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VictoriaM
07-31-2006, 15:18
I took my dog out hiking with me the other day, and let him drink form a couple of natural water sources. That was last Wednesday. On Sunday, I woke up to discover that he had pooped in hs crate overnight, and since then he has had nearly liquid stools. Is it possible that he's sick from the water? I can't think of anything else it could be, but I'm not positive. My in-laws dogsat on Saturday, so he could have caught something there, maybe from their cat. I'll be taking him to a vert soon if it doesn't stop, but I'm wondering if anyone else has had a dog get sick from drinking from a stream. Did you have to get the dog treated, or did it just stop?

SGT Rock
07-31-2006, 15:21
Take your dog to a vet and find out.

VictoriaM
07-31-2006, 15:25
I don't want to go yet, because he's had diarrhea lasting more than a day before. He's a puppy and eats things off the ground. Just wondering if anyone else has had an issue with natural water before.

Amigi'sLastStand
07-31-2006, 15:30
Giardia can affect dogs. Take your dog to a vet with a fresh stool sample. Disinfect his cage, kennel, sleep area, eating area, or anywhere your dogs butt ends up. No joking. You can use a bleach solution in a spray bottle, or lysol if your concerned about colors.

Phreak
07-31-2006, 15:32
You mention the liquid stool -- Is it pale? Have a bad odor? Appear greasy? These are the typical symptoms of giardia in dogs.

Since the dog was exposed to several potentially contaminated water sources, I'd make it a point to get your dog to a vet and have some blood work done. Remember to take a sample of the loose stool for testing as well. And make sure you let the vet know the dog was hiking and drank from several water sources on the trail.

plydem
07-31-2006, 15:41
Not to be overly dramatic but if he's a puppy I would also be concerned about Parvovirus. This is a deadly disease and not to be taken lightly. It can kill young puppies in 48 hours. As noted by others the safest thing to do is to get a stool sample and the puppy to the vet ASAP and disinfect all areas he has been. If it's Parvo, it can stay active for months if you don't bleach it out.

VictoriaM
07-31-2006, 15:44
He's 11 months old, and is up to date on all his shots, including parvo. I'll be taking him to the vet on Wednesday (I have class tomorrow, so I just can't) if it doesn't clear up by then.

The Solemates
07-31-2006, 16:31
You mention the liquid stool -- Have a bad odor?

No, it smells like roses. :rolleyes:

gumball
07-31-2006, 17:15
Seriously, dogs can definitely get giardia, and it can dehydrate a puppy faster than you can imagine. It is wise, as mentioned above, to let your vet know he drank out of a stream and that you were out in the wilderness--giardia can sometimes be difficult to diagnose. You may want to call your vet and get some advice on a dosage of Pepto, to help alleviate the symptoms and reduce his chances of dehydration--please don't give it to him/her tho, without asking for the appropriate dosage by weight and age.

weary
07-31-2006, 17:40
Seriously, dogs can definitely get giardia, and it can dehydrate a puppy faster than you can imagine. It is wise, as mentioned above, to let your vet know he drank out of a stream and that you were out in the wilderness--giardia can sometimes be difficult to diagnose. You may want to call your vet and get some advice on a dosage of Pepto, to help alleviate the symptoms and reduce his chances of dehydration--please don't give it to him/her tho, without asking for the appropriate dosage by weight and age.
Giardiasis takes more than a day or two to develop. Though I forget just how long, I doubt if that is the problem with this dog. However, dogs are subject to Giadiasis and there is considerable evidence that they serve as the major vector for spreading the parasite along trails.

I suspect more hikers get the disease from allowing friendly dogs to lick their faces and hands than from drinking untreated water.

Weary

Phreak
07-31-2006, 17:45
No, it smells like roses. :rolleyes:

Thanks for your contribution to this topic.

The Solemates
07-31-2006, 18:01
I suspect more hikers get the disease from allowing friendly dogs to lick their faces and hands than from drinking untreated water.

