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concordhiker
07-07-2006, 22:59
I am a doctoral student at North Carolina State University. I am also an AT hiker. I am working on a research paper on the wilderness experience and the changes individuals experience spending extended periods of time in natural settings. I am focusing on hikers who have thru hiked the AT, or spent extended periods of time on it. If you would like to share how your time on the AT helped you make important life decisions, transitions or changed the direction of your life, I would really like to hear from you. I will not identify individuals in this paper, just the personal experience. What I hope to demonstrate in this paper is the value of wilderness, how individuals experience positive change while in wilderness, and the need to preserve wilderness. I hope to have this published in an academic journal. Thanks!

hikerjohnd
07-07-2006, 23:11
Hmmm... I did my Master's thesis on identifying AT thru-hikers as a folk group. Would definitely fit the "changes individuals experience" portion of your proposal. As soon as I get it back from the committee (there are issues with my interviews and the debate between Oral Historians and the International Review Board on humans involved with research) I'll be happy to share.

fiddlehead
07-07-2006, 23:35
Not much of a wilderness experience on the AT unless you do a southbound or hike in the winter. The CDT would have much better (true) wilderness situations.

sliderule
07-07-2006, 23:44
Not much of a wilderness experience on the AT unless you do a southbound

I look forward to a more thorough explanation of the "directional" aspect of that concept.

concordhiker
07-12-2006, 21:57
I would very much be interested in hearing from you. Let me know when you are ready to discuss it.

Mark


Hmmm... I did my Master's thesis on identifying AT thru-hikers as a folk group. Would definitely fit the "changes individuals experience" portion of your proposal. As soon as I get it back from the committee (there are issues with my interviews and the debate between Oral Historians and the International Review Board on humans involved with research) I'll be happy to share.

Tha Wookie
07-13-2006, 08:25
Also look up Michael A. Tarrant, my masters advisor who studied wilderness values.

You will face the challenge of defining wilderness. An AT shelter certainly is not it.

The bottom of Mahoosic Notch? well I'd say that counts....

Is there a questionnaire?

fiddlehead
07-13-2006, 08:50
I look forward to a more thorough explanation of the "directional" aspect of that concept.

Are you seriously questioning why a SOBO hike is a more wilderness experience than a NOBO hike?
Mainly because of the numbers. Hiking NOBO means you must start in the spring (thru-hiking) and that means 40+ gathering at shelters when it rains, springs getting muddied up from dogs and newbies washing their clothes in them, etc.
SOBO hikes after the first 12 miles are in what some call the 100 mile wilderness which takes a little more experience than someone buying every piece of gear in backpacker mag and hoisting it up a hill, only to find out they can't do it. THAT brings the numbers down.
SOBO hiking means you can't start until June or later,which means you finish in Nov or later. Finishing in Jan or Feb is much more of a wilderness experience. There's not many folks out there at that time.
I'm saying Southbounders have more experience, and there's a whole lot less of them. More experienced hikers mean they like to camp out at a cliff or top of a mt. rather than at the too crowded shelter. They are made to hike in less maintained trails. They will see more wildlife cause the animals are busy getting ready for winter. (and the woods are less crowded)
Most of the money making hostels along the trail are not even open when the SOBO go thru. Do a winter SOBO hike and you'll find that just about ALL Of them are closed. As well as many state parks, Bear Mt. is just a leaf blown field, many hotels are closed too.
I could go on and on. I'll wait till you disagree and see your reasons first.

Lone Wolf
07-13-2006, 08:53
I totally agree with fiddlehead. I've been there and done it. SOBO is the way!

John B
07-13-2006, 10:26
You're a doctoral student and now you're looking for evidence to support predetermined conclusions?

"What I hope to demonstrate in this paper is the value of wilderness, how individuals experience positive change while in wilderness, and the need to preserve wilderness."

Darwin again
07-13-2006, 10:43
What I hope to demonstrate in this paper is the value of wilderness, how individuals experience positive change while in wilderness, and the need to preserve wilderness.

