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Jack Tarlin
08-10-2006, 11:41
This is something I want to share with you guys, especially those planning to hike next year.

Last night, I went into a favorite local restaurant/bar, long known to be very hiker friendly. I ran into a friend who's worked there for several years; in the process, she's met and served hundreds of hikers.

A few nights ago, seems there was a large group of close to a dozen hikers who filled up her section. They took up several tables, were a little loud, and naturally stank up the joint, but neither she nor anyone else much cared; as I said, this is a very hiker-friendly place (Anywhere that lets you come in off the street fresh off the Trail WEARING your backpack obviously doesn't have a problem with hikers).

Everyone was having a fine time until it became known to the bar staff that one of the hikers had an expired I.D. Unfortunately, in the eyes of the law, this means it could NOT be used for identification purposes or to buy a drink. I know it sound like a crazy law, after all, it wasn't fake, it was merely out-of-date. But that's one of the things New Hampshire is strict about.....if it's expired, it ceases to be valid, and that's that. Also, being a college town, establishments get spot-checked all the time, i.e. an undercover cop or a State Liquor Inspector will enter a place, flash his badge, and randomly do an I.D. check. Underage patrons, or those with bad I.D.'s can get arrested or fined, but more to the point, so will the restaurant, and SO WILL THE SERVER. In short, some of the places in Hanover have gotten very strict about making sure your I.D. is legit, and they will absolutely not serve you if there's a problem with it. After all, would you risk a $1,000.00 fine for a stranger? No, I didn't think so.

Anyway, this kid had an expired license, and while he whined about it while the law was being explained, it wasn't a real problem. They told him he could still say with his friends as long as he didn't drink. They'd have been perfectly within their rights to say he couldn't legally be in the barroom, but they didn't do this. Instead, they relied on his word.

Big mistake. He was caught drinking out of other people's glasses, and was given a polite warning, in fact more than one. Around the third time this happened, he was told that he had to leave restaurant. He did, after cursing out the waitress and flipping her off. Needless to say, his friends did little or nothing in the way of intervention.

One would think the remainder of the group would have been apologetic, especially since it was their flouting of the rules (slipping him drinks) that had helped get him thrown out in the first place.

Nope.

When the group left, only a handful of them tipped (mainly an older couple); the rest left little or nothing, including several, who on the "Tip" section of their credit card slips, wrote "No!" or "No Way!!"

Really classy. They take up two tables for several hours, stink the place up, have the waitress running around all night taking care of them, and then after putting her job at risk and putting her at risk of getting ticketed or fined by helping their friend break the law, they then do nothing when he curses her out, and then they finish up by insulting her instead of tipping her.

Nice work, guys. You should go into Public Relations!

This is EXACTLY why a lot of places on the Trail do not welcome hiker patronage, and it's exactly why there are lots of places who once did---even to the point of offering hiker discounts or specials---who no longer do so.

There are places that will treat hikers like anyone else.

There are places that treat hikers like kings.

And there are places that will treat hikers like dirt, and guess what? They usually have good reasons for doing so.

My friend kind of laughed this off. She's served plenty of hikers over the years and will serve plenty more. She realizes you can't judge a group because of a handful of a******s. But she did say this: "I could never
understand why some of the places in town don't like hikers or don't want their business. For the first time, I understand it now."

Pretty sad.

And something for next year's hikers to think about.

Words to the wise:

*No establishment is under any obligation to serve you.
*Service can be denied for any reason.
*Lots of places are doing you a favor by serving your stinky self;
they don't necesarily need your presence or business.
*If you can't obey local or state laws, then go elsewhere.
*If you see another hiker, even if it's a friend, who's being a jerk,
do something about it, and for God's sake, don't HELP him be a jerk.
*If you have a problem with something, find a manager or owner;
taking out your problem on a young waitress or bartender is not
the way to go.
*You're a hiker, you're not God. Stop feeling so f****** entitled.
*And for heaven's sake, remember the folks who'll be coming thru after
you are long gone. They're going to be relying on these businesses,
whether it's a motel, outfitter, restaurant, whatever. How these folks
get treated will depend on how previous hikers acted and behaved.
*In short, don't poison the well. Sooner or later, who knows? You
might want to drink out of it again yourself.

Gray Blazer
08-10-2006, 11:54
Great post. Ditto!

Hammerhead
08-10-2006, 12:12
It just amazes me how some people don't know how to act in public.

"Who's more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?" :-?

Amigi'sLastStand
08-10-2006, 12:16
Trail names?

Alligator
08-10-2006, 12:18
Learn how to tip too. If you are going to sit at a table all night, recognize you are keeping the table from being turned.

If you are part of a large group, the server may only be handling your single group. Don't be a cheapskate.

Lone Wolf
08-10-2006, 12:22
hikers suck

Wonder
08-10-2006, 12:23
As a restaurant worker myself, she had much more patience then I would have........and I've served some real dicks!!!! The laws around liquor are very strict, and can end a servers career or have an otherwise upstanding establishment stripped of their expensive and nessasary liscense. This is not the first I've heard of this type of behavior this year!!!! There is no way that we, as hikers, can keep, gain, or re-gain the respect of the towns that we so dearly depend on if this type of behavior continues. I do realize that there will always be a few bad apples, but come on guys......you made it to New Hampshire......how long have you been acting this way, and how many "wells" have you poisoned?????
Oh, and as a side note....... servers only make about $2 and hour, and are entirely supported by the tips that they earn. Look at where your anger really lies before taking it out on the poor person just trying to make a living. It's not an easy job.

Footslogger
08-10-2006, 12:26
An example of "entitled" behavior rather than following some basic rules and showing some sign of appreciation for services rendered.

Thanks for putting that out here Jack. Shame that it had to happen and hope it didn't permanently sour this establishments attitude toward hikers.

'Slogger

hammock engineer
08-10-2006, 12:26
I'll have to chime in on this one. I took a job as a server to save up and pay for my hike. Jack, your server friend is definitly a good person. I have people come in and do things similar to that. It puts a huge damper on your tips for that night, and your mood.

Smile
08-10-2006, 12:43
Sad.

IMHO: Behavior like this is unacceptable - if you are in the company of another hiker who acts like this or doesn't tip - say something or spread the word to others. Why let a few affect the whole hiking community and ruin resources for other hikers in towns?

Hypothetical situation: you are at this table and this situation happened, what would you do?

Lone Wolf
08-10-2006, 12:45
Sad.

IMHO: Behavior like this is unacceptable - if you are in the company of another hiker who acts like this or doesn't tip - say something or spread the word to others. Why let a few affect the whole hiking community and ruin resources for other hikers in towns?

Hypothetical situation: you are at this table and this situation happened, what would you do?
I would have physically removed the little puke IF I had been sitting with those Aholes.

StarLyte
08-10-2006, 12:52
That was my ex husband and his friends.

Does anyone remember the scene where Miss Ceely spits in her father-in-law's glass of ice water? :D

Alligator
08-10-2006, 12:53
Sad.

IMHO: Behavior like this is unacceptable - if you are in the company of another hiker who acts like this or doesn't tip - say something or spread the word to others. Why let a few affect the whole hiking community and ruin resources for other hikers in towns?

Hypothetical situation: you are at this table and this situation happened, what would you do?
"Hey, she's just doing her job man, no need to give her a hard time. Be glad she wasn't a cop and you didn't get a ticket." I might even add, "It's your own fault dumbass, let's grab a six after we leave. You're buying or else you're going to be thirsty all night!"

"Hey, don't forget to tip the waitress, we took up her tables for a couple hours."

STEVEM
08-10-2006, 14:00
Jack, If you can post the name / address of the place and the girls first name i'll mail her a buck. Anybody else?

StarLyte
08-10-2006, 14:02
Jack, If you can post the name / address of the place and the girls first name i'll mail her a buck. Anybody else?

What an idea.
I'm game.

Hammerhead
08-10-2006, 14:22
Very cool gesture! I'm in.

Time To Fly 97
08-10-2006, 14:29
Great idea... I'm in too! Trail-Kharma in action.

TTF

DonQuixote
08-10-2006, 14:34
I'll do it!

T-Dubs
08-10-2006, 14:36
Jack, If you can post the name / address of the place and the girls first name i'll mail her a buck. Anybody else?

I'm in. Sounds like a good plan to sweeten that well.

Tom

Jack Tarlin
08-10-2006, 14:50
Wow, guys, personally I think that's a lovely idea, but knowing her for several years, I can safely say that's the LAST thing she'd want, which is why I deliberately left out her name, where she works, etc., tho it's not too hard to figure out if you know Hanover.

As she herself said, it's not about the money. It's about respect, and treating people well.....and what you sometimes get back in return.

She's a great person, and this one episode will absolutely NOT affect the way she treats hikers in the future. In fact, there were hikers there last night, and I saw her serve them, with a smile, all evening long. That's her nature.

As one travels the world, one stumbles over the occasional a******, but if my friend's behavior is any indication, you just smile thru it, and keep on about your business. I honestly believe most people are genuinely good, and life's too short to worry about the rest.

The response to this thread is gratifying, and I appreciate the comments made thus far.

cannonball
08-10-2006, 15:05
Its still a good idea. Even if its not "about the money" WHAT A NICE JESTER FROM THE HIKING COMMUNITY to some nice woman who works hard and is kind to others.

hammock engineer
08-10-2006, 15:06
I thought of something while reading over this thread. It sounds like there are a lot of places out there that are having bad hiker experiences. I know the ATC has something involving this.

It would be a good idea to put together a list on WB of places that are having the bad experiences. That way we could visit them given the chance and help redeem ourselves. Or I may be kidding myself and the few bad apples are doing this everywhere, so putting together a list would include everywhere.

Lone Wolf
08-10-2006, 15:07
We can't give JESTER to some nice woman. He might not be her type.

opqdan
08-10-2006, 15:15
Good post, and it doesn't just apply to hikers or even to just restaurants, but to any interaction between 2 or more people anywhere in the world.

Unfortunately, the hiker community is easily distinguishable (due to both stink and hiker-chic dress), so when a small group acts poorly, it reflects upon the whole.

Bottom line is, don't be an idiot and follow that golden rule. People like that are a disgrace not only to hikers, but to humanity.

TOW
08-10-2006, 15:21
the least we could do is send the establishment an internet card, could we not, or maybe a high five from all of here at whiteblaze..........?

Disney
08-10-2006, 15:22
I'll definetely mail her a dollar. I realize it's not about the money. It's just a dollar from a stranger and won't pay off your mortgage or set you financially free, but it is a gesture that is worth doing. If she is wary about posting her address, I'll send it to you Jack. If other people hear about it, it may have an effect with those types of hikers who would act in that deplorable manner.

Jack Tarlin
08-10-2006, 15:22
I appreciate Wolf's quick eye.....one of these days soon, we'll bring him by there again, it's one of his favorite places. And maybe "A nice Jester from the hiking community" is exactly what this place needs, tho the young lady's boyfriend perhaps feels differently!

RITBlake
08-10-2006, 15:31
very interesting idea, I'd be in for it. When one bad apple spoils the whole bunch, sometime you need to plant a new apple tree.

STEVEM
08-10-2006, 15:34
Jack: You're right, Its not about the money. Its about doing whats right, and whats right is to make up for those jerks. We're all AT hikers,and as such we were all sitting at that table.

Shutterbug
08-10-2006, 15:37
Count me in for more than a buck. What if we sent the money to you, Jack? Would you be willing to deliver it to her with an apology for the hiker community.

I do wish I knew the trail names of the hikers. I will probably see them in the 100 Mile Wilderness in a few days. I would be willing to have a word with them on behalf of their friends at WhiteBlaze.

Jack Tarlin
08-10-2006, 15:40
I assure you, the money would embarass her.

But tell you what.....if anyone wants to pass along a hello or a friendly message here, I'll print this thread up in a few days and hand-deliver it to her.

She already knows most hikers are pretty good folk, but a real reminder can't hurt.

(Oh, and if you should find yourself in a very-hiker friendly restaurant pub in Hanover at some point.....the one that's down a flight of stairs.....BE NICE TO THE BARTENDERS AND WAITSTAFF!! It'll all come back to you someday!)

Lone Wolf
08-10-2006, 15:44
Send all those bucks to "The Place" in Damascus. It gets stiffed more than any waitresses.

Cedar Tree
08-10-2006, 16:08
I tell ya I think this class is one of the worst I've seen or heard of. For the first time during my short Packa tenure, I was ripped off at Trail Days by a Thruhiker named LUSH. He told me he wanted to pay with a credit card, which I can only accept via Paypal. So he left and supposedly went to the Library and paid via paypal. So trustingly, I gave him a Packa, and when I got home, no payment. So if any of you meet a guy name LUSH, tell him he owes me $110, he's a sorry, pitiful excuse for a hiker, and he is a black mark on the whole hiker community. I would not be surprised at all to hear the hiker in Jack's story is LUSH. Loser.
Cedar Tree

Just Jeff
08-10-2006, 16:22
Is stealing back stolen goods a bad thing? Maybe CT should receive a Packa in the mail soon...courtesy of LUSH.

Smile
08-10-2006, 16:56
What's the big secret about the hiker(s) trail names?

Sly
08-10-2006, 17:06
Not defending the hikers at all, they were aholes, but the bar should have tossed the hiker and the owner of the glass or bottle he was drinking out of the 1st time he got caught.

Jack Tarlin
08-10-2006, 17:12
There is no secret whatsoever. It's just that several hikers present were just fine, and several did in fact leave a tip. I don't want a whole group tarred when in fact some of them are perfectly innocent. That doesn't seem quite fair.

Well, not perfectly innocent. They knew this kid shouldn't have been drinking, yet they either funnelled him beers or sat idly by and said nothing when others did; nor did they try to calm him down and keep him in line when he was asked to leave. In my opinion, they'e ALL pretty much guilty, but I'm not gonna name 'em here even if they probably deserve it.

There are other ways.