Weary

Interesting point, but I doubt it is true.

As a side note, my coonhound drinks from streams every time we go, and he always licks me and Ive never gotten diseases.

gravityman
07-31-2006, 18:15
Our dog often has digestive problems on the trail. We usually tie it to some long dead animal that she found beside the trail and scarfed down before we can get her to drop it. Giardia is nothing compared to that...

Personally I would wait a few days and see what happens...

Gravity

Ridge
07-31-2006, 18:21
[quote=VictoriaM]I took my dog out hiking with me the other day, and let him drink form a couple of natural water sources. [quote]

Haven't you heard of not letting your dog drink from the same place that hikers get their water? You are supposed to take the dog its bowl, or let the dog use your own. You can filter the dogs water. I guess you let the dog swim around in the water also? Typical dog-hiker!!!

generoll
07-31-2006, 18:22
i am told that Giardia has gotten into all of the mammals in the back country which is why ANY water source is suspect. given what most carrion eaters make a meal of, i don't think that it troubles them, but they can certainly serve as vectors.

Ridge
07-31-2006, 18:26
...... my coonhound drinks from streams every time we go.....

Thanks too for being the typical dog-hiker who lets his dogs get into the same water source that other hikers get their water. Typical dog-hikers are so hypocritical and full of BS.

VictoriaM
07-31-2006, 19:24
Ridge, get a freaking life. I really doubt that hikers and dunking their bottles in a little trickle of water that you have to step through as you walk along the trail. Besides, my dog didn't take a crap in the water, he stuck his tongue in it...and I'd be willing to bet that his tongue is a whole lot cleaner than yours (and definitely cleaner than the bottoms of hiking boots that go tromping through that little trickle every day). Now please stop stirring **** and get out of the dog forum, since clearly your whole reason for being here is to cause trouble.

Ridge
07-31-2006, 19:25
Ridge, get a freaking life. I really doubt that hikers and dunking their bottles in a little trickle of water that you have to step through as you walk along the trail. Besides, my dog didn't take a crap in the water, he stuck his tongue in it...and I'd be willing to bet that his tongue is a whole lot cleaner than yours (and definitely cleaner than the bottoms of hiking boots that go tromping through that little trickle every day). Now please stop stirring **** and get out of the dog forum, since clearly your whole reason for being here is to cause trouble.

You are stupid!!

Fiddleback
07-31-2006, 20:23
QUOTE:

Dog Forum: This is not a debate forum. Read before posting.


Notice



This forum was created for the purpose of discussing how to responsibly hike the trail with a dog. The purpose of the forum is not to debate the whole topic of dogs on the trail. If your aim is to do so, please go to The general forum or poll forum or something. Otherwise stay away from these threads.


That said, if you disagree with dogs on the trail, it is probably because of unaware or irresponsible owners. The purpose of this forum was to try to fix that. The hope is dog hikers can pass on to each other the things that make the rare, good trail dogs a good trail dog. If more trail dogs benefit from good owners, then maybe there will be less problems in the long run.


If a dog owner that plans to bring their dog to the trail comes here and learns all the informal rules; the health, safety, and first aid issues they must consider; the impact a hike can have on a dog, the impact a dog can have on a hike; the equipment and pack weight issues to consider; effects of secondary predation, disease, and other impacts of wildlife on the dog and the dog on the wildlife; and the overall impact of the dog hiker on other hikers and even other dogs - The hope is that a dog owner can participate in the forum and learn all the informal rules and how hard it can really be to hike with a pet responsibly, and then allow them to make a personal, informed decision to either not hike with a pet or to go on the trail armed with the skills, knowledge, and attitude to do it correctly.


All that said, this forum came about this way because it had to. Every time the topic of how to act responsibly, the thread deteriorated into another battle against dog lovers against the supposed "dog haters". So if you plan to post here, post advice about how to backpack responsibly with the pet as a response to the question or topic. Due to past experiences the threads will be monitored closely for failure to comply. Abusers will loose the ability to read or post on this forum.

