View Full Version : Carry in/Carry Out or Leave No Trace
Amigi'sLastStand
06-23-2006, 16:49
Which philosophy do you subscribe to? :-?
I have been thinking about this question a lot lately. They may seem similiar, but I think they are very different past the obvious.
CICO is more conservation-based, and a little more realistic than the esoteric/obtuse LNT. JMHO.
For example, LNT clearly discourages poles, cat holes, eyehooks in trees or shelters, shelters themselves ( LW ),
Let us know what you think of each, or which you think is better, and which one you personally subscribe to.
Thanks,
Chuck
Just Jeff
06-23-2006, 16:57
I think anything that leaves permanent damage, like eye-hooks in trees, is a no-no on an established trail. Less impact if you're off-trail, but still damages the trees.
And if there's a place where I have to pack out my poo, I'll hike somewhere else. Not doing it.
Other than that, I strive for LNT and just get as close as I can. I usually carry out the garbage I see so I guess that evens out my catholes! (Is that moral relativism?)
Amigi'sLastStand
06-23-2006, 17:11
And if there's a place where I have to pack out my poo, I'll hike somewhere else. Not doing it.
Other than that, I strive for LNT and just get as close as I can. I usually carry out the garbage I see so I guess that evens out my catholes! (Is that moral relativism?)
I agree, my poo goes in the ground with the TP. I did that crap ( pun intended ) in the military, aint happening now. It WILL biodegrade fast enough for me ( six months to two years depending ). But I always carry one much more than I carry in, so it balances for me as well.
And yes, that is moral relativism, you Sartreian.;) Ah, existentialism, where would we be without it. :-?
Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-23-2006, 17:24
I don't do things like put screws / nails in trees, build new fire rings, or construct backcountry furniture or other artificial structures (except water bars and bridges on trails). I don't normally cut limbs or trees (except to clear a trail) and only build campfires when there is a need for one (to dry wet gear or for warmth). I bury my poo and TP; eat berries, ramps, etc; and carry all of my trash (and usually more) out.
fishinfred
06-23-2006, 17:27
I like the slogan on the back of the original WB TShirts
"LEAVE ONLY FOOTPRINTS" ...... and if everyone did we wouldnt have to carry out their trash left behind.....
I believe in the "Leave it better than you found it " rule and follow it both Hiking and car camping........wish everyone did ! Sure seems to be alot of crap everywheres these days .
No respect for nature and it really sucks !:mad:
LNT,CICO,and LOF..... Its all good!
Peace
FF
Amigi'sLastStand
06-23-2006, 18:15
We all agree "it's all good". And I totally agree with "better than you found it." But specifically your feelings between the two, CICO and LNT.
Leave only footprints, um, thats just not realistic. No poles, no berry eating, no cat holes ( ever try crapping in a zip lock and then have to put it in your pack? Not many of you have, I'm sure. But try it sometime, and chant to yourself "leave no trace". ), no bear bag hanging if you have to clear a branch or two to find a spot at 9pm, no pine needle pads, etc.
I am not an idealist at all, and demand of myself to never be a hypocrite. Maybe thats what I dont like about LNT. It strives for a means and end that can never be met. I do love the Boy Scout's "Find it better than you left it." Now that is realistic.:D
I think anything that leaves permanent damage, like eye-hooks in trees, is a no-no on an established trail. Less impact if you're off-trail, but still damages the trees.
And if there's a place where I have to pack out my poo, I'll hike somewhere else. Not doing it.
Other than that, I strive for LNT and just get as close as I can. I usually carry out the garbage I see so I guess that evens out my catholes! (Is that moral relativism?)
Leave no trace makes no sense unless -- as your post suggests -- you ignore the ordinary sense of the words. There is no way to logically define leave no trace as meaning only "permanent damage." A trace includes the imprint of your boots in mud; your cat holes, the holes your walking stick makes with every step; the twigs you break off thoughtlessly while talking to fellow hikers, the imprint of a tent on the grass.
Judging from the increase in litter since the "leave no trace" message replaced Carry in, Carry out, I suspect many hikers realize this and simply tune out the message.
ATC and other trail organizations, I believe, have abandoned a workable hiker message and replaced it with an impossible to achieve and largely ignored message. Paul Petzolt (sp) who invented the concept, abandoned it towards the end of his long life because he realized the impossibility of complying.