I expect to be all over New Hampshire and Maine in the next few weeks, hiking, visiting friends, probably doing some Trail Magic with some pals. There's an excellent chance I'll see this group again somewhere, hopefully at a cook-out, hiker gathering, whatever. I can assure you that there are certain folks out there who won't get fed, won't get slacked, won't get rides to town, won't get a damned thing.

Some folks simply don't deserve it.

Sly
08-10-2006, 17:18
Yeah, I was I was doing feed or running a hostel up north right about now.

Oh, you're the group that got all indignant and stiffed the waitress in Hanover?

Sorry, keep hiking!

Amigi'sLastStand
08-10-2006, 17:59
No trail name, no name to the establishment. We are then assured that the hikers will be dealt with by the AT oligarchy.:eek: I love it.:rolleyes: I especially enjoyed the patronization:


Words to the wise:

*No establishment is under any obligation to serve you.
*Service can be denied for any reason.
*Lots of places are doing you a favor by serving your stinky self;
they don't necesarily need your presence or business.
*If you can't obey local or state laws, then go elsewhere.
*If you see another hiker, even if it's a friend, who's being a jerk,
do something about it, and for God's sake, don't HELP him be a jerk.
*If you have a problem with something, find a manager or owner;
taking out your problem on a young waitress or bartender is not
the way to go.
*You're a hiker, you're not God. Stop feeling so f****** entitled.
*And for heaven's sake, remember the folks who'll be coming thru after
you are long gone. They're going to be relying on these businesses,
whether it's a motel, outfitter, restaurant, whatever. How these folks
get treated will depend on how previous hikers acted and behaved.
*In short, don't poison the well. Sooner or later, who knows? You
might want to drink out of it again yourself.

So who thinks their God?

Skidsteer
08-10-2006, 18:08
Oh boy. Here we go.

Sly
08-10-2006, 18:09
So who thinks their God?

Your point?

Jack Tarlin
08-10-2006, 18:22
Amigi:

The answer to your question is LOTS of thru-hikers get the feeling that they're some kind of Hot S*** because they're thru-hiking, and this attitude is expressed in all sorts of ways: They're rude to section hikers or weekenders; they demand special privileges, rights, or discounts because they're thru-hikers; they're rude or demanding in stores, especially Outfitters; they make unreasonable demands on gear manufacturers and "threaten" to blacken their names if they don't get their stuff fixed or replaced on demand; they're rude with people in towns, such as in Post Offices, stores, and Libraries; they feel that fees and charges that apply to the general public somehow don't apply to them; they behave any way they wish in restaurants, motels, and other facilities.

In short, they feel somehow entitled only because they are thru-hikers, and this is wrong.

And there's no A.T. oligarchy. All I said was if I encountered these folks on the Trail while I was out doing nicestuff for hikers, I'd give them a pass. This is an "oligarchy" at work?

Nope. I'm just not going to do any favors for a*******, OK? You can if you wish, but not me.

And lastly, if you're gonna quote someone's words or re-print their post here, it's not cool to change the type-face or font of their post, in order to emphasize a sentence or brief point. In short, it's dishonest, and makes it look like the "Stop feeling entitled!" comment of the post was my main point.

It wasn't.

My main point was there's a right way and a wrong way for hikers to act in public, and that their behavior can affect how other hikers are treated in Trail towns, businesses, facilities. And that nobody has a right to behave in a way that will f*** things up for other hikers.

As someone who'll be hiking next year, one would think you'd appreciate that this is an issue that concerns folks.

Sorry you think it's "patronizing" but I assure you, when you get to a place someday and they tell you the motel's filled, or you can't tent out back anymore, or it takes twenty minutes before anyone hands you a menu, or someone tells you they'd just as soon not have to deal with hikers, well I assure you that you won't think that criticizing this sort of behavior is "patronizing."

Instead, you'll probably wanna wring the necks of the inconsiderate bastards whose lousy behavior came back to impact YOUR trip.

And in feeling that way, you'd be right.

bfitz
08-10-2006, 19:12
Well, since the guy actually was old enough...and I'm assuming it was just barely and this guy wasn't 40 or something, the waitress wasn't obligated to check his ID at all. That being said, if any officials tried to charge her, or the establishment with any wrongdoing, the fact that none actually occurred would come out in court, right? Or am I misunderstanding the law? I realize old ID's are a problem in college towns, and if she wasn't convinced she was dealing with the person on the ID (not borne out by the rest of her actions...)
she had every right to kick the guy out, but if she knew he was of age (and she obviously did...), and no police officer could prove otherwise, than her job and the establishment's money weren't actually at risk, and the hiker in question probably knew that.

Making a scene and flipping people off in public is never called for, of course. Hikers have a special responsibility in this regard for the reasons Jack stated. And that is where the offense lies IMO.

But I tend to think the hiker in question might have had some cause to be miffed. I'd want to witness the whole group's interaction with the waitress before I determined what kind of tip she deserved. Correct me if I'm wrong, I hate when hikers act like a-holes in town, but I also hate when some are held to higher standards than others.

neighbor dave
08-10-2006, 19:24
:-? sounds to me like those jerks would've done that stuff whether they were thru-hikin' or not. there's all kinds of inconsiderates out there. i agree with sly that they should've got the boot right off, bad choice by the managment and or waitress. even a worse move by the jerks who were pullin' that crap. with some of the words that are expressed here about thru-hikers on occasion you'd think that they're all a bunch of jerks. don't let a couple ruin it for the rest. being a little more careful when choosing words to describe thru-hikers would be nice. first and foremost these jerks are people and although they're thru-hikin' i think that people need to be careful when clumping jerks and thru-hikers together in an instance like this. i mean we now know they pulled a bad move,let's not drag thru-hikers through the mud just because thats what those idjits were doing when they decided to act like jerks!:sun

The Old Fhart
08-10-2006, 19:34
A few years ago Quincy's had a problem so they were checking everyone and tagging everyone who came in. I hadn't been carded in almost 40 years and thought it was funny but the person most pleased was Paw-Paw (many years my elder) who proudly displayed his wrist band they used for tagging, for all to see!:D

Sly
08-10-2006, 19:36
Fitz, I was going to ask Jack how old the dude was, but it doesn't make any difference legally. Obviously, if he got carded he wasn't 40 something and needed to be carded! Despite the fact the invalid ID said he was old enough, you need a valid ID to legally do anything that calls for one!

Skidsteer
08-10-2006, 19:39
Correct me if I'm wrong, I hate when hikers act like a-holes in town, but I also hate when some are held to higher standards than others.

Trust me bfitz, I'm all for ignoring silly and unenforceable laws. But only when doing so has zero chance of harming simple folk trying to do their job.

My read is that it's an ethical/moral breach over and above the legal question.

Sly
08-10-2006, 19:43
My read is that it's an ethical/moral breach over and above the legal question.

Exactly, the hiker was trusted and expected to do the right thing, which wasn't drink. Fool me once shame on me.... fool me twice you're outta here!

SGT Rock
08-10-2006, 22:15
Who hasn't had to swallow their pride and do something they thought was silly or not do something for some silly rule?

As we say in the hood: "Don't hate the playa for being a playa, hate the game the playa plays". Translation: It isn't the waitress or the restaurant's fault the system is set up that way, so don't take it out on them.

But from Jack's report it sounds like some of the group already understands that. Maybe one of the more adult acting members of the group will log into WhiteBlaze, read this, realize it was a group they were in, and then relate it to the group and exert some peer pressure on the others to grow the **** up. Pardon my bluntness.

AbeHikes
08-11-2006, 09:53
:-? sounds to me like those jerks would've done that stuff whether they were thru-hikin' or not.

I second that. A turd is a turd whether it's on the trail or not.

Smile
08-11-2006, 10:04
I must be missing something here.....what is the big secret about the trail name of this individual?

So many are quick to say who is a theif, use the name of a certain hiker that publishes a trail guide, and state name after name about all sorts of things.....I thought the trail community was tight and small and news travelled fast? I guess there is something I have missed here.

Is there a fear that somebody might PM this person if they are on this board? or that somebody might actually have something to say to them on trail about their past behavior?

Alligator
08-11-2006, 10:26
I must be missing something here.....what is the big secret about the trail name of this individual?

So many are quick to say who is a theif, use the name of a certain hiker that publishes a trail guide, and state name after name about all sorts of things.....I thought the trail community was tight and small and news travelled fast? I guess there is something I have missed here.

Is there a fear that somebody might PM this person if they are on this board? or that somebody might actually have something to say to them on trail about their past behavior?Let me see if I have read this correctly. You think this person should be outed for their past behavior? If they are WB members, should we connect their login names with their trail names?

Disney
08-11-2006, 10:33
[quote=SGT Rock]As we say in the hood: "Don't hate the playa for being a playa, hate the game the playa plays." quote]

Wow, never thought Rock would say something like that.
Makes me laugh.
:D

Skyline
08-11-2006, 11:24
Well, since the guy actually was old enough...and I'm assuming it was just barely and this guy wasn't 40 or something, the waitress wasn't obligated to check his ID at all. That being said, if any officials tried to charge her, or the establishment with any wrongdoing, the fact that none actually occurred would come out in court, right? Or am I misunderstanding the law? I realize old ID's are a problem in college towns, and if she wasn't convinced she was dealing with the person on the ID (not borne out by the rest of her actions...)
she had every right to kick the guy out, but if she knew he was of age (and she obviously did...), and no police officer could prove otherwise, than her job and the establishment's money weren't actually at risk, and the hiker in question probably knew that.

Making a scene and flipping people off in public is never called for, of course. Hikers have a special responsibility in this regard for the reasons Jack stated. And that is where the offense lies IMO.

But I tend to think the hiker in question might have had some cause to be miffed. I'd want to witness the whole group's interaction with the waitress before I determined what kind of tip she deserved. Correct me if I'm wrong, I hate when hikers act like a-holes in town, but I also hate when some are held to higher standards than others.


In some states, the liquor control agency expects anyone who looks under a certain age--say 27 or 30--to be carded. It's a subjective thing, but if you have a thriving business based on maintaining your liquor license, you'd be smart to do what's expected.

Skyline
08-11-2006, 11:33
A few years ago Quincy's had a problem so they were checking everyone and tagging everyone who came in. I hadn't been carded in almost 40 years and thought it was funny but the person most pleased was Paw-Paw (many years my elder) who proudly displayed his wrist band they used for tagging, for all to see!:D

Two years ago--and I was then and am now WAY over 21--I got carded at a club. At first I thought the doorman was blind. Then I took it as a compliment. Then I saw an even older guy a few spaces behind me get carded. What a letdown! Everyone was getting carded!

It was later explained to me by a bartender there that in addition to wanting to make sure everyone drinking was of legal age, they were carding every single person to avoid being accused of discrimination against minorities. After it was explained like that, it seemed fair and prudent to me and might have had the added benefit of protecting folks from actual discrimination. But he could have lied, couldn't he, and said I got carded because I looked, uh, 30ish? No, didn't think so...

Jack Tarlin
08-11-2006, 14:38
Smile: There's no big secret about names here. I'm just not interested in using them here.....either the waitress' name, the names of anyone present, even the chief jerk in question. And for another thing, I'm not 100% sure of what his Trail Name really is. I'll certainly recognize the guy if I see him again, but I simply don't wanna get into the name thing here. It was the behavior that I was trying to do something about by starting this thread.....I have no plans to ruin the rest of anyone's trip, and nor should anyone else.

Bfitz: You are indeed mis-understanding the law; I thought I made it clear in my original post. In New Hampshire, a piece of identification becomes legally invalid when it has expired. Even if it was a perfectly legitimate piece of identification at the time it was issued, and even if the holder is above 21, in the eyes of the law, this does not matter. A licensed establishment is required to verify that everyone being served alcohol is 21 and can prove it, by showing specific sorts of VALID identification. Any young person has to verify their identity and age, so yeah, Bfitz, the restaurant staff was indeed obligated to card the guy. If a place is caught serving someone who is under age, over-served to the point of intoxication, using an altered identification, improperly using someone else's identification, or using identification that is invalid for any reason, the establishment can be cited and fined. So can the individual server (i.e. waitress or bartender). The fact that this kid was 21 and had a license is totally irrelevant. His identification was legally invalid in New Hampshire; he was politely informed of this; he continued to drink anyway.

And Skyline made a valid point. Most place have uniform policies in this regard precisely so they can't be accused of treating anyone unfairly. In short, young people WILL be carded, and the I.D. they present must not only be genuine, it must be legally valid.

Neither the Hanover restaurant in question nor any of its staff did anything wrong here.

Sly
08-11-2006, 14:47
I think you have to be kinda dense not to be carrying a valid ID on an extended trip. I can think of lots of times when you may need one and virtually no one will accept an invalid one.

Besides having a cocktail, try renting a car or cash a check/MO without a valid ID.

Since the hiker in question, showed his azz he deserves no sympathy.

Doctari
08-11-2006, 15:15
Any person or group treated that way can have long term affect on those that follow. sadly usually the damage is done by those who "Will never be this way again." So don't have to suffer the consequences of their actions.

Sometimes though, revenge is sweet. Reverse situation:
My friends & I frequented a local steak house (A chain / franchise) for years during our Ren Fest season every Sunday. These 8 or 9 Sundays made this steak house the #1 of this franchise for the state for 4 years in a row, we gave them so much business (almost guaranteed 150 to 200 person per Sunday). Claude, the manager treated us GREAT, & we respected him, even helping his staff clean up afterwards. Claude got fired for "taking out the garbage" (True, the owner fired him for that!)
This was done "Off season" so we didn't find out about it till the following year, then not till almost end of season. BUT, we knew something was wrong; Claude was gone, the food went from good to barely tolerable (Claude had taken extra measures with the canned / pre packaged stuff. Butter in the canned corn & etc.) Surely service, WRONG STEAK ORDERS (this never happened with Claude) The final straw was the owner came up & said " you rennies will no longer get any steak over 4 OZ, I'm tired of you sending them back" We told him "get the order right & we won't send them back!". That was the last time our group went to this steak house, they struggled thru the next year, but closed 1/2 way thru our season. It's now a Mexican place, we still won't patronize it just in case of same owners. BW3 now welcomes us with open arms, sets aside a private room for us (we are loud, 3 sober "rennies" can drown out any 10 drunk hikers, no effort) & treat us like Claude did: with open arms & respect. We treat them well & tip generously, and at least try to keep the noise to a minimum.