__________________
SGT Rock :END QUOTE

So...how much time does Ridge have left?:p

SGT Rock
07-31-2006, 20:48
None. I just got in though to check the forum, I'll leave the posts up, but he won't be posting on this forum anymore.

Amigi'sLastStand
07-31-2006, 21:57
God, it's about time. I took most of his crap in stride, but the stuff he said to GreyGoose, no matter how screwed up GG is, was never called for.

weary
07-31-2006, 22:21
Ridge, get a freaking life. I really doubt that hikers and dunking their bottles in a little trickle of water that you have to step through as you walk along the trail. Besides, my dog didn't take a crap in the water, he stuck his tongue in it...and I'd be willing to bet that his tongue is a whole lot cleaner than yours (and definitely cleaner than the bottoms of hiking boots that go tromping through that little trickle every day). Now please stop stirring **** and get out of the dog forum, since clearly your whole reason for being here is to cause trouble.
Those of us who follow such things know that dogs are a common vector for giardiasis. One study found that even city dogs are frequently afflicted with giardia paraites. I'm not surprised. Dogs use their tongue to clean themselves -- and to welcome and express friendship with other creatures -- including hikers.

Believe it or not. Dogs almost certainly contribute significantly to the growing level of giardia infection along the AT and other trail corridors.

Weary

Lugnut
07-31-2006, 22:30
I suspect more hikers get the disease from allowing friendly dogs to lick their faces and hands than from drinking untreated water.

Weary

I read an article a while back that reported over 70% of all dogs are afflicted with the giardia bug. The study included everything from well cared for house dogs to strays. Weary is probably right on the mark in his suspicions. Other animals would probably test the same but they don't slobber all over you! :D

Alligator
07-31-2006, 22:58
Yes, dogs can get giardia. This article
http://www.healthgene.com/avian/d405.asp
states that the prepatent period (time from infection to ability to diagnosis) is 5-12 days. The period you mention is 5 days. Could be it.

Since both dogs and humans can get the same disease, it's not unreasonable to expect a hiker to provide the same level of water treatment to their dog that the hiker would do for themself. It might save some cleanup.

the goat
07-31-2006, 22:59
None. I just got in though to check the forum, I'll leave the posts up, but he won't be posting on this forum anymore.

just came upon this, thanks for dealing accordingly rock.

dogs drinking straight from a water source is a non-issue. if ridge spent any time on the trail at all, he would know that he often shares water sources with beaver, racoons, deer, bear, moose, grouse, squirrels, mice, snakes, fish etc., all of which wouldn't think twice before crapping in it, much less take a simple drink.

VictoriaM
07-31-2006, 23:06
Well in this case, at least, it's not giardia. Turns out that there's a bug going around to all the dog's in my mother-in-law's neighborhood, and he was exposed on Saturday when they babysat. That's good news, but I still can't wait for this to be over.

Weary, I believe that they can carry it, though if it's from washing themselves, my dog doesn't have it. Pugs aren't shaped right to wash their naughty bits (at least mine isn't) and mine doesn't lick himself at all.

As far as the risk to people from him drinking directly from a stream, I can't think tat he'd add uch more risk than was already there from wildlife drinking and walking through. Regardless of that, I never let him drink where people would possibly refill their own water, and not even very often at that. I carry a bottle of water and a dish on every trip. Typical dog hiker indeed. :rolleyes:

From now on I think I'll keep him out of streams when he needs a drink. Pugs don't need much water, so a little extra won't be too much for me to carry. It might not be river germs this time, but might time it next be. For my own peace of mind, he can drink some of my Poland Spring.

blackbishop351
07-31-2006, 23:15
While we're on the subject of treating a dog's water....

