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greenmtnboy
07-11-2006, 18:08
I stayed at the hostel in Rutland a few days ago and found the people there polite, pleasant and hospitable. For around $15, it was good to have a shower and space to sleep away from the bugs, etc. Let's all try to be more positive--the old adage, if you don't have anything good to say, stay silent, is advisable. I have no axe to grind in this--only trying to practice the Golden Rule.

neo
07-11-2006, 20:12
I stayed at the hostel in Rutland a few days ago and found the people there polite, pleasant and hospitable. For around $15, it was good to have a shower and space to sleep away from the bugs, etc. Let's all try to be more positive--the old adage, if you don't have anything good to say, stay silent, is advisable. I have no axe to grind in this--only trying to practice the Golden Rule.

i plan on staying there in september:cool: neo

Wolf - 23000
07-12-2006, 16:18
I stayed at the hostel in Rutland a few days ago and found the people there polite, pleasant and hospitable. For around $15, it was good to have a shower and space to sleep away from the bugs, etc. Let's all try to be more positive--the old adage, if you don't have anything good to say, stay silent, is advisable. I have no axe to grind in this--only trying to practice the Golden Rule.

Greenmtnboy,

If you lost a good friend of 12-years due to the twelve tribes you might feel different. The people are polite, pleasant as you said but they will also sick you in the back if you don't become part of their belief.

It is a cult.

Wolf

bfitz
07-13-2006, 14:31
Not only a cult, but an abusive, exploitive, diabolical mind control group. The devil always has an inviting smile, remember that. The "golden rule" you refer to should not allow you to let a fellow being come to harm or walk into a trap.
Cults r' bad, m'kay?

Jack Tarlin
07-13-2006, 14:42
There was talk of a NEW hostel opening in Rutland this year ......does anyone know anything more about this?

RITBlake
07-13-2006, 15:58
Greenmtnboy,

If you lost a good friend of 12-years due to the twelve tribes you might feel different. The people are polite, pleasant as you said but they will also sick you in the back if you don't become part of their belief.

It is a cult.

Wolf

I stayed there last year during my thru hike. Great place, nice people and a very interesting experience. Thankfully no one tried to 'sick me in the back' whatever that means. Maybe they did and I just didn't feel it. I would recomend this hostel, it's in a great location, and is clean and comfortable.

davidderush
09-28-2006, 18:49
My friends live in the Rutland community that runs the hostel in question. The other night they had THIRTY ONE!!!! hikers there...amazing, really.

They have a couple of people there now who came as hikers for a night; and decided, as mature, grown up human beings, that the life they saw my friends living was worth taking a closer look at...so they have been living with my friends for the last month or so.

This of many hundreds who have simply enjoyed the warm hospitality and moved on as they planned.

Both kinds of people...the vast, vast majority who stay a night or two and move on...and the very few who visit longer...have been treated with fairness, kindness and respect...even love. No one has been "sicked in the back", whatever that is.

If one of these people decide the life my friends are living is what they want...well, good for them!

Wolf thinks he " lost a good friend of 12-years due to the twelve tribes"...but if he was a true friend, he would have been glad to have his friend do what was in his heart to do, wouldn't he?

Some people who claim to be "friends", are a cult unto themselves...if they can't control what their friends do, they don't want them anymore, because they can't use them.

My friends in Rutland really enjoy being hospitable....and the hundreds of hikers who have stayed there this year, in general, tell them that the warmth and love of their community was one of the highlights of their whole hike...one of the nicest places they stayed on the whole trail.

Having been there myself, I believe it.

Wolf should find a new friend, and give his bitterness an honest burial.

Sincerely,
David Derush

neo
09-29-2006, 09:11
:) i stay there last week,its behind the bus station,they operate a very nice cafe there also,i highly recommend staying there,the people there are very warm and friendly,i will stay again when i do the long trail in a couple years:cool: neo

RSWillis
09-29-2006, 11:51
stayed there a month and a half ago, and while the people are a little odd they certainly are friendly. I would stay there again in a heartbeat. Hubcap

ScottP
10-03-2006, 04:40
They were awesome. Thier model is a beehive, and they take the good of that life with the bad.

Wolf - 23000
10-04-2006, 23:20
My friends live in the Rutland community that runs the hostel in question. The other night they had THIRTY ONE!!!! hikers there...amazing, really.

They have a couple of people there now who came as hikers for a night; and decided, as mature, grown up human beings, that the life they saw my friends living was worth taking a closer look at...so they have been living with my friends for the last month or so.

This of many hundreds who have simply enjoyed the warm hospitality and moved on as they planned.

Both kinds of people...the vast, vast majority who stay a night or two and move on...and the very few who visit longer...have been treated with fairness, kindness and respect...even love. No one has been "sicked in the back", whatever that is.

If one of these people decide the life my friends are living is what they want...well, good for them!

Wolf thinks he " lost a good friend of 12-years due to the twelve tribes"...but if he was a true friend, he would have been glad to have his friend do what was in his heart to do, wouldn't he?

Some people who claim to be "friends", are a cult unto themselves...if they can't control what their friends do, they don't want them anymore, because they can't use them.

My friends in Rutland really enjoy being hospitable....and the hundreds of hikers who have stayed there this year, in general, tell them that the warmth and love of their community was one of the highlights of their whole hike...one of the nicest places they stayed on the whole trail.

Having been there myself, I believe it.

Wolf should find a new friend, and give his bitterness an honest burial.

Sincerely,
David Derush

David, my friend as a member of the twelve tribe, was told for four years her place was under a man. Her place was to do “women chores” , cooking, cleaning, raising children. Her option that she shared with me didn’t matter because it was the men in the community that knew “better” then her. She was told what to wear, what she was to teach the children, even what email account she was to use and finally who she could talk to. As you said, “Some people who claim to be ‘friends’ are a cult unto themselves”.

The twelve tribes is about trying to brainwash others to do their bidding also refer to as a cult.

Finally, I know you can never understand this but true friends don’t give up on one another. I doubt the two of us will ever speak again, so be it but before another person in a low point of their life stays in your community, I think it is only fair they know what the twelve tribes really stand for.

Wolf

Israel
10-08-2006, 19:14
Well, the beehive analogy is pretty good. Bees sound and look great until you are on the wrong side of them.....

Yes yes, I agree that to each their own if they want to live in the TT but disclosure as to their real structure and their real life sure would be good...one need only spend enough time there to learn there is more to the story than they tell you and one need only talk to a few of the ex-members to realize there is a A LOT that goes on that will not be seen until you are there a while.
And yes, I think we all agree the individuals in the community, overall, are very kind people. It is sad to see them so mentally and emotionally enslaved.

Remember the old adage about "if it looks too good to be true...."

So far it sounds like myself and Wolf are the only ones with any real practical experience with the group beyond just being a happy-go-lucky thru-hiker passing through and interestingly enough...we are the only ones putting forth a word of caution in this and the other thread about the TT.

Marta
10-08-2006, 21:01
I stayed there last month when I was passing through Vermont. I was the only hiker staying in the women's area that night. The room is lovely and the women's bathroom is the nicest one in any hostel I've been in. It's conveniently located near a big Wal-Mart, so it's easy to get town chores done.

Because of the way men and women are segregated, staying there was a lot less fun than other hostels--I had no one to talk to. Some of the commune members were extremely nice to me; some were fairly cold. A rather awkward situation arose when one member invited me to dinner in the restaurant (it was closed that day) and another one greeted me at the door and said, "We are not in the habit of feeding hikers."

The scary literature sprinkled liberally throughout the place should tip anyone off that their beliefs are not as benign as their smiles might lull you into thinking.

Tinker
10-08-2006, 21:35
The young man who talked with me at the pavilion at last year's Gathering was polite, friendly, and insistant he tried to win me over with a few Bible verses which we agreed on, but, when I told him that I believed that God has me in a church where he wants me, he kept suggesting that they had something better. I don't have the time, nor the inclination to move away from my church to try something different. His demeanor reminded me of the "Moonies" from the 1970's who lived down the street from me when I was in college - far away, disconnected look in his eyes and a constant smile.

I was in a cult for a number of years, and they used the Bible very effectively to control us by guaranteeing that God was interested in making life wonderful for us, praying on our selfish lusts. The Bible talks of the trials that are guaranteed to be part of the life of a follower of Christ. I'm reading the WHOLE Bible now, and finding this theme throughout.
From what I've heard of this group, the word of the leader takes precedent over the Bible. Call it whatever you will. Be cautious.

Rain Man
10-09-2006, 21:59
From what I've heard of this group, the word of the leader takes precedent over the Bible. Call it whatever you will. Be cautious.

You wouldn't be bad-mouthing the Catholics and their Pope, now would you???

Joking aside, I've yet to run into a religious sect (and that does includes Catholics, etc) who don't think THEIR guy has the direct dial to God.

It's just easy to pick on the newer sects and call them "cults." IMHO.

Rain:sunMan

.

the goat
10-09-2006, 22:17
why make fun of, or denigrate any religion or "cult"? if one doesn't believe what another group does, who cares?

if one cares enough to make fun or try to bring down another's beliefs, i would suspect it's because their belief structure is seriously lacking.:-?

Tinker
10-09-2006, 23:29
why make fun of, or denigrate any religion or "cult"? if one doesn't believe what another group does, who cares?

if one cares enough to make fun or try to bring down another's beliefs, i would suspect it's because their belief structure is seriously lacking.:-?

I just don't like to see the many manipulated and exploited for the gain of a few - religious or otherwise.

Greed is evil, the upper level of selfishness.

I have been the prey of others. I'd rather pray for others.

I do follow a man, but He is the perfect MAN, the son of the invisible God.

If you like nature now, wait until you see what it's like when it gets fixed.:banana

neo
10-10-2006, 08:23
easy feelin said he had a great stay there:cool: neo



Gray Spainhour (Easy Feelin')'s 2006
Appalachian Trail Journal


First (http://trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=132478) Previous (http://trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=160098) Next Last
Friday, October 06, 2006
Destination: Sherburne Pass/Rutland, VT
Starting Location: Lookout Cabin
Today's Miles: 17.00
Trip Miles: 431.40
Today was just a cool day.
But not this morning. No, this morning was {{cold}} and frosty. The gloves and toboggan were priceless.
But I got moving and it warmed up a bit. It's hard to get moving when it's cold--but once I do get going, the cool is much more pleasurable in comparison with the heat.
When I got to the trailhead, I needed to hitch into Rutland for resupply, and to pick up a package at the post office. I stuck my thumb out, and about 5 minutes later Patrick pulled his pickup over to the side. I threw all my stuff in the back and asked if he minded if a dirty and smelly hiker sat in the front. (Thanks Patrick!)
So I finally found the hiker hostel that accepts donations only. It's right in the middle of town and its ran by a Christian comunity called the Twelve Tribes. I went with Storytelller and 46er to their evening worship service and supper afterwards. I will write more on this later, but I will say that they are an extremely nice group of Christians who keep the Sabbath (from Friday's dusk to Sunday's dawn). I am so intrigued by these people and have so much to say that I'm having a hard time stopping right now.
But I have to because it's late and I'm tired. Hasta Manana,
~~Easy Feelin'
--The Woods are lovely, dark and deep, but I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep, and miles to go before I sleep.-- Robert Frost http://trailjournals.com/images/button_rate.gif (http://trailjournals.com/ratepost.cfm?Entry=160099&trailnameid=4451)

davidderush
10-12-2006, 20:03
Israel, I wish you could see how insulting and nonsensical your words look to someone like me, who absolutely LOVES the simple life of love and unity we have here in our communities of the Twelve Tribes. You say,

"And yes, I think we all agree the individuals in the community, overall, are very kind people. It is sad to see them so mentally and emotionally enslaved."

I am 52 years old, and I CHOOSE to be here every day. I am NOT "mentally and emotionally enslaved". I am THRILLED to have a life with such wonderful and "very kind" people as I now live with...and to have a context to wake up in the morning and forget about myself and live for the God I cannot see, by living for my friends that I can see.

Jesus said, "love each other as I have loved you"....we live for each other...and I spent my whole life looking for a life like this...

Wild horses could not drag me away from this life. And that is true of all of us who are here with our whole hearts. If anyone doesn't want to be here, they should LEAVE!....we don't even WANT people to be sharing our life who imagine they have something better to do...like live for themselves.

Does it ever occur to you that such "very kind" people may be "very kind" because they are actually CHOOSING to deny themselves to live the kind of life of love that human beings were actually created to live? It is possible?

It is not only possible, but true. Anyone who stays at the hostel and gets to know the people there, will know for sure that these are NOT "mentally and emotionally enslaved" people. They are actually the only people I have ever found in a lifetime of searching that are truly set free to love each other, and have true JOY as a result of that. You grossly insult and misrepresent what our life is.

Anyone with real experience in working with human beings, knows you CANNOT abuse people, "mentally and emotionally enslave" people, and have the result of it be that you end up with a bunch of people who are "very kind" and loving.

What is planted, is what grows. Abused people become abusive people...they don't become "very kind", much less full of love, peace and joy...and that is the kind of people I live with...people who have love, peace and joy. Be real, why don't you? "These people are abused!...and we all say also that "they are very kind". "

This is not reality.

I also find your comment below ignores the fact that there are THOUSANDS of us living in our communities around the world; and we ALL have more experience with our life than you do; and we are THRILLED to be living this life of love with our friends.

Ignoring that testimony, and taking as "gospel" the testimony of those who leave us, would be like evaluating the worth of Yale as a college by only weighing the experience of those who flunked out.

It is not an easy thing to give up your life to live entirely for others. Some try it and then change their minds and leave us. Why would anyone be surprised at that? And why would they imagine that the experience of those who leave us is the measure of the experience of those of us who stay and love our life? People who can't stay married tend to think that married life is hell...and maybe it was, for THEM...but that does not mean that it is that way for everyone. It isn't.

I am "married" to this life of love and unity...and I would rather die than live any other way, as long as this life exists here to be lived. And I know hundreds of people in our communities feel just like I do.

Israel, you go on....

"So far it sounds like myself and Wolf are the only ones with any real practical experience with the group beyond just being a happy-go-lucky thru-hiker passing through and interestingly enough...we are the only ones putting forth a word of caution in this and the other thread about the TT."

I have more practical experience with the "group" that either of you....and I say, go ahead and be cautious....but if you just relax and be real, you will find not a dangerous group, but some of the most real, down to earth and friendly and loving people on the whole planet...and you may also find a whole new way of life...if you happen to be looking for one.

If you are not looking for one, you will just find a very, very nice hostel...and have a great time with good people, and go your way.

That's great. We live from our hearts, and are happy to see others do the same.

And I am very glad to finally see this thread come down to earth....brought back into reality by the real experiences of real, normal people who have actually stayed there with my real, normal friends. It shows how bizarre all the fearmongering on this thread truly is. SOMEBODY is dangerous and unbalanced here, for sure...but it isn't my friends at the Rutland Hostel.

Sincerely,
David

davidderush
10-12-2006, 20:21
Wolf, thanks for telling us the source of your bitterness.

Essentially, your friend fell in love with the One we fell in love with...and with the life we share with one another...and left you behind.

That's a hard thing to swallow, for sure. But why don't you just accept it for what it is? She found a life with us that she loves more than the life she had with you.

If she had found such a life she loved more, with another man rather than with a group of people...would you be on such a crusade against him?

I don't know who this woman is, who used to be with you, and is now here with us....but she is here because she has chosen to be here. And to be in our life is a very good thing...for me, it has been like coming into light after living in the darkness. I am happy for your friend.

It would be nice if you could see the value in the choice she has made; and that is what it comes down to, Wolf...she made a choice, and continues to make that choice daily to be with us. You should respect that, if you truly respect her.

Sincerely,
David

sleeveless
10-12-2006, 21:41
I also had a pleasant overnight there last year on my thru hike. I did work for stay and was out of there in the morning. It was nice to stay in a clean hostel with a very clean bathroom. I ate in their cafe in the evening and had great food. I have also eaten in their cafe in Lancaster NH. I had an interesting talk with the couple that was running the hostel. Myself and a few other hikers asked them questions, just curious but I was not going to join or stay. They did not preach or seemingly try to influence us. Mostly
just friendly and answered questions.

Sleeveless '05

neo
10-13-2006, 02:35
Wolf, thanks for telling us the source of your bitterness.

Essentially, your friend fell in love with the One we fell in love with...and with the life we share with one another...and left you behind.

That's a hard thing to swallow, for sure. But why don't you just accept it for what it is? She found a life with us that she loves more than the life she had with you.

If she had found such a life she loved more, with another man rather than with a group of people...would you be on such a crusade against him?

I don't know who this woman is, who used to be with you, and is now here with us....but she is here because she has chosen to be here. And to be in our life is a very good thing...for me, it has been like coming into light after living in the darkness. I am happy for your friend.

It would be nice if you could see the value in the choice she has made; and that is what it comes down to, Wolf...she made a choice, and continues to make that choice daily to be with us. You should respect that, if you truly respect her.

Sincerely,
David
:) i am planning on visiting the community in chattanooga,i remember the yellow daisy resturant here in nsahville back in the 70,s,i think what you people are doing is wonderful,i really enjoyed my stay in rutland a few weeks ago,thanks again:cool: neo

Wolf - 23000
11-17-2006, 06:09
Wolf, thanks for telling us the source of your bitterness.

Essentially, your friend fell in love with the One we fell in love with...and with the life we share with one another...and left you behind.

