View Full Version : Deaths on the AT
DonQuixote
08-03-2006, 13:36
I realize this may be considered a morbid question, but I'll ask anyway.
Does anyone know, or can anyone point me to a way to find out, how many deaths have occured on the AT (murders, exposure, falls, etc.)?
Jack Tarlin
08-03-2006, 15:21
The Appalachian Trail Conservancy in Harpers Ferry could most likely answer all of your questions.
And since you brought it up......yeah, this is indeed a morbid subject.
I don't consider this a morbid question. I'd love to hear the numbers when you get 'em.
Jack Tarlin
08-03-2006, 15:39
If you're that interested:
Several people a year die on the A.T. This is not unusual when one considers that the Trail is used by something like 3-4 million people a year annually.
The overwhelming majority of these deaths are considered perfectly "natural" deaths, i.e. someone dying in their sleep in a shelter or tent, usually of heart failure or disease. In many cases, death was due to a pre-existing medical condition that the deceased was not necessarily aware of.
"Accidental" deaths, such as from falls, lightning strikes, animal attacks, etc. are essentially unheard of. For example, I know of no snakebite fatalities on the Trail in the entire history of its existence. Several people have died in recent years of exposure/exhaustion, but this, too, is extremely rare.
Every year or two, there is a suicide on, or very near the Trail.
And there have been a handful of violent crimes, including around a dozen murders, on or very close to the Trail. These events get a great deal of press---and there's no reason they shouldn't---but the Trail remains one of the safest places on earth.
I don't sell insurance, but I can tell you this: You've a much greater chance of dying in your bathtub; falling off a ladder while cleaning your rain gutters; or dropping dead while snow shoveling than you do of dying on the A.T. And your workplace is more than likely much more dangerous than your home.
I understand there's a natural, and not always morbid interest in this subject.
It generally turns into a "How safe is the Trail?" thread that is generally hijacked by alarmists and gun nuts.
The Trail, despite the occasional lurid news story, is one of the safest places in America, and always has been.
DonQuixote
08-03-2006, 15:41
I wasn't trying to call the safety of the trail into question. I was just looking for some information about the subject for a report, and didn't know where to look.
Jack Tarlin
08-03-2006, 15:46
D.Q.:
If you contact Laurie Potteiger at the ATC office, she'll provide you with the most accurate information available.
Lone Wolf
08-03-2006, 15:53
There's a reporter by the name of Dave DeKok who worked for The Patriot News out of Harrisburg, Pa. who reported on the double murder that took place on the AT in 1990 just south of Duncannon. He later did a story about other murders, rapes, assaults on the AT leading up to 1990. I remember reading it cuz my friends caught the murderer and DeKok interviewed them. Try the archives of The Patriot News.
DonQuixote
08-03-2006, 16:00
You guys are so helpful, thanks!:D
buddha small b
08-03-2006, 16:05
A very intelligent question for anyone not completely familiar with the trail or with hiking in general. It is wise to prepare oneself for any and all types of concerns and this is certainly one of many.
In the book "the Appalachian Trail - How To Prepare For And Hike It" author Jan D. Curran dedicated a chapter to Personal Safety.
I will not "read" the chapter here but I will note that with the increase in trail use an increase in the number of undesirable characters and crime will increase. However it is also important to note that in comparison to cities the A.T. is very safe.
There have been 6 homicides on the trail as of the 2002 statistics. When you consider the millions of people who use the trail annually those are pretty good odds against being murdered.
However, you must consider any number of other crimes that could ruin your day or even your hike. Assaults, robbery etc.
The ATC should have the statistics your looking for but don't let the numbers discourage you. Plan, prepare and use your head. Just like you do when your walking down the street in your hometown and come across a stranger.
I noticed your 20 years old. You'll grow to be an old man by asking serious questions like that. Nothing morbid about it at all.
Happy Trails....
Jack Tarlin
08-03-2006, 16:22
With all due respect, Jan Curran's book is about the WORST book of its sort I can think of, for all sorts of reasons.
He did indeed dedicate considerable space to safety on the Trail. As I recall, he stated at some length who he thought guns on the Trail were a bad idea, and then went on to either say or imply that he carried a firearm while hiking and felt happier for having done so. Kind of mixed mesage, eh?
Anyway, for those interested in the subject of safety and security, there are lots better sources of info than Curran's.
