Down or Synthetic on the AT

[nano]

Since, I'm assuming, it's going to rain a lot on the AT wouldn't synthetic sleeping bags be the right and obvious choice? Or is down the choice, it lasts longer, is lighter, and compresses more? Im not planning to sleep out in the rain and I know my shelter will protect me from the rain so what would be the choice? Any experienced opinions would be appreciated!:sun

[Just Jeff]

Oh crap - you've done it now. This thread might start a bigger flame war than the Lebanon one. J/K. Sort of.

Search the archives, man - there are a few of these in there. I'm sure the opinions haven't changed much since the 2006 class asked these things. But I'll sum it up for you:

- The synthetic guys are gonna say it's a safety thing and anyone who uses down is playing with their lives.
- The down guys are gonna say "keep your gear dry and make fun of the guys carrying an extra pound on their backs - I've been hiking eleventy-seven years and never had a wet bag."
- Most folks will say to go with whatever makes you comfortable.

It's really not hard to keep your bag dry, especially with the nearly-waterproof DWR shells they have now. And you hit town every few days anyway, so if the condensation builds up you can throw it in a dryer or something.

[SGT Rock]

Down for 25+ years. Wet once 21 years ago. Learned my lesson and didn't do it again. But some folks are still worried it could happen so they pack synthetic.

So it depends on preference and wallet.

[Dust]

Not only are synthetic bags heavier, they are take significantly more space in your pack. Not only are down bags much more comfortable to sleep in, they weigh less and pack much smaller. Pack your down bag in two stuff sacks, or one stuff sack and an oven bag, and you'll have no problem even if it pours cats and dogs. And like Rock said, condensation can be removed at the next town stop.

[SGT Rock]

Actually Jeff said that.

[nano]

Oh crap - you've done it now. This thread might start a bigger flame war than the Lebanon one. J/K. Sort of.

Sorry man, I knew I was playing with fire when i put this post up. :-)
I'm sure there are a million different opinions, but I would still like to know each persons so I could deduce for myself.:-? Right now I am leaning towards my down bag...900 fill,hehehehe

[SGT Rock]

OK, on fill...

Before I start, I am not an expert, someone like Peter Pan can say this with authority.

...back to my point. Fill rating means 1 ounce of feathers will fill X cubic inches of space. 550 Down means 550ci per ounce, 750 means 750ci per ounce. Cost goes up with the loft rating.

BUT weight of bag materials and other feathers can weigh down down (get it?).

So that said, most down bags add a little overfill to compensate when calculating this, at least the good ones do.

Now here is the advice part. From what I have been told by some who make this stuff and what I have read, 750/800 is considered the best down for a bag you can get. 900 fill down (some doubt the existence) is so light and fluffy that it really compresses down to a 750/800 performance level inside the bag. But you will still pay extra for that 900 fill.

Bottom line, don't pay for a 900 fill bag. Go with a 750/800 type bag for best performance and more reasonable price. If you want to save weight check out a quilt.

[Rendezvous01]

Nano--
I vote up for down.
Bought a Western Mountaineering rectangular 20 degree bag for my hike in '01. Used it 90+ nights, kept it dry and clean (wear liner socks and log underwear to bed--that's where you can get your fill of synthetic). Have never washed it, just aired it well every couple weeks while on the trail. Still use it all winter as an extra quilt on the bed--allows me to turn down the thermostat a few more degrees, so it has more than paid for itself over the years. It was my most expensive piece of equipment, more than my pack, my shelter, my boots, might have even been more than my airline ticket to Atlanta. And worth every penny.

[Lone Wolf]

I've used synthetic for 19 years and 16,000 miles. Last year I used a down bag for a few weeks. It was a coupla OZs lighter but didn't feel any difference. Buy from Campmor if you want down.

[hammock engineer]

I have a down one any really like it.

