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Almost There
06-23-2006, 23:59
Something I noticed on my hike this month was the number of chainsmoking thruhikers who kept leaving the their filtered butts in the fire pits and on the trail. One afternoon I watched a hiker throw 5 butts into one fire pit within a span of 20 minutes. Personally neither cellphones or butts bother me, but from an environmental standpoint I gotta say filtered butts hurt the trail far more than someone yapping on their phone. Anyone else noticed this smoking trend?

Folks if you're gonna smoke...pack your butts out! or don't smoke filtered cigs!

Alligator
06-24-2006, 00:15
I think you were jonesing for a cig:cool: ;) .

Amigi'sLastStand
06-24-2006, 01:01
But arent fire pits just big ashtrays?

Almost There
06-24-2006, 02:00
Actually, smoke free since June 10th!!!

SGT Rock
06-24-2006, 06:43
Something I noticed on my hike this month was the number of chainsmoking thruhikers who kept leaving the their filtered butts in the fire pits and on the trail. One afternoon I watched a hiker throw 5 butts into one fire pit within a span of 20 minutes. Personally neither cellphones or butts bother me, but from an environmental standpoint I gotta say filtered butts hurt the trail far more than someone yapping on their phone. Anyone else noticed this smoking trend?

Folks if you're gonna smoke...pack your butts out! or don't smoke filtered cigs!

I never thought about this until you mentioned it and then I did some reading in my free time. You may want to clue those smokers in on some facts about those butts they leave in the fire:



Some background on cigarettes
95% of cigarette filters are made of cellulose acetate, a plastic slow to degrade. Cellulose acetate fibers are thinner than sewing thread, white, and packed tightly together to create a filter; they can look like cotton. Cigarette filters are specifically designed to absorb vapors and to accumulate particulate smoke components. Cultivated tobacco, Nicotiana tabacum, is a member of the nightshade family of plants. It is a broadleaf native of tropical America cultivated as an annual.

Depending on the type of tobacco and its growing location, the leaves of the tobacco plant can have different tastes, burning properties, aromas, color, and nicotine content. Tobacco leaves contain several alkaloids, including the highly toxic alkaloid nicotine. Nicotine is a powerful insecticide and among the deadliest of all plant products in its pure form

So by putting leaving those butts there they are introducing a poison which can leach out of the butts in the rain or be consumed by animals. Here is some information on toxicity:


The toxic dose for nicotine in pets is 20-100 mg. A cigarette contains 9-30 mg of nicotine depending on the type of cigarette; while a cigarette butt contains about 25% of the nicotine of the original cigarette despite its deceptively small amount of tobacco. (Smoking seems to concentrate some of the nicotine in the tail end of the cigarette.)

So some math shows that if a small to medium sized animal is foraging for food scraps in a fire pit (not uncommon especially in heavy use campsites and shelters) 1 to 2 cigarette butts could be fatal to the animal.

Pack them in, pack them out.

Lone Wolf
06-24-2006, 07:31
Smokers don't care about thier own health. Why should they care about thier surroundings?

irritable_badger
06-24-2006, 09:41
Smokers don't care about thier own health. Why should they care about thier surroundings?

That's just a silly thing to say. While my own interest in my health may be in question there is no connection to the degree to which I care about my surroundings.

Filters should be carried out. (and cell phones should be thrown in the fire)

sliderule
06-24-2006, 09:42
So some math shows that if a small to medium sized animal is foraging for food scraps in a fire pit (not uncommon especially in heavy use campsites and shelters) 1 to 2 cigarette butts could be fatal to the animal.


Let's hope that the four-legged animals have more sense that the two-legged version when it comes to putting a cigarette in their mouth.

irritable_badger
06-24-2006, 09:48
Let's hope that the four-legged animals have more sense that the two-legged version when it comes to putting a cigarette in their mouth.

My hedgehog loves cigarette ashes and butts. He's been eating them for the last three years. If a hedgehog can eat the stuff by the ashtray full I don't see how a squirrel or chipmunk would be harmed.

irritable_badger
06-24-2006, 09:50
Let's hope that the four-legged animals have more sense that the two-legged version when it comes to putting a cigarette in their mouth.

My hedgehog eats cigarette ashes and butts by the ashtray full. Other than occasional bouts of irratibility there are no side effects. I doubt that any forest creature would be harmed if it ate a few butts.

The poison leaching into the ground isn't really much of an issue either as compared to the amount of butts everywhere else a few more in the woods isn't going to make a difference.

The biggest problem with the butts is that they are unsightly.

sliderule
06-24-2006, 09:56
That's just a silly thing to say. While my own interest in my health may be in question there is no connection to the degree to which I care about my surroundings.


Just think how much better your "surroundings" could be if all the resources used in producing, distributing and consuming tobacco products were used to improve the environment.

Most of the smokers that I have known care more about feeding their addiction than anything else. Part of the reason that they smoke to start with is that they lack the disipline to stop. That lack of disipline spills over into other areas, like taking care of their "surroundings."

Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-24-2006, 10:17
I called a friend who is a veterinarian. She said cigarette butts contain many toxic substances and absorbed at differing rates by various animals because of differences in the amount of acid in their stomachs and how quickly the contents empty into the intestinal tract (where most of the nicotine would be absorbed). <o></o>
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She said the higher the acid in the stomach, the less nicotine absorption that takes place and the greater the likelihood of the animal vomiting the butts before they can be absorbed. Animals that dine on primarily protein (meat) have a higher acid content in their stomach. She said forest animals that forage primarily on vegetation would indeed be at risk for poisoning. Since hedgehogs eat primarily insects in the wild, I'm assuming they have high acidity in their stomach which affords them some protection from nicotine posioning.

sliderule
06-24-2006, 11:13
My hedgehog loves cigarette ashes and butts. He's been eating them for the last three years. .

You claim that you care about your "surroundings," but you allow your pet to consume cigarette butts. Actions speak louder than words.

Wonder
06-24-2006, 13:51
So, I am a smoker....but I DO care about my surroundings...
I will either pack out my butts or smoke filterless cigarettes. Filters take 12 years to decompose! Most smokers I've seen on the trail follow this general rule, and some others like me will also go further and pick up the mess of others.

the goat
06-24-2006, 13:58
two words: bali shag.

Ridge
06-24-2006, 14:15
I would be surprised that the majority of the butts got tossed in a fire-ring. The trail-heads, trail and surrounding woods have quite a few also.

kyhipo
06-24-2006, 15:09
american spirit,:eek: ky

Almost There
06-24-2006, 16:29
Yeah, Wonderfoot I used to think this too, but in just a coupla weeks of hiking this ceased to be true. BTW the only hiker on a cellphone I saw was on the Blue Ridge Parkway at an overlook.

dreamhiker
06-24-2006, 18:15
My hedgehog eats cigarette ashes and butts by the ashtray full. Other than occasional bouts of irratibility there are no side effects. I doubt that any forest creature would be harmed if it ate a few butts

Thats just funny:banana what brand does he like.

fishinfred
06-24-2006, 21:08
Alright I confess I am a nicotine addict..... what can I say it was cool when I was 11 and the Marlboro man was in style .... I try to give it up occasionally but its damn hard ! I cut down big time when Im hiking (hard not to ) but to totally quit ....its a bitch ....hopefully someday I will...... (I HOPE) but while hiking or ANYWHERES in nature the Butts go in the pockets or the pack!
Just like other accumulated trash there is a trash can up ahead somewhere...I packed it in I pack it out !
For all u other smokers.... you stink anyways so a few butts in your pocket wont make you smell any worse than u (WE) already do !
I met a guy 2 years ago who would throw his butts down and crush'm with his hikin stick into the ground .....He thought that was ok ....WRONG !!!! I picked up 40 of his butts in 4 days(and I probably missed a few )
Stick with "Pack it in ,Pack it out! That goes for Butts,wrappers etc
THINK ABOUT IT....someones going to be following your *ss and pickin up ur Butts so if you have the habit.....dont make it worse than it already is !
Simple as that !
What can I say .....ANY trash on the trail pisses me off :mad:
Unless there is a fire Blazin my butts go in my pocket or the pack they came from !
Its the same fools who leave their "other trash" in shelters/fire pits who litter the trail with butts
GRRRRRrrr
FF

Frosty
06-24-2006, 21:42
leaching into the ground isn't really much of an issue either as compared to the amount of butts everywhere else a few more in the woods isn't going to make a difference. Sure, so leave some snickers wrappers in the fire pit while you're at it, and tuna foil, and cellophane from crackers. As you say, "a few more in the woods isn't going to make a difference."

