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briarpatch
09-22-2006, 14:53
Here's a link to an article on some dayhikers who found out the hard way what Mount Washington is capable of:

http://www.wmur.com/news/9904905/detail.html#

Tinker
09-22-2006, 15:02
Eh?

People who don't learn from other's mistakes are bound to follow in their footsteps.

Mt. Washington may not be a huge mountain, but it is much higher than the surrounding area, and the footpaths are generally pretty rugged.

And then there's that FAMOUS weather.

No excuse for any of it.

Still, I hope the guy survives.

Shutterbug
09-22-2006, 16:21
Here's a link to an article on some dayhikers who found out the hard way what Mount Washington is capable of:

http://www.wmur.com/news/9904905/detail.html#

I don't understand the route they were taking. The report said that they left from Pinkham's Notch. Most people who climb from Pinkham's Notch take Tuckerman's Rivine; however, the report also said that someone drove a car back to where the hikers were. TheTuckerman's Rivine trail doesn't reach the road until the edge of the parking lot at the summit. They must have taken another trail from Pinkham's Notch.

Lone Wolf
09-22-2006, 16:41
Probably the AT to the auto road.

lwarfi
09-22-2006, 16:45
The Manchester Union leader article (http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Hikers+caught+unprepared+on+ Mount+Washington&articleId=406a1d76-ea88-4c68-8cd0-7fa9d15fb0eb)has a couple more details.

Do you think they thought those signs about being prepared for weather didn't apply to them?

Lone Wolf
09-22-2006, 16:49
They're from Queebeck. Probably can't read English.

icemanat95
09-22-2006, 16:51
There are a number of routes that cross over the Auto Road, some down low, others fairly high up. I'm thinking that they may either have managed to struggle up the Huntington Ravine trail (a serious undertaking in bad weather) and found the road just past the junction with the Alpine Garden. Or they may have been intending to hike Nelson Crag Trail which comes near the road at the 2 mile post and at the intersection with Huntington Ravine trail.

My thinking is that they got most of the way up before getting into trouble, which is why they opted to seek shelter up instead of down. I'm wondering though why they didn't seek refuge in the observatory. It is manned year round after all, and heated.

Darwin again
09-22-2006, 16:53
Darwin Award candidates.

MattC
09-22-2006, 17:02
They're from Queebeck. Probably can't read English.

they all speak english.

icemanat95
09-22-2006, 17:13
OK, judging by the Manchester Union Leader article I was right. Perhaps this early in the season they don't man the Observatory overnight?

The Old Fhart
09-22-2006, 17:25
I don't understand the route they were taking. The report said that they left from Pinkham's Notch. Most people who climb from Pinkham's Notch take Tuckerman's Rivine; however, the report also said that someone drove a car back to where the hikers were. TheTuckerman's Rivine trail doesn't reach the road until the edge of the parking lot at the summit. They must have taken another trail from Pinkham's Notch.Like Lone Wolf said they could have left Pinkham taking the A.T. (the Old Jackson Road) and hit the Auto Road 2 miles from the base but more likely they took the Tuckerman Ravine trail. There are other trails off either of these routes that would hit the Auto Road at 5+ , 6 , 6.5, and 7 miles from the base. It is 7.6 miles to the summit by road.

This unfortunate incident does show the need to be prepared, carry map and compass, and know escape routes. One of the first rules of climbing is if the weather is bad, or if you are unprepared for the conditions you meet, go down, don't continue higher where the conditions will only be worse. Also the Stage Office that they broke into for shelter is unmanned but the heated summit building is a flat couple of hundred yards away and is staffed 24/7 by the State Park and Observatory who have emergency gear and training. In whiteout conditions you can't see that far but if they had knowledge of the summit this might have helped what may be a tragic outcome.

The Old Fhart
09-22-2006, 17:34
Icemanat95-"OK, judging by the Manchester Union Leader article I was right. Perhaps this early in the season they don't man the Observatory overnight?"Other than when the fire burnd the generator building a few years ago, the Observatory has a continual presence on the summit since 1934, I believe.

The Union Leader did say: "State park personnel on the summit were alerted..." If Mike was there he is the #1 S&R person in the entire area.

Lone Wolf
09-22-2006, 21:17
they all speak english.
Wrong. I lived 3 miles from the Kweebeck border for 10 winters working at Jay Peak Ski Resort. Plenty of them frogs spoke no Engley.