One thing I will throw out there is that I think you bag is more likely to get wet in your pack than in your shelter. I put my bag in a waterproof compression sack. This way for my bag to get wet in my pack my pack cover, pack, and compression sack would all have to leak. Some will say this is overkill, but I am paroniod about getting things wet. Then again I also see sil-nylon dry bags for stuff sacks.

[map man]

There's another aspect of the down vs. synthetic choice, though I know you didn't ask about it. But some WhiteBlaze members might be interested, so here goes.

Virtually all down comes from slaughtered geese. You don't have to be a hard-core animal rights activist to still prefer that animals not be killed for what is essentially a luxury. Afterall, you can stay warm in a synthetic bag, even though it weighs a little more (leaving aside my anguish that many defenseless polyesters must die to bring us synthetic fill:D ).

Now, eider down, from the Eider duck, unlike goose down, is traditionally obtained without harming the animal. Nunatak will make a bag for you made from eider down, but it is incredibly expensive -- they charge 125 dollars surcharge per ounce of down.

I know one argument out there is that geese will be slaughtered for other reasons, and down, like leather from cattle or hogs, is just a bonus byproduct of the slaughtering process.

I find that this rationale doesn't persuade me away from the conclusion that for me synthetic is the way to go.

[Tinker]

Since, I'm assuming, it's going to rain a lot on the AT wouldn't synthetic sleeping bags be the right and obvious choice? Or is down the choice, it lasts longer, is lighter, and compresses more? Im not planning to sleep out in the rain and I know my shelter will protect me from the rain so what would be the choice? Any experienced opinions would be appreciated!:sun

I haven't used synthetics since 1987, when I ruined the loft of a Quallofil bag in a hot dryer. I've never gotten significantly wet in a down bag, just a little splash back when tarping (I use an ultralight breathable bivy now, when I'm not hammocking), or drips from a leaky shelter roof. Down dries surprisingly fast with body heat or out in the sun, if it's only a little damp. Of course, if you fall into a river and don't have your down bag adequately protected (I use a trash bag inside my pack, at the bottom, and haven't had any problems, but I haven't fallen into a river lately:D).
The new laminated synthetic bags are worth a look, however, if you plan on a warm weather hike of any duration. Cold weather synthetic bags are horribly bulky and heavy, and many, if not most, are quite optimistically rated, temperature-wise. I have an REI Traveller bag, rated for 55F, which weighs less than 1.5 lbs. It was cheap and you can wear it walking around in camp, which is nice for hammocking. Last two summer weekend hikes I've taken have, however, been without a sleeping bag of any kind. Bringing extra polypro or fleece garments of equal weight to a synthetic bag makes your gear more flexible when the nights aren't expected to go below 50F.

[Tinker]

Nano--
I vote up for down.
Bought a Western Mountaineering rectangular 20 degree bag for my hike in '01. Used it 90+ nights, kept it dry and clean (wear liner socks and log underwear to bed--that's where you can get your fill of synthetic). Have never washed it, just aired it well every couple weeks while on the trail. Still use it all winter as an extra quilt on the bed--allows me to turn down the thermostat a few more degrees, so it has more than paid for itself over the years. It was my most expensive piece of equipment, more than my pack, my shelter, my boots, might have even been more than my airline ticket to Atlanta. And worth every penny.

I bet that log underwear weighed your pack down a bit :p.

[nano]

I already have a 900 fill Marmot Hydrogen (30deg) which I used for my JMT 06 thru-hike and I was very warm with just a tee and shorts. My friend, Zip (thru-hiked the PCT 05), who is planning a thru hike around the same time as me, just bought the Marmot Pounder 40+ Synthetic. I was thinking of getting something like his, but now I think I will stick to my down. My bag did get some condensation on my trip but it still kept me warm and dried out quickly.

[fiddlehead]

I just finished posting my sleeping bag thoughts (or 10 Commandments ) at the other thread on this subject here: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16819
2 ongoing (new) threads with virtually the same topic ??? oh well.

