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SavageLlama
07-25-2006, 02:09
Article from today's local Charlotte paper..


He envisions more hiking in his future
Charlotte Observer (NC)
July 24, 2006

Bill Irwin is the only blind person to have hiked the entire Appalachian Trail. The former Burlington, N.C., resident has since parlayed that experience into a book and a motivational speaking career. Staff writer Jennifer Rothacker spoke with Irwin, 65, who lives in Maine with his wife, Debra.

Q. Are you still hiking?

Not really because I don't have time. The last year and a half, we've been adopting a little girl. That's taken a tremendous amount of my time. She's a (12-year-old) girl we met at our church. She's in the DHHS (Department of Health and Human Services) system. Amanda's what we call a difficult, high-intensity, high-energy child. Which means her behavior is less than what most people would desire when adopting a child.

They placed her in our care, and two months later took her away from us. We're in the process of fighting the system to be reunified with our little princess.

Q. What happened?

We have a different lifestyle. We're vegans, we eat no animal products, and we're Christians. We're committed to spiritual activities. They (DHHS) couldn't tolerate that. They didn't like that when she had a temper tantrum we'd pray over her and that would calm her right down. They thought it was some sort of voodoo or cultish practice.

They held a kangaroo court, took her away. We haven't been able to contact her since. It's devastating to all of us. We talked to the governor today and he's investigating it.

Q. Do you have other children?

I have three grown children; my wife has none. We felt it was a good investment, the only chance this little girl would have for a good life.

Q. Are you hoping to resume hiking?

Since this stress with Amanda, we've been taking weekends to reintroduce ourselves to fun activities. Last weekend we camped out at a lake, canoed.

We're in the middle of hiking the Finger Lake Trails. That's only 600 miles; we're about halfway done with it.

Q. You used a Seeing Eye Dog, Orient, during your Appalachian Trail hike. Do you still keep a dog?

I have a fairly new one, just turned 5. He's my first non-shepherd. He's a cross between a black lab and a golden retriever. Colby.

Q. Have you re-hiked any parts of the Appalachian Trail?

Oh, yeah, I've done a lot of sections over again. I've also done trails all over the world. The Appalachian Trail was 2,168 miles. Since then I've done another 5,000 miles.

Q. What's your motivational speech message?

If I can do it, anybody can.

# # #

Jaybird
07-25-2006, 05:42
Tell Bill...his buddy "Model T" will be entering Maine soon on the A.T(his 4th thru-hike)....& he could get in few miles with "M.T."....hehehehehehe:D

Cedar Tree
07-25-2006, 07:41
I just started reading Bill's book last night, got through the first few chapters. Pretty good, but AT books make me miss the trail badly.
Cedar Tree

Frolicking Dinosaurs
07-25-2006, 07:41
Glad to hear he plans to hike again. I hope his new dog, Colby, turns out to be a good hiking dog.

It makes my blood boil when I hear about states who allow their supervisors' personal prejudices about families' lifestyles to interfere with adoptions. You can bet the social worker working directly with the Irwins and that workers' immediate supervisor wer comfortable with the situation (or Amanda would have never been placed at all), but was forced to disrupt it due to pressure from above. Several foster children have grown up and sued various states for having done this to them -- and have won. A kick in the pocketbook (which draws the ire of the top dogs) and bad press are the only things that will change such practices. The way the states react to losing a lawsuit is to make a bunch of new rules. Getting politicians involved - especially if they are getting letters and calls from voters about the situation - also works on single situations. Too bad no state has ever had the guts to make this rule "if the child is doing well in the placement and there are no signs of coersion or abuse - let the adoption happen"

Newb
07-25-2006, 07:56
The DHHS can't have children learning how to pray and be vegans! If that happens the kids might grow up and NOT be dependent upon the state. Where will those DHHS jobs be then?

Lone Wolf
07-25-2006, 07:58
It ain't right to force a 12 year old to be a vegan or a christian.

frieden
07-25-2006, 08:52
Irwin has such media clout, this will be resolved soon. Seriously, would your governor or congressman drop everything, and help you? So far, it hasn't worked for me.

People don't like something that is different to them. I got kicked out of my church, because I'm a Democrat, and I'm a Democrat because I care about the environment. I just got turned down for a job (after getting it), because the guy's wife knew me from church. I just wanted to call her up, and say, "Yes, I still have the John Kerry sticker on my car - b**ch!" I can see where it would be a crime to be both a vegan and a Christian. I don't think the Church would approve of that. "Killing" and "Christian" are like "peanut butter" and "jelly". Christians have the bloodiest history that I know of in any religion. They might allow an adult to be vegan, and try to work on their "sin", but they wouldn't allow it to spread. That's what did me in. They tolerated me as a Democrat, but booted me out when I became active (helping the Democrats, even though it was outside of the church). You know, everyone is allowed to be a sinner, but they can't let it spread.

I just heard this morning that a state (Virginia?) is trying to take a child away from parents, because they are wanting to use natural alternative medicine for their child, instead of chemo. The parents say that the chance chemo is giving is low, and they want their child to be able to do things they've always wanted to do with their time left, and want to rely on alternative medicine in the meantime. If I heard correctly, they are hiding the child, and are willing to go to jail because of it. Heck ya, I'd take my child to another country! If you could spend your time hiking trails and living life, instead of being sick in a hospital before you die, which would you choose? The Government has no right to interfere with that decision. Are we allowed to make any decisions as parents, anymore?

Frolicking Dinosaurs
07-25-2006, 09:02
It ain't right to force a 12 year old to be a vegan or a christian.I agree, but is it OK for a 12 yo to choose to live with vegan, Christian parents? If the 12 yo was showing signs of religious coercion (doubtful since the Irwins met her at their church) or telling workers the food sucks, then I could understand why they disrupted the adoption, but there is no indication the child was troubled by these things - just that the state's hierarchy was.