Anybody know of negative effects of giving a dog iodine? I know it can cause issues in humans after extended periods of time, but I wonder if it would affect dogs more quickly because of their smaller size and increased metabolism.

For this very reason, I've always let my dogs drink from a stream; I always use iodine for my own water. However, I only do day hikes with my dogs, I don't let them drink from anything that appears stagnant or dirty, and I never let them urinate or defecate anywhere near a water source. I also don't take them hiking in areas I know have water problems; I myself don't often hike those areas.

blackbishop351
07-31-2006, 23:16
he can drink some of my Poland Spring.

Wow...that's one spoiled little pug :D

The only bottled water I'll spend money on for MYSELF is from Sam's!

Alligator
08-01-2006, 00:01
While we're on the subject of treating a dog's water....

Anybody know of negative effects of giving a dog iodine? I know it can cause issues in humans after extended periods of time, but I wonder if it would affect dogs more quickly because of their smaller size and increased metabolism.

For this very reason, I've always let my dogs drink from a stream; I always use iodine for my own water. However, I only do day hikes with my dogs, I don't let them drink from anything that appears stagnant or dirty, and I never let them urinate or defecate anywhere near a water source. I also don't take them hiking in areas I know have water problems; I myself don't often hike those areas.Don't know about the iodine question.

Whether or not a human treats their water is a personal decision. But if a person feels strongly enough to treat their own water, it seems like a disconnect to me to not treat the dog's water. Both the human and the dog are at risk (probably not the same risk) for contracting giardia.

A couple of options here.
Get the information on dogs and iodine. This has been opened for discussion.

In the mean time bring water for the dog if day hiking, as VictoriaM has decided to and/or change water treatment.

generoll
08-01-2006, 08:37
i think perhaps we need to define our terms here. an animal can carry a disease without 'having' the disease. malaria and mosquitos are an example. i don't doubt that dogs can and do carry giardia. as i said in my earlier post, giardia has gotten into most of the wild mammals as well as the domesticated ones (think horses, ever share a trail with them?) so any open water source should be considered suspect. as far as dogs being affected by the bug, that is something i'd like to see a reference to. i've got a pit/chow mix that some good ole boy threw away in the woods by Bald River Falls and my daughter brought home as a puppy and nursed back to life. she eats any road kill she can find and seems to suffer no ill effects. i just don't think that dogs are effected by most intestinal critters to the same degree that we are.

oh, and just in case you were confused about the pronouns in the above sentence, it's the DOG that eats the road kill. :)

SGT Rock
08-01-2006, 08:54
Dogs can get it and suffer from it:





Signs of Giardia in dogs and cats

Clinical signs range from none in asymptomatic carriers, to mild recurring diarrhea consisting of soft, light-colored stools, to acute explosive diarrhea in severe cases. Other signs associated with giardiasis are weight loss, listlessness, mucus in the stool, and poor appetite. These signs are also associated with other diseases of the intestinal tract, and are not specific to giardiasis; therefore positive identification of these organisms is an important aspect of a thorough patient work up.

Diagnosis is confirmed by finding the cysts or motile stages in feces. [Read the note from Dr. Dunn below.] A negative report does not rule out Giardia! Because ysts are only passed periodically, several fecal examinations may be necessary to diagnoses this parasite. At least three fecal samples, examined over a period of seven to ten days, should be examined. Special stains can be used, too, to assist in identifying these microscopic invaders.


Treatment for Giardia

There are two antiprotozoal drugs commonly recommended (metronidazole and quinacrine). Contact your veterinarian for the drug of choice and treatment program. All infected animals should be treated whether or not they show clinical signs.
A Note from Dr. Dunn...