[neo]

Since, I'm assuming, it's going to rain a lot on the AT wouldn't synthetic sleeping bags be the right and obvious choice? Or is down the choice, it lasts longer, is lighter, and compresses more? Im not planning to sleep out in the rain and I know my shelter will protect me from the rain so what would be the choice? Any experienced opinions would be appreciated!:sun

just keep your bag dry down or synthetic and you will have no problem:cool: neo

[frieden]

There's another aspect of the down vs. synthetic choice, though I know you didn't ask about it. But some WhiteBlaze members might be interested, so here goes.

Virtually all down comes from slaughtered geese. You don't have to be a hard-core animal rights activist to still prefer that animals not be killed for what is essentially a luxury. Afterall, you can stay warm in a synthetic bag, even though it weighs a little more (leaving aside my anguish that many defenseless polyesters must die to bring us synthetic fill:D ).

Now, eider down, from the Eider duck, unlike goose down, is traditionally obtained without harming the animal. Nunatak will make a bag for you made from eider down, but it is incredibly expensive -- they charge 125 dollars surcharge per ounce of down.

I know one argument out there is that geese will be slaughtered for other reasons, and down, like leather from cattle or hogs, is just a bonus byproduct of the slaughtering process.

I find that this rationale doesn't persuade me away from the conclusion that for me synthetic is the way to go.

I was just going to ask about the animal side of the down bag. Thanks, Map Man. I'll do a search for Eider down. If I can't afford it, I'll just work out in the gym more, and carry synthetic. We borrowed gear for a hike in the UK years ago, and the down bag was the best I'd seen (so I used the synthetic one, and gave the down to my daughter), but I don't want to sleep in a slaughtered animal.

One of my friends made fun of me about my views, until I made her watch some videos on egg production (just the conditions of the chickens, not even any slaughtering going on), and then some on baby seals. She now has a "Boycott Canadian Seafood" sticker on her car, and I can't get her to eat eggs anymore. I told her to just buy cage-free eggs, but she won't do it. Even if you don't care about the chickens, to think that those living conditions and disease don't transfer to the food you eat, is just insane. I wish people were made to watch exactly how the products they use were processed. I'm not eating it, and I'm certainly not sleeping in it! The negative? Those chemicals you're sleeping in and wearing are probably causing you an entire list of diseases/conditions. It's a tough, tough balance.

I'm not rich my any means, but I don't have to hunt and skin animals in order to survive. I have the luxury of sitting red-eyed at the computer, with a cup of coffee, waiting for the next item on S&C, or hitting the 75% off sale twice a year at Sports Authority.

I don't look down on people who use down (hehehehe). They have to walk their own path, and I have to walk mine. I think a down bag would be better for a number of reasons, but mass production facilities regarding animals need to be shut down, or given a complete compassion overhaul. I vote with my dollar, whenever I can.

[peter_pan]

There's another aspect of the down vs. synthetic choice, though I know you didn't ask about it. But some WhiteBlaze members might be interested, so here goes.

Virtually all down comes from slaughtered geese. You don't have to be a hard-core animal rights activist to still prefer that animals not be killed for what is essentially a luxury. Afterall, you can stay warm in a synthetic bag, even though it weighs a little more (leaving aside my anguish that many defenseless polyesters must die to bring us synthetic fill:D ).

Now, eider down, from the Eider duck, unlike goose down, is traditionally obtained without harming the animal. Nunatak will make a bag for you made from eider down, but it is incredibly expensive -- they charge 125 dollars surcharge per ounce of down.

I know one argument out there is that geese will be slaughtered for other reasons, and down, like leather from cattle or hogs, is just a bonus byproduct of the slaughtering process.

I find that this rationale doesn't persuade me away from the conclusion that for me synthetic is the way to go.

Map Man, et al.

Use all the synthetic you want...but get your facts right....

Goose down does not come from slaughtered geese....it is plucked/harvested like any other regenerative material....You need to do some reseach...try IDFL...link here, http://www.idfl.com/

Examine your arguement...you claim that you can pluck a duck but not a goose....hardly....