Time To Fly 97
08-03-2006, 16:27
LOCK AND LOAD BABY!
oh...sorry wrong thread...
TTF
buddha small b
08-03-2006, 16:31
I agree that there are better books Jack but to dismiss the wisdom contained in the remainder of the chapter because you disagree with a point is hardly reason to dismiss it entirely.
I believe the subject of guns on the trail is in another thread. :-?
hikerjohnd
08-03-2006, 16:40
beyond foul play, I too would be interested in how many deaths are recorded as being on or near the AT. I would be interested in comparing that number with a city of similar size (using Jack's number of 3-4 million). Beyond the murders, I know of only one death recently, the hiker who passed away in his sleep at a shelter earlier this year.
Hikers have created an interesting community - this is just another facet of it.
At least ten murders have occurred.
See this thread about "crime on the AT" dating from 2002:
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=84
And the answer to it respopnse #8
Jack Tarlin
08-03-2006, 18:44
Buddha:
Coming from the perspective of someone who has hiked the Trail in its entirety several times, I dispute that there isn't a whole lot of wisdom in this book, period, and not just the "safety" chapter.
But your perspective is perhaps different.
buddha small b
08-03-2006, 19:01
right you are Jack....enjoy your beer.
Jack Tarlin
08-03-2006, 19:19
Hey Buddha...
If I laid it on a bit thick with the Curran book, it's cuz I really didn't like his preachy attitude from the get-go, like from the title page onwards.
There is no one right way to prepare for the A.T. or to hike it. More than 8000 folks have done the whole Trail, and I'm pretty sure none of them prepared for it or hiked it the same way.
Any author, trail veteran, Internet webmaster, former hiker, or anyone else who considers themselves to be some sort of expert or guru----ANYONE who comes flat out and implies that there is a right way or a wrong way, or only one way, or especially THEIR way----well, that's an attitude that I think is wrong from the get-go.
A book that calls itself "The A.T.--How to Prepare for and Hike It" displays a certain mindset and arrogance that I feel is simply wrong: In short, I don't believe that there is any one right or wrong way to prepare for, or hike the A.T., and any book that trumpets otherwise is, in my opinion, trumpeting up the wrong Trail.
The Trail, despite the occasional lurid news story, is one of the safest places in America, and always has been.
I'm not so sure of this.
In my home town, there are many hundreds of homes and hotel rooms, and yet not one has ever been the site of a homicide (much less a homicide by a stanger).
On the AT, about 1 in 100 shelters has been the site of multiple murder.
Is the AT safe? Sure.
But one of the safest places in America? Hardly.
eric_plano
08-03-2006, 20:05
I'm not so sure of this.
On the AT, about 1 in 100 shelters has been the site of multiple murder.
Another reason to tent? :D
buddha small b
08-03-2006, 20:28
I couldn't agree with you more Jack but I need to refer you to the original question and it wasn't about a book.
I understand your sensitivity and respect your accomplishments but all I was trying to do was try to give a young man some information.
Should I check with you first before quoting a source? I think not.
Anyway, us being lovers of the outdoors gives us plenty more to talk about whether we agree or not.
I hope to catch up to you sometime. I'll buy you a beer. ;)
Skidsteer
08-03-2006, 21:08
On the AT, about 1 in 100 shelters has been the site of multiple murder.
Even if true that statement is a prime example of using statistics to infer false conclusions. Mark Twain would be proud of you. :D
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1091350
Here's a great quote from the link:
"Think about how stupid the average person is; now realise half of them are dumber than that."
- George Carlin
Skidsteer,
It's more like 1 shelter in 50. What conclusions you want to draw is entirely up to you.
Rick B
Skidsteer
08-03-2006, 21:24
Skidsteer,
It's more like 1 shelter in 50. What conclusions you want to draw is entirely up to you.
Rick B
My conclusion is to never stay in an A.T. shelter and move my residence to Marlboro, MA. But I can't because I might get in a car wreck on the way. ;) :D
generoll
08-04-2006, 09:12
i love it when i hear statistics like this bandied about. care to provide the specific shelters where these murders occured? with back up references?
What would be really helpful, would be the knowledge of "trouble spots" along the AT. I read in a couple of books that there are some areas/towns that HATE hikers. I would like to know these areas, so I can avoid them in my planning (town stops, mail drops, camping spots, etc).
