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VictoriaM
09-15-2006, 15:36
Lately I've started thinking about this a lot. I'm not worried for my safety on my thru next year - I'm aware that hikers are a generally harmless lot. What I'm worried about is that male hikers will make my hike unpleasant with their attitudes. So, have any female long distance hikers here (and especially thru hikers) found that male hikers have made a negative impact on their experience?

Of course not all men behave this way, but what I've found both here (a little bit) and out on day hikes (a lot) so far is that an awful lot of them seem to have a very low opinion of women, and make lots of rude jokes and comments to show it. What is it about outdoorsy males that makes (some of) them so hateful towards women? I'd really love the answer to that question.

QHShowoman
09-15-2006, 15:37
What is it about outdoorsy males that makes (some of) them so hateful towards women?

Testosterone?

VictoriaM
09-15-2006, 15:41
Testosterone?

Well, yes. But there's a lot more to it than that. My wonderful husband is one of the most "manly" and testosterone-driven men I've ever met, and he always treats women with respect.

Time To Fly 97
09-15-2006, 15:52
I didn't witness this on my thru-hike. There was great comraderie among men and women. If anything, I think the men were more gentlemanly than ever because proportionally there were less women on the trail and the female perspective is welcomed.

I think you may be in for a nice surprise Victoria. Lot of really good people out there hiking on the AT.

Happy hiking!

TTF

Creek Dancer
09-15-2006, 16:02
Lately I've started thinking about this a lot. I'm not worried for my safety on my thru next year - I'm aware that hikers are a generally harmless lot. What I'm worried about is that male hikers will make my hike unpleasant with their attitudes. So, have any female long distance hikers here (and especially thru hikers) found that male hikers have made a negative impact on their experience?

Of course not all men behave this way, but what I've found both here (a little bit) and out on day hikes (a lot) so far is that an awful lot of them seem to have a very low opinion of women, and make lots of rude jokes and comments to show it. What is it about outdoorsy males that makes (some of) them so hateful towards women? I'd really love the answer to that question.

I am not a thru-hiker, but I have done plenty of long distance hikes on the AT and other trails. Honestly, I have not experienced the type of hiker you describe. They might be out there, but I haven't met one. If someone around you has a bad attitude, it is up to you whether or not that has a negative impact on your hike.

Footslogger
09-15-2006, 16:07
That was one of my big concerns going into my thru in 2003. But I found most of the women to be well behaved.

Just kidding ...

'Slogger

QHShowoman
09-15-2006, 16:07
I have to say, I've read several journals of women who've hiked the AT alone and few have referenced being treated poorly by other male hikers on the trail.

I think that perhaps men treat women poorly when they feel threatened. Thru-hiking the AT is a great challenge for most -- regardless of gender -- so I think it might deflate a man's ego to come across a woman who is keeping pace with him if he is insecure in his own ability to complete his hike. Others may feel the need to show off by taunting or teasing a woman, and others may simply be jerks.

I think if you are a strong, powerful woman, you are going to get taunted and laughed at by men regardless of where you go.

QHShowoman
09-15-2006, 16:09
I think if you are a strong, powerful woman, you are going to get taunted and laughed at by men regardless of where you go.

I meant to say by some men ...

Time To Fly 97
09-15-2006, 16:13
I have to say, I've read several journals of women who've hiked the AT alone and few have referenced being treated poorly by other male hikers on the trail.

I think that perhaps men treat women poorly when they feel threatened. Thru-hiking the AT is a great challenge for most -- regardless of gender -- so I think it might deflate a man's ego to come across a woman who is keeping pace with him if he is insecure in his own ability to complete his hike. Others may feel the need to show off by taunting or teasing a woman, and others may simply be jerks.

I think if you are a strong, powerful woman, you are going to get taunted and laughed at by men regardless of where you go.

If you were keeping pace with me on the AT, I'd be smiling and nodding...and you woudl get a compliment if it came up in conversation. If you were sucking wind, I would say something positive and give you a jolly rancher or something...same thing for a guy. I'm not alone.

Happy hiking!

TTF

Appalachian Tater
09-15-2006, 16:21
Never did I witness any sort of poor behavior of men applied towards women because they were women, but did observe just the opposite--good behavior of men towards women because they were women. There were some hikers with poor behavior in general.

There was one case I heard about when a thru-hiker (who afterwards left the trail, thank goodness) was inexcusably hostile towards a female but it was because she was homosexual, not because she was female.

SGT Rock
09-15-2006, 16:53
I resisted posting here because I know women generally want us to stay out of this forum. But after conferring with my wiser half, she told me I should go ahead.

Now take this from someone that has worked in a largely male world for the last 21 years and has been in the situation where small groups of women or only one woman has been injected into the dynamic. I think this experience sort of helps understand what you may experience.

Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus. Basically we not only talk differently, we also have different customs and culture.

Men do have the whole knuckle dragging testosterone thing going on. It is hard wired into us and then re-enforced by the world we grow up in. Some men understand that less than others. There are some guys that pretend to be PC all the time, but they are generally full of ****. But some can overcome their upbringing and don't display what I am about to talk about.

In a male group, men cut on each other. We make fun of farts, hair, smells, mannerisms, clothing, genital size, and whatever else we can do to each other. It is part of the male bonding process. A guy normally is expected to give as good as he gets. Men that over-react are considered less than equal as well. When a woman enters into this dynamic, many men do the same thing - it is sort of their way of letting a woman into this group dynamic - but often they do not realize it doesn't get the received the same way. Now some women get it and give back as good as they get. But some women also respond very negatively - and that gets taken the same way as the man that responds negatively. They are usually misclassified as a ***** by the knuckle draggers. So a woman that understands can get along (she may not like it, but some do it) and others that do not like it and say so may find some men to not get what the big fuss is about.

Now, that said. Some of these same knuckle draggers consider themselves gentlemen. They would stand up to someone at a bar or to someone that they recognized has crossed the line in the knuckle dragger games of male bonding. We recognize there are some of our clan that are jerks and don't even do good at our ways. Many of them are immature kids about 18 and still leaning how to even talk to a woman, and some are those guys that never grow up or get it. Even some of these jerks claim to respect women, but only women that meet their standards.

And to finish this out. When a knuckle dragger simply jokingly cuts on a strong woman like he would a man, it isn't because he wants to take a strong woman down a notch, sometimes they are trying to show her he feels she is equal. But, being a knuckle dragger he doesn't always get why that is not received well.

OK, that sums up how some men can appear to not respect women but still actually respect women and not show it correctly.

Brrrb Oregon
09-15-2006, 17:03
Personally, I wouldn't make this about sexism. Sexism is just a subset of obnoxious.

To me, calling it sexism makes it about the victim's sex. That is useful in legal situations, as when you need to show a pattern of victim selection or motive for a lawsuit. Otherwise, when people are rude, I don't think it is so helpful to make it about you...and I mean when you turn it over in your own head or when you need to blow off steam about it. Some just like to see if they can get a rise out of other people. I could make the list go on and on, but it is hardly something confined to males. It is typical of people who don't get beyond adolescence. This is about them, not you.

Live so as to gain the respect of the people you respect. Treat everyone with kindness and a sense of humor. Do not take yourself too seriously, and especially don't take rude or thoughtless comments too seriously. They are just not worth it. If you are competent, that will make itself obvious to all but the thickest trail companions. The rest can go....fly a kite. If you are sometimes incompetent....learn from it and laugh it off. Any landing you walk away from is a good one! Teasing is much easier to take if you lead the pack of those amused.

I grew up with six brothers and was the only girl in a class of six, with the two classes ahead of me having similar composition. The good news is that you don't need to become "one of the guys" to get along in a group that is almost all guys, which is d****d fortunate, because you can't do it. Of course, you may not whine, complain, show a thin skin, say things behind the back that you don't say to the face, talk when you should listen, or try to use being female to make others take on more of the load. Male sexists will particularly use those behaviors against you, but nobody likes it, so you'll have no friends to defend you.

Asuming those faults are not in your persona--and most grown women worth their salt are not like that--you only need to be you. If you blow off the yappers, the ones that try to upset you for jollies, and gain the respect of the ones worthy of respect, the yappers generally move on to other prey. This is true of male and female yappers. The only things that tend to differ--this is by no means univeral--are the perceived faults in others that they look to exploit to their advantage. Some will turn it up out of jealousy, which is just pathetic, but most don't have that much of an appetite for failure.

If I sound like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, it is because we need to be grown-ups, even if the yappers are still very gradeschool. I may get flamed for saying this, but even though grown-ups are very much alike--with the delightful differences being what remain-- immature men act like "boys" and immature women act like "girls". Dealing with the immature requires a trip back to gradeschool to figure them out. Our behavior must still be adult, though, or they'll have our number....and nobody but nobody will feel a bit sorry for us. Smart people will give our whole bad scene a wide berth.

In the end, it's your hike. Come what may, as long as you can keep smiling, it will stay that way.
Wasn't even school much better, the days that we remembered that? :sun

Jack Tarlin
09-15-2006, 17:06
I agree with just about everything Rock said except the last sentence.

A person that doesn't show respect correctly isn't showing respect.

Merely because someone knows "inside" what is appropriate and correct, this doesn't excuse outward rudeness or invility.

SGT Rock
09-15-2006, 17:11
I agree with just about everything Rock said except the last sentence.

A person that doesn't show respect correctly isn't showing respect.

Merely because someone knows "inside" what is appropriate and correct, this doesn't excuse outward rudeness or invility.

OK you got me. What I should have said was:

"OK, that sums up how some men can disrespect women but still actually THINK they respect women - but they do not realize they are not showing it correctly."

Just Jeff
09-15-2006, 17:37
I agree with Rock - it's more about sensitivity than gender. Guys "insult" each other - it's just how we relate. At my last base, we had a guy who took one of the jokes personally, and dressed down someone for it, and he was never really seen as fitting in. OTOH, we had girls that would give it right back and they were part of the group.

So two things may be happening if it looks like sexism.
1 - They

blackbishop351
09-15-2006, 18:40
I might catch alot of flak from the other guys over this, but it bears on the topic and hand so I'll stick my neck out anyway. If you don't want to read some dimestore psychology, feel free to skip the post at any time :D

I think Sarge is right on point, but it might help to understand WHY guys act the way we do, too.

I think most guys are fundamentally insecure. That's not to say that women aren't - believe me, I know they are - but women are usually (in my experience) insecure about one or two things, while guys are insecure in GENERAL.

Why are we like that? Years and years of socialization. On top of that, for those of us from younger generations (and here comes flak from the women's side), it's partly a defense mechanism against being told we're dumb, sexist, and inferior. I'm not saying that individual people or even groups do this to us; It's a long process that starts in elementary school and doesn't end 'till we die. It's present in almost every aspect of our lives. It's unavoidable.

In most cases, the end product of this insecurity is the macho swagger, the bravado, the hazing, etc. that everyone has been talking about here. It permeates almost every male-oriented group. For us, it's just how things are. If you're going to hang out with a bunch of guys (or even A guy, depending), you have to expect to give and be given s@#t.

Why does this get extended to women? Two reasons.

First, it's going to happen more often when a woman enters any male-dominated arena, like hiking. It doesn't happen (in most cases) because it's a woman - male newcomers go through it too. Look at the hazing-type stuff as kind of a right of passage. A particular guy in a group has already gone through it to "belong", and he feels like any newcomer should have to endure the same way he did.

Second, guys are even more insecure than normal around women. At least I know I am. I subconsciously put women on a kind of pedestal. On top of that, there's the idea of having to impress a woman in order to win her attention - which eventually gets extended, in our minds, to ANY kind of attention. I've met VERY few women in my life that didn't foster this heightened insecurity, and I married one of them :D Anyway, all this adds up to more defensive posturing on the part of guys when a woman is around.

Like the Sarge pointed out, the worst thing a person (male or female) can do in this situation is to make a big deal over it. If it offends you, leave. If you can't or don't want to leave, smile and laugh along with it. If you make a stink over being hurt or offended, it'll be taken as weakness or not belonging. On the other hand, if you're thick-skinned, join right in and give out as much as you get - and I guarantee you'll be respected for it.

One of the most important things I've learned in life is this:
If you allow the things you DON'T like about a people to decide who you spend time with, you're going to end up very, very lonely. There are very few times when you'll like everything about a person. The rest of the time, try to take what GOOD you can from the interaction, and let the rest go. You'll find yourself happier and much more enriched.

To sum up, us guys aren't all jerks. In fact I think most of us are pretty guys. To put it simply, we're just scared of you! :D

As always, just my .02 :D

blackbishop351
09-15-2006, 18:42
Umm...


To sum up, us guys aren't all jerks. In fact I think most of us are pretty nice. To put it simply, we're just scared of you! :D

That's what I MEANT to say....damn, I guess I should give some money so I can edit! :D

Gray Blazer
09-15-2006, 19:29
I have to say, I've read several journals of women who've hiked the AT alone and few have referenced being treated poorly by other male hikers on the trail.

I think that perhaps men treat women poorly when they feel threatened. Thru-hiking the AT is a great challenge for most -- regardless of gender -- so I think it might deflate a man's ego to come across a woman who is keeping pace with him if he is insecure in his own ability to complete his hike. Others may feel the need to show off by taunting or teasing a woman, and others may simply be jerks.

I think if you are a strong, powerful woman, you are going to get taunted and laughed at by men regardless of where you go.

Jeeesh, all the women I've met on the trail kept a better pace than me and were obviously stronger and more powerful than me.

Creek Dancer
09-15-2006, 19:50
;) Well, I guess I was wrong again. Men really are heathens.

Just Jeff
09-15-2006, 21:27
In the military, there are rules about respect between officers and enlisted. One time my wife asked me why one of my troops and I were being "disrespectful" to each other - she said it was mean and she thought there were rules against it. I said, "You misunderstand. I'd worry if they DIDN'T treat me that way." There are lines you don't cross and times when it's not appropriate, but if you're a guy and people stop throwing you crap, you have a problem - they either don't respect you enough to bother, or they don't include you in their group. And that's not just a military thing.

So pretty much what's been said here - many of these comments and actions are often just guys trying to include you in their group. It's what we do, and one of the only ways we know how to do it. We're not trying to be rude...we're trying to treat you like everyone else! And if you're offended, then that's not the group you want to be with anyway (male or female).

But then some guys are just jerks, and sexism really exists. Call it when you see it, or just ignore the guy. That hurts us more than insults, anyway.

JMHO.

the goat
09-15-2006, 23:35
Lately I've started thinking about this a lot. I'm not worried for my safety on my thru next year - I'm aware that hikers are a generally harmless lot. What I'm worried about is that male hikers will make my hike unpleasant with their attitudes. So, have any female long distance hikers here (and especially thru hikers) found that male hikers have made a negative impact on their experience?

Of course not all men behave this way, but what I've found both here (a little bit) and out on day hikes (a lot) so far is that an awful lot of them seem to have a very low opinion of women, and make lots of rude jokes and comments to show it. What is it about outdoorsy males that makes (some of) them so hateful towards women? I'd really love the answer to that question.

victoria- i've witnessed many a hiker dynamic in many situations on the trail.....trust me, if i were you, i'd more worried a/b guys being too nice to you, b/c women are in the minority & they miss female interaction.

the goat
09-15-2006, 23:36
btw, how funny is it that there are more dudes posting in this thread than dudettes?:-?

Smile
09-15-2006, 23:39
Good observation Goat!

I've experienced some of the best people on trail, male & female, there's really a comraderie that is exists like nowhere else. Focus on having a great hike, smile, and the positive vibes will extend to all around you!

Toolshed
09-15-2006, 23:39
I'm sorry, VictoriaM but I was under the impression from your previous posts that you had really just started hiking (I might be confused with someone else, but I thought you were recently looking for folks to hike with you in NJ as you were just starting off - Had I had some time then , I would have offered to go on some dayhikes as I work in Central NJ and love to get out for short jaunts....)
Anyway, not that you aren't entitled to your opinions, but to make a comment that

....so far is that an awful lot of them seem to have a very low opinion of women, and make lots of rude jokes and comments to show it. What is it about outdoorsy males that makes (some of) them so hateful towards women? I'd really love the answer to that question. makes it seem that they (men) are almost hiding behind the trees waiting for you to pass by so they may proffer a low opinion. Now, I realize that this is a Woman's forum and I might not be completely welcome, but I too tossed this out to my wife and her comment? "If you truly believe in something, you are apt to find it no matter where you look - perception becomes reality."
My own thoughts are that hikers, regardless of sex, are some of the most respectful and freindly folks I have ever known - Even in NJ :D .

SGT Rock
09-16-2006, 02:25
btw, how funny is it that there are more dudes posting in this thread than dudettes?:-?

It is a good point. One reason I was slow to want to chime in while on the other hand I was itching to say something because I have seen this before.

On the advice of my wife I am getting quick on the draw to ban people from this section when they post like jerks. One guy that posted to one of these threads - well his actions got me a strong e-mail from a concerned husband that wanted guys like that off the site all together.

Anyway, ll I think it is the nature of the question that drug some of us Knuckle Draggers in. We think we know what she is talking about and want to make sure what is really just average male bonding activity to other males is not perceived as sexism by women. Sexism is someone that hates women or thinks women are inferior. Male interaction can be rude to those that don't understand it but it doesn't mean those guys hate women or feel superior to women - they are just being guys.

It is why I often hear males say "She said she wanted to be treated like everyone else, but she didn't like it when we did. She really wants to be treated special". This highlights the other end of the problem: Men not understanding women. There ought to be a thread in a theoretical Male forum that would be titled: "Women, why do we piss them off so bad?" but since we have our male knuckle dragging culture, it would probably turn into a bunch of jokes about blonds and b**bs and not lead to anyone actually changing how they act. Probably the best way to really discuss this topic was for a woman to say it on this forum. For that VictoriaM gets a big Kudo for starting this thread that probably needs to be discussed in the WhiteBlaze age of rancor. Hopefully some of the guys are paying attention.

Again, thanks VictoriaM. I hope you didn't mind us interjecting.

gumball
09-16-2006, 07:19
I've never encountered any sort of sexism on the trail. Everyone seems to treat everyone with respect, regardless of sex. Now in the workaday world, I experience...but who pays attention to that? Men experience it from us, too, to some degree. I think, unless someone is actually aggressive with their ideals, its really all in how you react to it. I don't think you have anything to worry about on the trail.

Tin Man
09-16-2006, 07:26
Guys will be guys and say inappropriate things, but I for one (and I am sure this applies to many of us here) would love to show our respect and hold the door open for the ladies if we could just find a non-privy door on the trail. :-?

STEVEM
09-16-2006, 09:03
I wonder what minnesotasmith would have to say on this topic?