The "N" in LNT stands for "No" and that's how much trash should be left in fire pits, IMO.

ed bell
06-24-2006, 21:55
Personal trash should be a no brainer. Carry your trash out and put it in the trash can. I'm a passive ex-smoker and I always carried them out. Hell, I would never throw one in the street. Fire rings tend to do nothing but encourage litter and breed more fire rings.

Tinker
06-24-2006, 22:52
My hedgehog eats cigarette ashes and butts by the ashtray full. Other than occasional bouts of irratibility there are no side effects. I doubt that any forest creature would be harmed if it ate a few butts.

The poison leaching into the ground isn't really much of an issue either as compared to the amount of butts everywhere else a few more in the woods isn't going to make a difference.

The biggest problem with the butts is that they are unsightly.

The Biggest problem with butts is that, once in a while, one thrown to the side of the trail starts a fire!:eek:

I've seen people in parks, not on the AT, crush out a butt on a walking path and continue down the path while the remains, presumed to be dead by the littering offender, smoldered until I put them out and pocketed them. I don't know what it is, but smokers and drinkers seem to be more careless (or clueless:-? ) than the general public about the mess they leave behind and the damage it can cause.

bearbait2k4
06-24-2006, 22:54
Part of the reason that they smoke to start with is that they lack the disipline to stop. That lack of disipline spills over into other areas, like taking care of their "surroundings."

Oh wow, you shouldn't have said that.

Being as how nicotene is one of the most addictive drugs ever made, basically referring to smokers as lazy and lacking discipline (you didn't say lazy, but read the post), you are making one of the most ignorant and untrue statements that has been made on this board - and I've read this board for a while. You should really watch what you say when you're speaking of a group, because categorizing and stereotyping people doesn't work well.

While I think that it sucks that some people don't seem to know what LNT means, I think that you would find that most smokers pack butts out. Otherwise, there would be a trail blanketed with cigarette butts, considering the amount of smokers that are out hiking the trail.

I'm sure that most smokers, including myself, never have realized the harm in throwing a butt into a fire. Smokers are not the first, either. Almost everyone out on the trail has thrown something into a fire on the trail that they just didn't want to pack out - thinking that it would burn, and just leave ashes. I know it is the responsibility for everyone out there to LNT, but a lot of these people likely think they are doing just that if ashes are the only thing left. Perhaps signage and literature pertaining to the LNT philosophy should highlight this issue, to make people more aware of the specific harm that can be done with throwing more than just paper or wood into a fire.

As for those that simply use a fire ring, sans fire, for a trash can, that needs to stop. The best way is direct confrontation. Polite, but direct.

corentin
06-24-2006, 22:57
All cell phone users should be forced to chain smoke 5 packs per day, that way they will be too breathless to talk ...or hike at all.

ed bell
06-24-2006, 23:17
If this thread has boiled down to smoking hikers' obligations concerning their butts, carry that s**t out. Pretty simple.

Krewzer
06-25-2006, 10:35
Something I noticed on my hike this month was the number of chainsmoking thruhikers... Anyone else noticed this smoking trend?

Folks if you're gonna smoke...pack your butts out! or don't smoke filtered cigs!

Yes, I've noticed. My thoughts are pretty well known on WB. What concerns me most is the number of young hikers fooling around with these things. Butts on the ground, in the fire pits, in the woods is just more good reason to kick the habit.

It ain't "cool" you guys, it's an addiction.

Spiritual Pillgrim
06-25-2006, 14:08
I've tried quitting the habit on the trail. I usually do until I hit a town, then break down and buy more. Really wanted to quit completely before gasping thru the Whites.
I roll my own and leave the remains in fire pits. Don't know if this is environmentally unsound but it was better than packin out my filters and smellin like a nasty ashtray or pitchin the butts where "no one will see them". Smoking sux. Wish I could quit. I know some smart ass will probably say its about willpower. Maybe it is. Maybe I have none.

Wonder
06-25-2006, 14:12
I've tried quitting the habit on the trail. I usually do until I hit a town, then break down and buy more. Really wanted to quit completely before gasping thru the Whites.
I roll my own and leave the remains in fire pits. Don't know if this is environmentally unsound but it was better than packin out my filters and smellin like a nasty ashtray or pitchin the butts where "no one will see them". Smoking sux. Wish I could quit. I know some smart ass will probably say its about willpower. Maybe it is. Maybe I have none.


My plan was to quit while on the trail...... The suprising problem that I encountered was that so many people smoke! I thought that I would be the only smoker out there.....therefore making it easier to quit. Now, while I don't smoke nearly as much on the trail as I do in town, I'm still around it......makes it tough

sliderule
06-25-2006, 14:38
Oh wow, you shouldn't have said that.

Being as how nicotene is one of the most addictive drugs ever made, basically referring to smokers as lazy and lacking discipline (you didn't say lazy, but read the post), you are making one of the most ignorant and untrue statements that has been made on this board - and I've read this board for a while. You should really watch what you say when you're speaking of a group, because categorizing and stereotyping people doesn't work well.


My comments were based on years of personal observation which began long before you could spell "internet." If sharing observations constitutes "categorizing and stereotyping," so be it. The addictive nature of nicotine is duly acknowedged. How are addictions overcome, if not through discipline? Why do some people resist the temptation to become addicted to start with and some don't?

blindeye
06-26-2006, 20:49
well said lone wolf!

Nightwalker
06-26-2006, 22:42
Being as how nicotene is one of the most addictive drugs ever made, basically referring to smokers as lazy and lacking discipline (you didn't say lazy, but read the post), you are making one of the most ignorant and untrue statements that has been made on this board - and I've read this board for a while. You should really watch what you say when you're speaking of a group, because categorizing and stereotyping people doesn't work well.
Dude, some people have to judge others to feel better about themselves. They don't know they're doing it, and probably can't help it anyway.

Try to cut them the same break that you wish they'd cut you. Difficult, but possible.

:D

sliderule
06-27-2006, 00:09
Dude, some people have to judge others to feel better about themselves.

:D
Feeling better now?

Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-27-2006, 00:17
Well, since medicine has decided that addiction is a disease, I suggest the next time you get a case of diarrhea you just practice willpower and self discipline. I'm sure it is going to be every bit as effective on that disease as it is on addiction.

sliderule
06-27-2006, 01:23
Well, since medicine has decided that addiction is a disease.....
The concept of addiction as a disease is highly controversial and is not universally accepted. Millions of people have kicked the habit without medical intervention. Disease or not, discipline and willpower was the remedy.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
06-27-2006, 10:19
I dispute sliderule's statement that discipline and willpower are the remedy for addiction.

I have been off drugs and alcohol for a bit over 21 years myself. I've encounter many problems over the course of my lifetime that required discipline, tenacity and willpower to overcome - enough to know that I don't have a shortage of any of these traits. However, these traits were useless when it came to overcoming addiction. That required an entirely different approach - one that seemed ludicrous in the beginning, but has worked and continued working. During my 21 years of abstinence, I have observed hundreds of others who also became abstinent - I have never seen a single individual do this via discipline and willpower alone. This suggest to me that addiction is malady that requires a remedy that goes beyond traditional willpower and discipline to overcome. YMMV (but I will surprised if it does)

Footslogger
06-27-2006, 10:34
Now that smoking is banned in a lot of cities and/or municipal buildings, have you ever noticed the rate at which butts collect in the containers outside ?? I guess that over time, with all of us walking down the same path, that the sides of the trail might end up looking like that.

As a smoker in a former life I'm not very judgemental on the subject. I made my choice and moved on. Been there, done that, got the reduced lung capacity to prove it.

That said ...my suggestion would be that all smokers consider "field stripping" their butts and sticking the filters in their pocket to be deposited in a trash container later on. Littering isn't part of the addiction. It's just a lazy habit.