That's a hard thing to swallow, for sure. But why don't you just accept it for what it is? She found a life with us that she loves more than the life she had with you.

If she had found such a life she loved more, with another man rather than with a group of people...would you be on such a crusade against him?

I don't know who this woman is, who used to be with you, and is now here with us....but she is here because she has chosen to be here. And to be in our life is a very good thing...for me, it has been like coming into light after living in the darkness. I am happy for your friend.

It would be nice if you could see the value in the choice she has made; and that is what it comes down to, Wolf...she made a choice, and continues to make that choice daily to be with us. You should respect that, if you truly respect her.

Sincerely,
David

David,

You are right; it is a hard thing to swallow. It's tough when Groups of so call “God Loving People” such as the 12 Tribes whom preach so much about love and happiness, would tell one of it own members who she should associate with.

To answer your question “If she had found such a life she loved more, with another man rather than with a group of people...would you be on such a crusade against him?” I’m not sure I’m following you. Most of my female friends that have gotten married, I still keep in touch, some of my friends even had children. Sometimes we’ll get together and go out for dinner or talk on the phone, etc. Their husbands know me and are fine with it. It’s something called trust. Their husbands trust their wife and me not to violate their marriage vows. It a beautiful thing!

Just a thought, but maybe the 12-Trible should learn to Trust their women partner instead of treat them like a child. Just a thought.

Wolf

MOWGLI
11-17-2006, 08:02
Essentially, your friend fell in love with the One...

Aha! Now I understand why Neo likes this group. They worship Him. ;)

Appalachian Tater
11-17-2006, 09:54
Did that other thread breed with the Devil and spawn this one?

James Case
11-30-2006, 13:26
If anyone has any real questions about the hostel in Rutland and the people that run it, please send me a pm or an email. I just don't want this stuff to fly at us defenselessly. I will be happy to talk to anyone about the twelve tribes with complete honesty. I have been here over ten years now.... I have no misconceptions about it, and I certainly have nothing to gain by misrepresenting what we're all about. The last thing I want living in my community's house is someone who is in the dark about what we're really like and what we really live for. I'm glad Israel isn't here with us, because if he hates our thing that much, I would never want him in my house. I'd much rather him be happy doing what he's doing. The same goes for those others who slam us all the time. Just ask if you have any questions or concerns.
James

Rain Man
11-30-2006, 18:21
Just a thought, but maybe the 12-Trible should learn to Trust their women partner instead of treat them like a child. Just a thought.

Would that good thought apply both ways?

Rain:sunMan
.

Wolf - 23000
12-02-2006, 20:23
Would that good thought apply both ways?

Rain:sunMan
.

RainMan,

Of Course it applies both ways. To me, any type of relationship weather it is a friendship, marriage, boy/girlfriend should always be base on trusting one another. If someone needs to tell their partner who they can associate with, what their place is (or as the twelve tribes put it; “their roles”), it no longer a partnership; it becomes a dictatorship instead. It is one of the reasons why I will speak out against the twelve tribes.

A woman purpose in life is not to do what the tribe demeans as, “woman chores”, cleaning, cooking, doing the laundry, etc. Men and women are equal. It something the twelve tribes can not understand, which is why all their leadership is male. I think it important for hikers or anyone else who stays with them to know what they are supporting.




James, you can B.S. someone into thinking the twelve tribes is about love and happiness in your pm messages, but I think it just shows how much your afraid hikers are going to learn the truth about the place. Both myself and Israel have experience what the twelve tribes stood for behinds the lies, and we’ll call B.S. when we see it.

Wolf

neo
12-02-2006, 20:30
the rutland community is awesome,i think the people there are wonderful
:cool: neo

Heater
12-02-2006, 21:10
If anyone has any real questions about the hostel in Rutland and the people that run it, please send me a pm or an email. I just don't want this stuff to fly at us defenselessly. I will be happy to talk to anyone about the twelve tribes with complete honesty.

Then, why not just answer the questions with complete honesty here rather than in a P.M. or email?

Just wondering...

:-? :confused:

James Case
12-10-2006, 09:15
Then, why not just answer the questions with complete honesty here rather than in a P.M. or email?

Just wondering...



I'm happy to do that, too, Austexs. I have nothing to hide and I don't think any of the rest of us do either.
James

neo
12-10-2006, 11:31
David,

You are right; it is a hard thing to swallow. It's tough when Groups of so call “God Loving People” such as the 12 Tribes whom preach so much about love and happiness, would tell one of it own members who she should associate with.

To answer your question “If she had found such a life she loved more, with another man rather than with a group of people...would you be on such a crusade against him?” I’m not sure I’m following you. Most of my female friends that have gotten married, I still keep in touch, some of my friends even had children. Sometimes we’ll get together and go out for dinner or talk on the phone, etc. Their husbands know me and are fine with it. It’s something called trust. Their husbands trust their wife and me not to violate their marriage vows. It a beautiful thing!

Just a thought, but maybe the 12-Trible should learn to Trust their women partner instead of treat them like a child. Just a thought.

Wolf


maybe you should get another girl friend a get over it,12 years of going around with hostile feelings is no good,i think your lady friend is in a great place in heart and soul,she would not be there unless she wanted to be
i myself want to get to know these wonderful people.i dont believe they are a harmful cult,they sound pretty biblical to me,i think they are heading in the right direction,the straight and narrow path and few find it:cool: neo

Heater
12-10-2006, 12:05
maybe you should get another girl friend a get over it,12 years of going around with hostile feelings is no good,i think your lady friend is in a great place in heart and soul,she would not be there unless she wanted to be
i myself want to get to know these wonderful people.i dont believe they are a harmful cult,they sound pretty biblical to me,i think they are heading in the right direction,the straight and narrow path and few find it:cool: neo


I'm happy to do that, too, Austexs. I have nothing to hide and I don't think any of the rest of us do either.
James

OK.

Neo said:
"i myself want to get to know these wonderful people.i dont believe they are a harmful cult,they sound pretty biblical to me,i think they are heading in the right direction,the straight and narrow path and few find it:cool: neo"

--

Neo has has expressed his interest in joining your community.
Would there ever be a circumstance in which him and his wife or loved ones would be mandatarily seperated from each other?

neo
12-10-2006, 12:16
OK.

Neo said:
"i myself want to get to know these wonderful people.i dont believe they are a harmful cult,they sound pretty biblical to me,i think they are heading in the right direction,the straight and narrow path and few find it:cool: neo"

--

Neo has has expressed his interest in joining your community.
Would there ever be a circumstance in which him and his wife or loved ones would be mandatarily seperated from each other?

i did not say i want to join anything,i just want to visit someday:cool: neo

Heater
12-10-2006, 13:22
i did not say i want to join anything,i just want to visit someday:cool: neo

OK. Sorry 'bout that Neo.:cool:

We'll just change it to "Austexs" has expressed an interest in joining the community.... etc...

;)

Wolf - 23000
12-11-2006, 13:21
maybe you should get another girl friend a get over it,12 years of going around with hostile feelings is no good,i think your lady friend is in a great place in heart and soul,she would not be there unless she wanted to be
i myself want to get to know these wonderful people.i dont believe they are a harmful cult,they sound pretty biblical to me,i think they are heading in the right direction,the straight and narrow path and few find it:cool: neo

Neo,

Would you feel the same when they tell you who you should associate with and who not too? Look around you, do your friends mean that little to you? What about becoming a member? Are you prepared to give up all your positions to give to their cause? If you believe in them that strong they are good people, why not? Have you ever heard the saying, “Don’t judge a book by it is cover”? This is why?

People who get suck into cults like the 12-tribes are not dumb, gullible people. They are sucked in by people that appear like general kind people. Once their in, is when they can do their brainwashing. I’ve visit the 12-tribes several time. I never said they were unfriendly while I was there.

To set the record straight, my friend was never my girl friend. We never dated, or did anything as a “couple”. We were just real good friends. Second, I knew my friend for 8 years prior to her joining the 12-tribes, 4 years as a member. I visit her several times. She hit a low point in her life before becoming a member.

Wolf

neo
12-11-2006, 13:59
Neo,

Would you feel the same when they tell you who you should associate with and who not too? Look around you, do your friends mean that little to you? What about becoming a member? Are you prepared to give up all your positions to give to their cause? If you believe in them that strong they are good people, why not? Have you ever heard the saying, “Don’t judge a book by it is cover”? This is why?

People who get suck into cults like the 12-tribes are not dumb, gullible people. They are sucked in by people that appear like general kind people. Once their in, is when they can do their brainwashing. I’ve visit the 12-tribes several time. I never said they were unfriendly while I was there.

To set the record straight, my friend was never my girl friend. We never dated, or did anything as a “couple”. We were just real good friends. Second, I knew my friend for 8 years prior to her joining the 12-tribes, 4 years as a member. I visit her several times. She hit a low point in her life before becoming a member.

Wolf



how is she doing now,is she happy,are you still friends:cool: neo

Wolf - 23000
12-11-2006, 17:03
how is she doing now,is she happy,are you still friends:cool: neo

Don't know. She was told to cut all tied with me two years ago. I haven't talked or seen her since. Out of respect, on her last call to me, she told me why. The 12-tribes doesn’t believe a man and a woman should be as close of friends as us unless their married. To clarified, when I use the word friends; it means just that, not things a couple would do.

The 12-tribe believes is a man has his roll and a woman has her under him. A woman option is not valued the same as a man.


Wolf

neo
01-25-2007, 14:23
the hostel in rutland is the best in vermont,12 tribes community are some of the nicest people i have met on my section hike:cool: neo

neo
01-25-2007, 14:49
the hostel in rutland is the best in vermont,12 tribes community are some of the nicest people i have met on my section hike:cool: neo

:) the best hostel in vermont:cool: neo

ridgewalker777
07-05-2007, 13:50
Yes, hospitable, with really good natural beverages and food. It would, however, be great if a hiker or two could organize such a place without the commune philosophy of voluntary poverty, which requires prospective members to sell all wealth and possessions and distribute to the TT or the poor. These and other communal groups have received substantial wealth from entering members, leaving them with little should a change in attitude, family or other needs arise later--The Bruderhoff, for example.

James Case
07-05-2007, 14:30
I learned to share in preschool. I just do it in the community I live in because I want to. No one forces me to share with my friends. Love is what forces me to. No one should ever consider trying to do what we do because they think they have to. It is only a matter of doing what we have the desire in our hearts to do. Love is the motivating force, not good principles.

Yahtzee
07-05-2007, 15:30
There was a twelve tribes thruhiker in '01. Very nice kid. Huge appetite. Taught him to swing a bat. He had never swung a baseball bat before, i was amazed. When I told him over a cup of coffee that he was in a cult, he didn't seem to mind. He was one serene cat. I believe the term "drank the Kool-aid" applied to him. Along with "bad-ass hiker" and "non-stop buffet destroying monster".

I agree with Rainman. A cult is a cult is a cult.

Jack Tarlin
07-05-2007, 17:17
Yahtzee---

Not to open a can of worms or anything, cuz to be frank, I'm not entirely sure what I think about the 12 Tribes....but around 2000 years ago, the power that-be in Roman-occupied Palestine viewed early Christianity as a dangerous cult, and something to be avoided, feared, and suppressed.

Something to think about maybe. :-?

James Case
07-05-2007, 17:31
I think the person Yahtzee was referring to was probably not from our communities. Maybe some other group of people.

As far as the thing Jack said, it is definitely something to consider. I suggest reading the words of a man named Gamaliel in the Bible. Acts 5:34-39

Heater
07-05-2007, 17:45
Yahtzee---

Not to open a can of worms or anything, cuz to be frank, I'm not entirely sure what I think about the 12 Tribes....but around 2000 years ago, the power that-be in Roman-occupied Palestine viewed early Christianity as a dangerous cult, and something to be avoided, feared, and suppressed.

Something to think about maybe. :-?

If you had a half million bucks of assets... and were asked to "donate it all" would you still be not so sure?

:-?

Times change and JC aint living at 12 tribes as far as I know...

Jack Tarlin
07-05-2007, 18:20
Austexs--

Lifting a chosen serene, ascetic lifestyle goes back thousands of years in Christian traditon.

In later years thousands of people in the Franciscan and Dominican monastic orders adopted this lifestyle. And they did a great deal of good in the process.

Choosing to live like this is ultimately a voluntary decision.

Would I choose to live like this....or donate all my worldly assets to a religious group?

Well, not this week, but just because I wouldn't doesn't mean I'm qualified to judge anyone who feels differently.

Wolf - 23000
07-05-2007, 19:14
Jack and others,

This is far from a Christian group. A Christian group believes in serving GOD, the twelve tribes believes in serving their tribe. If you are not a member of the tribe, they believe your going to HELL.

The only reason why they have the hostel is to recruit new members. Even if a handful of thru-hikers join their cause, give up everything to the tribe … all their positions, their real friends, maybe even their family and agreed to work for free for the tribe’s cause. It more then pays for itself in their eyes. I suggest all stay as far away from the place as possible.

Wolf

Lone Wolf
07-05-2007, 19:32
cults and organized churches suck.

James Case
07-05-2007, 20:23
I think organized religion is awful, too, just like you said. I love the twelve tribes, though. Been here over a decade. It's not like you think. Really... We gain a lot more debt through new members joining us than we gain assets. We do it to help people.

Jack Tarlin
07-05-2007, 20:29
If the new members are working, and help support themselves and the community they've just joined, then how does this add debt? :-?

I'm not being argumentative, James, I'm just curious.

And what is "organized" religion by the way?

Isn't your community "organized" in various ways, i.e doesn't it have leaders, traditions, rituals, writings, commandments, codes of conduct, regulations?

Please tell us what you mean by "organized".

Wolf - 23000
07-05-2007, 21:48
I think organized religion is awful, too, just like you said. I love the twelve tribes, though. Been here over a decade. It's not like you think. Really... We gain a lot more debt through new members joining us than we gain assets. We do it to help people.

James,

I’m sure you do love the twelve tribes, but it also the only life you real know. All your friends, family, etc are also members I’m sure. The twelve tribes has some very good true people but it also have a very dark side too that destroys any beauty it could every offer... I know, I spent several days with the twelve tribes in NY.

New members have to give up a lot more then what you think. Image the tribe telling you to break you are tied with any one of your friends, family, people that care about you, give up all your positions - Even a faithful dog. Could you do it? Don’t say it would never happen, but it has been done before and will happen again.

To answer Jack question, “If the new members are working, and help support themselves and the community they've just joined, then how does this add debt?” Some members do join with significant amount of debt (over spent credit cards, bad credit, etc.) The tribe absorbs this debt too as it was explain to me. But even a new member with $10,000 worth of bad debt, is going to more then make up the different after the turn over all their assets and working for free. In a matter of months the tribe has more than made up the different if you look at how much it would cost them if they had to pay someone for working. Labor is cheap when you don’t have to pay someone.

Wolf

Yahtzee
07-05-2007, 22:03
"I think the person Yahtzee was referring to was probably not from our communities. Maybe some other group of people." Nope. This kid was in the twelve tribes. You don't forget a religion named twelve tribes.


Jack, I think all "ways" are cults. And since this is just another bible-based cult like the ones I have already dismissed, it made dismissing this as a cult that much easier.

Would I stay there? Sure, why not. But I'd mostly likely be camped across the street from the Inn at the Long Trail or sleeping in a room there.

DavidNH
07-05-2007, 22:58
Somehow I destinctly remember this exact thread being hashed out here on white blaze months back..maybe a year back. Why do we have to to it all over again?

I sorta remembered they showed up at the last gathering in Hanover. Seemed really nice.. this one lady Patience sticks in my mind.

Anyway.. with all the talk of them being cultish I think there is reason to pause and think.

personally I love the Inn at the Long Trail.. there food can't be beat and its pleasant ant comfy. It is money yes..but ok..I am willing to shell it out at that point!! btw.. one of finest hot chocolates on the AT!

David

James Case
07-06-2007, 09:15
This is great. I love these types of questions. Yes, it does add debt when people move in with debt. They had debt and now we all have it shared between us. Yes, they sometimes to turn into working members that help bring the community income, but that income is also used to pay the bills for the food they eat and the utilities they consume, etc. If you have ever spent time with us, you might have noticed we are barely scraping by in most of our locations. Is this because we send a bunch of money to some fund the leader or leaders only have access to? No, we actually don't. We are usually in this state because we pull lots of the people out of money-making positions and have them teach children in our home-school-type classrooms and have them do a bunch of other non-income-earning stuff like subsistence farming and remodeling our older houses, etc. I'm saying this as the one in charge of the money, too, not just as someone in the dark about it.
And as far as the thing about me not knowing any other life. You got me all wrong. I have no family here except the woman I married here and the boy we are raising. I didn't grow up here. I went to college and opted out of the career world I was heading for to live by the desires in my heart to love others and have the special togetherness we share. You should see it. We have a much better life than you are thinking. We have a farm here in Asheville, North Carolina where I live now that is developing very well. Animals, a large garden. We even make bio-diesel for our own use. Come check it out. www.gladheartfarms.com - We don't bite... As for those that dismiss what we're doing as a cult. Well, that's fine. We're not looking to prove anything to anyone. We make no apology about loving God. If you have reasons you think we're something scary, well, no one's forcing you to visit or join us. Please keep your comments at least somewhat dignified and appropriate, though. It starts to get a bit depressing when people are full of bitterness and anger over something they really know nothing about. We are human beings, after all, not cult-machines that don't have feelings and hearts.