Essentially, "leave no trace" is a business that supplies jobs for many "instructors," teachers and administrators. Technically the words are copyrighted and trademarked. You can't legally even teach the concept without paying money to join the organization.
Weary
And yes, that is moral relativism, you Sartreian.;) Ah, existentialism, where would we be without it. :-?
You wouldn't ask that question if you had ever seen Sartre's kitchen! :eek:
SGT Rock
06-24-2006, 03:49
I tend to agree with Weary in some of what he says. It is impossible to "Leave no Trace" since the trail itself is a trace of human existence, as are shelters, fire rings, and everything else human out in the woods. And even the "Leave No Trace" ideal may not seem like a 100% sound idea if you want to leave compost like apple cores or cat-holed human waste since even that little bit of organic refuse is a trace of human passing. There is TRACE everywhere that people have been out there. Any dog or tracker worth his sand could probably track a specific hiker all the way up the trail based on their trace.
And if you go to a camp site or a shelter and there is a bag of trash already started, or some trash in the fire ring, or a pile of "extra gear" that someone had valiantly decided to leave and donate to someone else in case they need it (and we really know that means they got on the trail and realized it was useless stuff making their pack heavy and they decided to ditch it) then there is already a spot where humans have impacted in a way that to most of is unacceptable, but if you are the careless hiker then there is ample justification to drop more stuff since this place obviously has lots of trace and must not be a part of the area covered by "Leave No Trace". The spot has become a spot just like a trail head where humans can do what they will and someone magically comes out there and cleans up after them like their mother.
Add to that I don't even see that message by trail heads. I bring that up because back in the day there were always signs for "Pack it in, pack it out!" at every trail head I would go to as a boy. Signs to "Pack it in, Pack it out. Leave the Wilderness Better Than You Find It" would be a great idea, but then that would be more "Trace" at the trail heads to worry about. Well maybe that would be taking the definition of trace too far. It is a shame you even need a sign. And I am 100% positive if I put a trash can at my trail head parking spot it would probably be overflowing with stuff every time I got there from people cleaning their cars out and not from people packing out trash.
I think except for a few people willing to sit down and listen and figure out what it means, "Leave No Trace" is another empty slogan on the ears of the masses. I would rather go back to "Pack it in, Pack it out! Leave the Wilderness Better Than You Find It!"
Shutterbug
06-24-2006, 12:16
Which philosophy do you subscribe to? :-?
It seems to me that "Leave No Trace" is a broader concept. "Carry In/Carry Out" is fine when it comes to litter, but doesn't cover such things as creating piles of rocks -- cairns. As I have hiked, particularly in other countries, there seem to be more and more cairns. Of course, one could make the same argument about white blazes on the trees.
Just Jeff
06-24-2006, 12:30
Of course, one could make the same argument about white blazes on the trees.
True. Out here, cairns are often the only trail markers...which makes it safer to be in the woods (for most people, anyway), which encourages more use, which (among other things) motivates people to get involved in conservation b/c they're safely enjoying their wilderness.
In that regard, I wouldn't consider cairns a bad thing b/c they serve a purpose, even though they're technically a trace just like a white blaze.
fishinfred
06-24-2006, 12:41
Yep its sad but true some 'fools' need to have rules put in their face to get the message across and I think by having a message posted at every shelter "YOU Packed it in, YOU Pack it out " is a good idea , not that that would stop everyone but when there are more than a couple people at a shelter I think it would deter a few from breaking a rule that is there for all to see???
As far as catholes I feel that if you go off the trail far enough and dig a deep enough hole and cover it back up ,kick a few leaves and brush over it that it pretty much leaves no trace .....maybe not organically but you can't stop natures call and I havent met a hiker yet that packs out their poop in a ziplock....but I have stepped off the trail near look out points and found piles of crap and TP just sitting there ,which is unexceptable and disgusting!
There will always be some trace of humans passing but whatever it takes to reduce that trace would be a good thing for all.
ANOTHER THING....
People who leave their trash at shelters whether in fire rings or bags should be fined big money and the funds put towards the folks who end up dragging it out ! (and offer rewards for the hikers/maintainers who report them too )
Fishinfred
Shutterbug
06-24-2006, 17:10
In that regard, I wouldn't consider cairns a bad thing b/c they serve a purpose, even though they're technically a trace just like a white blaze.
