View Full Version : Nalgeneless Winter Nights
Couldn't decide where to post this, but I somehow contrived it to be a gear question with my sleep deprived mind. I know winter is a long ways off, but... Last winter I was still carrying a Nalgene bottle. At night I'd put the water in it and throw it in the bag with me to keep it from freezing. Since then, I've ditched it and gone totally with Platypi to save weight. Now as winter is approaching (ok, so it's still months away, but it's my favorite time to hike so count it off as a boy waiting for Christmas) I'm beginning to wonder what to do. I'm afraid of rolling over on a platypus and squashing it, or it just leaking for whatever reason. That wouldn't be good in a down bag, or any bag for that matter. I was thinking if I left the salt out of my food, I could add it to the water. That would lower the freezing point to ~15-20 deg. Though I'm not sure how concentrated it would have to be to do that. I add emer-gen'c to my drinking water (which has at least some salt in it) and I have noticed it's less likely to freeze. I'm sure there's something simple I'm missing, but I'm not sure what it could be. Any suggestions? :D speedy
hey , I was wondering about that myself..I was either thinking of a regular hot water bag..they do not weight that much..also I was looking at the MSR dromidary bag ..it says it can handle boiling water or freezing conditions..I am just not sure if they would put off enough heat..since they are thick, I think.. but if they did work it would be awsome..so if anyone has 1st hand experiance with this type bag ...please let me know
Emsadida
09-09-2006, 08:10
If you put the platy down by your feet or up by your head, you'll be fine. Before you got to bed, just remember to check out the platy to make sure it's fully sealed and to put the bite valve outside the bag. You can thaw the valve easily enough during breakfast but it's a mess if it leaks inside the bag. Another advantage to having the platy up by your head is that on the long winter nights, when you wake up thirst the platy is right there to comfort you, and it doubles as a pillow.
Amigi'sLastStand
09-09-2006, 08:31
Yup, that is the best way to keep a platy from freezing. Fill it 3/4 of the way up and use it as a pillow. Stick inside a spare T shirt and sleep away. I would get a tube that has a shutoff valve if you do this.
You would need a lot of salt to lower the freezing temp by 15F. It wouldnt taste peticularly good, or be good for ya.
And I've boiled water inside a 1L platy with no problem. This only risk is filling one to the top, then having the water freeze as water expands of course.
Skidsteer
09-09-2006, 08:31
Speedy why don't you just carry a Nalgene for your winter hikes?
Farr Away
09-09-2006, 09:54
Put it in a large ziploc?
Far Away, you have a talent for making people feel dumb. That's one of those "why didn't I think of that" type things. Why must you bring your logic and reasoning into my thread? Seriously, that sounds like a great idea for added insurance.
Skids, 1L Nalgene = 4.5 oz, 1L Platypus = 0.6 oz (it's an illness I know) If I'm going to save that kind of weight anywhere else, I'm pretty much gonna have to start hacking off limbs. Well, there is lightening up my hammock, but I haven't gotten around to that yet. Seriously, I've been hesitant to put up my gear list, but I'll do it sometime. It's not so much that 4oz weighs a ton and is hard to carry, but more that everything adds up. When you're carrying a 400oz (25lb) baseweight, 4oz is only 1%. If your carrying a 64oz (4lb) baseweight, 4 oz is over 6% of your total. Considering I used to carry 2 nalgenes that's over 10% of the baseweight. :D speedy
Skidsteer
09-09-2006, 12:43
Skids, 1L Nalgene = 4.5 oz, 1L Platypus = 0.6 oz (it's an illness I know) If I'm going to save that kind of weight anywhere else, I'm pretty much gonna have to start hacking off limbs. Well, there is lightening up my hammock, but I haven't gotten around to that yet. Seriously, I've been hesitant to put up my gear list, but I'll do it sometime. It's not so much that 4oz weighs a ton and is hard to carry, but more that everything adds up. When you're carrying a 400oz (25lb) baseweight, 4oz is only 1%. If your carrying a 64oz (4lb) baseweight, 4 oz is over 6% of your total. Considering I used to carry 2 nalgenes that's over 10% of the baseweight. :D speedy
Well I grant you the weight savings.
But for me it seems to make sense to bring one because I like coffee or tea when I hike. Since I freezer bag cook and don't carry a lemonade jar it makes sense to me not to bring a coffee mug which weighs about the same as a Nalgene and only does one thing well.
A 4 lb. baseweight sounds great to me but not at the expense of coffee. :D
Farr Away
09-09-2006, 13:08
Far Away, you have a talent for making people feel dumb. That's one of those "why didn't I think of that" type things. Why must you bring your logic and reasoning into my thread? Seriously, that sounds like a great idea for added insurance.
LOL.:D Most of our hiking is in the GSMNP (= lots & lots of rain); we ziploc everything! Well ... just about.