I look forward to any other questions you may have... keep them coming.
James

ridgewalker777
07-06-2007, 17:03
This hostel, the quality of hospitality and example of fellowship sets a good example for hikers. There is some Scripture about provoking others to do good or godliness--my hope is that there be openness by both hikers and the Twelve Tribes so that both benefit. I would gladly work at one of their farms, etc. to help out learn sociability and acceptance, etc. if there were no expectations that by doing so I were joining. Rutland is not known as the most virtuous city. Perhaps they are setting a really good example to their neighbors and others will imitate their good behaviour

greenmtnboy
07-11-2007, 13:38
It would be good to debate Bible teachings with their own. I was challenged by them on Luke 14--"no man can be my disciple unless he forsakes all that he has", unless you hate father and mother you cannot, etc. If you read the chapter you will see it is not a mandate, but rather a challenge to put Christ first. What about Titus and 1Timothy? It says an overseer must rule his own house well in order to be entrusted with church rule...How, pray tell, is this possible if he has no possessions or freedom of autonomy? Virtue untested is not virtue. How can others be provoked to do good if there is the belief that you must join up because their example cannot be immitated. The Pope said as much the other day that their is no other way than the RC church...

Jack Tarlin
07-11-2007, 13:43
Speaking of useful quotes from the Good Book, it wouldn't hurt to have a look at Matthew 7:15, either. :rolleyes:

Dr O
07-11-2007, 14:24
Wolf, thanks for telling us the source of your bitterness.

Essentially, your friend fell in love with the One we fell in love with...and with the life we share with one another...and left you behind.

That's a hard thing to swallow, for sure. But why don't you just accept it for what it is? She found a life with us that she loves more than the life she had with you.

If she had found such a life she loved more, with another man rather than with a group of people...would you be on such a crusade against him?

I don't know who this woman is, who used to be with you, and is now here with us....but she is here because she has chosen to be here. And to be in our life is a very good thing...for me, it has been like coming into light after living in the darkness. I am happy for your friend.

It would be nice if you could see the value in the choice she has made; and that is what it comes down to, Wolf...she made a choice, and continues to make that choice daily to be with us. You should respect that, if you truly respect her.

Sincerely,
David

There is no respect for groups who alienate people from their friends and/or family. I don't care what whoever's god told them.

James Case
07-11-2007, 15:27
Good word, Jack. My thoughts exactly. I think we're more tested in these things greenmtnboy mentions than anyone. The only difference is that in the community setting, one can actually do the things taught in the gospels. It's nice to be able to do them. Also, the letters were written to communities, not churches as we know them.
James

James Case
07-11-2007, 15:36
Well, I appreciate your thoughts, Dr. O, but you might want to find out a little more info before you cast us off as a result of hearing one side of a story.
James

Dr O
07-11-2007, 16:20
Well, I appreciate your thoughts, Dr. O, but you might want to find out a little more info before you cast us off as a result of hearing one side of a story.
James

The sides of the story are irrelevant to the fact that there is no respect for people who cut people off from friends and family. There's no ambiguity here that would benefit from knowing your side. It's bad fruit. Knowing why it was picked doesn't change the fact it shouldn't have been.

Mother's Finest
07-11-2007, 16:58
:-?
Yahtzee---

Not to open a can of worms or anything, cuz to be frank, I'm not entirely sure what I think about the 12 Tribes....but around 2000 years ago, the power that-be in Roman-occupied Palestine viewed early Christianity as a dangerous cult, and something to be avoided, feared, and suppressed.

Something to think about maybe. :-?

Yes, that is something to think about. I put both groups in the same basket.

And I feel the same way about both groups. I do not want to join either one.

That said, I love LIFE. My best friend from this board considers himself a hardcore follower of Jesus. What any individual or group wants to do should be up to them, so long as it does not infringe on my own rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. (I know I am a closet libertarian.....ooops, I mean registered)

peace
MF

Jack Tarlin
07-11-2007, 17:05
Well, speaking for myself, I DON'T put both of these groups in the same basket.

There's no shortage of information out there on the 12 Tribes. It's freely available to anyone who is interested. I suggest people try and keep an open mind, that they get better informed, and that they then make up their own minds about this.

And to James.......when I suggested people have a look at Matthew 7:15 to see what I really think of this situation, I'm afraid you entirely missed my point.

It's called "irony." Sorry you missed it.

leeki pole
07-11-2007, 17:41
Well, speaking for myself, I DON'T put both of these groups in the same basket.

There's no shortage of information out there on the 12 Tribes. It's freely available to anyone who is interested. I suggest people try and keep an open mind, that they get better informed, and that they then make up their own minds about this.

And to James.......when I suggested people have a look at Matthew 7:15 to see what I really think of this situation, I'm afraid you entirely missed my point.

It's called "irony." Sorry you missed it.
Heh, heh...I caught it Jack. Wonder if LW did?:D

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 18:41
Heh, heh...I caught it Jack. Wonder if LW did?:D

These sure ain't funny www.twelvetribes-ex.org/ (http://www.twelvetribes-ex.org/)

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 18:42
These sure ain't funny www.twelvetribes-ex.org/ (http://www.twelvetribes-ex.org/)

meant to say dirtybirds. cultists.

Wolf - 23000
07-11-2007, 19:35
James,

Before I respond to your post, I would like to ask you or any tribe member why when someone speaks out against something the tribe or a tribe member has done, the responds is always the same or similar, “You must be mistaken”. Yahtzee, spoke of one of your members, “I think the person Yahtzee was referring to was probably not from our communities. Maybe some other group of people.” Don’t you think that when people are speaking out, some of what they say might be true?

When I stated all your friends, family, etc are also members, I wasn’t wrong - your wife and son the only family you have are members. - “I have no family here except the woman I married here and the boy we are raising.” I’m not saying that to attack you or your family, but only to point out when we don’t expand our circle we as human become complacency – we accept things that normal we would not as a way of life.

“Yes, it does add debt when people move in with debt. They had debt and now we all have it shared between us. Yes, they sometimes to turn into working members that help bring the community income, but that income is also used to pay the bills for the food they eat and the utilities they consume, etc. If you have ever spent time with us, you might have noticed we are barely scraping by in most of our locations.”

I have spent time at the Twelve-Tribe and I believe I said the same thing. Different words but same meaning.

As for used to pay bills for food, utilities, etc., I think we should bring that down to prospective. Members have no major electric appliances (TV, radio, Dish-washer, etc - things found in a normal house hold.) The only electric utilities I saw were the lights in the house and a sink in the kitchen and bathroom and a computer in a barn used for business (Cambridge, NY). The housing is a bunk house style, several people per/room, little room for personal items/clothes. That their life style which is neither good nor bad. It’s just different. But don’t try to make it out to being a huge expense.

Is this because we send a bunch of money to some fund the leader or leaders only have access to? No, we actually don't. We are usually in this state because we pull lots of the people out of money-making positions and have them teach children in our home-school-type classrooms and have them do a bunch of other non-income-earning stuff like subsistence farming and remodeling our older houses, etc. I'm saying this as the one in charge of the money, too, not just as someone in the dark about it.

Please don’t try to make it to be some noble cause your doing. The teachers that I have seen both in NY and during the Washington, DC gathering have always been the women. “It is their role”, as it was explain to me. Women in the tribe are not trusted with the finances nor would they ever be place in a money making position.

Sundance, Estée Lauder, LL Bean one of the most well known company on this site refuse to carry Twelve Tribes products because of all things their child labor laws.


Sect Children are Used to Abuse - http://www.rickross.com/reference/tribes/tribes19.html
State Probes Cult in Child-Labor Scandal -http://www.rickross.com/reference/tribes/tribes17.html


Companies such as Estee Lauder and LL Bean, which are not particularly progressive, figured this out long ago and stopped carrying Twelve Tribes products. There is no context in which such hate speech is acceptable. And it shouldn’t take consultation with a “spiritual” or “moral leader” to figure this out.

Is the Twelve Tribes a Cult?
- http://www.goodmanson.com/2005-11/02/is-the-twelve-tribes-a-cult/ (bottom)

Should I go on?

Wolf

Lone Wolf
07-11-2007, 19:56
being a lone wolf is best. a community of 1

James Case
07-11-2007, 20:40
Well, all I know is that I used to be a community of one, and I'm a lot happier now that I'm not. You can say all these things about us, but it only makes me more convinced and more grateful that I love what I'm doing and don't have any regret. It's too bad people act like this. They treated their Messiah the same way...

Skidsteer
07-11-2007, 20:47
Well, all I know is that I used to be a community of one, and I'm a lot happier now that I'm not. You can say all these things about us, but it only makes me more convinced and more grateful that I love what I'm doing and don't have any regret. It's too bad people act like this. They treated their Messiah the same way...

Sounds like you got a good thing going.

So why is it so important to you what Wolf23000, L.Wolf, myself, or anybody else on White Blaze thinks of you or your group?

Dr O
07-11-2007, 22:31
Well, all I know is that I used to be a community of one, and I'm a lot happier now that I'm not. You can say all these things about us, but it only makes me more convinced and more grateful that I love what I'm doing and don't have any regret. It's too bad people act like this. They treated their Messiah the same way...

You rationalise the illegal exploitation of children by explaining the womb this group provides you is comfortable to you?

What's a reasonable, unbiased person supposed to think of that?

Appalachian Tater
07-12-2007, 00:51
James Case, I must say that you seem very calm and self-assured compared to some of your detractors.

It also appears that neither side has convinced the other of anything. Perhaps if you invited them to stay in your community for a few weeks (working or paying, of course), they might see it for themselves and be able to form an opinion based on their own experiences.

James Case
07-12-2007, 07:43
You are definitely all invited to come and spend some time getting to know what it's really like. All the accusations will most likely be dispelled if you do. They definitely did for me.
thanks, appalachain tater,
James

Wolf - 23000
07-12-2007, 13:06
Well, all I know is that I used to be a community of one, and I'm a lot happier now that I'm not. You can say all these things about us, but it only makes me more convinced and more grateful that I love what I'm doing and don't have any regret. It's too bad people act like this. They treated their Messiah the same way...

Come on James, As one of the leaders, I’m sure you were aware of this, the news reports, the state and federal investigations, the fines the community had to pay, the child abuse, etc, the separating members from the friends or family, but because they are not part of the tribe?

You say you love children. Below is a link of a 2005 court case that the twelve tribe fought up to VT High Court. One of you own members, Stanzione was ordered in 1991 to pay $50 per week in child support when she and her husband divorced and he left the religious community to return to Vermont along with three of the couple's five children, according to court papers. Anyone who has kids knows $50 a week to support kids is not a lot of money. Rather than tribe paying the child support like they were order to, the tribe fought it in court before finally told by the VT High Court to pay up.

http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050905/NEWS/509050320/1003&template=printart (http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050905/NEWS/509050320/1003&template=printart)


You can hide in your farm and pretend this stuff doesn’t happen, but this stuff is for real! This is not stuff that just made up. These are facts. It scares me that places like the twelve tribe are out there. You can talk about your love in God all you want but what kind of God loving man would be any part of a community that has been found guilty of abusing children or do what ever it took to avoid taking care of three of their tribe members children?

Actions speak louder than words. This is what your tribe stands for.

Wolf

Wolf - 23000
07-12-2007, 13:20
James Case, I must say that you seem very calm and self-assured compared to some of your detractors.

It also appears that neither side has convinced the other of anything. Perhaps if you invited them to stay in your community for a few weeks (working or paying, of course), they might see it for themselves and be able to form an opinion based on their own experiences.

Appalachian Tater,

I have spent time with the tribe, visit them in VT or Washington DC, on several occasions even spent spend the night before. How do you think I know all this stuff? Not everything is as it seems.

Wolf

Appalachian Tater
07-12-2007, 13:30
Appalachian Tater,

I have spent time with the tribe, visit them in VT or WashingtonDC, on several occasions even spent spend the night before. How do you think I know all this stuff? Not everything is as it seems.

Wolf

That is why I said "some of your detractors" instead of "all of your detractors" or "your detractors".

Obviously you aren't going to change your opinion, nor is James Case, so there is little use in arguing with each other.

James Case
07-12-2007, 14:02
All these news posts and weblinks are just missing one thing: the truth. If you believe everything you read on the web, please don't visit our communities. You wouldn't fit in. No children have ever been abused in any of the twelve tribes communities I've lived in. The one person I have lived with who committed such acts was kicked out long ago and is now in jail. And my friend Ms. Stanzione was definitely justified taking her case the high court. If you're going to accuse someone. Please accuse someone who's done something wrong. She hasn't.
I just want you all to know that there's plenty of negative things said about all the best things on Earth. I know better than to believe everything in the press and so should you. The only way to know what we're all like is to see it yourself. Those who already have and still don't like us are free to stay away. We aren't looking to convince anyone to join our ranks unless they want to. I don't plan on posting anything else on here about this topic because I really don't see the point. If you have questions, feel free to ask, but as for this back and forth stuff, I'm all done.

James

Heater
07-12-2007, 14:29
All these news posts and weblinks are just missing one thing: the truth. If you believe everything you read on the web, please don't visit our communities. You wouldn't fit in. No children have ever been abused in any of the twelve tribes communities I've lived in. The one person I have lived with who committed such acts was kicked out long ago and is now in jail. And my friend Ms. Stanzione was definitely justified taking her case the high court. If you're going to accuse someone. Please accuse someone who's done something wrong. She hasn't.
I just want you all to know that there's plenty of negative things said about all the best things on Earth. I know better than to believe everything in the press and so should you. The only way to know what we're all like is to see it yourself. Those who already have and still don't like us are free to stay away. We aren't looking to convince anyone to join our ranks unless they want to. I don't plan on posting anything else on here about this topic because I really don't see the point. If you have questions, feel free to ask, but as for this back and forth stuff, I'm all done.

James

The repeating mantra here. "come to us". Yeah right.

Why are you leaving now? Kitchen getting too hot? You can live by the strict code of the old bible or be left behind as not worthy, right? You must stay and defend or be left behind by the rest of the "chosen ones" on their journey to everlasting peace in heaven.

You will always believe in him, always expect the best of him, and always stand your ground in defending him." (1 Corinthians 13:4-7

Skidsteer
07-12-2007, 17:51
James. Do you hike?

James Case
07-12-2007, 19:49
Yes, I hike.

James Case
07-12-2007, 19:50
As for the things people were saying above. You know, you can say all these things about us if you like, but we'll continue caring for all the hikers we can.
James

Lone Wolf
07-12-2007, 21:51
As for the things people were saying above. You know, you can say all these things about us if you like, but we'll continue caring for all the hikers we can.
James

as long as they pay $$. all churches/cults are the same.

Nightwalker
07-13-2007, 02:26
Speaking of useful quotes from the Good Book, it wouldn't hurt to have a look at Matthew 7:15, either. :rolleyes:

They're everywhere Jack. One way to tell is that there's generally money involved somewhere. :-?

Nightwalker
07-13-2007, 02:36
as long as they pay $$. all churches/cults are the same.

There's no way that you can know that, since there's no way that you've visited them all. Or are you just smarter than the rest of us? :-?

Lone Wolf
07-13-2007, 07:00
yeah, pretty much

Nightwalker
07-13-2007, 07:10
yeah, pretty much

Well, then I'm just glad to have crossed your path. :)

Nightwalker
07-13-2007, 07:13
Well, then I'm just glad to have crossed your path. :)

But no, seriously, don't drink about 5 or 6 big cups of hot tea so as to make extra miles on the last day of a hike. Know what I mean? Whew. I may sleep later Heh. :banana

minnesotasmith
07-14-2007, 02:21
1) When I was there in late October 2006, they were kind and generous. They were friendly, mostly willing to converse, and interested in doing so. Staying with them helped my hike and my peace of mind. I had no issues of any kind with them. I heard indirectly of women hikers who did not like being forced to stay in a separate room (away from men hikers, e.g., most of their friends), and I could see couples being irritated at not being able to sleep together there. As a male with no female I was involved with along, this was a nonissue for me.

2) To get along with nonmembers better, they'd do well to use the standard English word for Jesus, e.g., "Jesus". (In Israel, where Hebrew is the language, "Yawheh" is fine. America is not Israel.) Men members cutting their hair to normal length would be wise as well. (The Mormons have even odder beliefs, and can manage this, so I don't see the problem.) Long hair on men equates to being counterculture, lower-class, lacking in personal hygiene, etc., to many people, so keeping hippie-length hair just causes them pointless difficulties. If they can cut their foreskins, they can cut their hair.

saimyoji
07-14-2007, 08:32
If they can cut their foreskins, they can cut their hair.


Now that is classic MS. :eek:

Appalachian Tater
07-14-2007, 17:14
Minnesota Smith, how do you know they cut their foreskins?

Heater
07-14-2007, 18:22
Minnesota Smith, how do you know they cut their foreskins?

I read somewhere on their website that they think they will not get into heaven if they don't.

prozac
07-14-2007, 22:43
"Religion is the opiate of the masses" -Karl Marx. Organized religion is a major source of the world's woes today and has been for thousands of years. Too many people just use it as another criteria for discrimination. Too many hypocrites and not enough people practicing what they preach. Its real easy to live a moral live without it. The only religion you need is the Golden Rule.

minnesotasmith
07-14-2007, 23:32
When Karl Marx said that, supposedly his point was that religion was a pain reliever for the masses, more so than it was a mind-altering drug. This assessment goes well with how opium was primarily made use of in Europe at the time he lived.