If Minnesota Smith were near a computer I am sure he would be glad to respond. Equally, I feel his response would likely be somewhat awkward and inappropriate. Perhaps the signals from his mind and heart get a little scrambled on the way to the keyboard.

MS is not the "Mulah Omar" of the AT. He's simply another middle aged person out there looking for some answers. Indeed, he is "hiking his own hike".

From: Gren Anderson Shelter register 7/29/06: [quote=Minnesota Smith]

"When someone and I (on the trail) mutually introduce and they act startled & exclaim, “Oh, I’ve heard ALL about you!” I sigh and ask resignedly, “Okay, what were you told about me?” I have gotten a variety of answers then, usually exaggerations. Apparently, the price of notoriety is strangers thinking they know all about you. "

spandau
09-16-2006, 10:33
I hope I'm not walking into a hornets' nest here. Not my intention.

Rock, I respect the hell out of you on all sorts of levels, but I have to disagree with your POV on this one. In my experience, men and women aren't really all that different in their basic motivations and behavior, and also, IME, they waste far too much time looking for differences instead of commonalities.

I may be the outlying data point here, because I prefer the company of men, and most of my close friends are men, but I have to say that my friends (and husband) don't act anything like the 'knuckledragger' type. I'm a competitive fencer who often fences (and sometimes wins) tournaments with men, and I don't find the 'knuckledragger' attitude common, even in a one-on-one, heavily-male sport like fencing. When it has occurred, my (male) coach has used it as a teaching tool. He calls it an example of a water-drip distraction: a pointless distraction that pulls a person away from his or her goal of becoming (in this instance) a skilled fencer.

Now, I appreciate a good fart joke as much as anyone, :) but when I'm not fencing or hiking, I tend to be a bookworm/brainiac/nerdy type, so maybe that has colored my selection of friends. I don't know. Personally, I don't tend to take much to girly-girls or overly-manly men, because, for me, I am more interested in what a person thinks and does than anything else, and those attitudes seem like window dressing to me. I tend to become annoyed at people of either gender who go out of their way to remind me of my own gender, and expect me to act a certain way because of it. I find being overly concerned with gender, especially as a predictor of behavior, to be a useless trip down a dead-end street. I tend to see people as individuals, but I'm weird that way.:)

All I want, on the trail and the fencing strip, is to be a hiker or a fencer, not a >fill in the gender< hiker or fencer. That's also how I see others, until they insist on making an issue out of it.

In response to the original poster: I have yet to encounter any annoying behavior from other hikers that I could chalk up to anything but the person's own personality. I did have a guy in a writing group I belong to go through the whole 'little girl alone in the woods' routine when he found out about my AT plans, proclaiming that I would be barbecued and eaten by Deliverance-type rednecks :rolleyes:, but he dried up when I told him that those were his fears, not mine.

Spandau

SillyGirl
09-16-2006, 11:02
Gender is socially constructed.

lindy
09-16-2006, 13:00
btw, how funny is it that there are more dudes posting in this thread than dudettes?:-?

I can't speak for all, but I know that it is because I am taking notes :)

SGT Rock
09-16-2006, 13:41
I hope I'm not walking into a hornets' nest here. Not my intention.

Rock, I respect the hell out of you on all sorts of levels, but I have to disagree with your POV on this one.

I don't think you are LOL.

I was more worried how it would be taken for me as a man to say what I said. Naw, I respect women like you, especially when you have the fire you seem to have. Sounds like you are probably smarter than me too :D


I may be the outlying data point here, because I prefer the company of men, and most of my close friends are men, but I have to say that my friends (and husband) don't act anything like the 'knuckle dragger' type. I'm a competitive fencer who often fences (and sometimes wins) tournaments with men, and I don't find the 'knuckledragger' attitude common, even in a one-on-one, heavily-male sport like fencing. When it has occurred, my (male) coach has used it as a teaching tool. He calls it an example of a water-drip distraction: a pointless distraction that pulls a person away from his or her goal of becoming (in this instance) a skilled fencer.

I'm going to go on a short limb and say I really think you are on an outlaying data point. I base what I say in being a man and being around men for a LONG time. And I don't know fencing, but I do know Tankers, Scouts, Infantrymen, Artillerymen, and a few others, what I say basically cuts through about 75%-99% of the guys I know. And I really don't consider us knuckle draggers, it was more of an attempt to lighten what I was saying by using a male stereotype. I'm probably more redneck good ol' boy than Neanderthal.

In my experience in one unit, I had four females that worked with me. Two of them sound about like you. They understood how the men acted and got past the initial bonding crap and then it was rarely an issue. They then proceeded to be some of the finest NCOs I have ever had the honor to work with. They both surpassed most of the guys, if not all of them. One was basically my right hand "Woman" and the other was destined for greatness but ended up getting out of the Army because of problems with child care, an ex-husband who was a jerk, and the Army life. It was a true loss for the Army because she was **** hot as we say. Honestly most of my men admired these two women.

The other two women never got how men were, They complained about wanting to be treated the same, but when men did exactly that, they thought they were being singled out for harassment. Of course I had to put the guys on their best behavior and sort it out. They worked around the guys and things were "normal" but they were never fully accepted by the men. They were not bad NCOs, but they didn't get how men thought and it created friction because they felt like they were not fully considered equals. And in a way, they really were not. They were totally equals in all the things that were tangible like pay, promotion, assignment, duty, etc. But they were not considered equals by the men because they never meshed into the majority of the group.

I think you would probably have fallen into the first group and never realized anything was different. Just a hunch.

Vi+
09-16-2006, 15:31
VictoriaM,

I”m a guy. I have worked in heavily male dominated businesses. The only women I ever saw in the military were nurses working in hospitals. I retired from law enforcement which, when I was first employed, was an all-male agency.

Among all jobs I’ve had, a woman was one of my worst bosses. Three women were among my best bosses; one of whom was the best boss I’ve ever had.

I have been married twice, the first for 15 years, the second for 26 years. I’m quite ignorant as regards women in general. The past several years I’ve been active in step aerobics and have, as a result, had much more interaction with women than previously.

Here’s what I’ve learned. Men don’t understand women. Women don’t understand men.

Women working in law enforcement, who dealt the best with men whether as colleagues, witnesses, victims, or criminals - a high male population - had older brothers. Almost as successful were women with younger brothers. Some women didn’t need much exposure to men at all to learn how to deal with men quite successfully.

As suggested elsewhere in this thread, I think you’ve chosen “Sexism on the Trail” inappropriately. Would sexism include a male hiker standing aside and inviting a female hiker to precede him entering a restaurant? “Sexism,” standing alone, is so poorly defined as to be useless.

You worry, “... that male hikers will make (your) hike unpleasant with their attitudes.”

Guys tend to be fairly direct. If a guy says something which seems designed to irritate you as a female, he's probably waiting to enjoy your reaction. If you give him the desired reaction, the game is on.

When you’re hiking a considerable distance you establish relationships along the way. You’ll, quite naturally, avoid the pigs you come to recognize, as will most other non-pigs, and you’ll come to appreciate others. They will learn to appreciate you, too.

As always, and everywhere, pigs are pigs, be they men or women. You may meet a few hiking, but I suspect less there than in most other settings.

icemanat95
09-16-2006, 18:49
Men and women, as Rock said, really do not understand one another at all, despite our best intentions. We are, essentially different species of creatures who are able to mate pretty much solely to ensure the propogation of the species by the grace of God...there is no other explanation for it.

Thus men and women constantly misinterpret one anothers language, both the overt and the subliminal and are constantly confused and frustrated by one another. Some men and women get enough of a handle on one another that they learn how to manipulate each other effectively....these sorts are usually socially successful, having no problems dating, but end up needing that skill more often because they cannot seem to hold a relationship together to save their lives. The rest of us are bumblers, bouncing around in an emotional pinball machine, blundering into and bouncing off of one hot button or the other, and often totally confused about what the heck is going on. The only way to survive in this environment is to be polite....Oops, sorry I screwed that up...Oh, my, I didn't mean to misunderstand that so badly...Please excuse me, I'm an idiot.... and so on.

Unfortunately many bumblers seem to be proud of their ignorance and inability to relate to those other humans....they don't try and they make no effort to be polite about their blunders. Some of these fall into a further sub-group that actively prusues their blunders with a certain malevolence....fortunately these folks are in it for the easy score, and generally can't be bothered doing something hard like hiking. But one or two will show up.

But seriously, putting aside the recent article in a CT free paper about "pink blazing" most of the men you will meet on the trail aren't going to be a problem of any sort. Most will treat you like a sister and will look after you as much as you allow. Yes the inability to communicate between the species/sexes, will cause misunderstandings, and guys are notoriously thick about some things...but mostly they are harmless.

Hammock Hanger
09-16-2006, 20:05
Let me put in my 2 cents worth.

I really did not experience too much sexism out on the trail. I found that the guys were more likely to discuss weight and miles then the girls. When these conversations came up I always walked away.

After a few months on the trail that seems to stop. I had a few guys that thought they could show me a thing or two about hanging a hammock and even though I have been hanging one for over 10 years. Sometimes I was willing to see if they had something new to share otherwise I just said I was happy with the way I did things and left it at that.

If a subject comes up from a male or a female that you don't want to get into just walk away, go get water, take a walk or just tell them your not interested.

On the whole I can only say I left the trail feeling like I had just inherited a whole lot of new big brothers.

So I can say as one who has hiked from Springer to Katahdin I had no negative impact.

VictoriaM
09-16-2006, 21:27
I appreciate the input from everyone who has responded, men and women both.

To answer one question, I haven't been hiking long. For the past month or so I've been trying to get out at least four times a week (and am up to about 6.5 miles each time, go me!) but that's all I have for hiking experience. The fact that I've already had several male-related issues on the trail in that time is what makes me wonder about this.

Now, I'm a girly-girl. I'm small, delicate, and feminine. I don't expect men to treat me like one of the guys (I'll never be one of the guys, and wouldn't want to be, it's just not me) but I do expect to be treated respectfully. The comments I've heard so far ranged from implying that I'm stupid because I'm female, to blatantly sexual and a bit threatening. I have many male friends and am usually treated very well by men, so it came as a surprise to me to hear these kinds of comments. The ratio of jerkish outdoorsy males seems, in my experience so far, to be way out of proportion to the rest of the world. I hope that I've just run into some bad apples. There are certainly a number of men here who seem like gentlemen (in public at least, which is all I ask ;) ).

I was hoping, and even expecting, to here that most male hikers aren't jerks. I guess I just wanted to hear it from some other woman. I'm feeling a bit burned at the moment, and even nervous to go back out hiking by myself in case I run into the same pack of dogs. :(

Hammock Hanger
09-16-2006, 21:43
I appreciate the input from everyone who has responded, men and women both.

To answer one question, I haven't been hiking long. For the past month or so I've been trying to get out at least four times a week (and am up to about 6.5 miles each time, go me!) but that's all I have for hiking experience. The fact that I've already had several male-related issues on the trail in that time is what makes me wonder about this.

Now, I'm a girly-girl. I'm small, delicate, and feminine. I don't expect men to treat me like one of the guys (I'll never be one of the guys, and wouldn't want to be, it's just not me) but I do expect to be treated respectfully. The comments I've heard so far ranged from implying that I'm stupid because I'm female, to blatantly sexual and a bit threatening. I have many male friends and am usually treated very well by men, so it came as a surprise to me to hear these kinds of comments. The ratio of jerkish outdoorsy males seems, in my experience so far, to be way out of proportion to the rest of the world. I hope that I've just run into some bad apples. There are certainly a number of men here who seem like gentlemen (in public at least, which is all I ask ;) ).

I was hoping, and even expecting, to here that most male hikers aren't jerks. I guess I just wanted to hear it from some other woman. I'm feeling a bit burned at the moment, and even nervous to go back out hiking by myself in case I run into the same pack of dogs. :(

Sorry to hear that you have had those bad experiences. Keep hiking and hope for the best. DON'T give up hiking because on one bad pack of jerks. Sue/Hammock Hanger

Tin Man
09-16-2006, 22:00
The ratio of jerkish outdoorsy males seems, in my experience so far, to be way out of proportion to the rest of the world.

This is disturbing. I cannot say I have witnessed this myself in my short section hikes in New England. I have only run into nice people who are friendly and respectful. In my 300 miles of experience on the AT, I have found that people are actually friendlier and nicer than in the rest of the world.


I was hoping, and even expecting, to here that most male hikers aren't jerks. I guess I just wanted to hear it from some other woman. I'm feeling a bit burned at the moment, and even nervous to go back out hiking by myself in case I run into the same pack of dogs. :(

I am not a woman and cannot fully appreciate the cruelty, but please don't let the jerks win. Perhaps a simple comeback is required to put those jerks in their place, something along the lines of "Whoa! I know you think you are being funny, but I don't appreciate it. Do you want some strange man to talk to your mother, sister or cousin that way? No, well I didn't think so, so please be considerate of me and others and just stop. Have a nice day."

Just Jeff
09-16-2006, 23:26
The type of guy you'll meet on a 6 mile day hike is likely not the type of guy you'll be thru-hiking with. Different mindset, different subset of the population, way different goals for the trip.

Tinker
09-16-2006, 23:41
"Bars are a lot better place to pick up women than strip joints".

I was bold (and pissed) enough to ask "Where do you put them down when you're done with them?"

I got a diverted, embarassed, apologetical look from a young guy sitting beside a woman who he probably considered "his". No comment, just the look.

Neanderthal man had been caught with his testosterone showing.

There are a lot of men out there like this (or who pretend to be like this).

To some men, being a callous baboon is a good thing. Not to me or any of my friends.

SGT Rock
09-17-2006, 02:30
VictoriaM, I'm sory you have had some bad experiences. I think once you get out on the trail on a multi day trip you will find that fellow hikers will actually renew your trust in people. The vast majority of backpackers are the kind of folks that go out of their way to respect each other and would be the sort that would go out of their way to be helpful.

Some of what you have seen here is the Internet - not the trail. The Internet removes a lot of courtesy from people and the way they interact because it gives them anonymity, it gives them lots of space and the probability you will never really meet, and it takes away the face to face non-verbal communication that makes for a good exchange. Unfortunately it also gives some people the ability to troll. People, like 18 year old kids, the ability to build a false persona of expertise of a veteran trail hiker. They are poser wannabes and usually only make comments to see what sort of raise they can get. They say stupid stuff like "keep your legs closed" on a thread about a real safety concern for women. Those people usually give themselves away sooner or later. Stick around WhiteBlaze and you will see.

As for me, I hope you don't let the shock get you and you move past it and stay a part of the trail community. Maybe I will see you on the trail someday.

Lone Wolf
09-17-2006, 14:02
Lately I've started thinking about this a lot. I'm not worried for my safety on my thru next year - I'm aware that hikers are a generally harmless lot. What I'm worried about is that male hikers will make my hike unpleasant with their attitudes. So, have any female long distance hikers here (and especially thru hikers) found that male hikers have made a negative impact on their experience?

Of course not all men behave this way, but what I've found both here (a little bit) and out on day hikes (a lot) so far is that an awful lot of them seem to have a very low opinion of women, and make lots of rude jokes and comments to show it. What is it about outdoorsy males that makes (some of) them so hateful towards women? I'd really love the answer to that question.
I see you're from Jersey. You must do all of your hiking in NJ/NY? I've heard all folks from that area are Aholes.

SGT Rock
09-17-2006, 14:10
Hey, isn't STEVEM from Jersey? SteveM and VictoriaM. Y'all related?

Swass
09-17-2006, 15:57
VictoriaM, I've read the replies and they're nice to hear, but I have had experiences similar to those that you describe (macho men in the wilderness). And as a girl who works in an outdoor setting professionally, here's my take...

WIth the exception of the outright a-holes, I think it's chivalry gone awry. For many men, it isn't about a malicious sexism, but a less blatant sexism. It's hard for them to look at you as an equal because there's no way a girl won't need their help or protection, right? An example is when a guy tried to help me paddle a canoe. I didn't have the heart to tell him that I'm a guide (and I know my stroke is flawless, buddy). Sometimes it comes off as rudeness, sometimes as niceness.

Their intentions might be different - belittling, or just trying to start a friendly conversation - but either way, with me it's unappreciated because it feels like they assume that I need their attention. I think it makes them feel more useful? (and I'm not making a blanket statement, just my encounters - the men I work with are not threatened by women at all)

Of course, I live in the Macho Man capital of the world... It gets old. ;)

WILLIAM HAYES
09-17-2006, 16:03
I have been section hiking the trail for the last four years and have never seen bad behavior in mixed company. I don't thinkthis is something you need to worry about. Good luck and maybe I will see you down the trail next year.
Hillbilly

Toolshed
09-17-2006, 16:08
.... An example is when a guy tried to help me paddle a canoe. I didn't have the heart to tell him that I'm a guide (and I know my stroke is flawless, buddy). Sometimes it comes off as rudeness, sometimes as niceness....
LMAO. I worked (and volunteered) for a commercial outfitter for a number of years and we used to take people out caneoing and always tried to put th ehusband in the front of the boat and the wife in the rear.
Husband in rear/Wife in front leads to much screaming yelling and arguing.
Husband in front/wife in rear leads to woman relaxing and husband doing the work.

And since most couples have never really paddled, husband might ask why they aren't in the rear- We use an excuse like, their strength works better to pull the boat, or we need their superior skills to better steer the boat, or if it is windy, more wiehgt in the front allows the boat to cut the wind better.
(then we can all have peace and quiet during those dinner paddles)

Tin Man
09-17-2006, 22:10
I see you're from Jersey. You must do all of your hiking in NJ/NY? I've heard all folks from that area are Aholes.

Only in the presence of Aholes from VA. :D

generoll
09-17-2006, 23:17
suprised no one brought up Briannes article.

SGT Rock
09-17-2006, 23:18
Trying to let that powder keg die generoll.

VictoriaM
09-18-2006, 00:06
I've seen that article and agree with a general consensus and Miss Brianne. I'm a totally different animal. I act like a lady and expect to be treated like one (that's not to say I ask for special treatment - not at all!).

I'm not related to SteveM, but will possibly be going out hiking with him at some point.

SGT Rock, you make a good point about anonymity and the internet. I have no way of knowing if the few comments I've noticed here came from established members or not. Regardless of that, do you think that the harsher personalities that show their faces here in the ether are maybe the personalities of the people behind them? The internet is like alcohol, it makes normally reasonable people lose their inhibitions and do or say things they normally wouldn't, but maybe the way they normally behave is the act, and the rudeness is real. But I guess that's a topic for another thread.

