View Full Version : I was stalked
VictoriaM
10-03-2006, 18:53
A couple of weeks ago I was out for s short hike with my two pugs (no comments on that, please) and was heading back to the car when I realized something was following me. My dogs started raising hell. I could feel and sort of see something large beside the trail following slowly alongside us as we hiked (as fast as I could drag the pups) the last 100 yards or so to the car. It was disconcerting. Once back at the car I felt safer, but still got the heck out of there AFAP. I was on a section of AT in Vernon, NJ. What do you all think...cougar or bobcat, maybe? What should I have done in that situation, other than getting out as fast as I could?
. I was on a section of AT in Vernon, NJ. What do you all think...cougar or bobcat, maybe?
DEFINITELY not a cougar or bobcat. There are no cougars near Vernon. Not enough habitat. There are Bobcats, but they have a tremendous fear of humans.
Quite possibly a coyote. A pug would be like a twinkee for a coyote.
hikerjohnd
10-03-2006, 19:10
A pug would be like a twinkee for a coyote.
She said no comments on that - no matter how funny the comment is :D
I have been in an area where I was being stalked by hundreds of chipmunks (not kidding here) and it was a very wierd experience. Having said that - did you actually see the thing or did you hear the noise? Sometimes small animals can make more noise than the big ones...
Probably a pink blazer in disguise as a coyote/mountain lion/bob cat whatever you think you saw! Or perhaps a bear, lots of them up there...
Hammerhead
10-03-2006, 19:53
Too far north for the Jersey Devil....
Your dogs sure seemed to think something wasn't right. They were likely onto something. I think you did right to get in your car, rather than give in to curiosity and attempt to determine what if anything was in the woods.
I once had a feeling during my thru-hike that I was being watched as I sat alone in a shelter preparing something to eat as daylight faded. It seemed more than a feeling. I was certain I was being watched. It's hard to say just what tipped me off, although I'm sure it must of been something sensory that just didn't register consciously or, maybe if it did, I was preoccupied with other things and my mind discounted it.
Despite the belief that I was being irrational, this strong sense that I was being watched compelled me to look up. When I did, I was startled to see a raccoon and her two cubs had invited themselves to dinner! I chased them off several times before they were eventually convinced they would not be sharing dinner with me.
Since that time, I am more apt to believe my gut when things don't seem right and, when in doubt, go with my gut, unless the costs outweigh the potential benefits.
Dances with Mice
10-03-2006, 21:37
certain[/i] I was being watched. It's hard to say just what tipped me off, although I'm sure it must of been something sensory that just didn't register consciously or, maybe if it did, I was preoccupied with other things and my mind discounted it. Yeah. I've had that same feeling. I was all alone in camp and started feeling uneasy, like somebody was watching. I kept looking around, kept stopping whatever I was doing to listen, but I couldn't see or hear anything unusual. Finally I just shouted "HEY?!" and -something- ran away through the woods. Bear? Deer? Wild Boar? Army Ranger Trainee? Something. It startled me, but it was also kind of a relief.
You did the right thing, kept moving and getting back to your car. When in doubt just keep moving. Don't run unless you know for sure what is following you. Bears could take this as prey on the run. It was probably a small animal moving thru the leaves.
Happy Trails,
Chip
Could have been Sasquatch. Or a hiker. Hard to tell them apart sometimes.
I've read the whole thread and I still can't stop laughing about the "being stalked by hundreds of "chipmunks". I can see the headline now:
"Alvin, Simon, and Theodore turn deadly...more at 11"
Victoria, I know your question is serious, and that those little noises can make you jump especially at night. Take a look at the attached story, this guy lives in my backyard. I just wish he knew how to push a lawnmower.
http://www.weirdnj.com/stories/_unexplained01.asp
Tim Rich
10-04-2006, 09:38
Probably a pink blazer in disguise as a coyote/mountain lion/bob cat whatever you think you saw! Or perhaps a bear, lots of them up there...
I figured a PB reference would crop up. :D
By the way the twinkies were acting, my vote's a coyote.
great, im doing my first nj section hike in 2 weeks. :eek:
Gray Blazer
10-04-2006, 10:22
If you were in Massachussetts, I'd say it was Ted Kennedy. Can anybody say Mary Jo Kapechne?
If you were in Massachussetts, I'd say it was Ted Kennedy. Can anybody say Mary Jo Kapechne?
Weak and wrong in definition. Try to keep up.
That **** happened 40 years ago and Mary Jo was a passenger and family friend. If you want to bring politics (or politicians) into a non-politicial forum, you should have mentioned Mark Foley, stalker of the week!
Can anybody say Mary Jo Kapechne?
Can anybody spell Mary Jo Kopechne?
Time To Fly 97
10-04-2006, 11:14
Sometimes when I look up at Pinwheel Vista I don't see anything...but I feel them there...watching me. Creepy!
Happy hiking!
Time To Fly 97
Gray Blazer
10-04-2006, 11:34
Weak and wrong in definition. Try to keep up.