Thesis: a statement or theory put forward as a premise to be proved or maintained. Compare: antithesis, sythesis

The wilderness definition will be the slippery part.

Is wildernes an objective condition or a subjective experience?
If you use solitude as a key defining element of wilderness, then it's plausible that being alone in a room could be defined as a wilderness experience.
Does wilderness mean being a certain number of miles from permanent developed dwellings or infrastructure?
Does a wilderness experience involve the absence of other people?
Does the absence of people in any natural setting qualify as a wilderness experience?
Interesting questions arise out of this...:-?

Just Jeff
07-13-2006, 11:12
You're a doctoral student and now you're looking for evidence to support predetermined conclusions?

Not really - he's submitted a hypothesis that he's gathering evidence to test. All scholarly research starts with a hypothesis - or else you don't get funded!


"What I hope to demonstrate in this paper is the value of wilderness, how individuals experience positive change while in wilderness, and the need to preserve wilderness."

Obviously you didn't post all of your academic work here, but in this short statement I'd say that:

1 - The hypothesis is "Individuals experience positive change while in the wilderness."
2 - The conclusion drawn from this is that "The wilderness has value."
3 - The implication is that "The wilderness needs to be preserved."

Only the positive change part is testable, and therefore can be "demonstrated" based on research. Everything else is logic that extends from those test results.

Search the archives here and at trailforums.com. This topic gets raised about twice a year. Good luck with your research.

Shutterbug
07-13-2006, 11:15
The wilderness definition will be the slippery part.



My definition of "wilderness":
Can't hear the sound of motors
No cell phone coverage
At least a two hour hike from a road

I have hiked all over the U.S. and have found only a few places that qualify as wilderness under my definition.

I remember an incident on the Colorado Trail when I thought I was really in the "wilderness." It had been hours since I had seen another person. After I turned in for the night, I kept hearing a strange sound. It was a sputtering sound that started loud and then faded out. I laid awake for a couple of hours trying to figure out what kind of animal might make that noise.

Two days later, after I had reached the trail head, I heard the sound again. To my embarrasment, I realized that it was an 18 wheeler down shifting to control its speed on the down hill. It is often called a "Jake Brake."

In my opinion, if you can hear Jake Brakes or other vehicle noises you aren't really in a wilderness.

Some places I have hiked that qualify as wilderness:
1. Saw Tooth Mountains of Idaho.
2. Some parts of Olympic National Park
3. Some parts of the Colorado Trail
4. The west side of the Wonderland Trail (Washington)
5. There are a few places on the AT that qualify as wilderness, but not many.

If you really want to study wilderness, try Alaska.

Darwin again
07-13-2006, 11:29
I look forward to a more thorough explanation of the "directional" aspect of that concept.

The AT is actually an west--->east trail: EABO and WEBO.

From Springer to Katahdin, the distance the Trail travels east is 868.49 miles. The Trail's north-to-south component is 777.27 miles.
(91.22 miles further east than north)

"North" and "south" are cultural references, not geographic ones.
Tried to upload a screen shot of the Google Earth screen, but got an invalid file message...

Darwin again
07-13-2006, 12:08
It's hard to escape the noise of "civilization" on the AT; jake brakes or jets, especially military jets in the south and up through Virginia, then interstate noises in the north. I heard the truckstop along Route 11 in Pa. from about 2 miles away.

The absolutely strangest sound I've ever heard on the AT recurred over a couple of days hiking out of Duncannon, up around Swatara Gap Shelter.

Kept hearing this huge growling sound, like a low-frequency roaring 'RRRRUUUUUUPPPPPPPPP" noise that echoed through the woods. It had a very low frequency lasting for only about two seconds. I thought it might be blasting at a pit mine or something. Later in the second day of hearing it, I realized it was the sound of the GAU-8 Avenger, the 30 mm gatling gun on the A-10 Thunderbolt aircraft that were swooping around through the valley and over the ridges. I thought the AF only did that kind of live-fire training out in the deserts of Nevada...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger

An Army Ranger friend has an unprintable name for that sound. Anyway, it was the last thing I expected to hear out in the AT in Pensylvania. Very much out of context and kind of bothersome.