'Slogger

dreamhiker
06-27-2006, 10:56
I am a smoker that Hikes I hike out all my butts just the same as I hike out the trash from my food. I also filled a large hefty bag with trash I found around one shelter on sunday 6/25. So to jump on smokers as the ones leaving all the trash is not correct IMO. Also as far as cell phones go some of us leave people at home wifes,kids that we need to be in contact with while hike I't makes the wife happy if I call at the end of a day of hiking becouse we a partners in all things I have no problem with calling her at the end of the day. I don't think anyone else has the right to tell people if they should or shouldn't use cell phones,smoke or drink as long as its not TRULY bothering someone else.
DreamHiker
DreamHiker
DreamHiker

Nightwalker
06-27-2006, 12:13
Feeling better now?
Sorry, didn't fit.

Skidsteer
06-27-2006, 19:19
Littering isn't part of the addiction. It's just a lazy habit.

'Slogger

I knew if I kept reading this thread someone would post something sensible.

Tinker
06-27-2006, 21:25
I smoked up to three packs a day between the ages of 14 and 28. I quit just before I got married. My 25th anniversary is coming up on July 11.

There is hope, but you have to imagine that the freedom from smoking is worth more than the temporal gratification. The same can be said for many things in life - marijuana (been there, too), pornography, etc, etc, etc.

FWIW, ex smokers ARE the worst when it comes to being around current smokers. We know where it can lead. My father died of emphyzema at the age of 75. I'm sure he could've lived much longer had he not smoked.

bearbait2k4
06-28-2006, 10:22
My comments were based on years of personal observation which began long before you could spell "internet." If sharing observations constitutes "categorizing and stereotyping," so be it. The addictive nature of nicotine is duly acknowedged. How are addictions overcome, if not through discipline? Why do some people resist the temptation to become addicted to start with and some don't?

I think that observing smokers and their habits for nearly thirty years can qualify my opinion on the subject, so I would thank you to not condescend me like that.

If you were merely sharing observations, rather than calling the lot of smokers lazy, then it likely wouldn't be viewed as categorizing and stereotyping. That addiction can be the most difficult addiction to break, so I would certainly not attribute one's failure at breaking the nicotene addiction to laziness and a lack of discpline. In addition to that, some people may not be trying to quit. They may like to smoke, as a recreational habit. Are these people lazy, as well? Do they lack discipline, due to their enjoyment of a habit that you feel only slobs or slackers partake in? Seriously - you have to possess a certain amount of discipline if you're out hiking the trail, regardless of what your habits are.

That generalization was just uncalled for, and anyone that has the slightest hint of intelligence should know for what reason.

Anyway, all that I know is that, during 2 years I was on and off the trail, I saw a gradual increase of trash being left behind in fire rings and shelters, even thought the number of hikers decreased between those 2 years. More people are ignoring the LNT philosophy every year, and that is something I would consider to be a problem. It's not just smokers, cell-phone users, yellow-blazers, blue-blazers, weekend warriors...but it's people from every group out there. It is a huge problem.

What can be done about it, and what I have seen to be most effective, is direct confrontation with offending characters. If you see someone leaving trash behind, say something. There's no need to necessarily get rude to the person, but taking a proactive stance is certainly going to accomplish more than bitching and moaning on a message board.

sliderule
06-28-2006, 11:19
If you were merely sharing observations, rather than calling the lot of smokers lazy, then it likely wouldn't be viewed as categorizing and stereotyping.

It is interesting, bearbait2k4, that you find it necessary and appropriate to attribute to me statements that I never made. That's not something I would have expected from a 28 year-old with nearly 30 years of experience, especially when viewed in the context of your earlier admonition regarding "untrue statements" and "You should really watch what you say... ."

QHShowoman
06-28-2006, 14:08
FWIW, ex smokers ARE the worst when it comes to being around current smokers. We know where it can lead. My father died of emphyzema at the age of 75. I'm sure he could've lived much longer had he not smoked.

Sorry to hear that, Tink. My dad is 71, and has less than 15% lung capacity solely due to smoking. When he was first diagnosed with Emphysema, he continued to smoke until he went into respiratory arrest. He spent days intubated in the ICU and we thought for sure he would die. He pulled through and I wish I could say he's doing better, but he really isn't. Just walking to the bathroom tires him out, so he basically lays around wasting away. It's very sad.

bearbait2k4
06-28-2006, 22:33
It is interesting, bearbait2k4, that you find it necessary and appropriate to attribute to me statements that I never made. That's not something I would have expected from a 28 year-old with nearly 30 years of experience, especially when viewed in the context of your earlier admonition regarding "untrue statements" and "You should really watch what you say... ."

Ya, I've lived with smokers all my life, so do the math. Now, what are you trying to disparage?

What you essentially did was attribute a single-statement generalization to a large group of people, which is simply something that shouldn't be done. Anyone who has been on the trail for even the smallest period of time should be able to see that the world is made of truly unique human beings, and there is not one group that you can properly singularly attribute one generalization to. The statement you made, in regards to lacking discipline, sounds like a description of a lazy person, in my opinion - something you didn't exactly refute, by the way, so I'm not sure where your argument of claiming you said anything you didn't comes from.

I'm not saying that you have to say you're wrong for judging people that way, even though you are. But, come on....continuing to carry on and defend that it's okay to stereotype and generalize people - that's just beginning to get ridiculous.

sliderule
06-28-2006, 23:23
I'm not saying that you have to say you're wrong for judging people that way, even though you are. But, come on....continuing to carry on and defend that it's okay to stereotype and generalize people - that's just beginning to get ridiculous.
Would I be stereotyping if I suggested that smokers throw more cigarette butts on the ground than nonsmokers? Would that be an unfair generalization?

Wonder
06-29-2006, 00:40
I have a confession...........
Proir to being an AT hiker.....I was a butt thrower. It took me ONE day on the trail to see what a me it really makes. I had hiked ou twith rolling tobacco, but when I saw butts on the ground......around such beauty....it saddened me. I've been "off trail" for 5 weeks now, and I am reformed. Field strip, and in my pocket. If I'm going to be a smoker.....I"ll have to suffer the the badge of stink. Though I still smoke.....I have been on everyone I know about the butts. It's harder to convince people in the city. BUt I"m trying...........

Ridge
06-29-2006, 01:17
Wish every smoker would pack-out the butts. Some of the smokers that don't throw butts out one at a time save'em up in an ash tray and dump them at the Red Light Curbing. PIGS

Time To Fly 97
06-29-2006, 09:48
Used cigarette buts just stink and carrying them out almost guaratees that the smell will pervade your gear as well... unless you plan ahead. I use one of those plastic film canisters to carry out the buts. Since these are small and kind of a pain to dig for I end up smoking less.

Also, I find that when I am smoking (off and on) I crave a smoke when I feel the need for a quick energy boost. What I have found is that most times, I need an energy boost because I am dehydrated, hungry, tired or other totally natural reasons. I really make an effort when I crave a cigarette to ask myself if a cigarette is really what I need. Most times it is not and I can talk myself out of a smoke most times. Other times, I just want to get the beneficial results from smoking...like increasing lung capacity. ; )

The previous post about the chain smoking hiker is sketchy. A series of cigarettes was probably the last thing that he/she needed. It probably made the situation worse, requiring more cigarettes to boost energy levels. I hope the trail teaches "grasshopper" the wisdom of the smokes.

TTF

Alligator
06-29-2006, 10:15
Here's an easy way to handle litter. I keep a ziplock handy throughout the day, either in my pocket, hip belt, or top lid. Eat a candy bar, the corner and wrapper goes in. Use a bandaid, the strips and paper go in. Smoke a cigarette, the roach/butt goes in. If your trash bag is buried, there is less incentive to do the right thing. The ziplock will prevent the smell from getting everywhere.

I keep my pouch of tobacco in a ziplock, so putting a film canister in there might be a good idea for some too. IMO, however, film canisters tend to invite unwanted scrutiny. Let's see, I would have a pouch of tobacco, a rolling mat, rolling papers, and a film canister :-? ...

Time To Fly 97
06-29-2006, 10:18
Hey Gator,

It is actually the tupperware container that gets the scrutiny. LOL!

bearbait2k4
06-29-2006, 10:51
Would I be stereotyping if I suggested that smokers throw more cigarette butts on the ground than nonsmokers? Would that be an unfair generalization?

Being a smartA-- is not going to make stereotyping right.