That **** happened 40 years ago and Mary Jo was a passenger and family friend. If you want to bring politics (or politicians) into a non-politicial forum, you should have mentioned Mark Foley, stalker of the week!
Whoops, sorry. I meant Bill Clinton.:o
Gray Blazer
10-04-2006, 11:36
Can anybody spell Mary Jo Kopechne?
I can only say it, I can't spell it.:o
Gray Blazer
10-04-2006, 11:37
Sly is right, if it was on the FL Trail, it was probably Mark Foley.:o
im from vernon, it was prolly a bear, or more likely a bear, or perhaps it was hitchiker john
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-04-2006, 14:52
Sly is right, if it was on the FL Trail, it was probably Mark Foley.:oAh... guys... I don't think Victoria is his type.
vipahman
10-04-2006, 16:06
Victoria, you did well. My wife would have freaked in that situation. Curiosity in unfamiliar situations can be a death wish. Remember the fate of those who went down to the beach to look at the receding waters of the Dec tsunami while the animals headed the other way. Sometimes it's good to heed your instinct and ignore your curiosity.
StarLyte
10-04-2006, 16:45
great, im doing my first nj section hike in 2 weeks. :eek:
ewwwwww.......we'll be thinkin of ya Matt :D
Victoria!! I'm glad you're okay. That must have been pretty darn scary. WOW.
johnny quest
10-04-2006, 16:45
i have no doubt it was SOMETHING. trust your instincts. as for it "DEFINITELY" not being a cougar or bobcat, that is just not true. there are more cougars and bobcats closer to suburbia and cities than ever before. i remember growing up in florida and the experts said the florida panther was all but extinct and definitely not in the panhandle. yet we heard them all the time. now, behold, there they are.
....as for it "DEFINITELY" not being a cougar or bobcat, that is just not true.
I'm a naturalist and lived 10 minutes from there for 16 years (88-'03). And in the general area for 40+ years. But since you're from Texas, you obviously know better. :rolleyes: ;)
I knew a post like this was coming. It just took longer than I anticipated.
VictoriaM
10-04-2006, 16:52
My current guess is cougar, honestly. They're sighted around here from time to time. I know the sound of bears (there are two of them living in my five acre backyard) and it wasn't that. The really freaky thing about it was how quiet it was. Squirrels make a lot more noise than whatever this was. I also couldn't see it, despite the brush and trees not being all that thick. I could feel it there, though, and see movement out of the corner of my eye a bit. Definitely catlike.
It's nice to hear that I did exactly what I should have. It was a bit scary, but also very cool, you know? Not so cool for the poor "twinkies", though!
johnny quest
10-04-2006, 17:00
im no naturalist and dont know better (*******) but i am a thinker. and a reader. and according to the folks that track cougars they are heading east fast and quick, drawn by the increase in the deer population and reforestation.
for those who dont already know all-there-is-to-know-about-everything, www.easterncougarnet.org has some interesting stuff about it.
perhaps you were expecting it a post that disagreed with yours because it was just so...knowitall.
I've only heard of one hiker seeing a mountain lion on the AT and that was in the Shenendaohs and if I'm not mistaken, Park officials are relunctant to verify this as they have no official proof.
for those who dont already know all-there-is-to-know-about-everything, www.easterncougarnet.org (http://www.easterncougarnet.org) has some interesting stuff about it.
I think they have a eastern Bigfoot site too! Alas, like the mountain lion, no confirmations along the AT. :(
perhaps you were expecting it a post that disagreed with yours because it was just so...knowitall.
Whatever cowboy. :D
Whatever cowboy. :D
all hat, no cougar! :p
im no naturalist and dont know better (*******) but i am a thinker. ~~~
If you are a thinker, please think before posting. Engaging in name calling over differing viewpoints is not cool.
Mother's Finest
10-04-2006, 17:34
allright, no cougar story, but interesting to me none the less.
last saturday evening, doing my run/hike thru the Wissahickon Valley here in Philadelpia, as I was heading towards the trail head near the road I thought I saw something move like a dog...It was very dark in the woods, near 715 and I got a minor chill in my back. Two steps later and five or six deer just burst out running. Seeing the bobbing white tail was comforting. I know that there are no predators (non-human) here in Philly, but it was still spooky.
peace
mf
I have no idea about cougars or bobcats, but I have lived within 20 miles of Vernon NJ for my entire life. Many animals which are now common were rarely seen in Sussex County 30-40 years ago.
Some that come to mind: whitetail deer, black bear, coyote, canada geese, beaver, porcupine, gulls, egrets, house finches, eastern bluebirds, bald eagle.
These animals have become more common at the same time the human population has grown by 3 or 4 times. Though I doubt that a cougar or bobcat was what Victoria encountered, I do believe it is at least possible.