I have a pressbot (http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=48010194&parent_category_rn=4500495&vcat=REI_SEARCH) that I took on a trip or two last winter. I've since tried to move to emer-gen'c's instant coffee (http://www.alacer.com/cgi-bin/dbsearch.exe?mdb=/products.mdb,tbl=products,DB_code=59,DBCOMP=ABS,te mplate=/products/returntitle.htm), but it doesn't have caffeine. Yeah, not even close to tasting the same either. I've heard really good reviews and thought about giving Java Juice (http://www.javajuiceextract.com/) a try, but at $1 a packet, that stuff's expensive!
I freezer bag cook too. I use a Snowpeak Trek 900. I heat up enough water for coffee or hot chocolate and breakfast. I keep a single qt or pt (can't remember) ziplock for hot drinks. Morning's drink goes into drink bag, food is already in it's bag of course. Water gets divided between drink bag and breakfast bag. Drink bag gets put inside now empty Trek 900 and I roll the bag top down over the lip of the Trek. Avoids the burned lip single walled mug problem and keeps me from having to wash the mug if water's scarce.
The one thing I have found is my level of pickiness with coffee is directly related to my level of comfort. At home, all I drink is fresh ground 100% Kona. When I'm half frozen, wet, cold, tired, I'll even drink Postum if it's hot. :D speedy
peter_pan
09-09-2006, 14:17
I fill my pot the night before....never mind what freezes, platy and or pot....Heat the pot for coffee.....put platy in the sun or under the jacket to thaw if necessary....no reason to sleep with the bladder unless continuous sub freezing weather is expected where the water is always kept under the jacket.
Pan
hikerjohnd
09-09-2006, 14:40
Just a thought - I enjoy a hot water bottle for those long cold winter nights. How about warming the water before putting it where ever you decide to put it. I too have ditched the Nalgene bottle in Summer, but I still carry my white bottle with the blue lid (the non-lexan type) for winter hikes. Comes in at 3.2 oz (I think - and yes Speedy, I too suffer the illenss) but those two and a half ounces are worth the comfort added. I just want to add that I do not use alcohol, so a bit of extra fuel is no problem for me.
Toolshed
09-09-2006, 17:28
I'm sorry, but for a 3.5oz weight differential, I'll carry the Nalgene. (Lexan).
I like the fact that I can boil water, fill the bottle and put it in the foot of my bag an hour before I turn in for a warm bag. It will continue to keep my feet warm throughout a large part of the night.
I found that hanging my Platy above me kept it from freezing this spring, early March. There were sometimes little 'catches' off ice when I started to drink from it, but never clogged or frozen completely. Once I was off and it was in the pack, it thawed out from the heat of my back immediately.
Amigi'sLastStand
09-09-2006, 19:41
I have heated my platy ( the water actually ) before bedding down. It's like...a small piece of heaven.;)
I know I asked this earlier in this thread but didnt get a response..does anyone have experiance with the dromidary bags? do they put off heat? if so you could heat 2 liters water add to bag add polar pure close lid put in bag and in the morning have good water available? just a thought:-?
Sorry Donjuan, didn't mean to ignore you. Just haven't ever used one. What's wrong with doing the same with a platypus? They sure are a lot cheaper and lighter. They don't come with the extra outter fabric shell, but I'm sure you could find or make something that would work. :D speedy
hey speedy..how well do you think that a platy would hold up to real hot water? my concern is with prolonged use it would begin to degrade and eventually ..you have a problem..:eek: the dromodary is graded for boiling temps over and over?? I dont really have experiance with either..but your right the platty is cheaper
Anybody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it shouldn't present a problem at all. Platypus even gives instructions on their website for using the bigger ones as boil in bag containers. With a ziplock bag (or two if you prefer) over it, I can't see you ever having a problem. I'd be really suprised if the dromodary isn't made out of the same type plastic underneath. If you used boiling water, I would recomend a cozy or something over it to keep from burning you/melting other stuff. :D speedy
Toolshed
09-09-2006, 23:06
I have tried very hot water in my old Dromedary bags (these were the early 90's droms that MSR eventually replaced for free. I found that the nylon neck would deform slightly with very hot water and start to leak a little.
I would suggest very warm water but not very hot water.
Amigi'sLastStand
09-09-2006, 23:11
From Platypussies website:
HOW DO I BOIL MY PLATYPUS?
Lay Platypus in a pot and keep mostly covered with water. Make sure that the Platypus is not resting on the bottom or sides of the pot. Also, do not cover the pot when boiling. Watch your Platypus for pressure building up in the bottle if water inside is boiling. Do not microwave your Platypus.
The Will
09-09-2006, 23:46
hey speedy..how well do you think that a platy would hold up to real hot water? my concern is with prolonged use it would begin to degrade and eventually ..you have a problem..:eek: the dromodary is graded for boiling temps over and over?? I dont really have experiance with either..but your right the platty is cheaper
I've done this before. . .filled a platy with boiling water to keep me warm at night. While I didn't feel as comfortable with this as I would have been with a Nalgene, there were no leaks. As long as you are confident that there are no puntures in the wall of the platy and the lid is secure you should be fine.