Not long ago I was the consulting veterinarian for a manufacturer of top quality raw meat diets for dogs and cats. An interesting situation occurred with a customer of the company and I would like to share the experience with you. The customer owned and operated a large boarding kennel and raised Golden Retrievers as show dogs. This individual had been feeding Animal Food Services meat diet for months and was very happy with the quite noticeable benefits the diet had on her dogs. Soon after a new shipment of the frozen meat was delivered and fed, some of her dogs began to have loose stools, were losing weight and had poor appetites. A number of stool samples were analyzed by her veterinarian; all were negative for parasites. The assumption was made that it must have been the new batch of frozen raw food that was causing some kind of food contamination problem... Salmonella, possibly, or E. coli. Understandably the kennel operator was very concerned about her own dogs and the welfare of all her boarders. She was about to withhold payment for a thousand pounds of frozen, raw pet food and was going to ask the manufacturer to take it back. Plus she was going to stop feeding this raw food because she lost faith in the safety of the product. She also requested reimbursement by the food manufacturer for all her veterinary bills for the treatment of the dogs that were sick.

The company asked me to consult with this kennel operator. She explained the circumstances, and the fact that "numerous fecal samples ruled out parasites" and that "this all started with that new shipment of food". I asked a number of questions and gained insight into her high quality kennel operation. One of my questions was whether or not the dogs had access to any streams or nearby waterways. The answer was "Yes, but they have always gone down to the stream and that has never been a problem".

I made a request: Submit a fecal sample from three affected dogs that were showing signs of trouble. Tell your veterinarian that these samples should be sent to a veterinary diagnostic lab and request special staining procedures be done specifically looking for Giardia. (I indicated that the manufacturer would pay for these samples.) She was to call me when the results came back.

Five days later I received a call from the pet food company. They thanked me. The three samples showed high numbers of Giardia. The food was not at fault at all! Ordinary fecal analysis done in most veterinarian's labs do not reveal Giardia very well and often special stains are needed to display these elusive parasites. In this case, the dogs most likely acquired the parasites from the small stream from which they often drank. The kennel operator was much relieved to know the true cause of the problem... and so was the pet food company!

Kennedy, Murray J. Ph.D (2006), Guiardia in Cats and Dogs. ThePetCenter.com. Retrieved 1 August 2006 from http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/gia.html

frieden
08-01-2006, 09:16
Wow! While the cat's away....

Thanks, SGT, for clearing up the Ridge issue.

VictoriaM, I hope your puppy is ok. Pugs are a tricky, problem-ladened breed. They are so doggone cute, though! Seriously, Pugs are high-maintenance. Find a good, cheap vet, get friendly with the local Ag. campus, or become a Vet Tech. It's just one of the joys of owning a Pug. Please, keep us informed on how he is doing.

As far as dogs drinking out of streams, I am strictly against it. It is for the protection of the dog, not the other hikers. Humans carry some nasty stuff, and they are swimming around in there. Do you know what you've stepped in the past 20 miles? Well, it is now in the water, because you just sloshed through it in your boots. My little niece almost died a few months ago, because of tap water in Atlanta. Welcome to the New World. NO water is "clean" anymore. Since we can't tell what level of nasties are in each source, treat all water sources out there! Teach your dog to share your Platy.

Now, if me or my dog are about to pass out from the heat, and we come across a stream, both of us will be stripped down, and laying in it. If other hikers think we are going to die, just so we don't contaminate their already-contaminated water source, they're nuts. (I mean heat stroke issue).

Ed and I start our pack training with the water bladder, tomorrow. Wish us luck!

generoll
08-01-2006, 10:02
ok Sgt. Rock, thanks for the reference. it appears that at least some dogs can get giardia. news to me but i'm willing to accept the reference. i guess i should say that some dogs can be made sick by giardia. probably all dogs can carry it. i suppose that among the wild mammalian population those that are sickened by the disease have shortened life spans to the benefit of their hardier brothers and sisters. natural selection and all that.