Please, don't let "Our" trail services be closed to us because of your bad behavior. Places who put up with "special people" are rare, we need every one of them. Be Claude, not his replacement. Or your "steak house" may close forever. If a sign goes up "No hikers" it will affect hikers for years. A Sad day indeed.



We miss you Claude.



Doctari.

chief
08-11-2006, 15:21
Smile: There's no big secret about names here. I'm just not interested in using them here.....either the waitress' name, the names of anyone present, even the chief jerk in question. And for another thing, I'm not 100% sure of what his Trail Name really is. I'll certainly recognize the guy if I see him again, but I simply don't wanna get into the name thing here. It was the behavior that I was trying to do something about by starting this thread.....I have no plans to ruin the rest of anyone's trip, and nor should anyone else.
So, you don't really know the guy's name, but you'd recognize him? All this from a seconghand account? Something is beginning to smell here!

generoll
08-11-2006, 18:08
I'm with Jack on this one. The point was well stated and clear. The offenders name is irrelevant. No reason for him to fabricate a story.

FLHiker
08-11-2006, 18:13
Let me see if I have read this correctly. You think this person should be outed for their past behavior? If they are WB members, should we connect their login names with their trail names?

Does the term libel come to mind?

Smile
08-11-2006, 19:01
I do not believe that Jack would fabricate a story.

I just find it strange that when there is, for example, a theif on trail, the trail name is given and even photos might be available somewhere, so that folks could be aware.

What is the point of posting a story like this, if the person is not identified, so that possibly, someone out there might have a word or two with them about their behavior....or it is OK?

I thought that future hikers could be affected by one person's ignorance, and perhaps somebody out there might speak with them about it if they were known, and the occasion arose.

I personally don't really care who it is, it is the idea of posting such a story that riles other hikers up - who don't condone the behavior - but have a mystery hiker who may never have an opportunity to be brought to task for behavior that affects many behind him, not to mention the gal who was waiting on them in good faith.

If you don't know the name, though, that's okay, no worries mate.
I do not question that it happened, just that why bring it up if you don't want to name the hiker.

It's all cool - we all here seem to agree that each year, businesses are turned off by the actions of the few, and that affects us all out there, somewhere, someway.

Sometimes it is just plain ignorance, but if you don't know who did it - they will never have an opportunity to hear from others that actions like that in the future will affect others.

FLHiker
08-11-2006, 19:09
It's all cool - we all here seem to agree that each year, businesses are turned off by the actions of the few, and that affects us all out there, somewhere, someway.


Right-on - the original post was not aimed at degrading an individual (how many of us have had a few nights out drinking that we would like to forget, or hope our friends would forget about our behaviour - -

-

-:-?

-

-:-?

wait -

- :-?

-

-

-:-?

still thinking-

-

-

-

-wow - allot!)

anyways, back to my point, the post was to get us all to think about the fragile balance between embracing hikers and hating hikers, and what we all could do to protect this.

Smile
08-11-2006, 19:13
I agree FLHiker.

I think for the most part, hikers are terrific people, on trail and off. I have never seen this type of thing anywhere on the AT, just heard about it.

Although I have seen signs that say "no hikers", so obviously somebody got there before I did ;-)

Alligator
08-11-2006, 21:32
Does the term libel come to mind?What on earth are you talking about? I asked for a clarification from Smile. I wasn't at all concerned that Jack didn't post the guys name, I agree with his position and reason not to.

The point of the post was to ask hikers to not behave as the guy did. It was not to form a posse.

fiddlehead
08-11-2006, 21:40
Sometime's it amazes me that waitresses and restaurants owners do put up with us. I remember being at the 3 C's just north of Port Clinton back in 95 i think it was, and the guy i was hiking with blocked up the toilet cause he ate 3 breakfasts (it's called 3 c's right?) there was s--t all over the floor as the toilet overran, we all stank like hikers, and the waitress went in and helped him clean it up. Now think about it, how many years would you still be enjoying hikers if this stuff happens a lot?
I also remember Helen the old owner of the Port Clinton Hotel who has since died. My cousin married her grandaughter and near the end of her life, he helped out a lot in there. Well he and i would argue about hikers. He said: #1/ they really stink! #2/ They don't tip well usually #3/ They are the quickest customers to complain, as if they were owed something And #4/ They are the same as homeless people. Now i would argue with him and tell him he had to go out and try hiking to really understand where they are coming from. but i must admit, he had some valid arguments. Helen always loved the hikers though and i understand that the new owners are pretty cool too.
I've seen many many places shut down or refuse access to hikers over the years simply because they are rude, high maintenance, dis-respectful folks, and i think Baltimore Jack is just trying to make future hikers aware of the problems facing these establishments along the trail.
Please respect these places and think about the fact that you are a prime example of an AT thru-hiker.

FLHiker
08-11-2006, 21:43
What on earth are you talking about? I asked for a clarification from Smile. I wasn't at all concerned that Jack didn't post the guys name, I agree with his position and reason not to.

The point of the post was to ask hikers to not behave as the guy did. It was not to form a posse.

Sorry,

I really quoted the wrong post - after a better review of the posts -

My point was that the origial post was not to nail a particular person, that could be derived as libel (either legally or just socially). my later post was better!!! - It was the behavior - not the person being criticized!!

Sorry for the confusion!!!

Jeff

weary
08-11-2006, 21:45
This is something I want to share with you guys, especially those planning to hike next year.

Last night, I went into a favorite local restaurant/bar, long known to be very hiker friendly. I ran into a friend who's worked there for several years; in the process, she's met and served hundreds of hikers.

A few nights ago, seems there was a large group of close to a dozen hikers who filled up her section. They took up several tables, were a little loud, and naturally stank up the joint, but neither she nor anyone else much cared; as I said, this is a very hiker-friendly place (Anywhere that lets you come in off the street fresh off the Trail WEARING your backpack obviously doesn't have a problem with hikers).

Everyone was having a fine time until it became known to the bar staff that one of the hikers had an expired I.D. Unfortunately, in the eyes of the law, this means it could NOT be used for identification purposes or to buy a drink. I know it sound like a crazy law, after all, it wasn't fake, it was merely out-of-date. But that's one of the things New Hampshire is strict about.....if it's expired, it ceases to be valid, and that's that. Also, being a college town, establishments get spot-checked all the time, i.e. an undercover cop or a State Liquor Inspector will enter a place, flash his badge, and randomly do an I.D. check. Underage patrons, or those with bad I.D.'s can get arrested or fined, but more to the point, so will the restaurant, and SO WILL THE SERVER. In short, some of the places in Hanover have gotten very strict about making sure your I.D. is legit, and they will absolutely not serve you if there's a problem with it. After all, would you risk a $1,000.00 fine for a stranger? No, I didn't think so.......
Jack if this is truly New Hampshire Law I suggest you take a year off from hiking and mount a campaign to remove that fraudulent message from NH lkicense plates, i.e. "Live Free or Die."

Weary

Alligator
08-11-2006, 21:45
Sorry,

I really quoted the wrong post - after a better review of the posts -

My point was that the origial post was not to nail a particular person, that could be derived as libel (either legally or just socially). my later post was better!!! - It was the behavior - not the person being criticized!!

Sorry for the confusion!!!

JeffOK, we're on the same page now, all is good.

cutman11
08-11-2006, 23:22
Unfortunately, in the long run, the lesson learned by the waitress and the establishment she works in is this:

Why take the chance of letting the the hiker without the ID stay in the first place? The answer would be to toss him out at the start instead of compromising and letting him stay, and if his hiking friends didnt like it, toss them out too BEFORE she has wasted her time serving them. There would be plenty of others to take their place with ID who would tip her and be glad they were served. It isnt as "hiker friendly", but with many more experiences like that, she will care much less about the hikers and more about getting "stiffed".

Frosty
08-11-2006, 23:46
Jack if this is truly New Hampshire Law I suggest you take a year off from hiking and mount a campaign to remove that fraudulent message from NH lkicense plates, i.e. "Live Free or Die."

WearyAs soon as Maine takes down the "The Way Life Should Be" sign. I escaped Maine and moved to New Hampshire in '89. Never regretted it, and would never move back. Nice people in Maine, nice land, but I've lived in a dozen states, and none are governed worse that Maine.

weary
08-12-2006, 08:30
As soon as Maine takes down the "The Way Life Should Be" sign. I escaped Maine and moved to New Hampshire in '89. Never regretted it, and would never move back. Nice people in Maine, nice land, but I've lived in a dozen states, and none are governed worse that Maine.
Well, let's see. What might some of these poor government policies be?

About 1960 Maine passed one of the first clean water laws in the nation. Everyone now praises the Federal Clean Water Law. It is essentially a rewrite of the Maine law passed a decade earlier.

AS a result, Maine was the first in the nation to have all it's paper mills equipped with water treatment systems. New Hampshire was still struggling to do so for another decade or two.

A mandatory shoreline zoning law adopted in 1970 to provide wildlife buffers around undeveloped lakes, rivers and streams.

The second state to ban billboards.

One of the first states to pass major bond issues to acquire public lands.

One of the first states to mandate returnable containers, even though the soft drink industry outspent proponents 20-1.

A consistent policy of sending people to Washington who become national leaders -- Margaret Chase Smith, Edmund Muskie, SEnator George Mitchell, SEnators Snowe and Collins.

I could continue, but Maine has been an environmental leader for nearly a half century.

Weary

hopefulhiker
08-12-2006, 08:37
one time in NJ I came off the mountain to a road crossing in 105 heat index conditions. There was a resturaunt/bar close to the trail. I was really thirsty and went in and ordered a sandwich. I asked if there were free refills and the waitress said " Sure we have rrefills". My bill for a burger and about 8 cokes was close to $20. The refills were a $1.50 a piece! Some places aren't really hiker friendly...

Smile
08-12-2006, 08:45
My bill for a burger and about 8 cokes was close to $20. The refills were a $1.50 a piece! Some places aren't really hiker friendly...

That's a bummer, wow $20! However be aware, not everywhere gives "free" refills, always good to ask ;-)

I don't think that makes a place unfriendly to hikers.

Frosty
08-12-2006, 10:31
I could continue, but Maine has been an environmental leader for nearly a half century.

WearyI said Maine had nice land and nice people. I spoke to the way it was governed, and the attitude of state government to the people. The well-to-do and entitled love it, I'll grant you that. It's the wage slaves and people trying to get along that suffer.

We are obviously seeing the state government's attitude toward its population from different viewpoints, so let's just agree to disagree.

Jack Tarlin
08-12-2006, 12:06
Gee, Chief, the only thing that smells here is YOU.

If you doubt my word on any of this matter, you can write me privately, and I'll happily provide you with the name of the establishment, bartender, and waitress.

You can then contact them for confirmation of my story if you wish.

Then, once it's confirmed, you can write us back here and apologize for your last post.

Everything I said in my first post is true, and anyone who doubts this or wishes to call me a liar is welcome to do it to my face, I'm not hard to find.

Jack Tarlin
08-12-2006, 12:20
Just so there's no question on this....

I just tried to send Chief a private message; either he can't receive them at the moment, or he's not receiving them from me. But this is what I wrote:

Chief:

I don't apreciate people questioning my word on anything. I'm not known to be a bull****er and I don't need to make anything up to make a point on Whiteblaze. If you don't know that, then you don't yet know me.

If you're truly interested in this matter, and want to play boy detective, then I'll happily provide you with the name of the establishment, the waitress' name, the bartender's name who questioned the I.D. in the first place, and the owner's name, who also knows about this incident.

You can then contact them at your leisure to verify what I said in my first post.

Then you can write back to Whiteblaze and tell people what you discovered.

And then you can apologize to me for being a jerk.

Cordially,

Jack Tarlin
Hanover NH

rickb
08-12-2006, 15:02
Jack, I think Chief got confused about how you would "certainly recognize the guy if I see him again", since you weren't in the bar when everything went down.

Sometimes a litteral reading of what is posted misses the spirit of what is being said. No big deal, but I am sure other "hair splitters" thought the same. My guess is that you either knew the guy from an earlier encounter, or simply were writing a bit too fast.

English is an imperfect medium. No big deal.

bfitz
08-12-2006, 15:09
Something similiar happened at another well known well in PA. A underage female hiker (trail name unknown or I'd post it...) after being graciously allowed to hang out with the gang despite being underage was getting other hikers to buy her drinks. The poor girl working the bar was hoodwinked and almost lost her job because of it. The owners shut down early and kicked everyone out. At least no one was stupid enough to get unruly or flipped anyone off...but sheesh! We have to police eachother sometimes when it comes to this stuff.

weary
08-12-2006, 17:05
I said Maine had nice land and nice people. I spoke to the way it was governed, and the attitude of state government to the people. The well-to-do and entitled love it, I'll grant you that. It's the wage slaves and people trying to get along that suffer. .
Not different viewpoints. It's a matter of facts vs. myths. What state government attitude are you talking about? KIds in most states lost medical insurance coverage over the past decade. Maine was one of the few state's where medical coverage of kids increased -- by something like 50 percent, though I'll have to check the exact figure.

Incidently, Maine's minimum wage is significantly higher than the national minimum wage.

Weary

Frosty
08-12-2006, 18:04
Not different viewpoints. It's a matter of facts vs. myths.No, it's different viewpoints. Not everyone has the same experiences as everyone else, and there isn't anything you can say that will make it so.

You are a slick talker with an answer for everything, and you will out talk anyone here, I'm sure, but you can't change what is by saying the other person is wrong and dredging up all these reasons.