I'm glad the posters here on this thread are not getting the same BS (the inquiry being too insensitive or macabre) I got when inquiring about the camp of the lost hiker John Donovan. But maybe they where just PO'd dog-hikers who can't take it when someone takes exception to their loose and uncontrolled dogs on the trail.
Tramper Al
08-04-2006, 10:20
Hey,
I wouldn't want to get into a whole detailed statistics, methodology thing, but at least think about trying to compare apples to apples, if you are wanting to draw conclusions.
By this, I mean it's quite unreasonable to consider the however-many-millions "use" the AT as your denominator, and then speak of homocide rates in some city. A homicide statistic for a city would be based on the number of year-round residents, and would not include people who came to visit for a few weeks, let alone a few hours. You could argue that the denominator for the AT should be some sort of year-round average of people sleeping on the trail (conservative), or some sort of weighted average of (users*time on trail)/365 days. In any event, it is meaningless to use the "millions" numbers, as it would be to consider that number of people on the trail at one time, let alone as an average daily census over 365 days.
Likewise, it doesn't make a lot of sense to compare occurences based on overall counts, without considering the denominator (again). You see this all the time when for example someone might say your chance of being attacked by a shark is X and of being in an auto accident is Y. Of course we as a society on average spend orders of magnitude more time riding in autos than snorkling the reefs. For the average accountant in Kansas, his risk of shark attack on a daily is about nil. What you really want to know is: "if I go swimming in the ocean at this beach today . . . " and so on.
And I followed the link above, listing homocide occurences on or just off the AT. I found it to be both credible and disturbing, actually.
On the AT, about 1 in 100 shelters has been the site of multiple murder.
when i hike, i bring along turpentine and lots of towels so i can clean up all the blood in the shelters. it's really getting to be ridiculous. i wish all these killers would clean up after themselves. leave no trace!
QHShowoman
08-04-2006, 10:25
Straight from the ATC: There have been 7 murders in the past 80 years that occurred on the AT. That number does not include the two women killed in SNP in 1990, because although the murders occurred in proximity to the trail, there was no connection between them and the trail.
I would bet if someone could get autopsy photos or crime scene pix, they'd be posted right here.
generoll
08-04-2006, 11:07
how did we get dogs in here? were they the killers? or has thread creep begun already.
.......has thread creep begun already.
with your post it does seem that way.
QHShowoman
08-04-2006, 12:34
Straight from the ATC: There have been 7 murders in the past 80 years that occurred on the AT. That number does not include the two women killed in SNP in 1990, because although the murders occurred in proximity to the trail, there was no connection between them and the trail.
Just wanted to correct a few details that I got wrong in my post (thanks to Laurie P. of the ATC for PM-ing me to set the record straight):
The last definitively A.T.-connected murder was in 1990 ... a double-homicide at Cove Mountain Shelter in Pennsylvania. Not the SNP murders I referenced in my earlier post; those actually occurred in 1996 (which I should've known since I just watched that silly "Haunting Evidence" episode the other night). An A.T. connection was never proved or disproved.
TIDE-HSV
08-04-2006, 13:20
27 or 28 years ago, I was with my daughter in the LeConte shelter when a girl and guy were killed by lightning in the Doouble Spring Gap shelter. I don't know if there have been any other accidental deaths in shelters, but, if you're going to assess the danger factor in shelters, then they should certainly be factored in...
I'm not so sure of this.
In my home town, there are many hundreds of homes and hotel rooms, and yet not one has ever been the site of a homicide (much less a homicide by a stanger).
On the AT, about 1 in 100 shelters has been the site of multiple murder.
Is the AT safe? Sure.
But one of the safest places in America? Hardly.
Rick, I think you have a short memory on this one. I can certainly recall a few within recent years, certainly more recent that the AT murders. And I'm not talking about Entwhistle in Hopkinton either
Peaks,
I love Marlborough (and even more so since Fireflies opened up), but I consider Pittsford, NY my hometown.
Rick B
generoll
08-04-2006, 18:25
I'm glad the posters here on this thread are not getting the same BS (the inquiry being too insensitive or macabre) I got when inquiring about the camp of the lost hiker John Donovan. But maybe they where just PO'd dog-hikers who can't take it when someone takes exception to their loose and uncontrolled dogs on the trail.