Skidsteer
07-14-2007, 23:40
When Karl Marx said that, supposedly his point was that religion was a pain reliever for the masses, more so than it was a mind-altering drug. This assessment goes well with how opium was primarily made use of in Europe at the time he lived.

I'm a modestly religious man.

Re foreskin surgery; I'll have the opium please.

minnesotasmith
07-15-2007, 00:21
"Organized religion is a major source of the world's woes today and has been for thousands of years.

Actually, at least in the past 75+ years, atheists have been the primary mass murderers in the world.

From http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM :

(I put known atheist regimes in red; Muslims are in green)

II 128,168,000 VICTIMS: THE DEKA-MEGAMURDERERS


4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State


5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill


6. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State


7. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime [China]III 19,178,000 VICTIMS: THE LESSER MEGA-MURDERERS


8. 5,964,000 Murdered: Japan's Savage Military


9. 2,035,000 Murdered: The Khmer Rouge Hell State


10. 1,883,000 Murdered: Turkey's Genocidal Purges


11. 1,670,000 Murdered: The Vietnamese War State


12. 1,585,000 Murdered: Poland's Ethnic Cleansing


13. 1,503,000 Murdered: The Pakistani Cutthroat State


14. 1,072,000 Murdered: Tito's SlaughterhouseIV 4,145,000 VICTIMS: SUSPECTED MEGAMURDERERS


15. 1,663,000 Murdered? Orwellian North Korea

Lone Wolf
07-15-2007, 00:21
religion is darnassinine. spirituality is the bomb

Skits
07-15-2007, 04:34
I spent four days with the 12 tribes when I was on the Appalachian Trail in 2004. They had a wedding while I was there and as part of the wedding had a play representing their spiritual beliefs. I helped set up stages and tents and tables, etc. and they talked to me a lot about their beliefs. I also attended one of their morning get togethers where they sing and dance. I never felt any pressure at all to join. (I'm an agnostic if that matters).

One of my hiking friends stayed with the tribes much longer. She was of a similar religion based mainly on following the old testament (very jewish-related other than the 'small' fact that they believe in Jesus as the lord and savior). Anyway she celebrated one of their festivals with them and lived in the house with members of the tribe and thought very seriously about joining. In the end she decided against it and continued hiking.

If you do join the tribe it is a very serious commitment. You are giving up a certain type of lifestyle for another lifestyle. It all felt too confining to me and I would have no interest in it. But for some it obviously fits them. The trouble comes IMO in the seperation from your old life once you join. It doesn't necessarily fit well with those left on the outside as the tribe becomes your new family. The parents of the bride were at the wedding I was at, but seemed very out of place and not completely comfortable. I also wonder about children who are born into the tribe and what choices they have.

I have mixed feelings about the place. Everyone I met was extremely friendly and answered any and all questions without any pressure. But it still felt like a cult and overly confining to me. I would not hesitate to stop back in and stay at the hostel and talk to the people again when I venture past on my next AT hike. And of course the food at their cafe is awesome.

I would just suggest that anyone thinking of joining the 12 tribes, take some time away from them and spend a bit with their own families or other friends, before deciding if that is the place they want to commit to.

I haven't read all the posts on this thread so don't know if this was posted, but here are some web sites on the 12 tribes

http://www.twelvetribes.org/

http://directory.ic.org/records/?action=view&page=view&record_id=2523

grysmn
01-31-2008, 12:00
The twelve tribes is the closest that America comes to the FFL. (French Foreign Legion), it is for people who want a new structured life and/or need structure in their lives, recovering substance abusers, ex convicts to name a few. When you join you will be given a new name and identity. Parole officers and drug counselors consider the Tribes a good place for their "clients". And it is a good place, tribal members are watched day and night and there are few relaspses.
A majority of the members are male. A good portion of the women raised in the community leave. To prevent this woman exodus, the tribes are considering nuptials for children under ten years of age. The women are watched closely ("to keep them virgins" even the non-virgin women are watched closely)and are told when they are being "over familiar" with either, tribal members or non tribal members of the opposite sex. Flirting with the opposite sex is not allowed. You will see men giving men back rubs and, giving each other very affectionate hugs while in close physical proximity and you will see women snuggled close to each other while sitting. when a man and women have an attraction to each other, they can ask permission to the shepherds to go on a "waiting period" this allows the couple to hold hands and to talk alone with each other with out a third person present overhearing their conversation. Very affectionate hugs and sitting snuggled in close proximity is not allowed at this stage.
There is no transparency in the organization. Most of the decisions are made by the Sheppard's in private meetings. This contrasts with examples in the scriptures where all business is discussed at the town gate. There are approximately five thousand members in many countries. France, Germany, Spain, Brazil, and Argentina, Canada and the United States are the locations of the tribes taken from the Hebrew Scriptures. There are not any tribes left for Asia and Africa. People of African descent are referred to as Ha mites, descendants of Ham inheriting the curse of Ham.
The twelve tribes is composed of approximately fifty communities. These communities vary in size. There are many industries run by the tribes Cafes, Outfitters, Bakeries, Soap manufacturing, Mate distributing, construction companies and farms, to name a few of the major enterprises. This wealth is invested into real estate and enterprises. In spite of this wealth their homes often run out of heating oil. The everyday meals are extremely spartan. The households are alloted one dollar per person per meal. Note the Shepard's who travel quite often are given a generous meal allowance, You won't find them eating sack lunches.
Borrowed property is treated disrespectfully; They claim to hold all in common. The reality is that private property is allowed, New members are kept busy and their private property sits idle. The Older members can Borrow this property at will and return it at their leisure. Cars are often returned with dents and other damage, you can say good bye to your cell phone, laptop camera etc. The Shepard's property is always in use so don't even try to borrow it.
Those familiar with Christianity know of the Lords Prayer or The Model Prayer" , The prayer recited by Jesus when asked what to pray for. You Often Hear of the Tribes asking for the "wealth of the Nations", They often ask for farms, Houses and new millionaire members. Ex-members often have a curse put on them during the prayers, "give them no rest till they return". This contrasts with the biblical scripture's that say forced worship is unacceptable and an abomination. When Going into the "Breaking of Bread", Members are told to focus on Judas, the betrayer of Christ.
You won't see the children around because the children's discipline while legal will be distasteful. A non-member would not understand. Non-members who aid the tribes are referred to as "Servants".
All in all the rank and file, are fine people and many will receive their just reward. As for the leaders some of them are awesome, and inversely to the rank and file many are receiving their reward on earth. The quote "Absolute, power corrupts absolutely", sums almost all of the leaders up quite nicely. :-? David Derush is fairly high in the tribal organization and is also an apologist for the tribes, His insights receive priority within the organization. David will attack me but won't deny the truth of this posting.

warraghiyagey
01-31-2008, 12:05
Just wondering how you are so familiar with the 12 Tribes behind the scenes life?? This isn't a challenge to what you've said, just want to gauge it for accuracy.

grysmn
01-31-2008, 12:06
The twelve tribes is the closest that America comes to the FFL. (French Foreign Legion), it is for people who want a new structured life and/or need structure in their lives, recovering substance abusers, ex convicts to name a few. When you join you will be given a new name and identity. Parole officers and drug counselors consider the Tribes a good place for their "clients". And it is a good place, tribal members are watched day and night and there are few relaspses.
A majority of the members are male. A good portion of the women raised in the community leave. To prevent this woman exodus, the tribes are considering pre-nuptials for children under ten years of age. The women are watched closely ("to keep them virgins" even the non-virgin women are watched closely)and are told when they are being "over familiar" with either, tribal members or non tribal members of the opposite sex. Flirting with the opposite sex is not allowed. You will see men giving men back rubs and, giving each other very affectionate hugs while in close physical proximity and you will see women snuggled close to each other while sitting. when a man and women have an attraction to each other, they can ask permission to the shepherds to go on a "waiting period" this allows the couple to hold hands and to talk alone with each other with out a third person present overhearing their conversation. Very affectionate hugs and sitting snuggled in close proximity is not allowed at this stage.
There is no transparency in the organization. Most of the decisions are made by the Sheppard's in private meetings. This contrasts with examples in the scriptures where all business is discussed at the town gate. There are approximately five thousand members in many countries. France, Germany, Spain, Brazil, and Argentina, Canada and the United States are the locations of the tribes taken from the Hebrew Scriptures. There are not any tribes left for Asia and Africa. People of African descent are referred to as Ha mites, descendants of Ham inheriting the curse of Ham.
The twelve tribes is composed of approximately fifty communities. These communities vary in size. There are many industries run by the tribes Cafes, Outfitters, Bakeries, Soap manufacturing, Mate distributing, construction companies and farms, to name a few of the major enterprises. This wealth is invested into real estate and enterprises. In spite of this wealth their homes often run out of heating oil. The everyday meals are extremely spartan. The households are alloted one dollar per person per meal. Note the Shepard's who travel quite often are given a generous meal allowance, You won't find them eating sack lunches.
Borrowed property is treated disrespectfully; They claim to hold all in common. The reality is that private property is allowed, New members are kept busy and their private property sits idle. The Older members can Borrow this property at will and return it at their leisure. Cars are often returned with dents and other damage, you can say good bye to your cell phone, laptop camera etc. The Shepard's property is always in use so don't even try to borrow it.
Those familiar with Christianity know of the Lords Prayer or The Model Prayer" , The prayer recited by Jesus when asked what to pray for. You Often Hear of the Tribes asking for the "wealth of the Nations", They often ask for farms, Houses and new millionaire members. Ex-members often have a curse put on them during the prayers, "give them no rest till they return". This contrasts with the biblical scripture's that say forced worship is unacceptable and an abomination. When Going into the "Breaking of Bread", Members are told to focus on Judas, the betrayer of Christ.
You won't see the children around because the children's discipline while legal will be distasteful. A non-member would not understand. Non-members who aid the tribes are referred to as "Servants".
All in all the rank and file, are fine people and many will receive their just reward. As for the leaders some of them are awesome, and inversely to the rank and file many are receiving their reward on earth. The quote "Absolute, power corrupts absolutely", sums almost all of the leaders up quite nicely. :-? David Derush is fairly high in the tribal organization and is also an apologist for the tribes, His insights receive priority within the organization. David will attack me but won't deny the truth of this posting.

Rockhound
01-31-2008, 12:08
Greenmtnboy,

If you lost a good friend of 12-years due to the twelve tribes you might feel different. The people are polite, pleasant as you said but they will also sick you in the back if you don't become part of their belief.

It is a cult.

Wolf
friends are people, not possessions

warraghiyagey
01-31-2008, 12:08
Hmmmm. . .:-?

Rockhound
01-31-2008, 12:33
quotes by his holiness the Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso. "Religions must serve humanity, not the other way around." "It is important to use money properly to help others: otherwise you will still want more and feel poor." Sometimes religion becomes yet another source for more division and even open conflict. Because of that situation, I feel the different religious traditions have a great responsibility to provide peace of mind and a sense of brotherhood and sisterhood among humanity."

Christopher Robin
01-31-2008, 13:03
Could some one give me the hostel's address, phone#, & directions please.
Aodrey

Lone Wolf
01-31-2008, 13:09
802-775-9800 http://www.twelvetribes.com/whereweare/us/rutland.html

Wolf - 23000
01-31-2008, 13:26
friends are people, not possessions

I agree, friends are not possessions and no one should tell others who they can be friends with and who they can not talk too.

Wolf

bfitz
01-31-2008, 13:42
friends are people, not possessions

Would you say that if he lost his friend to drug addiction or something like that? Because it's really the same thing.

partinj
01-31-2008, 14:04
I do belive in GOD and i have read the bible cover to cover and i can tell you no where in the bible will it say a man and woman can't not be friends. This is something that is made up by places like the 12-Tribes they need to read the whole bible so they will know better.

warraghiyagey
01-31-2008, 14:10
I do belive in GOD and i have read the bible cover to cover and i can tell you no where in the bible will it say a man and woman can't not be friends. This is something that is made up by places like the 12-Tribes they need to read the whole bible so they will know better.
This is a hostel forum, not hostile. My understanding is that the 12 Tribes subscribe mostly to the old testament which is partly made up of the Torah and as such has a more rigid bent to it than the new testament.

Lone Wolf
01-31-2008, 14:12
they beat kids

RITBlake
01-31-2008, 14:16
this whole thing is a total non-issue.

If you don't want to stay at the twelve tribes, then DON'T STAY THERE. There are other places to crash in Rutland. It's not like they are walking up and down the trail trying to convince people to stay there.

partinj
01-31-2008, 14:16
we no longer go by the old testament not since god send his son to die for us and was not getting hostile just state the facts

DavidNH
01-31-2008, 14:27
I have seen this thread and topic beaten to death over the last year and then stomped on some more.

What more could there possibly be to say?

I'll just say.. I have never stayed there. But I find the folks to be really nice. Hey they ran the LT festival in Rutland, VT and did a fine job of it.

So give it a rest guys. 12 Tribes has been nice to hikers. For those who don't care for them..just don't stay with them.

David

Dogwood
01-31-2008, 14:30
Let's be level headed adults! Saying that Twelve Tribes is this or that or whether or not U want to join them is a completely different matter than just staying at a hiker hostel in downtown Rutland, VT, which I determined it was going to be for me when I stayed there for 3 days on my 06 AT thru-hike and for 2 days on my 07 Long Trl. thru-hike. The strong opinions voiced in this thread simply confirms that different people have different beliefs. Is that a "BAD" thing? Can we understand and accept that people have different beliefs without necessarily having to conform to another's beliefs? No one at no time tried to force me or "diabolically coax me" into joining or believing as they did. I found them to be extremely accommodating and friendly to me as well as every other hiker that I witnessed staying there; of course, they do this within the structure of their society. Do they consider themselves as an outreach to the hiking community? I'm sure they do. Will someone tell U what they believe if U lend them an ear? I'm sure they will. Be personally aware and responsible for the decisions U make and the environment U place yourself in and most people are not going to find a problem with stayng at Twelve Tribes.!!!

Lone Wolf
01-31-2008, 14:43
http://www.nasw.org/users/nbazilchuk/Articles/islandpond.htm

rafe
01-31-2008, 14:50
we no longer go by the old testament not since god send his son to die for us and was not getting hostile just state the facts

you use "facts" and scripture in the same sentence. funny.

RITBlake
01-31-2008, 14:53
you use "facts" and scripture in the same sentence. funny.

haha owned

weary
01-31-2008, 16:10
we no longer go by the old testament not since god sen...(t) his son to die for us. ....
I've always found that a puzzle, haven't you? Why did an all powerful God send his "only begotten son" to be tortured and killed on the cross when surely he could have used less cruel ways of deciding who shall go to heaven and escape an eternity of flames.

Weary

Rockhound
01-31-2008, 16:27
Would you say that if he lost his friend to drug addiction or something like that? Because it's really the same thing.
not really. has your friend passed away ? If you were to speak to him now, would he tell you he's happy? are you a hiker? perhaps you should stop in & visit your friend sometime & resolve these issues.

bfitz
01-31-2008, 16:34
I've always found that a puzzle, haven't you? Why did an all powerful God send his "only begotten son" to be tortured and killed on the cross when surely he could have used less cruel ways of deciding who shall go to heaven and escape an eternity of flames.

Weary
Crucifixion is less cruel than an eternity of flames.

Rockhound
01-31-2008, 17:04
While were on the subject of hostels, what is everyones favorite hostel / least favorite? Why?

rafe
01-31-2008, 17:08
I've always found that a puzzle, haven't you?

no less puzzling than a religion that would use as its principal icon a ghastly form of capital punishment... :rolleyes:

rafe
01-31-2008, 17:10
While were on the subject of hostels, what is everyones favorite hostel / least favorite? Why?

FreeState Hiker Hostel in Maryland. New in 2007, and beautiful. Run by an '06 thru-hiker and his wife. Don't miss it!

Lone Wolf
01-31-2008, 17:13
While were on the subject of hostels, what is everyones favorite hostel

any hostel that allows you to tent is a good one. Shaw's was my favorite

bfitz
01-31-2008, 17:24
While were on the subject of hostels, what is everyones favorite hostel / least favorite? Why?Obviously I haven't stayed at every place and a few weren't that great, I had an experience with the 12 tribes place and it was strange, but they weren't exactly jerks or anything.

I have very fond memories of the following places, especially the ones in bold print.

Walasi-Yi, Haven's Budget Inn, Standing Indian Campground, Hike Inn, Standing Bear Farm, Miss Janet's, Kincora, Doyle Hotel, Graymoor Spiritual Life Center, Glencliff Hiker's Welcome, Andover Road House, the little BnB in Caratunk, and Shaw's, off the top of my head.

warraghiyagey
01-31-2008, 17:32
While were on the subject of hostels, what is everyones favorite hostel / least favorite? Why?
Shaw's :):)

Least favorite - The Barn , Gorham - stayed less than 5 minutes.

grysmn
01-31-2008, 21:53
The info on the twelve tribes was posted so that people who are interested in their way of life can ask intelligent questions. This way of life is the only way that some people can cope with their problems. The twelve tribes activly try to recruit people hiking on the trail. They serve breakfest at trail days, help with the Long Trail Festival, Operate a hostel in Rutland and plan to open another Hostel close to the blackburn center, which is close to thier Hillsdale community. If you have been receptive to their message two of them will hike out to meet you on the AT. If you are seriously considering their way of life read my previous posting and ask for the lititure not shown to prospective members without supervision "The Fundimental Teachings" and "The Communicater". Ask to observe their child discipline which is completely legal. Every one has a right to know exactly what they are joining before they commit their time and property to a cause.

