View Full Version : iodine or purifier?
Caveman93
09-04-2006, 14:06
I am concerned that over months of use iodine would make your system especially toxic. If this is true or false please inform.
SGT Rock
09-04-2006, 14:45
False. You get iodine every time you eat table salt. Follow the recommended instructions on the package.
Also, you can neutralize the iodine after it does it's 30 minutes with vit C.
Just Jeff
09-04-2006, 15:40
AquaMira works well, too...no iodine but much lighter than a filter.
SalParadise
11-14-2006, 02:47
My understanding is that Vitamin C doesn't neutralize the iodine, but just takes the iodine flavor out of the water. If it neutralized the iodine, then what would be the point of using it?
The amount of iodine you get from salt in your diet is a ton less than you get from adding drops to all the water you end up drinking, and that large amount is bad for you, but only over a long period of time and not for just six months of hiking or the occasional section hike. Fine to use over a thru-hike.
Jim Adams
11-14-2006, 02:52
vitamin c does indeed neutalize the iodine. that is why you must wait until the iodine works and then flavor / neutalize it. if both are added at the same time then you are correct, the iodine is useless.
geek
I am concerned that over months of use iodine would make your system especially toxic. If this is true or false please inform.
just like sgt. rock said, besides any toxins you will sweat out (or at least it felt that way sometimes)
if you don't like the taste, even after neutralized, or if you don't like any no-seeums or various other things that will find their way into your water then go w/ a filter.
I am concerned that over months of use iodine would make your system especially toxic. If this is true or false please inform.
It's FALSE....
But, if you still have a worry about Iodine use....drink straight from the mountain streams....unless you have a weak stomach....you'll be fine!:D
PLUS....a damn purifier weighs too much!
canoehead
11-14-2006, 07:31
I own Tekoa Mountain Outdoors in Huntington, MA
I do summer work for World Challenge Expeditions and as a ridgerunner for the AMC
I use iodone every year when I go on expedition onto Central / South America, and I pre treat with a PUR Hiker filter just because of the nasty little critters we may find while there, Here on the trail there is still little critters to watch out for. so on the AT i use just a PUR Hiker Filter
Tim
SGT Rock
11-20-2006, 15:47
My understanding is that Vitamin C doesn't neutralize the iodine, but just takes the iodine flavor out of the water. If it neutralized the iodine, then what would be the point of using it?
The amount of iodine you get from salt in your diet is a ton less than you get from adding drops to all the water you end up drinking, and that large amount is bad for you, but only over a long period of time and not for just six months of hiking or the occasional section hike. Fine to use over a thru-hike.
Yes it does neutralize the Iodine. It turns the Iodine into another chemical. That other chemical (I forget the name) doesn't kill the critters in your water like iodine does. So you have to wait the standard 30 minutes like you should anyway when using iodine. But when you add the Vit C it changes pretty dang fast (you can watch the water change color).
That said, iodine is actually beneficial to the body. It helps prevent goiters. If you look at packets of salt or containers of salt - it says Iodized. That is because doctors have found you needed it and figured this is one way to get it into your diet. Recently read an article that says with the low sodium craze, that most Americans are not getting the RDA of iodine, so if you start treating with it, you may actually help your health. BTW, the chemical that iodine changes into when you add the Vit C does the same thing in this respect (so I understand).
Add to that the Vit C also is a good thing to get on the trail. This is a win/win thing. AND a filter doesn't stop viruses. If you read any filter manufacturer's literature they also recommend adding either iodine or chlorine to your water to knock out that threat - something I reckon filter users miss when they say how great their filter protects and how much better it is than chemicals. If you have to add chemicals anyway (the manufacturer's recommendation, not mine) then why have the filter in the first place?
smokymtnsteve
11-20-2006, 15:59
mayb cause virus are not a threat to humans in backcountry h20 supplies,,whereas bacteria and crypto are??? yore chemicals don't touch cryto ..but filters do
SalParadise
11-20-2006, 16:21
I used to sell filters and got that question a lot. You'd really only want that filter-purifier double-protection if you were hiking in some exotic places outside the US.