Seems you were the one bringing dogs into the equation, Ridge. Or do you have a bit of short term memory loss.
The Old Fhart
08-04-2006, 19:46
QHShowomen-"The last definitively A.T.-connected murder was in 1990 ... a double-homicide at Cove Mountain Shelter in Pennsylvania." I think you actually mean the old Thelma Marks shelter 4 miles south of Duncannon. Cove Mountain is a relatively new shelter and wasn't built until years later.
While I was hiking in Maine in 1990 I had met the 2 SOBOs who later discovered the bodies of Geoff Hood and Molly LaRue at Thelma Marks. I heard they took 2 weeks off the trail but did finish their thru. That certainally would freak you out. Still with 4-5 million visitors per year, the A.T. is very safe.
Blue Jay
08-04-2006, 20:10
when i hike, i bring along turpentine and lots of towels so i can clean up all the blood in the shelters. it's really getting to be ridiculous. i wish all these killers would clean up after themselves. leave no trace!
This is very true. I also wish they would stop wearing leaving their Jason masks and knives all around. I'm tired of packing them out.
What would be really helpful, would be the knowledge of "trouble spots" along the AT. I read in a couple of books that there are some areas/towns that HATE hikers. I would like to know these areas, so I can avoid them in my planning (town stops, mail drops, camping spots, etc).
I agree. That would be at least interesting, and, perhaps, helpful. Good idea.
BTW, maybe off topic but informative anyway: my son and I hiked the approach trail almost all the way to Springer and back from Amicalola this past Monday. NO Water!!! Glad we had our own. Entire state is dry.
40,000+/- aspiring thru hikers have attempted to walk the entire AT.
30,000+/- aspiring thru hikers never made it to Katahdin or Springer because they ran out of money, got board, developed shin splints etc, etc.
But
5 aspiring thru hikers never made it the whole way becasue they were killed by a complete stranger somewhere along the way.
That's 1 in 6,000. Right?
That's the safest place in America?
Lone Wolf
08-04-2006, 20:39
I like the way you think Rick.
The Old Fhart
08-04-2006, 21:14
rickboudrie-"5 aspiring thru hikers never made it the whole way becasue they were killed by a complete stranger somewhere along the way.
That's 1 in 6,000. Right?
That's the safest place in America?"Defective logic just doesn't cut it. You are looking at a subset of all trail users. That's like saying, hyperthetically, one person from Finland hikes the trail so he(she) has a 6 in 1 chance of being killed. Section hikers and day hikers don't possess some special immunity to being murdered do they? :D You have to count all the hikers that are exposed to the same conditions, i.e., being on the trail. If all the murders occured at night then you could possibly argue that you could eliminate day users.
Have any Boy Scouts been murdered on the trail? If the answer is no, then, by your logic, if you join the Scouts before you hike, you stand a 0% chance of being murdered on the trail.;)
I'm hearing that the only ones killed on the AT in the past 70+ years were trying to walk (thru) from GA to ME or vice versa? That would be a great suprise to me.
QHShowoman
08-04-2006, 21:41
I think you actually mean the old Thelma Marks shelter 4 miles south of Duncannon. Cove Mountain is a relatively new shelter and wasn't built until years later.
Could be. I'm just repeating the info I received from the ATC.
QHShowoman
08-04-2006, 21:48
Old Fhart: Okay, according to the PATC Web site, the Thelma Marks Shelter was rebuilt in 2000 and became what is now known as the Cove Mountain Shelter. So, then yes, the murders actually took place at the Thelma Marks Shelter. But the ATC information wasn't exactly incorrect.
The Old Fhart
08-04-2006, 22:28
QHShowomen-"Old Fhart: Okay, according to the PATC Web site, the Thelma Marks Shelter was rebuilt in 2000 and became what is now known as the Cove Mountain Shelter. So, then yes, the murders actually took place at the Thelma Marks Shelter. But the ATC information wasn't exactly incorrect."
While it is true that the murders took place in the same general area, in the interest of correctness, the shelter wasn't "rebuilt", it was replaced with an entirely new shelter nearby. this is from the ATN May-June 2001, pages 8-9, http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/ATN01May.pdf
"Through the summer and fall of 2000, volunteers attached the roof, sides, floors, and bunks of the new shelter. In all, 4,000 hours of work were logged by forty-six club volunteers and thirteen timber framers. When the last timber was permanently mounted, the timber framers placed a traditional pine bough at the highest point of the structure to formally end the work.