I remember when I was young, a car salesman convinced me that I could afford a car I really couldn't afford. Like you, he had an answer for everything, ready facts at his fingertips to disprove whatever I said. Like you, he was slick and could easily out talk me.

In the end, being young, I agreed that he must be right; he had all the "facts." But in spite of what he proved with his salesman-lawyer like talk, I was right. I couldn't afford the car.

The difference is now I recognize when someone is a slick talker with an array of "facts," real and half-truths and outright fabrications, at his fingertips to prove or disprove anything he wants.

I'm sure you can "prove" that the Maine legisture is whatever you want - good, bad,. or indifferent, and that Bush is a hero or a goat, and anything else you want to, but I don't care. I'm not 22 and so gullible anymore.

In an earlier post, I suggested that we agree to disagree, but you seem to feel it important that I be wrong.

So I'll agree to disagree, and you can oil your tongue and continue to prove white is black and black is white.

ocourse
08-12-2006, 18:41
There will always be folks who try to disregard the rules. Hmmm perhaps using foul words with stars falls into this category too. If the guy in the bar couldn't legally be in there, then the waitress failed to do her job. I would like to know what the law says about this, as I might be misunderstanding it. If that is the case, it seems she might be giving waitresses a bad name. Even worse is that the customer was caught several times drinking! I would think the server was negligent and could jeopardies the booze license. Being nice to someone isn't the same as doing the job properly. But I am assuming (refer back to the original post) that the law required the guy be removed since he had no proper ID. Is this correct?

Jack Tarlin
08-12-2006, 18:47
Letting the guy stay in the room is up to the individual establishment.

As for her being too lenient with the guy, perhaps you're right.

Were it up to me, I'd have tossed him out much sooner.

ocourse
08-12-2006, 18:50
oops "jeopardies" should be "jeopardize"

chief
08-12-2006, 22:32
Just so there's no question on this....
What smells is your embellishment. Had you stuck to your original story, there would be no question, at least not to me. You certainly had me believing every word, until the post I referenced, that is. If you think I called you a liar, that's fine with me. No bull****!

BTW, I've had PM's turned off going way back to our former admin. See, it's not all about you.

chief

Jack Tarlin
08-12-2006, 23:07
What smells is your insistence on beating this to death after I've already told you you're welcome to corroborate the story. Evidently you're more interested in questioning someone's integrity rather than verifying it.

Funny thing. I ran into my waitress friend in town today and actually showed her this thread.

In addition to being flattered at the offer to send her money (which she absolutely doesn't want!), she was gratified by the many kind words.

As to the folks who doubted the story took place, her comment was "What silly people....why on earth would anyone make up something like this?"

Silly people, indeed.

weary
08-13-2006, 00:16
No, it's different viewpoints. Not everyone has the same experiences as everyone else, and there isn't anything you can say that will make it so.

You are a slick talker with an answer for everything, and you will out talk anyone here, I'm sure, but you can't change what is by saying the other person is wrong and dredging up all these reasons.

I remember when I was young, a car salesman convinced me that I could afford a car I really couldn't afford. Like you, he had an answer for everything, ready facts at his fingertips to disprove whatever I said. Like you, he was slick and could easily out talk me.

In the end, being young, I agreed that he must be right; he had all the "facts." But in spite of what he proved with his salesman-lawyer like talk, I was right. I couldn't afford the car.

The difference is now I recognize when someone is a slick talker with an array of "facts," real and half-truths and outright fabrications, at his fingertips to prove or disprove anything he wants.

I'm sure you can "prove" that the Maine legisture is whatever you want - good, bad,. or indifferent, and that Bush is a hero or a goat, and anything else you want to, but I don't care. I'm not 22 and so gullible anymore.

In an earlier post, I suggested that we agree to disagree, but you seem to feel it important that I be wrong.

So I'll agree to disagree, and you can oil your tongue and continue to prove white is black and black is white.
Hmmm. A lengthy post. Not a single fact. Is it your point that you think Maine government is great for the wealthy, but not the "wage slaves" because a car salesman tried wrongly to convince you at age 22 that you could afford to buy a car?

It's not important that you be wrong. It is important that falsehoods dealing with government be answered. DEstructive ignorance and the big lie increasingly substitute for reasoned political debate these days.

I gather from your replies that you know nothing about Maine or its government. That you are just blabbering nonsensical impressions.

Weary

Michele
08-13-2006, 09:57
God..that's a horrible story...really pisses me off how people can be so wrapped up in their little world that they fail to see the bigger picture, and understand how your friend's livelihood depends on tips (not that she was going to become homeless over this, but come on!) Afterall, SHE didn't make up the law/rules!!

I too have survived through serving tables at one point in my life and let me tell you, that kind of crap is enough to make some people say "f" it and walk out. I hope if something like that ever happens next year, that I'm around, because I WILL say something to hikers who decide they are going to treat any of the towns people in such a disrespectful manner. We are guests, not celebrities. :mad:

Michele
08-13-2006, 09:59
Sorry everyone, that previous post was supposed to go under the "How to Poison a Well" thread....I have NO IDEA how that happened!!! :-?

Michele
08-13-2006, 10:01
ok...I think I need my morning coffee. :rolleyes:

Nean
08-13-2006, 10:23
Hmmm. DEstructive ignorance and the big lie increasingly substitute for reasoned political debate these days.

Weary

Funny, that was my experience w/in politics as well.:(

Almost There
08-13-2006, 10:24
We are guests, not celebrities. :mad:
As a section hiker I have to say that most thru's I have seen have shown respect to towns people. That being said there have been a few occassions where I have seen that "celebrity" attitude. Once when hiking, myself and another section got a shuttle with a thru female who let us pay for the shuttle, and never offered to throw in money. He was one of these older, kindly gentlemen who told us to pay what we thought was fair. He had been shuttling her a few times on slackpacks, obviously she thought she had paid him enough!:-?

The sad thing is, thru's are not celebrities, we all love doing this and that makes what they are doing an extended vacation in my eyes. Soldiers on leave deserve my special respect and perhaps something special for what they do. Hikers who think what they do is in some way close to such a status as this are major tools. When I have seen this behavior, not to shoot down younger hikers...but that is who it has been in my personal experience.

Michele, you said guests not celebrities. Not even celebrities are supposed to behave this way, they should be held to higher standards as they also could be seen as role models.

Hikers who behave in a negative manner should be treated as the moosecocks that they are.:mad:

Michele
08-13-2006, 10:40
I couldn't agree more w/you about the celebrities being held to a high standard due to being role models, I only used that comparison because so many celebrities walk around with this sense of entitlement as well, which makes me sick. I think my other concern is why that particular hiker couldn't still have a "good time" without the drink...I mean, if this is all supposed to be about the bond we form w/the hiking community, how does a beer suddenly become the pivotal item that determines if an experience was good or bad?

I wasn't put on this earth to kiss anyone's ass, nor was anyone put here to kiss mine. We're here to work together and respect one another. (although you wouldn't know it from world events)

I can't personally wait to get out there next year and practice what I'm preaching right now.....

Almost There
08-13-2006, 11:02
I think my other concern is why that particular hiker couldn't still have a "good time" without the drink...I mean, if this is all supposed to be about the bond we form w/the hiking community, how does a beer suddenly become the pivotal item that determines if an experience was good or bad?

Because "ALL" the cool kids were doing it!

Really, this is no different behavior(sneaking drinks) than college kids pull when not yet twenty one. However, when caught, you do the honorable thing and leave!!! I am taking it this guys was around 21 or 22. Let me know if I'm wrong Jack!!! I was kicked out of a bar when I was nineteen for drinking when I wasn't supposed to, when told to leave I left, even though many of my friends were still there, and I wouldn't have gotten belligerent as it would have called attention to my friends. As I got older I realized just how my actions might affect the workers, but at nineteen ...never having held a real job, nor having to worry about bills or real life problems, I didn't get it, nor would I have been able to.

All that being said, the behavior by him as he left and the others when it came to tipping...makes them all Moosecocks of the First Order!!!

Frosty
08-13-2006, 11:46
Apologies to Jack for highjacking his thread.

mdionne
08-13-2006, 12:31
every year there seems to be one or two...

everyone remembers the four pines incident, and more recently the two kids begging for money as early as hiawassee...

this happens every year.

i hiked with an alcoholic quite a bit the year i hiked, he was avoided by most hikers. two beers and he was flat out drunk, give him one shot and he was belligerent, amazing how chemicals interact with some people. when he was sober, i never knew a nicer, more sensitive person than he was.

one of his intentions for hiking the trail was to get away from alcohol. i've met several others that came to the trail in order to quit other things as well. alcohol and smoking were not overcome by anyone I knew that intended to quit.

i guess what i'm trying to wrap my head around is the attraction to the trail, initially, by problem hikers.

is it the sense of freedom that makes hikers act out in ways that they might not otherwise off the trail?

Just Jeff
08-13-2006, 12:38
I think they believe it'll be a more wilderness experience, where they can get away from it all and into a more healthy environment. Then they get there and realize it can be more of a party environment than home.

generoll
08-13-2006, 14:58
When I hiked the section from Unicoi to Dicks Creek I shared the Tray Mountain shelter with a southbounder who insisted that thru hikers had priority for shelter space. We weren't over crowded and he wasn't a particularly bothersome person. In fact when he got up very early in the morning he left so quietly that I never heard him leave.

My only point is that at least some thru hikers develop an 'entitlement' mentality and this may be not all their fault. Well meaning persons who out of the kindness of their hearts go out of their way to help them may also be partially responsible. I have no clue how to correct this or if it is correctable. I merely pass on the observation.

chief
08-14-2006, 10:28
What smells is your insistence on beating this to death after I've already told you you're welcome to corroborate the story. Evidently you're more interested in questioning someone's integrity rather than verifying it.

Funny thing. I ran into my waitress friend in town today and actually showed her this thread.

In addition to being flattered at the offer to send her money (which she absolutely doesn't want!), she was gratified by the many kind words.

As to the folks who doubted the story took place, her comment was "What silly people....why on earth would anyone make up something like this?"

Silly people, indeed.
What folks doubted it took place? You related a secondhand story, which seemed perfectly plausable. Then you placed yourself in the story by saying you'd recognize the guy. Kinda like doctoring photos, don't you think?

You're well known on WB for calling people out when you believe the've mis-spoken. Well, your turn. Anyways, 'nuff said!

Jack Tarlin
08-14-2006, 13:21
Geez, you're an idiot.

I've told you several times now how easily you can corroborate this whole thing.

If you really doubt my word, you can check it out, then get back to us, and tell us you feel bad about making as ass out of yourself.

You're obviously more interested in slamming me than you are in the truth of the matter.

You believe I've mis-spoken, and you take pleasure in publicly saying so, but you've no interest whatsoevr in really knowing what happened.

That's pretty silly, Chief.

bfitz
08-14-2006, 17:58
Regardless of the details, everyone should avoid being an ass whenever they can. Additionally, everyone should try to help ameliorate the effects of bad behavior on the wells we all share...if someone offends the waitress a kind comment or extra tip from someone else (even if they played no part in the incident) goes a long way towards keeping the poison out of the well. To some extent we are are all responsible for eachother.

Ridge
08-14-2006, 20:45
A lone hiker checks into a motel, single rate, next thing 4 or 5 more hikers are staying the night too. Next morning, new manager sees the crowd pile into the free breakfast buffet, goes to the room that they had been in, total disaster. Pizza Boxes and Beer containers and a bunch of trash, TP and towels also missing. He discovered the night mgr had let the lone guy pay cash, thus he was stuck without a credit card to charge to. I'll bet the policy of that "Poisoned Well" changed fast. Some motels will inform hikers that there is no room available.

FLHiker
08-14-2006, 21:32
A lone hiker checks into a motel, single rate, next thing 4 or 5 more hikers are staying the night too. Next morning, new manager sees the crowd pile into the free breakfast buffet, goes to the room that they had been in, total disaster. Pizza Boxes and Beer containers and a bunch of trash, TP and towels also missing. He discovered the night mgr had let the lone guy pay cash, thus he was stuck without a credit card to charge to. I'll bet the policy of that "Poisoned Well" changed fast. Some motels will inform hikers that there is no room available.

I swear to god, I didn't know they were going to bring those pizzas and that beer into my room - I just thought they wanted to use the phone.

They said they were with the band.

:D

Nean
08-14-2006, 21:49
Geez, you're an idiot.

I would never call you an idiot!:eek: I'd suggest that smokin' crack and posting on WB is for the few and far between. :D You must not know that Jack is all over the trail and has many opportunities to know who this joker is, regardless of being there the night of the incident.:-? You are missing the point in order to make a point that only makes you look like you don't have a clue. Give it a rest there Chief.;)

Smile
08-14-2006, 22:23
every year there seems to be one or two...
everyone remembers the four pines incident, and more recently the two kids begging for money as early as hiawassee...this happens every year.
i hiked with an alcoholic quite a bit the year i hiked, he was avoided by most hikers.

Yes, usually hikers can avoid people like this on trail and be aware of who they are. It is usually no mystery.

I like it best out on the trail, when you can deal with these issues in real time, with those who are hiking the same time/section that you are - news and names travel fast.

That is one of the great things about the social strengths of the trail community is the general consensus of what is OK and not OK about an individual. Folks are quick to "stay away" or pass the word along of someone whose behavior is out of bounds.

This is not always found in society in general, but on trail it seems that it is very important, and a very cool way to live while you are 'out there' on trail. After all there are dangers and situations where it's good to know who you can or can not count on - or who you do or do not want to share a room with, ride with, etc.

Jack Tarlin
08-15-2006, 11:51
Ridge's comment above (#103) is one hundred per cent on the money.

I saw exactly this sort of thing happening this year in motels in Hiawassee,
Franklin, Gatlinburg, Pearisburg, and especially Waynesboro. Hell, it happened at the Doyle, where a room is only twenty dollars a night.

Very few facilities or businesses start out being un-friendly to hikers.

This is something they learn.

And guess who their teacher is.