Thanks for all the encouragement to stay and keep hiking. Don't worry, there isn't much that could keep me off the trail.

generoll
09-18-2006, 01:32
yeah, it's probably a wise choice, but it is somewhat germane. i'm not sure how to bring it up again (the thread), but even if you don't agree with her conclusions, it's possible that someone might learn a thing or two from her approach and her actions. perhaps a quiet pm with a link?

FWIW I sent it to my 23 y/o daughter after I'd given her my take on it and got her view. First of all I probably should have sent it to her without comment. but in the interest of full disclosure I just want to tell you that I did add my own commentary before she read it. As a self proclaimed feminist and rather confused liberal here was her take:

Brianne was rather full of herself.
It's not that hard to get away from a guy if you want to.

She really didn't want to dicuss it much and I didn't press her, but that's what she shared.

SGT Rock
09-18-2006, 02:15
I understand your concern generoll. I was raised in a family with many strong women, all of them smart, feminists, and a couple of them backpackers. One of them is still a very regular backpacking partner of mine - an Aunt who is only 10 years older than me. If a woman I knew was going to start a thru-hike I would probably want her to see that article too just so she knows what is out there.

But on the other hand. I have two sons, and I hope I am helping to raise them right. If either of them were going to do a thru-hike I would also want them to see that article so they would know what to not do. I think men and women can learn from that article as well.

That is why we closed the thread but left the thread where it is still viewable - it has some merit. I think the comment on it is best left off - everything was said that could be said, the only place left it had to go was exposing what some saw as the "truth" which was already agreed by most to be subjective. I think the best way to view it is for each person to look at it with maybe a little comment and then decide if that will apply to them. In my case it wouldn't because I am happily married and consider myself a southern gentlemen. But to an 18 year old boy it may be taken as a warning how not to act, and to a single woman solo on the trail it can be a warning what to avoid.

And with that I hope we can avoid letting this thread turn into the new thread about that article. This thread seems to be making some headway and has not sunk to skunk and I hope it can stay that way. All others posting after this please take this as the Administration's view about this topic.

Smile
09-18-2006, 04:00
IMHO don't stress about this, get your boots on the trail, be yourself and you will see how things truly are. All of this is speculation, and better to go into the hike with a clear mind, and a great attitude without any expectations or emotional baggage of how one may or may not be treated.

Your experience will be unique to you. Other hikers you meet, when you meet them, the conversations and interactions will be unique to that moment.

Enjoy the hike! :)

STEVEM
09-18-2006, 05:29
I see you're from Jersey. You must do all of your hiking in NJ/NY? I've heard all folks from that area are Aholes.

Mostly the ones who got here on the AT. Interestingly, most come from the south.

spandau
09-18-2006, 06:39
Victoria, I'm glad to hear that you won't let a few jerks get you down, or keep you from getting out there and doing what you want to do. :)

I did not think about how physical appearance might play into this. I'm relatively tall for a woman, and I have a powerful build, so it is possible that I've dodged some of the jerky behavior on that basis. It's an interesting question; I have a very small female friend who gets annoyed when both men and women tend to treat her like a child because of her physical size. I wonder if she's more prone to collecting jerks?

Rock, I'm very flattered by your compliments - thank you for comparing me to women you so obviously respect and admire. FWIW, I have a younger brother, and was raised mostly by my father, so maybe that explains my preference for men as companions. (Not that I snub women at all; that's just how it seems to work out.)

I tend to ascribe jerky behavior to poor manners and/or upbringing. I was amused at the stupidity of the comment from the guy in the bar about 'picking up women'; why would he think that rudeness of that kind would be attractive? Great response from the poster, BTW. :)

And finally, some, but not all, of this behavior may be due to differences in background. I could see how a man might think he was being chivalrous or polite toward a woman, and not understand why she might find his behavior patronizing or condescending. In many ways, I don't have a very American cultural background, so I might need some explanation of the 'southern gentleman' thing.:)

It seems to me that the serious jerks tend to be aggressive about their behavior, and intend to frighten or intimidate their targets. IMO, much of this behavior seems to be rooted in a deep fear or insecurity about being shown up by a female, which, of course, is only an issue if one thinks that females are somehow inferior to males, and that being bested by a female is somehow humiliating to a male. (I don't get that, either.)

Spandau

STEVEM
09-18-2006, 08:20
I see you're from Jersey. You must do all of your hiking in NJ/NY? I've heard all folks from that area are Aholes.

Victoria: You can ignore him, he's just an old geezer and can't help himself.
Besides, lets face it, he's not that wrong. See who gets the last laugh when all those rednecks find out that we put toll booths on the AT.

SGT Rock
09-18-2006, 08:23
Well I hope I don't sound too patronizing then :D

But I was raised that a gentlemen from the south has manners, and uses them. You respect people when you meet them and don't expect them to earn it first - but they can also lose your respect (later). When it comes to women: a southern gentlemen believes that you still hold a door open for a woman, you only talk respectfully about your mother, you only talk respectfully about your wife and any other female relatives, you take your hat off when sitting at the supper table, women are always referred to as mam unless they ask you too otherwise, when getting in line, women go first, you should speak up when you feel someone is being rude to a woman, and you do not immediately assume you can hug a woman as a greeting unless you know her well. I am sure that is not all of the things that go with it, but just some off the top of my head.

Now I know not all women want this done for them, and I try not to offend any that feel that way, but this is typically my default mode when meeting women.

spandau
09-18-2006, 10:51
Rock, thanks for the explanation. There's nothing odd or patronizing about that at all; in fact, I do most of those things myself. :D It's just common courtesy to, for example, offer to open a door for any person with his or her hands full.

To get back to the original topic, I think the point at which I would become angry is when someone was deliberately trying to scare or intimidate me. Anything else is more of a ' :rolleyes: whatever'. The guy in my writing group who tried to inform me that I would be subjecting myself to Great! Personal! Danger! by going on the AT by myself was of that sort: good for a private chuckle later. (BTW, you could really hear the caps and exclamations in his speech.):)

bfitz
09-18-2006, 13:00
Gender is socially constructed.
Eaxctly. I don't think safety is the issue. The issue is a lot of us are dorks.

Brrrb Oregon
09-18-2006, 13:51
Now, I'm a girly-girl. I'm small, delicate, and feminine. I don't expect men to treat me like one of the guys (I'll never be one of the guys, and wouldn't want to be, it's just not me) but I do expect to be treated respectfully. The comments I've heard so far ranged from implying that I'm stupid because I'm female, to blatantly sexual and a bit threatening. I have many male friends and am usually treated very well by men, so it came as a surprise to me to hear these kinds of comments. The ratio of jerkish outdoorsy males seems, in my experience so far, to be way out of proportion to the rest of the world. I hope that I've just run into some bad apples. There are certainly a number of men here who seem like gentlemen (in public at least, which is all I ask ;) ).

I was hoping, and even expecting, to here that most male hikers aren't jerks. I guess I just wanted to hear it from some other woman. I'm feeling a bit burned at the moment, and even nervous to go back out hiking by myself in case I run into the same pack of dogs. :(

Given the same pack of guys, some women do have much more trouble with this than others. These guys haven't progressed far from the 5th or 6th grade playground, which is where all this silly nonsense is learned, let's face it. Perceived atmosphere also makes a difference, which is one reason that my Catholic high school had a strict dress code. Put some guys in dirt and let them quit shaving, and their manners go all to h***. The same goes for putting guys in a "prove yourself" situation. Some of them just go all "fantasy caveman", and not in a nice sense.

Unfortunately, being a "girly girl" makes you a bit more of a target--particularly if it is reflected in your choice of dress and not just your build--because they learned at the age of 10 or 12 that the "tom-boys"--who are also not and never will be "one of the guys"--were more likely to return an insult with a cut down to their shoelaces.....not something a guy repeats when he's trying to show himself off. Being ready to be offended, OTOH, rather than ready to blow them off, will sometimes put a bull's eye on your back. Ironically, being someone who is really cute that they want to impress can also attract this stupidity. And hey, for some of them, this behavior still works. Ever heard of the nice guys never getting the girls? Some of these idiots are like Yellowstone bears who the tourists have essentially taught how to get those pic-i-nic baskets.

I wish one could fend off bullies and non-specific irritants by saying, "hey, that bothers me, quit it." Some people will cut it out if you don't like their sense of humor, but for people who do it to give their weak egos a sense of superiority or because they have never learned how one appropriately expresses an interest in someone of the opposite sex, it actually encourages more of the same. They want your attention, and voila! they got it! They wanted to show that you are in their control and care about their opinion of you but not vice versa, and voila! you oblige.

Of course, by all rights you should not have this to deal with. This is about them, and not about you. Nevetheless, you can't teach a pig to sing. You just frustrate yourself and annoy the pig. My advice is to approach this pretty much as if you were being harrassed by an obnoxious 6th grade boy. You won't succeed in teaching manners where his mom failed. Keep in mind what encourages them and what is going to convince them to either drop it or take it elsewhere, and proceed accordingly. After all, it is their worthiness of respect, not yours, that has taken the drop. They will sometimes ramp it up a little at first, but repeated failures will usually have their intended effect.

Sometimes, they even remember what their mamas taught them, and turn out to be rather nice. It does happen.

Brrrb Oregon
09-18-2006, 13:51
Now, I'm a girly-girl. I'm small, delicate, and feminine. I don't expect men to treat me like one of the guys (I'll never be one of the guys, and wouldn't want to be, it's just not me) but I do expect to be treated respectfully. The comments I've heard so far ranged from implying that I'm stupid because I'm female, to blatantly sexual and a bit threatening. I have many male friends and am usually treated very well by men, so it came as a surprise to me to hear these kinds of comments. The ratio of jerkish outdoorsy males seems, in my experience so far, to be way out of proportion to the rest of the world. I hope that I've just run into some bad apples. There are certainly a number of men here who seem like gentlemen (in public at least, which is all I ask ;) ).

I was hoping, and even expecting, to here that most male hikers aren't jerks. I guess I just wanted to hear it from some other woman. I'm feeling a bit burned at the moment, and even nervous to go back out hiking by myself in case I run into the same pack of dogs. :(

Given the same pack of guys, some women do have much more trouble with this than others. These guys haven't progressed far from the 5th or 6th grade playground, which is where all this silly nonsense is learned, let's face it. Perceived atmosphere also makes a difference, which is one reason that my Catholic high school had a strict dress code. Put some guys in dirt and let them quit shaving, and their manners go all to h***. The same goes for putting guys in a "prove yourself" situation. Some of them just go all "fantasy caveman", and not in a nice sense.

Unfortunately, being a "girly girl" makes you a bit more of a target--particularly if it is reflected in your choice of dress and not just your build--because they learned at the age of 10 or 12 that the "tom-boys"--who are also not and never will be "one of the guys"--were more likely to return an insult with a cut down to their shoelaces.....not something a guy repeats when he's trying to show himself off. Being ready to be offended, OTOH, rather than ready to blow them off, will sometimes put a bull's eye on your back. Ironically, being someone who is really cute that they want to impress can also attract this stupidity. And hey, for some of them, this behavior still works. Ever heard of the nice guys never getting the girls? Some of these idiots are like Yellowstone bears who the tourists have essentially taught how to get those pic-i-nic baskets.

I wish one could fend off bullies and non-specific irritants by saying, "hey, that bothers me, quit it." Some people will cut it out if you don't like their sense of humor, but for people who do it to give their weak egos a sense of superiority or because they have never learned how one appropriately expresses an interest in someone of the opposite sex, it actually encourages more of the same. They want your attention, and voila! they got it! They wanted to show that you are in their control and care about their opinion of you but not vice versa, and voila! you oblige.

Of course, by all rights you should not have this to deal with. This is about them, and not about you. Nevetheless, you can't teach a pig to sing. You just frustrate yourself and annoy the pig. My advice is to approach this pretty much as if you were being harrassed by an obnoxious 6th grade boy. You won't succeed in teaching manners where his mom failed. Keep in mind what encourages them and what is going to convince them to either drop it or take it elsewhere, and proceed accordingly. After all, it is their worthiness of respect, not yours, that has taken the drop. They will sometimes ramp it up a little at first, but repeated failures will usually have their intended effect.

Sometimes, they even remember what their mamas taught them, and turn out to be rather nice. It does happen.

minnesotasmith
12-02-2006, 10:06
The comments posted on it so far are purely concerned with "sexism"* exhibited by men on the Trail towards women on the Trail. That is only half of the subject matter the thread title implies this thread would cover. In four pages so far, this thread basically has skipped sexism by women hikers towards men hikers. Perhaps just one or two people reading this would have something to say on that half of this topic (other than pretending it is nonexistent, so that they can ignore it)?

I will note here that in my personal experience in 9 months on the AT this year, that friction between males and females on the Trail with any basis in differing sexes was rare. When there was friction (that I observed) between male and female hikers, it was usually completely unrelated to sex; i.e., it was "your unleashed dog is being a PITA", "I hate it when people smoke in the shelter/ask me not to smoke in the shelter", large groups (of whatever composition) inconsiderately taking over shelters, littering, etc., etc. In fact, LD hikers in general appear IMO to get along rather better than do most people in general, showing much more esprit de corps than one might expect strangers (outside the military) to immediately show each other. This is one of the key attractions to hiking the AT in my, and many other, LD AT hikers' judgements.

*FYI, this is a term frequently used by PC-types (it's code for "I don't like them") as slander no defense is allowed against by people those PC-ers are bigoted against. It's used similiarly to how they use the word "racist".

dixicritter
12-02-2006, 11:08
Minnesotasmith, maybe part of the reason for the slant towards the female point of view is the fact that this is the "female hikers forum".

map
12-02-2006, 13:07
My 2 cents...I found when I did my hike, the logistics of the thing...the physical difficulties, the emotional ones, ALL the trial and tribulations of a thru hike, put a damper on what I would call the sexual tensions that normally exist between men and women in the everyday. For me it was all reduced to feeling like I was hiking with a bunch of older brothers! I have a lot of non hiking women friends who always ask how I can stand it being out there with all that testosterone and "man behavior." Contrary to what they all believe - I've never felt embarrassed, threatened or otherwise uncomfortable in the presence of my male hiking companions, strangers or not...in fact I think most guys go out of there way to be positive and supportive of the girls out there. I've been lucky I guess! No one has ever been patronizing or condescending or downright rude because of my sex...I found I gained more respect from the guys than anything else. Like a big brother! It's great! Keep up the good work all you he-men hikers out there
:D

Marta
12-02-2006, 14:50
Now, I'm a girly-girl. I'm small, delicate, and feminine. I don't expect men to treat me like one of the guys (I'll never be one of the guys, and wouldn't want to be, it's just not me) but I do expect to be treated respectfully. The comments I've heard so far ranged from implying that I'm stupid because I'm female, to blatantly sexual and a bit threatening.


VictoriaM--Please don't take this the wrong way, but consider all the things that you could possibly be doing to provoke the treatment you find objectionable. Gender, age, and size are not changeable, but think about the way you dress, the gear you carry, and the "aura" you project. Perhaps the fact that you are not a very experienced hiker is what is attracting the comments implying you are "stupid," more than the other factors.

BTW, tomorrow marks the 5-month anniversary of the start of my SOBO thru-hike. (I'm in Damascus, at the Baja, which is why I'm on Whiteblaze today.) From Day 1, very, very few people I encounter mark me as a thru-hiker. Part of it is age (I'm older than most other SOBOs) and gender (most SOBOs are male) and the fact that I have mostly hiked alone (many people are astounded that anyone would hike solo--they expect to see hikers in pairs). But another SOBO, Jim, was also treated as a non-thru, and he was young and male. I was forced to conclude that the fact that I stay clean, keep my clothing clean and new-looking. and wear clothing that looks more like running gear than hiking gear causes people to assume I'm out for a dayhike.

This is what I mean by thinking about what you do to provoke the reaction of others, i.e., if you wear running shoes, people will assume you're a runner, not a hiker.

I'm concerned about your comment that you're a "girly-girl." To me that means you project an image of helplessness, and need someone else (usually a man) to take care of you. This is not helpful if you're asking to be treated with respect and as an equal.

I also wonder exactly what you mean when you say you want to be treated with respect. If you want people to treat you as an experienced hiker/equal, then you'll have to put in a great deal of time outdoors so you can become one. Keep on backpacking, and you'll get there eventually.

My basic POV is that you can only be responsible for your own behavior and attitudes. If some guy gives you an attitude, either laugh it off, or give him a Look ("Don't mess with me, pal") that will shut him up. Either way, it's up to you to control the situation and make yourself comfortable.

VictoriaM
12-02-2006, 23:27
Wow, way to drag up an old thread.


VictoriaM--Please don't take this the wrong way, but consider all the things that you could possibly be doing to provoke the treatment you find objectionable. Gender, age, and size are not changeable, but think about the way you dress, the gear you carry, and the "aura" you project.

Ok, so the fact that I wear a skirt (a black hiking skirt) and my pack is pink means that I was inviting the men I encountered in this instance to demean and threaten me? My "aura" of a very capable day hiker and semi-experienced backpacker was the reason one of them called me a "lesbo bitch" and implied that what I needed was a man who take me in hand so that I'd stay home in the kitchen where women belong? Clearly my pink pack and knee-length skirt were the problem. It couldn't be that these men were sexist @$$holes. But maybe you think that a woman who gets raped is asking for it if she flirts with her rapist first, or wears revealing clothing. Lots of people do think that. They're wrong, of course.


Perhaps the fact that you are not a very experienced hiker is what is attracting the comments implying you are "stupid," more than the other factors.

Or maybe it had nothing to do with that, since I barely spoke to one small group as they executed their drive-by (hike-by?) assault. And as far as being an inexperienced hiker, go to my trail journal and look at my pack pics. Go to Birdlegs' journal (we've been out on two overnights together) and see what she has to say about me. How exactly am I conveying my "inexperience"? Please explain this to me, because I can't imagine just seeing me hike by told these men that I was a new hiker. And even if they had some profound psychic ability to aid them, why would my inexperience be a good reason to threaten me so much that I was a little afraid for my safety? How does inexperince excuse jokes and comments about "f--ing stupid women" not knowing where they belong, and needing a man to control them, because clearly they can't be let out on their own?


I'm concerned about your comment that you're a "girly-girl." To me that means you project an image of helplessness, and need someone else (usually a man) to take care of you. This is not helpful if you're asking to be treated with respect and as an equal.

I definitely do not project any ort of helplessness. I like to be clean, and I keep my nails done (not long or painted, just neat). I wear a lot of pink, including. I'm very gentle, don't talk a lot, and don't curse. I dye my hair fun colors and always wear jewelry, usually pendants that have some meaning for me. My earings don't come out, so I also always have them on. I don't generally enjoy crude jokes or talk, but prefer to remove myself from a group that likes that sort of joking rather than ask them to stop. Please tell me how any of these traits are inviting disrespect and demeaning comments.


