking.

[alanthealan]

privys and shelters are too missused to rationalize keeping them. and since too many privys comprimize the water source anyway,....chuck em all. i dont need a house and a bathroom while hiking.

Ever stepped in human ****?

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Well-designed and placed privies make a lot of sense in heavy use areas. They are far less likely to pollute the water source than the traditional method because not everyone practices good techniques (getting far enough from the trail, camping area and / or water source - burying deep enough).

While I agree with mweinstone's premise that shelters are seriously misused, I also know that a significant percentage of today's hikers rely on the shelter system as their primary shelter and enjoy the social aspect of camping with large groups. The shelter system keeps social hikers from doing more damage by camping en mass at a wider variety of spots instead of at the current shelter locations - meaning more fire rings, more trampled vegetation and more polluted water sources.