SavageLlama
09-23-2006, 02:36
Thru-hiking the Long Trail I saw plenty of completely unprepared french canadian hikers. I think Canada needs to sponsor a national hiker stupidity awareness campaign.

MedicineMan
09-23-2006, 03:24
I laughed so hard at that one my rib bone almost broke.

TJ aka Teej
09-23-2006, 08:02
The inability to think clearly is the sympton of hypothermia that leads most often to death. This time of year up here in New England all hikers should watch each other for the "umbles". The Quebecer's poor planning got them into trouble, but the 'stupid' behavior afterwards sounds like impaired judgement to me.

SGT Rock
09-23-2006, 08:37
Anyhow, I still feel for them. Must suck freezing to death.

hikerjohnd
09-23-2006, 08:39
The Quebecer's poor planning got them into trouble, but the 'stupid' behavior afterwards sounds like impaired judgement to me.

Once I read they went back up the mtn, I thought impaired judgement too. I think I have experieced a mild case of hypothermia once - Looking back on the decisions we made (lost, hiking at 2AM, deciding to take a shortcut and we had no idea where we were to begin with) if we had not made it back to the truck I am sure we would be dead.

hiker33
09-23-2006, 11:20
There's no need to speculate on the route taken by these clowns as the video states that they used the Nelson Crag Trail. This trail briefly joins the auto road and leaves it again a mile or two below the summit. The car thief probably drove to this point to pick up the others.

It's a wonder that more people don't die on the mountain. One Labor Day weekend years ago I set out to climb via the Tuckerman Ravine Trail, Camel Trail, and the Davis/Crawford Paths. After I had crested the headwall a storm came out of nowhere. Within 30 minutes the weather changed from sunny and upper fifties to snow and freezing rain with lightning and 35 degrees. I was on the Camel Trail so I rode it out at Lakes of the Clouds Hut. I was less than a quarter mile away when it hit but it was an ordeal getting there on the icy rocks. During the next hour people kept dragging in, many wearing nothing but wet shorts and t-shirts. I was fully prepared with warm clothing and raingear but I was one of the few. The unprepared folks were just plain lucky.

minnesotasmith
09-23-2006, 12:45
I met a French Canadian couple (M & F, about age 30) headed southbound between Full Goose and Carlo Col shelters a few nights ago that thought they could be certain of hiking the 4.4 miles in 2.5 hours near dusk, which (having just done it) I thought imprudent and uncertain. I pulled out my Nat'l Geographic map (which shows info the ATC/local club maps don't), and showed them a water source down the 1st Wright trail, and told them about camping possibilities I'd seen, to their effusive gratitude.

Doctari
09-23-2006, 13:11
Do you think they thought those signs about being prepared for weather didn't apply to them?


Yes, just like the people who routenly: park in handicaped spaces then jog into the store, go in the wrong way where signs say in huge letters "DO NOT ENTER", remove safety guards from dangerous machenery, climb over safety fences & into the props of plains, race trains to crossings, etc.


Hate to see anyone hurt or dead, but as mentioned before, these people are trying to win a Darwin Award.

I imagine the conversation at trail head, in front of the big warning sign went something like this:

DAW #1: Sign says "bad weather can happen at any time, be prepared" wonder what that means.

DAW #2: Don't mean nothin, that's for (hikers, campers, Mt climbers, etc.) not us. Besides look how nice it is, sunny, not a cloud in the sky.

DAW #3, & 4: Yea, nice day, shut up.

DAW #1: Yea, you are right, lets walk.

Then they all were "surprised" when the weather changed. I bet $0.05 that when it's all said & done the 4 say " someone should have warned us better." Not a chance in H*** they say "We messed up, its all our fault". Likely they try to sue someone for their F. up.


DAW = Darwin Award Winner

Just my humble opinion.

Doctari.

STEVEM
09-23-2006, 13:44
There's no need to speculate on the route taken by these clowns as the video states that they used the Nelson Crag Trail. This trail briefly joins the auto road and leaves it again a mile or two below the summit. The car thief probably drove to this point to pick up the others.

It's a wonder that more people don't die on the mountain. One Labor Day weekend years ago I set out to climb via the Tuckerman Ravine Trail, Camel Trail, and the Davis/Crawford Paths. After I had crested the headwall a storm came out of nowhere. Within 30 minutes the weather changed from sunny and upper fifties to snow and freezing rain with lightning and 35 degrees. I was on the Camel Trail so I rode it out at Lakes of the Clouds Hut. I was less than a quarter mile away when it hit but it was an ordeal getting there on the icy rocks. During the next hour people kept dragging in, many wearing nothing but wet shorts and t-shirts. I was fully prepared with warm clothing and raingear but I was one of the few. The unprepared folks were just plain lucky.