The old shelter, originally built with the help of pioneering A.T. thru-hiker Earl Shaffer, who lived nearby, was dismantled and burned in September 2000, and its metal roof recycled."
saimyoji
08-04-2006, 22:57
Does anyone know, or can anyone point me to a way to find out, how many deaths have occured on the AT (murders, exposure, falls, etc.)?
Well, lets get back to the original question. There are many reasons why loss of life may occur along the trail. Most reasons have been mentioned somewhere along the way in this thread. Unfortunately many people tend to focus on violent death.
I'd be interested to see statistics showing death due to various causes. I'm sure more people die from carelessness/lack of preparation or accidents than murder.
There has been so many people dieing in and around the trail from heart attacks, suicides, strokes, falls, weather related, that you'll never get an accurate count. But to get you started, heres a listing of deaths in Baxter SP, some of which were on the AT. The Whites have a similar tally as well as other areas along the trail.
http://www.katahdinoutdoors.com/bsp/fatalities.html
I'm sure the link in my previous post is out of date concerning the Baxter SP fatalities. Note, on the list one woman was shot and killed for a bear.
Peaks,
I love Marlborough (and even more so since Fireflies opened up), but I consider Pittsford, NY my hometown.
Rick B
We spent a night there while biking the Erie Canal last month. Stayed at the college. Nice job down along the canal!
QHShowoman
08-05-2006, 10:39
Old Fhart: You're like the official historian of shelters! Here's the PATC link ... maybe we should inform them of their mistake!
http://www.patc.net/store/PA100.htm
Tramper Al
08-05-2006, 13:17
That's 1 in 6,000. Right?
Well, it's more or less right if you want to restrict it to thru hike attempters. Not an unreasonable thing to do, just a different question than some might ask.
Again, though, consider the "time at risk" concept. You see, people are only in the demoninator while "at rik" for being in the numerator. So, if you said the average thru hiker attempter was on the trail say 3 months? Then your rate would actually be 1 per 1,500 per year, you see? This I think is what you'd say was most comparable to a statistic for a town, for example.
The murder rate in my state of Massachusetts stands at about 1 in 40,000. Of course it is much less if you live outside certain areas of Boston and other large cities.
More related to the original question, they do keep record for all kinds of deaths that occurr in the Presidentials, some of which are on the AT, of course.
http://www.mountwashington.com/deaths/index.html
I'm hearing that the only ones killed on the AT in the past 70+ years were trying to walk (thru) from GA to ME or vice versa? That would be a great suprise to me.
I'm not sure but, I don't think any of the murder victims were thru-hikers. certainly not all of them.
neighbor dave
08-05-2006, 17:51
The murder rate in my state of Massachusetts stands at about 1 in 40,000. Of course it is much less if you live outside certain areas of Boston and other large cities.
More related to the original question, they do keep record for all kinds of deaths that occurr in the Presidentials, some of which are on the AT, of course.
http://www.mountwashington.com/deaths/index.html
unfortunatly you can add another one to the list of deaths on mount washington.
http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Quebec+man+dies+on+Mount+Was hington&articleId=601261b0-e61c-445d-8e63-9dd38eb9de3e
:( I died on the AT once . . .
This is very true. I also wish they would stop wearing leaving their Jason masks and knives all around. I'm tired of packing them out.
At least they've switched to knives. The axes and chain saws were way to heavy to pack out. That's the ultralight influence coming in to play.
Sly,
I could be wrong, as the ATC and news reports on such matter are not always accurate, but I do believe that among those individuals murdered on the AT, 5 have been reported to be thru hikers
Molly LaRue and Geoffrey Hood 1990
Susan Ramsey and Robert Mountford 1981
Janice Balza 1975
To my knowledge, the other murder victims were not thru hikers.
Rick B
Thanks Rick, it seemed unlikely considering thru-hikers tend to be grouped together. But the again I did spend several nights in shelters alone.
I still think you have a better chance of hittting the lottery than getting murdered on the AT.
[QUOTE]Thanks Rick, it seemed unlikely considering thru-hikers tend to be grouped together.[/QUOTE
That is an excellent point, Sly.
Obviously there we far fewer Northbounders out in 1974, and I believe the other four were all Southbounders.