Voice
03-07-2008, 03:06
:eek: If you want to know how the truth about the Twelve Tribes from someone who has had 30 years of experience visit the following site:

Yoneq and the Twelve Tribes (http://yattt.blogspot.com/)

The following article gives some insight into the deceptive recruiting practices

Truth in Advertising (http://yattt.blogspot.com/2008/01/do-you-want-some-hips-and-thighs-with.html)

The following article gives more details on the other businesses the TT has that produce millions of dollars each year off of slave labor of the members and their children

The Twelve Tribes Money Machine (http://yattt.blogspot.com/2008/02/twelve-tribes-money-machine.html)

ridgewalker777
04-22-2008, 19:21
Why the huge expansion of this group? Why are there few non-hierarchical Christian fellowship farms out there? Where do you go if you have no addictions, want to serve the Lord and healthy fellowship, without having to give up your life savings to the leaders? It shouldn't be that hard to set up voluntary, quality fellowship groups like existed in the 1800's.

greenmtnboy
05-09-2008, 14:26
They have flourished for obvious reasons. There are a lot of intentional communities in the US--but it takes a lot of perseverance and structure to keep them together...:sun

sofaking
05-09-2008, 14:49
please, more freak show stories...

generoll
05-09-2008, 16:13
here's a for what it's worth.

http://chattanoogan.com/articles/article_127636.asp

whtmthiker
12-08-2008, 15:34
Wow- this is very interesting. My brother is actually part of this "cult". And- yes, I do believe it's a cult but I also believe any form of religion is a cult. Another story- anyways, I've visited him in other places and the people are extremely nice and though believe you'd be better off joining them, do not brainwash you to do so- I do believe there's "brainwashing" once you're in but the people can choose to leave whenver they want- my brother actually left for a couple of months but couldn't handle the real world so came back to it. This place is purely a business. They own restaurants, sell soaps, cream, candles, furniture and other stuff. The main people are making millions of dollars and the people in it believe the money goes right back to the community. It is communistic but I believe my brother is better off in there- it's his choice. It is also very sexist since it believes the bible exactly. Not for everyone but everyone I have met in it, are very happy and can leave. I do not agree with it but I also do not agree with several other religions that are harmless to the people so to each it's own. My 2 cents. I don't usually post on here because I feel there are so many people on here that have nothing better to do that critize everything but since I have a little bit of knowledge on this- wanted to share my thoughts.

Chaco Taco
12-08-2008, 16:46
favorite hostels/ hotels/ campgrounds
1. Standing Bear
2. Shaw's
3. Haven's Budget Inn
4. White Birches
5. Green Mountain House
6. Free State Hiker Hostel
7. The Doyle
8. Kincora
9. Cloud 9
10. Hiker Inn (Damascus)

Least Favorite
1. Uncle Johnny's
2. The Barn
3. Days Inn Front Royal

Dont have many I didnt like. The one's I didnt like were because of price and conditions. Uncle Johnny's was for personal reasons.
Standing Bear holds a special place in my heart.

Chaco Taco
12-08-2008, 16:49
I will have to say that the 12 tribes place in Rutland is awesome. i left them out of my top 10 because of no shuttling and its just really tight there when its busy. Also the whole man woman thing. I undrestand and respect their wishes about the dormitory thing. They were really good to us and I will always have nothing but great things to say about them.

Lybarger
12-31-2008, 17:25
While were on the subject of hostels, what is everyones favorite hostel / least favorite? Why?

Seems most good hostels are here today gone tomorrow. The good ones that stick around cater to more than just hikers. Shaws has winter sports customers, same with WHL, Ironmasters has cyclists, Dutch Haus & Mountain Harbour (attached B&B), Cloud 9 (RVer's), NOC (rafters), etc.

Point is.....serving hikers cannot be a moneymaking proposition. And yet, we read about too many hikers who feel they get ripped off by service providers.

If you want to do a thruhike on the cheap, plan to camp in the woods.

Worldwide
01-01-2009, 15:27
1. Standing Bear
2. Kincora ( where else can you hear about fwozen hikers on top of woan mountain that needed wescue after a hard days twail work)
3. Mountain Crossings ( for the mix of friends and atmosphere)

KG4FAM
01-01-2009, 15:46
Favorites in no particular order-
1 Kincora
2 Blueberry Patch
3 Sunnybank Inn
4 Mountain Harbour
5 Twelve Tribes
6 White Birches

-Haven's budget inn is nice but not a hostel.
-Woodstock Station and Inn had an insane hiker discount (still not cheap, $55) and was awsome. Eggs Benedict with filet mignon for breakfast included in room price.
-Stowell Galleries was nice just because of talking with the owner who is the former mayor and architect for the NPS.

Dumps-
1 Barn

Lone Wolf
01-01-2009, 15:47
Sunnybank Inn is not a hostel

MOWGLI
01-01-2009, 15:50
Sunnybank Inn is not a hostel
It is run in a manner similar to one - for hikers. But yes, it is in fact a B&B.

Lone Wolf
01-01-2009, 15:54
it's not a b&b. breakfast is extra. it's nothing like a hostel. he just gives reduced rates to hikers

Sly
01-01-2009, 17:01
Technically, Sunnybank (Elmer's) is called an Inn and Retreat.

nabashalam
01-04-2010, 21:15
Twelve Tribes is a destructive high control fundamentalist cult and NO you cannot leave after you have been baptized by then because of the bars and locks of fear and guilt that they have instilled/injected into your minds and spirits! You are told, after you give them your all...mind body and spirit, that if you leave you will suffer eternal damnation and die an early age from the plagues and curses of the world because you have turned your back on God and are no longer part of "Hid Body" and are no longer protected by him.

So don't feed me that crap that they fed you that YOU CAN LEAVE ANY TIME YOU WANT!!!!

I left 5 years ago and am now the editor for the largest and most respected anti-cult website in the world. Imagine that. And actually it was me, "unlawfully" using the computer without permission and finding that website while I was in the cult that finally helped me escape that prison of total control.

So go ahead, eat the good food, enjoy the accommodations but by no means "drink the kool-aide".

I need to bring this post back to the top if you care to do any research.

Also if you care to communicate with me I have been helping people for 5 years now on the inner workings of this "Cute little Amish like" intentional community... nabashalam@yahoo.com

bringing up to the top boss!

Voice The Truth About the Twelve Tribes
:eek: If you want to know how the truth about the Twelve Tribes from someone who has had 30 years of experience visit the following site:

Yoneq and the Twelve Tribes (http://yattt.blogspot.com/)

The following article gives some insight into the deceptive recruiting practices

Truth in Advertising (http://yattt.blogspot.com/2008/01/do-you-want-some-hips-and-thighs-with.html)

The following article gives more details on the other businesses the TT has that produce millions of dollars each year off of slave labor of the members and their children

The Twelve Tribes Money Machine (http://yattt.blogspot.com/2008/02/twelve-tribes-money-machine.html)

Lone Wolf
01-04-2010, 21:43
Twelve Tribes is a destructive high control fundamentalist cult and NO you cannot leave after you have been baptized by then because of the bars and locks of fear and guilt that they have instilled/injected into your minds and spirits! You are told, after you give them your all...mind body and spirit, that if you leave you will suffer eternal damnation and die an early age from the plagues and curses of the world because you have turned your back on God and are no longer part of "Hid Body" and are no longer protected by him.

So don't feed me that crap that they fed you that YOU CAN LEAVE ANY TIME YOU WANT!!!!

I left 5 years ago and am now the editor for the largest and most respected anti-cult website in the world. Imagine that. And actually it was me, "unlawfully" using the computer without permission and finding that website while I was in the cult that finally helped me escape that prison of total control.

So go ahead, eat the good food, enjoy the accommodations but by no means "drink the kool-aide".

I need to bring this post back to the top if you care to do any research.

Also if you care to communicate with me I have been helping people for 5 years now on the inner workings of this "Cute little Amish like" intentional community... nabashalam@yahoo.com

bringing up to the top boss!

Voice The Truth About the Twelve Tribes
:eek: If you want to know how the truth about the Twelve Tribes from someone who has had 30 years of experience visit the following site:

Yoneq and the Twelve Tribes (http://yattt.blogspot.com/)

The following article gives some insight into the deceptive recruiting practices

Truth in Advertising (http://yattt.blogspot.com/2008/01/do-you-want-some-hips-and-thighs-with.html)

The following article gives more details on the other businesses the TT has that produce millions of dollars each year off of slave labor of the members and their children

The Twelve Tribes Money Machine (http://yattt.blogspot.com/2008/02/twelve-tribes-money-machine.html)

i believe you

nabashalam
01-04-2010, 21:44
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Tribes_%28New_religious_movement%29


http://www.iottc.blogspot.com/


http://www.twelvetribes-ex.com/


and if you interested in there theology and brainwashing teachings...

http://www.twelvetribesteachings.com/ :eek:

nabashalam
01-04-2010, 21:47
Thanks for the witness Lone Wolf... It is a very insidious mechanism but there are some wonderful loving yet lost souls there..

Actually everyone of them is a wonderful soul but are under a strong and terrible delusion, ... A God spell if you will but it is a different spell than the true Son of God casted...

Johnny Thunder
01-04-2010, 21:47
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Tribes_%28New_religious_movement%29


http://www.iottc.blogspot.com/


http://www.twelvetribes-ex.com/


and if you interested in there theology and brainwashing teachings...

http://www.twelvetribesteachings.com/ :eek:


So, uhhh, don't drink the cool aid. We get it. Move along.

Tinker
01-05-2010, 00:39
Thanks for the witness Lone Wolf... It is a very insidious mechanism but there are some wonderful loving yet lost souls there..

Actually everyone of them is a wonderful soul but are under a strong and terrible delusion, ... A God spell if you will but it is a different spell than the true Son of God casted...
I met them at the ALDHA Gathering in 2005. They kept trying to prove to me that they had something so much better than any church outside of theirs could have, practically asking me to leave mine to join them. No thanks, I'd just left a cult (funny how they aren't cults when you're in them :-?).
The family of God is bigger than one church, group or denomination. In the end we will all be judged individually. It's important to think, question, and even doubt at times.

Just a Hiker
01-05-2010, 00:50
Yeah.....and the Organic Coffee in their restaurant tastes like dirt.....:p

Wolf - 23000
01-05-2010, 01:06
That right. I have a nice pad to stay where you can worship GOD as I see fit and live in a nice bulk house style place. You can crash here as long as you like. The only thing I ask for in exchange is ALL YOUR POSSESSIONS, money and free will. Don't worry about a outside news on TV/radio. I will tell you any information as I see fit to help shape your mind.

I will of course ask that you help out to make me money and work for free. I will in return give you food and water to drink. Don't worry about friends or what they think outside the community. If they don't join, you will be told to break-off any relationship you may have with this person.

Of course I'm not serious but members of the 12-tribes are. Everything I asked for here in jest the 12 tribes ask of their members FOR REAL. If you ever feel you would like to stay over, rest assure they are always looking for new recruit.

Wolf

Jeff
01-05-2010, 09:37
I have discussed Twelve Tribes with 100's of hikers and never got a negative comment.

Johnny Thunder
01-05-2010, 09:40
Yeah, it's easy to be an armchair hater.

warraghiyagey
01-05-2010, 09:56
http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/Kool-AidMan.jpg

traildust
01-05-2010, 11:33
So, uhhh, don't drink the cool aid. We get it. Move along.


ALERT !!! Johnny Thunder, this link http://www.twelvetribesteachings.com/ :eek: has a virus. Don't download it!!!!

Jack Tarlin
01-05-2010, 16:17
Wow. I'm reallly tempted to stay out of this one, but feel compelled to make several brief comments:

*I have met and talked with dozens of folks who were guests at the 12 Tribes
hostel in Rutland and they had a wonderful stay. There were NO reports of
recruitment, enticement, etc. It was obvious to guests that they were
in a religious community and folks who expressed an interest in this, i.e.
asked questions, etc., well these folks got a fuller "tour" and ended up hear-
ing more about the place and the folks who elected to live there. But as to
recruitment of hikers or guests? No, I've heard nothing about this, never.

*That being said, I have read a good deal and have heard a good deal about
12 Tribes, and not everything I've heard or read has been positive.

*I think that the current A.T. Guidebooks should make a better point about
mentioning who actually runs this establishment so their is no doubt about
it (some of the 2010 Guidebooks are more informative than others), and I
also think that future hikers should look into the 12 Tribes and get better
informed about these folks before deciding whether or not this is a place
they want to stay or to encourage other folks to visit.

Knowledge is strength. I urge people to get better informed, and to try and keep an open mind while doing so.

Jack Tarlin
01-05-2010, 16:49
Just out of curiousity, I went back and read some older posts on this thread (this dialogue has been goin on awhile).

An earlier poster, DavidNH mentioned that the 12 Tribes "ran" the annual Long Trail Festival in Rutland, which in a few short years has turned into a wonderful event.

This is absolutely, categorically false. There are any numebr of folks responsible for this great weekend, and while the 12T has participated; sold food; helped out with many things, etc., it would be a grave mistake for anyone to think they actually ran the festival or were responsible for its creation or continuance.

The annual Trail festival in Rutland every August is NOT a 12 Tribes event.

Johnny Thunder
01-05-2010, 16:52
Yes, Jack. Kesher and his father built the big stage before the first event. They did help a lot with the logistics the first year but no more than providing the stage and some help to Wayne.

They built the big stage, yes....but the small stage...that stage was built by Gelatin Offramp.

warraghiyagey
01-05-2010, 16:55
Knowledge is strength. I urge people to get better informed, and to try and keep an open mind while doing so.
Agreed. . . I'm one of thousands that stayed at 12 Tribes. . . I don't agree with much of their belief set. . . especially the gender segregation/women-as-equals issues, but they are helpful to hikers and are generally good folk that have their own ways, none of which I or anybody need subscribe to.
They don't push their ways on anyone. . . . who doesn't open themselves to it. . . a very pleasant stop in my experience. . .
Me and a buddy did the tile work in the men's showers. . . .:)

bfitz
01-06-2010, 18:48
Look, if you stay at a hostel run by religious folks you should understand what it is. Whats the difference between graymoor friary and twelve tribes? Both religious organizations have a documented history of abusing children and other atrocities...one goping much farther back, I'll grant you, but a religion is a religion. They don't run hostels for the for the pure sweet pleasure of it, they want to save souls, or recruit, or whatever you want to call it, some subtly (greymoor, twelve tribes, the place in damascus) some more overtly (Blueberry patch, etc....), but if you're not into saying grace when your host does, or disapprove some aspect of their religion, or feel you are weak minded and vulnerable to some hippie cult's recruitment tactics and delicious yerba mate bars then stay away from such places. It's kind of pointless to criticize what other people do. I'm sure the twelve tribes in general has a lot of problems, but I doubt the hippies in at the Rutland chapter or whtaever are beating their kids. People gotta right to be and to raise their kids to be stupid. That's as American a right as gets.

warraghiyagey
01-06-2010, 18:51
. People gotta right to be and to raise their kids to be stupid. That's as American a right as gets.

Well said. . . .

Jack Tarlin
01-06-2010, 19:38
Wow.

Don't want this conversation to do downhill but I have to say that Bfitz's comments about Greymoor were pretty reprehensible.

I have enjoyed their hospitality more times than I can remember, and when Bfitz says they don't do this for the pure pleasure and goodness of it, but insted, they do this out of ulterior and perhaps sinister hidden motives......well, sorry.

This is a statement of stupendous ignorance, as well as being categorically false and disgusting.

warraghiyagey
01-06-2010, 19:40
So you're saying you disagree. . . .?

Johnny Thunder
01-06-2010, 19:43
What? No love for the Gelatin Offramp?

bfitz
01-06-2010, 19:47
Wow.

Don't want this conversation to do downhill but I have to say that Bfitz's comments about Greymoor were pretty reprehensible.

I have enjoyed their hospitality more times than I can remember, and when Bfitz says they don't do this for the pure pleasure and goodness of it, but insted, they do this out of ulterior and perhaps sinister hidden motives......well, sorry.