Lone Wolf
06-29-2006, 11:04
Something I noticed on my hike this month was the number of chainsmoking thruhikers who kept leaving the their filtered butts in the fire pits and on the trail. One afternoon I watched a hiker throw 5 butts into one fire pit within a span of 20 minutes. Personally neither cellphones or butts bother me, but from an environmental standpoint I gotta say filtered butts hurt the trail far more than someone yapping on their phone. Anyone else noticed this smoking trend?

Folks if you're gonna smoke...pack your butts out! or don't smoke filtered cigs!
Smokers are a helluva lot more inconsiderate than cell phone users. Most cell users will walk away from others at shelters, overlooks, mountaintops, etc. Smokers light up wherever they want. Especially true in shelters. I was in the Smokys 6 years ago staying in a shelter. There was ten of us. 8 of 10 were smokers. It was early afternoon and pouring buckets. All the smokers were smoking and it was really bothering one girl who wasn't a smoker. She was afraid to say anything so I did. I asked if they would go outside the shelter to smoke. I guy had a major problem with that and was willing to fight me over it. I laughed at him, berated him in front of everyone then packed my stuff and left in the rain. Smokers suck.

dreamhiker
06-29-2006, 11:24
I am a smoker and last week while BP in southern Vermont I went out in the rain to smoke so all smokers are not inconsiderate. there where some people that where not smokers but where incosiderate by using half the shelter space to spreed out all there gear. So there are inconsiderate people who smoke and some who don't smoke. #@$! holes come in all forms.
DreamHiker

Ender
06-29-2006, 11:26
#@$! holes come in all forms.[DreamHiker

Ain't that the darn truth.

Ridge
06-29-2006, 11:35
It's raining, the shelter is full and there this guy with a cell-phone to the ear trying to talk and smoke a cigarette at the same time and looking for his roaming dog. He's up for "Mr Considerate Hiker of the Month" !!

Footslogger
06-29-2006, 11:42
It's raining, the shelter is full and there this guy with a cell-phone to the ear trying to talk and smoke a cigarette at the same time and looking for his roaming dog. He's up for "Mr Considerate Hiker of the Month" !!
===========================
True Multi-Tasker ...

'Slogger

StrixVaria
06-29-2006, 14:50
I would be willing to venture that sliderule is one of those born again Christian types who enjoys nothing so much as to find some level of moral superiority from which to cast judgment on anyone readily at hand.<o:p></o:p>
It seems that there are a large number of people who smoke – for a variety of reasons. Some of those who smoke are inconsiderate buttheads. There are also inconsiderate buttheads who do not smoke and who leave a great deal of trash on trail. Others simply put the loudest pipes they can find on their motorcycles and go roaring through mountain roads – disturbing the illusion of wilderness for everyone within a four mile radius of their passing. <o:p></o:p>
I’ve found that it’s probably not a good idea to make rash generalizations about any single group of people except Baptists – who should, by and large, be fed to lions, tigers and bears.

Wonder
06-29-2006, 14:54
I would be willing to venture that sliderule is one of those born again Christian types who enjoys nothing so much as to find some level of moral superiority from which to cast judgment on anyone readily at hand.<O:p></O:p>
It seems that there are a large number of people who smoke – for a variety of reasons. Some of those who smoke are inconsiderate buttheads. There are also inconsiderate buttheads who do not smoke and who leave a great deal of trash on trail. Others simply put the loudest pipes they can find on their motorcycles and go roaring through mountain roads – disturbing the illusion of wilderness for everyone within a four mile radius of their passing. <O:p></O:p>
I’ve found that it’s probably not a good idea to make rash generalizations about any single group of people except Baptists – who should, by and large, be fed to lions, tigers and bears.

I can't wait to see where people go with this..............

sliderule
06-29-2006, 14:55
Being a smartA-- is not going to make stereotyping right.
So stereotyping is wrong, but namecalling is acceptable?

What, exactly, makes stereotyping wrong? Has the First Amendment been amended? Is there a new Eleventh Commandment that I haven't heard about?

Ridge
06-29-2006, 14:56
I would be willing to venture that sliderule is one of those born again Christian types who enjoys nothing so much as to find some level of moral superiority from which to cast judgment on anyone readily at hand.<O:p></O:p>
It seems that there are a large number of people who smoke – for a variety of reasons. Some of those who smoke are inconsiderate buttheads. There are also inconsiderate buttheads who do not smoke and who leave a great deal of trash on trail. Others simply put the loudest pipes they can find on their motorcycles and go roaring through mountain roads – disturbing the illusion of wilderness for everyone within a four mile radius of their passing. <O:p></O:p>
I’ve found that it’s probably not a good idea to make rash generalizations about any single group of people except Baptists – who should, by and large, be fed to lions, tigers and bears.

But don't you just love nature, despite what it did to you?

sliderule
06-29-2006, 15:04
I would be willing to venture that sliderule is one of those born again Christian types who enjoys nothing so much as to find some level of moral superiority from which to cast judgment on anyone readily at hand.<O:p></O:p>

Welcome to the club, Strix. Maybe we can get together and form SA. Stereotypers Anonymous!!!

StrixVaria
06-29-2006, 15:27
My apologies to all of the lion, tiger and bear lovers on this forum. It has recently come to my attention that Baptists are second only to Conservative Republicans in toxicity to wildlife and to Nature in general. I must, therefore, retract my statement that Baptists should be fed to bears. As much as it would warm my heart to see a resumption of martyrdom among Christians through this medium, it is not worth the risk to innocent wildlife.<o:p></o:p>
You may now resume your bashing of smokers.<o:p></o:p>

sliderule
06-29-2006, 20:18
I would be willing to venture that sliderule is one of those born again Christian types .

Let me clue you in on something, Steve. It does not take a religious fanatic to despise smoking. Smoking is such a vile, stinking and deadly habit that a very ordinary person can be quite capable of finding it repulsive. No "moral superiority" is required.

All of the rubbish about stereotyping, generalizing and passing judgement is little more than a smokescreen intended to obscure the real issue. If the trail is being littered with cigarette butts, where are they coming from? Are they falling from the trees? Are they being dropped by nonsmokers? Or are they being thrown down by smokers who lack the motivation to do the right thing? I am fairly certain that those questions can be answered without generalizing, stereotyping or passing judgement.

mweinstone
06-29-2006, 20:39
ill say it again. carrying a full trash bag is a badge of honor and having no trash bag tells everyone you suck.

ed bell
06-29-2006, 21:18
ill say it again. carrying a full trash bag is a badge of honor and having no trash bag tells everyone you suck. Wisdom in the face of chaos. Good post Mr. M.W.

bearbait2k4
06-29-2006, 21:33
Let me clue you in on something, Steve. It does not take a religious fanatic to despise smoking. Smoking is such a vile, stinking and deadly habit that a very ordinary person can be quite capable of finding it repulsive. No "moral superiority" is required.

All of the rubbish about stereotyping, generalizing and passing judgement is little more than a smokescreen intended to obscure the real issue. If the trail is being littered with cigarette butts, where are they coming from? Are they falling from the trees? Are they being dropped by nonsmokers? Or are they being thrown down by smokers who lack the motivation to do the right thing? I am fairly certain that those questions can be answered without generalizing, stereotyping or passing judgement.

Nobody, sliderule, has questioned who is littering the cigarettes on the trail. I think I have touched on that in at least 2 posts, so I'm not sure where the smokescreen is that you're talking about.

What I have questioned, not really questioned, but have pointed out, is that generalizing a group the way you did is not right. By calling you a smartA--, I was responding to what I see as a sarcastic response that has nothing to do with stereotyping, and you know it. So, maybe I should refine myself and instead ask you if that was simply a rhetorical question.

Although you did do something to substantiate what I said, I still doubt that every smoker has done the same to substantiate judgement, as such, from you.

But, let's get back to the apparent smokescreen, and try to make the thread productive once again - what do you think would be a positive action to end littering on the trail? You can see my previous posts for my response on that.

Lone Wolf
06-29-2006, 21:50
Smokers don't care about living. Same as gays who have unprotected sex. The info is out there. They CHOOSE to ignore it. Oh well.:)

Happy
06-29-2006, 22:01
Just smoke cigars and don't inhale, no filters to screw up the trail, win, win, win!:banana

Catsgoing
06-29-2006, 22:13
Thank you for posting about smoking and cigarette butts.