Another memorable and ominous sound was the wind roaring across the mountains in Georgia in early March. Sounds like a train coming.
One of my favorite sounds is an owl hooting...

If I can hear a 30mm cannon, is it still wilderness?;)

John B
07-13-2006, 12:25
Just Jeff, I know a little bit about how research is conducted. Probably not nearly as much as you, but I get by.

I'm not a thru-hiker, but I know one member of WB who has a lot of distance hiking experience, both on the AT, the PCT, the CDT and other long trails, who would probably question if the majority of the AT can be considered as "wilderness." I believe that he described at as a 2,000 mile party with a few trees and hills getting in the way of town stops every couple of days. I"m sure that he was exaggerating to make a point, but it does raise an interesting issue.

I guess what I'm saying is that a bit of caution might be in order in terms of what is meant by 'wilderness.'

Jack Tarlin
07-13-2006, 13:56
To Darwin:

The reason you heard the sounds of weaponry there is because the Trail abuts one of the largest militaryfacilities in the East, Fort Indiantown Gap, which has been there since 1931, meaning it is older than much of the A.T.

I'm sorry you found noise from the area to be "weird", "out of context," and "bothersome."

For many of us, what you overheard was the sound of freedom. The people responsible for making those noises are the same people who provide you with the freedom to hike.

If you can't say "thank you," then have the grace to say nothing.

Just Jeff
07-13-2006, 14:05
Just Jeff, I know a little bit about how research is conducted. Probably not nearly as much as you, but I get by.

Hope I didn't come across as lecturing or condescending...that's not what I meant, and I appologize if that's how it sounded. I was just trying to continue the conversation! Maybe a few smilies would have helped. :-?

Tha Wookie
07-13-2006, 14:27
For many of us, what you overheard was the sound of freedom. The people responsible for making those noises are the same people who provide you with the freedom to hike.

If you can't say "thank you," then have the grace to say nothing.

I had an A-10 Warthog roar over when I was first experiencing the Grayson Highlands. It definitely stole the attention. He was probably <300 feet over the ground.

It didn't sound like freedom to me. In fact, it ruined it. It sounded more like a loud-ass war plane flying too close to a beautiful recreation area to me.

Tools of war don't automatically equal freedom. How does a mind get twisted into believing that I wonder.

But thanks for another patriotic chest-beating anyway, Jack.

Lone Wolf
07-13-2006, 14:29
Here goes another thread down the ***n drain.:rolleyes:

bfitz
07-13-2006, 14:37
jmaclennan, a member here on WB, also wrote a doctoral dissertation or some such thing on the AT. You should ask him about it.

Jack Tarlin
07-13-2006, 14:38
As I said, if one can't say "thank you" then it is prudent to say nothing.

Thanks for coming thru like a champ, Wook. From you, we expect no less.

I stand by by post above (#17) without any reservations whatsoever.

How curious......one person feels grateful to Americans who volunteer to serve in the Armed Forces, and appreciates their efforts. Another person resents what their doing, and feels that speaking in their behalf is nothing more than "patriotic chest-beating."

Sleep well in you bed, Wook, cause you know what? The men and women
who labor for your safety and welfare every day would do it anyway, without your thanks or appreciation.

The sacrifices they make on a daily basis encompass the spoiled, complacent, and ungrateful, along with everyone else.

bfitz
07-13-2006, 14:41
Wookie, that sounded like free speech you were exercising. You at least owe it to your forefathers who fought and died to give you that privelige to acknowledge what they suffered, and the tools they used. How many seconds of disruption did that A-10 cause?

Tha Wookie
07-13-2006, 14:54
How curious......one person feels grateful to Americans who volunteer to serve in the Armed Forces, and appreciates their efforts. Another person resents what their doing, and feels that speaking in their behalf is nothing more than "patriotic chest-beating."



No jack, one person hears a jet blasting out their eardrums in a National Park and the other hears Taps.

Planes and uniforms don't make heros, Jack. Actions do.