This is a statement of stupendous ignorance, as well as being categorically false and disgusting.Did I say ulterior or sinister? No, the friars and all True Believers act out of the purest and sincerest of motives. That is in some peoples' estimation what makes them so insidiously dangerous to the superstiotiops and weak minded. Believe me, the last terrorist who blew himself to bits in the name of Allah truely believed he was doing what was best for his...let's call them victims, though I'm sure he didn't see it that way.

bfitz
01-06-2010, 19:47
And by superstiotiops I mean superstitious.

warraghiyagey
01-06-2010, 19:51
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-eatdrink033.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Johnny Thunder
01-06-2010, 19:55
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-eatdrink033.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

TO had something to say about that.

warraghiyagey
01-06-2010, 20:04
TO had something to say about that.
Then he went to Buffalo and had nobody to listen to him. . . . :D

ridgewalker777
01-06-2010, 20:46
If you go to FACTNET--http://www.factnet.org/--you can find just about any "ism" or religion or political group being talked about. And while I would agree with the "cult" characterization about a lot of groups, some are a little far-fetched. There should be room there to identify your latest experience with an unsavory church or group a cult and see if anyone else can chime in with to join the thread....:banana

Chaco Taco
01-06-2010, 21:50
The people at the Back Home Again Cafe were great to us. Didnt try to push their beliefs on us at all. We had a great time and met some cool people. Its in a perfect spot ion town and they cater to hikers. The food was awesome and all we had to do was chip in at night to earn our keep. Maybe other 12 tribes PLaces are different but I have nothing but good things to say about the crew in Rutland

Jack Tarlin
01-07-2010, 15:02
I have met dozens and dozens of hikers whose reports and comments on the hostel in Rutland and their stay there would exactly duplicate what Chaco just said.

bfitz
01-07-2010, 15:03
The people at the Back Home Again Cafe were great to us. Didnt try to push their beliefs on us at all. We had a great time and met some cool people. Its in a perfect spot ion town and they cater to hikers. The food was awesome and all we had to do was chip in at night to earn our keep. Maybe other 12 tribes PLaces are different but I have nothing but good things to say about the crew in RutlandExactly my point....many soul savers realize that if you are too pushy you scare off the prospective recruits. Most have discovered that pie is a better lure than proselytization. Step one is just be nice. My experience with the tribes was a bit stranger because the hostel hadn't opened yet, and I thought it was a vegetarian restaurant. They invited us to stay and all was well until we came back to bunk down for the night and they announced they'd be taking all the females in our group to another location some two miles away, but the males would stay in town next to the restaurant. Well, we had never met these folks and thought all that was a little creepy. Then they explained "Oh, we don't mean any harm, our religion simply forbids you to sleep with your girlfriend so she'll have to come with us...", they were pretty insistent. We declined and went to the motel. Later some folks from town explained what they were all about and we didn't feel the need to call the police. Then I realized the tribes were what we used to call yashuas in the parking lot at dead shows...they had a big hippy school bus and would recruit lost souls coming down off of bad trips in the lot. I remembered them well and once I made the connection recognized the mesmerized vacant stare and the pony tails. Again, not saying tribers or catholics or muslims or baptists are bad people. Just the opposite, they are good folks who believe that you are going to hell and will do what they can to save you from it. Charlemagne believed he was saving souls when he poured molten lead into the bodily orifices of pagans. I mean hey, whats a few minutes of agony on earth compared to eternity in the frying pan? I'd rather be converted by tribers than medieval christians thats fer sure. Mostly because of the yerba mate bars and the lack of spanish inquisitors.

Yahtzee
01-07-2010, 15:17
Inn at the Long Trail. They woo you with good beer, great ambience and a killer staff, then BAM! they got you hooked and next thing you know you are camping across the street and shopping at the minimart down the road. It's a death grip cult, I tells ya, but a more enjoyable sounding one than this Rutland hostel everyone is talking so much about.

bfitz
01-07-2010, 15:24
Inn at the Long Trail. They woo you with good beer, great ambience and a killer staff, then BAM! they got you hooked and next thing you know you are camping across the street and shopping at the minimart down the road. It's a death grip cult, I tells ya, but a more enjoyable sounding one than this Rutland hostel everyone is talking so much about.Well, the AT is rife with cults. I'm a member of the one True Religion. Miss Janets Unholy Order Of Heavenly Pancakes And The Devil's Sausage Gravy, Erwin chapter. Really, the self flagellation is a lot more enjoyable when done with ramen noodles at midnight on beauty spot.

Rockhound
01-07-2010, 15:26
Pick any theistic religion. They are all people that felt the need to put their faith in something that can not be proven. The reasons are numerous. They were indoctrinated at an early age and have never bothered to question what they have been taught, they like the others members of the church and the social aspect, there was a void in their life and religion filled it, they were going through a crisis and someone picked a good time to recruit them while they were vulnerable, they are politicians and know if they wish to get elected they must appear as "good Christians" etc.... My question is, what is so wrong with saying "I do not know"? People enjoy using computers without knowing how they work, people who know nothing about auto repair can still enjoy driving a car and people can still have full, happy lives without having to know the answer to life, the universe and everything. As far as 12 tribes is concerned the people there were great, treated everyone with respect and kindness and didn't push their beliefs on anyone which is a lot more than I can say for many WBers

bfitz
01-07-2010, 15:39
Pick any theistic religion. They are all people that felt the need to put their faith in something that can not be proven. The reasons are numerous. They were indoctrinated at an early age and have never bothered to question what they have been taught, they like the others members of the church and the social aspect, there was a void in their life and religion filled it, they were going through a crisis and someone picked a good time to recruit them while they were vulnerable, they are politicians and know if they wish to get elected they must appear as "good Christians" etc.... My question is, what is so wrong with saying "I do not know"? People enjoy using computers without knowing how they work, people who know nothing about auto repair can still enjoy driving a car and people can still have full, happy lives without having to know the answer to life, the universe and everything. As far as 12 tribes is concerned the people there were great, treated everyone with respect and kindness and didn't push their beliefs on anyone which is a lot more than I can say for many WBersDoesn't even have to be a religion. Lot's of folks fill the void in their minds with far worse things, like television news channels, smoking crack, going on Phish tour, World of Warcraft, becoming a unitarian, etc. etc... Having a big hole in your brain is hard to deal with...I understand how people end up in these places. Really, I do. Oh, by the way...the answer is parallell universes bumping uglies in the eleventh dimension. Who needs god for that? jeez. It's called spring theory people. All this craziness will be over come april. When the showres soote.

Cabin Fever
01-07-2010, 15:40
They are all people that felt the need to put their faith in something that can not be proven. ...there was a void in their life and religion filled it, they were going through a crisis and someone picked a good time to recruit them while they were vulnerable...

My faith is proven everytime I step on the Trail. The outdoors is where I feel closest to the Creator.

Point #2 - Terribly off base.

bfitz
01-07-2010, 15:50
My faith is proven everytime I step on the Trail. The outdoors is where I feel closest to the Creator.

Point #2 - Terribly off base.Dunno about your point about point number two, but I do agree...hard to stand on top of big bald and gaze at the sunset and not feel the pull of a reality far deeper than what we are able to comprehend. I don't like the word god because it implies some despot craving your adoration and demanding your thoughtless obedience. Any group that raises their children to question everything and seek only the truth without prejudice is ok with me. Any group that wants to forbid your children to read certain books or study certain topics for fear that it will damage their faith isn't after truth, they're after mind control, that's all I'm sayin.

Rockhound
01-07-2010, 17:12
My faith is proven everytime I step on the Trail. The outdoors is where I feel closest to the Creator.

Point #2 - Terribly off base.
The existence of God is purely faith based, meaning there is no physical proof to provide empirical evidence of the existence of a supreme being. To say your faith is "proven" would result in God disappearing in a puff of logic. Good job Cabin Fever. You just killed God

Wolf - 23000
01-07-2010, 18:52
Wow.
*I have met and talked with dozens of folks who were guests at the 12 Tribes
hostel in Rutland and they had a wonderful stay. There were NO reports of
recruitment, enticement, etc. It was obvious to guests that they were
in a religious community and folks who expressed an interest in this, i.e.
asked questions, etc., well these folks got a fuller "tour" and ended up hear-
ing more about the place and the folks who elected to live there. But as to
recruitment of hikers or guests? No, I've heard nothing about this, never.

*That being said, I have read a good deal and have heard a good deal about
12 Tribes, and not everything I've heard or read has been positive.

*I think that the current A.T. Guidebooks should make a better point about
mentioning who actually runs this establishment so their is no doubt about
it (some of the 2010 Guidebooks are more informative than others), and I
also think that future hikers should look into the 12 Tribes and get better
informed about these folks before deciding whether or not this is a place
they want to stay or to encourage other folks to visit.

Knowledge is strength. I urge people to get better informed, and to try and keep an open mind while doing so.

Jack,

I'm sure many people I'm sure would describe the 12-tribe as really nice people but then again Ted Bundy was describe as a nice guy too. My point is not everyone is going to pick up that the 12-tribes stand for just by meeting them. As you know, the 12 tribes has some serious issues involving everything from being fine for child labor laws, members refusing to pay child support for a child not in their group, etc.

They are not good people and are providing the service not out of the goodness of their heart. They do it to try to get new members will to give up everything they own. It is all about the money.

Wolf

weary
01-07-2010, 19:49
Jack,

I'm sure many people I'm sure would describe the 12-tribe as really nice people but then again Ted Bundy was describe as a nice guy too. My point is not everyone is going to pick up that the 12-tribes stand for just by meeting them. As you know, the 12 tribes has some serious issues involving everything from being fine for child labor laws, members refusing to pay child support for a child not in their group, etc.

They are not good people and are providing the service not out of the goodness of their heart. They do it to try to get new members will to give up everything they own. It is all about the money.

Wolf
That may be true from the top of the cult. But we shouldn't malign the rank and file believers. They get no profits, no money. Just the sense that they are fulfilling the requirements of their faith. That, of course, in a complicated way, is why I don't consciously share in any faith-based beliefs.

But we should not malign believers. It's a human trait, built into our genes. It had obvious usefullness 150,000 years ago, when we were still struggling to survive from the onslught of other creatures who thought of us as prey and food for their babies. Faith that we were special enabled us to emerge from the general pack of animal types.

But this is the 21st century. It's time to move beyond ancient faiths and rely now on what we as humans have learned about the nature of the earth and the universe. I know, even science requires a sense of faith. Do I understand the string theory? No. But I'm willing to keep an open mind. I remember when pompous types proclaimed that only a half dozen people in the world understood Einstein's theory of relativity. Now all intelligent folks who make even a minimal effort can understand.

Weary

Wolf - 23000
01-08-2010, 00:16
That may be true from the top of the cult. But we shouldn't malign the rank and file believers. They get no profits, no money. Just the sense that they are fulfilling the requirements of their faith. That, of course, in a complicated way, is why I don't consciously share in any faith-based beliefs.

But we should not malign believers. It's a human trait, built into our genes. It had obvious usefullness 150,000 years ago, when we were still struggling to survive from the onslught of other creatures who thought of us as prey and food for their babies. Faith that we were special enabled us to emerge from the general pack of animal types.

But this is the 21st century. It's time to move beyond ancient faiths and rely now on what we as humans have learned about the nature of the earth and the universe. I know, even science requires a sense of faith. Do I understand the string theory? No. But I'm willing to keep an open mind. I remember when pompous types proclaimed that only a half dozen people in the world understood Einstein's theory of relativity. Now all intelligent folks who make even a minimal effort can understand.

Weary

Wear,

They are a cult. As for money that you say they don't received. The 12-tribe is worth several billions, that is billions. They didn't make that money from just handing out food to hikers. Even if one hiker returns and join them they will make their money back in either free labor or the DONATION the hiker brings into the community or both.

This is the 21st century of course but they are still living in the past. A time when a woman place was to do "women duties" and never question the man of the house or community. Children place was to do labor need to earn money for the community - they were fine for their pratice.

As for believing in GOD and their belief. I believe in GOD myself, some may believe the same as me others may not. It is not my place to tell anyone what to believe. THEY DO. If they can't convert you to become a member, they will tell their members to break off all contact with you. Any friendship you may believe you have with their members is shallow. They will break it off in a heart beat.

That is who they are and that is what they stand for.

Wolf

Jester2000
01-08-2010, 04:01
James. Do you hike?

Yeah. What's up with that? I noticed that when a thread starts about the Twelve Tribes, not too long after that someone like davidderush or James Case joins whiteblaze, comments exclusively on the Twelve Tribes thread, and then disappears. Is there a Twelve Tribes Official Online Monitor who spends his day googling "Twelve Tribes" all day who then dispatches one of the members who's allowed to use a computer to rebut arguments?


. . . Whats the difference between graymoor friary and twelve tribes? Both religious organizations have a documented history of abusing children and other atrocities...one goping much farther back, I'll grant you, but a religion is a religion. They don't run hostels for the for the pure sweet pleasure of it, they want to save souls, or recruit, or whatever you want to call it, some subtly (greymoor, twelve tribes, the place in damascus) some more overtly (Blueberry patch, etc....) . . .

Actually, in terms of the line "they don't run hostels . . ." you could stop right there in reference to Greymoor, because, you know, they don't run a hostel. And as for the rest of it, I believe you're setting up a bit of a false equivalency. "Abusing children and other atrocities" committed by members of the Catholic faith have definitely occurred. And in many instances, these were either covered up by the Church hierarchy (in the case of child abuse) or officially sanctioned (the Inquisition, for example). But in pretty much all of these cases, the Church later admitted that they had lost their way, that they had strayed from the teachings they were supposed to be following.

And that's the sort of thing that will happen when humans, with all of their failings, are involved.

The issue with the Twelve Tribes is that the negative aspects of the group are official policy, central to the tenets they follow.

I personally am a former Catholic. Totally indoctrinated, still have all of the prayers memorized. And although it's a nice thing that when I left the Church I actually had my own money with which I could find my own way in the world (a luxury not afforded to people who leave TT), the part that was even better was that my friends and family who remained Catholic weren't told by the Church that they had to break all ties with me.

Which is a very lucky thing for all of you who enjoy my Mom's baked goods.

I'm afraid I'm with Wolf -- both of them -- on this one.


I have met dozens and dozens of hikers whose reports and comments on the hostel in Rutland and their stay there would exactly duplicate what Chaco just said.

Yeah. I don't think there are too many people that would make the argument that they aren't nice to hikers. Why wouldn't they be? "Bad service" or "they're mean to hikers" isn't really the argument anyone seems to be making, so I'm not sure why "they were nice to me" seems to be the major rebuttal position.

I guess for many hikers it doesn't matter who's running the hostel, as long as it's cheap and there's a bed, and no one is trying to recruit them with a hard sell. I suppose for me it comes down to whether I want to tacitly approve of something by associating with and giving money or labor to something that I find to be at the very least distasteful, and at worst harmful.

Wolf - 23000
01-08-2010, 07:44
I guess for many hikers it doesn't matter who's running the hostel, as long as it's cheap and there's a bed, and no one is trying to recruit them with a hard sell. I suppose for me it comes down to whether I want to tacitly approve of something by associating with and giving money or labor to something that I find to be at the very least distasteful, and at worst harmful.

Well put Jester2000

Wolf

ShelterLeopard
01-08-2010, 12:25
I don't have time to read all the other posts (I could swear I posted on here before... must've been a similar thread):

When I stayed there, the people were vrey nice, accomodating, and never once mentioned anything that had anything to do with religion or any of their beliefs. I stayed two nights, and worked for stay the first night, paid the second. They gave me a free, delicious breakfast, and offered lunch and dinner as well, the hostel was clean, and the work for stay option was super- all I had to do was help one of the girls sweep out the "dorms" and rinse the showers, and done! (During breakfast, they did play some weird religious music, but that was because they weren't open yet, and I had gotten up early- during they day they play other music)

Conclusion: as a hiker, I think it was a great place to stay. I never once felt uncomfortable, and I was a lone young female. I found them all to be very nice, and interested people. Their lives are their affair, and discussion about their lives and beliefs doesn't quite belong here.

PS- If you go there, get some of their bread- it is amazing and very fresh!

ShelterLeopard
01-08-2010, 12:27
Though I will say, Jester definitely has a very good point about not sponsoring something that you do not agree with. I'd never stay in a hostel run by the KKK, however cold and hungry I was.

weary
01-08-2010, 12:40
They are a cult. As for money that you say they don't received. The 12-tribe is worth several billions, that is billions....

I didn't say the leaders don't get rich. I just said the people that do the daily work of the cult are not in it for the money. They have nothing but their faith, and get nothing but the right to bask in their delusions.

I might stop there to see for myself the work of the cult. I would never stay simply because they are friendly and offer free food and a bunk. I try to spread reason, and not to encourage misguided beliefs and superstition.

Jack Tarlin
01-08-2010, 13:13
Will re-iterate what I said earlier:

People that are truly concerned about this should make a point of looking into the matter, getting better informed, and then making up their own minds about whether or not this is a place they wish to visit.

Wolf - 23000
01-08-2010, 14:05
I didn't say the leaders don't get rich. I just said the people that do the daily work of the cult are not in it for the money. They have nothing but their faith, and get nothing but the right to bask in their delusions.


Wear, Even the daily male worker gets a slice of the pie. When I stayed with the 12-tribes, several of the older male worker had to leave several times a month rotating for "business trips." On the business trips it often require bring in one of the younger male workers so he could learn the ropes. Those younger male workers were your daily worker.

The women have NO say in the matter. How money is spent is consider the Man's job. Her place is not to question the trips or anything the man does. Her place is to do women duties. Even if she wanted to leave, it would be extremely difficult for her because she would be left with the clothes on her back. If a friend outside the community was to give her something of vaule, she had to turn it over to the community. It is a screwed-up system and I would encourage everyone to stay far, far away from them.

Wolf

ShelterLeopard
01-08-2010, 14:12
Hmmm- you may be right wolf. Their bread is still really good though.

ShelterLeopard
01-08-2010, 14:13
Hmmm- you may be right wolf. Their bread is still really good though- but, maybe I will reconsider my views of staying there, regardless of their beliefs and lifestyle.

(Didn't mean to submit this twice, sorry)

Wolf - 23000
01-08-2010, 14:23
Will re-iterate what I said earlier:

People that are truly concerned about this should make a point of looking into the matter, getting better informed, and then making up their own minds about whether or not this is a place they wish to visit.

