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Rain
07-27-2006, 16:38
Behavioral Issues and Rehabilitation.

Many complaints that are made of dogs and their owners are justified, sadly. Nobody should have to take a guarded posture over their food at camp when a dog is near. Nor should anyone have to experience an aggressive dog confronting them just for doing what they love, hiking. Discomfort, annoyance, and fear are only a few of the feelings expressed (or not so expressed) of the people that are sometimes involved in these cases. So my aim is for those of us with hiking dog experience and those just looking for advice can come together and discuss our varied ways of discouraging unwanted behaviors of the trail. If anyone would like to put their two cents in on problem behaviors that they have had to deal with or are dealing with currently, please jump right in.

Aggression (its many forms), Barking/Howling, Begging, Separation Anxiety, Pulling, Kleptomania, etc etc.

Nearly eight months ago I adopted a stray dog. My first impression of him was wonderful. He was friendly and playful. Didn't bark, not in the least. Handsome to boot! Over all he seemed like an overgrown puppy. But like all first impressions, they are rarely accurate. My hopes of making him my hiking partner have been severely damaged. Loki turned out to be dog aggressive. Since then I've taken him to work everyday. He joins in on all my classes as my demo dog. We make a good team at work. His rehabilitation is progressing slowly, but steadily. He still focuses way to intently on new dogs, the hackles still go up, but we've managed to calm him enough were he doesn't lunge or bark. Hard work, that. Loki is my first ever experience with aggression, so any additional help with this issue would be greatly appreciated. His separation anxiety is one issue that, sadly, has seen little to no improvement. Help!!!

He loves the outdoors, loves hiking. He even attempts to put his pack halfway on in front of me when he wants to go out. The dog backpack and gentle leader combo also seems to tranform him into a whole new dog. When they are on, he has a job, something to do, and he enjoys it.

SGT Rock, Frieden, Alligator, and everyone else involved in creating this forum have my deepest thanks. Thank you.

Phreak
07-27-2006, 16:43
Hey Rain,
I'm a dog trainer and would be happy to help you with your dog issues. Separation Anxiety and Aggression are typically easy issues to correct, tho they can take longer than most people would prefer. You can contact me at brian (at) hikes247 (dot) com.

Alligator
07-27-2006, 17:16
It was Mowgli's idea. Aggression toward's other dogs was the only majorly bad behavior my dog had and I didn't know how to correct it. I tried desensitizing her with my friend's dogs and my family's dogs, but I never saw any results. It always went this way. My dog meets other dog, my house, the other dog's house, neutral territory. A little sniffing, then pretty much ignoring the other dog. Then my dog would start watching the other dog. The lip curl would show, some teeth, and then the fight would start. Australian shepherd she was. I think she could have been a breeder dog we got her as a stray. We suspected maybe poor socialization as a puppy.

I prevented it by keeping her on leash and never letting her get near other dogs, but it sounds like formal training may be the answer.

Skidsteer
07-27-2006, 18:19
Australian shepherd she was. I think she could have been a breeder dog we got her as a stray. We suspected maybe poor socialization as a puppy.

That's an unusual trait for an Aussie. I've had three and they'd find a way to get along with Cujo himself.

plydem
07-28-2006, 09:02
Behavioral Issues and Rehabilitation.

.... He still focuses way to intently on new dogs, the hackles still go up, but we've managed to calm him enough were he doesn't lunge or bark. Hard work, that. Loki is my first ever experience with aggression, so any additional help with this issue would be greatly appreciated. His separation anxiety is one issue that, sadly, has seen little to no improvement. Help!!!

He loves the outdoors, loves hiking. He even attempts to put his pack halfway on in front of me when he wants to go out. The dog backpack and gentle leader combo also seems to tranform him into a whole new dog. When they are on, he has a job, something to do, and he enjoys it.


While Phreak may be right and continued training could help correct the situation, it may not be enough. Our dog was abused for the first year of his life and has horrible fear agression. Sounds like a similar situation as you - for the first few weeks, he was nervous but very sweet. Once he got somewhat comfortable with us, we noticed him change. When out on walks, he would start to bark and lunge at people and other dogs if he saw them 200 yards away. He also bit one of our neighbors when he came up very quickly towards us and put his hand over his head to pet him. That was the turning point for us.

We went through two years of training and seeing behaviorists and reading books (even considering having him euthanized briefly) before we finally found Dr. Nicholas Dodman at Tufts University in Massachusetts. After meeting and evaluating Schultz (in-person and based on a detailed written description we sent prior to the appointment as well as blood tests for thyroid levels), Dr. Dodman prescribed a generic form of Prozac. Now we can get him in a sit-stay and strange people can pass within ten feet with no issue. Unfortunately, he is still afraid of dogs and will bark and lunge agressively - no amount of training or Prozac will change that.