D'Artagnan
08-15-2006, 13:47
Look at the demographics of the majority of these offenders. I would venture most are 18 to 24. By and large, they are white, college-educated, suburbanite, and affluent. Many of them are offspring of the wealthiest generation this country has ever produced. They have bred into them a sense of entitlement. Most of what they have has been given to them with little or no effort on their own. With this as their foundation, should we really be surprised at the behavior noted in this thread?

I am by no means attempting to excuse the behavior described at the outset of this thread. Nor am I implying all members of this generation share the same ill traits. I simply point out the origins of what so many of us find truly offensive and unacceptable. Until these folks realize the world does not owe them anything, in other words, until they grow up -- assuming they ever do -- they will never view their behavior in any light other than normal.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-15-2006, 13:58
Look at the demographics of the majority of these offenders. I would venture most are 18 to 24. By and large, they are white, college-educated, suburbanite, and affluent. Many of them are offspring of the wealthiest generation this country has ever produced. They have bred into them a sense of entitlement.The kids (some of my grandchildren are in their mid-20's so anything under 25 is a kid to me) I've met on the trail have not demonstrated troublesome attitudes and behaviors as a general rule. I've had far more trouble from middle age guys who are recently retired from the military. They seem to think that the military trains people in the best way to backpack (best gear, packing methods, techniques) and you had danmed-well better agree or you're a bad American :rolleyes:.

Just Jeff
08-15-2006, 14:17
They seem to think that the military trains people in the best way to backpack (best gear, packing methods, techniques) and you had danmed-well better agree or you're a bad American :rolleyes:.

Typical. Can't trust those damn military types. Especially if they're in a hammock. ;)

Heater
08-15-2006, 14:19
Typical. Can't trust those damn military types. Especially if they're in a hammock. ;)

Can't trust any hammock hangers, period. :)

...or anyone over 30. :-?

Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-15-2006, 14:25
I'm married to retired military guy so I know they aren't all like this, but they honestly are the group that I've had the most trouble with on the trail in regard to feeling superior / entitled to special treatment.

Jack Tarlin
08-15-2006, 14:34
Actually, D'Artagnan, it's easy to blame the younger hikers, as they tend to travel in groups, and they tend to extend their town stops.

But the worst thing I heard about in recent years was a thru-hiker assaulting the owner of one of the friendliest motels on the Trail because he claimed she'd mis-placed his maildrop. He's real lucky her husband or sons weren't there at the time, or he'd have been a dead man, plain and simple. The guy in question was a mid-western politician, probably over sixty.

You don't have to be a kid to be a jerk.

Rain Man
08-15-2006, 14:44
Look at the demographics of the majority of these offenders. ...

Actually, I believe a much more common "demographic" is use/abuse of the drug alcohol. Whether mouthing off to a waitress, losing one's own pack, getting one's self killed, or generally being an ass, the recitals on WhiteBlaze of trail problems involving alcohol seem to constitute a demographic of sorts.

I almost said that we'd never know until a study was done, but then I remembered that lots of studies have proven the close connection between alcohol use/abuse and all sorts of social problems.

I suppose the Trail is no different.

Rain:sunMan

.

Alligator
08-15-2006, 14:57
Actually, I believe a much more common "demographic" is use/abuse of the drug alcohol. Whether mouthing off to a waitress, losing one's own pack, getting one's self killed, or generally being an ass, the recitals on WhiteBlaze of trail problems involving alcohol seem to constitute a demographic of sorts.

I almost said that we'd never know until a study was done, but then I remembered that lots of studies have proven the close connection between alcohol use/abuse and all sorts of social problems.

I suppose the Trail is no different.

Rain:sunMan

.Well Rain Man, that's an unusual position to hold considering you recently promoted a hiker feed with free beer.

Seeing how not much is recorded regarding the background of these offenders, sweeping generalizations about their demographics is considerably weak at best.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-15-2006, 15:06
Both alcohol and drugs tend decrease social inhibitions so it would make sense that people who are under the influence would be arseholes more often than people who aren't.

Alligator
08-15-2006, 15:11
Both alcohol and drugs tend decrease social inhibitions so it would make sense that people who are under the influence would be arseholes more often than people who aren't.That works both ways. For instance, a guy in Germany last week (two weeks ago?) was intoxicated and was handing out his life savings to people.

Ever heard this one, "I love you man, like a brother" *sob*.

saimyoji
08-15-2006, 15:15
"Alcohol makes you be more honest." Total poppycock.

saimyoji
08-15-2006, 15:21
"Alcohol makes you be more honest." Total poppycock.

What I mean is that alcohol affects people in different ways, as has been discussed here on WB in a number of different threads, it does not always amplify your personality or make you more honest. I have to agree with RM that many problems are exacerbated (sp?) by alcohol. But many potentially bad situations have been rescued by people finding common ground in sharing a few beers.

D'Artagnan
08-15-2006, 15:23
The guy in question was a mid-western politician, probably over sixty.

You don't have to be a kid to be a jerk.



True, Jack. Incidentally, your post reminds me of a quote I read recently:

"Politicians are like diapers. They should both be changed frequently and for the same reason." -- Anonymous

I agree, not all young people are jerks and not all jerks are young people. (At least I hope not, since I still consider myself young.)

hopefulhiker
08-15-2006, 15:30
I am glad that I don't drink...

saimyoji
08-15-2006, 15:38
I'm drunk now....:D

hammock engineer
08-15-2006, 16:04
Alcohol just inhanses whatever emotion you are feeling. If you are a jerk you will become a bigger jerk, if you are fun to be around you will become funner to be around. It turns off that little voice telling not to do things. Sometimes good, sometimes bad.

hammock engineer
08-15-2006, 16:05
I'm drunk now....:D

I'll be joining in a couple hours.

Just Jeff
08-15-2006, 16:08
Alcohol just inhanses whatever emotion you are feeling. If you are a jerk you will become a bigger jerk, if you are fun to be around you will become funner to be around. It turns off that little voice telling not to do things. Sometimes good, sometimes bad.

Sometimes. My dad used to drink a lot. He was rarely a jerk when he was sober, but he often got pretty belligerent when he was drunk. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen him get belligerent while sober.

saimyoji
08-15-2006, 16:11
Alcohol just inhanses whatever emotion you are feeling. If you are a jerk you will become a bigger jerk, if you are fun to be around you will become funner to be around. It turns off that little voice telling not to do things. Sometimes good, sometimes bad.

NONONONONONONONONONONO. Sorry for the explosive repsonse, but this is the same thing as "alcohol makes you more honest" or "alcohol makes you MORE YOU" or "alcohol amplifies your personality."

Alcohol affects everyone differently, and it affects you in different ways at different times. Its totally unpredictable. The only thing you can guarantee is that you'll not be yourself when drunk. For better or worse.

Dances with Mice
08-15-2006, 16:19
NONONONONONONONONONONO. Sorry for the explosive repsonse, but this is the same thing as "alcohol makes you more honest" or "alcohol makes you MORE YOU" or "alcohol amplifies your personality." ...
You sound pretty belligerant....

Alcohol never (http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h299/raystern/Ireland%202006/Ireland%202006%20Festival/FESTIVAL-RAY.jpg)affects me that way.

hammock engineer
08-15-2006, 16:21
I kind of agree with your counterpoints. I have not been exposed to anyone who was an alcoholic, so I can not speak for any chemical dependinces or how it effects them. All of the drinking that I see is more social.

I think it more of the little voice thing. If you are drunk and someone does something that makes you a little mad. You are going to get mad. Where as sober you might just let it go. The drunk mean people I have seen, have all had a temper to start with.


I have only been exposed to people 18-30 drinking in certain settings, and my parents/extended family never drank, so I will admit to a small sample space. This is just what I see from people I have been around.

The Old Fhart
08-15-2006, 16:28
Rain Man....."the recitals on WhiteBlaze of trail problems involving alcohol seem to constitute a demographic of sorts."It should be pointed out that the most offensive problems involving breaking the law, and unacceptable social behavior were committed continually by some one who doesn't condone drinking at all. It is true that a many problems involve drinking but that doesn't include leaving a hostel without paying and other similar problems where the hiker just thinks he (she) is too special to pay or obey the rules everyone is expected to observe.

bfitz
08-15-2006, 16:57
Hey, drinking and partying is fun. Getting trashed can be fun and also funny, and there are risks. Some people can't handle themselves in many different situations, including social situations, whether intoxicated or not is irrelevant and it stinks when they ruin everyone else's fun. But one thing I can't stand is when people look to blame alcohol or drugs to excuse someone's behavior, or to discourage others' good times. Que sera sera. Cars kill, guns kill, booze kills, bricks kill, pointy sticks kill, life kills, risk is everywhere....people are responsible for their own behavior, are responsible for handling themselves. If they can't handle themselves that's what consequences are for, wether social or legal. Folks should quit blaming inanimate objects and substances for people's behavior. Never happens when the behavior in question is good.....

generoll
08-15-2006, 17:15
..... I've had far more trouble from middle age guys who are recently retired from the military. They seem to think that the military trains people in the best way to backpack (best gear, packing methods, techniques) and you had danmed-well better agree or you're a bad American :rolleyes:.

This has to be the strangest comment I've seen on WB. Perhaps this thread has accomplished its' purpose and deserves to be put to rest.

saimyoji
08-15-2006, 17:21
I'll never accept an excuse such as: "I was drunk and didn't realize I (raped/killed/robbed/insulted/vomited on/threw paint on....posted something negative against) you" as an excuse. However, we must realize that what people end up doing while smashed is not what that person would do normally (while not drunk). Does this excuse the behavior? HELL NO!!! Thus the importance of personal responsibility. Know your limits, don't be an ass.


Oh, and if you think I'm an ass, its only because I'm drunk. :eek::D

mingo
08-15-2006, 18:07
It should be pointed out that the most offensive problems involving breaking the law, and unacceptable social behavior were committed continually by some one who doesn't condone drinking at all. .

ok, fart, i'll bite. what are you talking about?

Skidsteer
08-15-2006, 18:24
ok, fart, i'll bite. what are you talking about?

Start here (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10239&highlight=Warren+Doyle+answers):

saimyoji
08-15-2006, 18:29
Here we go again.....

Skidsteer
08-15-2006, 19:00
Here we go again.....

What?? I just answered the man's question. :D

Cedar Tree
08-23-2006, 14:44
Well, here you go:

http://www.trailjournals.com/fritel/

Real Name: Christopher Fritel
Trail Name: Lush

Email: [email protected]

All information that Lush himself furnished on his public trailjournals page.

I posted a note to Lush on his trailjournals guestbook and he responded today saying it was in fact a mix-up and he will be sending payment.
Cedar Tree

RockyTrail
08-23-2006, 15:50
I posted a note to Lush on his trailjournals guestbook and he responded today saying it was in fact a mix-up and he will be sending payment.
Cedar Tree

send him an invoice

http://www.trailjournals.com/photos.cfm?id=169276

Time To Fly 97
08-24-2006, 14:23
Just again with Waco, Texas.

Happy hiking!

TTF

dirt
09-04-2006, 18:41
You guys argue like your all married. Excellent job! :)

Heater
09-04-2006, 18:56
You guys argue like your all married. Excellent job! :)

Thank you, snookems...

Brrrb Oregon
09-04-2006, 19:33
Hey, drinking and partying is fun. Getting trashed can be fun and also funny, and there are risks. Some people can't handle themselves in many different situations, including social situations, whether intoxicated or not is irrelevant and it stinks when they ruin everyone else's fun. But one thing I can't stand is when people look to blame alcohol or drugs to excuse someone's behavior, or to discourage others' good times. Que sera sera. Cars kill, guns kill, booze kills, bricks kill, pointy sticks kill, life kills, risk is everywhere....people are responsible for their own behavior, are responsible for handling themselves. If they can't handle themselves that's what consequences are for, wether social or legal. Folks should quit blaming inanimate objects and substances for people's behavior. Never happens when the behavior in question is good.....

Well, seatbelts and helmets often get credit when people don't die in accidents. People thank fiber, aspirin, organically raised foods, and lots of water for their peppy good health. People on this forum have been really strongly encouraged to frequent the company of compasses, maps, waterproof matches...

I think you overstate our negativity towards our choice of inanimate associates. Some of them can be a bad influence. As with people, when too many people let them be that, the consequences sometimes affect everyone.

When we take our "personal" risks with alcohol, we also risk that there will be one more place on this earth where our "friend" alcohol is not welcome.

bfitz
09-05-2006, 22:51
Well, seatbelts and helmets often get credit when people don't die in accidents. People thank fiber, aspirin, organically raised foods, and lots of water for their peppy good health. People on this forum have been really strongly encouraged to frequent the company of compasses, maps, waterproof matches...

I think you overstate our negativity towards our choice of inanimate associates. Some of them can be a bad influence. As with people, when too many people let them be that, the consequences sometimes affect everyone.

When we take our "personal" risks with alcohol, we also risk that there will be one more place on this earth where our "friend" alcohol is not welcome.
I'm just saying people are responsible for their own behavior. Drugs, seat belts and metamucil are all inanimate objects and can only help or hurt you if you let them. It's not the helmet it's where you put it!

Brrrb Oregon
09-06-2006, 14:56
Hey, drinking and partying is fun. Getting trashed can be fun and also funny, and there are risks. Some people can't handle themselves in many different situations, including social situations, whether intoxicated or not is irrelevant and it stinks when they ruin everyone else's fun. But one thing I can't stand is when people look to blame alcohol or drugs to excuse someone's behavior, or to discourage others' good times.

This may come as a surprise, but drunks really aren't much fun except to other drunks. Getting trashed in someone else's restaurant usually isn't fun or funny to the people running the restaurant or to the other patrons who are still sober.

People who have been drinking is one thing. People who have gotten to the point that they are obviously trashed is another thing entirely. It is like being around a monkey playing with a loaded pistol. Even if he never does anything "wrong", only the monkey still thinks he's cute.


I'm just saying people are responsible for their own behavior. Drugs, seat belts and metamucil are all inanimate objects and can only help or hurt you if you let them. It's not the helmet it's where you put it!

