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Crazy Larry #1
08-12-2006, 09:15
For sometime there has been behavioral problems on the trail.

Jacks recent thread "Poisoning the well" emphasizes some of what goes on with certain individuals during hiking season. I am convinced this person would act up no matter where he is at.

I have been pondering for awhile the idea of printing up a general guidelines for those are out there hiking and intertwining into the communities they come to.

Anyone got any ideas?

It would have to be short, simple, and to the point.

I was thinking of distributing them to the different hiking clubs and organizations that maintain the trail suggesting that the post them in the shelters along the trail.

We need to get the word out to watch what you say and how you act when your in town, make sure you pay your way, and so forth. If you don't comply, then expect the short end of your hike to arrive very quickly.

Any ideas?

SGT Rock
08-12-2006, 09:16
Put yourself in the other person's place.

Crazy Larry #1
08-12-2006, 09:18
Put yourself in the other person's place.okay, explain to me your point....?

Skidsteer
08-12-2006, 09:21
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Pretty much what Rock said.

Crazy Larry #1
08-12-2006, 09:23
okay, gotcha. i didn't know if he was directing that to me or suggesting a point...........

dixicritter
08-12-2006, 09:24
There's more coming y'all.... lol

SGT Rock
08-12-2006, 09:25
Before you stiff a hostel, put yourself in the hostel owner's place and think about how much money they just spent on power, water, food, property taxes, and other payments to put you up.

Before you take a shuttle and don't help pay for it put yourself in the driver's place and think about gas, maintenance, wear and tear, insurance, car payments etc.

Before you complain to a waitress for doing her job, put yourself in her place about all the smell, demands, and the fact she may be putting up with that low paying job and needs it so she has to do what she does.

Before you attack the hotel worker for keeping the number of people in a room to a minimum think of how trashed a group of hikers can make it for the folks that have to clean it.

Before you demand an outfitter replaces some piece of gear you screwed up, think about how that person may be living on the margins on the store - most ain't going to ever get rich doing it, they do it because they want to be near the outdoor community and hopefully know what we want and need.

Before you open your mouth and engage your brain to say something about someone, think about it from their perspective. Put yourself in their place.

StarLyte
08-12-2006, 09:26
okay, gotcha. i didn't know if he was directing that to me or suggesting a point...........

You're an angel OW.....he would never direct that at you. :D :D

Crazy Larry #1
08-12-2006, 09:26
good stuff ROCK!

Crazy Larry #1
08-12-2006, 09:27
You're an angel OW.....he would never direct that at you. :D :Dwow! someone who finally noticed my set of wings and halo!!!! yeah..................................!!!!!:sun

SGT Rock
08-12-2006, 09:45
You said you wanted short and simple. That was the shortest and simplest answer I could give.

Maybe it would need more explanation if it were to become a hiking slogan.

One of the best, most thought provoking training posters I ever saw was this one about staff orders, I'll try to get this right and paint a picture for you...

In the military there are things we call Combat Orders. They have different types, but basically they tell the SOB that has to go to fight what is supposed to be done and other stuff like where to take any prisoners, how to get food, what the green star cluster is going to mean today, etc. Staff officers sitting in a TOC somewhere often make these orders into huge monsters to cover lots of contingencies and cover every possible question that could ever come up. They can be so big, detailed, and all inclusive it could take you a week of reading and asking questions to comprehend it all.

And the poor SOB that is going to go fight probably only gets a couple of hours with it.

So there is a picture of this 19 year old kid, dirty, needs a shave, looking tired. The caption reads something like this:

"He has only slept 3 hours in the last 3 days, he hasn't eaten recently, he needs a bath, and he has a high school education. The operation starts in 4 hours at 0200. His life depends on his ability to understand your plan"

It brings the point home that you cannot take 10 hours to write something so complex it takes a masters degree and a week to figure it out when the troops that have to execute is need it soon, easy, and need some rest in addition to figuring out your plan.
----------------------------------------------
So maybe the ATC could do something like that to raise awarness on trail services. Black and white photos with some sort of rugged look and an ATC logo on them. Some ideas:

Make a poster of Mrs Janet and her van at a trail head. The caption could read:

"She keeps this van running on prayer because it is old enough to be the father of most of the hikers that ride in it. It takes her $150 dollars a day in gas to drive it to trails so you don't have to walk. The insurance to shuttle people is enough to finance you on the trail for a month. Before you just walk away, put yourself in her shoes"