Pan

[Footslogger]

Synthetic fill has come a long way, but ounce for ounce I would still go with a down bag. As far as rain goes ...we had one of (if not THE) wettest years on record on the AT in 2003 and I carried a down bag without a problem. If you use a waterproof stuff sack the weather shouldn't be an issue.

'Slogger

[map man]

Peter pan: I just now googled the question, "How is goose down obtained?" The fourth result (sorry, I don't know how to create links) is from the USDA Food and Inspection Service, and if you scroll down to the heading, "How are duck and goose down obtained?," you will find the details of the process (I found it to be grim reading) -- a byproduct of the slaughtering process, as I said. That is not the only reputable, objective source of info you will find if you look it up, but I think it's a pretty convincing one. The source you linked to is a company in the business of testing the properties of feathers and down and unlikely to say much on their site liable to discourage people from using down.

Eider ducks are protected by law to a much greater degree than most goose species. According to Nanatuk, their source obtains the eider down by gathering a percentage of the down that the ducks use to line their nests. Obviously, a very expensive process, but easier on the ducks.

Some of my relatives on my mom's side were farmers back when I was a little kid and I remember their stories. Clearly, there was a time when plucking some feathers and down from some of the birds on the farm without killing them was a part of life on some farms. It still takes place that way in some scattered places, though that is getting more and more rare as time goes by. Outside of this country according to the FAO there are some places where labor is a lot cheaper and where harvesting takes place by plucking the chest feathers and down of live birds -- these places don't account for much of the total export of down, though. These days China is the leading exporter of down to the USA and elsewhere and the reason they have so much down to sell is because they eat more goose there than we do. When it comes to the down found in products we buy in the USA, almost all down is obtained as a byproduct of the slaughtering process, and the down that most bag makers use is no exception.

[mweinstone]

and twist ther fuching heads off with my teet while plucking them and yelling at them while there still alive. then i sleep in my down bag and have the best dreams. about stabbing and tourhering birds and making my bag fuller and fuller with each dead foul.

[peter_pan]

MapMan,

Found your article...interesting....sorta like the beef and leather arguements...animal is raised for food ....other parts often have viable uses...That this approach is more humain than regerative plucking is indeed interesting...guess it is a better approach....seems that goose must be a more common meal elsewhere than it is here.

Pan

[mweinstone]

ever here of france.ever hear of spelling should be your responce to me when i get like this.

[minnesotasmith]

Down is a member of the cotton family of fabrics. If you consider cotton to be an acceptable material for critical clothing/bedding items in winter- or possible-winter conditions, then go right ahead and use it as a sleeping bag material. Me, I'm glad I'm strong enough to carry a sleeping bag I can rely upon in non-ideal conditions. :D

[Old Hillwalker]

Down is a member of the cotton family of fabrics. If you consider cotton to be an acceptable material for critical clothing/bedding items in winter- or possible-winter conditions, then go right ahead and use it as a sleeping bag material. Me, I'm glad I'm strong enough to carry a sleeping bag I can rely upon in non-ideal conditions. :D Goose Down is cotton? :eek:

[Just Jeff]

Yep - Haven't you ever seen a goose plant?

[Dances with Mice]

Down is a member of the cotton family of fabrics.I'd really like to see that reference.

[The Old Fhart]

MS-"Down is a member of the cotton family of fabrics. If you consider cotton to be an acceptable material for critical clothing/bedding items in winter- or possible-winter conditions, then go right ahead and use it as a sleeping bag material. Me, I'm glad I'm strong enough to carry a sleeping bag I can rely upon in non-ideal conditions."I think MS forgot who he is posting as, or he is just channeling mweinstone!:D

[Just Jeff]

I think he just means it's useless when wet, like cotton.

[Dances with Mice]

I think he just means it's useless when wet, like cotton.Oh. That must be the reason why they don't put the down on the outside of the bag, huh?