I also wonder exactly what you mean when you say you want to be treated with respect. If you want people to treat you as an experienced hiker/equal, then you'll have to put in a great deal of time outdoors so you can become one. Keep on backpacking, and you'll get there eventually.

I mean that I don't want to be cursed at, threatened, or joked about in a demeaning way. I mean that if I'm surrounded by a group of men and the joking gets sexual or threatening, I hope that at least one of the men will back me up when I object to being spoken about that way. I mean that if I'm talking to another hiker, male or female, about hiking subjects, I don't want their speech to "dumb down" as if I'm at a kindergarten level of comprehension. I mean that if I come to a shelter with only three men in it, I would like them to move over a little and make room for me without giving me dirty looks and grumbling. I mean that I would prefer not to be called by nicknames like "little girl," "honey," or "darling." Men wouldn't call other men "honey" or "darling", so why should they call me that. I would also prefer not to be whistled at or have sexual comments called out to my back as I hike away. I don't think any of these things are too much to ask, but please, correct me if I'm wrong.


My basic POV is that you can only be responsible for your own behavior and attitudes. If some guy gives you an attitude, either laugh it off, or give him a Look ("Don't mess with me, pal") that will shut him up. Either way, it's up to you to control the situation and make yourself comfortable.

I will not laugh off the comments made by the hikers I was talking about at the start of the thread. They were not a laughing matter. I wasn't about to get tough with them either, because each of them could have overpowered me without help, and they were clearly threatening. Now, tell me how I could have controlled the situation, besides the obvious answer of getting away as fast as possible , which I did? I'm assuming, by the tone of your post, that you would have considered it my fault if I had gotten hurt.

Frosty
12-03-2006, 11:15
I mean that if I'm surrounded by a group of men and the joking gets sexual or threatening, I hope that at least one of the men will back me up when I object to being spoken about that way. I mean that if I'm talking to another hiker, male or female, about hiking subjects, I don't want their speech to "dumb down" as if I'm at a kindergarten level of comprehension. I mean that if I come to a shelter with only three men in it, I would like them to move over a little and make room for me without giving me dirty looks and grumbling. I mean that I would prefer not to be called by nicknames like "little girl," "honey," or "darling." I see your dilemma. No one wants these things, and no one should have to put up with them.

But people on the trail do not behave as you wish them to, and it isn't sexist just because they are men and you are a women (I can't believe I'm echoing something Minnesota Smith said). Some people do not move over to share shelter space for others without being asked. It has nothing to do with your sex. Just their laziness, or selfishness in trying to get more space for themselves.

Either you want equality or you do not. These people wouldn't move for another man. Expecting them to move for you without being told just because you are a woman puts you in the helpless little girl mode. Being treated equally means getting equally inconsiderate treatment, it does not mean having men do things for you because of your sex.

The same is true about you wanting to have men stick up for you when others talk out of turn. A man wouldn't stick up for another man. Why should he stick up for you? (I know many men would. I would. But it is still being sexist for me to treat a woman differently, even if more nicely, than a man.) Really, if you think about it, expecting a man to stick up for you because you are a woman is sexist in itself. I think that's what Marta meant about your "aura." If you expect special treatment because you are a woman, then expect men to be treat you differentlly than they would other men. That is both good an bad. Good in that you are not treated differently, and bad in that you get no special consideration just because you are a woman. Man or woman, giving someone a dirty look or grumbling under your breath works with lovers and spouses. With strangers, you simply say, "Mind moving over? I need some room here."

If the issue is sexism on the trail, the comments, whistles, etc are out of place and sexist and not acceptable. I don't know what women do (or should do) when men yell out of cars or hoot or whistle as they walk away, in town or on the trail. It is terrible behavior and should be treated as a crime. Assaulting one's dignity should be treated the same as physically assaulting or robbing them.

But rude and inconsiderate behavior is not sexist. It also is unacceptable, but poor manners are illegal and there isn't anything one can do about it (man or woman) accept say that you don't like it, say what you expect, and let go of whether it gets done or not. You just can't control what other people do. I have moved my campsite to avoid obnoxious people (mostly drunks), and I have opted to stay put and endure idiocy because I didn't want to move. Not that I accepted their behavior as right, just that I can't make people behave the way they should, or at least the way I think they should. Fair or not, if I don't like the situation, I have to change where I am or what I do.

All this said, far and away the majority of people I have met on the trail and pleasant and considerate, and I have never seen a woman mistreated. Since it has happened to you already numerous times, perhaps you have exhausted all the ill kharma the world has in store for you and can look forward to clear sailing from here on out. I hope so. Best of luck.

VictoriaM
12-03-2006, 14:40
But people on the trail do not behave as you wish them to, and it isn't sexist just because they are men and you are a women

You're mixing up the two issues, so I'll address them individually below.


Some people do not move over to share shelter space for others without being asked. It has nothing to do with your sex. Just their laziness, or selfishness in trying to get more space for themselves.

I agree, usually. However, in the case I was speaking of, there was a definite "boys only" vibe, and their indignation at my female companion and I showing up was clearly from us being women. No, I have no proof of this, but I trust my instincts and could feel the difference.


Either you want equality or you do not. These people wouldn't move for another man. Expecting them to move for you without being told just because you are a woman puts you in the helpless little girl mode. Being treated equally means getting equally inconsiderate treatment, it does not mean having men do things for you because of your sex...Man or woman, giving someone a dirty look or grumbling under your breath works with lovers and spouses. With strangers, you simply say, "Mind moving over? I need some room here."

You misunderstand. I did ask them, very directly, if they could please move over so that we could use the shelter, too. And they did, but not without grumbling, and giving us looks. If looks could kill, we'd have been dead in horroble ways, so in the end we packed up and left rather than staying and feeling unsafe. The grumbling was all from them, not us.


The same is true about you wanting to have men stick up for you when others talk out of turn. A man wouldn't stick up for another man. Why should he stick up for you? (I know many men would. I would. But it is still being sexist for me to treat a woman differently, even if more nicely, than a man.) Really, if you think about it, expecting a man to stick up for you because you are a woman is sexist in itself.

Picture this: a group of men is sitting around their camp, joking and being social. One of the men is much smaller than the others, so clearly at a physical disadvantage. The jokes start to be about the small man and get meaner and meaner until they turn into clear threats. He doesn't feel comfortable standing up for himself, because he could not defend himself effectively if he were attacked. The small man is tempted to leave, but has a good reason to fear that he will be followed and attacked if he does. He chooses to stay in camp, because if he is harmed there, maybe one of the other men will stand up for what is right and defend him, or at least call the local authorities to get him help.

In this situation, would a man stand up for the smaller man? I'd hope so. I never said that I wanted men to protect the weak, helpless, little girl from teasing or joking. I can give it out well as any man if I need to. But if it turns into fearing for my safety, I would hope that a man would stand up for me rather than stand back and watch as I'm harmed. I would also hope a woman would do the same, but as she'd be at the same physical disadvantage as me, I'd expect less from her than from a man. Do you understand what I mean?


I think that's what Marta meant about your "aura." If you expect special treatment because you are a woman, then expect men to be treat you differentlly than they would other men.

I do expect (and by expect, I mean it's what I think will happen, not necessarily what I want to happen) men to treat me differently than other men. I am, after all, not a man. I never said, or even implied (I don't think) that I want special treatment. I do expect (and this time I do mean want) the same respect that a man would accord to any stranger on the street. Being called by annoying nicknames, joked about in a crude way, and all the other rude behaviors I mentioned are extremely disrespectful, and no civilized person would treat a stranger that way. I am a stranger to any person I meet while out hiking, at least unless and until we get to know each other better, so I expect not to be treated in a rude and overly-familiar manner. Just as most men would expect, I think.


If the issue is sexism on the trail, the comments, whistles, etc are out of place and sexist and not acceptable....It is terrible behavior and should be treated as a crime. Assaulting one's dignity should be treated the same as physically assaulting or robbing them.

That's exactly what I'm trying to say.


But rude and inconsiderate behavior is not sexist.

When it is motivated by the gender of the person targeted, it is. That's the definition of sexist behavior. I very much doubt that the men in question would have made sexual jokes and comments about another man.


All this said, far and away the majority of people I have met on the trail and pleasant and considerate, and I have never seen a woman mistreated. Since it has happened to you already numerous times, perhaps you have exhausted all the ill kharma the world has in store for you and can look forward to clear sailing from here on out. I hope so. Best of luck.

I doubt I have exhausted all the ill karma, or whatever, since I've only encountered one truly threatening group of men, one mildly upsetting group, and one group that was just annoying. Considering I've been out hiking at least three times a week, for at least a few hours each time, in the past several months, I think my ratio of jerks to good people is looking ok. I don't think my question was out of line. I really don't understand the recent (and what's up with that, this is an old thread) responses, which seem to imply that I'm a helpless little wench who is whining and begging for all the males out there to take care of her. This couldn't be further from the truth. I only wanted to know if the sort of behavior I had experienced the day I posted my question was something I should be alert for in the future, so I could formulate an appropriate response.

Brrrb Oregon
12-07-2006, 17:17
Wow, way to drag up an old thread.
.....How exactly am I conveying my "inexperience"? Please explain this to me, because I can't imagine just seeing me hike by told these men that I was a new hiker. And even if they had some profound psychic ability to aid them, why would my inexperience be a good reason to threaten me so much that I was a little afraid for my safety?......

I definitely do not project any ort of helplessness. I like to be clean, and I keep my nails done (not long or painted, just neat). I wear a lot of pink, including. I'm very gentle, don't talk a lot, and don't curse. I dye my hair fun colors and always wear jewelry, usually pendants that have some meaning for me. My earings don't come out, so I also always have them on.

It may be just me, but maybe your pink pack was also clean? Pink shows dirt like crazy, so a clean pink pack could be seen without psychic ability from approximately four miles. It would say "Either I am so new to hiking that I chose a pink pack not knowing it would get dirty immediately or I am anal-retentive enough to get the dirt stains off of a pink pack that is going to be dirty again in a few days." Either possibility paints a big circle on your back for the those who like to bully or tease. Never mind that it is made of teflon super fabric that you couldn't get dirty if you wanted to. That is not the point. Perception, not reality, is what gets these idiots going.

Look at the sidelines at a football game. Who is clean? The guys who do not get to play and the place-kicker. Look around on the trail. How many people have clean fingernails? "Fun" jewelry? There are some people, certainly. There are others of us, though, who see the trail as precisely the part of the earth where make-up, jewelry, fussy hair care, and the non-essentials of life are just so much detritis, the very things we hike to get away from. There are also people on the trail who think anyone with an unwhittled toothbrush is an amateur. If you want to dress as if you don't care what they think about your choice of clothing, fine. I say more power to you! But if you're going to do that....then follow through! Don't care!


I don't generally enjoy crude jokes or talk, but prefer to remove myself from a group that likes that sort of joking rather than ask them to stop. Please tell me how any of these traits are inviting disrespect and demeaning comments.

I mean that I don't want to be cursed at, threatened, or joked about in a demeaning way. I mean that if I'm surrounded by a group of men and the joking gets sexual or threatening, I hope that at least one of the men will back me up when I object to being spoken about that way. I mean that if I'm talking to another hiker, male or female, about hiking subjects, I don't want their speech to "dumb down" as if I'm at a kindergarten level of comprehension. I mean that if I come to a shelter with only three men in it, I would like them to move over a little and make room for me without giving me dirty looks and grumbling. I mean that I would prefer not to be called by nicknames like "little girl," "honey," or "darling." Men wouldn't call other men "honey" or "darling", so why should they call me that. I would also prefer not to be whistled at or have sexual comments called out to my back as I hike away. I don't think any of these things are too much to ask, but please, correct me if I'm wrong.

I will not laugh off the comments made by the hikers I was talking about at the start of the thread. They were not a laughing matter. I wasn't about to get tough with them either, because each of them could have overpowered me without help, and they were clearly threatening. Now, tell me how I could have controlled the situation, besides the obvious answer of getting away as fast as possible , which I did? I'm assuming, by the tone of your post, that you would have considered it my fault if I had gotten hurt.

I don't want to be mean, I don't, but you just beg to be called "sweetie" and patted on the head, you really do. I can almost picture you with your arms crossed and your lip sticking out because people who are bigger than you don't talk the way you want them to when you come on to the scene. Really, you sound as if you're about ready to start talking in the second person. "Gentlemen, We are Not Amused."

That works for the Queen, but it ain't gonna work for us.

I grew up with six brothers, one of whom made it his life work to taunt me and make me miserable. He didn't make me "a little afraid for my safety". When I smarted off back to him, he literally beat me up....unless the next older brother held him off long enough so I could lock myself in the bathroom for awhile.

The torment only stopped when I quit making it fun for him. Instead of getting upset when he called me stupid, I'd say, "Yes, I'm about the most stupid person on the planet. Honestly, I don't know how you can stand being around me." Then I resisted the keen temptation to give him a smart-mouth smile and instead went back to what I was doing as if I had not a concern in the world. I totally did not give him any of the reactions he wanted.

When I stopped giving him emotional satisfaction and emotional power over me, it ended his little power trip. Don't fight. Don't run. Don't emotionally involve yourself in someone else's lack of self-control. Go the third way. Let their problems truly remain their problems. Then you have the power.

If you don't like the kind of comments that pink shirts and black skirts net you, you're going to have to wear something else or learn some other way to let it roll off your back. I wish it were not that way, but just as the biggest guy in the bar is the one that the little drunks try to get out into the alley for a fight, it is the petite and femininely dressed women that the pigs try to flirt with or put down. Idiots are like that. If you ever find a creative way to change that fact of life, patent it quick. You'll be a rich woman. As it is, I think you are left with resigning yourself to the fact that idiots will be idiots, and that when they sometimes choose to ignore your dignity as a human being it is no reflection on you.

Brrrb Oregon
12-07-2006, 17:19
Really, you sound as if you're about ready to start talking in the second person. "Gentlemen, We are Not Amused."

Correction: That would be the first person, plural. Oh well. We are Not Perfect.

Brrrb Oregon
12-07-2006, 17:29
On the subject of people who talk to you as if you were an idiot:
I've found that if you reply as if they had phrased the question in an adult way and give an adult answer yourself without trying to show off or defend your own ability, then they are the only ones who are embarrassed. After all, if someone goes up to a Nobel Prize winner, asks a question in a condescening manner, and gets a gracious and well-thought-out response, who is put to shame? Not the Nobel Prize winner. They come out looking like a million bucks and gain the admiration of everyone within earshot for their grace, intelligence, and class. The idiot, though, goes down five notches when they ask the question and another five when it is answered.

Skidsteer
12-07-2006, 18:02
Although I believe some of the basic assumptions to be flawed, I will post a link to this book...

http://www.amazon.com/Verbally-Abusive-Relationship-Recognize-Respond/dp/1558505822

...and recommend it to women or men who are worried about such things on the trail. The scripted responses to specific types of verbal assaults are worth the read and may help someone forced to deal with an idiot.

My apologies for the intrusion.

The Weasel
12-08-2006, 15:12
What goes above is generally correct; Rock, as he made clear in both posts, sums it up, but mostly for those who are classic long-distance hikers. On the AT, they are that way because they are into the ethos - the 'thing' - of backpacking.

But I think you need to be prepared for others who will not behave, just as you would in any other environment, and be prudent and cautious. "Trust your gut" is the best advice, and most women who I know who backpack follow it. Unwelcome situations will be very rare, but yes, they will happen. But you don't need to stress about the possibility.

The

VictoriaM
12-08-2006, 15:47
The assumptions being made about me here are just amazing - and laughably wrong.

So Brrb (and others), what you're telling me is that people have every right to be @$$holes to me, and that not only is it my fault, but that I need to either suck it up or change my way of being if I want them to stop?

Nope, not going to work for me.

I had an older brother growing up, too. Do you know what I did when he beat me up and tormented me? Did I make self-deprecating comments and hope against hope that he'd leave me alone? No, I beat him back.

I'm starting to get the message from certain posters on this thread that they think something is wrong with me, and that whatever unpleasant thing happens to me on my thru next year are exactly what I deserve for (gasp!) daring to be feminine.

If this is what I'm going to encounter next year, there are going to be a whole lot of unhappy thru-hikers around me, because I don't stand for that s**t.

So, anyone else that wants to claim that I'm bringing abuse and that I deserve to be treated this way, please do so now, or forever hold your piece. Than ****** the h**l off.

Almost There
12-08-2006, 16:26
Wow, just read this and have stayed away because I am a guy...but man oh man. Victoria I don't know you and therefore don't know how you are on the trail, but trust me, we are rarely the way we see ourselves. This is because we see ourselves in the way we hope others see us. Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't. That being said the guys you probably encountered aren't the type that go out for weeks at a time and hike, rather they are probably hike a day camp, drink, sleep...pack up and head home. I don't think Oregon was trying to insult you or condone the behavior of the knuckle draggers you dealt with, rather she was saying...idiots will be idiots and you aren't gonna change them simply because you want it to happen. Distance is the best rule with these types.

I live pretty close to Springer and in the spring when I am out on the trail out there I can spot new hikers from a mile away, they way the mountains in my neck of the woods kicks their butts and the shiny new...too much gear that they carry. Yeah, it's kinda funny, not because I find them funny but because we have all been there at one point in our life. Being made fun of because of gear is sort of a right of passage as long as it's not beat to death. As for being a girlie girl, good for you, nothing wrong with that, but your mistake here is how you went about posting, most members of the hiker community don't want to hear about complaints about a variety of things and if you have them then solve them because many of us have solved what bothered us on the trail...if there was anything. The other part to this is most on here love the trail and it's people, so when someone pops up saying we're being sexist, stalkerish, piggish, etc., it raises our hackles a little. You have a valid point but it probably was involving men who have nothing to do with this website.

Lastly, some people here are just messing with you, and by your last response...you let them get to you. I have been out hiking with other women more than my wife, hope to change that soon, anyways, I have not seen yet any evil advances towards them, although some very obvious, "It's a girl!!!" looks and posturing when they saw my hiking partner with me at the time. I saw it, don't know how fast she caught onto it. The point is it's gonna happen when you go out. If they get gross or inappropriate...leave. Quite often women will feel more threatened than they are, but trust your instinct to get out of a situation, if it gets really bad, you can always call upon others to get the offender moving. We look out for our own, just remember that.