SGT Rock
08-01-2006, 10:16
Well what you said also applies to humans:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/article.php?p=119497&postcount=1

But the short skinny:


More good news: If you have a Giardia infestation, you will likely have no symptoms 1, 6, 7, 15, 16, [30] (http://www.californiamountaineer.com/giardia.html#_edn30), [31] (http://www.californiamountaineer.com/giardia.html#_edn31)

The symptoms of giardiasis vary widely. Characteristic symptoms, when they occur, are mild to moderate abdominal discomfort, abdominal distention due to increased intestinal gas, sulfurous or “rotten egg” burps, highly offensive flatulence, and mild to moderate diarrhea. Stools are soft (but not liquid), bulky, and foul smelling. They have been described as greasy and frothy, and they float on the surface of water. Nausea, weakness, and loss of appetite may occur. Studies have shown that giardiasis can be suspected when the illness lasts seven or more days with at least two of the above symptoms.7

However, most infected individuals have no symptoms at all! In one incident1 studied by the CDC, disruption in a major city’s water disinfection system allowed the entire population to consume water heavily contaminated with Giardia. Yet only 11 percent of the exposed population developed symptoms even though 46 percent had organisms in their stools. These figures suggest that (a) even when ingesting large amounts of the parasite, the chance of contracting giardiasis is less than 1 in 2, and (b) if you are one of the unlucky ones to contract it, the chance of having symptoms is less than 1 in 4. But perhaps the most telling statistic is that drinking heavily contaminated water resulted in symptoms of giardiasis in only 1 case in 9.


So a dog and/or a human can get it and still not be really affected by it. L.Wolf (who is part human and part canine) says he never treats. Chances are he already has had Guardia and it doesn't bother him. I think it is more important to keep your from possibly contaminating the source than it is to protect you dog from the source. So if you want, fill a bowl from the spring and give it to 'em, but please try to keep 'em out of the water for others.

frieden
08-18-2006, 22:57
I took Ed to get his shots yesterday, and asked the vet tech to go over the shots with me. Come to find out, Ed has been getting the Giardia vaccine all this time. Didn't know there was one.

SGT Rock
08-18-2006, 23:01
Yep. There is one for dogs and cats. None for humans, horses, and other animals yet. At least none that I know of.

ed bell
08-18-2006, 23:43
I took Ed to get his shots yesterday, and asked the vet tech to go over the shots with me. Come to find out, Ed has been getting the Giardia vaccine all this time. Didn't know there was one. Yeah, but I really didn't want to go.:D

frieden
08-19-2006, 08:05
Yeah, but I really didn't want to go.:D

Hahahaha! :D Yep, Ed, you're safe now. You can throw your water filter out! Besides, I don't know what you're complaining about. You got 3 doggie biscuits!

Amigi'sLastStand
08-19-2006, 09:06
Yeah, but I really didn't want to go.:D
Any pics?:D

Rain
08-19-2006, 20:09
I've avioded this particular thread for a while now. Whenever anyone, ANYONE, so much as mentions Giardia in passing, I'm overcome with a strong sense of loathing. The first month of my attempted thruhike was plagued by this very thing. That month contained some of the worst, lowest times of my life. I'd not wish that on any living thing.
I'll be checking into Loki's records to see if he is getting the vaccinations.

The Weasel
11-16-2006, 12:54
A few thoughts on the sick dog and dogs drinking from water sources:

1) Dogs have major amounts of bacteria in their mouths. Don't be offended; it's how they are. It's largely because of poor canine dental hygiene, but, for that matter, most people do too. The difference is that dogs tend to slobber when drinking, and their saliva gets into water sources. This is bad, bluntly, even if the water source is moving. Dogs - like people - should drink water from containers. Put your dog's water in his bowl when you stop for water.

2) Giardia and other water pathogens will affect almost any mammal. This is part of the 'hard choice' in bringing a dog: Why take precautions for your own health that you won't take for your dog's? If you want to protect him/her, purify their water too. Dogs do NOT have some kind of superior kind of GI tract to humans. Impure water will make them sick, too.