Most vets don't know much about this type of treatment. Dr. Dodman did a study on agressive dogs and categorized the various forms of agression. He then put a control group on Prozac and determined that 80% of these dogs had their agression significantly reduced after being on Prozac. He also helps people with separation anxiety and other similar issues. We had a dog at our shelter who had severe separation anxiety (did about $4000 in damage to the families home before they finally came to us). He eventually went to Dr. Dodman and was prescribed Prozac. He's in a new home and has had no problems for a year.

So, to wrap up this really long post, continue your training but maybe have your vet check your dog's thyroid levels and check out Dr. Dodman. He has also written many books - some of which may be very helpful for you. Good luck!

frieden
07-28-2006, 10:08
Unfortunately, he is still afraid of dogs and will bark and lunge agressively - no amount of training or Prozac will change that.

I really have to disagree with this one. A chemical drug is not going to solve the problem, unless it is a chemical imbalance. Chemicals will not fix a behavior problem, but they might control it for a short time...and they might not. The side effects are not worth it.

Although dogs are great family members, they are not human (thank God), which is probably why they make such great family members. It isn't fair to treat them as humans do eachother (it isn't fair how some humans treat eachother either, but that's a separate issue). Dogs may not be "wild" anymore, but they still long for the pack. You have to understand pack behavior (pack, meaning group, not the one with the hip belt).

I have never owned an aggressive dog, but I ran a kennel for a few years, and we got aggressive dogs all the time. If a dog exhibits a behavior you don't want, you let them know immediately that you won't tolerate it......and I mean you jerk their chain, bark "nein!!!!", and back them up (don't hit them). You are bigger than your dog. Walk fast through them, while all puffed up. It forces them to lose their aggressive stance towards you, in order to get out of your way. Then, ignore them. No matter how much they nudge you to say they were sorrry, ignore them (that doesn't mean push them away). Act like they don't even exist. After about 30 minutes, watch for some good behavior, like laying quietly, and love on them like crazy. They need to understand that they are not bad, the behavior is bad. Be consistant, and immediate. Don't tolerate even a little show of aggression. Depending on the breed of dog, you may want to use a prong collar (the one that is a choke chain hybrid, so it will snap and release immediately).

If the dog is so bad that he goes after you, punch him in the nose. I don't care how big the dog is, if you punch him in the nose, he'll drop like a stone. This is a self-defense measure, if your life is in danger, not a training tool.

This takes time. Ed and I are still working through that incident with that dog-aggressive service dog. If anyone missed it, Ed and I were behind the counter at the register, and a guy came behind the counter with his dog-aggressive service dog. This dog was about 2 feet from us, barking wildly, and trying to attack us. Ed has been defensive and jumpy ever since. We cannot afford to lose our job, and they are just looking for excuses to get us out of there, so I have to be tougher on Ed than I'd like. Athough they like Ed at work, the store is now seen as animal friendly, and it's turning into a friggin' zoo. The supervisors don't know the ADA law, and are too low on the pay scale to have a business degree, so we are forced to work in a hostile environment (only 1 month, 7 days, 00 hours, 19 minutes, and 21 seconds left, before we're outta here).

However, I've also been able to use this for training. Luckily, he still isn't defensive of people, etc., but he was trying to "defend" the places we were in - like the office, store, especially the register area, and the house. He has learned that when he behaves that way, he gets a swift repremand (one fast jerk on the leash, "nein", and a "plotz" - a down/stay), even if we are home - unless the person is in our yard, driveway, or walkway to the front door. Then, he gets a "good boy!" and a treat (while the person at the front door is impatiently waiting). Training comes first; people can wait! I won't even tolerate a deep throat woof, or a silent aggressive stance. Also, and this is very important to dog-trail-hikers, I do not let him protect the tent. It is the house ONLY! I know my dog, and I know that if someone started attacking me, he would throw training to the wind, and protect me at all costs. We do everything together; we're attached to the hip (literally). I know he loves me, and I make sure he knows I love him. Because of this, I don't need him to protect the area we are in everywhere we go, and we are approachable (which is extremely important for a service dog). Ed loves people, and he gets really mopey when people don't like him, which is rare. I want him to be happy, so I make sure that he behaves in a way that makes people want to love on him. Exception: please do not pet him, when he has his town vest on, which has a sign "Working Dog Do Not Pet".