VictoriaM
12-08-2006, 16:41
Oh, I do remember tha. And I'm obviouly not one of your own. Judging by this thread, that great thru-hiker community that everyone likes to talk about isn't something I'll be welcomed into. That's fine, and good to know ahead of time.

Speaking of knowing things ahead of time, if anyone cares to look at my orginal post, they'll see that all I wanted to know was how often to expect this type of behavior. I was expecting it from locals and dayhikers that I might meet along the way, not thrus. I also wasn't looking for any kind of advice on how to handle it, because I can take care of that just fine myself.

And no, no one has "gotten" to me. Of course tone can't be read over the internet, so rest assured that I'm perfectly calm and collected over the whole thing. I've just gone into cold b!tch mode, where I'll doubtless remain until I finish my thru next year.

The Weasel
12-08-2006, 16:46
I think I have to agree with pretty damn-all what Victoria says; how a person is treated is determined, solely, by the person who is doing the "treating." That's why Rock's 'Southern manners' are so good; it doesn't matter, in the deeply rooted training I suspect he got from his parents, who he is dealing with; all are entitled to the same consideration and respect regardless of their status or circumstances. (I rather doubt he'll disagree with that.)

All that being said, when I was hiking for 3 days north of Erwin with my daughter in '00, and we were passed by a young man and his somewhat younger (perhaps 17 or 18 year old) and very attractive, and somewhat revealingly dressed female companion, we chatted, as is common, and exchanged trail names. They said that yes, they were long distance hiking, and the young woman gave us her trail name as "Trail Bait."

My daughter - then 24 - said to me later, "I think a name like that is asking for trouble."

The Weasel

The Weasel
12-08-2006, 16:51
***Oh, I do remember tha. And I'm obviouly not one of your own. Judging by this thread, that great thru-hiker community that everyone likes to talk about isn't something I'll be welcomed into. That's fine, and good to know ahead of time..

V, I think you'll be very welcome by the real long distance types you find out there, and treated with courtesy and friendship by virtually all. Some of the people here seem to go to great efforts to 'act out', so I certainly understand how you may feel at this moment; It makes me wonder how many of them actually go out on the trail. If it helps, though, I've never seen any - any - behavior that I think you (or I) would consider boorish. As a son, husband and father of women, I watch for such things. I hope I'm right - and I think I am - and I hope to continue to be.

The Weasel

The Weasel
12-08-2006, 17:04
Given the same pack of guys, some women do have much more trouble with this than others. ***

Unfortunately, being a "girly girl" makes you a bit more of a target--particularly if it is reflected in your choice of dress ***

I wish one could fend off bullies and non-specific irritants by saying, "hey, that bothers me, quit it." ***

Of course, by all rights you should not have this to deal with.

Several things V and others should keep in mind, from the male perspective.

(1) There are more of us than there are of them. The "us" are the ones who treat women as they want their mothers, sisters, wives and daughters to be treated. Most men are like this. They don't even think about it; it's how they were brought up. They aren't, and never have been, "knuckledraggers" in terms of how they deal with women, which I think is the point of Rock, a/k/a a damn fine gentleman.

(2) You'll be part of the same kind of group on the trail as you are at home, except they will have packs and will be walking, lemming-like, towards Katahdin. Thru hikers make friends, who they tend to hang out with at shelters, tent sites and towns. Those friends look out for each other and act congenially at shelters, the same as at home. Think, "The TV show 'Friends' in a lean-to." Rude and offensive people get the whole group pissed off quickly.

(3) Dress like a thru hiker, act like a thru hiker, and act like a thru hiker, and you'll be treated (for good, usually, and occasionally, not) like a thru hiker. That's the case for men and women both. Women wear skirts, sometimes and comfortable tops, and often appear feminine; men wear shorts, or occasionally kilts, and comfortable tops, and may appear "masculine," whatever that is. Big deal.

(4) The "thru hiking" boors don't last long, if they even start. They get very lonely, very quickly. I mean that. This hike is something in which only a few can do it long without social interaction. There aren't enough jerks to be mutually supportive. They tend to quit, very quickly.

The Weasel

VictoriaM
12-08-2006, 18:19
Thank you for the kind words, Weasal. It's nice to know that at least one of the members here understands the idea of basic respect for all people, and doesn't blame the victim when that respect is denied.

The Weasel
12-08-2006, 18:39
This is my fourth or fifth consecutive post here, but that's because this thread is troubling me significantly. Not about its tone; it's a good thread. But this is an issue that is very important, and I'm not sure that V's point of view is being understood, and it's making me think about mine.

As noted above, I (and my daughter) thought that "Trail Bait" was a poor choice of name for a young girl on the AT who was dressed in a very revealing manner. But I think both my daughter and I - I'm hoping I'm right about myself here -realized that good manners don't depend on how the other person looks, but how they act.

V is concerned - and I think rightly - because she wants to have a particular look, which she calls "Girly-Girl". (I'm a little worried about that, because out here in California, that means "Democrat" - thank you, Ahhh-nolt! - and I'm a Democrat, so now I may need to dye my pack pink?) - yet other people take her appearance and act discourteously. And some of us suggest that while others might change their behavior, she should change her appearance, too.

Three days ago I was back in Michigan (my original home) on a case, and I ran into one of my former Scouts as a barista at a coffee shop. As he was several years ago, he had a few tatoos, a tongue stud, a ring in his eyebrow, and black clothes on. He was, by the way, an Eagle Scout. You can see that, still, in his behavior. But his appearance? Well, some people think he must be a devil worshipper, or worse. That's tragic. But what I like about him is that he thinks I dress strangely but still treats me with respect. (Yes, I was wearing my 'lawyer costume' right down to the wingtips.)

Too often, we treat people badly - or at least discourteously - because of how they look, rather than on how they act. And that's wrong; our behavior describes how we are, regardless of how someone looks. If a woman comes onto the trail dressed in a skirt, with a pink pack, and a decent pedicure, that doesn't say anything other than "skirt-pink-toes". It gives no one an excuse or justification for any discourteous behavior, and that woman is as entitled to be her own person as much as any man can dress in Doc Marten boots and spike hair. If theywant to do those things and hike the AT, they are welcome, and I'd enjoy sitting and sharing coffee with either.

And so would nearly everyone else who was there.

I'm still troubled, and I think the real hikers here share my feelings. I may not be putting it well, but I hope I'm understood.


The Weasel

bfitz
12-08-2006, 19:26
There's a fine line between being funny and being a rude a-hat. That line is mostly defined contextually and oftentimes folks aren't sensitive to changes in context, especially out on the trail where boundaries and norms are being challenged anyway, and often by the more eccentric or iconoclastic type of individuals.

Mammoth
12-08-2006, 20:04
Victoria, I hope that you have a better time on your thru than you did on those other hikes.

I mentioned this issue to my family and we all agreed that there are jack-a$$es everywhere, and that's coming straight from "minnesota nice." There is nothing that you can do to change those kinds of people, and as you have described it, you did nothing to merit that kind of attention. I think that the best use of this thread would be methods on how to deal with these people when the occasion arises, since there is no way to filter the "bad people" from using the trail. I personally don't know how to deal with it now, but I'm taking a self-defense class next semester in hopes that what I learn there will help me know how to avoid violence or abuse on the trail.

In all of my hiking, I have never had such an experience, and I feel so angry when I hear about what a scary time you had. I only hope that you are able to start and finish your hike in safety and happiness.

VictoriaM
12-08-2006, 20:09
I'll risk further danger here and admit that I'm a complete pacifist. My beliefs are such that I wouldn't harm another person even in self defense. That's why this is such a big issue for me - I need to be on guard more than the average hiker. That a-hole who's making sick jokes could just be a jerk, or he could be planning to hurt me. The sooner I determine the difference and can hightail it out of that situation, the better. I tend to assume people who act like that, and to that extreme, are thinking of doing my harm, because it's the only safe thing I can do.

The Weasel
12-08-2006, 20:31
I'll risk further danger here and admit that I'm a complete pacifist. *** I tend to assume people who act like that, and to that extreme, are thinking of doing my harm, because it's the only safe thing I can do.

V -

I say this with great care and concern, because a very wonderful girl who was very close to my family was killed 20 years ago while hiking in California, and her killer never found. She was hiking alone, though, in an area where (unlike the AT) people didn't hike much, especially by themselves, so there were no 'trail friends' in her area, either. But your instincts are very right: Stay away from people who concern you. Decent men (and women) don't do things that cause concern to others about their safety, and then run and say "Just kidding! What's your problem?"

But I think you'll find that the jerks and people who concern you here are mostly non-hikers, in reality, and that being on the trail, you'll find a far greater sense of safety than you think now.

The Weasel

Almost There
12-08-2006, 21:22
Victoria,

I was trying to explain why so many around here turned into defensive mode. Your question perhaps came at a bad time after the run around about pinkblazing, etc. People here were already on the defensive about being made to feel as if there was something wrong with the behavior of hikers. Most of us are good people who I am sure would be happy to share a fire or shelter with you. Also another thing to remember is that sometimes intent or meaning can be misconstrued here in posts and of course there are those here who appear much different online than they do out on the trail. Personally, I think anytime a gal gets out on the trail it's a good thing. I think if you go into it looking to meet great people you will be around some great people from day one. I guess I hesitated from posting originally is because you have already heard enough krap, so you go and do what makes you feel good and don't worry about what others think. You'll meet plenty of people who will accept and like you for who you are and screw the others.

People here at WB would accept you on the trail...and when I said people were getting to you I wasn't trying to insinuate that you were weak...only human. Don't rise to the bait...and they'll stop. Some people fee the need to be childish, ain't saying it's right, just how it is. There are plenty of people who who will behave more in line with what you believe or like, you'll find'em on the trail. Plenty of personality types for everyone. Oh, one last thing...have a great hike!

VictoriaM
12-08-2006, 23:08
Thanks for more kind words. I understand the "pink blazing" issue and agree with the board concensus about it. I wasn't trying to address that here, as I think it's a non-issue. What I was trying to address is that bad things do happen to women hikers, usually at the hands of locals or other who happen to wander onto the trail, or see the women in town. I'm usually pretty open and friendly with men, especially on the trail, and was disturbed by the unwarranted hostility I experienced at the hands of several men who were obviously day walkers, not "real" hikers.

I'm glad to see that some of you are understanding what I was trying to say about treating people with respect no matter how they appear. For my part, I apologize if I got too defensive. My appearance (which doesn't really stand out) has been an issue to someone or other almost from the moment I was born, so it makes me a bit rabid whenever it comes up. I judge others based on their behavior, and only hope that I will be extended the same courtesy.

blackbishop351
12-08-2006, 23:44
Victoria -

You're hiking for yourself and your own reasons, so why worry about other people and what they think or say? You've got enough challenges to worry about just getting to Katadhin - don't add more worries to the list.

In the end, having to deal with other people's crap is part of life. We can't change the way others think or act, only how we react. Ask yourself, is getting bent out of shape over some jerk hurting you or the jerk? I can almost guarantee they don't care if you're pissed or not.

Is it possible that some kind of violent atrocity could befall you on the trail? Anything's possible. You could get killed walking your (incredibly cute) dogs. It doesn't seem, to me anyway, that that sort of thing is something that happens with any kind of regularity, though. And I also know that you, no matter how "little and weak" you claim you to be, are perfectly capable of taking care of yourself.

Stop bothering with the jerks you encounter, whether here or on the trail. Just focus on your hike and the sense of accomplishment you'll have at the end. I think you'll have a much more pleasant experience as a whole.

As always, just my .02 :D

Lone Wolf
12-09-2006, 04:59
Lately I've started thinking about this a lot. I'm not worried for my safety on my thru next year - I'm aware that hikers are a generally harmless lot. What I'm worried about is that male hikers will make my hike unpleasant with their attitudes. So, have any female long distance hikers here (and especially thru hikers) found that male hikers have made a negative impact on their experience?

Of course not all men behave this way, but what I've found both here (a little bit) and out on day hikes (a lot) so far is that an awful lot of them seem to have a very low opinion of women, and make lots of rude jokes and comments to show it. What is it about outdoorsy males that makes (some of) them so hateful towards women? I'd really love the answer to that question.

This "sexism" you speak of is hardly an issue on the AT. Chivalry is much more of a problem. Thanks to "feminism" a lot of women don't want doors held open for them, etc. I was bitched at once by a gal cuz I offered to go get her water for her( I've done the same for men) she said she was quite capable to get it on her own. Whatever. Damned if you do...

warraghiyagey
12-09-2006, 05:01
Victoria,

A few weeks ago there was a feature in the Boston Globe Sunday Magazine on pink blazing. When I finished reading it I felt that it had given the general readership a very negative view on hiking the AT.
I was surprised by the article because I had just hiked Katahdin to Dalton, Mass. and hadn't heard anything of the sort from the well represented female hikers on the trail.
But it would be naive to think the trail exempt from this mysoginistic thread in our society. And the authors story (personal experience) was embarassing at least but more accurately downright troubling.
As a member of the opposite gender I feel free on the trail in every way and that same freedom lends perspective to the experience a female could have as prey.
This problem is exacerbated by the paradox of confinement on such a vast expanse of land. Avoiding others on the trail is difficult as you can't avoid something you don't know is coming and at the end of the day, hiking away from a camp crowd that makes you uncomfortable shouldn't have to be your only resort.
While the good guys would like to be protective and chivalrous and will be if needed, those qualities reflect the same problem that belie the freedom that we all seek.
With all that said, I met girls that hiked together and girls who had fallen in with a group of guys that they trusted and enjoyed their AT experience with. And also girls that hiked alone. While none of them expressed a problem with safety issues, too many others have.
I wish I had an answer beyond that that included the answer to hiking the way you want in freedom and security - as we all want - but short of committing to hiking with people you trust, I think it's the same crap-shoot that girls experience in every facet of life.
I wish you a safe, wonderful hike enjoying the freedom of the trail. If your experience is to hike alone I think we all send out the good energy to our sisters. Otherwise, hiking with trusted friends is a great way to experience the trail.
The girls I've known who finished the trail with the experience they'd hoped for seemed to have a solid strength of faith. While that might seem logically impractical for this particular problem, I wouldn't discount it's power.
Peace and hope to see you on the trail. SOBO June '07.
Peace

Toolshed
12-09-2006, 08:58
Speaking of knowing things ahead of time, if anyone cares to look at my original post, they'll see that all I wanted to know was how often to expect this type of behavior. I was expecting it from locals and dayhikers that I might meet along the way, not thrus. I also wasn't looking for any kind of advice on how to handle it, because I can take care of that just fine myself.

Maybe it is the wrong choice of words, and I am not trying to piss you off, but Perception is usually Reality. You would like to know how often to expect this kind of behavior (your words)
and you were/are expecting it from locals and dayhikers.(your words) Is there some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy going on here?

You seem to bristle at the fact that others have pointed out that you aren't that experienced as a hiker/backcountry person yet, however in looking at the threads you started, it seems to be all about the fact that you are inexperienced.... It was only a few months ago that you said you were a "3-star hotel" "city girl" with "no hiking experience" and were looking for someone patient to hike with as you were a total newb, were buying some first basic bits of gear and at one point, apparently scared out of your wits about something stalking you (in NJ?)

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16050&page=2
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16051
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16048
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16385
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17874&page=2
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18403

Is it possible, that perhaps you don't know what you don't know?? As the way you look at things start to change the things themselves start to change... You might simply not see in your actions and responses what someone who has been hiking for 10-20 years sees.

Yes you have probably gained a lot of experience from the overnight trips or the dayhikes you've had in the past few months, but for many of us, it has taken at least several years (or a good portion of a thru) to learn and become experienced on the trail - It might takes many different situations to build experience and to have rational expectations of the back-country.
In fact, In many cases, I find it takes at least a day or two on the trail just to erase "living in today's populated society" feeling.

I do think that you will find a lot of very good folks on the trail, but I truly believe you might only see them in the light that is based on the preconceived perceptions that you have built about them.

Lone Wolf
12-09-2006, 09:12
My appearance (which doesn't really stand out) has been an issue to someone or other almost from the moment I was born, so it makes me a bit rabid whenever it comes up.

Post a pic so we can see what all the fuss is about.

Toolshed
12-09-2006, 09:48
.... I'm usually pretty open and friendly with men, especially on the trail, and was disturbed by the unwarranted hostility I experienced at the hands of several men who were obviously day walkers, not "real" hikers..
BTW, Sounds like you were judging these "men who were obviously day walkers, not real" hikers, based on what you saw and they were doing the same to you - Where is the issue???


....
My appearance (which doesn't really stand out) has been an issue to someone or other almost from the moment I was born, so it makes me a bit rabid whenever it comes up. I judge others based on their behavior, and only hope that I will be extended the same courtesy.
What do others say about your appearance that it is an issue... I am not understanding this. This is your pic you posted in the gallery right??? So what is it that makes men so sexist about you????? You brought it up. I am curious now

Brrrb Oregon
12-09-2006, 12:55
I'm glad to see that some of you are understanding what I was trying to say about treating people with respect no matter how they appear. For my part, I apologize if I got too defensive. My appearance (which doesn't really stand out) has been an issue to someone or other almost from the moment I was born, so it makes me a bit rabid whenever it comes up. I judge others based on their behavior, and only hope that I will be extended the same courtesy.

Your expectation to be treated with dignity and respect is a reasonable expectation. The question, though, is how to handle it when people insist on being pigs instead of human beings.

There are several possibilities:
a) you recognize that certain outward manifestations raise the statistical likelihood that you will be a target and alter your outward appearance and behaviors accordingly
b) you recognize that certain outward manifestations raise the statistical likelihood that you will be a target, refuse to alter your outward appearance and behaviors accordingly, and find a way to confront them about it that won't get you roughed up
c) you recognize that certain outward manifestations raise the statistical likelihood that you will be a target, refuse to alter your outward appearance and behaviors accordingly, and resolve to avoid confrontation about it in a dignified manner.

I vote for "c". You are going to get more comments if you dress girly-girl than if you don't, but pigs will be pigs and some choose to be pigs in a more-or-less random manner. I can't see letting my life revolve around their lack of class. They choose their actions, I choose mine. Now, this presumes that nobody would go hiking wearing their grandmother's diamonds, hoping not to be robbed, or dressing like a streetwalker, hoping not to be whistled at. You don't strike me as defining "girly" in a vulgar way, so that is the trivial example, having nothing to do with you.

Then there is the matter of being a pacifist. Your choices are:
a) Decide that your pacifism only goes so far and learn some self-defense techniques.
b) Decide to hike with those who aren't pacifists and who are capable of sticking up for you.
c) Resolve to remain a pacifist and do what you can to stay safe by travelling in groups or by giving the impression of being quite able to take care of yourself thank you very much when you hike alone.