TOW
07-25-2006, 09:17
It ain't right to force a 12 year old to be a vegan or a christian.Whoa! Bill ain't forcing that little girl to see things his way. He simply said that he and his wife uses prayer to calm her down. Bill ain't that kind of operator!

I know you know Bill, but I too have come to know the man in person and through email. When I was in Greenville, Maine for a summer I would constantly run into him and Avery down at Shaws in Monson.

In my opinion, that man forces his views on no one. He just wants to love this little girl and in his way of thinking, this is the best way to do it. She'll grow up to know that if she doesn't already.....

TOW
07-25-2006, 09:23
I encourage all thos who are members here and who support the Irwins in this situation, to write to the State of Maine and its Governor and let them know what you think!

GreyGoose
07-25-2006, 09:33
Bill Erwin?...Hmmmm...Is'nt he the guy over in Ozzyland who say's "Crikey, what a NAUGHTY little snake!" and "danger!!! danger!!!" a lot?. ;)

Lone Wolf
07-25-2006, 09:37
That would be Steve Irwin with an I. You're way off.:D

Two Speed
07-25-2006, 09:44
Given that we're talking about a "difficult, high-intensity, high-energy child" whose chances of adoption are probably poor, if that, I tend to believe that Irwin adopting this kid is giving her a break even if she was being forced to be a vegan and a christian. I'll phrase it this way: if anyone out there really objects to this child being raised as a vegan and a christian, perhaps they'd care to step up and offer the kid a better situation.

It's not that I'm crazy about christians and vegans; I'm not. However, I haven't seen anything that makes me think this kid is better off in state custody.

My $0.02. Back to lurking.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
07-25-2006, 09:44
GG, check out this site (http://www.billirwin.com/bio.cfm)for info on the Bill Irwin under discussion

Lone Wolf
07-25-2006, 09:45
Kids love Oscar Meyer bologna sammiches and hot dogs.:D

Frolicking Dinosaurs
07-25-2006, 09:46
Kids love Oscar Meyer bologna sammiches and hot dogs.:DTrue enough, but most of all they love being loved.

The Solemates
07-25-2006, 09:47
It ain't right to force a 12 year old to be a vegan or a christian.

you would have to agree that it would be a better life than what she had in the system...

Sly
07-25-2006, 09:47
Bill Irwin is the only blind person to have hiked the entire Appalachian Trail.

How blind is Bill if he can pour OJ to hikers at his ministry feast in Maine and have email correspondence with the Only Wanderer?

My buddy Hickory is also legally blind and section hiked it.

Since this is only Bill's view, I'll wait to pass judgement, but his efforts to calm the girl during a "temper tantrum" sounds cultish to me.

Lone Wolf
07-25-2006, 09:47
you would have to agree that it would be a better life than what she had in the system...
Yes I would agree.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
07-25-2006, 09:58
Sly, my recently deceased uncle was blind enough to wall into walls in unfamiliar environs and to be unable to recognize you until you spoke or he touched you, but he could cook, do laundry, feed his beloved cats and care for his garden in his familiar environment and he was only blind for five years. After so many years without sight, I imagine Bill has developed the ability to do many things using his other senses.

As for communicating, there is software that will convert text to voice and voice to text. We bought it for my mom who can no longer type due to Parkinson’s (unfortunately, she can no longer remember how to use the software due to Alzheimer’s)

Sly
07-25-2006, 10:07
As for communicating, there is software that will convert text to voice and voice to text. We bought it for my mom who can no longer type due to Parkinson’s (unfortunately, she can no longer remember how to use the software due to Alzheimer’s)

From Parkinson's to Alzheimer's, geez..... sorry..

GreyGoose
07-25-2006, 10:55
GG, check out this site (http://www.billirwin.com/bio.cfm)for info on the Bill Irwin under discussion

All I can say is AWESOME!!. This guy overcame soooo many obstacles. Still reading...

- GG

Alligator
07-25-2006, 13:23
My mom used to pray over me too. J____ C____ would you please stop that. Lord, give me strength.

J/K. Mom places JC and GD right up there with f***.

Maybe Bill is a 7th Day Adventist. He might be able to sue for religious discrimination. If he was Jewish, dinner would be Kosher, or if Muslim it would follow halal.

OK, maybe the praying is unusual, but at least they weren't beating the kid.

TOW
07-25-2006, 13:26
That would be Steve Irwin with an I. You're way off.:Dhahahaha:clap :dance :D

TOW
07-25-2006, 13:29
Kids love Oscar Meyer bologna sammiches and hot dogs.:Di knew there was something not quite ticking right with you, that's what you ate as a child huh? oscar meyer bologna sammiches are for adults only, you grew up way too fast............:banana

TOW
07-25-2006, 13:30
Since this is only Bill's view, I'll wait to pass judgement, but his efforts to calm the girl during a "temper tantrum" sounds cultish to me.oh horsey manure..................he's got a reader on his emailer............

TOW
07-25-2006, 13:32
Sly, my recently deceased uncle was blind enough to wall into walls in unfamiliar environs and to be unable to recognize you until you spoke or he touched you, but he could cook, do laundry, feed his beloved cats and care for his garden in his familiar environment and he was only blind for five years. After so many years without sight, I imagine Bill has developed the ability to do many things using his other senses.

As for communicating, there is software that will convert text to voice and voice to text. We bought it for my mom who can no longer type due to Parkinson’s (unfortunately, she can no longer remember how to use the software due to Alzheimer’s)bill can see some things like shapes, but only up close i think?