I hate to see cigarette butts any place on Mother Earth.

I live in Venice, Florida and our beaches are full of cigarette butts.

Please if you Smoke Pack your butts out with you..

Please for the future generation.
(My Grandson)

Just Do It!:mad: :mad: :mad:

mambo_tango
06-30-2006, 00:42
My apologies to all of the lion, tiger and bear lovers on this forum. It has recently come to my attention that Baptists are second only to Conservative Republicans in toxicity to wildlife and to Nature in general.

As a Baptist I would like to say to you 'try to say that to my face, fool.' Of course there might be a chance that if you do I might be forced to convert you.....we're dangerous like that. What I really want to say is don't tell me what I think...just because I am baptist doesn't mean that I fall into your definition. Since you aren't baptist should I assume you that you have no morals or ethics? Because I have had bad experiences with non-baptists when I was growing up and now I think that you are all evil:banana . Wait...does that sound a tad ridiculous? I'm sorry....

Tinker
06-30-2006, 01:15
As a Baptist I would like to say to you 'try to say that to my face, fool.' Of course there might be a chance that if you do I might be forced to convert you.....we're dangerous like that. What I really want to say is don't tell me what I think...just because I am baptist doesn't mean that I fall into your definition. Since you aren't baptist should I assume you that you have no morals or ethics? Because I have had bad experiences with non-baptists when I was growing up and now I think that you are all evil:banana . Wait...does that sound a tad ridiculous? I'm sorry....

Sorry, friend, I couldn't picture my Jesus saying to anyone "try to say that to my face, fool".

Anti-Christian stereotypers are not without ammuntion, seeing as how few of my fellow brothers and sisters seem to know much about their faith, as they seem to spend more time in "the world" rather than in "the Word".

Peace was exemplified in "the Prince of Peace", Jesus.

Neither his supposed followers, nor his detractors, seem to be able to keep the peace when their beliefs or practices are under scrutiny.

sliderule
06-30-2006, 01:25
what do you think would be a positive action to end littering on the trail? You can see my previous posts for my response on that.

In an attempt to do something positive, I volunteered as an AT caretaker promoting LNT for two seasons. Would that count for anything?

NICKTHEGREEK
06-30-2006, 07:50
I never thought about this until you mentioned it and then I did some reading in my free time. You may want to clue those smokers in on some facts about those butts they leave in the fire:

[/size][/font]

So by putting leaving those butts there they are introducing a poison which can leach out of the butts in the rain or be consumed by animals. Here is some information on toxicity:



So some math shows that if a small to medium sized animal is foraging for food scraps in a fire pit (not uncommon especially in heavy use campsites and shelters) 1 to 2 cigarette butts could be fatal to the animal.

Pack them in, pack them out.

That's just silly on so many levels. Tobacco grows naturally, decomposes and returns to the soil. If your independent research had any validity large sections of Maryland, Virginia, and the Carolinas would look like death valley, with neither plant nor animal life due to the toxins from tobacco.

If you have that much free time for independent research let us know if decomposing poision ivy makes a worm's ass itch too.

dreamhiker
06-30-2006, 08:50
thats just funny on so many levels:banana :banana :p

Alligator
06-30-2006, 09:25
That's just silly on so many levels. Tobacco grows naturally, decomposes and returns to the soil. If your independent research had any validity large sections of Maryland, Virginia, and the Carolinas would look like death valley, with neither plant nor animal life due to the toxins from tobacco.

If you have that much free time for independent research let us know if decomposing poision ivy makes a worm's ass itch too.Nick, they are talking about the material in the filter, not the tobacco.

crutch
06-30-2006, 09:46
Wow......you people have too much time on your hands. How about we stop bashing on the smokers and the Baptists and just bash on anyone who litters in general? It's really quite plain and simple....if it didn't grow in the woods than it doesn't belong there.
I smoke and that's my choice.....however, you will not find my filters on the ground or in a fire pit. We've all heard this before....."pack it in pack it out".
This applies to everything that we bring into the wood with us.......I would no sooner throw my butts on the ground than I would a tuna packet (no pun intended L.W.) Just be responsible for yourself and if you see someone littering in any way, then use your voice rather than your keyboard and speak up.

sliderule
06-30-2006, 10:02
Nobody, sliderule, has questioned who is littering the cigarettes on the trail.

Now that we are in agreement about who is causing the problem, the next obvious question is "Why?"

Are the cigarette butts too slippery, so that they slide form the smokers' hands and fall on the ground?

Is the wind blowing the butts out of their mouths?

Or are smokers throwing their butts on the ground because they lack the discipline to pick them up and pack them out?

sliderule
06-30-2006, 10:04
How about we stop bashing on the smokers

I smoke and that's my choice.....

I bash smokers and that's my choice!!!

eArThworm
06-30-2006, 10:22
I'm not good with words, and though there have been many times I would have liked to confront someone politely about bad behavior/LNT issues in the woods, I never know what to say. Would someone like to take a stab at how a typical script would look? A POLITE script, please. ~~ eArThworm

crutch
06-30-2006, 10:36
I'm not good with words, and though there have been many times I would have liked to confront someone politely about bad behavior/LNT issues in the woods, I never know what to say. Would someone like to take a stab at how a typical script would look? A POLITE script, please. ~~ eArThworm

It's easy........just say somthing. Most people will respond when they're caught in the act. No need to be rude....just give them a friendly reminder as to why we're all out here. I'm sure you didn't come out here to see trash and chances are they didn't either........sometimes (far too often) people just plain don't think.......so be a teacher and educate.

sliderule
06-30-2006, 10:55
I'm not good with words, and though there have been many times I would have liked to confront someone politely about bad behavior/LNT issues in the woods, I never know what to say. Would someone like to take a stab at how a typical script would look? A POLITE script, please. ~~ eArThworm

When I was a caretaker, I was specifically trained not to use "direct confrontation," as it was believed that doing so would place the offender in a defensive posture and lead to an adversarial situation. I was supposed to "educate" in a round-about way by discussing the big picture and eventually tie the offending behavior into the larger scheme of things.

We also had LNT brochures to hand out. Want to guess what constituted the majority of litter in the vicinity of the shelters? LNT brochures!!! Sometimes you just can't seem to win for losing.

As a fellow hiker, maybe you could just start a conversation about LNT and see if you can eventually tie things together so that the offender can "connect the dots" and see the error of his/her ways. "I was reading Slackpacker Magazine in my threapist's office the other day and I saw an article on LNT. Can you spell LNT?"

And, last but not least, be careful not to use any sterotypes or make any generalizations!!!

blackbishop351
06-30-2006, 11:04
I've been smoking since I was 13, about four years less than I've been backpacking. I've never ONCE left a butt on a trail or in a campsite. The only time I've ever thrown a butt into a fire pit is when there's a fire burning. I almost always police a site before I leave, picking up ALL the trash I find, no matter what it is or who left it there.

dreamhiker
06-30-2006, 11:07
:banana
I bash smokers and that's my choice!!!:banana

All throughout history people have needed some one or some group to bash on. It helps them elevate themselves (at least in there own minds) above others. This is but a few of the groups that where open for bashing but no longer are. Native Americans (there mostly dead or the bashing would continue) Blacks, Jews, Catholics, Gays, Irish and on and on.
Not to worry you bashers still have lots of groups to pick from.
Heavy people
short people
SMOKERS
low income
high income
street people
people with drug problems

Muslims (untill the folks in Washington tell you to like them again)
North Koreans (untill they open more Wall-Marts and stop eating rice and start eating at McDonalds)
Mexicans (untill after the next elections)

So as you can see you bashers have lots of groups to pick from so BASH AWAY and show us all how Superior you are:banana BASH,BASH,BASH

sliderule
06-30-2006, 12:44
:banana :banana


So as you can see you bashers have lots of groups to pick from so BASH AWAY and show us all how Superior you are:banana BASH,BASH,BASH

Another attempt to obscure the issue by laying another smokescreen. Could it possibly be that anti-smokers are concerned about things like breathing clean air, not being exposed to carcinogens and having an environment free of smoker stink and discarded butts?

Ender
06-30-2006, 12:57
...free of smoker stink and discarded butts?