[fiddlehead]

I think he just means it's useless when wet, like cotton.
wet cotton has it's place (use)
I live in the tropics and wouldn't be without my cotton here. It is a much better alternative than polypro.

[Just Jeff]

Haha - that's pretty funny, DWM. Guess so.

Agree, fiddlehead. I like cotton in Colorado summertime too, unless I'm at altitude.

[SGT Rock]

Down is a member of the cotton family of fabrics. If you consider cotton to be an acceptable material for critical clothing/bedding items in winter- or possible-winter conditions, then go right ahead and use it as a sleeping bag material. Me, I'm glad I'm strong enough to carry a sleeping bag I can rely upon in non-ideal conditions. :D

And I am glad I am such a wimp I have to carry a down bag :rolleyes:

Let me go see if I can get someone to tie my shoes because my weak, limp wrists are sore from tping:p

Maybe I should get on the Minnesotasmith PT plan and I can make 8 miles a day too :eek:

[lonehiker]

I still eat my eggs sunny side up.

[Just Jeff]

...limp wrists are sore from tping...

Who were you TPing? Waste of govt resources if you ask me. At least it won't rain.... :D

[dloome]

Down is a member of the cotton family of fabrics. If you consider cotton to be an acceptable material for critical clothing/bedding items in winter- or possible-winter conditions, then go right ahead and use it as a sleeping bag material. Me, I'm glad I'm strong enough to carry a sleeping bag I can rely upon in non-ideal conditions. :D

Me, I'm glad I have the knowledge and skill necessary to keep my very light, compressible, plush, sexy down bag dry in non-ideal conditions. Sheesh.
I also didn't know that goose down is considered a "fabric" or that it is in any way related to cotton, which, as is my understanding, comes from a plant, while down comes from an animal.

There's a time and a place for everything- Synthetic is better for some people who need that as a back-up or in certain climates and conditions. Whether the AT is one of those is debatable. Any way you look at it, goose down is a superior insulating material. You just need to know how to take care of it. If you don't have experience with down stuff, bring synthetic.
My $0.02

[jaywalke]

Weight issues aside . . . (ha!)

I find down bags to be comfortable over a much wider temp range than synthetics. They breathe better in conditions higher than the temp rating of the bag, and they conform to the body - eliminating air pockets in cold weather.

I have five bags, but I only use synthetics when boating.

Just my $.02.

[Dances with Mice]

I also didn't know that goose down is considered a "fabric" or that it is in any way related to cotton, which, as is my understanding, comes from a plant, while down comes from an animal.Cotton doesn't come from rabbit tails?

[tarbender]

Western Mountaineering Down Bags. Feathered Friends Down Bags. Nunatak Down Bags. Not much else matters. Keep the thing clean and dry and don't roast a frigging goose in front of it.

[Peaks]

For me, it depends on the temperature rating. My cold weather bag is down. My summer bag is synthetic. With less fill, the weight differential becomes less.

Another thing to think about is how water tight is your tent or shelter? If you have a tent that is prone to leak in downpours, then a synthetic bag makes more sense.

Spring and fall, I usually use the North Face Cat's Meow. I'm too cheap to buy another sleeping bag.

[Just Jeff]

For me, it depends on the temperature rating. My cold weather bag is down. My summer bag is synthetic. With less fill, the weight differential becomes less.

I was thinking about this with some ideas for a summer-weight insulated hammock. With the Primaloft I have in the closet, I won't need any baffles and I know I get even coverage. With such thin insulation, I think I might need extra baffles to eliminate cold spots for a down hammock, which might also eliminate any weight savings. Haven't crunched the numbers yet, though. Sure is easier to make, too.

Sticking with down for the winter hammock, though.

[Dances with Mice]

If you have a tent that is prone to leak in downpours, then a synthetic bag makes more sense. No matter what kind of bag you have, it would make more sense to replace that tent.

[mweinstone]

thats how i like my sleeping bag. warm and covered in goose blood.

[Skidsteer]

thats how i like my sleeping bag. warm and covered in goose blood.