Or get a picture of a waitress at a restaurant:

"She has been at work for 7 hours and served more people today than you have seen on the trail in a month. She is working this job to support two kids and doesn't need to loose this job. She has had to put up with smelly hikers that eat like pigs. Before you act like a pig, put yourself in her shoes"

Or a picture of a hostel:

"You just had the best sleep in a week. You just took a 10 minute long hot shower. You just called your girlfriend and she talked you into staying on the trail. You had Internet to check your e-mail and a chance to watch your favorite movie with your friends on the TV that the hostel provided. The hostel owner even gave you some good advice on the section ahead that changed how you were going to hike it. To top it all off you ate until you were ready to explode. What is $14 to you anyway? Before you "forget" to leave some money, put yourself in the his owner's shoes"

saimyoji
08-12-2006, 09:51
Check out this thread from a while back:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7448&highlight=punchcards

The punchard system could easily be adapted to monitor hiker behavior. Imagine a system of 'hiker only' establishments that would hold each hiker accountable at every step of their hike. :eek:

SGT Rock
08-12-2006, 09:52
The grapevine already does some of that.

Crazy Larry #1
08-12-2006, 10:02
I think your onto something there Rock with the picture thing......if I decide to put this together and get it out there in time for next years hiking season, any of you willing to help me out.....I don't have my own computer, plus I don't have any idea about downloading pics..........maybe everyone who wants to be involved can design it right here on WB, would that be okay Rock and Attroll?

SGT Rock
08-12-2006, 10:05
I'll make you up three good ones for preview

Crazy Larry #1
08-12-2006, 10:10
I'll make you up three good ones for previewthanx rock, cool..............

Amigi'sLastStand
08-12-2006, 10:26
You said you wanted short and simple. That was the shortest and simplest answer I could give.

Maybe it would need more explanation if it were to become a hiking slogan.

One of the best, most thought provoking training posters I ever saw was this one about staff orders, I'll try to get this right and paint a picture for you...

In the military there are things we call Combat Orders. They have different types, but basically they tell the SOB that has to go to fight what is supposed to be done and other stuff like where to take any prisoners, how to get food, what the green star cluster is going to mean today, etc. Staff officers sitting in a TOC somewhere often make these orders into huge monsters to cover lots of contingencies and cover every possible question that could ever come up. They can be so big, detailed, and all inclusive it could take you a week of reading and asking questions to comprehend it all.

And the poor SOB that is going to go fight probably only gets a couple of hours with it.

So there is a picture of this 19 year old kid, dirty, needs a shave, looking tired. The caption reads something like this:

"He has only slept 3 hours in the last 3 days, he hasn't eaten recently, he needs a bath, and he has a high school education. The operation starts in 4 hours at 0200. His life depends on his ability to understand your plan"

It brings the point home that you cannot take 10 hours to write something so complex it takes a masters degree and a week to figure it out when the troops that have to execute is need it soon, easy, and need some rest in addition to figuring out your plan.
----------------------------------------------
So maybe the ATC could do something like that to raise awarness on trail services. Black and white photos with some sort of rugged look and an ATC logo on them. Some ideas:

Make a poster of Mrs Janet and her van at a trail head. The caption could read:

"She keeps this van running on prayer because it is old enough to be the father of most of the hikers that ride in it. It takes her $150 dollars a day in gas to drive it to trails so you don't have to walk. The insurance to shuttle people is enough to finance you on the trail for a month. Before you just walk away, put yourself in her shoes"

Or get a picture of a waitress at a restaurant:

"She has been at work for 7 hours and served more people today than you have seen on the trail in a month. She is working this job to support two kids and doesn't need to loose this job. She has had to put up with smelly hikers that eat like pigs. Before you act like a pig, put yourself in her shoes"

Or a picture of a hostel:

"You just had the best sleep in a week. You just took a 10 minute long hot shower. You just called your girlfriend and she talked you into staying on the trail. You had Internet to check your e-mail and a chance to watch your favorite movie with your friends on the TV that the hostel provided. The hostel owner even gave you some good advice on the section ahead that changed how you were going to hike it. To top it all off you ate until you were ready to explode. What is $14 to you anyway? Before you "forget" to leave some money, put yourself in the his owner's shoes"
Not bad for a noncom.:D :cool: ( Three up, three down...end of an inning, right? Gotcha! )