TOW
07-25-2006, 13:39
Hey FD, will please come back to the Israel/Lebanon thread and answer our question.............

mdionne
07-25-2006, 14:01
How blind is Bill if he can pour OJ to hikers at his ministry feast in Maine and have email correspondence with the Only Wanderer?

My buddy Hickory is also legally blind and section hiked it.

Since this is only Bill's view, I'll wait to pass judgement, but his efforts to calm the girl during a "temper tantrum" sounds cultish to me.


It is Bill's duty as a citizen of the world to raise offspring and teach them values that can be passed on to other generations. Only by way of natural selection and evolution will one find which ideals are most important. Political and religious issues are passed on as well (abortion, slavery, environment, etc.). Christians reproduce more than any other religion (and more than any other voter demography, as well).:-?

Sly, it all boils down to a simple math equation, if you don't like it then you need two offspring (preferrably women) to spread values opposite those of Bill...but that means I would have to have four, so don't bother.

Kudos to your friend Hickory, and completing his seciton hike. Are you questioning Bill's blindness because you don't think your friend is blind or did your friend do some blue blazing and now your questioning the validity of Bill's hike?:confused:

Frolicking Dinosaurs
07-25-2006, 14:23
Hey FD, will please come back to the Israel/Lebanon thread and answer our question.................Done....

Panzer1
07-25-2006, 14:46
It ain't right to force a 12 year old to be a vegan or a christian.

Children tipically belong to the same religion as their parents, at least until they become old enough to decide for themselves.

If the parents are vegan, then I don't see any problem with the child be vegan. I don't think it would work if everyone in a household was vegan except one child.

12 year old children can't make these decisions for themselves. When you are only 12 years old your parents make religion and dietary decisions for you. That's what it means to be a parent.

When they grow up let them do whatever they want. But at 12 your under your parents control.

Panzer

cannonball
07-25-2006, 14:46
It ain't right to force a 12 year old to be a vegan or a christian.


Translation: the fast track to becoming a looser parent is to not instill values in them nor provide direction in thier lifes. You can ignore your kids as long as you say let them make thier own choices. Besides its politically correct and you don't have to be bothered by a 12 year old bitch.


disclaimer, so I don't have to rebuttle later down the thread- Mrs. cannonball have 2 adopted children plus another child who is special needs.

Heater
07-25-2006, 14:48
Bill Erwin?...Hmmmm...Is'nt he the guy over in Ozzyland who say's "Crikey, what a NAUGHTY little snake!" and "danger!!! danger!!!" a lot?. ;)

Hey, hey hey now.... waitaminuite...

No joking around on serious issues allowed here, buddy! :p

Somebody might take it wrong and get their skivvies ah...hawl in a twist.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

LOL!

corentin
07-25-2006, 14:54
Since there are a lot of therapies out there that are quite controversial for troubled kids (rebirthing to name one) , it doesn't make sense that people would get ticked off about a little praying.
Praying over someone is cultish ? I've had patients ask to be prayed over/prayed with from a multitude of religions and also ones that weren't religious at all. Does this mean they were cult members?
I am now ticked to find out my parents were violating my rights by making me eat lima beans and drink my milk. Also , they didn't let me play in traffic. I think I'll sue.

the goat
07-25-2006, 14:57
I am now ticked to find out my parents were violating my rights by making me eat lima beans and drink my milk.

i agree with the spirit of your post, but vegans don't drink milk.:)

Heater
07-25-2006, 15:01
i agree with the spirit of your post, but vegans don't drink milk.:)

..or eat honey.... or use yeast, wear leather etc...

I was one. I was hardcore. :D

One Leg
07-25-2006, 15:05
Having spent a weekend with Bill & Debra Irwin in July 2004, I can share a couple of things with you:

A: He does have a reader on his home computer. He powers up his computer, pulls up his email, and the reader goes to town at a rate of some 200 words per minute. I don't see how he keeps up with it, it's amazing.

B: He attends a non-denominational-type church that's Charasmatic/Penticostal in their style of worship.

I don't see how the state could place the child, then yank her away. It would seem to me that the one thing a system child needs more than anything else is stability. And to place a child, then take her back exhibits nothing but instability.

The Irwins are good people, albeit a little different from myself with regard to diet. (I grabbed a burger when we went into town.)

-Scott

Two Speed
07-25-2006, 15:06
..or eat honey.... or use yeast, wear leather etc...

I was one. I was hardcore. :DOK, I'll bite. Why would using yeast be a problem? We're worried about microbes or something?

Heater
07-25-2006, 18:06
OK, I'll bite. Why would using yeast be a problem? We're worried about microbes or something?

I was never that hardcore but, yes... some do.

Sly
07-25-2006, 18:23
Originally Posted by L. Wolf
It ain't right to force a 12 year old to be a vegan or a christian.




Translation: the fast track to becoming a looser parent is to not instill values in them nor provide direction in thier lifes. You can ignore your kids as long as you say let them make thier own choices. Besides its politically correct and you don't have to be bothered by a 12 year old bitch.


Lone Wolf politically correct? Now that's funny! I think the key word LW used is force.

SavageLlama
07-26-2006, 01:48
I read his book years ago and was fascinated. But I've always been curious how he didn't kill himself in areas like the Whites. Has anyone here ever hiked with him? Can he really not see anything?

Blue Jay
07-26-2006, 07:19
I read his book years ago and was fascinated. But I've always been curious how he didn't kill himself in areas like the Whites. Has anyone here ever hiked with him? Can he really not see anything?