Thanks for the correction on the Vitamin C.
SGT Rock
11-20-2006, 16:22
Actually they do touch them. If you read what the CDC and military testing have shown, they do effect those critters. The filter makers like to tell you they do not, but read the data - they do have effect.
Add to that, the actual data from the CDC on how hard it is to get Giardia symotoms from even "heavily giardia contaminated" water. It is like telling you that you need a gun to protect you from bears on the AT.
smokymtnsteve
11-20-2006, 16:26
not at the levels and time intervals that most hiker trash who use chemicals allow :eek:
SGT Rock
11-20-2006, 16:30
LOL, how do you know? You out there timing them? :p
But seriously. Good to see you around here some more.
doodah man
11-20-2006, 17:39
It's FALSE....
But, if you still have a worry about Iodine use....drink straight from the mountain streams....unless you have a weak stomach....you'll be fine!:D
PLUS....a damn purifier weighs too much!
Well, I guess I am paranoid about my water having known a few folks that have gotten giardiasis (MD confirmed). In the deep wilderness, I have enough experience to pretty much know safe water when I see it and have occasionally gone an entire trip without treating. Just choose wisely. For me, the biggest difficulty in less remote wilderness like portions of the AT is not knowing what is upstream. So, for my AT trip next year, I will have triple coverage. I have a homemade filter based on the Sawyer SP120 Inline that weighs less than 3 ounces and will be used to filter any nasty water 2L at a time up to 2000L total. Iodine will be my primary tool and used for anything that I will be treating chemically (may or may not pre-filter). Finally, as a backup in my first-aid kit, is a tiny dropper bottle with 0.15mL of bleach for emergency use just in case the filter breaks and iodine gets lost/?? (never needed so far but it is only a 4gm security blanket). Oh yeah, a tiny silk hanky as a muck filter is also sometimes necessary. But all that said, it is probably more important to wash your hands often than to treat your water... doodah-man
SalParadise
11-20-2006, 18:02
heck, may as well go with the redundant treatment at the start if it'd make you more comfortable. If you want to drop weight later then you'll know what you can send home.
I've always wondered if some people are more prone to getting Giardia than others, or if you can develop some resistance to it.
smokymtnsteve
11-23-2006, 21:45
LOL, how do you know? You out there timing them? :p
But seriously. Good to see you around here some more.
well i have been know to hang around some hiker trash:sun
SGT Rock
11-24-2006, 03:52
I just read some literature on the treatment of Giardia with iodine - looks like 20 minutes at standard dosage was found to reduce levels (in moderately contaminated water) to a safe level.
The manufacturer says wait 30 - so you are good.
And
The actual level of contamination on the AT is probably none to low.
So the hiker trash is probably safe using iodine even if they ain't waiting the full 30 minutes. I wouldn't recommend it though.
Boat Drinks
11-24-2006, 12:08
I went with a First Need purifier, taking NO chances here, I'll lug the 15 oz!!
Flow Rate per minute quarts (liters)
1.8 qt. pm (1.7 lpm)Average Capacity gallons (pints)
125 gal. (1000 pints)
Particle Retention (microns)
.1 nominal
.4 absolute
Temperature Range F° (C°)
32° - 100° (0° to 38°) - do not freeze
Weight
15 oz. (426 grams)
Canister (diameter x height)
2. 75 in x 3.9 in (7 cm x 10 cm)
Pump Length
5.5 in (14 cm)
Tube Length/ Pre-Filter Length
35.8 in/ 3.1 in (91 cm/ 8 cm)
homebrew
11-24-2006, 15:54
:sun I recommend the Katadyn hiker pro it's light or lighter than others, very durable, and great tasting water. I had the worst luck with MSR filters. I also used Iodine tablets for as long as two -three weeks while waiting for a replacement filter and carreid them as an emergency back-up. I also met several people who just drank right from the source-but I think its risky.