I agree that it is appropriate to have a cairn where it is necessary to mark the trail like across the tablelands on Mt. Katahdin, but I object to cairns that are erected for the specific purposes of leaving a mark. For example, there are a lot of cairns near the top of Mt. Washington that don't mark any trail.
When I was in New Zealand, I saw a lot of cairns in various places. When I inquired, the locals said that it is a Scottish custom to leave a pile of rocks in locations where you have a good time so that you may return to the same spot again.
I assume that there are some Scottish people out here in Washington State too. There are too many cairns along the trials on Mt. Rainier where they really aren't needed to mark the way.
I am not a fan of carrying out my crap, but I have a friend who hiked a lot in arid areas and the decomp rates are non existant. He carries a poop tube. It is a piece of PVC 6 inches in diameter and has a permanant cap on one end. Length is about 9 inches and then has a screw on cap on that end. He does his business into the tube and screws the cap back back on. I don't imagine that the smell is very good after a day or two, but it beats leaving petrified little piles every where while he is out there and is better than using a Baggie. I believe he puts a bag liner inside it to assist in emptying it.
Amigi'sLastStand
06-25-2006, 10:55
I am not a fan of carrying out my crap, but I have a friend who hiked a lot in arid areas and the decomp rates are non existant. He carries a poop tube. It is a piece of PVC 6 inches in diameter and has a permanant cap on one end. Length is about 9 inches and then has a screw on cap on that end. He does his business into the tube and screws the cap back back on. I don't imagine that the smell is very good after a day or two, but it beats leaving petrified little piles every where while he is out there and is better than using a Baggie. I believe he puts a bag liner inside it to assist in emptying it.
Dig hole, crap, bury, eat, repeat. I'll still decompose, albiet, slowly.
Tell your friend to patent the Poop Tube. That is a great idea, even though I still wouldnt do it. "Now available in S, M, L, and for hikers, XL."
Seriously, if you put a couple nuggets of charcoal with some lime or baking soda in the tube, it wont smell so bad. I kept a charcoal nug in my ziplocs in the military.
Just Jeff
06-25-2006, 12:17
Kayakers have been using poop tubes for years. They'll often have a hose nozzle on the permanently attached end so you can just squirt it out instead of trying to spray down in there from the same hole for emptying/cleaning - could get nasty w/o that hole. They also use coffee filters between each use, but I'm not sure how that works - I guess your poop just slides it down or something.
Kayakers have been using poop tubes for years. They'll often have a hose nozzle on the permanently attached end so you can just squirt it out instead of trying to spray down in there from the same hole for emptying/cleaning - could get nasty w/o that hole.
Like a cake decorating tool? :cool:
Do they have attachments so you can make little stars and poop rosettas? :-?
Just Jeff
06-25-2006, 12:32
DAMNIT, Austexs - my SAMRH must have stopped working!
Amigi'sLastStand
06-25-2006, 14:58
Like a cake decorating tool? :cool:
Do they have attachments so you can make little stars and poop rosettas? :-?I almost pooped myself reading that. Wheres my tube?
Just Jeff
06-25-2006, 15:01
If it was up your butt you'd know it...
As others have posted, Leave No Trace is a non profit organization organization. It was developed in cooperation with the National Park Service, National Forest Service, US Fish and Wildlife Service, and BLM. it advocates minimizing impacts and has 7 broad principals. How these principals are applied depends on the location and activity.
Carry in/Carry out is part of one prinical: Dispose of waste properly. This includes pack out all trash, leftover food, and litter. In highly impacted areas it may mean packing out human waste. However, in most areas, catholes are fine. Just don't leave a mine field. (maybe pack out toilet paper?). The other part of dispose of waste properly is to use biodegradable soap, and dispose of dishwater by scattering strained dishwater at least 200 feet away from any stream or lake.
Amigi'sLastStand
06-26-2006, 11:24
If it was up your butt you'd know it...
:o And that's where it was, but I had my tin hat on. I think I'm blocking my own mind, but how would I know I was blocking my own mind if I'm thinking that I'm blocking my own mind..... Ahhhhh a Mobius pattern.:eek:
Just Jeff
06-26-2006, 12:33
So you had to stick your tin hat up there to find it? Pull your head out, Amigi. :p
dougmeredith
06-26-2006, 13:43
I agree with most of what Weary said.
Carry in/carry out makes complete sense. LNT, with talk about avoiding loud noises and bright colors is just a little too radical for me. It seems to be about a small group trying to impose their wilderness view on others. Many of the concepts are good of course, but the my-way-only approach just doesn't work for me. And as others have mentioned, the slogan is unrealistic.