And doing a fly-by over a known national park is not a heroic thing, as this is not advised by the FAA for obvious and documented reasons.

Darwin was simply expressing his displeasure of the sound, and I don't understand why you gave such a unfriendly response.

Disaggree with me as you will, but for the record, and for Darwin's honest response to a thread topic about experience perspectives on the AT, I disagree with your approach in standing up for "freedom".

That's all I have to sa

Darwin again
07-13-2006, 15:07
To Darwin:
The reason you heard the sounds of weaponry there is because the Trail abuts one of the largest militaryfacilities in the East, Fort Indiantown Gap, which has been there since 1931, meaning it is older than much of the A.T.
I'm sorry you found noise from the area to be "weird", "out of context," and "bothersome."
For many of us, what you overheard was the sound of freedom. The people responsible for making those noises are the same people who provide you with the freedom to hike.
If you can't say "thank you," then have the grace to say nothing.
I would have found any similar noise bothersome, Jack.

Hello to you, too, Jack! Nice to meet you.
Nice to finally get personal attention from a real, actual, living, breathing trail legend. :welcome

you obviously didn't notice that didn't ascribe or assign any social or patriotic value to the noise. And it was noise. I don't know about other hikers on the AT, but I do find the sound of 30mm cannon fire to be out of context within the Appalachian Trail experience. It's unusual. That was my point before you hit the fool button and went jackass.

Thanks for the info about Fort Indiantown Gap. Despite your generally obnoxious demeanor, you do know a thing or two.

I suppose you'd call the sound of a crying child "collateral damage"?
Spare me your sanctimoniousness. Those who are responsible for that noise are also the ones who afford you the freedom to lounge on the AT to your heart's content while talking boldly to strangers. Additionally, I know the military community and the "people responsible for making those noises" to a degree to which you will never, ever be capable. (it's likely you've never served in the military yourself -- it's easy to sit safely at home and bang the patriotic drum, eh? The enlistment age has been raised to 42, but I imagine you're too old to sign up...)

But this is as far as I'm going to take your stinkbait. Why don't you go hike or something.

Nothing personal, Jack, but you shouldn't make a rhetorical jump like that without knowing at whom you're blowing your blathering.

It's interesting how when Jack jumps into a thread, it nearly always goes into the In-sink-er-ator? Gotta be the Alpha...;)

Jack Tarlin
07-13-2006, 15:11
The fly-by that Darwin objected to was taking place on a military base, Wook.

It's where the Air National Guard of Pennsylvania trains.

Would you prefer they didn't train at all, Wook?

Would you prefer that the Penn. Air Guard not train in Pennsylvania, but elsewhere? If so, where?

Would you prefer that the Pennsylvania Air Guard didn't exist?

And if noise in National Parks truly bothers you, how come you aren't bitching about cars in Shenandoah Park, hmmm? An AT hiker is disturbed by noise from civilian transportation around ninety times a day in Shenandoah, Wook. I assure you, it's a lot quieter when you walk by Fort Indiantown Gap. Or is it just that noise in National Parks only bothers you when it comes from the military.....gee whiz, what a surprise.

The only thing more foolish than Darwin's whining about a few seconds of noise (coming from a military base I might add!) was your even more foolish defense of it.

I guess "spoiled, complacent, and ungrateful" wasn't an adequate enough description for you.

Let's add witless.

Darwin again
07-13-2006, 15:13
<!-- / message --><!-- controls -->My post was about noises I heard in the woods on the AT, not about feeding the patriotism troll (Jack).

Darwin again
07-13-2006, 15:16
So what's your point, Jack? Or are you just in a real pissy mod today? Do yourself a favor and please don't take it out on others...

And calling Wook "witless" isn't a very witty way of extracting your foot from your mouth.

Tha Wookie
07-13-2006, 15:17
How curious......one person feels grateful to Americans who volunteer to serve in the Armed Forces, and appreciates their efforts. Another person resents what their doing, and feels that speaking in their behalf is nothing more than "patriotic chest-beating."