Goose blood on your sleeping bag? Another excellent reason to replace a tent.

[hammock engineer]

thats how i like my sleeping bag. warm and covered in goose blood.

I great mulitpurpose item. It keeps you warm and is nutricianal at the same time. Put me down for one.

[Teatime]

I've heard that down bags dry out faster after getting wet than synthetic bags. Down comes from geese and the feathers are naturally hydrophobic, which means they will keep pushing water out of the bag. If your bag gets wet, my bet is the Sun will dry it much faster than a wet synthetic bag. The sythetics fibers are hollow and actually retain moisture, do they not? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Coming from a housewife who has washed and dried both down and synthetic comforters many times - down takes at least 3x as long to dry and the feathers clump up and have to separated after washing. A synthetic comforter can be line dried in about 2 to 3 hours on a sunny day. A down comforter can stay out all day and still be quite damp.

Also, down bags have baffles inside that keep the down from shifting. These baffles can be easily torn by the weight of wet down if a wet bag is not handled carefully - a task made far more difficult in a wilderness environment.

[the_iceman]

From this Link:
http://www.spaceforspecies.ca/todays_challenge/you_asked_us/index.htm

"Since synthetic insulation is a petroleum product, it is neither biodegradable nor a renewable resource. Down products are more eco-friendly."

Question: I have a down parka and sleeping bag that contain goose down. Is down from eiders still used for clothing or is it too expensive or illegal? How does the insulation value of goose down compare with that of the common eider and king eider? I know that artificial insulation material isn't as good as down, but it has other advantages. Is it environmentally better? (27/02/02)
Answer: Most products contain goose down because it is significantly less expensive than eider down. Eider down is collected from the wild whereas goose down is usually a by-product of raising geese for food. At present, eider down is collected for commercial use in Iceland where the wild eiders have become unusually tame after generations of down harvest. Eiders are not harmed from this harvest. The down is collected before egg-laying starts so that the female has time to re-line her nest. Much of the goose down used currently originates in China. Other sources of goose down include Canada and Poland.
In terms of insulation value, the main issue is 'fill power' - that is, the amount of space a given amount of down fills. Based on fill power alone, eider down does not perform as well as the best quality goose down. However, eider down has the advantage in that it clings to itself better; this prevents shifting. Products containing goose down restrict shifting by the use of baffle walls, such as those found in quilted items such as sleeping bags and duvets.
Synthetic insulation does not last as long as down (either goose or eider) and must be replaced more often. Since synthetic insulation is a petroleum product, it is neither biodegradable nor a renewable resource. Down products are more eco-friendly. A reputable manufacture of down products should be able to inform you about the origin of the down used and the method by which the down is harvested.

[the_iceman]

When drying down stick a lacrosse ball in the dryer. Some people use a sneaker. This "beats" the bag and breaks up the clumps while drying.

[frieden]

wet cotton has it's place (use)
I live in the tropics and wouldn't be without my cotton here. It is a much better alternative than polypro.

Amen, fiddlehead!!!!

[Footslogger]

When drying down stick a lacrosse ball in the dryer. Some people use a sneaker. This "beats" the bag and breaks up the clumps while drying.
========================================
Another approach is to use tennis balls. I have had success on multiple occasions using about a dozen tennis balls in a big front loading commercial dryer. Down bags came out fully dry and well lofted.

Just added back a coating of DWR and I was ready to go.

'Slogger

[dloome]

I've heard that down bags dry out faster after getting wet than synthetic bags. Down comes from geese and the feathers are naturally hydrophobic, which means they will keep pushing water out of the bag. If your bag gets wet, my bet is the Sun will dry it much faster than a wet synthetic bag. The sythetics fibers are hollow and actually retain moisture, do they not? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, since you said please: Youre wrong. Down bags take MUCH longer to dry than synthetic. Synthetic insulations are naturally hydrophobic, being made from an oil base.