This is true. Nevertheless, if enough people fail to handle a risky choice in an appropriate way, it should be no surprise when other people make the choice not to "risk" being treated like an inanimate object with no feelings....or to come to the opinion that hikers are one of those "things" that aren't worth the risk/reward ratio that their patronage brings.

If you have to get trashed to have fun--which doesn't say much to recommend your social skills--pick company that is going to enjoy you. Please spare the rest of us the public reputation that we're going to get from you. That is what I would call "responsible" drinking. As somebody who likes a beer or a glass of wine at the end of a long hike, I would appreciate it mightily, and I do mean that.

Alligator
09-06-2006, 15:14
...
If you have to get trashed to have fun--which doesn't say much to recommend your social skills-- ... Fitz has an astonishing array of social skills. Quite fascinating to see him in action actually.

I'll bet if you ran into him you'd have more than

...a beer or a glass of wine;) .

The Old Fhart
09-06-2006, 16:14
...a beer or a glass of wineA Book of Verses underneath the Bough,
A Jug of Wine, a Loaf of Bread—and Thou
Beside me singing in the Wilderness—
Oh, Wilderness were Paradise enow!

(Edward Fitzgerald’s-The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam)

Brrrb Oregon
09-06-2006, 16:35
Fitz has an astonishing array of social skills. Quite fascinating to see him in action actually.

I'll bet if you ran into him you'd have more than
;) .

Drunks are so unpredictable that the "monkey with a gun" analogy is not far from how they seem to me.

Call it a lack of imagination, but although I know some charming people who drink far too much--charming alcoholics, really--I have never found the love of drunkenness to be charming. I have also seen enough people "in action" while under the influence to last me a lifetime. They really are more fun when sober.

I'm sure you had only the most innocent kinds of fun in mind, though. Even when drunk, dear Fitz wouldn't be the kind who would hit on someone else's wife! ;)


A Book of Verses underneath the Bough,
A Jug of Wine, a Loaf of Bread—and Thou
Beside me singing in the Wilderness—
Oh, Wilderness were Paradise enow!

(Edward Fitzgerald’s-The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam)

Well, now, a poet who brings bread yet, too? You sound like fun!
Maybe we bring the spouses and bump that up to two jugs? :D
(Yes, it is official: If I'm any kind of fun, I'm not THAT kind of fun.)

Alligator
09-06-2006, 17:11
Drunks are so unpredictable that the "monkey with a gun" analogy is not far from how they seem to me.

Call it a lack of imagination, but although I know some charming people who drink far too much--charming alcoholics, really--I have never found the love of drunkenness to be charming. I have also seen enough people "in action" while under the influence to last me a lifetime. They really are more fun when sober.

I'm sure you had only the most innocent kinds of fun in mind, though. Even when drunk, dear Fitz wouldn't be the kind who would hit on someone else's wife! ;)
You mistake what I have written. I would bet that in a social situation after hiking, you would have more than one beer or one glass of wine with Fitz, literally. Like 2 or 3 :D . I wasn't speaking to "fun". You mentioned social skills. Fitz is an engaging, gregarious, extroverted type of fellow. He's very capable of exploring both sides of a conversation. Your comment on his lack of social skills was simply wrong. If you felt that I was implying that he was a Casanova, well that's off-base too. "In action" meaning, he works the room conversationally. I think he'd be that way regardless of sobriety.

The Old Fhart
09-06-2006, 17:26
"It is a well known scientific fact that some men are born 2 drinks below par." Whiskey Galore-British film, 1949

Brrrb Oregon
09-06-2006, 17:26
You mistake what I have written. I would bet that in a social situation after hiking, you would have more than one beer or one glass of wine with Fitz, literally. Like 2 or 3 :D . I wasn't speaking to "fun". You mentioned social skills. Fitz is an engaging, gregarious, extroverted type of fellow. He's very capable of exploring both sides of a conversation. Your comment on his lack of social skills was simply wrong. If you felt that I was implying that he was a Casanova, well that's off-base too. "In action" meaning, he works the room conversationally. I think he'd be that way regardless of sobriety.

We misunderstand each other. Whew!
You did say "more than....wink." A girl can't be too careful around winking drinkers. I have not had much luck with subtlety in rebuff, either. You have to be kind, yes, but not subtle. The poor guys are only working with a limited batch of neurons when they're that way...and sometimes, the normally bright ones are the worst. If they're hitting on women, I've found that the pessimistic neurons are usually turned off. You have to be clear.

As for Fitz (the poor pingpong in this example) somebody that has to get trashed to have fun needs to work on their social skills.

I'm sure that Fitz himself is engaging, gregarious, and altogether a charming gentleman, with or without the drinks. So sure, if I'm not driving...sure, I'll go for two or three! I hope I'm still welcome....and that you'll join us!

ed bell
09-06-2006, 17:39
A girl can't be too careful around winking drinkers.This reminded me of the SNL sketch where the retireing nuclear power plant boss gives his co-workers some parting advice: "You can never put too much water in a nuclear reactor". Emergency happens, they decide his advise means putting too much water in the reactor is bad, meltdown ensues.:D

Alligator
09-06-2006, 17:41
The three of us together:eek: . Now I am kidding that way.

The wink was more for Fitz. He has a 60s' ish sort of need to expand people's horizons through chemistry.

If we could get some PNW beer that would be great.

Sly
09-06-2006, 17:51
I'm sure that Fitz himself is engaging, gregarious, and altogether a charming gentleman, with or without the drinks. So sure, if I'm not driving...sure, I'll go for two or three! I hope I'm still welcome....and that you'll join us!

Road trip, party in Portland!

Alligator
09-06-2006, 17:54
"It is a well known scientific fact that some men are born 2 drinks below par." Whiskey Galore-British film, 1949This looks entertaining, I may have rent or buy it.

The Old Fhart
09-06-2006, 18:25
Alligator-"This looks entertaining, I may have rent or buy it."
Alligator, check the reviews (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/B000AV6SFA/ref=cm_cr_dp_pt/102-5260764-1534549?ie=UTF8&n=130&s=dvd) for Whiskey Galore and if you like this movie, rent "The Titfield Thunderbolt", also by the same studio.

Skidsteer
09-06-2006, 19:00
Alligator, check the reviews (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/B000AV6SFA/ref=cm_cr_dp_pt/102-5260764-1534549?ie=UTF8&n=130&s=dvd)for Whiskey Galore and if you like this movie, rent "The Titfield Thunderbolt", also by the same studio.

Worth a look based solely on the title, I should say.

bfitz
09-06-2006, 22:44
You mistake what I have written. I would bet that in a social situation after hiking, you would have more than one beer or one glass of wine with Fitz, literally. Like 2 or 3 :D . I wasn't speaking to "fun". You mentioned social skills. Fitz is an engaging, gregarious, extroverted type of fellow. He's very capable of exploring both sides of a conversation. Your comment on his lack of social skills was simply wrong. If you felt that I was implying that he was a Casanova, well that's off-base too. "In action" meaning, he works the room conversationally. I think he'd be that way regardless of sobriety.
Aww...shucks. :o

BooBoo
09-07-2006, 03:07
You'd think that by Hanover the Trail woulda put some humility into this kid.

Brrrb Oregon
09-08-2006, 17:01
A girl can't be too careful around winking drinkers.
This reminded me of the SNL sketch where the retireing nuclear power plant boss gives his co-workers some parting advice: "You can never put too much water in a nuclear reactor". Emergency happens, they decide his advise means putting too much water in the reactor is bad, meltdown ensues.:D

What the girl can't be too careful about depends entirely on what the girl is after, I suppose! ;)

bfitz
09-09-2006, 13:53
Never be too careful. You'll miss out on most of the fun!

StarLyte
09-09-2006, 14:28
Road trip, party in Portland!

I buy gas, but I get to film everyone.

From the short time I spent with bfitz and Alligator (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=11986&catid=searchresults&searchid=4848) this year, I was impressed with both of them. They are kind, intelligent, extremely sociable, and hey----good looking gentlemen. How's that for a package. One can even pick a banjo (http://gallery.backcountry.net/album69/HPIM4822).

I hope to see you guys at the Gathering. You're good people.

Brrrb Oregon
09-09-2006, 23:05
Never be too careful. You'll miss out on most of the fun!

Yeah...the idea is to try to be around for the fun next time, and in a mood to join in. :banana

As for guys, I'm too old and too wise for more than one. If you play your cards right, that's just right. If you don't, one is more than enough! :D


I buy gas, but I get to film everyone.

From the short time I spent with bfitz and Alligator (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=11986&catid=searchresults&searchid=4848) this year, I was impressed with both of them. They are kind, intelligent, extremely sociable, and hey----good looking gentlemen. How's that for a package. One can even pick a banjo (http://gallery.backcountry.net/album69/HPIM4822).

I hope to see you guys at the Gathering. You're good people.

If you make it to PDX, you call me up, and I'll buy the first round. As for the guy with the banjo, I'll buy for him as long as he can still play....and if need be, I'll find him a driver when he can't.

Have fun at the Gathering, y'all!

bfitz
09-09-2006, 23:44
Yeah...the idea is to try to be around for the fun next time, and in a mood to join in.
Don't be too reckless, either. Life's a balancing act. Nothing ventured nothing gained, eh?


As for the guy with the banjo, I'll buy for him as long as he can still play....and if need be, I'll find him a driver when he can't.
I'm always the last man standing.

Sly
09-09-2006, 23:50
I'm always the last man standing.
And the last one up. Last time I saw you, you were napping! Huh, what, what time is it? :p

bfitz
09-09-2006, 23:58
I'm always up when I need to be.
Never had a "hangover" either, whatever that is.

Just Jeff
09-10-2006, 01:36
...As for the guy with the banjo...

Hrm...I'm reading Deliverance at the moment. Banjo just made its first appearance at the gas station.

After this, I might get scared away if someone pulls out a banjo...:D

Panzer1
09-10-2006, 15:44
Anyway, this kid had an expired license, and while he whined about it while the law was being explained, it wasn't a real problem.

Did anyone ever find out why his license was expired? I bet there is a another story there.

Panzer

Brrrb Oregon
09-11-2006, 14:49
Don't be too reckless, either. Life's a balancing act. Nothing ventured nothing gained, eh?

I'm always the last man standing.

Competence to stand without falling down is a necessary but not sufficient prerequisite for driving in most states. I do not subscribe to the theory that a person is not drunk so long as they do not have to hold onto the grass to keep from falling off the earth.

I like to make friends, not organ donors. Drink or drive, not both. I will sit out after the first round of beers, if need be, but somebody has to be the driver. After all, it is not enough to be sober enough to drive. You have to be sober enough to take evasive action against the drunk coming the other direction! :eek:

Even if you're hiking, you ought to let someone else run the map and compass when you've had a snootful! :D


Hrm...I'm reading Deliverance at the moment. Banjo just made its first appearance at the gas station.

After this, I might get scared away if someone pulls out a banjo...:D

Guys! Honestly, this reminds me of the time there was a rapist in Berkeley who was attacking other men and pulling them into alleys to victimize them. When the guys at my lab suddenly felt that they couldn't walk the streets alone after dark, it was all they talked about.

Gentlemen, welcome to our world. It isn't much fun, is it? Talk about a well that's been thoroughly poisoned. Oh, well. Life isn't fair, but it's still good. I'll take that.

You can't let the spoilers keep you from dancing, can you?
No way! So bring on the banjos!:banana

bfitz
09-11-2006, 19:43
I like to make friends, not organ donors.
Well, I am an organ donor (I know...pity the poor sap who gets my liver!) but I wouldn't put other's lives in danger unintentionally. I wasn't suggesting we take a drive. Although I'd say even in this flammable subject there is a grey area.

Oh, well. Life isn't fair, but it's still good. I'll take that.

You can't let the spoilers keep you from dancing, can you?
No way! So bring on the banjos!:banana
That's the spirit!

saimyoji
09-11-2006, 19:53
...but I wouldn't put other's lives in danger unintentionally...

Hmmm...Would you put other people's lives in danger intentionally?:-?

bfitz
09-11-2006, 20:06
Only if, you know, it was absolutely necessary. I am never (or very rarely) unintentionally rude, either.

ed bell
09-11-2006, 20:17
Even if you're hiking, you ought to let someone else run the map and compass when you've had a snootful! :D I've got a story or two about that.:D

bfitz
09-11-2006, 20:20
I've got a snootful.

saimyoji
09-11-2006, 20:23
Only if, you know, it was absolutely necessary. I am never (or very rarely) unintentionally rude, either.

Myself I prefer not to be rude when I probably should be. That way, when the other person realizes that I could have been rude, but chose not to, they are thankful. And I feel better about myself for not being rude, even though I could have been. The rest of the time I just can't help myself. :D

bfitz
09-11-2006, 20:28
That's the best way to be. Sometimes, though, it is a moral obligation. It's what I think of as altruistic rudeness. In service of the public good.

Brrrb Oregon
09-11-2006, 20:45
I've got a snootful.

I will believe you...but I bet that you don't need it to have fun and you are still charming. ;)


Only if, you know, it was absolutely necessary. I am never (or very rarely) unintentionally rude, either.

That's the best way to be. Sometimes, though, it is a moral obligation. It's what I think of as altruistic rudeness. In service of the public good.

I will believe that because of all the glowing reports I have heard about you. Let us say for the record, though, that most of the unintentionally rude people in the world have no idea that they are being rude....and most of them are on vacation in somebody else's town at the time. :eek: Anybody here who's ever gone overseas and felt tempted to play down their American citizenship, please raise their hand!

When in doubt....be as nice as if your grandma owned the place. You know, the large woman who laughs alot but serves as her own bouncer. If that pours ice water in your spaghetti, people, you're probably less polite than you lead yourself to believe. :rolleyes:

The goal is that the people who come after us won't have to wish they could hide the fact that they're hikers! :cool:

bfitz
09-11-2006, 20:56
I meant a snootful of stories.:D

Anybody here who's ever gone overseas and felt tempted to play down their American citizenship, please raise their hand!Never!
Neither while growing up overseas, nor while visiting. I have found that Americans are actually very much loved. At least by the time I leave.;)

Don't misread my winking!

saimyoji
09-11-2006, 21:10
Neither while growing up overseas, nor while visiting.