Jack,

No one is saying anything different but you know as well as I do it is very difficult while on the trail to know where your money is supporting when you stay some place. If I stay at a hotel/motel or eat out, I don't know who is running the place behind the scenes. If it is run by groups like the KKK, Black Panthers, terrorist groups or groups like the 12-tribes which has been found guity of several serious crimes, I don't want anything to do with them and would encourage others to do the same. All some of us are doing is giving out the facts about the what their stay is really supporting.


Wolf

weary
01-08-2010, 19:25
Wear, Even the daily male worker gets a slice of the pie. When I stayed with the 12-tribes, several of the older male worker had to leave several times a month rotating for "business trips." On the business trips it often require bring in one of the younger male workers so he could learn the ropes. Those younger male workers were your daily worker.

The women have NO say in the matter. How money is spent is consider the Man's job. Her place is not to question the trips or anything the man does. Her place is to do women duties. Even if she wanted to leave, it would be extremely difficult for her because she would be left with the clothes on her back. If a friend outside the community was to give her something of vaule, she had to turn it over to the community. It is a screwed-up system and I would encourage everyone to stay far, far away from them.

Wolf
As would I, except for an educational experience in the nature of cults. That is the only reason I would visit, regardless of the quality of female produced bread things. I also can bake a nice loaf of bread. I used to do it daily. I've slacked off. But as my ability to hike these deep global-warning induced snows diminishes, making bread has become an alternative, I'm getting back into the bread-making groove. I need to do something my wife appreciates!

Weary

Sly
01-08-2010, 19:52
Wear,

They are a cult. As for money that you say they don't received. The 12-tribe is worth several billions, that is billions.

They have a tribe in Plymouth, MA and do quite well for themselves. They're also community conscience and plan on making a walking mall from the waterfront to downtown (several blocks). As far as I could tell the idea was well received.


http://www.wickedlocal.com/plymouth/news/business/x1176010301/Twelve-Tribes-wants-to-buy-buildings-create-square

Nean
01-08-2010, 20:02
As would I, except for an educational experience in the nature of cults. That is the only reason I would visit, regardless

Weary

Peter Townsend comes to mind...:eek:

Lone Wolf
01-08-2010, 21:27
As would I, except for an educational experience in the nature of cults. That is the only reason I would visit,

kinda like rusty's

bfitz
01-09-2010, 19:35
Yeah. What's up with that? I noticed that when a thread starts about the Twelve Tribes, not too long after that someone like davidderush or James Case joins whiteblaze, comments exclusively on the Twelve Tribes thread, and then disappears. Is there a Twelve Tribes Official Online Monitor who spends his day googling "Twelve Tribes" all day who then dispatches one of the members who's allowed to use a computer to rebut arguments?



Actually, in terms of the line "they don't run hostels . . ." you could stop right there in reference to Greymoor, because, you know, they don't run a hostel. And as for the rest of it, I believe you're setting up a bit of a false equivalency. "Abusing children and other atrocities" committed by members of the Catholic faith have definitely occurred. And in many instances, these were either covered up by the Church hierarchy (in the case of child abuse) or officially sanctioned (the Inquisition, for example). But in pretty much all of these cases, the Church later admitted that they had lost their way, that they had strayed from the teachings they were supposed to be following.

And that's the sort of thing that will happen when humans, with all of their failings, are involved.

The issue with the Twelve Tribes is that the negative aspects of the group are official policy, central to the tenets they follow.

I personally am a former Catholic. Totally indoctrinated, still have all of the prayers memorized. And although it's a nice thing that when I left the Church I actually had my own money with which I could find my own way in the world (a luxury not afforded to people who leave TT), the part that was even better was that my friends and family who remained Catholic weren't told by the Church that they had to break all ties with me.

Which is a very lucky thing for all of you who enjoy my Mom's baked goods.

I'm afraid I'm with Wolf -- both of them -- on this one.



Yeah. I don't think there are too many people that would make the argument that they aren't nice to hikers. Why wouldn't they be? "Bad service" or "they're mean to hikers" isn't really the argument anyone seems to be making, so I'm not sure why "they were nice to me" seems to be the major rebuttal position.

I guess for many hikers it doesn't matter who's running the hostel, as long as it's cheap and there's a bed, and no one is trying to recruit them with a hard sell. I suppose for me it comes down to whether I want to tacitly approve of something by associating with and giving money or labor to something that I find to be at the very least distasteful, and at worst harmful. All good points, jester. But uh, isn't the pope sposed to be infallible? I mean how can the church go astray if the pope oks it? Anyway...Tongue in cheek aside...the atrocities committed by the catholic church I was referring to were mostly things done to me by nuns while I was in grade school. And, truth be told, most of that was psychological terrorism, not physical abuse, or at least not extreme physical abuse. I did have one priest in the 9th grade who explained to me that he had personally been present at exorcisms. "what was it like father Connelly?" "Just like in the movie...." He also threw a chalk board eraser at me once. Of course thart was one individual, not the church as an entity, however, stories like mine seem ubiquitous among folks who attended catholic school and grew up in families like ours. Fact is, I really enjoy the stories and looking back I'm glad it happened, because despite the bruises and personality disorders, the best educating I received in my life I got before the 7th grade, carried me all the way through high school. But truly you are more likely to run into this isolate and brainwash stuff in the smaller religions, who kind of suck up the leftovers the big mainstream religions didn't catch. Most of the bestsellers have modified their approach to sell to a more mainstream demographic, so you wont catch the pope saying things like its okay to molest altar boys, and now we're getting all these semi apologies for stuff like the holocaust complicity etc. Fact remains, all religions stem from early attempts at mind control and religion in general has been one of the most effective social controls ever developed by mankind.

By the way...where is this KKK hostel and what are their prices? Shuttles? Do they have a TV and video library?

bfitz
01-09-2010, 19:46
My aunt is a nun, by the way, and a saint. I got no problem with anyone's personal choice of delusions, whatever gets you through the day is fine with me. As weary is trying to say...there are good people and bad people anywhere you care to look...people generally act according to their personality, not their religion. I've become a Druish rastafarian buddhist, it's great! We have no hostel yet but when it opens all the work will be done by children and it will be the most popular hostel on the trail. Until miss janets new one opens. Then I can go back to my regular church.

weary
01-09-2010, 20:07
All good points, jester. But uh, isn't the pope sposed to be infallible? I mean how can the church go astray if the pope oks it? Anyway...Tongue in cheek aside...the atrocities committed by the catholic church I was referring to were mostly things done to me by nuns while I was in grade school. And, truth be told, most of that was psychological terrorism, not physical abuse, or at least not extreme physical abuse. I did have one priest in the 9th grade who explained to me that he had personally been present at exorcisms. "what was it like father Connelly?" "Just like in the movie...." He also threw a chalk board eraser at me once. Of course thart was one individual, not the church as an entity, however, stories like mine seem ubiquitous among folks who attended catholic school and grew up in families like ours. Fact is, I really enjoy the stories and looking back I'm glad it happened, because despite the bruises and personality disorders, the best educating I received in my life I got before the 7th grade, carried me all the way through high school. But truly you are more likely to run into this isolate and brainwash stuff in the smaller religions, who kind of suck up the leftovers the big mainstream religions didn't catch. Most of the bestsellers have modified their approach to sell to a more mainstream demographic, so you wont catch the pope saying things like its okay to molest altar boys, and now we're getting all these semi apologies for stuff like the holocaust complicity etc. Fact remains, all religions stem from early attempts at mind control and religion in general has been one of the most effective social controls ever developed by mankind.

By the way...where is this KKK hostel and what are their prices? Shuttles? Do they have a TV and video library?
A great post, bfitz.

Weary

Jester2000
01-11-2010, 10:55
All good points, jester. But uh, isn't the pope sposed to be infallible? I mean how can the church go astray if the pope oks it?

The infallibility of the Pope is an incredibly misunderstood doctrine, in that the Pope is not infallible in all things he says and does. He is infallible only when releasing encyclicals and making statements regarding Church doctrine.

Rockhound
01-11-2010, 11:27
So when church doctrine says move a pedophile priest from the U.S. to the Vatican where he will not face any charges, that's infallibility? Just seems to me the Catholic church has done damage to far more children than 12 tribes has. I personally don't agree with their beliefs, but from what I've seen They are happy people that live a little different than the rest of society. Yes the children are home schooled. Whats wrong with that? Our public school system is not exactly top notch anymore, (no fault of the teachers) Yes the children help with the work. What's wrong with that. Seems there are hundreds of farms across America where the children work harder each day than most of the population. In fact if you wish to condemn them for breaking child labor laws you might as well go after the entire Amish community while you're at it. I am positive there are far fewer and less severe behavioral problems with their children than society at large. I wonder if there is a correlation? Again, I think their whole belief system is crazy. Then again I feel that way about most religions. As far as their way of life is concerned all I can say is, sweep your own porch or, to put it in more familiar terms, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Jester2000
01-11-2010, 11:46
So when church doctrine says move a pedophile priest from the U.S. to the Vatican where he will not face any charges, that's infallibility? . . .

Um, no. When we're talking about "doctrine," we're talking about a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject (so we say "Church Doctrine" when we're talking about things like Mary being born without original sin, or transubstantiation). Chuch doctrine has nothing to do with the transfer of priests, regardless of the reason. Your question highlights my statement that "the infallibility of the Pope is an incredibly misunderstood doctrine."

Blue Jay
01-11-2010, 12:30
Jack,

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]No one is saying anything different but you know as well as I do it is very difficult while on the trail to know where your money is supporting when you stay some place. If I stay at a hotel/motel or eat out, I don't know who is running the place behind the scenes. If it is run by groups like the KKK, Black Panthers, terrorist groups or groups like the 12-tribes which has been found guity of several serious crimes, I don't want anything to do with them and would encourage others to do the same. All some of us are doing is giving out the facts about the what their stay is really supporting.

I understand your argument and even agree with much of it, however comparing 12 Tribes to the KKK or terrorist groups is waaaay out of line. Most religions have aspects that are distasteful, from the ones you mentioned to 501(c)(3) violations and various other political offenses.
IMO 12 Tribes is no worse than most other religious organizations.

Yahtzee
01-11-2010, 12:41
I understand your argument and even agree with much of it, however comparing 12 Tribes to the KKK or terrorist groups is waaaay out of line. Most religions have aspects that are distasteful, from the ones you mentioned to 501(c)(3) violations and various other political offenses.
IMO 12 Tribes is no worse than most other religious organizations.

Substitute women for blacks and they sound similar to me.

Twelve Tribes treatment of women, alone, should be enough to warrant staying elsewhere.

Krag
01-11-2010, 18:04
Substitute women for blacks and they sound similar to me.

Twelve Tribes treatment of women, alone, should be enough to warrant staying elsewhere.

Are women really mistreated here?

Has the "women's liberation" movement been to the advantage of men and women? Look at the statistics over the last century in terms of divorce, stds, violence which often arises over competition within love triangles and other results of sexual liberation. You will find none of that there, a strong commitment to families, and to family values.

The big issue is mind control. And Nabashalom, who posted earlier, and had many years of experience living with the TTs, the issues are as he stated, a top down authoritarian situation.

http://www.factnet.org/

Yahtzee
01-11-2010, 18:11
Krag, you are barking up the wrong tree on that one. I have many, many qualms with the manner in which the women's lib movement has gone about its business. However, to answer your question, yes, women are being mistreated here. They are isolated and left with no skills that might be needed to break away from the group. Their labor is being exploited. If there wasn't a religion attached to these practices, I'm guessing there would be much more of an uproar over the plight of women in the Twelve Tribes. However, just calling something a religious practice or belief will always be great cover for bigoted behavior.

Rockhound
01-11-2010, 19:19
They make a great cup of joe and everyone I met there seemed very happy, men, women and children.

Jack Tarlin
01-11-2010, 20:16
Yeah, and the trains in Italy ran on time in the 20's and 30's, too.......

There are times when serving a decent cup of coffee isn't necessarily enough.

Again: People really concerned about this should read up and study on their owm, and THEN make an informed decision about where they think they might want to stay, same as they would any other place on the Trail that folks talk about.

Frosty
01-11-2010, 20:22
Substitute women for blacks and they sound similar to me..I see no need to inject racism into this discussion.

Jack Tarlin
01-11-2010, 20:27
Nothing racist whatsoever about Yahtzee's comment. Frosty is out of line here. He was implying that if certain groups/ethnic groups groups were treated the way that this organization allegedly treats women it wouldn't be acceptable in the hiking community.

Frosty: If Yahtzee is wrong here, tell us why he is, with details, based on your knowledge.

Racism is an ugly thing. False accusations of racism are equally ugly.

bfitz
01-11-2010, 21:08
Yeah, I'd say the twelve tribes are definitely far far worse than the average catholic diocese these days, but that wasn't always the case. They do teach that women must obey certain rules different than men, and that is as inherently wrong when they do it as it was when our entire society condoned it up until the early twentieth century or so...or when some primitive ignoramus in the Middle East or Africa or North Carolina or Rutland does it today. Corporal punishment of their children I think is a thing that really needs to be examined on an individual basis, because some parents or cultures or whatever are simply strict philosophically but not cruel or sadistic, and like I said, folks got a right to raise their kids according to what they believe, for better or worse. A swat or a spanking given with love in the belief that it is for the child's good is one thing but it takes a sadist or a disturbed individual to really abuse a child. No matter how they treat their women or teach them, abusing her child is not something you can just tell a mother to do and she'll do it.

Just a Hiker
01-11-2010, 21:22
There's lots of choices when you get to Rt 4 in Vermont.....one doesn't have to stay at 12 Tribes. You can walk up to the Inn at the Long Trail and stay, or if you're low on cash, you can put your tent up accross the road from the Inn. Also, many of the hotels in Rutland give a pretty good "Hiker Discount". Or....you can just cross Rt 4 and keep on walking. If you don't like the place......you don't have to stay there.

bfitz
01-11-2010, 21:26
The infallibility of the Pope is an incredibly misunderstood doctrine, in that the Pope is not infallible in all things he says and does. He is infallible only when releasing encyclicals and making statements regarding Church doctrine.
But haven't some of the things the popes these days are apologizing for been just that? I mean...Also, how much official church doctrine has been revised by later popes, or at least after the vatican 2 thingy. Not saying you actually think the pope is infallible, but seriously....just another example of the utter absurdity of the whole religion scam. I mean, if no one had ever heard of religion and some folks started sending emails from nigeria telling you whatever your nearest church is telling it's members right now you'd notice a few red flags. Ya, send in your tithes, repress your desires, do what ol pastor mullah shaman witch doctor tells you and, well, you'll be rewarded. Yeah it'll be great! Angels and harps and sixty two, no SEVENTY two virgins...yeah. No really. Yeah, well, see, it's after you die...yeah. yeah, uh, this all powerful being really wants you there. So he made you. But he wasn't sure how well so he's testing you. Yeah all this is just a test. Do what we say and you'll pass it and get into the real party. After you die. But no one can ever come back and verify. Yeah that's the test...you have to believe it on just our word...other folks who say exactly the same thing we're saying are really just trying to trick you, ours is the only real deal. That's why we don't let you read any books about evolution. Or watch any movies from satans great moviemaking studio of the west. uh huh. We really really want you to get those virgins. Thats why we try so hard to help you find your way. Out of love and dedication. Make check out to pastor jimmy jones. That's right. ok I'll fill in the rest. God bless you.

weary
01-11-2010, 21:33
Most hostels along the trail just like the idea of thru hiking, and long distance hiking, and want to support it. Or, in some cases, just like to meet and communicate with hikers. I know that is true of The Cabin in Maine. I suspect it is true of most hostels, other than those that seek mostly profits and are almost certainly to be disappointed. I have yet to see any indication that the "Twelve Tribes" fits any of these definitions.

Therefore, I say. Stay there if you are interested in exploring the nature of a cult. Stay there if you don't care what message to others you are promoting. Stay there if it is cold and windy, and, whatever, (any port in a storm) But otherwise stay away.

Weary

bfitz
01-11-2010, 21:42
There's lots of choices when you get to Rt 4 in Vermont.....one doesn't have to stay at 12 Tribes. You can walk up to the Inn at the Long Trail and stay, or if you're low on cash, you can put your tent up accross the road from the Inn. Also, many of the hotels in Rutland give a pretty good "Hiker Discount". Or....you can just cross Rt 4 and keep on walking. If you don't like the place......you don't have to stay there.Huh? Oh yeah, we were talking about the hostel. And you're right, and a thread like this is a great place to get input from folks before you get there and have to make that that decision. The motels in Rutland are very affordable, the Travel Inn, while a dive by regular travellers standards is luxurious compared to any hiker hostel, and the nice lady gave us a room for 40 bucks when we asked for a hiker discount. I'm pretty sure all she understood was discount, but she gave it....two beds, a tv, our own shower, privacy etc. and for 20 bucks each...1/4 mile from a grocery store and all amenities you could desire. It was like bein in the south again.

weary
01-12-2010, 00:16
why make fun of, or denigrate any religion or "cult"? if one doesn't believe what another group does, who cares?

if one cares enough to make fun or try to bring down another's beliefs, i would suspect it's because their belief structure is seriously lacking.:-?
Well, some cults deal less with religion, than with politics. I'll continue to observe, and oppose, religions that can't separate the two.