Doug
Someone mentioned that LNT might also include omitting the White Blazes marking the trail. Heck, we don't need blazes, just follow the toilet paper and cigarette butts to Katahdin.
Someone mentioned that LNT might also include omitting the White Blazes marking the trail. Heck, we don't need blazes, just follow the toilet paper and cigarette butts to Katahdin.
A couple of years ago, a thru-hiker counted the number of blazes along the AT. It worked out to one every 120 feet or so. Obviously, as an established trail, there are many places where it is overblazed. So, reducing the number of blazes is a good idea.
That being said, I've never read anything in the LNT principals that relate to trail maintenance. However, the guidelines for wilderness areas do mention reducing trail maintenance. So, reducing the blazing would certainly be one part of this.
Skidsteer
06-26-2006, 17:39
Someone mentioned that LNT might also include omitting the White Blazes marking the trail. Heck, we don't need blazes, just follow the toilet paper and cigarette butts to Katahdin.
Hey Ridge!
You forgot dog turds. Are you getting mellow? ;)
Hey Ridge!
You forgot dog turds. Are you getting mellow? ;)
I just wasn't sure if the dog hikers here at WB had dogs that crapped. If they did have crapping dogs they'd swear it didn't stink. Or, the dogs were trained to wipe its own butt and properly bury the crap a min of 100ft from the trail and then pack out the used TP. So yea, I guess I am getting mellow.
LNT is the best for the trail
LNT is the best for the trail
It surely would be if enough hikers abided by the message. Unfortunately the evidence is increasing that it's a concept that is largely ignored, mostly, I suspect, because it is a concept that no one can realistically achieve..
Weary
It surely would be if enough hikers abided by the message. Unfortunately the evidence is increasing that it's a concept that is largely ignored, mostly, I suspect, because it is a concept that no one can realistically achieve..
Weary
I gotta disagree with you on this one, at least in part.
First, in general, I've found that most thru-hikers are very respectful of the AT and everything that goes with that. So, they do practice the LNT principals. I've seen more abuses with the weekend crowd.
Second, LNT is a set of principals, not rules. And these principals are applied differently depending on the area and usage. For example, human waste is always a hot button issue. In the east, you can comply with LNT by using privies, or cat-holes, provided everything is buried and not left as a mine field. But these practices may not be acceptable out west where it is arid, and there is high use.
I gotta disagree with you on this one, at least in part.
First, in general, I've found that most thru-hikers are very respectful of the AT and everything that goes with that. So, they do practice the LNT principals. I've seen more abuses with the weekend crowd. .....
Which of course is the problem. The words have no intrinsic meaning, so the typical trail user tunes them out. The weekend crowd represents 99+ % of trail users 3,000 vs 3,000,000.
Sadly some thru hikers also tend to add trash to already trashed sites. Trail use in general is down, trash is up. It's obvious that as the message changed -- in Maine from "carry in, carry out" to "LNT" -- hiker practices changed. We now spend $40,000 a year hiring caretakers and ridgerunners to deliver the message that once was delivered by a 50 cent sign at the trail heads and posted on the shelter walls.
The next time you are on a popular backpacking trail ask people you meet what the letters "LNT" mean. Most won't have a clue.
......... The weekend crowd represents 99+ % of trail users 3,000 vs 3,000,000.......
Sadly some thru hikers also tend to add trash to already trashed sites. Trail use in general is down, trash is up.............
...........The next time you are on a popular backpacking trail ask people you meet what the letters "LNT" mean. Most won't have a clue.
I totally agree. And, don't be surprised if you ask a younger hiker what "LNT" means they reply by saying "Is that a new kind of drug?"
I totally agree. And, don't be surprised if you ask a younger hiker what "LNT" means they reply by saying "Is that a new kind of drug?"
A thought. Just ask the younguns if they have tried "LNT" and how they liked it?
Alligator
06-27-2006, 13:39
Paper or liquid:confused: ?
Unfortunately, LNT is not as habit forming as other things used on the trail.
SGT Rock
06-27-2006, 13:43
Not only that, a lot of my friends up the holler in Tennessee spend a lot of time in the mountains: fishing, hunting, four wheeling, walking in the woods, and some even horse pack on the trails of the Smokies. The few times it has come up they never heard of such a thing as the "Leave No Trace Program" but when I explained to pack out trash they got it.