But if we have to get rid of discarded butts, where would you go??? :p

OK, I'm totally kidding, and honestly meant nothing personal at all... it's just that one was way too good to pass up! ;) No hard feelings I hope!

dreamhiker
06-30-2006, 13:03
I make sure that I am away from other hikers who do not wish to breath the air around while I smoke.
It is possible that you do not understand why you bash. It has made my day to teach you something. the basher is bashing due to the conditioning by the people or the world around them. they do not understand this, it is just what they do. I hope that all you bashers will see the light.
DreamHiker

sliderule
06-30-2006, 14:06
It is possible that you do not understand why you bash.

It's also possible that I don't understand why you feel the need to sensationalize in order to support your argument.

I think it would be fair to say that smokers have done far more to make my life miserable than anything that I could possibly do in return by expressing my dislike for their filthy habit.

Fortunately, the anti-smoking movement is picking up steam as more and more people refuse to accept the "right" of smokers to inflict their habit on innocent bystanders. If the progress that we have made gives a "superior" feeling, so be it. It's well deserved.

crutch
06-30-2006, 14:38
[/quote] If the progress that we have made gives a "superior" feeling, so be it. It's well deserved.[/quote]

So.......how long ago did you quit smoking??????

NICKTHEGREEK
06-30-2006, 19:46
Nick, they are talking about the material in the filter, not the tobacco.
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Some background on cigarettes
95% of cigarette filters are made of cellulose acetate, a plastic slow to degrade. Cellulose acetate fibers are thinner than sewing thread, white, and packed tightly together to create a filter; they can look like cotton. Cigarette filters are specifically designed to absorb vapors and to accumulate particulate smoke components. Cultivated tobacco, Nicotiana tabacum, is a member of the nightshade family of plants. It is a broadleaf native of tropical America cultivated as an annual.

Depending on the type of tobacco and its growing location, the leaves of the tobacco plant can have different tastes, burning properties, aromas, color, and nicotine content. Tobacco leaves contain several alkaloids, including the highly toxic alkaloid nicotine. Nicotine is a powerful insecticide and among the deadliest of all plant products in its pure form </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
No, the filters and the particulates including nicotine captured by same.

Turbo Joe
06-30-2006, 20:00
I never thought about this until you mentioned it and then I did some reading in my free time. You may want to clue those smokers in on some facts about those butts they leave in the fire:

[/size][/font]

So by putting leaving those butts there they are introducing a poison which can leach out of the butts in the rain or be consumed by animals. Here is some information on toxicity:



So some math shows that if a small to medium sized animal is foraging for food scraps in a fire pit (not uncommon especially in heavy use campsites and shelters) 1 to 2 cigarette butts could be fatal to the animal.

Pack them in, pack them out.

now i have to admit i am a smoker non filtered however but regardless i remember a chemistry class i took in college where we learned that the amount of nicotine in an average pack of cigarettes is on lethal dose for a human being.... "but how can people smoke over a pack a day" ....said by a voice in the back of some blog. well thats because you are not smoking the entire pack at once in once drag. now this information may help or hinder the cause but i just thought since sgt rock thoughtful enough to crunch some numbers for a good cause id throw in my two cents.

"You can quit somkin ciggarettes and quit gettin high, you might live to a hundred but your still gonna die!" - Bobby Bare

bearbait2k4
06-30-2006, 20:27
Sliderule, a LOT of people litter, period. Throwing a cigarette butt doesn't make it more appalling than if someone were to throw down a piece of paper from their journal, or a spare map, a food wrapper or container, or anything else that people litter. It is not just smokers that are offenders out there.

What you are doing is attacking an entire group because of the actions of a few, and those of us that do smoke and take the effort to pack out our butts along the way don't appreciate that. It's not right. As an adult, you should really know better.

That would be tantamount to calling all hikers lazy, or lacking discipline, simply because some of them litter. That's the whole problem with stereotyping. It unfairly criticizes those who do the right thing.

You're basically telling me, in your posts, that I am part of the problem when I am hiking, even though I LNT. You're basically drawing conclusion about my lifestyle, simply because you don't particularly care for a habit that I have.

You were a caretaker once. Would it be fair for me to generalize all caretakers as hippy potheads, simply because of a few of them are? Should I just go ahead and assume you like smoke the bud? Other caretakers do, so it must be true for all of them.

Anyway, it is great to know that you volunteer for the trail, and that there are others that devote their time to maintenance and education of the trail. I know quite a few smokers and non-smokers alike who have done the same.

Nightwalker
06-30-2006, 21:04
If the progress that we have made gives a "superior" feeling, so be it. It's well deserved.
You are so funny. No, really.

:)


P.S. I've not had a cigarette in 4.5 years, but I remember how hard it was to quit. I don't feel superior to anyone.

sliderule
06-30-2006, 22:34
Sliderule, a LOT of people litter, period. Throwing a cigarette butt doesn't make it more appalling than if someone were to throw down a piece of paper from their journal, or a spare map, a food wrapper or container, or anything else that people litter. It is not just smokers that are offenders out there.

What you are doing is attacking an entire group because of the actions of a few, and those of us that do smoke and take the effort to pack out our butts along the way don't appreciate that. It's not right. As an adult, you should really know better.

That would be tantamount to calling all hikers lazy, or lacking discipline, simply because some of them litter. That's the whole problem with stereotyping. It unfairly criticizes those who do the right thing.

You're basically telling me, in your posts, that I am part of the problem when I am hiking, even though I LNT. You're basically drawing conclusion about my lifestyle, simply because you don't particularly care for a habit that I have.



Bait, I'm having a bit of difficulty following your logic. Just to help me, could you point out a single instance where I used the term "all smokers" or words to that effect? Could you show me a single quote in which I criticized someone? It seems to me that you are drawing conclusions by connecting "dots" that don't exist. And then you want to hold me accountable for those illlogically drawn conclusions.

Could you show me where I said you were part of the litter problem or where I drew any conclusion whatsoever about your lifestyle? Could you show me where I said all smokers contribute to the litter problem. My original comment that caused you such distress was pretty specific. It began with "Most of the smokers that I have known..... ." I did not say "All smokers.... ." I did not even say "All of the smokers that I have known... ."

bearbait2k4
06-30-2006, 22:40
I give you credit since you're backing away from generalization.

However, with your first post, you said "they," not "Most smokers," and you also continued to refer to your argument by stating "smokers," not most, or some.

The logic is I am reading directly what you are typing. If you mean to say most, say most. But, your initial post refered to your view of smokers, not just your view of some smokers, and not others.

weary
06-30-2006, 23:00
As a Baptist I would like to say to you 'try to say that to my face, fool.' Of course there might be a chance that if you do I might be forced to convert you.....we're dangerous like that. What I really want to say is don't tell me what I think...just because I am baptist doesn't mean that I fall into your definition. ....
Well, I mostly grew up as a Baptist -- northern variety. It's where I went to Sunday school most often, participated in Christmas pageants, and where around the age of 13 considered getting baptised.

Unfortunately, the minister ran away with the wife of one of his parishioners and I never got around to the baptism bit. I left Maine for a decade or so about the same time. When I returned and became engaged to the woman who 43 years later remains my wife, the church we had planned for the ceremony suddenly lost it's Congregational minister, so we had the option of choosing any substitute we wanted. I chose a friend I had met as a member of the Jaycees, who happened to be a churchless southern Baptist ordained minister.

All of which may suggest that I have no ingrained prejudice against Baptists, though I have to admit that in recent years I've become increasingly critical of their insistence on mingling politics and religion.

The book I've most enjoyed in recent months is Jimmy Carter's "Our Endangered Values," which describes the damage such mingling of religion and politics causes, and how changes to the Southern Baptists religious beliefs has prompted him to break with the church that had dominated his earlier life. It's a wonderful book. I heartedly recommend it.

I also heartedly hate seeing cigaret filters on trails, regardless of the denomination that throws them there.

Weary

sliderule
06-30-2006, 23:17
I give you credit since you're backing away from generalization.

However, with your first post, you said "they," not "Most smokers," and you also continued to refer to your argument by stating "smokers," not most, or some.

The logic is I am reading directly what you are typing. If you mean to say most, say most. But, your initial post refered to your view of smokers, not just your view of some smokers, and not others.

Bait, the facts speak for themselves. It's all there in it's original unedited form. Sorry you are not familiar with the use of pronouns.