I'm not a pacifist, so I'm not the one to vote. I'm in the "c" camp, but when push comes to shove, I'll go for the eyes, whether it is animal or human attacking. (Not counting grizzly bears. I'm not a total idiot.)

VictoriaM
12-09-2006, 13:11
Maybe it is the wrong choice of words, and I am not trying to piss you off, but Perception is usually Reality....etc.

Yup, I'm not as experienced as most of you here. But, I've been out hiking constantly since my decision to do my thru next year, have done some overnights, sorted through my gear, and done tons of research. Does that make me experienced now? No, but I'm well past inexperienced at this point. At any rate, what does this have to do with anything? I thought we had already established that basic respect should be given to everyone, regardless of what they do or do not know.

On expectations - I expect, if I have problems with people along the way, that it's much more likely to be fron locals than from other thrus. Maybe I wasn't clear enough on that point in the post you quoted. Is it clear enough now?

On being stalked - You're reading way more into that than was really there. I'm rarely afraid of anything, and this case was no exception. I was excited at the idea that there might have been some large predator following me, so close to civilization. I was a little nervous for my dogs, though.

So, I came here to post in the women's forum, to ask other women whether they had experienced this type of behavior on their thru. Very shortly after, a group of men bulldoze their way into this thread, tell me I'm bringing abuse on myself because I look like what I am, tell me that because I'm not a terribly experienced backpacker I must have no idea how to conduct myself in social interactions, and basically side with men who went out of their way to be threatening @$$holes to me. Ok, so point me to the part where my inexperience as a hiker is causing the trouble? At this point this thread has nothing to do with hiking. It's about men dogpiling me because I dared to complain about the behavior of other men. You say most hiking men are safe and will treat me with respect? Show it.

VictoriaM
12-09-2006, 13:16
What do others say about your appearance that it is an issue... I am not understanding this. This is your pic you posted in the gallery right??? So what is it that makes men so sexist about you????? You brought it up. I am curious now

I have no idea. The cause of this post is one of the very few occassions I've ever experienced this kind of behavior from men. I usually get along with men better than I do with women. When I commented that my appearance has always been an issue to someone, I wasn't talking about men or sexism. I was talking about people I have known, and was making a private joke to myself. I'm used to flack about my appearance because I've always gotten it from someone...male, female, related to me, teachers, friends, employers, you name it. But that's beside the point.

As was mentioned by someone farther up the thread, my appearance has nothing t do with anything. Those guys were @$$holes because that's what they are, and it had nothing to do with me except that I was the unlucky girl who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Lone Wolf
12-09-2006, 13:17
You say most hiking men are safe and will treat me with respect? Show it.

Get your butt to Georgia and start walking. You'll see.:)

VictoriaM
12-09-2006, 23:27
Get your butt to Georgia and start walking. You'll see.:)

I intend to. :D And you at least, Mr. Wolf, I think I'd get along with just fine.

Toolshed
12-10-2006, 08:29
[Edit/deleted: I misread this - I thought you mentioned someone on the forum threatened you - Sorry.]

Per your original post......

.....
Of course not all men behave this way, but what I've found both here (a little bit) and out on day hikes (a lot) so far is that an awful lot of them seem to have a very low opinion of women, and make lots of rude jokes and comments to show it. What is it about outdoorsy males that makes (some of) them so hateful towards women? I'd really love the answer to that question.
I honestly think you were looking for a bunch of folks (women perhaps) to open up and tell you all the horror stories of men on the trail and it didn't quite work out that way.

But like LW said (get good footwear first and then...) get your A$$ to GA in 90 days and start hiking and see for yourself - Get a couple of days on the trail and away from all the worrries, achs, general illnesses of society and I think all will be fine.:)

Rain Man
12-10-2006, 13:31
So, I came here to post in the women's forum, to ask other women whether they had experienced this type of behavior on their thru. Very shortly after, a group of men bulldoze their way into this thread, tell me I'm bringing abuse on myself because I look like what I am, tell me that because I'm not a terribly experienced backpacker I must have no idea how to conduct myself in social interactions, and basically side with men who went out of their way to be threatening @$$holes to me. Ok, so point me to the part where my inexperience as a hiker is causing the trouble? At this point this thread has nothing to do with hiking. It's about men dogpiling me because I dared to complain about the behavior of other men. You say most hiking men are safe and will treat me with respect? Show it.

Victoria, I think you have been treated inexcusably in this thread. It appears this is the Testosterone Forum, not the Female Hikers' Forum, if you ask me. Not all men (nor all macho women for that matter) are this way!

Rain:sunMan

.

Brrrb Oregon
12-10-2006, 17:45
Victoria, I think you have been treated inexcusably in this thread. It appears this is the Testosterone Forum, not the Female Hikers' Forum, if you ask me. Not all men (nor all macho women for that matter) are this way!

Rain:sunMan

I'm a female, and I can tell you as a plain fact that there is a billion dollar industry built around the fact that how you are treated, and especially how you are treated by strangers, is absolutely linked to how you look.

I wish it were not so. I wish there were not jerks out hiking and trying to make it the boys club that it was 50 years ago. But, as the saying goes, if wishes were horses, everyone could ride.

Victoria seems to be complaining about those of us who won't deny human nature....because nobody on this forum is saying that a decent person has some right to act indecently if they are but given some lame pretext by the behavior of others. I think that a 4 foot 8 drag queen in high heels ought to be able to hike in as much peace as his footwear will allow. That is not what I would predict, however.

The question is this: does she want to stop the behavior, learn how to cope with it, or just have someone to pat her on the shoulder and say, "There, there, those people were so awful to you!"? Well, of course they were!

If she had decided to walk down the street and was complaining that somebody stole the diamonds off of her, would it be out of line to suggest to her that those who wear diamonds in public take that chance? Would that somehow be a vote in favor of theft? I don't think so.

I don't think she's been treated inexcusably at all. I think she asked a question and doesn't like the answers she's getting....and blames it on the idea that those who don't show enough sympathy are not quite female enough to understand.

Maybe she ought to put herself in the place of a little man who is treated this way and realize that this isn't about sex. It is about how idiots act towards people they perceive to be different than they are.

She wants to learn how to teach a pig to sing. You can't do that. You just frustrate yourself and annoy the pig.

On that note, I'm feeling a little bit in that same boat, myself. Don't take advice that you don't like, people, but maybe cut it out with the personal comments about how horrible we are to suggest it.

Marta
12-10-2006, 22:09
So, I came here to post in the women's forum, to ask other women whether they had experienced this type of behavior on their thru. Very shortly after, a group of men bulldoze their way into this thread, tell me I'm bringing abuse on myself because I look like what I am, tell me that because I'm not a terribly experienced backpacker I must have no idea how to conduct myself in social interactions, and basically side with men who went out of their way to be threatening @$$holes to me. Ok, so point me to the part where my inexperience as a hiker is causing the trouble? At this point this thread has nothing to do with hiking. It's about men dogpiling me because I dared to complain about the behavior of other men. You say most hiking men are safe and will treat me with respect? Show it.


Victoria--I am a woman posting on the women's forum during my brief online time during a thru-hike. I have never had a moment's trouble with any other hiker during my thru-hike, or during the several years of section and weekend hikes which preceded it. So...given the difference between your experience and mine, I offered some possible reasons for the difference. And you jumped down my throat.

I hope you have a good hike...but if you keep searching for reasons to be offended, I doubt you will.

jambalaya
12-12-2006, 20:03
Here's a fun story about sexist men:

I was at work last night, and two of the waiters, standing right next to me, proceeded to have a detailed, graphic conversation about girls they'd had, sex with their current girlfriends, various attributes of girls they'd known, etc. I said, "Hello, guys, I'm right here. Will ya shut up?" They did, moving on to a conversation about how annoying it was to have to spend 1000's of dollars on Christmas presents for their girlfriends.

These guys exist for sure. But I've definately met more of them (proportionally) in the city than on the trail. In fact, I met none on my thru-hike.

How to deal if you do? Like in real life -- lighten up. Sometimes I allow myself to be amused at these kinds of antics; other times I tell them I find them offensive. Either way, they're just co-workers. And folks on the trail are just other hikers -- we don't all have to be best friends.

The Weasel
12-12-2006, 20:15
Jambalaya ---

As a man, I've learned one thing: Women don't have to "lighten up." Women are entitled to turn on any man they see behaving badly and say, "You're behaving badly and I don't like it." I used to be told by coworkers, "Hey, ol' Jim just tells those 'black jokes' and you should just 'lighten up' when he does." So I told Jim, the second time I heard one, that I didn't like them and was offended. I didn't yell, scream or pitch a fit. I just said about those words. He looked at me a little surprised, and said, "Oh. I didn't mean to offend anyone." He hasn't told "black jokes" for the last 15 years, and we're pretty close friends now. He sometimes reminds me that I did that, and thanks me. I'm flattered.

I would rather women said, "I don't like that joke" or "Don't talk to me like that" than "lighten up" and be thought to encourage such things by their silence.

I realize that I'm not a woman...but my mom, wife and daughter are, and they've taught me to think about such things.

The Weasel

Brrrb Oregon
12-14-2006, 00:13
Jambalaya ---

As a man, I've learned one thing: Women don't have to "lighten up." Women are entitled to turn on any man they see behaving badly and say, "You're behaving badly and I don't like it." I used to be told by coworkers, "Hey, ol' Jim just tells those 'black jokes' and you should just 'lighten up' when he does." So I told Jim, the second time I heard one, that I didn't like them and was offended. I didn't yell, scream or pitch a fit. I just said about those words. He looked at me a little surprised, and said, "Oh. I didn't mean to offend anyone." He hasn't told "black jokes" for the last 15 years, and we're pretty close friends now. He sometimes reminds me that I did that, and thanks me. I'm flattered.

I would rather women said, "I don't like that joke" or "Don't talk to me like that" than "lighten up" and be thought to encourage such things by their silence.

I realize that I'm not a woman...but my mom, wife and daughter are, and they've taught me to think about such things.

The Weasel

We all have rights, including the right to be treated with dignity. We have the choice about how we're going to exercise that right. As far as being "entitled to turn on any man" I see behaving badly, I realize that a sense of entitlement is the bread and butter of the law, but I've found life is much happier if I don't concentrate too much on what I'm entitled to. I prefer to do what works, and that changes depending on the situation.

My dignity is something I expect others to respect, but it is not theirs to give to me or to take away. I do not have to defend it at every turn....and so yes, sometimes I choose to lighten up. If someone is trying to get a rise out of me, I have found that refusing to play their little game is usually effective. If they are just fools, I have not found much luck in re-training them. After all, I'm entitled to have my belongings left alone even if I don't lock my doors, but that doesn't mean I don't have locks.

OTOH, I don't expect Victoria to choose to "lighten up" just because I do. It is something she might try, that is all I am saying. If she were in my camp and decided to tell some idiots to cut it out and they ignored her, though, they would be the ones in my sights, not her. She has every right to be offended in the cases she describes, after all. If they want peace with me, they have no right to deliberately offend.

The Weasel
12-14-2006, 00:43
Well put.

The Weasel

bfitz
12-14-2006, 01:53
My dignity is something I expect others to respect, but it is not theirs to give to me or to take away. I do not have to defend it at every turn....and so yes, sometimes I choose to lighten up. If someone is trying to get a rise out of me, I have found that refusing to play their little game is usually effective. If they are just fools, I have not found much luck in re-training them.
I agree with the Weasel. These are wise words.

jambalaya
12-14-2006, 14:38
Yes, that's really all I was saying, Brrb. If someone is behaving badly, by all means -- let them know. But it's not always worth the energy to get all worked up about it. I also see Weasel's point about racist jokes. Yes, you may be able to stop the guy from telling them in your presence (which is a step in the right direction of course), but it's unlikely you'll really change his attitude.

Toolshed
12-14-2006, 23:20
We all have rights, including the right to be treated with dignity. We have the choice about how we're going to exercise that right. As far as being "entitled to turn on any man" I see behaving badly, I realize that a sense of entitlement is the bread and butter of the law, but I've found life is much happier if I don't concentrate too much on what I'm entitled to. I prefer to do what works, and that changes depending on the situation.

Wise words to live by Thank you!!!

clm42
12-20-2006, 22:25
Im a man and can say taht on the trail I set a crazy pace just by nature. If a woman cant keep up Im not going to say anything, alot of guys cant stay with me long. If you can though. Ill cook you dinner. I wont ever mis treat women in the real world poorly much less on the trail. I go out to relax and know others do too so why should I make them have a hard time? It would only hurt me in the long run because whenever I hike with lady friends they seem to be less likly to forget things and more likely to share!

warraghiyagey
12-21-2006, 01:32
Im a man and can say taht on the trail I set a crazy pace just by nature. If a woman cant keep up Im not going to say anything, alot of guys cant stay with me long. If you can though. Ill cook you dinner. I wont ever mis treat women in the real world poorly much less on the trail. I go out to relax and know others do too so why should I make them have a hard time? It would only hurt me in the long run because whenever I hike with lady friends they seem to be less likly to forget things and more likely to share!

Sooo. . . you're justification for not mistreating women is that you might get something out of it? Is it possible there's a much more powerful reason that should be easier to grasp. . . now . . . 2006 AD?

The Weasel
12-21-2006, 02:24
I don't think he's as much of a knuckledragger as it sounds. Just not totally able to say what he means, and a little clueless, but us guys often are. He'll get it, or else the gene pool will improve. Either way, it works.

The Weasel

Brrrb Oregon
12-21-2006, 18:27
I don't think he's as much of a knuckledragger as it sounds. Just not totally able to say what he means, and a little clueless, but us guys often are. He'll get it, or else the gene pool will improve. Either way, it works.

The Weasel

Oh, how I wish knuckledraggers had fewer opportunities to pass on their genes. Inexplicably, this is not so.....but that is a topic for another thread. I agree with you, though. I don't think that poster was a knuckledragger and I don't think he meant to offend anyone.

Guys, especially guys brought up in rural or outdoorsy families, have very often been socialized out of considering their feelings at all past the age of about five or six. At least in the past, many were told to suck it up and act like they couldn't get their feelings hurt when they were teased. Being told you were lousy at something was an invitation trade boasts and put-downs with your friends. Teasing that was taken as a joke was passed off as "bonding" behavior, as if they were bear cubs wrestling. In this group, being hassled is taken as a sign of acceptance and being left alone as a sign of rejection. I don't know if I'd call that clueless, but there are definitely huge cultural differences from one group of guys to the next when it comes to what they mean by hassling or teasing somebody.

Still, it does not hurt to remind them with a claw to the nose that you, as it turns out, are a bobcat kitten, and do not care to join their game.

Socrates
01-06-2007, 16:17
I thought this was an interesting thread because I have a true passion for psychology and philosophy. Being that I'm a male, my apologies if my viewpoint is not welcome here. Please send me a message and I'll never open my yap again. I just think that this thread could benefit from anyone that has a valid thought - male or female. Whatever I say is only to try and be helpful so that the females who do have an unfortunate encounter may still enjoy their day and their hike because that's what they deserve... Everyone deserves. And well, this theory applies to life in general.
For starters, I try to not look at things from a male or female perspective. I try to think genderless and from the persepctive that we are all living beings with a common denominator... Dreams, fears, insecurities, likes and dislikes...
Testosterone and estrogen can influence a persons personality, but only those who are ignorant to the "true self" allow it to dominate their actions and who/what they feel they are and also their place/role in society. Unfortunately, this occurence makes an inevitable (possibly subconscious and usually negative) impact on every human being that it interacts with.
Personaly, I feel that humans are capable of reaching a higher plane of existence, an awakening or enlightenment, when given the oppurtunity and proper tools, but sadly, ignorance runs rampant (which is a fact that we must acknowledge and understand) and it interferes with the potential betterment of the "true self".
A misunderstanding of or resentment towards the opposite sex in any given situation has deeper underlying matters than just genetalia and hormones and a bad attitude. Actually, the same type of frictions could also be correlated to issues of race, sexual preference, religious beliefs and other human rights related matters.
Always remember that this life is not just yours, but that we share the experience of life. We all come from different walks of life, how we were raised, what we were taught, what we've experienced and how we coped with every single situation, thought, and occurence in our lifetime to date.
In the end, don't have such high expectations others. It's better to not have expectations at all. You'll the find that you'll never be let down or disappointed and your life will be that less stressful.
I certainly don't mean that you should become cynical, withdrawn, or give up on your fellow mankind. Instead, learn to practice tolerance, understanding, compassion and help those who are less fortunate in ways of ignorance. Lead and teach by example. If you can't better yourself, you're certainly in no position to better others.
The bottom line: Don't sweat the small stuff. It's not always easy, but don't let others get to you. You have the right to feel good and to love yourself and no one can take that away unless you let them.
Laugh at me if you want, but in most given situations that you don't feel comfortable, just ask yourself "What would Austin Powers do?" I try to laugh in life more than anything else.
Yeah baby! ~ Socrates

Programbo
01-06-2007, 17:44
If I may be so bold as to throw out a couple of thoughts (I realize this is the "Female" forum however every now and then I see a post where a woman is asking other women why men act a certain way when to get a good answer they should be asking men) I also realize the original poster only wanted to ask other gals if the guys attitude had been a negative impact on their hike and wasn`t exactly interested in WHY the guys acted as they did. (I think that will definitely depend on ones attitude in life to start with as a LOT of women seem to have a chip on their shoulder) ...So my two cents as far as WHY the guys may act a certain way is that :A) It`s a macho thing as they feel they are doing some great physical feat and seeing a woman doing it also makes it seem less great in their minds and they feel resentful. B) Some guys want to get back to nature and a simpler older time when "men were men and women were women" and seeing a gal out there doing the same thing they are ruins that illusion for them. C) Guys are always jerks to each other and in trying to accept the gals as an equal on the trail they act just as jerky to them (But women aren`t used to that much equalness in normal society and they take it as hostility).....I guess that`s my two cents..Sorry to intrude on the gals board..Have a wonderful day :)

oldfivetango
01-07-2007, 10:51
Well I hope I don't sound too patronizing then :D

But I was raised that a gentlemen from the south has manners, and uses them. You respect people when you meet them and don't expect them to earn it first - but they can also lose your respect (later). When it comes to women: a southern gentlemen believes that you still hold a door open for a woman, you only talk respectfully about your mother, you only talk respectfully about your wife and any other female relatives, you take your hat off when sitting at the supper table, women are always referred to as mam unless they ask you too otherwise, when getting in line, women go first, you should speak up when you feel someone is being rude to a woman, and you do not immediately assume you can hug a woman as a greeting unless you know her well. I am sure that is not all of the things that go with it, but just some off the top of my head.