3) Dogs can't talk. When they are sick, their sickness can only be identified from external symptoms. If your dog is sick, why try to make them "tough it out" when it can be a dangerous condition? Either you care for the dog - and will take it to a vet when it's ill (especially if the nature of the illness is unknown) or your shouldn't have the dog in the first place. Another hard choice, but one that comes with having a dog as a life companion.

The Weasel

walkalotapus
12-30-2006, 20:08
When I section hiked with my dog this summer, my very helpful vet provided a giardia vaccine and also provided me with a round of Flagyl in the event it was needed for me or the dog. Loperamide (immodium) is also safe for dogs (according to my vet) if used carefully. I treated water (Aquamira) for both of us and kept her out of poop and dead things and didn't have any problems at all.

docllamacoy
01-03-2007, 22:20
We're pretty sure Coy got giardia while we were hiking in Arizona back in '02. She had all the symptoms of it and did drink out of a nasty water source one day. It actually ended up going away on its own without treatment, although we took her to a vet to get checked out. She has never had it since and has had some pretty questionable water on her two thru-hikes following that.

rev_sunshine
07-08-2007, 17:39
Two dogs drinking water from the same canal

One dog, sick as a...

Second dog, healthy as a...


Just Depends On The Dog,
The Reverend

Lilred
07-08-2007, 19:36
I can't understand why some hikers are so freaked out about dogs getting in the water source. There are a gazillion wild animals getting into the water sources as is, what's the problem with one more dog? Especially if it is running water. I'm sorry, I just don't get it.

fiddlehead
07-09-2007, 00:28
maybe you've never been very thirsty, finally get to a small seep, and someone's dog rushes in front of you to lie in it. happened to me a few times and is not fun.

Lilred
07-09-2007, 01:40
maybe you've never been very thirsty, finally get to a small seep, and someone's dog rushes in front of you to lie in it. happened to me a few times and is not fun.


Would it not be fun if you finally get to a small seep and there was a bear laying in it? Or a deer standing in it? Perhaps it's the fact that a dog is not a wild animal? I've read journals where people got to a water source only to find it filled with dead caterpillars, and drank it anyhow.

I'm not a dog lover or hater. I just think that an animal is an animal and a dog is not any worse than the hundreds of other animals that visit a particular water source.

Marta
07-09-2007, 06:59
Would it not be fun if you finally get to a small seep and there was a bear laying in it? Or a deer standing in it? Perhaps it's the fact that a dog is not a wild animal? I've read journals where people got to a water source only to find it filled with dead caterpillars, and drank it anyhow.

I'm not a dog lover or hater. I just think that an animal is an animal and a dog is not any worse than the hundreds of other animals that visit a particular water source.

The difference is that dogs aren't wild animals. Most wild animals (dead caterpillars and underwater salamanders excepted) will take off as a human approaches the water source. An unleashed/badly-trained dog will rush up in front of you. Or if the dog isn't thirsty, it will simply run ahead and frolick around in the water because 1) it's fun and 2) you're heading for it and if they get there, you'll pay attention to them. It's like a cat sitting on your newspaper--they don't really want to read it (I think), they just want to get between you and it.

Marta/Five-Leaf

fiddlehead
07-09-2007, 07:44
Would it not be fun if you finally get to a small seep and there was a bear laying in it? Or a deer standing in it? Perhaps it's the fact that a dog is not a wild animal? I've read journals where people got to a water source only to find it filled with dead caterpillars, and drank it anyhow.

I'm not a dog lover or hater. I just think that an animal is an animal and a dog is not any worse than the hundreds of other animals that visit a particular water source.

Point taken!
BUT, i've never had the bear or deer problem (that you mention) in my hiking experiences thus far.

The dog's muddying up the only water for miles has happened to me numerous times on the trails.

Lilred
07-09-2007, 12:56
Point taken!
BUT, i've never had the bear or deer problem (that you mention) in my hiking experiences thus far.

The dog's muddying up the only water for miles has happened to me numerous times on the trails.