Interesting. Care to elaborate?

Brrrb Oregon
09-11-2006, 22:16
I meant a snootful of stories.:D

You keep your stories up your nose? I'll bet that is a snootful!

Never!
Neither while growing up overseas, nor while visiting. I have found that Americans are actually very much loved. At least by the time I leave.;)

Don't misread my winking!

Yes, I know about your winking. You're ok. None of the males in my family are going to shoot you. (No promises with the papas you meet on vacation!)

I have European and Latin friends who don't have much of an opinion of American foreign policy or American tour groups. My MIL was on a group trip and said she would have liked to crawl under a chair at the behavior of some of the people touring with her....their sense of entitlement was appalling. This thread's story about how the hikers treated that waitress brought that kind of behavior to mind.

I think that the behavior that comes out when groups of travellers think they are being put upon is where things can really go out of bounds. Those who travel with a sense of entitlement are going to be in that category quite often!

Having money to spend buys things and buys services. It does not buy you the right to mistreat anyone. Gracious hospitality is a great gift, even if you find it in a commercial establishment. It should be treated as such....as I am sure you do.

That is why people love you so much!

bfitz
09-11-2006, 22:36
Having money to spend buys things and buys services. It does not buy you the right to mistreat anyone. Gracious hospitality is a great gift, even if you find it in a commercial establishment.You said it!

That is why people love you so much!
:o .... flustered....but grinning:D !

bfitz
09-12-2006, 20:56
Interesting. Care to elaborate?
Mostly as a kid, Dad's job sent us places...Ireland, Kenya, Egypt, Israel, India, UK, The Netherlands, not to mention a little Mexico and a french-filled Club Med in the bahamas once and Amsterdam (a favorite, and full of europeans and others from everywhere) the thanksgiving after 9-11 because tickets were cheap as heck, plus had a french girlfriend once ...I'm pretty sure they all knew I was American. The thing I noticed most about Europe is that line etiquette is often missing (as in, the line starts here and no cutting!)

Pacific Tortuga
03-03-2007, 15:33
This is a great post and I just wanted to say I hope ALL 2007 hikers read it. Stinky, earthy, big eaters, seperate checks, marginal tippers and establishments keep the welcome sign on.

Hikers are good for the economy but we need to remember to show respect now and for the future trail community hikers . Amen, and pass the home made buiskets and gravey.

Cedar Tree
03-23-2007, 21:03
I tell ya I think this class is one of the worst I've seen or heard of. For the first time during my short Packa tenure, I was ripped off at Trail Days by a Thruhiker named LUSH. He told me he wanted to pay with a credit card, which I can only accept via Paypal. So he left and supposedly went to the Library and paid via paypal. So trustingly, I gave him a Packa, and when I got home, no payment. So if any of you meet a guy name LUSH, tell him he owes me $110, he's a sorry, pitiful excuse for a hiker, and he is a black mark on the whole hiker community. I would not be surprised at all to hear the hiker in Jack's story is LUSH. Loser.
Cedar Tree

Lush recently returned the Packa I gave him at trail days. It looked like it had not been used. Maybe that's why he never paid. But still, he told me he paid when in truth he had not. No note or anything in the package, just the packa.
Just wanted to update my rant on Lush.
CT

oldfivetango
03-24-2007, 13:40
Wow, guys, personally I think that's a lovely idea, but knowing her for several years, I can safely say that's the LAST thing she'd want, which is why I deliberately left out her name, where she works, etc., tho it's not too hard to figure out if you know Hanover.

As she herself said, it's not about the money. It's about respect, and treating people well.....and what you sometimes get back in return.

She's a great person, and this one episode will absolutely NOT affect the way she treats hikers in the future. In fact, there were hikers there last night, and I saw her serve them, with a smile, all evening long. That's her nature.

As one travels the world, one stumbles over the occasional a******, but if my friend's behavior is any indication, you just smile thru it, and keep on about your business. I honestly believe most people are genuinely good, and life's too short to worry about the rest.

The response to this thread is gratifying, and I appreciate the comments made thus far.

Jack-you could give her a ficticious name but the correct address of the
restaurant.Those of us at WB could send money in care of her.She could
then either keep it or donate it to a worthy charity like some poor kid who
needs an operation like I see at convenience stores quite frequently.It would be a good cause and you never know,word may even get around town;especially if she notified the local paper.Just my two conservative
cents worth.
Oldfivetango

Jack Tarlin
03-24-2007, 15:31
Old dead issue.

She still works there, she still likes hikers, she realizes that in any group of people there's the occcasional a******; but I'm sure she doesn't want anything from anyone, especially at this late date.

I'll be going there tonight around 9 for my goodbye party and will leave a nice tip, but thanx for the thought, OFT!

To the 2007 people: Five Olde Nugget Alley in Hanover is perhaps the most hiker-friendly restaurant/bar on the Trail.

Do your bit to help keep it that way! (And this goes for every other establishment on the Trail as well!)

strnorm
03-24-2007, 17:11
some people you can dress up but you cant take them to town. like lw said he needs an attitide adjustment

DavidNH
03-24-2007, 17:27
Jack,

An excellent post! Than You for writing it!

It is really sad that these hikers, or any hikers, would act this way.

One can only hope that this was an isolated incident!

David

Jack Tarlin
03-24-2007, 17:51
Isolated?

Well, if you mean is there at least one group of jerks there every season who make all the hikers look terrible, well yeah, it was sort of isolated.

And the same thing happens at EVERY restaurant near the Trail sooner or later.

Whis is why I thought this thread was kinda important, especially for the new guys.

Bravo
03-24-2007, 23:21
Great thread. I always tip well everywhere. As a matter of fact I had to pick up a cake today. I've never done that before so I asked the cake lady if she's normally tipped. She said, "No, but I'll take tips." So I tipped her.

Hikers suck but I will rant for a second. My lady and I were at a grocery store a few weeks ago. I tried to buy a six pack. She carded me which I expected. I'm 25 and look like I'm 12. I showed her my Legal ID.(I was buying) Then she asked for my lady's ID. She didn't have it. She is 41. Maybe she doesn't look 41 but she certainly isn't underage. She colors her hair but you could see her grey roots for Christ's sake. This woman on a power trip would not sell to us.

I showed a legal ID of 25. My lady doesn't look under 33-35 to anyone with 2 eyes. But no beer. And it was beer. Not a bottle of hard alcohol. What the hell are 2 people gonna do with a 6 pack? Anyway, I had to rant.

If I were the waiter I would have kicked the dude out long before the waitress did. That being said, if you look over 21 and show an ID you should be served. Waitresses do not work for the FBI or CIA. They're not trained in marking fake ID's. If she asked then she did her job.

Once again, I agree that hikers suck. Still if he hed an ID and she served him this thread would have never have existed.

Jester2000
03-26-2007, 20:21
I think my other concern is why that particular hiker couldn't still have a "good time" without the drink.

Perhaps he could but chose not to.


Actually, I believe a much more common "demographic" is use/abuse of the drug alcohol.

Actually, I've found that the one common thread in all of the stories I hear about hikers behaving badly is that they are hikers. Rarely do I hear hikers or business owners telling stories of bad hikers where the main problem person is a non-hiker.

That being said, I think it would be an excellent idea, in order to keep businesses friendly to hikers, to discourage or even ban hiking on the AT.

Jack -- excellent post, still relevant today. And, unfortunately, probably still relevant the year after that, and so on.

As for offering her a friendly jester, I can't see why her having a boyfriend would matter. It don't mean a thing if she ain't got that bling.

beeman
08-15-2007, 13:59
every year there seems to be one or two...



i hiked with an alcoholic quite a bit the year i hiked, he was avoided by most hikers. two beers and he was flat out drunk, give him one shot and he was belligerent, amazing how chemicals interact with some people. when he was sober, i never knew a nicer, more sensitive person than he was.

one of his intentions for hiking the trail was to get away from alcohol. i've met several others that came to the trail in order to quit other things as well. alcohol and smoking were not overcome by anyone I knew that intended to quit.

i guess what i'm trying to wrap my head around is the attraction to the trail, initially, by problem hikers.

is it the sense of freedom that makes hikers act out in ways that they might not otherwise off the trail?

With drug addicts and alcoholics It's called taking a "geographical cure". It never works but hey, addicts are insane. It's part of the disease.

JAK
08-15-2007, 14:49
Places that serve alcohol live by the sword and die by the sword.

superman
08-15-2007, 18:03
FWIW Last winter I went to a Celtics game and went into a bar in Boston with my son that is 31 years old. We were both carded at the door. Most of the patrons of that bar are college students or of that age group. It was a bar that my son had frequented when he went to Bentley College. We had a good time getting carded as the carder politely explained that it was just standard policy. We casually sipped a beer and watched the young people get stupider with every drink. The bar has many years of dealing with that younger age group and had a full range of policies for dealing with any alcohol-induced stupidity. I believe that the staff was trained to deal with those issues and they were absolutely fast and effective in untangling patron problems. I couldn't tell if there were hikers among the young patrons.

Jack Tarlin
08-15-2007, 18:05
JAK--

Remarkably stupid post.

The fact that an establishment does or doers not serve alcohol does not give patrons the right to act like boors when they visit.

Customers are expected to treat establishments and servers with respect, period. This is especially true when THEIR behavior has a direct impact on how their contemporaries or companions will be treated when they arrive later on. In other words, don't poison the well for other people.......nobody has the right to act like a jerk. Going out and backpacking for 6 months doesn't bestow any special rights or privileges, and it doesn't absolve anyone from proper or respectful behavior.

The fact that a place has a liquor license doesn't inherently grant patrons the right to act like schmucks.

If you disagree, tell us why.

(And I bet you've never been a waiter or a bartender either, but that's another post).

Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-15-2007, 18:36
With drug addicts and alcoholics It's called taking a "geographical cure". It never works but hey, addicts are insane. It's part of the disease.However, sometimes people find a higher power as a result of hiking the trail and that often does lead to a 'cure'. :sun

superman
08-15-2007, 18:55
FWIW Last winter I went to a Celtics game and went into a bar in Boston with my son that is 31 years old. We were both carded at the door. Most of the patrons of that bar are college students or of that age group. It was a bar that my son had frequented when he went to BentleyCollege. We had a good time getting carded as the carder politely explained that it was just standard policy. We casually sipped a beer and watched the young people get stupider with every drink. The bar has many years of dealing with that younger age group and had a full range of policies for dealing with any alcohol-induced stupidity. I believe that the staff was trained to deal with those issues and they were absolutely fast and effective in untangling patron problems. I couldn't tell if there were hikers among the young patrons.


I should have explained my point. Some establishments cater to a certain clientele and are prepared for the contingencies. Most places aren't as prepared for it because it's not common or expected behavior. The young people in that bar my son and I were in will likely grow out of that faze as they age. On the other hand, some of them will just be older fools and some will go on to be alcoholics (with or without a higher force :) ).

saimyoji
08-15-2007, 19:19
I should have explained my point. Some establishments cater to a certain clientele and are prepared for the contingencies. Most places aren't as prepared for it because it's not common or expected behavior. The young people in that bar my son and I were in will likely grow out of that faze as they age. On the other hand, some of them will just be older fools and some will go on to be alcoholics (with or without a higher force :) ).


No, you made your point well enough the first time. :)

JAK
08-15-2007, 20:08
JAK--

Remarkably stupid post.

The fact that an establishment does or doers not serve alcohol does not give patrons the right to act like boors when they visit.

Customers are expected to treat establishments and servers with respect, period. This is especially true when THEIR behavior has a direct impact on how their contemporaries or companions will be treated when they arrive later on. In other words, don't poison the well for other people.......nobody has the right to act like a jerk. Going out and backpacking for 6 months doesn't bestow any special rights or privileges, and it doesn't absolve anyone from proper or respectful behavior.

The fact that a place has a liquor license doesn't inherently grant patrons the right to act like schmucks.

If you disagree, tell us why.

(And I bet you've never been a waiter or a bartender either, but that's another post).I didn't say, or imply, that patrons, or hikers, had any right to act like boors. What I said, explicitly or implicitly, is that places that serve alcohol need to be prepared to deal with people that drink alcohol. Whether they like it or not, there are certain vicarious liabilities that go with the territory, like ensuring that people don't drink while underage, or drink excessively even if they are not, etc. etc. It sounds to me that in this situation they did what they felt they had to do, the way they felt they had to do it. Perhaps they lost some revenue as a result, and perhaps lost some future patrons while perhaps gaining others. For this they deserve our respect, but not our sympathy. As for the drinkers, or hikers, I made no comment on them whatsoever. I will say from the sounds of things what they did might have been less than ideal social behavior, but there is worse.

For example, this business of using public shaming on the internet to clean up social behavior on the AT; I think that is seriously misguided, to put it lightly. If that is what the web site is all about, please tell me. Does this web site have an official policy in this regard, or is a matter of freedom of speech and open contention? Perhaps someone that has been around this site longer than I have can fill me in.

Why isn't there a policy against this sort of public shaming of trail names?
I'm new, but it seems wrong. Has there never been a discussion on this?

JAK
08-15-2007, 20:16
Cudos to Jack Tarlin by the way, and everyone else on this thread so far, for not mentioning the trail names of those involved. Just my opinion as someone new to this site, but I believe that's the way this sort of thing should be dealt with. Perhaps that is an issue for another thread.

Appalachian Tater
08-15-2007, 20:49
Why should it be a secret when someone behaves in a way that harms other people? Why should they be allowed to get away with it?

ed bell
08-15-2007, 21:30
For example, this business of using public shaming on the internet to clean up social behavior on the AT; I think that is seriously misguided, to put it lightly. If that is what the web site is all about, please tell me. Does this web site have an official policy in this regard, or is a matter of freedom of speech and open contention? Perhaps someone that has been around this site longer than I have can fill me in.