Planes and uniforms don't make heros. Actions do.

Doing a low fly-by over a national park is not an action that makes someone a hero or equates freedom. If you think so, then maybe you should direct your comments to the FAA, who discourage the practice.

All I was saying is I don't agree with your interpretation of Darwin (or my similar) experience. This thread is about perceptions of AT experience. Who are you to argue another's perceptions with third-party patriotism?

I'm sure you get all teary eyed and toot taps when a tankbuster tears over a strategically benign national park, and good for you Jack (and bfitz).

But the way I see it is that a man is a man regardless of what he wears or where he works. He's no superhero that escapes accountability. When a pilot flys that low over a national park he knows what he is doing. If I don't like it I can say so -especially when someone specifically asks for my perceptions. And so can Darwin. Not because we're Americans protected by war planes and missles, but because we're humans protected by decency and mututal respect.

Bfitz, it unfortunately appears the sounds to which Darwin and were referring are still causing disruption.

Jack Tarlin
07-13-2006, 15:18
Geez, my last post to Wookie came too soon.

Note to Darwin:

I say again, the sounds you object to came from a military base, one that has been around for a very long time.

Your "wilderness" experience was disturbed for merely a few moments.

Deal with it.

And as to telling me to go hiking, nimwit, I'm doing exactly that. In an hour, I'll be back on the Trail. It is YOU who are spending time on the Internet bemoaning the fact that military aircraft have the gall to make noise while training on a piece of land designed and earmarked expressly for that purpose.
Gee, I'm sorry if you feel all pissed off that pilots learning how to fly armed
aircraft have the nerve to actually fire off cannon while doing so.

Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds, Darwin?

Have a nice day, I gotta get back to the Trail.

And if I hear a military plane overhead, I'll look upwards and thank God for it.

Try it sometime.

Darwin again
07-13-2006, 15:20
BTW, my ARMY RANGER FRIEND calls the sound of a 30mm gatling gun "God farting.":D
I'm done here...

Peace, everyone!

Darwin again
07-13-2006, 15:23
Gee, I'm sorry if you feel all pissed off that pilots learning how to fly armed
aircraft have the nerve to actually fire off cannon while doing so.

But Jack, I'm NOT pissed. I never was. But I'm laughing at you for your idiotic straw-man argument, which you created because you seem to be in an argumentative mood.

Straw-Man Argument: Setting up a conflict and then arguing against it, knocking it down. It's a household trick in some fascist circles. But I wont' go there.

Go sell crazy someplace else, Jack. Ass.

The Solemates
07-13-2006, 15:45
Here goes another thread down the ***n drain.:rolleyes:

Wow, you called this one, didn't you? Back on topic, I cannot believe some can actually write a dissertation/thesis on this subject.

Ridge
07-13-2006, 16:09
Here goes another thread down the ***n drain.:rolleyes:


"Wilderness Experience" to me, means not hearing or seeing dogs or having their urine rub onto my legs from trailside vegatation.

Now, its down the ***n drain. LOL

MOWGLI
07-13-2006, 17:35
And if I hear a military plane overhead, I'll look upwards and thank God for it.



Does anyone really believe that god approves of military aircraft? Or ships? Or bullets? Or bombs? Or that he favors one country over another? That's not the God that I was brought up to understand.


Now, what was the topic again? :-?

Shutterbug
07-13-2006, 18:26
Now, what was the topic again? :-?

The topic was what it takes for a place to be "wilderness." As a former Air Force Pilot, I opted out of the discussion about the noise of aircraft. I suggest that the noise of aircraft flying over doesn't keep an area from being "wilderness",

Perhaps one could approach the definition of "wilderness" from the other direction -- what is it that causes us to value an area as "wilderness" --
1. The absence of activity common to civilization.
2. The presence of wild life.
3. The beauty of nature in its original state.
4. The feeling of independence that can only come from being away from communication and transportation.
5. The smell of nothing but trees growing and occasional wild life.

I spend time and money seeking such places. They are hard to find.

max patch
07-13-2006, 18:29
Wow, you called this one, didn't you? Back on topic, I cannot believe some can actually write a dissertation/thesis on this subject.