Skidsteer
09-14-2006, 21:44
I have a pressbot (http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=48010194&parent_category_rn=4500495&vcat=REI_SEARCH) that I took on a trip or two last winter. I've since tried to move to emer-gen'c's instant coffee (http://www.alacer.com/cgi-bin/dbsearch.exe?mdb=/products.mdb,tbl=products,DB_code=59,DBCOMP=ABS,te mplate=/products/returntitle.htm), but it doesn't have caffeine. Yeah, not even close to tasting the same either. I've heard really good reviews and thought about giving Java Juice (http://www.javajuiceextract.com/) a try, but at $1 a packet, that stuff's expensive!
I freezer bag cook too. I use a Snowpeak Trek 900. I heat up enough water for coffee or hot chocolate and breakfast. I keep a single qt or pt (can't remember) ziplock for hot drinks. Morning's drink goes into drink bag, food is already in it's bag of course. Water gets divided between drink bag and breakfast bag. Drink bag gets put inside now empty Trek 900 and I roll the bag top down over the lip of the Trek. Avoids the burned lip single walled mug problem and keeps me from having to wash the mug if water's scarce.
The one thing I have found is my level of pickiness with coffee is directly related to my level of comfort. At home, all I drink is fresh ground 100% Kona. When I'm half frozen, wet, cold, tired, I'll even drink Postum if it's hot. :D speedy
Speedy,
I wanted to make sure you saw this new thread. (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17406)
You got me thinkin'! :D
Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but platypus and camel backs always seem to leak at the wrong time.
For winter camping, best advice is a Lexan nalgene that you can fill with hot water and know that it will not leak. Peace of mind is usually worth the additional weight.
Just Jeff
09-15-2006, 10:21
I have a Nalgene wide mouth soft sided cantene...put almost-boiling water in it pretty often. It doesn't have a drink tube since it's just a cantene but I've never worried about a leak. And soft-sided means it conforms to my body so it's more comfortable and transfers more heat to me.
Haven't weighed it (sin, I know) - probably ~2 oz for the 48oz size if I had to guess.
Time To Fly 97
09-15-2006, 10:39
Speedy - I do respect your attention to weight. I carry far more weight, but maybe someday I'll change some of my bad habits.
Weight aside, I like carrying one nalgene for hot liquids (coffee/hot chocolate or almost boiling water for cold nights in my sleeping bag). They are pretty bombproof and don't retain tastes. I can taste plastic if I put hot liquids in a plastic water bottle, plus I just don't want to have one break if I rolled on it in the night.
The rest of my water is in a MSR Dromodary that I keep warm by using as a pillow. More weight, but again, bombproof.
Happy hiking!
TTF
vipahman
09-15-2006, 12:54
Platy guy here. I've used it down to the single digit overnights. I carry an extra bottle cover. So at night, my 2 1L platys go to sleep at my feet along with an empty hydration pipe. In the morning, there's nice cool (not frozen) water.
Also, if you carry a camera, phone, mp3 player, etc., keep them and the batteries next to your body so that they have juice for the next day.
Platys rule. My Nalgenes are for car camping now.
[quote=Just Jeff]I have a Nalgene wide mouth soft sided cantene...put almost-boiling water in it pretty often.
I have a 3 liter one of these but have always been fearfull of filling with hot water thinking the seams might give way in my sleeping bag (what a bummer)!
Has anyone else had experience with these Nalgene soft cantenes, either positive or negative?
Just Jeff
09-15-2006, 13:58
All positive so far for me. The only place that leaked in my platy was where the hard plastic at the valve meets the soft plastic...because I bent it and stressed it when I stuffed it in the pack. The Nalgene cantene has the same kind of connection at the top, but I don't stress it the same way since it's on top of the cantene. I roll it up and stuff it when empty...I can see some creases but it doesn't look like it'll leak anytime soon.
I've had three CamelBaks and two leaked, one platy w/ drink tube that leaked, and two Nalgene soft-sided cantenes that are pretty new but haven't leaked yet.
Has anyone else had experience with these Nalgene soft cantenes, either positive or negative?
I usually carry the 3 liter when backpacking. I use it to fetch water in the evening. Usually don't carry water in it. A get a couple of years out of one before it starts to leak.
When I do need to carry water in it, I strap it to the outside of my pack so it doesn't get everything inside damp.
lucky luke
09-16-2006, 02:49
hi guys,
a word on the dromedary sacks from msr.
i have used them on all my mountaineering expeditions. they handle hot water well. i have seen no use in filling boiling water into them and then wait for it to cool so i can handle the sack... what a waste of fuel.
they work well as pillows, again, certainly not when they are boiling hot! you can freeze the bag and just dip it into your pot to thaw it.
i carry a dromedary on top of my pack (inside!) for years now with no problem ever.
the only time one of the bags was leaking was when i drove over it with my car. the lid popped and the water splashed out. no hole in the sack, just screw the lid back on.
i love my dromedarys!
happy trails
lucky luke