Right on to all that Sgt Rock!That said,most of the men should just
adopt the policy I use which is this-Leave the Ladies ALONE!
Come March,I will celebrate my 30th wedding anniversary to the
same lady.If I want to talk to a lady on the trail then I will just have
to get to a phone and call her.I do not talk to,visit with,or have any
sort of relationship with other females other than family with the
exception of my hairdresser and dental hygieneist.(and that is in a
very pulic place etc)
The reason for this post is to remind the guys that most of the
women out there have a chip on their shoulder if they are involved
in a male dominated arena and they just want to be left alone.Most
of the others naturally assume that if you show them any attention
and try to strike up a conversation with them that you have an
ulterior motive.(sometimes rightly so as the testosterone is likely
doing the talking).
So I will add another little "southern culture thing"
As children we used to be raised to "speak when spoken to"
with regard to the adults.I have learned that the same adage
applies to the ladies as well.Most people value their "personal
space" and I am all in favor of respecting that!
Cheers to all,
OFT

The Weasel
01-07-2007, 17:07
Five ---

I try to share - as a Northerner - the same 'manners' that Rock mentions, and those aren't due to geography. But I think you and I differ about "most women out there have a chip on their shoulder if they are in a male dominated area." Your words sort of show a blind spot; if it's a "male dominated area," it seems to me that it's men that have the "chip."

But either way, my experience in life, including backpacking, is that there's no such "chip", nor do women want to be left alone, nor do they assume that every contact is sexually based. Over-familiarity ("Hey, baby!") or sexual innuendo ("Wow! Lookit her!") is unwelcome, but "Hi, Sue. Need some water?" isn't going to cause problems. Most women simply want to be treated like most men do: Nicely, in a friendly manner. You don't need to be afraid of talking to other women; most of them are humans, and the rest, well, they usually tolerate us lesser types too.

The Weasel

Socrates
01-07-2007, 17:45
Ok, I posted a realistic and enlightened response earlier, but now I'm tired, cranky, and ready for bed and I just wanna add one more thing and I'm never going to say another word...
I respect everyone, not just women. But if you would like to make this a sexist perspective, let me give you ladies a little food for thought. There are SOME men who get higher paying jobs and there are SOME guys who don't respect women. And I'm not naming any names here, but if you're letting guys get to you that bad, you just need to get over it. I see things a bit diferently. I'm not making a generalization of women here because I believe that we are all eually capable of success, but I also see women driving Hummers and Land Rovers and they don't even have jobs. I see women without children gossiping their heads off in a coffee shop or in malls either living off their divorce settlement or their husbands are at WORK. And you think men get all the good careers and dominate society? Hell, sometimes I'd just like to have a decent job and when I ask the 16 to 25 year old girl if they're hiring, she asks her 16 to 25 year old girlfriend and then tells me "Ummm I don't know, but we're always taking applications!" And I just love it when a woman walks through a door in front of me and then lets it shut in my face or when I open the door for them and they don't even say thankyou because they expect it. And if a ugly guy looks at your body for "too long", you think he's a perv, but if you like him, then it turns you on. And professional men put on the same boring suit eeevery single day, while the ladies get to play dress up! Heels or sandals? Loopy earings or studs? Shut I put my hair up? In a pony tail? A professional skirt or a dress? Oh my! What color? Yuck, this lipstick is too dark!
Like I said, I do respect women, but I just wanted you to know that you're not alone. We all have problems in this world. I don't exactly like my status in life either, but I rise above it and I'm still nice to those young cute girls with no experience working a job that I could do better. I'm nice to the spoiled rich women who haven't worked a day in their life and stare down at me if I'm working a job that pays hourly. You know why? Cause I'm just a nice guy. you want some guys to respect you simply because you're a woman? Then maybe you should try showing him some respect for being a man. I think the theory is crap, but if you want to see it in a purely sexist way, there ya go. It goes both ways. I need sleep....

Lone Wolf
01-07-2007, 20:20
Y'all are gettin' too deep about this percieved sexism thing on the AT. It's about as much a problem as bear attacks, snake bites and me doin' all white-blazes from Ga-Me. Damn y'all! Chill.:)

Programbo
01-07-2007, 20:36
...and me doin' all white-blazes from Ga-Me.

I`ve always thought the Tuscarora Trail would make a good alternate for a GA-ME thru

Lone Wolf
01-07-2007, 20:38
I`ve always thought the Tuscarora Trail would make a good alternate for a GA-ME thru

you damn right! lotsa alternatives on the at.

dixicritter
01-07-2007, 21:51
Ummm fellas the ladies left this topic a while ago. Settle down. LOL.

RAT
01-07-2007, 22:04
It's about as much a problem as bear attacks, snake bites and me doin' all white-blazes from Ga-Me. Damn y'all! Chill.

Since when is you doing all the white blazes a problem ? LOL Not ever gonna happen anyway !!!!

I have always treated females on the trail with much respect like my mama taught me to do and have never seen any "sexist" issues pertaining to such and have always been treated in the same manner by those females. (Of course there may be other thoughts going thru my mind at the time, lol, but I am the only one that knows what goes on in there and it only comes from the pure appreciation of a pretty lady with a pinch of the testosterone I was born with ;) )

RAT

krappold
03-28-2007, 02:40
I guess I must be just totally oblivious, but i have never noticed that men and women were too different from each other. And i have many guy friends and girl friends alike. trust me, im really not even trying to be pc. I mean, i always here from people that men are from mars and women are from venus, but I have never noticed that. I dunno, am i just really oblivious? Maybe its because im in the middle of 2 brothers, and a lot of my friends that are girls have brothers....then again that covers a lot of the population also. so why is it that i never noticed this huge difference?

whykickamoocow
03-28-2007, 05:51
have you ever noticed how more men tend to post in the sheilas section than women?

fonsie
03-28-2007, 06:19
Well I love it when I see women out there Hiking and thru hiking. Thats the kind of woman I would want to spend the rest of my life with. I just throw attitudes to the women that hang out in the bars drinking and going home with whoever. I see a woman out on the trail carrying her gear and doing more miles than me, I sollute. If any guy thinks he is better or thinks a woman's place is off the trail, then I hope a bear butt F%*&s you, LOL....

flyingduckmonster
03-29-2007, 19:42
I for one (and I am sure this applies to many of us here) would love to show our respect and hold the door open for the ladies if we could just find a non-privy door on the trail. :-?

This is not the sort of attitude that's needed at all. Treat women as equals; putting a group on a pedestal is just another way of being exclusionary.

Brrrb Oregon
03-29-2007, 21:15
This is not the sort of attitude that's needed at all. Treat women as equals; putting a group on a pedestal is just another way of being exclusionary.

Which is why you guys all post here as much as we do. :D

CaseyB
03-30-2007, 01:05
Removed by moderator

flyingduckmonster
03-30-2007, 11:00
I guess I must be just totally oblivious, but i have never noticed that men and women were too different from each other. And i have many guy friends and girl friends alike. trust me, im really not even trying to be pc. I mean, i always here from people that men are from mars and women are from venus, but I have never noticed that.

This is also my experience. We're more alike than different, in my opinion.

But then, I work in a tech field.

flyingduckmonster
03-30-2007, 11:01
Which is why you guys all post here as much as we do. :D

Don't let the name fool you; I'm female. :D

:banana

flyingduckmonster
03-30-2007, 11:02
Removed by moderator

I apologize. I really do. ... I just joined this forum yesterday, though, and I didn't realize this topic was dead.

CaseyB
03-30-2007, 11:05
All done in fun....ignore all past-midnight posts made by me

saimyoji
03-30-2007, 11:07
I apologize. I really do. ... I just joined this forum yesterday, though, and I didn't realize this topic was dead.

No topic unlocked is off limits. Don't apologize for adding to a discussion, even though it may be old, just because some people don't like it. You click on the link to read it, its your choice. You CHOOSE to respond. If you don't like it, there are other ways for you to spend your time. Don't be a bully. ;)

Toolshed
03-30-2007, 12:48
FDM, No apologies necessary BTW, this isn't what I would consider an old thread, though some new to the forum might feel if a thread has been around longer than they have it should remain in archives.
I think the thread starter (Camel Slap or jockey punch or whatever she goes by now) even jumped on someone for posting back in the beginning of December when there hadn't been any activity for 2 1/2 months, which was not called for either.
Threads are here for a purpose and sometimes it is nice to see a thread brought up again (Helps me to see if my viewpoints have changed....:sun )
:welcome

flyingduckmonster
03-30-2007, 13:29
Thanks, folks! As I poke around the forums, I'm finding that this is a really helpful and friendly group, by and large. I'm happy to have found it!

The Weasel
03-30-2007, 14:40
This is not the sort of attitude that's needed at all. Treat women as equals; putting a group on a pedestal is just another way of being exclusionary.

"Once again, "[t]he pedestal upon which women have been placed has . . . , upon closer inspection, been revealed as a cage."

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshal, Dothard vs. Rawlinson (1977), quoting from Sail'er Inn, Inc vs. Kirby, California Supreme Court (1971).

The Weasel

1Pint
03-30-2007, 15:00
Guys will be guys and say inappropriate things, but I for one (and I am sure this applies to many of us here) would love to show our respect and hold the door open for the ladies if we could just find a non-privy door on the trail. :-?


This is not the sort of attitude that's needed at all. Treat women as equals; putting a group on a pedestal is just another way of being exclusionary.

:welcome to WhiteBlaze FDM. I hope you enjoy a good discussion 'cause that seems to break out with regularity around here. :)

Common courtesies are not the problem. The campaign to remove such kindness from our daily lives is the problem. If more people held open doors and picked up dropped items for each other (male or female, young or old, disabled or not), the world would be a gentler place.

Treating people differently is also not the problem. It won't change anything for the better to pretend we are the same. We are different. Let's deal with it, work with it, and move on.

PS - I would love for any man to hold the privy door for me instead of being in there after he has stunk it up. ;)

flyingduckmonster
04-01-2007, 20:03
Welcome to WhiteBlaze FDM. I hope you enjoy a good discussion 'cause that seems to break out with regularity around here.

Thanks! And I do. Gender equality is one of my hot-button topics, I admit. But discussions, in general, are fun. :)


Common courtesies are not the problem. The campaign to remove such kindness from our daily lives is the problem. If more people held open doors and picked up dropped items for each other (male or female, young or old, disabled or not), the world would be a gentler place.

Don't get me wrong! I'm not against common courtesy; I hold doors for folks--male or female, young or old, disabled or not--all the time, and I thank people when they hold the door for me. I think that's basic decency.

I do think, however, that we are all equally deserving of common courtesies, and gender is not a good basis for deciding how to treat one another.


Treating people differently is also not the problem. It won't change anything for the better to pretend we are the same. We are different. Let's deal with it, work with it, and move on.

The argument "we are different, so deal with it" makes me very sad, probably in part because it was used to keep women from pursuing careers in math and science as recently as 20 years ago--more recently in some outlying regions of the country, I'm sure. I was told I'd be bad at math, "and that's just how it is," because I am female. Guess what, I'm not bad at math, and neither are most women.

An interesting fact from psychology/sociology: gender has been shown to be a poor predictor for how we will behave and what we are good at, but people see what they've been told they will see and ignore what they think of as "edge cases." (These "edge cases" are actually as much the norm as their preconceived notions. It's called "experimental bias.") The actual difference between men and women, averaged over the entire population, is really very small for any given ability (except, you know, the obvious things like childbirth). Basically, the findings were "gender CAN be used as an indicator (ex/ 'on average, men are stronger than women'), but there are always BETTER indicators available (ex/ 'body weight' or 'height' or 'age')."

We aren't really different. Not inherently. ... Who was it, earlier, who said "gender is a social construct"? (I might be misquoting.) But I completely agree, and so does social science.


PS - I would love for any man to hold the privy door for me instead of being in there after he has stunk it up. ;)

That's an entirely different topic. ;)

(My boyfriend, sitting here, is upset that I'm allowing someone to imply men are smellier than women without calling them on it. He's right, of course, but now he's ruined the funny. :D )

Tin Man
04-01-2007, 20:58
Don't get me wrong! I'm not against common courtesy; I hold doors for folks--male or female, young or old, disabled or not--all the time, and I thank people when they hold the door for me. I think that's basic decency.

I do think, however, that we are all equally deserving of common courtesies, and gender is not a good basis for deciding how to treat one another.

Quite so and I do not discriminate in my courtesies to strangers. For the people I know, that is a different story! For example, I will hold open the car door for my wife, but not my brother. I hope that doesn't make me a bad person. :D

dixicritter
04-01-2007, 21:47
Here's a good one for y'all... I do most of the driving when SGT Rock and I go places (provided it isn't dark).

1Pint
04-02-2007, 08:33
Thanks! And I do. Gender equality is one of my hot-button topics, I admit. But discussions, in general, are fun. :)

Cool. Glad you enjoy the discussion. I do too, but sometimes my strong opinions (and I have lots of them) can be too much. Oops.



Don't get me wrong! I'm not against common courtesy; I hold doors for folks--male or female, young or old, disabled or not--all the time, and I thank people when they hold the door for me. I think that's basic decency.
I do think, however, that we are all equally deserving of common courtesies, and gender is not a good basis for deciding how to treat one another.

We agree.


The argument "we are different, so deal with it" makes me very sad, probably in part because it was used to keep women from pursuing careers in math and science as recently as 20 years ago...<snip>...An interesting fact from psychology/sociology: gender has been shown to be a poor predictor for how we will behave and what we are good at....

Like you, this is an area I care about. I'm a sociology major from a liberal school and I've worked in the civil rights area for the last 7 years. And if that were not enough.... prior to that, I worked in a male-dominated job within a male-dominated environment.


We aren't really different. Not inherently. ... Who was it, earlier, who said "gender is a social construct"? (I might be misquoting.) But I completely agree, and so does social science.

Yes, gender may be a social construct and therefore artificial, but it exists, it's strong and it's OUR society and OUR social construct.

To bring this back to the trail and (I think?) the original thread - do I think there will be sexism on the trail? Of course. Why would the trail be insulated from all of our usual social problems? However, I'm not expecting it to be a big issue and in fact, I'm expecting it to be LESS of an issue on the trail. My stereotype about male hikers is that MORE of them than non-hiking men will judge a person based upon their abilities, not on silly appearances/gender/age/education/etc.

All I'm hoping when I get out on the trail is to be treated with normal, everyday respect. From the reports of a majority of women hikers, that's exactly what every hiker can expect to find on the trail. Works for me. :)

Frosty
04-02-2007, 11:34
We aren't really different. Not inherently. ... Who was it, earlier, who said "gender is a social construct"? (I might be misquoting.) But I completely agree, and so does social science.Aside from the fact that not many of us guys have given birth or suckled a baby, there are indeed differences.

Anytime you can objectively define a group of persons that include some but exclude others, there is a basis for that grouping. It doesn't matter it the groupings are male, female, black, white, tall, short, whatever.

Some attitudes/behaviors (urge to propagate vs urge to raise a family) may be hard-wired into our genetic codes, along with other gender based leanings. The difference between us and animals, or one of the differences, is that humans are civilized and rational, and can decide whether to follow the urges, whereas animals are ruled by species/gender instincts.

Social science does indeed recognize differences in genders and other groupings. In general, in dealing with groups, in this case genders, social science acknowledges that certain responses/attitudes are prevalent in that group. Men/women generally response differtently to threats and problem solving, the behaviors of first borns and younger siblings are generally different, especially when birth order reflects societal attitudes (behaviors of a first born male with a younger sister, for instance).

The problem isn't recognizing that there are differences, the problem is twofold:

One is ascribing those differences to every member of the group. That is a real danger. It is a fact that most thruhikers are white, for instance, but very wrong doubt a person can be a thruhiker because he is black. Transferring general group attributes to an indvidual to me is the root of racism and sexism. Each person is unique and must be regarded as such. Raisning a child I constantly fought the attitudes of my mother and mother-in-law who did not believe a man could raise a son as well as a woman. They were right in that woman generally do this task well, and that many men do not, but wrong to believe that every woman makes a better parent than any man.

The other is related to the first, but is really different. It is treating people differently because of their group. Just because there are differences between men and women does not make it okay to treat them differently. Someone already mentioned the putting on pedestal thing. As they said, more of a cage than anything else. There is nothing wrong with holding a door open for a woman. There is nothing wrong with holding a door open for a man. The problem (in my opinion) is when a man will open a door for a woman but not for a man. Why? It is polite to hold the door. Period. Chivalrous behavior falls into the pedestal trap in my opinion. It may sound nice, but it exposes faulty thinking.

(Courtship behavior does not fall under my definition of chivalry. Certainly men and women treat spouses and potential spouses differently. But that is not gender based. With same-sex couples, the behavior is the same. One's significant other is treated significantly different than any other person, of any gender/orientation. It is based on the person, not the gender.)

flyingduckmonster
04-02-2007, 13:04
Cool. Glad you enjoy the discussion. I do too, but sometimes my strong opinions (and I have lots of them) can be too much. Oops.

As you may have guessed, sometimes I have the same problem. ;)


To bring this back to the trail and (I think?) the original thread - do I think there will be sexism on the trail? Of course. Why would the trail be insulated from all of our usual social problems? However, I'm not expecting it to be a big issue and in fact, I'm expecting it to be LESS of an issue on the trail. My stereotype about male hikers is that MORE of them than non-hiking men will judge a person based upon their abilities, not on silly appearances/gender/age/education/etc.

All I'm hoping when I get out on the trail is to be treated with normal, everyday respect. From the reports of a majority of women hikers, that's exactly what every hiker can expect to find on the trail. Works for me. :)

This is also my expectation. I'm not worried about encountering sexism, beyond the general societal baseline--in fact, I'm kind of expecting there to be less than in other places, like you say. I feel like the qualities required for taking on something like a thru-hike are good indicators of a generally progressive outlook, in general. (And yeah, there are neanderthals of both genders out there, in any group. They do not concern me overmuch.)

I'm really looking forward to getting to know/becoming part of the AT hiking community. From everything I hear--and what I see on this forum--it's a good group that one should be proud to be a member of.

(And I hope my ranting about gender differences--which was absolutely a tangent--did not make anyone think I felt otherwise.)

And now, because we loves it so, a dancing banana: :banana

flyingduckmonster
04-02-2007, 13:13
Sometimes ...


Some attitudes/behaviors (urge to propagate vs urge to raise a family) may be hard-wired into our genetic codes, along with other gender based leanings.

I disagreed with things you'd said in this post. But mostly...


The problem ... is twofold:

One is ascribing those differences to every member of the group. That is a real danger. ...