He just fell on this dog a thousand times, it worked well for him. Not too good for the dog however, but who cares about that. I hiked with him for a day in MA, that was all I could take.

frieden
07-26-2006, 10:27
I encourage all thos who are members here and who support the Irwins in this situation, to write to the State of Maine and its Governor and let them know what you think!

That is an excellent idea. Anyone know who to write to? Name? Address?

Skyline
07-26-2006, 11:00
Kids love Oscar Meyer bologna sammiches and hot dogs.:D


Mark this day on the calendar! Something we can finally agree on!

Frolicking Dinosaurs
07-26-2006, 11:08
To contact Maine's senators and congressmen in Washington DC (http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/cgi-bin/newseek.cgi?site=ctc&state=me)
To contact Maine's governor (http://www.statelawyers.com/Governors/Governor_Detail.cfm?StateID=19)
To contact Maine's members of the statesenators (http://www.maine.gov/legis/senate/senators/index.htm)
To contact Maine's members of the state house of representives (http://janus.state.me.us/house/hbiolist.htm)

firefly
07-26-2006, 11:57
I think there are people out there who revere God and quietly live out their lives in love trying to help other people. And then there are people use religion for controll and power always sounding the alarm about what eveybody else is doing wrong. I am a Christian..I try to honor God with my life BUT I am appalled by the behavior I see from some of the religious right groups. I do not think I am the only person who feels this way in fact I think we are about to witness a tremendous backlash against this. Unfortunatly the people in the first group will suffer from some of this backlash. I do not know all the facts from Bills story but I wonder if some of his actions were misinterpeted by the agency. Just a thought...not a soapbox....

Skyline
07-26-2006, 14:09
What I know of Bill Irwin:

1) He is a very religious person, and his faith has gotten him through more than most of us will ever endure.

2) He does not coerce other people to live by the tenets of his faith, tho he will be happy to talk to anyone about it who wants to listen.

AFAIK, he could not--by any stretch of the imagination--be lumped in with the Religious Right fundamentalists who have taken over the GOP and have plans to take over what they don't already control in this nation.

the goat
07-26-2006, 14:17
AFAIK, he could not--by any stretch of the imagination--be lumped in with the Religious Right fundamentalists who have taken over the GOP and have plans to take over what they don't already control in this nation.

why do all roads lead to statements like this? don't get me wrong, i think it's funny, but even a thread a/b bill irwin gets linked to a GOP takeover? vast right wing conspiracies shouldn't occupy space in so many other aspects of life, which are completely unrelated, imho.

Skyline
07-26-2006, 14:42
why do all roads lead to statements like this? don't get me wrong, i think it's funny, but even a thread a/b bill irwin gets linked to a GOP takeover? vast right wing conspiracies shouldn't occupy space in so many other aspects of life, which are completely unrelated, imho.


I was simply expanding upon Firefly's post, and attempting to clarify this issue as it regards Bill Irwin, from what I know of him. It wasn't written in a vacuum. If you go back and read it, my post was rather supportive of Bill--I didn't want there to be any ambiguity about whether he should be considered in the same vein as Falwell, Dobson, Santorum, Allen, et al just because he does happen to be very religious.

Getting a bit touchy, aren't we?

the goat
07-26-2006, 14:55
Getting a bit touchy, aren't we?

not really, just trying to point out that it's getting kinda rediculous, but if you can't see that, my pointing it out won't do you any good either.

(that goes for you too firefly):D

Frolicking Dinosaurs
07-26-2006, 14:58
I was a social worker and have placed many children for adoption. What happens is a social worker meets approved family and determines that child and family might be a good match. SW goes to immediate supervisor who must concur that child and family are a good match. Then the regional supervisor must agree. Then, and only then, is a child placed. This is pretty much the universal practice in the US.

One of four things happened in The Irwins' case:<o></o>
the child requested the removal (unlikely as the Irwins would have been told this was the case) <o></o>
the child complained about diet and / or treatment to someone like a teacher, guidance counselor etc. (also unlikely as the Irwins would have been told the child complained)<o></o>
a local judge, a local foster care review board, the guardian ad litem or someone who reviewed the placement in Maine's state office felt treating the child's emotional problems with prayer was an ineffective treatment or one that could emotionally damage the child -and / or- that a vegan diet likely could not meet the nutritional needs of the child<o></o>
the state office fears a lawsuit down the road or bad press from allowing the child to remain with the Irwins due to their religious and dietary practices<o></o><o></o>I have seen some truly disgusting things happen when foster care review boards, local judges or guardian ad litems with an agenda and reviewers in state offices who haven't worked in the field for 20 yrs are allowed to override the judgment of the social workers who actually know the child and family.

A foster care review board is a board made up of people from the community. Most are hand picked by the juvenile judge and it is a very political <o></o>system.

A guardian ad litem is an attorney appointed to represent the best interest of the child to the judge. Every foster child has a guardian ad litem and some are better than others. Some never talk with the children and have no idea what is going on. Others are very involved and dedicated. The Irwins should find out who Amanda's guardian ad litem is and make sure he or she knows what is going on. The guardian ad litem can file legal paperwork to stop actions they feel are not in the child's best interest.<o></o>
<o></o>

Skyline
07-26-2006, 15:48
not really, just trying to point out that it's getting kinda rediculous, but if you can't see that, my pointing it out won't do you any good either.

(that goes for you too firefly):D


Actually, I think the antics of the Christian AND Muslim Fundamentalists need to be pointed out at EVERY opportunity so we never take our eyes off them. After all, they behave as if their Gods are telling them to take over all of our lives and they take every opportunity to do so.