Weary

Wolf - 23000
01-12-2010, 00:55
I understand your argument and even agree with much of it, however comparing 12 Tribes to the KKK or terrorist groups is waaaay out of line. Most religions have aspects that are distasteful, from the ones you mentioned to 501(c)(3) violations and various other political offenses.
IMO 12 Tribes is no worse than most other religious organizations.

Blue Jay,

Just to clarified my point. I am not trying to compare the 12-tribes to the KKK or a terrorist group. I only used the KKK or mention terrorist as examples.


As for the 12 Tribes being no worse than other religious organizations I can't agree with. The 12 Tribes will put down women a LOT. I don't know any other religion that the community will decide who a woman can be friends with or can talk with. Ever religion had a few bad apples who actions did not represent the views of the church but the 12-tribes has been fine as a whole for criminal actions. The only other group that get fine like that are cults.

ed bell
01-12-2010, 01:19
Huh? Oh yeah, we were talking about the hostel. And you're right, and a thread like this is a great place to get input from folks before you get there and have to make that that decision. The motels in Rutland are very affordable, the Travel Inn, while a dive by regular travellers standards is luxurious compared to any hiker hostel, and the nice lady gave us a room for 40 bucks when we asked for a hiker discount. I'm pretty sure all she understood was discount, but she gave it....two beds, a tv, our own shower, privacy etc. and for 20 bucks each...1/4 mile from a grocery store and all amenities you could desire. It was like bein in the south again. Thanks for veering back on topic. :D

Wolf - 23000
01-12-2010, 01:20
Are women really mistreated here?

Has the "women's liberation" movement been to the advantage of men and women? Look at the statistics over the last century in terms of divorce, stds, violence which often arises over competition within love triangles and other results of sexual liberation. You will find none of that there, a strong commitment to families, and to family values.

The big issue is mind control. And Nabashalom, who posted earlier, and had many years of experience living with the TTs, the issues are as he stated, a top down authoritarian situation.

http://www.factnet.org/

Krag,

Just because two people stayed married doesn't mean they should stay married. It doesn't mean they are happy or love one another. It just means they are "together" only.

The family value that you are referring to, I'm sure you maybe believe that all fathers should have their children work enough to be FINE involving criminal charges for child labor laws. Any toys such as a ball, frisbee, etc are taken away so that the children can spend more time with their father WORKING.

As for Nabashalom comments it is a top down authoritarian situation. I think everyone here been saying that. The group themselves believes a women should not be trusted with the decisions the affect the tribe or her family. Her place is to clean, cook or do "women jobs".

Wolf

ed bell
01-12-2010, 01:34
While I'm sure that there are plenty of topics related to the "Twelve Tribes" that could and should be discussed here, this isn't the correct forum or thread for it. Please continue any discussions unrelated to the hostel accomodations in another thread.

Wolf - 23000
01-12-2010, 05:04
While I'm sure that there are plenty of topics related to the "Twelve Tribes" that could and should be discussed here, this isn't the correct forum or thread for it. Please continue any discussions unrelated to the hostel accomodations in another thread.

ed,

This is the Hostels & Lodgings form. Everything here is related to is related to "Hostels & Lodgings". Just like any other place, I like to know where to stay and were to ADVOID at ALL COST.

If you stay there or not is up to you. I think it stands to reasoning why there is such a so many people seem to think some very bad things and can be research about it the place. I think hikers should be aware of this stuff.

Wolf

bfitz
01-12-2010, 09:42
It's easy to understand why the idea of something with a negative vibe like this on the AT could get under people's skin. There have been a lot of other similar seeming cults or groups or what have you with eerily similar sounding aspects that have ended up having a terrible impact on the lives of the members, their families and children, and the idea of one of these operating on the AT is something I doubt any of us is comfortable with. And it's something anyone who cares about the AT should really think about when deciding where to spend their time. I do think the Rutland enclave is really more like a bunch of sort of misguided hippies not likely to go waco or anything, but the cut outside ties, isolate and brainwash thing is obviously going on to some extent, and that's a red flag fer sure.

Krag
01-12-2010, 11:39
A black, er--African-American woman visited their place in Bellows Falls last year--here is her account: http://www.commonsnews.org/test3/story.php?articleno=663&page=1

bfitz
01-12-2010, 14:37
Funny I heard a story very similar from my mormon friend, but in his story, blacks were the descendants of Cain, with the mark of Cain signifying their need to atone for their ancestor's sin. I wonder how many other similarly themed stories are out there? It's like the song whiskey in the jar, a million different verses but always the same chorus...

ed bell
01-12-2010, 19:27
ed,

This is the Hostels & Lodgings form. Everything here is related to is related to "Hostels & Lodgings".

WolfThe discussions getting into the religious and social structure of the people in this group are getting way outside the hostel amenities. I suggested starting another thread with the topic you want to discuss. I havent removed or altered anything here and a simple search of "Twelve Tribes" or "Rutland" will provide pages and pages of more info and threads on this.

bfitz
01-12-2010, 19:56
The discussions getting into the religious and social structure of the people in this group are getting way outside the hostel amenities. I suggested starting another thread with the topic you want to discuss. I havent removed or altered anything here and a simple search of "Twelve Tribes" or "Rutland" will provide pages and pages of more info and threads on this.
Well, in this case I'd say the desirability of the lodging is affected by the affiliations of the group...folks who choose to stay there should know exactly who they're paying. Many who otherwise would stay might not after reading an article like the above. But it's true this can be discussed at greater length elsewhere and also true anyone reading this thread has already gleaned enough about the controversy to find out more without a theological debate raging on this thread. But removing any references entirely would have been uncalled for because it's a legitimate concern for potential hiker patrons planning a stop in Rutland. So, good call, ref.

Wolf - 23000
01-13-2010, 00:12
Ed,


If your referring to post made by Pebble Puppy and Jester in #201, #202, #203 in bring up the Pope and the Catholic church then yes I think that did stray off topic some. As for hikers concerns of their social structure of the people of the 12-tribes, that is within bounds.


There are hikers here that may feel the 12-tribes is not the right place to stay for them after reading what they stand for. Do you think a all female hikers here like knowing or seeing that the women in the community have no say in what goes on or are expected to do "women chores". Do you think some couples hiking together like knowing they can't spend the night together? Or do you think some hikers her might have a problem staying in a place that has been investigated and found guilty of violation of child labor laws? It's a legitimate concern that hikers should be aware of.


Wolf

Jack Tarlin
01-13-2010, 18:52
Ed:

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here.

On several occasions over the years, there has been lively discussion in the hiker community about certain hiker businesses/lodging places, etc., and whether or not hikers are aware of who runs these places and HOW they are run. It is thru discussions and information exchange that future hikers can make educated and informed decisions about where they want to spend their time and money, and where, for whatever reason, they decide not to.

This thread is about a place in Vermont that offers services to hikers, and it is ENTIRELY germane to the subject to talk about who runs this facility and how they do so, and it would frankly be a dis-service to future hikers to curtail or shut down this dialogue.

Places that have nothing to fear or nothing to hide from don't need to be defended by an imposed wall of silence regrading who they are and how they
run their facilities.

Krag
01-13-2010, 20:13
The 12 Tribes responded to the article cited previously, sorry I didn't give a link to that: http://www.twelvetribes.com/controversies/tribe-like-no-other-response.html

Wolf - 23000
01-13-2010, 20:52
The 12 Tribes responded to the article cited previously, sorry I didn't give a link to that: http://www.twelvetribes.com/controversies/tribe-like-no-other-response.html

Krag,

Thank you for post that but I would question the credibility of the responds. The statement is made by a "wife and mother" representing the 12-tribe. Interesting considering public statements made representing the 12-tribes are consider a "man's duty" - not a woman duty.


Also interesting statement that "We pay our taxes and earn our own living." Last time I check, churches in VT were tax exemption and churches in general were suppose to be non-profit. :-?

http://atheism.about.com/od/churchestaxexemptions/a/churchexemption.htm

Wolf

ed bell
01-13-2010, 21:17
Ed:

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here.

On several occasions over the years, there has been lively discussion in the hiker community about certain hiker businesses/lodging places, etc., and whether or not hikers are aware of who runs these places and HOW they are run. It is thru discussions and information exchange that future hikers can make educated and informed decisions about where they want to spend their time and money, and where, for whatever reason, they decide not to.

This thread is about a place in Vermont that offers services to hikers, and it is ENTIRELY germane to the subject to talk about who runs this facility and how they do so, and it would frankly be a dis-service to future hikers to curtail or shut down this dialogue.

Places that have nothing to fear or nothing to hide from don't need to be defended by an imposed wall of silence regrading who they are and how they
run their facilities.

Jack, I suggested that there were plenty of posts and threads about this place and I didn't suggest that I was about to do anything about the responses here. I pointed out that this Forum is about Lodging and Hostels in Vermont. Being a stickler for having threads in the proper places just simplifies the way forums work. While I understand that talking about who runs the facility and how they do so is part of this, discussing in depth the beliefs and social structure of this group gets into an area of discussion that gets easily off track. If this hostel was run by the Catholic Church, there would be certain ways the discussion could go far outside the bounds of what this Forum could or should support. That is my point, so I am not seeing any disagreement. I'm not part of the discussion on this place, so I'll step back now.

Thanks,
ed

nabashalam
01-15-2010, 00:04
I was in The TT from 97-2004 and actually helped build the Hostel and the Shoe Store next to it as I also was a prep cook at the cafe. If anyone has any questuions about this grouops beliefs, teachings, inner workings and business practices I am willing and able to answer you in all factual unbiased answers.

Fire away...

And Hey there Wolf! I have a pretty good notion who you are...

Om mani padme hung....:o

Wolf - 23000
01-15-2010, 04:41
I never tried to hide who I was but honor that you remember me. :) Let me think, if I remember right it was July 2005 when you told me I should break off my friendship with one of your female members that I knew for 12 years because it was your belief that a man and a woman should not be such close friends - even if it was photonic.

I remember my stay too and been sharing my experience with the 12-tribe, sharing my knowledge helping out when I can. I've been involved in hiking and the Appalachian Trail for the last 20 years plus so I think it is important that hikers understand what the 12-tribes REAL stand for before the stay there. I'm sure you understand.

During my tour in Iraq, I was actually thinking of you and the 12-tribes. When my Iraq counterpart was telling me about their culture, it was amazing to hear how similar the beliefs were with the 12-tribes. :-? The roles they believed a man had and a woman duty in their culture were identical to the 12-tribe. May I suggest you go there at least for a visit? I think you would be very happy there. :) If you need help get there, I'll be willing to help out.
inshallah إن شاء الله

Wolf

Rockhound
01-15-2010, 09:31
Krag,

Thank you for post that but I would question the credibility of the responds. The statement is made by a "wife and mother" representing the 12-tribe. Interesting considering public statements made representing the 12-tribes are consider a "man's duty" - not a woman duty.


Also interesting statement that "We pay our taxes and earn our own living." Last time I check, churches in VT were tax exemption and churches in general were suppose to be non-profit. :-?

http://atheism.about.com/od/churchestaxexemptions/a/churchexemption.htm

Wolf
Churches in general non-profit?! You have heard of the Catholic church right? The church that has more wealth than Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Oprah and the Waltons combined right?

warraghiyagey
01-15-2010, 09:41
I used to watch the Walton's. . . they didn't seem very rich to me. . .

nabashalam
01-15-2010, 12:23
Wolf...sorry! Your not who I thought you were...I have an ex-member friend who lives in Hawaii and I thought you were he.

And thank you for your service to our country...

respectfully and sincerely from the desk of David T Pike -SGT. USAF 1974-1978


In Lak' ech! http://www.kachina.net/~alunajoy/2007nov.html (http://www.kachina.net/%7Ealunajoy/2007nov.html) :o

Wolf - 23000
01-15-2010, 16:23
nabashalam,

Maybe I'm thinking of someone else too. I remember seeing my friend in Washington D.C. and one of their members with a similar name to yours telling me that I should cut my tied with her. They really gave her a hard time for 6 years for us remaining friends.

It was a similar name to your but I also have a hard time pronouncing many of their names their. So maybe I'm thinking of someone else too.

Peace,

Wolf

P.S. I can't post my military name here. I am currently active duty of 11 years and could be seen as me speaking on behalf of the US Army.

Wolf - 23000
01-15-2010, 16:45
Churches in general non-profit?! You have heard of the Catholic church right? The church that has more wealth than Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Oprah and the Waltons combined right?

Pebble Puppy,

As I'm sure you know most of the Catholic Church wealth is in real estate and art work which is free for all to see. A piece of property or art work is only a valuable as someone is willing to buy it. A beautiful master piece of art painted could be worth $5.00 or 5 billion dollars. It all depends on what people deem its worth. The Catholic Church also has a lot more members than Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Oprah and the Waltons.


I think we are also getting off topic.


Wolf

nabashalam
01-15-2010, 16:52
well Nabashalam I creted after I got out and it means "I prophesy my recovery/restoration" in hebrew

There were 2 other Pikes in also. Skip and Chip. no relation between the three of us. My name in the Tribes was Daveed Yathed and Skip who was there since 1974 at it's conception, name was just Yathed. He was the original and it means spike/nail/tent peg because we both had the tendency to leave and come back so we were to put a "peg" in our foot! I can't remember the other Pike's Tribe name.

Kinda like you guyses trail names! It is supposed to reflect who you are or what your like...

nabashalam
01-15-2010, 17:06
The Tribes did not make the Hostel to make money nor are there cafe's built for that purpose. Their purpose is strictly for low pressure evangelism. They will run a cafe at a loss! They hope to find people on the trails who are seeking something or running away from something and feel a hostel would create a target rich environment as well as going to the "scenes" at huge concerts. They used to follow the dead for this purpose. Dance and sing, give away tea and cookies and even provide first aid for those who need it. They still do this and even go to huge Christian gatherings hoping to find that one or two disgruntled Christian to Shanghai. It even says on the back of their Hippie Buses "We'll Take You Home. We know the WAY!"

RollingStone
01-16-2010, 10:09
While I am certain the 12 Tribes Hostel and people are nice, I elected not to stay there last June after I walked into the mens dorm to find a couple of town transients sleeping there with nowhere to secure my pack. We couldn't locate anyone for the hostel either to unlock the womens dorm so my daughter would have a place to go.

It was a real turn off to me, but I am sure the positive experiences people have reported are just that. Good positive experiences. If you don't feel comfortable with the "religious" aspect of any hostel, then simply don't stay there and HYOH. But to sit here on a webboard and carry on about the religious side is a little beyond the pale. It's a free country, founded on freedom of religion, freedom of speech, separation of church and state. As much as some of you don't want religious organizations pushing off their beliefs onto you, you have no right to push your own beliefs onto those participating in a discussion that has grown extremely off topic.

nabashalam
01-16-2010, 16:52
What if you had a Islamic extremest, known to be destructive and hurtful, open a hostel? Would you go there?:-?

RollingStone
01-17-2010, 01:23
Could care less what religion any human being subscribes to as long as they respect my choice as I do theirs. If they can't respect it, then I would move on from that establishment.

There are all kinds of "extremists" out there. There are right wing political extremists, there are Christian Extremists, there are Islamic Extremists and so forth. What's so special singling out Islam?

nabashalam
01-17-2010, 01:28
I just used them for an example. I didn't single them out. Maybe I should have said Moslem/ Bhuddist/ Mormon/Bahai extremest... If you looking to pick a fight while you strain out gnats as you swallow camels go ahead... as you choke...

Blue Jay
01-17-2010, 09:59
I certainly hope a mouse religion does not develop. Some of you will be too scared to leave the house.:eek:

nabashalam
01-17-2010, 10:34
http://www.iottc.blogspot.com/ http://yattt.blogspot.com/ (http://yattt.blogspot.com/)


http://www.twelvetribes-ex.com/

and some of their "Teachings" and beliefs you might like to see....

http://www.twelvetribesteachings.com/ :-?

kombiguy
01-17-2010, 13:31
But haven't some of the things the popes these days are apologizing for been just that? I mean...Also, how much official church doctrine has been revised by later popes, or at least after the vatican 2 thingy. Not saying you actually think the pope is infallible, but seriously.....

For the Pope to speak infallibly, 3 conditions must be met. He must be speaking "ex cathedra," that is, as the head of the church; he must be speaking on a matter of faith and/or morals; and he must be speaking to the church universal. No statement meeting that criteria, and there are very few of them, has ever been revised by a later Pope. And yes, some of us do believe in the Pope's infallibility.

ed bell
01-17-2010, 13:38
This thread has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. There are plenty of off topic posts here, but that doesn't give carte blanche for more posts and responses to those. Please stay on topic.

nabashalam
01-17-2010, 17:14
Now you are really off topic...

but I'll use it as a segue... The Twelve Tribes believes the Catholic Church is the "Harlot of Babylon" and all the denominations that spun off her, all the protestants, Mormons, Baptists, all of them are sisters of the Harlot and they, The Twelve Tribes, are the one and only true Church and "Body of Christ" The "Bride of Christ" and it is their job to do certain things before Messiah will return. They believe the Catholic Church and all Her followers wil "Burn in one day..." and so the are here to "Call people out of all the Churches because if they don't "Come out of Her" They will all go to the Lake of Fire for Eternity...

Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her,(the Catholic Church, Her sisters and all their parishioners) my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.

Rev 18:7 Give her (the Catholic Church, Her sisters and all their parishioners) as much torture and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
'I sit as queen; I am not a widow,
and I will never mourn.'
8Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her. :eek: