View Full Version : winter bag comparison
hey blazers, I have a question..looking for answers..one of my final gear purchases is gonna be my bag..just cant make up my mind..its between a mountain hardwear 4th demension -20.with 56oz of fill with 8.5 inch loft..it weights almost 5 lbs found it for like$230.00 vs a slumber jack glacier -20 with 45oz fill .doesnt specify loft and weights 4lb 2oz for like $150.00..I could use that extra$$ toward my snowshoes..but I want to be warm 1st..the slumber jack looks kinda thin to me .but I have no experiance with that brand..this is gonna be a deep winter hike so warmth is of the most importance to me.. can anyone give advice or experiances here...thx:)
bigcranky
09-12-2006, 13:16
The Slumberjack bags that I have seen looked a little thing for their claimed temperature rating. YMMV.
In my very humble opinion, one of the best things you can use inside your sleeping bag in "deep winter" is a vapor barrier liner. The VBL does a couple of things for you:
1. It keeps you warmer by creating a moist microclimate around your body, which stops your "insensible" sweat production, and thus stops evaporative cooling.
2. The VBL keeps your own body moisture from getting your sleeping bag wet from the inside. Even if you take a synthetic bag, enough body moisture over time will reduce the loft and the warmth. Given the deep winter conditions, you won't be able to dry out the bag each day, and in fact you might find the moisture inside your bag freezing solid.
VBLs only work well below freezing, and I find a need to wear lightweight long johns and socks to avoid the clammy, sticky feeling inside what is essentially a big plastic bag. But it can be a good idea and a good use of <6 ounces in your pack. Here's one:
http://tinyurl.com/dpyhl
According to some totally unscientific math right quick, the slumberjack should come in around 6.8" of loft provided they are the same size. That's generally considered to be a 0 deg bag. It's expensive, but I've always found mt hardwear stuff to be pretty good. If it's any help, go check out the price for a westernmountaineering puma dl. After you recover from the $615 sticker shock, it should make this a lot easier. Where are you planning on taking it? :D speedy
thank you for the reply's.. yea I thought the slumber jack looked kinda over rated in "picture" comparisons vs the mountain hardwear..as for the VBL liner..I had thought about that..but would rather not deal with the sweat factor.I am going to use a thermolite bivy sack over my bag as extra warmth and wind block when needed..I will be bringing a set of cotton/fleece warm sweats to sleep in ONLY.." I know, cotton is a NO,NO..but just to sleep in it should be ok..I will be doing a winter thru starting in october..sobo
Oh yeah, you're the human popsicle guy. Now I remember who you are. :p As much as I hate to admit it with other hikers listening, cotton is great for sleeping in. Nothing wicks better than cotton--period. I would definitly take some polypro or something similar as a backup though until you can test the cotton to be sure. The problem with cotton is since it wicks (soaks up) so well (think sponge), on an extended hike that stays below freezing it has a very difficult time of ever letting go of that moisture. When this happens it really loses its loft. If you can ocasionally build a wood fire to dry it out, it should be fine. Just try not to get too hot while wearing it or obviously it'll get soaked a lot faster. I would pack something light as a backup til you can find out for sure though. Good luck on your thru. :D speedy
http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/bagtable.cfm
Skidsteer
09-12-2006, 17:26
Consider the Mtn. Hardware.
I have a Slumberjack +20 that's good to about +30 if I wear all my clothes.
If you do what you're planning to do then the last piece of gear you want to skimp on is your bag. Good Luck! :)
vipahman
09-13-2006, 10:57
hey blazers, I have a question..looking for answers..one of my final gear purchases is gonna be my bag..just cant make up my mind..its between a mountain hardwear 4th demension -20.with 56oz of fill with 8.5 inch loft..it weights almost 5 lbs found it for like$230.00 vs a slumber jack glacier -20 with 45oz fill .doesnt specify loft and weights 4lb 2oz for like $150.00..I could use that extra$$ toward my snowshoes..but I want to be warm 1st..the slumber jack looks kinda thin to me .but I have no experiance with that brand..this is gonna be a deep winter hike so warmth is of the most importance to me.. can anyone give advice or experiances here...thx:)
My Marmot Lithium 0-degree down bag has 900 fill, 7" loft, weighs 2 lbs 8 oz and has been used down to single digits. Without a doubt I could have slept in my undies and not felt cold. As it was, I was toasty as a chicken in a roaster. :banana So it should be good to at least -10 degrees with the right clothing.
for the price and the weight you can't beat it, plus sierra design don't make junk.........
http://www.sierradesigns.com/bags.display.php?id=609
thanks for the link..but I am gonna need something a little warmer than the 15 degree..so I think I am gonna go with the mountain hardwear -20..its heavy but it has 56oz fill /8.5in loft..but weights in @ 4LB,15oz:eek: but it should do the job and I have decided to purchase the VBL to maintain warmth and not kill me insulation..thx for your imput though it is very appreciated:)
bigcranky
09-13-2006, 14:58
Donjuan, you won't regret the VBL, I think. You will definitely want to use lightweight synthetic long johns to sleep, not cotton. Seriously -- not cotton. You don't want a fiber that absorbs and holds water; it'll never dry. Note that the VBL is really only usable when the temps get into the teens, at least in my experience.
I recall reading about the 1986 Steger expedition in which their synthetic bags gained about 35 pounds over the course of a few weeks -- their sweat was condensing and freezing inside the insulation. This is what the VBL prevents. It's not something I ever worry about on a typical winter weekend trip, but your trip is much more like an expedition. You should try to hang your bag every morning to air it out. Even in very cold temps, much of the moisture will evaporate or sublimate.
IIRC you are leaving October 9, yes? You'll have time to acclimate your body to the weather, then, and to nail down your gear list while you hike, before the serious winter settles in.
thx for reply, yea since I am gonna go with the VBL..I am going to use silk to sleep in..condesation in the bag really worried me..so yes I will ditch the cotton/fleece idea..but I will not use the VBL until it atleast gets down to 10..till then my -20 should keep me pretty warm..also I was wondering since you recomend hanging my bag in the morning, would it be better to turn it inside out and do this?..as always thx..Don
Alligator
09-13-2006, 15:15
thx for reply, yea since I am gonna go with the VBL..I am going to use silk to sleep in..condesation in the bag really worried me..so yes I will ditch the cotton/fleece idea..but I will not use the VBL until it atleast gets down to 10..till then my -20 should keep me pretty warm..also I was wondering since you recomend hanging my bag in the morning, would it be better to turn it inside out and do this?..as always thx..DonCold would be coming from the outside in, so one would expect moisture to condense at some point beyond the inside so probably the outside out but...
you could always unzip it:) .
Don't skimp on bag or shelter. I never regretted forking out $550.00 in 1986 for a Stephenson Warmlite. Only problem with it is I don't want to get out of it in negative temps. (Oh, yeah, it is a little heavy with the built in vapor barrier and all those zippers).
wow tink $550.00:eek: ..well my bag is gonna be the MHW and also my tent is a MHW tephrra 22.looks pretty storm worthy.and freestanding but kinda heavy at 4.11..but I gotta expect more weight for winter
wow tink $550.00:eek: For a bombproof winter bag from SW that is not unheard of, but it still causes this face::eek:
whats with this bombproof stuff anyway? really :-? would you fair any better in a 550.00 bag ..who is sleeping on a bomb range these days...:banana does that meen if you were near a bomb explosion as long as you were in this bag you would be juuust fine..lol..OK;)
bigcranky
09-13-2006, 16:37
You would need to have the new Kevlar option for the shell.
whats with this bombproof stuff anyway? really :-?Bombproof in the backpacking sense means it'll stand up to whatever you throw at it. Just a little lingo. For non-winter AT backpacking, bombproof is overkill. Tinker can spend a comfortable night in negative F. temps with his bag. I've reached the absolute limit of my 15deg bag and it's not a pleasant feeling.
Alligator
09-13-2006, 17:00
My winter tent comes with a vestibule and a turret.
j/k I use bombproof when discussing my winter stuff too.
My winter tent comes with a vestibule and a turret.That is smart cause everyone knows that the terrorists show up on the AT only in winter.;)
my tent is a MHW tephrra 22
I thought TNF made the tephra? If it's the one I'm thinking about, the main body is covered in noseeum with just a rainfly covering all that. You'd be really smart to devise some way to keep the wind from blowing between those two layers. Maybe something as simple as taffeta with velcro would be enough. I've got a Kelty of similar design that I used to lug around (crazy when I think my 3 season base is now lighter than that thing) and while you'd never notice it in warmer weather, that thing felt like a wind tunnel in the winter time. Just something to think about. :D speedy
sorry bout that speedy ..you are right..got caught up in the mountain hardwear moment..it is the northface:)
hey speedy..I had heard lots of good reviews on that tent..is there a draft problem that you know of? thx for the headsup..what do you think about drapeing my sil/nylon poncho over the tent body..and then putting on the rain fly?:)
I don't think it's so much of a problem as a "feature." When it warms up some, it'll be really nice. I just looked at a picture of it, and it does appear that the rainfly comes closer to the ground than on my kelty. Hopefully it won't be as big of a problem for you. I don't know how the poncho on top would work since the problem comes from the bottom edges. If there's snow around, I guess you could always use that as a wind block. The idea for winter, double wall tents is that moisture inside the tent goes through the first layer (noseeum in this case) and freezes on the outer waterproof layer, so you don't really want to block the mesh with something unbreatheable like silnylon or condensation would be a problem. Since I don't have one here to play with, it's kinda hard to figure out a solution, but maybe you could kinda roll the poncho into a loose log and stuff it inbetween the base of the tent and the base of the fly on the windward side? The leeward side should be ok without anything I would think and would still provide you with some ventilation. Overall, I wouldn't worry about it too much, but that was just something I noticed. :D speedy
hey speedy..I had heard lots of good reviews on that tent..is there a draft problem that you know of? thx for the headsup..what do you think about drapeing my sil/nylon poncho over the tent body..and then putting on the rain fly?:)That will be one drafty SOB Don. I'm sure the tent is sound, but your trip plans and that tent don't match. As you know, ventalation is a good thing, but too much in winter could be a drag when you are talking weeks on end. I have used a tarp in full winter down here in NC with a good bag for a couple nights and gotten by OK, but after that I just wanted to be warm again. Just my two cents.:)
thx speedy and ed..well I am hopeing that I only have to use the tent spareingly..like when I cant get to a shelter..since at this time of year I should pretty much have the shelters to myself ..though I know not always..and with it being free standing..if I have to I will set it up in the shelter..now I know thats bad form but I am talking if it is extremely cold and windy or such.and the shelter is empty..as for the tent if set up in snow I will pack bottom line with snow to seal out wind entering from bottom..thx for input..Don
Skidsteer
09-13-2006, 22:53
thx speedy and ed..well I am hopeing that I only have to use the tent spareingly..like when I cant get to a shelter..since at this time of year I should pretty much have the shelters to myself ..though I know not always..and with it being free standing..if I have to I will set it up in the shelter..now I know thats bad form but I am talking if it is extremely cold and windy or such.and the shelter is empty..as for the tent if set up in snow I will pack bottom line with snow to seal out wind entering from bottom..thx for input..Don
Just my opinion, Don....
I like to hike in winter when it's cold and snowy. I like everything about it except wind. I don't like wind, nope, nope, nope.
Sleep in your tent. You'll be warmer than if you sleep in the shelter. Again, just my opinion....
Just my opinion, Don....
I like to hike in winter when it's cold and snowy. I like everything about it except wind. I don't like wind, nope, nope, nope.
Sleep in your tent. You'll be warmer than if you sleep in the shelter. Again, just my opinion....This was my point in a roundabout way. Shelters are colder than a good tent in winter. That, I am sure of. The Southern Appalachians in January and February can get bitter cold.
Skidsteer
09-13-2006, 23:15
This was my point in a roundabout way. Shelters are colder than a good tent in winter. That, I am sure of. The Southern Appalachians in January and February can get bitter cold.
Yup. Like Speedy said too. Lock that tent down on the windward side and hunker.
Still warmer than a shelter with air blowing straight up, in, and all around.
Don't skimp on bag or shelter. I never regretted forking out $550.00 in 1986 for a Stephenson Warmlite. Only problem with it is I don't want to get out of it in negative temps. (Oh, yeah, it is a little heavy with the built in vapor barrier and all those zippers).
Oh, and here's my tent for winter solo use:
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/262789881/1262791629059664855XQxwfC
Earl Grey
09-14-2006, 23:56
Oh, and here's my tent for winter solo use:
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/262789881/1262791629059664855XQxwfC
You dont look very happy there, lol. "Damn its cold, what the hell am I doing out here."
You dont look very happy there, lol. "Damn its cold, what the hell am I doing out here."
Nah, more like "Why in the world am I in my backyard instead of the woods?"
I took the photo as part of my "gear catalog".