Why isn't there a policy against this sort of public shaming of trail names?
I'm new, but it seems wrong. Has there never been a discussion on this?There have been a few people to be openly called out. I have seen very few, if any, hikers unfairly criticized. I've said it before on this website, and I'll say it again, Ain't scrutiny a bitch? The problem rests squarly on the shoulders of those who call attention to their behavior. Do you honestly believe that this website is about public shaming to clean up social behavior? Could you actually realize that calling attention to "destructive behavior" could help keep people informed about the importance of maintaining good relations between hikers and the towns or services that enable hikers to keep on keepin' on? There have been quite a few hikers who have exposed themselves to scrutiny through their Trailjournal entries, or through other hikers relating disturbing accounts of downright disrespectful behavior. While I myself would refrain from identifying anyone by name unless I was directly involved, ask or search about Elwood and you may see the true reason for concern.

JAK
08-15-2007, 23:46
Do you honestly believe that this website is about public shaming to clean up social behavior?As an outsider, for what it's worth, that is over-riding first impression I am getting from many threads which I really did not expect. It just seems wrong. It seems to break the golden rule. Sure, one might always claim they would expect to be treated the same way if they behaved the same way, but what is the threshold and bounds for such judgement, and where is the charity?

As an outsider, am I myself too quick to judge. Surely. But I must ask, where is this coming from? It seems there must be a cause, though not neccessarily a just cause. So where is the origin for such action, and is it truly warranted?Is there anti-social behaviour on the AT? Surely, but who has the authority to judge? Is there anti-social behaviour on WB? Surely, but who has the authority to judge? Does one justify the other? Do two wrongs make a right?

As an outsider, who has not yet experienced the AT, and is new to WB, I see the WB as a reflection of the AT. With respect to this public shaming over the internet as a means of controlling behaviour on the AT, I think it reflects poorly on the WB and the AT, the hikers that hike it, and the towns that it crosses. My own personal prejudice tends to be most suspicious of individuals with commercial interests, however well intended. At the same time I am not naive as to the typical behavior of many people when given the opportunity to run free, however well brought up. I see how these two groups can come into conflict. I will try and withold judgement on either.

But I don't like this public shaming over the internet, or threats thereof, that I have seen here on WB. It's ugly, and I think it's unwarranted, and unneccessary, no matter how ugly things might be on the AT where trails and towns meet. I just want you to know that. I don't drink when I hike, and I tend to hike alone and avoid people. Having said that I do like to visit towns and have some contact with strangers. I am interested in discourse, but not conflict. I appreciate that my interests are not the same as others, or any more or any less noble. But what I have seen of the AT through the WB makes we want to avoid the towns, even if it means avoiding the AT. Surely no great loss, as I am not a great spender, nor is the AT apparently for want of hikers. We do not appear to be a match made in heaven.

So was that the point? What am I? Am I the bathwater, or the baby? Perhaps I am neither. I would like to have seen those hills and ran those ridges. Perhaps I still can. Neither the towns nor the WB nor even the AT can stop me. If I start from my home, and keep my heart in the hills, only I can stop me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogZPN_I870c

JAK
08-16-2007, 00:02
Having said all that, it does seems to have a certain appeal, like the wild west, or the klondike. I can see myself coming down from those lofty hills, but of course falling like any sinner, not descending as a saint. But still, like any one of us, that better part of me would hope to aspire to be as that bull moose, down from the purple mists.


The Bull Moose
- Alden Nowlan

Down from the purple mist of trees on the mountain,
lurching through forests of white spruce and cedar,
stumbling through tamarack swamps,
came the bull moose
to be stopped at last by a pole-fenced pasture.

Too tired to turn or, perhaps, aware
there was no place left to go, he stood with the cattle.
They, scenting the musk of death, seeing his great head
like the ritual mask of a blood god, moved to the other end
of the field, and waited.

The neighbours heard of it, and by afternoon
cars lined the road. The children teased him
with alder switches and he gazed at them
like an old, tolerant collie. The woman asked
if he could have escaped from a Fair.

The oldest man in the parish remembered seeing
a gelded moose yoked with an ox for plowing.
The young men snickered and tried to pour beer
down his throat, while their girl friends took their pictures.

And the bull moose let them stroke his tick-ravaged flanks,
let them pry open his jaws with bottles, let a giggling girl
plant a little purple cap
of thistles on his head.

When the wardens came, everyone agreed it was a shame
to shoot anything so shaggy and cuddlesome.
He looked like the kind of pet
women put to bed with their sons.

So they held their fire. But just as the sun dropped in the river
the bull moose gathered his strength
like a scaffolded king, straightened and lifted his horns
so that even the wardens backed away as they raised their rifles.

When he roared, people ran to their cars. All the young men
leaned on their automobile horns as he toppled.

ed bell
08-16-2007, 00:13
And the golden rule is: do unto others as........ C'mon JAK, list the threads that have unfairly targeted folks for their behavior.(You said many) I've been here a while. I just don't see it. This is a message board where all can give their .02. What thread has bothered you the most? There are almost 25,000 threads here. Can you come up with more than 5 that reflect you concerns? Please elaborate. :sun

JAK
08-16-2007, 00:29
Only two really, though it gave the impression of a history of others. There was that swimming pool thread, which really was quite ugly. Perhaps just an unfortunate first impression, and not the finest conduct on my part either. Then really just the one post in this thread with a reference to posting trail names over the internet, which really is rather cowardly, I think. But like you say, just my 0.02, and without much time to appreciate in value, nor depreciate. Take it for what it's worth.

JAK
08-16-2007, 00:59
That said, I do feel I've been to darned loud, ignorant, and contrary opinionated, just for the sake of being loud, ignorant, and contrary opinionated. Its the loud, ignorant, and contrary opinionated Scots in me. The one thing I can't stand loud, ignorant, and contrary opinionated Scots. Overly repetitive also. I can't stand it. Nothing wrong with this thread, or this forum really, except my posts. Not a bad way to break me and pre-empt some potential, nay potential, highly likely and predictable misbehaviour, if I ever do have the priviledge do hit the AT, including the very unique and precious places where trails meet towns. Perhaps someday. Cheers.

JAK
08-16-2007, 01:25
Speaking of wells, in Wales particularly, and other such places of old, there are ancient traditions such as the dressing of wells, and various superstitions and beliefs related thereto. Little people and such, that receive such gifts, and protect these wells. Is there any such thing on the AT? The trail magic seems related to such practice. What is the origin of such trail magic? Other than townee to hiker, and hiker to hiker, is it ever hiker to townee or townee to townee? What about gifts to the trail itself, or special places, and any little people that might dwell there by? Flowers let's say, or special stones, or the planting of special trees, not merely as neccessary maintenance of the trail and the environment, but beyond that? Gifts to nature herself, lesser such creatures, well known or well hidden, or the creator of all? Perhaps the smallest of good deeds left without notice, might be the best such gifts and best kept secrets, to ensure that such wells and other such places remain unpoisoned. That hope springs eternal.

smokymtnsteve
08-16-2007, 02:29
actually a big 10 lb bag of salt works well to poison a well

JAK
08-16-2007, 03:43
Rather nasty bit of trail magic there. The fairies would get you for sure.
Speaking of which isn't there a gnome up your way. ;)

Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-16-2007, 04:51
Not sure how to poison a well, but some hikers recently gave a demonstration of how to poison a swiming pool......

JAK
08-16-2007, 05:30
Not sure how to poison a well, but some hikers recently gave a demonstration of how to poison a swiming pool......Not all of the smallest gifts make the best gifts. ;)

dixicritter
08-16-2007, 07:28
Let's not forget that this thread was started a year ago.

JAK
08-16-2007, 08:26
Let's not forget that this thread was started a year ago.Some small gifts might be best left undiscovered. ;)

generoll
08-16-2007, 08:48
JAK will have the last word so if we let him then maybe this thread can be put to rest. The point was well made a year ago.

JAK
08-16-2007, 09:12
Thanks generoll. Sorry everybody. I wasn't the guy that re-opened the thread, not that it was any ill intent on his part either. He was a new poster, probably did some browsing, and simply came across a single post he wanted to comment on. We don't always read the entire thread or check dates before we post. Anyhow, I did finally give the entire thread a good read. Good, bad, and ugly. Anyhow, it wasn't my intention to be a smart ass and get in the last word. My intention was simply to turn an ugly thread into a more humourous one. Anyhow, this isn't really my community, and I'm not really making much of an impression or a contribution, so I will move on. Not a bad place really, and I mean that. Cheers.

Jack Tarlin
08-16-2007, 16:09
JAK:

You actually raised some good points, and you express yourself well.

In re. to the "public shaming" thing, it's eally pretty simple: There are some folks on the Trail every year who act and behave however they please, with little thought or consequence as to how their actions might affect others. In brief, these people simply don't care, period, and if they were told flat out how their actions might negatively impact other people, well, they STILL wouldn't care.

With people of this sort, the ONLY way that they ever realize they screwed up and may want to alter their behavior in the future if if they see that their actions might have consequences FOR THEMSELVES. In other owrds, these kinds of people don't give a rat's ass about anyone else, but when their actions come back to haunt THEMSELVES, then they wise up. The only way to get selfish, thoughtless people to straighten up is when they see that their actions can have consequences......when bad behavior is seen to affect THEM, then they might give it a thought.

Also, Trail sevice providers, hostel owners, Trail Angels, and others, have every right to know about other hikers, especially those who have acted outrageously on the Trail. Honestly, JAK, if there was someone out there on the Trail who was an inconsiderate jerk; had dis-respected private property; had ruined things for other hikers.....is this the sort of person you'd want to do favors for? Is this the sort of person you'd want to help out? Is this the sort of person you'd want to entertain in your home?

I don't think so.

And if you WERE contemplating helping someone like this out, wouldn't you appreciate getting a "heads up" about the guy BEFORE you helped him or took him into your home?

I bet you would.

People have the right to know about who's out there.

And people who are out there who screw up, or screw things up for others, should not be surprised when this becomes a topic of public discussion.

I'm sorry you don't like the "public shaming" thing, JAK, but has it ever occurred to you that if these folks acted decently in the first place, this wouldn't ever be an issue, eh?

And in the Port Clinton affair, Zak, I think it's very telling that we never heard a peep from the people involved, not a note of contrition, nor, and this is even more important, any sort of indignant denial of the particulars of the story.

Why is that, Zak? :-?

Could it perhaps be that the public airing of this regrattable matter was eminently proper, and that the public scorn these people received was eminently deserved?

Something to think about.

the goat
08-16-2007, 16:21
I'm new, but it seems....

Just my opinion as someone new to this site....

As an outsider, ....

As an outsider, ....

As an outsider, who has not yet experienced the AT, and is new to WB,....

dude, your profile says you've been a member here for over 3 years.:confused:

Jack Tarlin
08-16-2007, 16:26
Goat:

Maybe so, but he's only been posting with any regularity in the past few weeks. There are lots of long-time members here who don't contribute regularly, and many who are members in good standing at WB (and have been for years) who don't post at all. Which is their right.

bulldog49
08-16-2007, 16:27
JAK:

Could it perhaps be that the public airing of this regrattable matter was eminently proper, and that the public scorn these people received was eminently deserved?

Something to think about.

Yep, in other words, actions have (or should have)consequences.

SGT Rock
08-16-2007, 20:34
JAK:

You actually raised some good points, and you express yourself well.

In re. to the "public shaming" thing, it's eally pretty simple: There are some folks on the Trail every year who act and behave however they please, with little thought or consequence as to how their actions might affect others. In brief, these people simply don't care, period, and if they were told flat out how their actions might negatively impact other people, well, they STILL wouldn't care...

And people who are out there who screw up, or screw things up for others, should not be surprised when this becomes a topic of public discussion.

I'm sorry you don't like the "public shaming" thing, JAK, but has it ever occurred to you that if these folks acted decently in the first place, this wouldn't ever be an issue, eh?

...

Something to think about.
As we say in the Army, Peer preesure is a Muther****er.

ed bell
08-16-2007, 21:15
As we say in the Army, Peer preesure is a Muther****er.And that's a fact, jack!:D

Jester2000
08-16-2007, 21:15
As we say in the Army, Peer preesure is a Muther****er.

They curse in the army?!?

SGT Rock
08-16-2007, 21:19
Sometimes. I tried to stop a couple of times, but the Army kept ****ing it up.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
08-16-2007, 21:21
::: Moma Dino stands aside shaking head with toothbrush and bar of soap in hand :::

Trillium
08-16-2007, 21:36
They curse in the army?!?
I thought FUBAR was an official army term and what's the other one; I can't seem to remember

Skidsteer
08-16-2007, 22:09
I thought FUBAR was an official army term and what's the other one; I can't seem to remember

Snafu?.....

Jimmers
08-16-2007, 22:54
I thought FUBAR was an official army term and what's the other one; I can't seem to remember

There's only one more?:D

tanpuma
08-16-2007, 23:34
I was curious so I went back to the original post for the date of the restaurant visit. Well, this got me thinking last year(2006) in June, I was
in the Loft Mountain campground area in SNP. A large group of thru hikers, about 15 or so people were camped next to the trail , in full view of the campground, and on a popular overlook called Sunset Rocks. I mean ON the overlook, not next to but all over the overlook. Not only was this a completely illegal site, being so close to the campground, it also ruined the overlook for everyone else. Also, this site was completely rocky, you have to wonder about this groups' skillset for hiking.
Now, I am thinking that this group and the restaurant group maybe the same bunch. At least I hope so, because otherwise thats two big groups of
sorry hikers, instead of only one.

Jack Tarlin
08-16-2007, 23:36
When it comes to groups like this, there's probably a lot more than two of 'em.......

Heater
08-17-2007, 03:31
And that's a fact, jack!:D

BOOM chacka lacka lacka BOOM chacka lacka lacka. :D