Tell you what, next November when the Valley Family Forum has their annual "Unveiling" you attend with me, then tell me if these aren't some scary folks with their hands deep in the pockets of real power in Virginia. These very pious zealots unveil their legislative agenda for the coming year, accompanied by their legal teams and all the VA Delegates and Senators who pander to them. They end their evening of fun with a laying-on-of-hands ceremony that our elected officials eagerly participate in. I went last year, and felt like a Jew in a roomful of Nazis.

Lone Wolf
07-26-2006, 15:52
Teletubbies are gay. Falwell says so.

mingo
07-26-2006, 15:55
good point, skyline. regarding bill irwin, i don't know the facts, of course, but i wouldn't imagine the state would take away a hard-to-place kid without good reason. mayhaps they detected an excessive amount of jesus mumbo-jumbo in the home. you know, some of these freaks don't believe in medicine and would let a child die before seeking medical assistance.

Skyline
07-26-2006, 15:59
Teletubbies are gay. Falwell says so.


Damn Wolf, two in one day!

Actually, it's Falwell is gay, the Teletubbies say so.

Skyline
07-26-2006, 16:04
good point, skyline. regarding bill irwin, i don't know the facts, of course, but i wouldn't imagine the state would take away a hard-to-place kid without good reason. mayhaps they detected an excessive amount of jesus mumbo-jumbo in the home. you know, some of these freaks don't believe in medicine and would let a child die before seeking medical assistance.


That stuff happens, unfortunately, but I can't imagine Bill or his wife doing that. Hopefully a quick investigation will clear any doubt about that up, if there is any doubt.

Sly
07-26-2006, 17:32
It is Bill's duty as a citizen of the world to raise offspring and teach them values that can be passed on to other generations.

Duty as a citizen of the world? Sorry, I must have missed that class.


Sly, it all boils down to a simple math equation, if you don't like it then you need two offspring (preferrably women) to spread values opposite those of Bill...but that means I would have to have four, so don't bother.

If I don't like what? As far as how Bill raises his kids I could care less.


Kudos to your friend Hickory, and completing his seciton hike. Are you questioning Bill's blindness because you don't think your friend is blind or did your friend do some blue blazing and now your questioning the validity of Bill's hike?:confused:

No I'm not questioning his blindness, I'm asking about his degree of blindness. I raised the point because his website said he's the only blind person to hike the AT. Well, my friend who's legally blind has also hiked the AT. Whether he or Bill missed any white blazes isn't my concern.

TOW
07-26-2006, 17:50
That is an excellent idea. Anyone know who to write to? Name? Address?
[email protected]

i already wrote him a letter myself........

TOW
07-26-2006, 17:53
What I know of Bill Irwin:

1) He is a very religious person, and his faith has gotten him through more than most of us will ever endure.

2) He does not coerce other people to live by the tenets of his faith, tho he will be happy to talk to anyone about it who wants to listen.

AFAIK, he could not--by any stretch of the imagination--be lumped in with the Religious Right fundamentalists who have taken over the GOP and have plans to take over what they don't already control in this nation.

i totally agree............................

TOW
07-26-2006, 17:58
good point, skyline. regarding bill irwin, i don't know the facts, of course, but i wouldn't imagine the state would take away a hard-to-place kid without good reason. mayhaps they detected an excessive amount of jesus mumbo-jumbo in the home. you know, some of these freaks don't believe in medicine and would let a child die before seeking medical assistance.are you referring that bill irwin is a freak?

Sly
07-26-2006, 18:11
Originally Posted by Sly
Since this is only Bill's view, I'll wait to pass judgement, but his efforts to calm the girl during a "temper tantrum" sounds cultish to me.



oh horsey manure......

Why, you think praying over someone having a temper tantrum is going to calm them? What's next exorcism?

Frolicking Dinosaurs
07-26-2006, 18:20
Depending on the cause of the tantrums, there could be several reasons that praying over the child would work. One is she is getting attention, another is prayer is a defocusing activity that removes her from the thought process that lead to a tantrum, third is things tend to work when the child believes it will work (remember kissing boo-boo's) and fourth (though not PC) is that maybe God answers prayer.

Sly
07-26-2006, 18:49
Depending on the cause of the tantrums, there could be several reasons that praying over the child would work. One is she is getting attention, another is prayer is a defocusing activity that removes her from the thought process that lead to a tantrum, third is things tend to work when the child believes it will work (remember kissing boo-boo's) and fourth (though not PC) is that maybe God answers prayer.

Well, since she was removed from the home I can only assume things weren't working. I don't doubt Bill's concern, just his methods. What works for oneself usaully doesn't work for another. It's similar to when a women gets a man that's different than her and tries to change him to her way of thinking.

Skidsteer
07-26-2006, 18:50
Originally Posted by Sly
Since this is only Bill's view, I'll wait to pass judgement, but his efforts to calm the girl during a "temper tantrum" sounds cultish to me.




Why, you think praying over someone having a temper tantrum is going to calm them? What's next exorcism?

If done silently it's a good excuse for a parent to shut up. Which may help the situation in and of itself. :D

Nightwalker
07-26-2006, 20:16
No I'm not questioning his blindness, I'm asking about his degree of blindness. I raised the point because his website said he's the only blind person to hike the AT. Well, my friend who's legally blind has also hiked the AT. Whether he or Bill missed any white blazes isn't my concern.
A guy named Happy Feet hiked with me in '05. He had to hold maps and guides about two inches from his face to read them. He could make out the white blazes and the trail outline as well. He saw light and some patterns, but was at about 20/270 sight wise. Blind enough.

bosborne
07-26-2006, 21:44
[QUOTE=Sly]How blind is Bill if he can pour OJ to hikers at his ministry feast in Maine and have email correspondence with the Only Wanderer?