Let's say that someone says "Jack and Joe are smokers. They like to smoke Camels."
Does that mean that all smokers like Camels, or does it refer only to the subjects of the preceding sentence?

Alligator
06-30-2006, 23:47
Quote:
No, the filters and the particulates including nicotine captured by same.Sorry there Nick, I didn't read Rock's post as closely as I should have. He had prefaced it with a note about smoker's who leave butts in the fire so I just skimmed it as I don't do that.

Then there was all the talk about litter, stereotyping, Baptists, and smokescreens such that well, that initial argument was in fact hidden behind a cloud of smoke for me. I just didn't have the discipline to read from the beginning again:o .

Now all this talk is making me jones for a cigarette, but I don't start hiking until Thursday so I'll have to wait.

I think you have a reasonably good argument. I also agree, however, that ingestion could be harmfully toxic to some animals. As a Frolicking Dinosaur points explains, this toxicity is species dependent. Personally, I wouldn't bother arguing this case from the toxicity standpoint. The butts are litter and should be packed out.

Ridge
07-01-2006, 01:12
Someone mentioned earlier that butts are just like any other litter. I agree, the problem is, butts on the AT outnumber all other litter combined. They're just smaller and are flattened (usually) when extinguished. Also, other litter, unless in flames when thrown down, doesn't have the potential to burn every frigging thing up.

sliderule
07-01-2006, 09:06
butts on the AT outnumber all other litter combined.
Would that mean that smokers are the primary cause of litter on the trail?

NICKTHEGREEK
07-01-2006, 09:54
Sorry there Nick, I didn't read Rock's post as closely as I should have. He had prefaced it with a note about smoker's who leave butts in the fire so I just skimmed it as I don't do that.

Then there was all the talk about litter, stereotyping, Baptists, and smokescreens such that well, that initial argument was in fact hidden behind a cloud of smoke for me. I just didn't have the discipline to read from the beginning again:o .

Now all this talk is making me jones for a cigarette, but I don't start hiking until Thursday so I'll have to wait.

I think you have a reasonably good argument. I also agree, however, that ingestion could be harmfully toxic to some animals. As a Frolicking Dinosaur points explains, this toxicity is species dependent. Personally, I wouldn't bother arguing this case from the toxicity standpoint. The butts are litter and should be packed out.

No sweat. I'm with you on the litter standpoint, just felt that the toxicity was a bit of a leap from a logic standpoint. Thankfully, the thread hasn't gone on to the impact on the environment from all those zippos and bics getting lousy fuel economy, and global warming from matches.

bearbait2k4
07-01-2006, 10:18
Bait, the facts speak for themselves. It's all there in it's original unedited form. Sorry you are not familiar with the use of pronouns.

Let's say that someone says "Jack and Joe are smokers. They like to smoke Camels."
Does that mean that all smokers like Camels, or does it refer only to the subjects of the preceding sentence?

Once again, you picked the wrong battle.

So, which 2 hikers were you talking about when you refered to "they?"

Because, in your post, you said smokers, then said they.

The they equals smokers.

Never try to give an english major an english lesson.

This is getting dropped, because you are just going to ridiculous levels to try to backpedal your way out of something you never really refuted until others started calling you out.

bearbait2k4
07-01-2006, 10:32
Someone mentioned earlier that butts are just like any other litter. I agree, the problem is, butts on the AT outnumber all other litter combined. They're just smaller and are flattened (usually) when extinguished. Also, other litter, unless in flames when thrown down, doesn't have the potential to burn every frigging thing up.

That's interesting. I never noticed butts to be the majority of the problem out on the trail the times I was out there. I know it happens, unfortunately, but I always saw greater quantities of other trash being left behind (including anything left in shelters, etc). One shelter in New Hampshire, just North of Mahusoc Notch, looked like a veritable grocery store.

Anyway, I think the focus should just be litterers. If the smokers on the trail that litter do so more than non smokers that litter, what is the point of that? Litter is litter. Seriously, should we go around counting each and every piece of litter, labeling it to a side, and start assuming why they do such a thing? That doesn't solve anything. The litter is still there.

So, what is the best thing to do? Do we volunteer more, after the fact, to clean up the messes? Do we try to educate more? How do you educate on the trail something that should be more obvious? Should people be vigilant and tell someone that he or she needs to go pick up his or her trash?

Roland
07-01-2006, 10:42
~~~

Never try to give an english major an english lesson.

~~~
I'm sure you meant to write English. :D

sliderule
07-01-2006, 11:06
Never try to give an english major an english lesson.



I would never even consider doing that. And I'm fairly certain that I haven't!!!!

sliderule
07-01-2006, 12:00
This is getting dropped, because you are just going to ridiculous levels to try to backpedal your way out of something you never really refuted until others started calling you out.

Translation: If you are misquoted by bearbait2k4, and you don't refute her allegations immediately, you will be held responsible for her misrepresentations.

sliderule
07-01-2006, 12:29
Someone mentioned earlier that butts are just like any other litter. I agree, the problem is, butts on the AT outnumber all other litter combined.

The thing that makes cigarette butts a bit unique is that they evidently don't qualify as litter in everyone's mind. I suspect that there are hikers who would never think of leaving their foil food pouch in a fire ring, or even throwing their empty cigarette package along the side of the trail. But they are perfectly happy to toss a cigarette butt into an empty fireplace or grind it into the shelter floor with their boot.

Ridge
07-01-2006, 13:03
Would that mean that smokers are the primary cause of litter on the trail?

As for the numbers of pieces of litter, Yes. As far as total weight of litter, NO. However, it could be that the smokers threw most of the other litter down, no way of telling.

Most people that litter could be smokers. A 2 pack-a-day smoker could throw down 40 butts a day along with other trash. I am NOT saying all smokers liter. Second hand smoke in a shelter or near other non-smokers is another big problem.

sliderule
07-01-2006, 13:53
But if we have to get rid of discarded butts, where would you go??? :p



Ender, the way my luck runs, I'll probably get shipped off to an asylum filled with chain smoking nicotine addicts. And if I am really unlucky, the asylum will be located in New York City!!!

sliderule
07-01-2006, 14:02
As for the numbers of pieces of litter, Yes. As far as total weight of litter, NO. However, it could be that the smokers threw most of the other litter down, no way of telling.

Most people that litter could be smokers. A 2 pack-a-day smoker could throw down 40 butts a day along with other trash. I am NOT saying all smokers liter. Second hand smoke in a shelter or near other non-smokers is another big problem.

Any idea how the propensity to litter varies with education level?

Ender
07-01-2006, 14:10
Ender, the way my luck runs, I'll probably get shipped off to an asylum filled with chain smoking nicotine addicts. And if I am really unlucky, the asylum will be located in New York City!!!

What do you mean the asylum will be located in NYC??... NYC is an asylum! :p

One really nice thing about NYC though is that smoking is no longer allowed in bars and restaurants... makes for a much nicer experience for us non smokers.

MOWGLI
07-01-2006, 14:11
Chain smoking and hiking are two activities that IMO are mutually exclusive. Kinda like going to a health spa for a week and eating McDonalds every meal. It don't make no sense.

As long as I don't have to breathe the smoke or look at the butts on the ground, I could care less. I have my own demons to look after.

sliderule
07-01-2006, 15:02
One really nice thing about NYC though is that smoking is no longer allowed in bars and restaurants... makes for a much nicer experience for us non smokers.


That's good to hear. A comment in an another post, comparing the plight of smokers to that of Native Americans, has got me thinking. (The comparison was completely invalid, but it caused me to think, nonetheless.) The concept of "smoking reservations" might have promise.

sliderule
07-01-2006, 15:10
Chain smoking and hiking are two activities that IMO are mutually exclusive. Kinda like going to a health spa for a week and eating McDonalds every meal. It don't make no sense.



There have been a number of studies which indicate that smoking is responsible for a decrease in cognitive function. Maybe that would explain the apparently irrational behavior.

weary
07-01-2006, 15:48
What do you mean the asylum will be located in NYC??... NYC is an asylum! :p

One really nice thing about NYC though is that smoking is no longer allowed in bars and restaurants... makes for a much nicer experience for us non smokers.
Maine adopted the restaurant ban a decade or so ago. It takes awhile for asylum communities to catch up/

sliderule
07-01-2006, 16:28
You know the movement has picked up steam when Southern states like Georgia are jumping on the bandwagon. I just read that 30% of all cancer deaths would be eliminated if tobacco use were to cease. And that smokers between the ages of 35 and 69 are 300% more likely to die than nonsmokers in the same age group.

dreamhiker
07-01-2006, 16:35
if tobacco use were to cease.

The Government will never let this happen the tax revenue it generates is enough for them to keep it around.

mdionne
07-01-2006, 17:22
You know the movement has picked up steam when Southern states like Georgia are jumping on the bandwagon. I just read that 30% of all cancer deaths would be eliminated if tobacco use were to cease. And that smokers between the ages of 35 and 69 are 300% more likely to die than nonsmokers in the same age group.

If the smokers finally quit does that mean they live forever???

Frolicking Dinosaurs
07-01-2006, 17:31
They won't live forever - just about 12.7 years longer and will have fewer health problems while they do it. They will also be 980% less likely to require an oxygen tank to live and nearly 500% less likely to die in a nursing home.

mdionne
07-01-2006, 17:36
Yesterday I past a woman out of breath and struggling going up Mt Megunticook. I had a cigarette in my mouth as I past and said hello. Instead of saying hello said snapped back and said "You're gonna die on this hill with that cigarette in your mouth!" I turned and snapped back, "Clearly, the only one whose dying going up this hill is you!"

This isn't the first time I've run across some self righteous non smoker on a trail before. My question is, why do people care so much what a total stranger is doing to their body? I never go into a body piercing shop and lecture people on the holes they put into their body. I guess some people find it to be their duty to do so.:rolleyes:

mdionne
07-01-2006, 17:43
They won't live forever - just about 12.7 years longer and will have fewer health problems while they do it. They will also be 980% less likely to require an oxygen tank to live and nearly 500% less likely to die in a nursing home.

Let us bust these percentages down a little. First off 100 percent makes a whole, right? So 500% must be like having 5 lives right? And 980% is like being jesus or some other invincible being right? The 12.7 I get, my friends that don't smoke will live 12.7 years without any friends when they get old.:D

Let people be to enjoy their lives. I know, I know...this is america people don't have the right to die!

Ridge
07-01-2006, 19:15
I'm seeing an increase in gum wrappers on the trail. Maybe this is a sign more smokers are trying to kick the habit.

weary
07-01-2006, 21:35
Yesterday I past a woman out of breath and struggling going up Mt Megunticook. I had a cigarette in my mouth as I past and said hello. Instead of saying hello said snapped back and said "You're gonna die on this hill with that cigarette in your mouth!" I turned and snapped back, "Clearly, the only one whose dying going up this hill is you!"

This isn't the first time I've run across some self righteous non smoker on a trail before. My question is, why do people care so much what a total stranger is doing to their body? I never go into a body piercing shop and lecture people on the holes they put into their body. I guess some people find it to be their duty to do so.:rolleyes:
One possible reason is that with the advent of medicare, taxpayers pick up part of the cost for us folks over 65.

Weary

Frolicking Dinosaurs
07-01-2006, 21:47
Why do I care enough to say smoking isn't a good idea?

I watched my son's grandmother (ex's mother) died of emphysema and lung cancer two years ago.
I held my husband's uncle's hand as he drowned in his own secretions less than a year ago.
My former father-in-law took his own life when the process started - the note he left made it clear he knew what was coming and wasn't interested in sticking around for the horror.
The saddest of all was my losing my mother-in-law to emphysema. She never smoked a cigarette, but her husband was a heavy smoker. She got the disease from second-hand smoke.
My son's father now has emphysema though he never smoked. The doctors say it is because both his parents were heavy smokers.

dreamhiker
07-01-2006, 21:55
Thanks Frolicking Dinosaurs I am going to make another attempt to quite smoking soon and I think I will print your post and tape it to the mirror in my bathroom for motivation.
DreamHiker

TIDE-HSV
07-02-2006, 00:14
If that post doesn't get the point across, nothing will. I've been through - and beaten - the addiction. I've also seen the devastation it wreaks in it's path - not just those dying the horrible deaths, but the loved ones, sometimes little ones left behind. The duty to quit is right there on the back, along with the monkey - if you don't care about yourself, do you care about anyone else? Rant over...

Ridge
07-02-2006, 00:35
After about ten years hiking with my older buddy, who has smoked since his teens, he finally quit. He had several thousand miles of hiking and continued to hike until the day he fell over dead from a heart attack right in front of his grandchildren. He was in his fifties and probably had a cigarette in his mouth when he died. I preached to him for about five years, then I just said the heck with it. He occasionally would try to quit, never lasted more than a few weeks. Good luck to those who really want to quit.

Ramble~On
07-02-2006, 04:45
I should keep a log of how much time I spend sitting in this chair reading these posts....I am addicted to WB.

This thread took me a LONG time to read through, I'm glad I did.

I beat cigarettes. I fully noticed as the weeks and months ticked by after I had quit the HUGE difference. I began to smell things that as a smoker I didn't notice, I began to taste things...Most importantly I felt better each and every day....I got my lungs back and I really feel that I got control of my life. It took me years of pure, plain and simple procrastination before I finally took the first step and quit....it didn't happen the first time I tried and I didn't beat myself up over"failing" I simply tried again.....and failed....and tried again and I will not say how long it's been because I won....who cares how long it's been. I'm not keeping track cause that would be like "seeing how long I can make it before I smoke again" I'll never smoke again... no need for further discussion from me there because I realize how much they effected my day to day life and health.
I was a hardcore, heavy smoker...addicted to the hilt...They were in control and I couldn't go long without a smoke....Coffee and Alcohol would cause me to chainsmoke...I smoked while hiking...I smoked constantly.
I never took into consideration where I smoked or who was around me sucking in my fumes....in fact cigarettes smelled "good" to me and smelling smoke would aften trigger me wanting one. I don't litter but field stripping my cigarettes I'd have to admit dumping alot of cigarette paper and tobacco on the ground...I admit to flicking countless butts into fire circles and never gave it a thought.

Now the stench is so disgusting to me that I can not stand to be anywhere near it. It is said that "there's nothing worse than a reformed smoker" I have to admit that I agree.
As I go through life I am constantly reminded of how utterly rude and inconsiderate I was forcing my nasty habit on other people. Blowing my smoke all over and not caring what direction it went and into who's face it blew...whether they smoked or not. I remember many non smokers commenting about my smoking and others but never gave it any thought.
When someone walks anywhere near me that is a smoker I am amazed at how strong the odor is...an odor I was unaware of as a smoker...and I am not talking about people while they are smoking but the odor on their clothes....I used to smell like that and had no idea.
What is it in cigarettes that causes smokers to find that odor pleasant ?
and why is it not as strong to them ? I know that smokers have a much reduced sense of smell and taste but....wow it's a really powerful odor and they aren't aware of it.
Anyway...Tobacco is BIG business....the Gov. makes a killing in taxing it, exporting it....It keeps the entire medical industry in no worry of job security and it keeps an overpopulated planet from getting out of control.
I beat them but I'm not up on some high horse preaching that everyone should quit... Smoke em if you got em but please don't litter and if it wouldn't be too much to ask.....please try to consider the other people around you that might not find smoke to be as enjoyable as you do.

Amigi'sLastStand
07-02-2006, 05:04
But if we all quit smoking, where will all those tax $$$ and medicare $$$ gonna come from?

TIDE-HSV
07-02-2006, 09:22
equation you needn't worry about. Medicare expenditures would plunge. A huge slice of total Medicare's budget is devoted to the damage from tobacco smoke - both first and second-hand. Lung, bladder and other cancers, COPD, CV disease - think about it...

sliderule
07-02-2006, 11:39
But if we all quit smoking, where will all those tax $$$ and medicare $$$ gonna come from?

Folks can be incredibly creative in their attempts to turn vice into virtue. I suppose that it's appropriate that, as we approach Independence Day, someone would suggest that smoking is patriotic. Before we know it, we will have a new holiday to honor the smokers who made the ultimate sacrifice in the name of revenue.

And may I recommend that the Tomb of the Unknown Smoker be located on the grounds of the Treasury Department? "Here Rests In Honored Glory an American Smoker Known But to the IRS."