The other is related to the first, but is really different. It is treating people differently because of their group. Just because there are differences between men and women does not make it okay to treat them differently. Someone already mentioned the putting on pedestal thing. As they said, more of a cage than anything else. There is nothing wrong with holding a door open for a woman. There is nothing wrong with holding a door open for a man. The problem (in my opinion) is when a man will open a door for a woman but not for a man. Why? It is polite to hold the door. Period. Chivalrous behavior falls into the pedestal trap in my opinion. It may sound nice, but it exposes faulty thinking.

... Mostly, I agreed wholeheartedly. I really couldn't have put this better, myself.

Ultimately, disagreeing about the extent of our differences isn't a big deal, as long as we agree that it shouldn't result in us treating one another differently because of them.

I feel that understanding has been reached, and I am pleased.


(Courtship behavior does not fall under my definition of chivalry. Certainly men and women treat spouses and potential spouses differently. But that is not gender based. With same-sex couples, the behavior is the same. One's significant other is treated significantly different than any other person, of any gender/orientation. It is based on the person, not the gender.)

Yeah, I agree. People who really get it right, in my opinion, treat their SO like a person--an equal--but like a very, very special-to-them person. Preferences there might vary significantly from my own, of course.

But I digress. :o

navy111588
04-02-2007, 13:57
i am a male hiker and i do respect the woman on the trail. i always thought the the trail was a place that this kinda thing was actually limited, i could be wrong though, anyway my girlfriend i going on a long section hike with me soon and she was just worried about harrasment from people who would come to the trail for ''other'' reasons. she is afraid that it is an ideal place for a sex offender. i dont know if this is true but i would never dismiss this kind of thing. it disgusting that some people would try to ruin someone's good time just to fill some kind of void they have. but the at is definatly for women as much as men

dixicritter
04-02-2007, 14:32
I tend to believe that it all depends on how the female portrays herself honestly. OK ladies flame me if ya want to, but if we go out there with this "oh poor helpless me" attitude or whatever, then we are just asking for the testosterone driven guys to sniff us out.

Also, playing the victim all the time just really crawls all over me. Have the guts to stand up for yourselves ladies. We don't NEED a man to protect us. Yes I know easy for me to say, I have SGT Rock by my side whenever I want right? Well guess what... that's not always the case. As a matter of fact, over the last 4 years especially (since the war started) we've spent two full years apart. Oh and that's not counting the time he's spent out of town stateside in between tours overseas.

So... IF I had to wait on him to protect me from the big bad world, I'd never leave my damn house.

The hikers that I've met are some of the nicest folks I'd ever want to be around to be perfectly honest with you. I'd trust my children with many of them, and I don't trust many folks with my children.

Are there "bad apples" out there? Oh I'm absolutely certain there are! I'm no fool! I just think that folks are getting their panties all in wad over something that is really a very small issue, if an issue at all really. However, this is just my opinion based on my experiences with the folks that I have personally met and enjoyed the company of. Your hiking mileage may vary vastly.

Brrrb Oregon
04-02-2007, 16:12
Transferring general group attributes to an indvidual to me is the root of racism and sexism. Each person is unique and must be regarded as such. Raisning a child I constantly fought the attitudes of my mother and mother-in-law who did not believe a man could raise a son as well as a woman. They were right in that woman generally do this task well, and that many men do not, but wrong to believe that every woman makes a better parent than any man.

Yes. The thing is, recognizing the logical fallacy of treating one member of a group as if they were automatically the average of the sum characteristics of their group exposes the fact that considering "group" characteristics is not necessary unless you are in fact trying to make a very rough estimate concerning the behavior of a group.

For instance, if I were planning some sort of a catered event, I would be interested in the rough group that was coming, and not just the number. Firefighters? More food. Women? Less food. Over eighty years old? Less food. Between 15 and 25? More food. Just finished exercising? Lots more food. That doesn't mean I would be shocked to see some sedentary woman from some stereotypically "female" job like administration piling her plate up or that I would automatically assume that a male firefighter is going to clean out the buffet if we let him go first.


The other is related to the first, but is really different. It is treating people differently because of their group. Just because there are differences between men and women does not make it okay to treat them differently. Someone already mentioned the putting on pedestal thing. As they said, more of a cage than anything else. There is nothing wrong with holding a door open for a woman. There is nothing wrong with holding a door open for a man. The problem (in my opinion) is when a man will open a door for a woman but not for a man. Why? It is polite to hold the door. Period. Chivalrous behavior falls into the pedestal trap in my opinion. It may sound nice, but it exposes faulty thinking.

Likewise, you wouldn't just automatically assume that a white male in a nice suit is someone you should allow to come into your home to case the place, or that a black guy in ratty clothes walking by the front of your house is a cause for concern. There are many crooks out there that make their living by defying expectations, and many more innocent people out there who suffer because so many other people won't give them the chance to.

That is the thing. Before you make gross generalizations, you need to ask yourself if they need to be made in the first place. If not, reserve judgement and be ready to be surprised.

As for the doors, just use common sense. If someone is in high heels, it is well to rush ahead to open the door for him. It is difficult to open a heavy door gracefully in those things. I'm sure he will be grateful.


(Courtship behavior does not fall under my definition of chivalry. Certainly men and women treat spouses and potential spouses differently. But that is not gender based. With same-sex couples, the behavior is the same. One's significant other is treated significantly different than any other person, of any gender/orientation. It is based on the person, not the gender.)

This is the third card, that of sexuality. People do not lay their sexuality aside at the door. Very many of us, consciously or unconsciously, treat other people differently not based on their gender, but based on whether they are judged to be attractive or unattractive and whether they are potential rivals or potential objects of interest, not to mention what kind of a return opinon they seem to have. In other words, they don't just treat men differently than women, but older women differently than younger, old guys differently than the young ones, and the flirty or condescending far differently than the blithely uninterested. This, combined with a stubborn inability to read social cues (usually rooted in denial), often gives rise to some truly offensive behavior. Nobody wants to be treated like chopped liver, let alone a side of meat.

This is particularly true of those who are both sexually ambitious and sexually insecure, but that does not mean that only the weak and unhealthy carry these thoughts and behaviors. Hormones are powerful things, and they do not necessarily send a memorandum to the brain when they spring into operation.....except, perhaps a note to put up the sign that says, "Gone Fishing." :D

peanuts
04-02-2007, 17:35
finally, the voice of REASON, dixiecritter!!!!

dixicritter
04-02-2007, 18:01
finally, the voice of REASON, dixiecritter!!!!

Just calling it like I see it is all.

Another thing I've noticed is this thread has really zigged and zagged off trail too. I don't know of many car doors or doors period that need to be held open on the trail, folks. Now if someone wants to keep those branches from smacking me in the face while I watch where I'm planting my foot so I don't fall on my butt that would be a nice thing, but still not necessary.

I even mentioned something about that to SGT Rock and the boys on our last hike. Their solution was for me to tilt my head and look cross-eyed. That was maybe I'd be able to see both my feet and the branch about to smack my in the face. LOL. By the way... it didn't work. ;)

Hikerhead
04-02-2007, 18:21
Here's a good one for y'all... I do most of the driving when SGT Rock and I go places (provided it isn't dark).

That's when/if he gives you permission. <duck> :D

Brrrb Oregon
04-02-2007, 18:48
I don't know of many car doors or doors period that need to be held open on the trail, folks.

Nobody needs to have the privy door opened for them, but it isn't uncommon to need someone--anyone!--to hold the door CLOSED!!! :o

Except that perhaps more men than women have little or no modesty left when it comes to relieving themselves out near the middle of nowhere, I would think that the hope one might find such a kind soul is not gender-based. :D

Vi+
04-02-2007, 18:54
Has a definition of “sexism” been developed on this thread which is all inclusive, and with which everyone agrees?

Does anyone know of a complete definition anywhere else?

dixicritter
04-02-2007, 21:04
Has a definition of “sexism” been developed on this thread which is all inclusive, and with which everyone agrees?

Does anyone know of a complete definition anywhere else?

I don't know if there's really been an agreed upon definition on this thread or not. I honestly can't remember.

Here's one I found on Answers.com


sex·ism (sĕk'sĭz'əm)
n.
1. Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.
2. Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.


It can be found here... http://www.answers.com/topic/sexism

flyingduckmonster
04-03-2007, 10:47
Has a definition of “sexism” been developed on this thread which is all inclusive, and with which everyone agrees?

One hasn't been developed on this thread, no. My working definition includes all gender-based preconceptions and actions, not just those that demean females. (There's a lot of negativity about men out there, too.)

When I want to specify which kind of sexism I mean, I will tend to use the word "misogyny" or "misandry."

Programbo
04-03-2007, 22:33
LOL..I have no input on this topic at the moment but I just thought of my 16 year old niece and how she defines any stereotypical dainty girl as a "sissy girl".....I don`t know if the AT is the proper place for traditional masculine/feminine roles and a hiker should be a hiker (Aside from some obvious privacy matters at the right time)

Brrrb Oregon
04-05-2007, 02:58
LOL..I have no input on this topic at the moment but I just thought of my 16 year old niece and how she defines any stereotypical dainty girl as a "sissy girl".....I don`t know if the AT is the proper place for traditional masculine/feminine roles and a hiker should be a hiker (Aside from some obvious privacy matters at the right time)

The thing is, the OP has a dainty physical build, likes to wear hiking skirts and a pink pack, dyes her hair "fun colors", and so on. She wants to dress according to a feminine role, to the extent that she so chooses, without some idiot thinking that this gives him the right to make rude remarks about topics from her competence to her sexual orientation, possibly because she doesn't fill out his stereotypical image of attractive women by falling into his long, knuckle-dragging arms.

Although some of us have pointed out that looking vaguely female is what some guys consider "encouragement", it has been the consensus that nobody has any right whatsoever to be rude, on the trail or off....and the few comments she did allude to went beyond rude in any setting, particularly if uttered anywhere in the vicinity of a stranger. She did not particularly like advice about how to "fly under radar", but since (in retrospect) that would involve dressing as badly as I do and more or less giving the impression that one has successfully survived growing up with six brothers who all have valid hunting licenses and load their own shot, one can hardly blame her for that.

Cautionary note: this is my take on her posts, and so take them with that grain of salt. You can look at #37 and #67 to get a better idea of a few of the things she actually wrote, but there are quite a few clarifying posts besides that.

Rhino-lfl
04-05-2007, 15:56
Ah...novel concept alert... how about us GUYS just read and learn from the thread, and let the WOMEN have the actual discussion. This has turned into a sausage test in a forum where GUYS should be keeping their traps shut.

Rhino-lfl
04-05-2007, 15:57
Ah...novel concept alert... how about us GUYS just read and learn from the thread, and let the WOMEN have the actual discussion. This has turned into a sausage fest in a forum where GUYS should be keeping their traps shut.

I meant to say fest ... not test.

Brrrb Oregon
04-05-2007, 17:02
Ah...novel concept alert... how about us GUYS just read and learn from the thread, and let the WOMEN have the actual discussion. This has turned into a sausage fest in a forum where GUYS should be keeping their traps shut.


Don't let the name fool you; I'm female.

And I'm female, and dixiecritter, too.... we just kind of "fly under the radar", I guess. ;)

I don't know if any of the other females have a problem with guys chiming in, but I don't. I know this is a female forum, but it is a bit rough to ask the supposed topic of conversation to stay out of it.

I always thought of the forum heading as more of a "female topics being discussed frankly, thank you very much, so don't say we didn't warn you". I've had the experience of guys walking in on those in real time and seeing by the looks on their faces that warning would have been much appreciated. IOW, a lot of guys do not want to accidentally find out what kind of new gear a "diva cup" is!

Otherwise, wouldn't it be sexist that there isn't a "men's only" forum? As it is, we women have heard men talk about "male" problems as if the whole world cares for so long that we are used to it by now!

When you guys start making us uncomfortable by legitimately talking about your particular problems, we'll demand you get your own forum for that stuff, too. :rolleyes: ;) :p

Pennsylvania Rose
04-05-2007, 18:55
I didn't read this discussion when it first started. Kind of glad I didn't because I'd have put my foot in my mouth a long time ago. Let me start out by saying that comments that the original poster had directed towards her in one of the incidents she reported were totally inappropriate in any context. And to answer her original question, most men on the trail are not like the a**es she ran into.

However, two things kept crossing my mind. First, if one dresses/acts/appears different from the group norm, it will be commented on. That doesn't mean the comments are OK, just that they should be expected and dealt with in whatever manner the recipient feels most comfortable doing. The best way is one that doesn't make the recipient look like a jerk, too.

The other thought I had is that too many people think that they get picked on because of the group that they belong to, rather than looking at their own actions. For example, in one of my high school classes there is a group of six girls who talk loudly about inappropriate topics while I'm teaching. When they're seated away from each other they just yell across the room whenever the spirit moves them. They behave like this in all of their classes and take daily trips to the the office. Instead of changing their behavior, these kids and their parents say we teachers pick on them because they're black. Never mind that our "minority" population at the school is over 50%;that 95% of kids, whether black, white, Hispanic, or Asian, never get in trouble; and these girls disrupt entire class periods; we must singling out this group because of the color of their skin.

Unfortunately, I've seen too many women use this same faulty reasoning. Not all stupid comments are directed at you because you're a woman. Some guys would say equally boorish things to whoever came across their path (especially guys like the ones who wouldn't share the shelter). Other women are too quick to get bent out of shape when they perceive a man is treating them like they're inferior. Maybe the guy talks to everyone like he/she is an idiot; or he calls all women sweetie out of habit; or he's a total moron who thinks he's God's gift to women; or he's offering to do something nice (like get water or help set up a tent) because he's a polite guy and would offer the same to anyone. For example, I just got back from a 5 day trip in the Smokies with my 13, 14, and 15 year old kids. Our 1st day out we started late and the hike was all uphill to Gregory Bald campsite. It was just about dark when we got there. The only other hiker was a guy with a hammock, who I never did say more than "hi, where's the water" to because we were tired and trying to get set up before it got completely dark and the rain started. The next morning the other hiker stopped by our tent on the way out and asked if we were all OK. Was it because I'm a woman? Because I had kids with me? Because I'm not in great shape and may have given myself a heart attack coming up the mountain? Because the Target tent that was the only 4 person shelter I could afford was a piece of crap so he (being an elite hammock hanger :)) thought we might have been drenched by the storm? Because he was just a nice guy who would check on anyone as he left camp? I'll never know his reasoning - it was probably a combination of all the above - but several women I know would automatically assume either 1) he thinks a woman couldn't take care of herself and was being condescending, or 2) he was hitting on her so she better get rid of him asap. Then they'd get themselves all worked up about sexism and go on to me forever about how all men are pigs and why couldn't they just meet one nice guy (all the women I speak of are either single or treat their husbands so badly I feel bad for the guy)... This isn't the same as the "blame the victim" mentality, so don't flame me. It's about how people's assumptions about themselves and others color their view of reality. Now I've gone on too long so I'll sign off.

Rosie

Frosty
04-05-2007, 19:44
Some attitudes/behaviors (urge to propagate vs urge to raise a family) may be hard-wired into our genetic codes, along with other gender based leanings.



Sometimes ...
I disagreed with things you'd said in this post.

Well, note that I did say "may" be hard-wired.

Let me show what I meant. In my opinion, the differences between the way men and women shop today is based on lessons learned back in the cave-dweller days. Here are my thoughts.

Cave men hunted. They lay in wait for an antelope to come by. They sometimes went alone, sometimes in groups, but when in a group, they did not talk to each other. Why? Because to talk was to ruin the hunt. The antelope had to pass close by, within spear range. Talking would frighten the antelope away, and so no talking. Cave men spent their days alone or with other men, but without a lot of chatting. Sound familiar?

Cave women were gatherers. They gathered berries. They went in groups but talked all the time to each other. Talking did not ruin their hunt; talking made it successful. Picture several cave women in a berry patch. "These berries suck. "Come over here, then, the berries over here are great." Communication not only didn't ruin the hunt, communication was vital to its success. Further, they needn't pick and keep the first berries they found. If they filled there skins with berries and on the way home, found a berry patch with bigger and sweeter berries, it wa a simple matter to dump the small berries and pick the big sweet ones to bring back to the cave.

Now picture men and women shopping today. A man needs a shirt. He goes to a store that sells shirts, finds one in about two minutes, buys it and comes home. This harks back to antelope hunting days. When an antelope walked by, you didn't wait for a better antelope, or think maybe you'd try somewhere else, you threw the damn spear at the first acceptable antelope that walked by. Men today shop exactly like cave men hunted.

A woman needs a blouse. Does she go to one store alone and buy the first blouse she sees? Of course not. She goes shopping with a friend or two, and makes it a social event. She looks at a lot of blouses, tries several on, goes to one or two other stores until she finds the blouse she wants. Women today shop the way cave women gathered berries.

This is what I mean by hard-wired. Lessons learned for basic survival remain locked in our group conscience. We are more aware now than then, and can choose to do otherwise, but generally speaking, the same basic urges drive us.

This I think is a little similar to sex, to the urge to procreate and the urge to raise young. Different instincts were necessary for each sex if fledgling human race were to survive. (I don't think I will go into that here, though. I don't want to start an argument. Just think for a few seconds before discarding the idea.)

But think about this concept of base instincts and civilization. Men who give in to basic instincts about sex/procreation as though ruled by them are called animals. Men who do not give in to base instincts, but make rational decisions, thoughtful about sex/procreation are called gentlemen.

Sorry for clogging up the women's forum. I do find this topic fascinating.

flyingduckmonster
04-08-2007, 12:19
Evolutionary psychology is bunk. It's taking social behavior exhibited by some people of both genders--"most" would be a huge stretch--and trying to come up with explanations for it. These explanations aren't based on actual, you know, evidence, but just on guesses. (There's a lot of question about the accuracy of our views of what cave-people did and didn't do. We've just kind of assumed, and then we made up evolutionary psychology based on our assumptions. It only sounds so compelling because it is based on our pre-conceived notions.)

Evolutionary psychology is not scientific, because there are no falsifiable hypotheses. It can never be proved right or wrong. Citing it as though it shows anything at all is a logical fallacy.

redrider
04-15-2007, 18:24
I recently hiked the Georgia portion of the AT by myself. I was concerned about being a woman on the trail alone. I must say I was pleasantly surprised. I met a couple of great women on the trail but mostly men and all of them were great not just to the women but also to each other. I was impressed at how quickly we became a family, looking after each other. It was an amazing experience.:sun

SGT Rock
04-15-2007, 18:42
Yea, the Internet can do that - make things seem worse than they really are.

Congratulations on having a good hike. Keep on pickin' 'em up and puttin' 'em down.