Hard to know how to reply to a remark this ignorant. Not stupid necessarily but ignorant, as in "not knowing". Perhaps this was a joke.

Blind people, and by that I mean people with no vision at all, feed themselves and pour drinks into their own glasses or the glasses of other. Yes! They can also use computers, as well as sighted people. Amazing! I'm sure my son at 8, blind from birth, is far better on the computer than you were at his age. Less ignorant now?

the goat
07-26-2006, 21:53
Tell you what, next November when the Valley Family Forum has their annual "Unveiling" you attend with me, then tell me if these aren't some scary folks with their hands deep in the pockets of real power in Virginia. These very pious zealots unveil their legislative agenda for the coming year, accompanied by their legal teams and all the VA Delegates and Senators who pander to them. They end their evening of fun with a laying-on-of-hands ceremony that our elected officials eagerly participate in. I went last year, and felt like a Jew in a roomful of Nazis.

wow that's unfortunate. admittedly, i've no knowledge of the "valley family forum", but i can surmise from your analogy that they're a motley crew indeed, as you were afraid for your life & the full-scale genocide of those like you.:rolleyes:

why would someone who's so religion-phobic as yourself even attend such and event?:confused:

Blissful
07-26-2006, 22:37
and fourth (though not PC) is that maybe God answers prayer.

Oh yeah....!

That's enough to scare anybody!

'Cause that means God may...uh...actually EXIST." (gulp)

:sun

At any rate - Hurray for Bill Irwin. He's the ultimate hero of determination and one of main reasons I believe I can do the whole AT in 2007.

Sly
07-26-2006, 23:03
Hard to know how to reply to a remark this ignorant. Not stupid necessarily but ignorant, as in "not knowing". Perhaps this was a joke.

No it's not a joke, I was asking a question about the degree of his blindness. There's blind and there's blind, there's legally blind. I'm blind in one eye, but I can see shadows.

It's my own opinion but sometimes it just bothers me when someone claims to be the only or in some cases the 1st to do a hike when it's not necessarily so. everyone hikes a trail for their own reasons, but no one is more special than another. I'd admire Bill for hiking the trail and I realize he's an incentive to other potential thru-hikers, especially with handicaps, but it doesn't mean I can't ask questions.

Skyline
07-26-2006, 23:43
wow that's unfortunate. admittedly, i've no knowledge of the "valley family forum", but i can surmise from your analogy that they're a motley crew indeed, as you were afraid for your life & the full-scale genocide of those like you.:rolleyes:

why would someone who's so religion-phobic as yourself even attend such and event?:confused:


I attended because I'd heard of these people, learned about the Unveiling, and had a need to see for myself who or what they were all about. It was a public meeting held in a non-governmental setting, with no restrictions on who could attend. I did not go alone. I guess I mainly went so as to find out what the opponents of equality and freedom for all were up to.

It will supposedly happen again this November. They got most of their agenda for '06 passed, but will undoubtedly keep coming back for more until Virginia is even more of a theocracy.

Yes, I do believe a minority in the room had (have) a Hitler-like Final Solution for people they feel are heathens, and are prepared to take action themselves. And a majority in the room obviously support hateful political actions, possibly without violence, that harken back to the days of Jim Crow--just with different targets for their vitriol.

Motley crew? They were wearing their Sunday Best, and oh so polite while making plans for the 2006 Virginia Legislative Session. They work the system very well, and have a lot of Republican friends in high places--some of whom were also present.

Join me this November to see for yourself if you have any doubts. In the meantime, check out their website: http://www.valleyfamilyforum.org/php/index.php?c=welcome&f=2 . I'd be interested to hear how much of their agenda you agree or disagree with. I don't quarrel with their right to organize for what they believe in, but I am adamantly opposed to about 80% of what they believe in and the fact that they want to force the rest of us to live by their rules.

One Leg
07-27-2006, 00:57
I'd admire Bill for hiking the trail and I realize he's an incentive to other potential thru-hikers, especially with handicaps, but it doesn't mean I can't ask questions.

What difference does it make if he's blind or legally blind? I think you're splitting hairs and forgetting the core of what he did.

As to the degree of his blindness, he's missing one eye and has the same degenerative disease in the remaining eye that's robbed him of what remaining/residual sight that he had.

He uses a guide dog.. He uses a voice reader for his computer... The dude's blind in my book..

I have an idea for you: Instead of asking others to answer your question, why not go straight to the person himself and seek your answers? His info's posted on his website:

Email: [email protected]
Phone: (207) 564-6922

Contact him, and put the matter to rest.

Sly
07-27-2006, 01:30
So you want me to call him and post his reply here? Yeah I can do that... give me a day or two.

MedicineMan
07-27-2006, 03:14
you see the man in question 'drive' while in Damascus?

TOW
07-27-2006, 08:11
Originally Posted by Sly
Since this is only Bill's view, I'll wait to pass judgement, but his efforts to calm the girl during a "temper tantrum" sounds cultish to me.




Why, you think praying over someone having a temper tantrum is going to calm them? What's next exorcism?
If he's got to go that far, yes...........

This is how I see it, if I believe in God thru Jesus Christ, then I believe in His powers too........I mean if Jesus can calm a storm, or walk on water, then surely He can calm a child..........

I don't know what you believe sly, and this next statement is not directed to you, that is unless you believe in the Almighty God of the Bible.........."But too many Christians profess the belief in God thru Jesus Christ, but deny the power thereof........."

Bill Irwin certainly knows what he believes............