I'm not a big bird expert or anything, but I think I read something about birds having different layers of feathers that function differently. Just like how we carry a water repellent shell, birds outermost feathers are water repellent, protecting the down feathers, which are not. Something like that. Anyway, as anyone who's ever properly laundered and dried a down bag can confirm, it takes friggin ages to dry it out.

[Just Jeff]

I put a puddle water on my new down bag (SD Wicked Fast). Came back a few hours later and the puddle was still there. I'd have to REALLY screw something up to have a wet down bag. Like pulling it out of its stuff sack and repeatedly dunking it in a fast-moving river by accident.

But since I don't unpack it until I'm in my waterproof shetler, and I hike with it in a water resistant stuff sack, inside a waterproof pack liner, and underneath a Packa, I think it'll be a rare day that I have to deal with a soggy down bag.

[Teatime]

I stand corrected

[Just Jeff]

There was a small spot of fabric that had darkened a bit where some water soaked in, and a little soaked into the seam. It's not seamsealed or waterproof, but like I said, the puddle was still there when I got back, and if I didn't see the little spot I wouldn't have known ANY had soaked in - it wasn't even enough to make a noticeable difference in the amount of water in the puddle.

So it's not waterproof but I'm confident it can hand any splash that comes under the tarp. And as long as I keep it dry in the pack I don't expect any problems.

After this test (BGT) I'm going back to the No Sniveler, though.

[fiddlehead]

Did you notice any water seeping through the seams?

I've found that the fancy shells (pertex, etc.) do a good job of repelling most of the water, but the seams is where the water comes in..

Also, for the moisture that does get into the bag just from your sweat at night, the Pertex keeps it in there. I don't like these wateresistant materials in a sleeping bag. I prefer to keep my bag dry myself and allow it to dry out itself as fast as possible.

[Just Jeff]

Your bag doesn't have DWR, fiddlehead?

[fiddlehead]

To the best of my knowledge, it does not. I have a Hummingbird by Feathered Friends and it is now 12 years old. At the time, i asked for the lightest fabric available both inside and out. They are both very lightweight and i don't remember anything about DWR. Although i just looked at their website and they do say that their DWR fabric is the lightest.
That being said, i have never gotten my bag wetter than an oz or 3 from dampness or sleeping under the stars in a dew filled night.

[MedicineMan]

by Nunatak...the slaughtering of geese was not an issue in deciding what type of insulation....weight and warmth were the sole criteria....

[Just Jeff]

WOOHOO - MedicineMan is at 2000 posts!

[Alligator]

WOOHOO - MedicineMan is at 2000 posts!And you knocked me out of the top ten:mad: .

It's time to play Hangman again LOL! [This one you won't get Jeff w/o a bit of work.]

[Rift Zone]

My first real bag was synthetic. I now own 6 bags. All my bags are down. The synthetic bag got kicked to the curb long ago.

[Just Jeff]

It's time to play Hangman again LOL! [This one you won't get Jeff w/o a bit of work.]

Did you guys play hangman to drive up your posts? I guess one letter at a time would do it...

[Alligator]

Did you guys play hangman to drive up your posts? I guess one letter at a time would do it...Just me. That was the allegation at the time, but not why I was playing:clap .

Besides, I'm no stove building, long bearded, Abbey quoting, Hillary loving, monsoon walking, carpet bagging, Bourbon drinking, leki bashing, tricky, hammock praising post whore.

And I'm not bitter. Eleven is a cool prime number anyway;) .

[Just Jeff]

Haha - maybe you should change your name to Alligator Prime. Nice ring to it.

[Alligator]

All rise for his most scaliness, ruler of the swamp and scenic waterways, Emperor Alligator Prime! I do sometimes like Darth Alligator, the two kind of work together.

I might wait to change my profile just yet. Maybe if I get to three:-? .