Best water source I ever seen on the trail was near the Black Gap Shelter (approach trail from Amicalola Falls SP) It was about a 200 yd down hill walk but the water was gushing right out of the side of the Mtn. I did filter but it was by far the best spring water I have ever tasted!
smokymtnsteve
11-24-2006, 19:15
Actually they do touch them. If you read what the CDC and military testing have shown, they do effect those critters. The filter makers like to tell you they do not, but read the data - they do have effect.
Add to that, the actual data from the CDC on how hard it is to get Giardia symotoms from even "heavily giardia contaminated" water. It is like telling you that you need a gun to protect you from bears on the AT.
speaking of cypto
How is crypto removed from drinking water?
Treating drinking water using normal doses of disinfectants such as chlorine does not kill Cryptosporidium oocysts. Researchers have found it takes 90 minutes to kill 90 percent of Cryptosporidium oocysts in a water sample treated with 80 milligrams of chlorine per liter of water. Normally, chlorine is applied at about one milligram per liter. Stronger disinfectants, such as ozone, do a better job of killing these protozoans in a shorter time.
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/water/dwg/Crypto.htm
and from the cdc
Do not rely on chemicals to disinfect water and kill Cryptosporidium. Because it has a thick outer shell, this particular parasite is highly resistant to disinfectants such as chlorine and iodine.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/parasites/cryptosporidiosis/factsht_cryptosporidiosis.htm
smokymtnsteve
11-24-2006, 19:28
Who is most at risk for cryptosporidiosis?
People who are most likely to become infected with Cryptosporidium include:
Children who attend day care centers, including diaper-aged children
Child care workers
Parents of infected children
International travelers
Backpackers, hikers, and campers who drink unfiltered, untreated water
Swimmers who swallow water while swimming in swimming pools, lakes, rivers, ponds, and streams
People who drink from shallow, unprotected wells
People who swallow water from contaminated sources
SGT Rock
11-24-2006, 23:47
"Threat" is relative: People most at risk from a bear attack are probably hikers who cook in camp. Thousands still do it ever year without a problem. Now you could take some bear spray and/or a gun because there is a threat. But it is heavy and statistically we know you will probably never use it. If you wanna carry weight for comfort, carry a coffee press :sun
Same with crypto. The threat is overrated.
Seems like every year on the trail everyone gets done just fine without an outbreak of crypto ever reported. In fact the two biggest outbreaks of food water contamination I remember hearing about were from food and/or water from stores and food joints along the trail - the last one was Hep A (that is a virus). When was the last crypto outbreak in the US? On the AT? :-?
But then again if I had a compromised immune system I would probably be a little paranoid about getting anything - but especially a virus. I got a down bag wet once so now I triple layer my down. The same logic could apply here too - I could want to switch to a heavier and less efficient synthetic bag because they are "warmer" when wet (even thought nothing is warm when wet) - but thousands of hikers still effectively use down every year and so have I in the 21 years since I got that down bag wet once. And the same thing sort of applies here - a filter only protects as well as you mention when it is new out of the box. Roland Muesser had some lab test data in his book on long distance hiking that showed a filter, after about a month of regular use (as I remember it - my copy is in the US), has about a 70% efficiency rate anyway. So while you would be a little "safer" with a filer, the truth is you probably are not safe with a filter if you hike and use it regularly.
And in all that time I have never had a filter and have never (well except for a product test but it clogged on me and I threw it away - plus wrote it a bad review) got giardia or crypto either :D LOL
chickadee
11-30-2006, 17:23
I probably purified my water 3 or 4 times with a drop of bleach per liter. In Maine, I should have taken a pump, but I had a few friends that were kind enough to let me borrow.
Roland Mueser surveyed 134 hikers in 1989 and got some interesting results, although some things may have changed since then. He found that 43 percent used iodine, 30 percent filtered, 11 percent boiled, 3 percent used chlorine and 13 percent used no treatment. The survey here at Whiteblaze gives different results, but may not be statistically accurate for thru-hiker experience.