All it takes is the Golden rule. But that is no longer in favor anymore. Trying to change ppls behavior is often very hard to near impossible, yet then sometimes all it takes is a kind word or a picture.
If you think that thrus are the problem, well, that's easy. A small 15 min lecture at Springer on trail behavior should help with that. As well as a pamphlet and the pics sent to each of the hostels via email. Or we could come up with a set of guidlines here at WB and post them in the Thruhike planning section. It seems most thrus know about WB now, so that should help.
If you think the problems are with the other 2,997,000 ppl who use the trail, good luck.:rolleyes: That aint never gonna change.

SGT Rock
08-12-2006, 10:37
Naw, but the ATC could have a poster campaign and give them to service providers to put wherever hikers go. Sort of reminding them they are not a bunch of prima donnas that need to be coddled too :D

SGT Rock
08-12-2006, 10:46
OK y'all. Check this one out:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=12417&original=1&c=510

fishinfred
08-12-2006, 11:33
AMEN BROTHER! Maybe add a caption like "This place is here to support your hike " DON"T FORGET TO SUPPORT IT" !

On Behavior ....
Just remember when a person acts up or skimps on donations etc., that its the next person/persons who eventually pay the price for your misbehavior and stupidity.Not to mention the establishment.
If you're working for stay somewhere DO more than what is asked..... they don't ask much !
These HIKER friendly places will be even more scarce for future hikers unless "the few" that ruin it GROW UP !

Take care ROCK!
PEACE!
Fishinfred

Alligator
08-12-2006, 12:15
It might be good to consider the history of this particular attempt.

http://www.aldha.org/ethics.htm

Amigi'sLastStand
08-12-2006, 13:11
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=12422&c=530
Here's my submission.

Jack Tarlin
08-12-2006, 15:35
Other than slandering the memory of a wonderful man, I fail to see any humor whatsoever in Amigi's latest post.

Oh, and the gentleman's name was MacKaye, by the way.

Amigi'sLastStand
08-12-2006, 15:48
Other than slandering the memory of a wonderful man, I fail to see any humor whatsoever in Amigi's latest post.

Oh, and the gentleman's name was MacKaye, by the way.
No sense of humor. If your not telling ppl how to act, you just cant have any fun.

Jack Tarlin
08-12-2006, 16:14
Oh, Amigi, lighten up.

I don't tell people how to act.

I simply point out when they're acting like jerks.

Surely you've encountered this in your life before.

One would think you'd be used to it by now.

Crazy Larry #1
08-12-2006, 16:18
OK y'all. Check this one out:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=12417&original=1&c=510excellent!

Crazy Larry #1
08-12-2006, 16:22
It might be good to consider the history of this particular attempt.

http://www.aldha.org/ethics.htmgood post and reminder alligator, i just think we can take that a step further, like what rock is suggesting......we need a frontal assault on this problem, it may never go away, but i believe with some of the crativity we have here on WB we can at least get the message across..........

Crazy Larry #1
08-12-2006, 16:23
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=12422&c=530
Here's my submission.uhmmmmmm, welll..........:-?

Crazy Larry #1
08-12-2006, 19:53
anymore ideas people..................?

SGT Rock
08-12-2006, 19:58
Well I have more ideas for posters like the one I posted, but I don't have time to mess with making a bunch of them. I do like the link Alligator posted from the old ALDHA campaign. I think something like that could be added to my idea with a poster of a stinky, nasty, wet, unshaven, dirty, overloaded hiker:

"For the last three months you have lived like an animal. Now you are in town, don't act like an animal."

Priceless.

Alligator
08-12-2006, 22:09
I don't really know much about the Endangered Services Campaign, other than hearing bits and pieces. It would be interesting to know where it was successful and where not.

Jack Tarlin
08-12-2006, 22:25
Well, having the founder of ALDHA repeatedly publicly announce that it didn't apply to him sure didn't help matters much, Gator, but I think overall it's probably done some good. At the very least, every time someone sees/reads one of the campaign's posters, it makes them aware of the problem. What they then choose to do about it is another matter.