Ever go to a college library and peruse the published dissertations? Most -not all - but most are a total load of crap.

MOWGLI
07-13-2006, 19:10
In a serious reply to the poor bastard who started what has turned out to be a lame thread...

IMO, the biggest changes are metabolic. And that's coming from someone who resigned from the corporate world after a thru-hike to take a job with a non-profit organization.

The Solemates
07-14-2006, 08:28
Ever go to a college library and peruse the published dissertations? Most -not all - but most are a total load of crap.

Mine's not.

The Solemates
07-14-2006, 08:29
3. The beauty of nature in its original state.

good luck with that one.

alanthealan
07-14-2006, 08:49
I used to feel that I needed to be far away from other humans and their tailings to be enjoy nature, but not so much anymore. Now sure hearing the interstate or aircraft overhead can be disturbing, but that is the reality of our wilderness today. Wlderness is everywhere on some level, even in a city park or in the middle of New York you just have to look for it. Weither it is incects, birds, trees, plants, etc you can include humans too into this definition of the natural world or wilderness thee is always something to observe.

boulder
07-14-2006, 09:09
Max Patch, ever actually read any (even one) of those dissertations you mocked?

Tha Wookie
07-14-2006, 09:19
Mine's not.

Mine's not either.

It was used to get the support to fix the trails at Big South Fork NRA. And right now I'm working on edits in the review stage with the Journal of Environmental Management so the increased understanding of trail impacts may be shared with the world.

But in all fairness, some masters projects are pretty externally invalid.

One of the greatest things I ever heard said about this was Forest Service scientist Ken Cordell who said you have to keep asking "So what?" after every thesis until you have some good answers why.

max patch
07-14-2006, 12:08
Max Patch, ever actually read any (even one) of those dissertations you mocked?

Of course, or I wouldn't have said it. MOST are total BS. Some arn't.

boulder
07-14-2006, 15:28
Max Patch,
Having been in academe for more than 15 years, I have only had the opportunity to read 1 dissertation, my own. I am amazed that you have read "most" of them. I apologize for questionning your dedication to academic scholarship. With thousands of dissertations being written, on a wide variety of topics, each and every year, it is most impressive that you have read "most" of them carefully enough to label them BS.

StarLyte
07-14-2006, 15:30
Max Patch,
Having been in academe for more than 15 years, I have only had the opportunity to read 1 dissertation, my own. I am amazed that you have read "most" of them. I apologize for questionning your dedication to academic scholarship. With thousands of dissertations being written, on a wide variety of topics, each and every year, it is most impressive that you have read "most" of them carefully enough to label them BS.

Boulder---are you the Boulder that's thruhiking? Has a journal on TJs? Just curious.
Marsha

QHShowoman
07-14-2006, 15:33
Max: Did you read mine? And in which category did it fall?

Just wondering.

boulder
07-14-2006, 15:39
nope, different boulder.

MOWGLI
07-14-2006, 15:49
Max: Did you read mine? And in which category did it fall?

Just wondering.

Was that the one about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin? :rolleyes:

QHShowoman
07-14-2006, 15:53
No, actually, mine debated whether or not Adam had a navel.

sliderule
07-14-2006, 18:06
Having been in academe for more than 15 years

Hang in there. Not everone is a quick study!!!

superfly-SY
07-14-2006, 21:52
I remember the three days after 9-11. There was not a plane to be seen or heard anywhere in the Whites.
I do not think it was worth it.

SY

rickb
07-14-2006, 21:59
Having been in academe for more than 15 years, I have only had the opportunity to read 1 dissertation, my own. I am amazed that you have read "most" of them. I apologize for questionning your dedication to academic scholarship. With thousands of dissertations being written, on a wide variety of topics, each and every year, it is most impressive that you have read "most" of them carefully enough to label them BS.

He never said that he read "most" or even most.

MOWGLI
07-14-2006, 22:04
No, actually, mine debated whether or not Adam had a navel.

What was your thesis?