Several years ago, I climbed Slide Mtn. in the Catskills in mid November. At +-4200 feet,Slide is small by New England standards. Yet, conditions went from 60 F with no wind at the trailhead to 30 F with 8" of new snow and 40mph winds with freezing fog near the summit. I met many hikers near the summit and on my way down wearing summer clothing and footware. I saw none who turned back prior to the summit clearing though that would have been prudent given the conditions.

In addition to lack of judgement due to hypothermia, the need to accomplish the goal (I.E. reach the summit) also seems to impair the decision making process.

MOWGLI
09-23-2006, 14:36
Must suck freezing to death.


It's actually supposed to be a fairly peaceful way to die. Although I'd choose "natural causes" over hypothermia every day of the week.

I hope the hiker survives.

Brrrb Oregon
09-23-2006, 20:16
It's actually supposed to be a fairly peaceful way to die.

Well, yeah....if you're ready to die. If you're not ready to die, there isn't a peaceful way to do it.

ed bell
09-23-2006, 20:30
Well, yeah....if you're ready to die. If you're not ready to die, there isn't a peaceful way to do it.The cold will convince your mind of strange things whether you are ready or not, but I have never found myself that far in the danger zone. Other than that I'm with you Brrrb.:sun

MOWGLI
09-23-2006, 21:24
Well, yeah....if you're ready to die. If you're not ready to die, there isn't a peaceful way to do it.

Here's a story (http://outside.away.com/magazine/200006/200006waterman1.html) about someone who froze to death. Fewer people have done more things for trails and wild places. Especially in New England.

illusionistG
09-23-2006, 22:24
They ascended via the Huntington Ravine Trail which fed them onto Nelson Crag which runs next to the Auto Rd at this point. I'm the trail maintainer for Huntington Ravine trail and it is known as the most dangerous trail in the Whites due to the exact reasons this group fell into. Gradual climb up Tuckerman's Ravine trail, more ascent work including rock scrambling once getting on Huntington Ravine Trail, then meeting the headwall. Knowing the trail and the conditions that particular day, by the time they reached the headwall (yup the same headwall quite a few Mt Everest and K2 teams train on in winter to prep for the May Himalaya season) they probably already were exhausted and had the initial (or maybe full blown stages of Hypothermia.) If they had used common sense and planned ahead they would have known the Harvard Club has a camp about .8 miles away from the headwall. They could have holed up, get some warmth, recoup, and formed a plan. Plus at the base of the headwall is a First Aid Cache they walked right by. Believe me they were very lucky.

illusionistG
09-23-2006, 22:55
Additional info I heard was they had been drinking as well (probably assisting in their bad judgments they made), and rumor has it they left a full twelve pack of Molsons on the Huntington Ravine Trail. I need to get up there to carry out what they carried in (fluid less of course). You know AMC demands clean trails !!!!!

I still don't know how I'm going to explain this to my boss here in Baghdad that I need to leave on an immediate flight to CONUS to clean a national forest trail.

DawnTreader
09-24-2006, 00:13
not the first time, won't be the last time

Tamarack
09-24-2006, 01:16
they all speak english.

NO they don't it is mandated that all english speaking Canadian children learn french from Kindergarden/Gr1. up to Gr9. However it is not mandated that all french speaking Canadian children growing up in Quebec learn english. There is a massive problem with many of the Canadians and Quebecquois (kay-bek-wa-ssssss) ITs just soo bad. There's been what 3 reforendums about whether or not Quebec should stay with Canada. So far it hasn't separated yet.


Wrong. I lived 3 miles from the Kweebeck border for 10 winters working at Jay Peak Ski Resort. Plenty of them frogs spoke no Engley.

Exaclty as for reasons stated above. But yet it is mandated that all Canadian cities regardless of location, once they reach a certain size (between 250,000 people and 330,000) the city has to change all road signs from English to bilingual English/french. For this reason they are just spoiled and want to be pampered to. When I worked in gas station the Quebecquois were the worst. They expected me to tell them in french how much they owed me, like hello I dont remember much of my french all those years ago except for the bad words. Remember the bad ice storm way back when? I think that was '99 '00 or somthing like that. The Canadian army had to go and help people who were stranded. Montreal was powerless for weeks. a massive city like Montreal powerless for *weeks*. Those hikers really should have known better.