Alligator
08-12-2006, 23:49
Well, having the founder of ALDHA repeatedly publicly announce that it didn't apply to him sure didn't help matters much, Gator, but I think overall it's probably done some good. At the very least, every time someone sees/reads one of the campaign's posters, it makes them aware of the problem. What they then choose to do about it is another matter.I knew the first part Jack:). It seemed like what was proposed here was similar to Aldha's approach, perhaps with more edgy posters.

The ALDHA link had this note
(Note: Working on this project were Monica Cook, Dania Egedi, Noel DeCavalcante, Al Sochard, Cindy Ross and Bill O’Brien.)

Also, that the poster was sent to the ATC for inclusion in packets for future thruhikers.

I have no idea about ALDHA's current emphasis on this program, but thought it might be a good starting point.

StarLyte
08-13-2006, 00:03
No sense of humor. If your not telling ppl how to act, you just cant have any fun.

Au contraire dear Amigi......come a little closer to the campfire......and listen.....

dougmeredith
08-13-2006, 20:39
I have been pondering for awhile the idea of printing up a general guidelines for those are out there hiking and intertwining into the communities they come to.

You won't do any harm in trying, but I doubt you will accomplish much. People are either considerate of others or they are not. If they are inconsiderate when at work or home, they are probably inconsiderate when hiking too.

Doug

WalkinHome
08-13-2006, 21:53
At the 2004 Gathering in West Virginia we had a discussion about the Endangered Services issue and it was pointed out to the group by Miss Janet that supervision is a large part of the solution along with equal parts of education. The Palmerton Police Station was specifically discussed as it was very close to shutting down due to hiker actions. Jester and Bag O Tricks took it upon themselves to discuss this with the powers that be and to persuade the hiker community to wake up and not ruin it for those hikers coming behind them. This seems to have worked so far but it requires a fair amount of attention to keep everyone honest. Bag O Tricks also has done quite a bit of damage control in Port Clinton. If you want these services to stay open, someone has to step up to the plate and help out.

StarLyte
08-13-2006, 22:38
I agree Walkin' Home.

But it's hard stepping up to that plate. Not everyone is capable, not everyone wants to even get involved; some assume that advocates like Tricks will be their ambassador. Hasn't it always been like that. Same with trail crews, not every person is capable of performing the harder tasks, like moving huge rocks or fallen trees.

Education, awareness and DESIRE.

I do suppose if you were around passing out those great lobster samiches that all might change a little quicker. :rolleyes:

Sly
08-13-2006, 23:05
There should be a pile of 6-8 pound rocks at each trailhead. If hiker steps out of line, they should be blacked balled by another hike (under Rock's guidelines) unless they carry the rock to the next trailhead. Two strikes and you're banished from the tribe!

:D

Sly
08-13-2006, 23:10
OK y'all. Check this one out:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=12417&original=1&c=510

Pretty neat, but it's only $4.00! :p

Crazy Larry #1
08-14-2006, 08:34
You won't do any harm in trying, but I doubt you will accomplish much. People are either considerate of others or they are not. If they are inconsiderate when at work or home, they are probably inconsiderate when hiking too.

DougThat is true, very true. But also I thought when I printed these pieces up I would put at the very bottom of the page, "If you just so happen to be inclined to be a jerk on the trail, we will be so inclined to remove you from the trail. Courtesy of the White Blaze Mafia."

Think that might get their attention?

K0OPG
08-14-2006, 09:35
I can't believe I'm saying this to an army dog; but "Rock"...you're the man! The poster is great.

As someone else said, the "Golden Rule" is out dated now. Sads but true.

Isn't it strange that there are thousands of laws to cover just 10 Commandments?!?

Keep up the great work and keep the troops safe. WhooAhh!:banana

Gray Blazer
08-14-2006, 09:36
[quote=SGT Rock]You said you wanted short and simple. That was the shortest and simplest answer I could give.

Maybe it would need more explanation if it were to become a hiking slogan.

One of the best, most thought provoking training posters I ever saw was this one about staff orders, I'll try to get this right and paint a picture for you...

In the military there are things we call Combat Orders. They have different types, but basically they tell the SOB that has to go to fight what is supposed to be done and other stuff like where to take any prisoners, how to get food, what the green star cluster is going to mean today, etc. Staff officers sitting in a TOC somewhere often make these orders into huge monsters to cover lots of contingencies and cover every possible question that could ever come up. They can be so big, detailed, and all inclusive it could take you a week of reading and asking questions to comprehend it all.


At our house, we call those idiot signs!