I can see where that would be a problem if you don't have a filter. Marta, even if the wild animal runs away, the water is still muddied up. You have a good point though, of a dog's playfullnes being a problem at water sources.

Funny, I had a hiker get annoyed with me for using my filter at a water source cause I muddied it up. He even suggested that I should stop filtering so he could get his water, even though I had been there a good five minutes ahead of him and was almost halfway through with the chore. When he found out I was a section hiker, he said one word, "figures". I made sure I filtered extra slow after that. Elitist thru-hikers really tick me off.

superman
07-09-2007, 13:22
Winter has drunk the un-filtered water along the AT, PCT, FT and the LT with out any health problems. I suspect a big part of dogs getting giardia is personal hygiene...similar to people. There was a lot of nasty tasting water on the FT but taste isn't the same as unhealthy. If the water looks bad I filter Winter's water as I do my own. What water is bad is just a wild guess on my part. Some dogs will do some nasty things and mess up their stomachs. Winter is a lady and doesn't do nasty things. :)

frieden
07-13-2007, 11:44
I can't understand why some hikers are so freaked out about dogs getting in the water source. There are a gazillion wild animals getting into the water sources as is, what's the problem with one more dog? Especially if it is running water. I'm sorry, I just don't get it.

Thank you. Well said.

Things like diseases are red flags that the area is out of balance. Have you ever heard that the presence of weeds shows an unhealthy lawn? Stop using chemicals, add compost, and it fixes itself. It is the same in our bodies, as well as the ecosystem. Humans have kicked the world out of balance, and we either have to deal with it, or fix it.

We just moved to OK. There are "pets" (owned dogs and cats) running loose everywhere - and visably covered in engorged ticks. "D**n dogs/cats! All they do is spread ticks and worms." Um - not if you take care of them, you backwoods neanderthal. We stopped at a farmer's market last week, and there were a number of people selling "AKC registered" dogs off the backs of their pickups (very common here). The puppies were literally skin and bones, and some were deformed. They sell for $300 and up, because they are "purebred, AKC registered....blah, blah, blah". It took everything I had not to beat those people into a bloody pulp for their abuse of those puppies. Of course, I reported it, to no avail.

Why are our water sources so polluted and diseased? Well, it isn't because Fido ran through it this morning! He is probably cleaner than the bottom of your boots.

frieden
07-13-2007, 12:08
maybe you've never been very thirsty, finally get to a small seep, and someone's dog rushes in front of you to lie in it. happened to me a few times and is not fun.

That's why we have this forum - to encourage responsible dog hiking! :sun

Even if leashes are not required in the area you are in, unless your dog has perfect recall and obedience training, keep Fido on a leash. Ed is used to hiking on a leash, so it isn't a problem for us, but I would never leash him to do something like climb a boulder field. I would also never let him drink unfiltered water. However, if Ed is overheating, and I think I'm going to lose him, I'm putting him into the cool, running stream, regardless of how rude that may seem. I always try to respect others, but not at the expense of my partner's life. I'm sure most people would agree with that.

The problem seems to stem from what "respect" means. Respect isn't about what you think is right, or what is right/wrong; it is what the other person feels comfortable with. One person may know, without a doubt, that their dog is not polluting the water any more than the thousands of animals and boots that have touched the water so far. While that may be true, we need to think about the hiker coming up the trail who believes that the dog's contact with the water does pose harm, and cannot even imagine what other animals have done in that water recently. (some people cannot comprehend things, unless they see them) We could just tell them to deal with it, but what if the person passes up the water source because of your dog, and then has health issues? Yes, they could have filtered the water, and their current situation is their own fault, but respect isn't about that. It is about trying to make the other person comfortable, without becoming a doormat yourself. Remember, we all have fears, and they don't always make sense. Isn't it nice when someone is understanding with you during those times?

I didn't mean to get preachy, but just wanted to toss out my 2 cents.