Thru-hiking the Long Trail I saw plenty of completely unprepared french canadian hikers. I think Canada needs to sponsor a national hiker stupidity awareness campaign.

:eek: oh come eh, its just the Qubecquois eh. dude don't stereotype thats just nasty eh, its not the whole country you know eh. We dont all live in igloos eh, get your duct tape out eh get your touque on straight eh, and give your head a shake eh. and while your at it bring up some cocaine and I'll send you some marjuana LOL ;) 30gm is legal in Ontario eh. So's going topless for women in public eh. although I wouldnt recommend it eh going topless this time of year eh. We're not all a few short from a full 2-4 eh. but you know eh there are a few exceptions eh like the gals at Timmies who dont know what a double double is. or the american tourists who cant figure out the difference between a loonie and a twoonie, or wonder why they pay with american and get Canadian change back


The inability to think clearly is the sympton of hypothermia that leads most often to death. This time of year up here in New England all hikers should watch each other for the "umbles". The Quebecer's poor planning got them into trouble, but the 'stupid' behavior afterwards sounds like impaired judgement to me.

Being one who has had hypothermia, not severe but borderline the cold does affect your judgement more than you may think. Myself and my friends were to the point of udder stupidity with the giggles/laughing fits added. What were we laughing at? I think it was just a leaf falling or something but it was funny at the time, that whole two days are a bit of a blur. I remember trying to read a childrens book and my dislexia that usually only kicks in when I'm really really tired, was soo bad I couldnt read the book, I just had to guess and make it up.


It's actually supposed to be a fairly peaceful way to die. Although I'd choose "natural causes" over hypothermia every day of the week. I hope the hiker survives.

Hypothermia is nasty but seeing people die a long slow 'natural' death I think they're both bad. I do not want to end up that way. If I have a choice, please send me sky diving over the ocean without a parachute, or how about bungie jumping blind folded without a bungie. Just me. Quality is more important than Quantity.

All in all I do hope that the Quebecquois makes it without any permanent damage done. Just life lessons learned.

The proud patriotic Canadian who's working in the States temp to get experience till the nursing shortage finally migrates north.

Tamarack
09-24-2006, 05:39
I just googled the Quebec hiker hypothermia and came up with this. one article dated Thursday says; officials listed his condition as grave
Another article from Friday morning says; The hiker is in serious condition.
One would assume that he has improved. I think the rating is Grave(deaths door), critical, serious, stable and then discharged home. I was not able to find any new information dated saturday or sunday.

Heater
09-24-2006, 07:15
I just googled the Quebec hiker hypothermia and came up with this. one article dated Thursday says; officials listed his condition as grave
Another article from Friday morning says; The hiker is in serious condition.
One would assume that he has improved. I think the rating is Grave(deaths door), critical, serious, stable and then discharged home. I was not able to find any new information dated saturday or sunday.

Yeppers! mebbe he be takin' suma dat der sperience an be learnin suma Kewbeckwazis a thing er two 'bout how cold it kin get up in dem thar mountains, eh?

:D

woodsy
09-24-2006, 08:01
Anyhow, I still feel for them. Must suck freezing to death.

You would think freezing to death would suck but not many years ago on this same mountain a man deliberately ended his life by freezing to death. Can't remember which trail he was found on but a suicide note was with him.

This may sound odd but I've heard from other mountaineers that it(freezing to death)is not all that bad a way to go. After the shivering stops and body begins shutting down, you become comfortably numb.

Topcat
09-24-2006, 08:48
Here's a story (http://outside.away.com/magazine/200006/200006waterman1.html) about someone who froze to death. Fewer people have done more things for trails and wild places. Especially in New England.

that is a very interesting story, thanks for the link.

MOWGLI
09-24-2006, 09:13
You would think freezing to death would suck but not many years ago on this same mountain a man deliberately ended his life by freezing to death. Can't remember which trail he was found on but a suicide note was with him.


The story you're referring to (I think) can be found in the link in post #27. Only it wasn't the same mountain.

Old Hillwalker
09-24-2006, 09:22
You would think freezing to death would suck but not many years ago on this same mountain a man deliberately ended his life by freezing to death. Can't remember which trail he was found on but a suicide note was with him.