The important thing is what Muesser found about incident rates: Treatment type did not matter. 26 to 30 percent of the hikers surveyed got some kind of gastrointestinal upset regardless of what method they used. 9 percent got giardia using filters. 6 percent got it when using iodine. Only 3 percent of the non-treaters got giardia. To try to explain these results Mueser discussed several scientific studies which seemed to confirm his conclusion: Hikers got gastrointestinal bugs from each other when sharing food, water bottles, dishes or self-infected by poor hygene and sloppy dish washing, not usually from the water.
There are more recent studies which you can dig out easily. They tend to confirm Mueser's conclusion.
Look at Long Distance Hiking: Lessons form the Appalachian Trail, Roland Mueser, Ragged Mountain Press, 1998. pp. 92 - 101.
Okie Dokie
11-30-2006, 23:56
On my thru I carried a Katadyn water filter and filtered everything that didn't come from a faucet...even spring water...never got sick...filtered everything because I had no health insurance at the time, heh...I was on pace with a couple that used a drop of regular bleach (chlorine) per liter of canteen water and they never got sick either...if I was heading out on a thru next March I would probably take a very very small bottle of bleach and an eye dropper and that would be it...I'd choose my water sources carefully of course...the biggest danger I saw on the AT was the potential for human contamination at certain water sources...
SGT Rock
12-01-2006, 04:57
Roland Mueser surveyed 134 hikers in 1989 and got some interesting results, although some things may have changed since then. He found that 43 percent used iodine, 30 percent filtered, 11 percent boiled, 3 percent used chlorine and 13 percent used no treatment. The survey here at Whiteblaze gives different results, but may not be statistically accurate for thru-hiker experience.
The important thing is what Muesser found about incident rates: Treatment type did not matter. 26 to 30 percent of the hikers surveyed got some kind of gastrointestinal upset regardless of what method they used. 9 percent got giardia using filters. 6 percent got it when using iodine. Only 3 percent of the non-treaters got giardia. To try to explain these results Mueser discussed several scientific studies which seemed to confirm his conclusion: Hikers got gastrointestinal bugs from each other when sharing food, water bottles, dishes or self-infected by poor hygene and sloppy dish washing, not usually from the water.
There are more recent studies which you can dig out easily. They tend to confirm Mueser's conclusion.
Look at Long Distance Hiking: Lessons form the Appalachian Trail, Roland Mueser, Ragged Mountain Press, 1998. pp. 92 - 101.
Actually Spock, not to quibble, but that that was were people that reported getting sick - not actual confirmed cases of Giardia. Read it again. Got quite a few articles around here that say chances are very good that people who think they have giardia but don't have a doctor confirming it are probably wrong. More likely a stomach virus or some other sort of bacteria.
We all get an occasional case of upset stomach and/or Diarrhea while in the relative safety of our own homes and seldom do we know with certainty exactly what caused it. But when we get it on the trail, the culprit blamed is almost always bad water. Strange, isnt it?
Now if you take a large wad of just any folks, strap backpackpacks onto them and then point them north from Amicalola, walking over the infamous PUDS, have them begin eating strange, peculiar meals that they have been unaccustomed to eating, and i submit that more than a normal average will develop the same above cases of upset stomach and/or diarrhea, while drinking perfectly good water. Even runners (no pun intended) get it occasionally:D
SGT Rock,
You are right. I've heard lots of hikers claim to have had giardia, but the symptoms and timing were just wrong. I got it in 1973 on the Rio Grande. I went through 3 docs before I found one educated in Mexico who knew what to test for. In 1973 giardia was rare. A couple of days of the runs is not giardia. I had a close personal relationship with the toilet seat for three weeks.
SGT Rock
12-01-2006, 13:10
SGT Rock,
You are right. I've heard lots of hikers claim to have had giardia, but the symptoms and timing were just wrong. I got it in 1973 on the Rio Grande. I went through 3 docs before I found one educated in Mexico who knew what to test for. In 1973 giardia was rare. A couple of days of the runs is not giardia. I had a close personal relationship with the toilet seat for three weeks.
My sympathies. I hear that if you get a bad dose of it, the stuff can really suck. If it is anything like dysentery it is the pits.
SGT,
Let me tell you... Well, maybe not.