In short (pun intended), 1. you have to be the alpha dog in the pack, and 2. your dog has to trust you. Your dog will not let you take the lead, if he cannot trust that you are capable. The need to survive is an instinct in all of us. Drugs do not accomplish 1 or 2.

plydem
07-28-2006, 10:59
I started to write a long reply to Frieden and changed my mind. I agree with some of what he says and want to point out that the reason my dog is on Prozac is it isn't just a behavior problem. He has a chemical imbalance and was not comfortable in his own skin prior to taking the drugs. This after two years of desensitization and obedience training. I only provided the information so that if Rain wanted to consult with a behaviorist or read some very good literature on dog agression he knew a good source. Dr. Dodman is an amazing man and he has helped my dog lead a somewhat normal life. In fact, he basically saved my dogs life.

I don't think it is wrong to provide appropriate medication - I'm no Tom Cruise. Anyway, take the information or leave it. It all depends on the individual dog and Rain's dog may just need more desensitization training.

frieden
07-28-2006, 11:50
I started to write a long reply to Frieden and changed my mind. I agree with some of what he says and want to point out that the reason my dog is on Prozac is it isn't just a behavior problem. He has a chemical imbalance and was not comfortable in his own skin prior to taking the drugs.

Yes, a chemical imbalance is different.


I don't think it is wrong to provide appropriate medication - I'm no Tom Cruise.

Hahahaha! :banana Good one!

Rain
07-29-2006, 08:17
Thanks for all the great responses. Frieden, ...wow. =)

I'm still relatively new to dog training, especially dog behavior modification, so whatever sources of information that I can get my hands on helps. Its ever the ongoing process, isn't it?

Loki: Labrador Retriever (black), male, 60lbs, 18 months (approx.). All I know for sure about his history is that he was found wandering the streets of downtown Baltimore, with no shred of identification. No one claimed him. My brother's boss took him in and then gave him to me after I had a good look at him. He pulled on too many heart strings, I suppose. Go ahead, call me a pushover. =)

Anyways, I try not to 'guess' his history before now. I really don't see what good it would do. The first week gave me a few ideas, but they have mostly faded away. The first night he vomited (sensitive stomach) and what he did following shocked me a bit. He found the nearest corner, with a table, and hid. I found that the closer I got to him the more stressed he became. He expected a harsh punishment... it really did shock me the severity of his reaction. So he very well could have been physically abused and he definitely was under socialized, but I don't let him slide for it. No BUTs allowed. New life, new home, new family. Past is past.

Aggression. If I ever want to return to the notion of hiking with him, this must go. Its odd though. Its not like the dog-aggressive service dog that went for Frieden and Ed. He has never shown teeth, snarling and the like. There has never been any question that his focus is on the dogs, not the owners. Lets run down a couple scenarios...

Scenario 1: We are taking our morning walk when I see a friend out taking her morning jog with her husky. They are about a block down the street. Coming our way. I look down at Loki, he sees them too. Dog, Focus. Sometimes I sigh at this point. I know whats coming. My friend and Charlie, the husky, are about 50 yards away now. I look down again. Dog, Intense Focus. Threat? His hackles are raised at this point, muscles are taut. We step just off the sidewalk and I put him into a sit. He does so reluctantly, straining his head around my leg to watch the oncomming dog's every move. My friend is close now, slowing down to stop for a greeting. They are very close now, I'm already speaking. I feel the tension evaporate at my side. I look down. Charlie? Play? Playplayplayplay!!! His hackles are down and he is relaxing (if you can call shifting from left to right in excitement relaxing).
Scenario 2: Just arrived at work. Work? Work! Fun! Taking a short potty walk before entering the building. Then a truck pulls up and out pops another Lab. Dog!!! New dog, one he hasn't had the pleasure of giving a thorough checking out. I brace myself as he tries to take off towards them. I quickly place him into a down/stay. His hackles are up all the way to the base of his tail. Looks and feels like he will spring at any moment. But he is quiet (does a mental victory dance at this). I'm down there with him, enforcing the down/stay. The truck driver is frowning, walking his dog as far away from me and mine as he can. I frown. I run Loki through a few commands, getting his attention on me. We make our way into work. He greets all his regular friends with enthusiasm, perfectly friendly enthusiasm. I shake my head in confusion.

I'm stressing. I know this. I shake myself out of it as best I can. I don't really care what kind of aggression this is, I just want it over with. He doesn't have to LIKE every dog out there (though he does AFTER he greets them) but he does have to act reasonably civil. When he is at work, people can't stop complimenting how calm, focused, and laid back he acts. Then a new dog will walk in and sometimes (not always) he will revert and lunge. The image shatters. We slowly take him and the newbies through an introduction and Loki files them in his memory and never gives them another scare.