This may sound odd but I've heard from other mountaineers that it(freezing to death)is not all that bad a way to go. After the shivering stops and body begins shutting down, you become comfortably numb.

You may be referring to the intentional expiration of the author of the classic NE mountain book "Forest and Crag" along with "Wilderness Ethics" and more.

He and his wife Laura used to maintain the trail running across Franconia Ridge. Most of the scree walls built along that trail were probably their work.

He told told Laura what he was going to do, hiked up to a spot on North Lafayette in February 2000, lay down and died. The next day a group of his friends hiked up and recovered his body, knowing where he would be.

His name was Guy Waterman. If I ever do something like that, I will be bringing a bottle of good Single Malt with me.

If you Google Guy Waterman, you can read a lot more about this unusual person.

STEVEM
09-24-2006, 09:33
that is a very interesting story, thanks for the link.

Topcat, The entire story was published in 2003 in a book by Chip Brown,
Good Morning Midnight, Life And Death In The Wild.
As much as Guy Waterman accomplished, his life was filled with tragedy.

woodsy
09-24-2006, 10:24
The story you're referring to (I think) can be found in the link in post #27. Only it wasn't the same mountain.

I stand corrected, same story, my memory failed to recall the correct mtn.;)
Thanks for setting me straight. Quite a story.

Topcat
09-24-2006, 10:38
I just took Into the Wild off the shelf to read the section on Guy Waterman's son, John. You never know what feelings can be deep inside someone and i guess this story shows that. I am going to look for the book Good Morning Midnight as Steve suggested.

Trillium
09-24-2006, 14:41
Here's a story (http://outside.away.com/magazine/200006/200006waterman1.html) about someone who froze to death. Fewer people have done more things for trails and wild places. Especially in New England.
WOW all I can say is wow. pretty deep.

TJ aka Teej
09-24-2006, 19:46
And he's not much better.This was a topic over on www.ViewsFromTheTop.com, and I asked if there was an update concerning the hiker. From VFTT member Breeze:"the 23 year old hiker is in Elliot Hospital in Manchester NH. He was ambulanced to Berlin (Androscoggin Valley Hospital) from the base of the Auto Road.Core temperature ~ 90 degrees F at Androscoggin Valley Hospital in Berlin, he was helo'd outbound. Dartmouth-Hitchcock couldn't accept him because their ICU was full, thence diverted to Manchester. Pupils fixed, dilated, and nonresponsive on exam by the EMT-A-WFR at first contact, 11:30 PM. Estimated duration of hypoxia x 2 hours. EMT-A-WFR on scene opined that there could easily have been four fatalities out of that situation, survival of the most severely affected will be a huge financial and emotional burden to his family and friends."

weary
09-24-2006, 20:37
that is a very interesting story, thanks for the link.
There is no really good hiking and outdoors magazine that I've seen. But Outdoors, is by far the best written, and the most enterprising.

Weary

Topcat
09-24-2006, 20:44
Outdoors does have great writing, especially Krakauer. Up until this last April, i was on an airplane traveling every week and bought them all to read in airports and on planes and I could find something to read and enjoy in every one of them. None of them are perfect, but anything is better than nothing on a 3 hour delay...

Darwin again
09-24-2006, 21:59
...Being one who has had hypothermia, ...

The proud patriotic Canadian who's working in the States temp to get experience till the nursing shortage finally migrates north.

Over a period of 10 years of hiking and climbing in the Adirondacks and Whites, I've notced, nearly without exception, that the Quebekers I've met have been quite indisposed to displays of humility of any kind. The mountains take the arrogant.

This gang are Darwin Award candidates. Examples for the rest of us -- cautionary tale.

Nevertheless, I hope the hiker lives.

~peace.
Darwin.

Darwin again
09-24-2006, 22:14
But I've got to add, in all fairness, that the Canadians (not Quebeckers) I've met on the AT have also been some of the nicest, friendliest, etc... ;)

the goat
09-24-2006, 22:48
Outdoors does have great writing, especially Krakauer. Up until this last April, i was on an airplane traveling every week and bought them all to read in airports and on planes and I could find something to read and enjoy in every one of them. None of them are perfect, but anything is better than nothing on a 3 hour delay...

"Outdoors" is a hunting & Fishing magazine. Krakauer used to freelance for "Outside" magazine. i used to love reading outside, but i stopped buying it b/c it seems everytime i go to get one, the cover story is "top ten island getaways" or something of the like.