Here's the thing: Giardia has a 2 week incubation period. Most hikers are home before it hits, fortunately. Anyone who is still in the woods when it hits is going to leave spores everywhere. You just don't make it as far as 200 feet from water. You are lucky to get up from the last siege. And it lasts a LONG time. Therefore, if as many thru-hikers actually got giardia as believe they got it, no water on the AT would be safe. No way. Yet, that does not seem to be the case.
SGT Rock
12-01-2006, 14:09
My experience with Dysentery - you drink water and 10 minutes later it is coming out the other end - and not through the right orifice. when it comes to eating - forget about it. If Giardia is anything like that, you only want to sleep and take whatever it takes to make it go away. Food and drink only seem to make it worse.
SGT Rock,
I just found the Rockwell article you put up in another forum... Good stuff that confirms my suspicions and long-term practice of not sharing food or utensils carelessly, good personal hygiene, bleach or iodine for suspect sources. The only unsuspect source I don't treat at all is a spring that is not obviously contaminated by adjacent runoff or a shallow aquifer. Surface streams, no matter how clear are suspect. I once found a dead horse upstream from where I had dipped my Sierra cup. Not doing that again.
To try to explain these results Mueser discussed several scientific studies which seemed to confirm his conclusion: Hikers got gastrointestinal bugs from each other when sharing food, water bottles, dishes or self-infected by poor hygene and sloppy dish washing, not usually from the water.
I do not think that from Mueser's survey that any real conclusinons can be made as to how hikers "usually" did or did not get sick. It was not a "scientific" survey. It was not even a "study".
Panzer
[[It was not a "scientific" survey. It was not even a "study".]]
True. He refers to formal studies to try to explain the results he got in the survey -- which was, as you say, not conducted with statistical rigor. The studies he referrs to are another matter.
tarbender
12-04-2006, 22:18
I didn't treat water most of the time. When I did I added a couple of drops of bleach to each liter. I suffered from one stomach bug the whole trip which probably didn't have anything to do with bad water IMO.
Panzer1,
You might want to look at the Journal of the Wilderness Medical Society at: http://www.wemjournal.org/wmsonline/?request=index-html The archives are searchable and open to the public. There are several articles on giardia and other gastrointestinal discomforts as well as evaluations of the efficacy of different water treatments.
Spirit Walker
12-05-2006, 01:39
I have a different sort of question. Out west we found a lot of water sources that had dead animals in them. In PA we drank from a stream and discovered a dead deer just upstream the next morning when we left our campsite (not on the AT). Because we have run into so many water sources that had dead animals (mice, squirrels, birds, bats, etc.) I filter any standing water. So, my question is - what harm would happen if I did drink that water? Not giardia, obviously -- but what disease would I have to worry about if I did drink the contaminated water? If possible, I'd move on to another source, but what if there is no other source? In India people drink from the Ganges - and they "bury" their dead in that river. So are dead animals harmless?
Good question about the dead animals but I suspect it might not occur very often. The E. Coli out break of the NJ Taco bells may have been caused by "undercooked meat" but more likely from feces upon unwashed human hands.
Some appropriate passages from the article:
E. coli, or Escherichia coli, is a common and ordinarily harmless bacteria the feces of humans and livestock, but certain strains can cause abdominal cramps, fever, bloody diarrhea, kidney failure, blindness, paralysis, even death.
Most E. coli infections are associated with undercooked meat. The bacteria also can be found on sprouts or leafy vegetables such as spinach. Earlier this year, three people died and more than 200 fell ill from an outbreak that was traced to packaged spinach grown in California. The bacteria also can be passed from person to person if they do not thoroughly wash their hands after going to the bathroom.
According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the dangerous E. coli strain 0157:H7 infects about 73,000 Americans a year and kills 61.
The article itself:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061204/ap_on_he_me/e_coli_outbreak_12
Just a little more indication that just possibly all our water is not so bad afterall. But shaking hands while greeting a fellow hiker just might be, Especially since you dont know where his/her hands just were:D
First Need the one piece of gear I will never part with. I don't care about the weight the peace of mind is worth it. I have too many gastro problems to risk it.