TOW
07-27-2006, 08:12
Depending on the cause of the tantrums, there could be several reasons that praying over the child would work. One is she is getting attention, another is prayer is a defocusing activity that removes her from the thought process that lead to a tantrum, third is things tend to work when the child believes it will work (remember kissing boo-boo's) and fourth (though not PC) is that maybe God answers prayer.yes, yes, yes, especially the last two statements............

Lone Wolf
07-27-2006, 08:13
I always make JC turn my nasty pond water into a fine Merlot when I'm hiking.:)

TOW
07-27-2006, 08:15
Well, since she was removed from the home I can only assume things weren't working. I don't doubt Bill's concern, just his methods. What works for oneself usaully doesn't work for another. It's similar to when a women gets a man that's different than her and tries to change him to her way of thinking.since your assuming, i reckon your assuming that you know what the final outcome will be..........i just think i'll wait around and hear it directly from bill and debra..............

TOW
07-27-2006, 08:18
[quote=Sly]How blind is Bill if he can pour OJ to hikers at his ministry feast in Maine and have email correspondence with the Only Wanderer?

Hard to know how to reply to a remark this ignorant. Not stupid necessarily but ignorant, as in "not knowing". Perhaps this was a joke.

Blind people, and by that I mean people with no vision at all, feed themselves and pour drinks into their own glasses or the glasses of other. Yes! They can also use computers, as well as sighted people. Amazing! I'm sure my son at 8, blind from birth, is far better on the computer than you were at his age. Less ignorant now?you know what baffles me with people who are totally blind is just how sensitive their hands actually are, they can tell the difference between a dollar bill and a hundred dollar bill........

Lone Wolf
07-27-2006, 08:20
[quote=bosborne]you know what baffles me with people who are totally blind is just how sensitive their hands actually are, they can tell the difference between a dollar bill and a hundred dollar bill........
Now THAT'S BS!:D

TOW
07-27-2006, 08:20
wow that's unfortunate. admittedly, i've no knowledge of the "valley family forum", but i can surmise from your analogy that they're a motley crew indeed, as you were afraid for your life & the full-scale genocide of those like you.:rolleyes:

why would someone who's so religion-phobic as yourself even attend such and event?:confused:good point................:clap

TOW
07-27-2006, 08:22
No it's not a joke, I was asking a question about the degree of his blindness. There's blind and there's blind, there's legally blind. I'm blind in one eye, but I can see shadows.

It's my own opinion but sometimes it just bothers me when someone claims to be the only or in some cases the 1st to do a hike when it's not necessarily so. everyone hikes a trail for their own reasons, but no one is more special than another. I'd admire Bill for hiking the trail and I realize he's an incentive to other potential thru-hikers, especially with handicaps, but it doesn't mean I can't ask questions.well he's certainly the first to be quoted doing the entire trail, if there were others before him, why weren't they recognized............?

Lone Wolf
07-27-2006, 08:24
well he's certainly the first to be quoted doing the entire trail, if there were others before him, why weren't they recognized............?
Because they weren't looking for fame and fortune?

TOW
07-27-2006, 08:29
Motley crew? They were wearing their Sunday Best, and oh so polite while making plans for the 2006 Virginia Legislative Session. They work the system very well, and have a lot of Republican friends in high places--some of whom were also present.

Join me this November to see for yourself if you have any doubts. In the meantime, check out their website: http://www.valleyfamilyforum.org/php/index.php?c=welcome&f=2 . I'd be interested to hear how much of their agenda you agree or disagree with. I don't quarrel with their right to organize for what they believe in, but I am adamantly opposed to about 80% of what they believe in and the fact that they want to force the rest of us to live by their rules.who doesn't have an agenda to work the system very well for their own cause?

i'm going to attempt to attend that meeting, so PM me witth the details.....

furthermore, for too long christains heve been getting darwinism shoved down there throats in the public shool system..........

TOW
07-27-2006, 08:37
I always make JC turn my nasty pond water into a fine Merlot when I'm hiking.:)Just one of these days in the very near future, I hope that God gives you that miraculous insight that you are going to need to bring you to your knees............When that time comes, and I truly believe it is going to, you will have a choice to either acknowledge Him as He is or flatly deny Him............I should hope though, no matter the decision that you make when the time arises, that at least you will have no doubt that you have been drinking someones dirty pond water that they have labled as Merlot..................

TOW
07-27-2006, 08:41
[quote=The Only Wanderer]
Now THAT'S BS!:Dno! it's absolutely true to my knowledge? i mean there was an old man i knew as a child who was totally blind.....he could count money, write letters on his typewriter and even drove his brothers old allis chambers tractor on their farm...........

TOW
07-27-2006, 08:48
Because they weren't looking for fame and fortune?was bill? i mean, sure he told a few people and probably got printed up in his local paper, but it was others who made him famous and eventually well to do........every year there are countless people looking to be recognized for doing something that is an awesome thing to do, i don't have a bit of a problem with them.............besides it was lynn weldon who helped boost bill's fame along..........furthermore, what is wrong with a christian man or woman having a good size bankroll in their pocket..........?

Lone Wolf
07-27-2006, 09:04
Just one of these days in the very near future, I hope that God gives you that miraculous insight that you are going to need to bring you to your knees............When that time comes, and I truly believe it is going to, you will have a choice to either acknowledge Him as He is or flatly deny Him............I should hope though, no matter the decision that you make when the time arises, that at least you will have no doubt that you have been drinking someones dirty pond water that they have labled as Merlot..................
You're preaching. Not a good thing to do to. Turns people way off. Not that I would listen anyway. I acknowledge Me.:)

TOW
07-27-2006, 09:19
You're preaching. Not a good thing to do to. Turns people way off. Not that I would listen anyway. I acknowledge Me.:)yeah, i know i'm preaching.........on the other hand if you make a comment such as the one you made, then you opened up the door and invited me in with my opinion..................;)

fiddlehead
07-27-2006, 09:40
It's an age old argument and has caused more people to die than any other in the history of the world!