Leave no trace, it only gets to those that it gets to. It might amaze some of you that hear it all the time that it is not a common idea to everyone else in the country. Call it backpacker cultural ethnocentrism.
Paper or liquid:confused: ?
Microdot. Barrel.
Which of course is the problem. The words have no intrinsic meaning, so the typical trail user tunes them out. The weekend crowd represents 99+ % of trail users 3,000 vs 3,000,000.
Sadly some thru hikers also tend to add trash to already trashed sites. Trail use in general is down, trash is up. It's obvious that as the message changed -- in Maine from "carry in, carry out" to "LNT" -- hiker practices changed. We now spend $40,000 a year hiring caretakers and ridgerunners to deliver the message that once was delivered by a 50 cent sign at the trail heads and posted on the shelter walls.
The next time you are on a popular backpacking trail ask people you meet what the letters "LNT" mean. Most won't have a clue.
Trash breeds trash. Have just one piece of trash, and suddenly it multiplies.
And thru-hikers wonder why GMC and AMC charge at caretaker campsites. Both you and I have probably been backpacking since before there were caretakers. And we remember that the popular camp sites then were trashed. I for one, am glad to pay for a caretaker, because I know the site isn't going to be a s***hole.
Trash breeds trash. Have just one piece of trash, and suddenly it multiplies.
And thru-hikers wonder why GMC and AMC charge at caretaker campsites. Both you and I have probably been backpacking since before there were caretakers. And we remember that the popular camp sites then were trashed. I for one, am glad to pay for a caretaker, because I know the site isn't going to be a s***hole.
I'm not opposed to the idea of hiring caretakers. And through the heavily used Whites, with its restrictive habitat enough hikers come through to pay the cost. That is not true in Maine, where there are hundreds of bootleg campsites and no ability to restrict hikers to specific campsites on land that is mostly owned by either the national or state governments.
MATC members spend hundred of hours every year begging for money. We have a $150,000 annual budget and 600 members paying dues of $15 a year -- a total of $9,000.
A few hundred of us donate money, maintain the trails, fight nearby development intrusions on the trail, raise money to buffer the narrow trail corridor, hire leaders for special trail maintenance projects and do the countless other things needed to make Maine the best 270 miles of the entire trail.
There are several ways to lessen the burden, in my opinion. Certainly, an anti-litter program than resonates better than "LNT" with most ordinary hikers would help.
But nothing works like cold hard cash.
To help finance general club costs, the caretakers, the ridgerunners, special trail crews, and, most importantly, the battle to keep an industrial wind energy energy project off Redington open:
www.matc.org
To help the Maine AT land trust protect the high peaks of Maine near the trail open:
www.matlt.org
Weary
I don't know which section of the AT gets used the most, but here in Georgia the AT surely gets its fair share of use and abuse. It wouldn't bother me if a fee structure, like the AMC Huts, was implemented down here. The woods are full of hikers.
Skidsteer
06-27-2006, 23:16
I don't know which section of the AT gets used the most, but here in Georgia the AT surely gets its fair share of use and abuse. It wouldn't bother me if a fee structure, like the AMC Huts, was implemented down here. The woods are full of hikers.
Speak for yourself. I'd rather carry out OPT(other people's trash).
alanthealan
06-28-2006, 00:20
LNT makes since to me, but that is what I was brought up on. I feel the principles are the same however, but LNT is more inclusive expounding the message to not just trash, but better reflecting the “authority of the resource”. Carry in carry out is what are state parks use for there trashcan-less program. http://www.lnt.org/about/history.html (http://www.lnt.org/about/history.html)
The principles by the way are:
Plan ahead and prepare
Travel and camp on durable surfaces
Dispose of waste properly
Leave what you find (artifacts, gems, etc)
Minimize campfire impact
Respect wildlife
Be considerate of other visitors
Amigi'sLastStand
06-28-2006, 01:11
LNT makes since to me, but that is what I was brought up on. I feel the principles are the same however, but LNT is more inclusive expounding the message to not just trash, but better reflecting the “authority of the resource”. Carry in carry out is what are state parks use for there trashcan-less program. http://www.lnt.org/about/history.html (http://www.lnt.org/about/history.html)
The principles by the way are:
Plan ahead and prepare
Travel and camp on durable surfaces
Dispose of waste properly
Leave what you find (artifacts, gems, etc)
Minimize campfire impact
Respect wildlife
Be considerate of other visitors
:-? I purposefully did not list the seven principles when I posted the thread starter. The reason was simple. Ppl dont remember seven principles. They remember the catchy slogan.