I do have a number for a local behaviorist, but I hesitate in calling her.

Protective barks and growls are also something we are working on. Instead of doing what he used to do, he now nudges me awake with his nose when he hears something coming into or near the house. He near game me a heart attack the first night he heard my brother coming into the house late one night. I'm a light sleeper, okay, I'll wake just at the sound of my doorknob being turned. So I'm in a good dream when this awfully loud, deep throated growl/bark jolts me awake. While I lay tangled in my sheets, suddenly on the floor, I realized that was another thing that had to go. I know many people need and/or want guard dogs, but I am not one of those people. Its also my belief that if I were in any real danger, he would protect me. He is my ever present shadow. We go practically everywhere together.

Pronged collars and choke chains don't feel right to me. Sorry. Just can't get past that. But don't get me wrong, I don't just stand and watch a dog go out of control. Halters and head collars have grown on me. Though I don't think they would be appropriate for long distance hikes. Will just have to work on his leash manners more so I can walk him in harness/collar.

We have made some leaps and bounds in training for the Trail. He will 'Wait' (not to be confused with the Stay) when I give the hand signal. This helps when I need to clean him up a bit before letting him in the tent. Also when I need to check if the trail is safe to tread. Though he has his limits in that as soon as I go out of his sight he freaks and chases me down 'till he can watch me again. Seperation Anxiety at work there.

I agree with Frieden on the drug therapy. Don't get me wrong, Plydem, if its really required to correct an imbalance then thats all good. But I don't think that the side effects for any drug are worth it and there are always side effects. Many worse than the primary cause for taking the drug. Just my opinion on the matter. Thank you for the thyroid testing tip though. The ladies at Loki's blood bank also told me to check that out. It wouldn't hurt to at least check, I suppose.

Thanks again everyone. Loki and I need to get ready and head out to work. Have a wonderful weekend!

Creepy Uncle
08-05-2006, 15:44
All and all i think i have the perfect trail dog. she's about 15 pounds, full grown and loves everyone.. she just gets really riled up around people wrestling, throwing things and swimming. the first two are understandable, but swimming in a creek with a dog continually barking is about all i can bare. and i don't want that to detract from the experience of others. i've can get her to quiet down momentarily, but she really doesn't calm down until everyone is out of the water.

Any ideas that don't involve her staying at home during the summer? she pouts if i get home smelling like the woods and she didn't get to go.

MOWGLI
08-05-2006, 17:33
I started to write a long reply to Frieden and changed my mind. I agree with some of what he says....

Plydem, "he" ain't a he. Frieden is a member of the fairer sex. :sun I know 'cause I made the same mistake long ago.

plydem
08-05-2006, 21:06
Plydem, "he" ain't a he. Frieden is a member of the fairer sex. :sun I know 'cause I made the same mistake long ago.

Yeah, I realized that a short time after I posted but I guess she let it slide and I'll make sure I keep that in mind going forward. That's what I get for not looking at her profile.

frieden
08-05-2006, 21:07
Don't sweat it. No harm, no foul. :)

plydem
08-05-2006, 21:24
Thanks! You know, there was a thread on this very subject but I can't remember which forum it was in. Basically, the question asked was whether or not Whiteblaze would allow the designation of sex in a more prominent place. I think quite a few people were against it. Like I said, I have to remember to look at the profile to detemine what pronoun to use.

Rouen
08-19-2006, 09:06
I use Cesar Millans "methods" to control my dogs, I rescued a new dog in May that came to me dog aggressive and high prey drive, with these mothods I have gotten her to no longer chase the cat/cars and she plays very well with my other dog, but she's still a work in progress.
if you want to know more about Cesar and how he works you can google search his name, dog whisperer or dog psychology center

Rain
08-19-2006, 21:36
Just to update on Loki's progress...

Nobody believes that he is or was dog aggressive anymore! LOL
Though he watches new dogs more than I like (hey, I'm picky), he doesn't show what he did. No more barking, pulling, lunging, hackles, etc. Loki is enjoying his new friends. =) It helps being able to bring him to work (a large petstore) every day. Wow, does that help!

<insert giddy dance here>

frieden
08-21-2006, 08:24
Confused about your dog's behavior? Walk a mile in their paws.....or 13 nights chained to their house:

http://www.hsus.org/pets/pets_related_news_and_events/chain_off_2006.html