Skyline
07-27-2006, 10:28
who doesn't have an agenda to work the system very well for their own cause?

i'm going to attempt to attend that meeting, so PM me witth the details.....

furthermore, for too long christains heve been getting darwinism shoved down there throats in the public shool system..........


It's the cause itself I have a BIG problem with.

There are people of this ilk, and I'm pretty sure a few in the Valley Family Forum, who believe God speaks to them and tells them to murder doctors who perform abortions; who believe and are willing to work for homosexuality being a capital offense; who want to delete from our Constitution any pretense that we are still a nation where church and state are separate; who want all taxpayers to pay for the religious indoctrination of their kids and everyone else's kids; who want to dictate what you can legally see on TV, at the movies, hear on the radio or read; and who believe only those who advocate their narrow views should be entitled to "free" speech.

I do not have a date, time, or place for the 2006 Unveiling yet. In past years it has been held a couple weeks after the November General Election in the community room of a senior citizen center in Bridgewater, VA...which is in the central Shenandoah Valley not far off I-81. They will probably post details when ready on the website I linked to. Hope to see you there. I will be the one NOT wearing his Sunday Best.

As for "Christians" having Darwinism forced upon them in public schools--the answer is simple. Don't send your kids to public schools. But pay for alternative schooling yourself, and make sure whatever alternative you choose is able to teach the basics well enough that the attendees can pass standardized tests.

Skyline
07-27-2006, 10:36
was bill? i mean, sure he told a few people and probably got printed up in his local paper, but it was others who made him famous and eventually well to do........every year there are countless people looking to be recognized for doing something that is an awesome thing to do, i don't have a bit of a problem with them.............besides it was lynn weldon who helped boost bill's fame along..........furthermore, what is wrong with a christian man or woman having a good size bankroll in their pocket..........?


You are mostly correct, I think. I have not read or heard anything that would indicate Bill Irwin sought publicity during his hike, tho he responded to requests for interviews. Sorta like Earl did in '98. But let's be real--a blind man, or a 79-year-old man who was the thru-hiking pioneer, hiking the AT will attract plenty of attention.

However, after his hike, Bill parlayed his fame into a ministry for which he said God called him. So long as it's a true Christian ministry, not a political organization that wants to force its dogma on everyone else, nothing wrong with that.

I still have a problem believing Bill or his wife would intentionally endanger a child in the name of religion. Hope they get to the bottom of this.

StarLyte
07-27-2006, 10:40
Great posts Skyline.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
07-27-2006, 10:41
Skyline has a point. Passing laws based solely on religious beliefs is rarely a good idea.

Re: teaching Big Bang, Darwin's theory, Creationism and / or Intelligent Design theories in public schools -- I think it should be handle the way many school systems handle sex ed. They send a note home and parents must sign that they allow their child to attend. Personally, I would want my child to hear all the theories and follow up at home with what I believed on the subject and why. I would also carefully listen to my child and encourage him/her to ask questions.

mingo
07-27-2006, 11:02
Skyline has a point. Passing laws based solely on religious beliefs is rarely a good idea.

Re: teaching Big Bang, Darwin's theory, Creationism and / or Intelligent Design theories in public schools -- I think it should be handle the way many school systems handle sex ed. They send a note home and parents must sign that they allow their child to attend. Personally, I would want my child to hear all the theories and follow up at home with what I believed on the subject and why. I would also carefully listen to my child and encourage him/her to ask questions.

evolution and creationism aren't theories to be given equal treatment in the public classroom. one is science and the other is religion. if you don't want your children to learn about evolution but would prefer them to remain ignorant, then send them to a church school or home-school them.

TOW
07-27-2006, 13:50
You are mostly correct, I think. I have not read or heard anything that would indicate Bill Irwin sought publicity during his hike, tho he responded to requests for interviews. Sorta like Earl did in '98. But let's be real--a blind man, or a 79-year-old man who was the thru-hiking pioneer, hiking the AT will attract plenty of attention.

However, after his hike, Bill parlayed his fame into a ministry for which he said God called him. So long as it's a true Christian ministry, not a political organization that wants to force its dogma on everyone else, nothing wrong with that.

I still have a problem believing Bill or his wife would intentionally endanger a child in the name of religion. Hope they get to the bottom of this.i like your point of view on this subject...........

Blissful
07-27-2006, 18:35
I always make JC turn my nasty pond water into a fine Merlot when I'm hiking.:)

Wow - now that is a statement of faith!

There is hope for L. Wolf yet. he he he :D

Blissful
07-27-2006, 18:42
if you don't want your children to learn about evolution but would prefer them to remain ignorant, then send them to a church school or home-school them.

Guess the subject of this forum has changed - but I must beg politely to differ. My child is not ignorant because I home schooled him. In fact, the evolution arguments were presented in his teaching as well as creationism, and he used his God-given ability to rationalize it out for himself. When he gets back from the youth conservation corp program this summer, I'll let him answer for himself.

Let's go back to the heroics of Bill Irwin and not get into trashing other ways of education.

fiddlehead
07-27-2006, 20:17
There was a post on this thread back a few pages where someone asked LoneWolf if he saw Bill Irwin driving a car? I'd like to hear more about that!
Does anyone know if this is true?

TOW
07-27-2006, 21:06
There was a post on this thread back a few pages where someone asked LoneWolf if he saw Bill Irwin driving a car? I'd like to hear more about that!
Does anyone know if this is true?bill drives everyday in maine, he has one them new talking cars..............