[minnesotasmith]

And I am glad I am such a wimp I have to carry a down bag :rolleyes:

Let me go see if I can get someone to tie my shoes because my weak, limp wrists are sore from tping:p

Maybe I should get on the Minnesotasmith PT plan and I can make 8 miles a day too :eek:

I don't think it's an unreasonable position to advocate a piece of gear that is slightly heavier but more reliable under adverse conditions. That is what I have done on this thread.

Re my mileage: I was doing 13s routinely before I got majorly sick, at a level of illness that has ended some other thrus' hikes this year. I'm on antibiotics for Lyme, but have never gotten back to 100%. I am still hiking, though, and do intend to earn an honest completion to my currently-underway thru-hike attempt. Do give me credit for that, at least.

Also, it's not my pack size that accounted for my mileage situation, primarily. When I slackpack, I don't do that many more miles. I'm a 45-YO guy who is heavy, if less so than when I started. I'm strong, but slow.

[SGT Rock]

Oh, by all means I give you lots of credit MS. I've been pulling for you since before you started. I hope you make it and then go back next year and do it all over again ;)

But I was just giving you some well meaning ribbing about your statement that you said "Me, I'm glad I'm strong enough to carry a sleeping bag I can rely upon in non-ideal conditions" I sort of took it as ribbing guys like me as being wimps for liking down. :p

So us folks that like down are wimps LOL :D - just ribbing.

And I thought I was being generous about your start mileage, you are definitely getting up there with your mileage. I still think you started with more weight than you needed though.

Anyway, so how many times did you get your bag wet so far? :-?

[mike!]

For you lucky backpackinglight memberships there was an interesting study of the drying characteristics of down and synthetic clothing. for the less lucky ill summarize. both were soaked and the flash (down) vest weighed less then the micropuff (relative to dry weight) and dried quicker, though there indeed was the inital spike when the down was submerged and lost nearly all insulation but spiked right back up and in 30 mins surpassed the micropuffs loft. probably a little different in terms of sleeping bags, but interesting none the less ;)
mike!

[minnesotasmith]

But I was just giving you some well meaning ribbing about your statement that you said "Me, I'm glad I'm strong enough to carry a sleeping bag I can rely upon in non-ideal conditions" I sort of took it as ribbing guys like me as being wimps for liking down. :p

So us folks that like down are wimps LOL :D - just ribbing.

And I thought I was being generous about your start mileage, you are definitely getting up there with your mileage. I still think you started with more weight than you needed though.

Anyway, so how many times did you get your bag wet so far? :-?

It's gotten damp several times, including the Smokies. Everything I owned that wasn't in multiple ziploc bags got wet the evening of the big deluge 6/27/06 (the 5" of rain per hour episode between Pen-Mar Park and Deer Lick Shelter). I've never not had what I needed for cold-weather comfortable sleeping so far this hike.

[dloome]

^Neither have I, and I never carried more than 8 pounds of gear on the AT. It's not like you have to carry tons of stuff in order to sleep warm and dry, but if that's what you want to do... Call me a wimp, but I don't like looking like this when I'm hiking ----> :eek:

Btw MS, I met you in the Smokies just past Clingman's Dome- you probably remember, it was raining, super cold and windy and everything was turning to ice when the wind hit it? You were standing by the side of the trail when I passed by and you asked me to pick up something wrapped in Tyvek you'd dropped because you didn't want to take your pack off. I only learned later who you were.

Hike on.

[Teatime]

:-? “What would the world be, once bereft of wet and wildness? Let them be left. O let them be left, wildness and wet; Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet.”
Gerard Manley Hopkins

It's gotten damp several times, including the Smokies. Everything I owned that wasn't in multiple ziploc bags got wet the evening of the big deluge 6/27/06 (the 5" of rain per hour episode between Pen-Mar Park and Deer Lick Shelter). I've never not had what I needed for cold-weather comfortable sleeping so far this hike.

[Omarwannahike]

Marmot pounder with some extra clothing sounds like a plan.. I hav to get long, and it still comes up very light, as for down, Marmot Atom (just over a pound), most of my bags are rate 30-40 though, I sleep warm and love it !