LNT, ppl look at and say, "What the heck does that mean?" Imagine see that at a trailhead and you'd never seen it before. Would you get it?
CINO/LIBTYFI are simple and easy to follow and practice. It's also much older the modern fiduciary pratice of not having garbage cans in parks.
I was looking for ppl's feelings about the philosophy of each, and the ability to follow the slogans.
Even the seven principles are full of ambiguity. "Respect wildlife"?, "leave what you find"? gems? NOT!, whats a durable surface in the woods? a stone slab? I know what each intends to mean, but then again, I dont need to be told these things. The message is put out there for the ppl who dont have a clue as to how to behave in the wilderness. And trust me, they aint following it.
mtnbums2000
06-28-2006, 18:34
Today's society is full of lazy, inconsiderate, selfish a**holes!!! That's why the trails are littered. Most people think that the world owes them something for some reason. So that's how they justify leaving trash everywhere. Most don't even take the time to read the policies/rules of the wilderness. They just figure that some trail angel will come along and pick up their trash. I'm no trail angel but I've packed out my share of other people's trash from the A.T. especially in Georgia.
I use to follow LNT as much as possible and then I realized that for me it wasn't possible. For 2 years I packed out my crap in a ziplock and I wondered what was more enviromentaly friendly...craping in a cat hole or throwing away all of those plastic bags. Yea you can clean them or recycle them but the thought of that makes me cringe. Plus carrying out your crap no matter how many baggies you put it in is just not sanitary feeling IMO. So now I dig a 6-12 inch cat hole do my business and pack out the TP. I can live with that. Most everything else with LNT I can deal with. But I do feel that in todays time the more simple the statement is the more people will abide by it. So policies like "Pack it in- Pack it out" cover the basics on the trash issue. And the trash issue seems to be the biggest problem in the wilderness everywhere now a day's. Talking on cell phones around other hikers is about as annoying as leaving your trash in the shelter to me. "Be considerate of other visitors" is a hard task for alot people.
I think if someone is stupid enough to litter at all then they should be shot on the spot...cause they are taken up valuable oxygen.
Simple common sense is hard to find in humans in our era.
Amigi'sLastStand
06-28-2006, 19:28
Today's society is full of lazy, inconsiderate, selfish a**holes!!! That's why the trails are littered. Most people think that the world owes them something for some reason. So that's how they justify leaving trash everywhere. Most don't even take the time to read the policies/rules of the wilderness. They just figure that some trail angel will come along and pick up their trash. I'm no trail angel but I've packed out my share of other people's trash from the A.T. especially in Georgia.
I use to follow LNT as much as possible and then I realized that for me it wasn't possible. For 2 years I packed out my crap in a ziplock and I wondered what was more enviromentaly friendly...craping in a cat hole or throwing away all of those plastic bags. Yea you can clean them or recycle them but the thought of that makes me cringe. Plus carrying out your crap no matter how many baggies you put it in is just not sanitary feeling IMO. So now I dig a 6-12 inch cat hole do my business and pack out the TP. I can live with that. Most everything else with LNT I can deal with. But I do feel that in todays time the more simple the statement is the more people will abide by it. So policies like "Pack it in- Pack it out" cover the basics on the trash issue. And the trash issue seems to be the biggest problem in the wilderness everywhere now a day's. Talking on cell phones around other hikers is about as annoying as leaving your trash in the shelter to me. "Be considerate of other visitors" is a hard task for alot people.
I think if someone is stupid enough to litter at all then they should be shot on the spot...cause they are taken up valuable oxygen.
Simple common sense is hard to find in humans in our era.
Well said.
[quote=mtnbums2000 ...........I think if someone is stupid enough to litter at all then they should be shot on the spot... .....[/quote]
Who's going to pack out the shot hiker??? Or, who's going to dig a large cat-hole??? I guess we could place a trail sign around his/her neck and have his/her fingers pointing the way!!! (I didn't want the girls to be left out)
mtnbums2000
06-28-2006, 20:13
If I shoot em I'll skin em and we can all eat em. JK I guess we shouldn't shot them on the spot but there has to be something that we can do hmm...
Just Jeff
06-28-2006, 20:19
Leave him to fertilize the environment...