Victoria, If you called Space Farms in Beemerville NJ and spoke to either Fred or Parker, I know they could tell you if Cougar and Bobcat still live in NJ.
johnny quest
10-04-2006, 17:46
your right roland, that wasnt cool. my apologies to everyone on the thread. especially mowgli.
my point (which i have clouded with my wrong words) is not that it definitely was a cougar or bobcat, but that there is growing evidence that they may be in the area. mowgli's first post was so dismissive as to discourage disagreement. i disagreed. and he seemed to be waiting to pounce (cougar-like) on anyone who did, with his pedigree showing to prove he isnt to be argued with. slys comment... well.... easterncougarnet is NOT a "bigfoot"-type website. to compare them is disengenuous.
regardless of your resume as a naturalist or your stack of water bills proving residence in the areas, i think your close minded to immediately say that there cannot be cougars or bobcats there, given the evidence. a quick check found these recent articles about mountain lion sightings in the state:
august 06 -The Atlantic City Press reports unsubstantiated sightings of a mountain lion in Upper Township, New Jersey.
may 06 - State wildlife officials are trying to determine whether there really is a mountain lion on the prowl in Monmouth County, New Jersey.
oct 06 - Although the New Jersey officials continue to exist big cats here are long extinct, a Berlin Borough couple have some blurry photos to prove there’s something big and furry on the loose.
may 06The state Division of Fish and Wildlife is investigating the paw print and droppings of what one Colts Neck resident believes was a passing mountain lion.
june 06 - According to local media reports of June 1, 2006, a “cougar” is being seen near Greenwich, New Jersey. The police are taking the sightings seriously because they’ve seen them too.
Thank you, JQ. I respect that.
your right roland, that wasnt cool. my apologies to everyone on the thread. especially mowgli.
my point (which i have clouded with my wrong words) is not that it definitely was a cougar or bobcat, but that there is growing evidence that they may be in the area. mowgli's first post was so dismissive as to discourage disagreement. i disagreed. and he seemed to be waiting to pounce (cougar-like) on anyone who did, with his pedigree showing to prove he isnt to be argued with.
No worries Johnny. And I kinda did pounce. I still stand by my coments for the following reasons;
All kinds of folks walk their dogs along the AT in Vernon. Cats (if they are present, and that's a BIG if, will avoid the trail like the plague)
The habitat is not suitable for cougars. Yes, there is plenty of food, but the forests near Vernon are badly fragmented. The nearby Newark Watershed is a sizeable chunk, but not enough to sustain a population of cougar
Thousand of hunters and tens of thousands of autos travel in the area. Why have no cougars been killed? I have seen Bobcat in nearby Sterling Forest - and they do exist in North Jersey. They DO NOT stalk humans however. Especially if they have a canine with them.
There are thousands of head of livestock in the area. Why no reports of killings by large cats?
I could go on. Maybe I'm wrong. But I seriously doubt it. Coyote & Bear are common in the area.
As I said earlier, Cougars in the east exist mostly in peoples minds. That's not to say they don't exist. I'm sure they do in some places. Not suburban Vernon, NJ however.
saimyoji
10-04-2006, 22:13
On a walk from Wind Gap to DWG last spring I could have sworn I was being stalked as well. It was that eerie feeling you get that you sense a presence, but can't see anything. I thought it following me ahead of me. I came across what I later determined was probably large cat scat. Bobcat? Probably not, from what I know of bobcat they would flee at sensing human presence. Cougar? Anyone's guess. My guess? It was stealthy, and quiet and powerful. Then again, it could have just been my nerves. :(
It was stealthy, and quiet and powerful.
Undoubtedly NOT Minnesota Smith. ;)
johnny quest
10-05-2006, 09:18
i dont know the jersey area well. i have seen two cougars (mountain lions) here in texas, both in places that were unexpected. both were daytime events and not fleeting at all. there was no doubt what i saw. one was on the bosque river in central texas. the other was along a road in dairy country. that cougar was killed a week later. i saw the body and the deep brown coat on both makes me pretty sure it was the same one.
a state park official told me that the cougars actually travel from mexico up into the northern us. he told me he knew of at least 3 that go thru his little park in central texas regularly. they dont advertise it.
for anyone who wants to look into it there are lots of first person accounts of sightings in the east as well as all over the u.s. the thought that they just cant be in new jersey reminds me so much of the professionals' attitude in florida in the 70s. i remember some university of west florida professor talking down any thought there were "panters" in northwest florida. not enough habitat. too many roads to cross. too many dogs and people. blah blah. we swamp dwellers knew better. i would love to talk to that guy now.
my point is that in both cases i was involved in (texas) state officials were very reluctant to admit the possibility (on the record) of their existence. why? i think its a combination of things; desire to protect the animal, fear of starting some panic and reluctance to go on record with something they might not be able to prove. ( i do think many sightings end up being something else)
for all i know mowgli's immediate denial of the possibility of cougars or bobcats may be part of a bigger conspiracy to squash knowledge of their existance. perhaps he is one of many seeded into places where the question may come up. simple naturalist? im thinking man in black.
come clean mowgli. (if thats your real name.) who you working for?
Time To Fly 97
10-05-2006, 09:44
I've only heard of one hiker seeing a mountain lion on the AT and that was in the Shenendaohs and if I'm not mistaken, Park officials are relunctant to verify this as they have no official proof.
Hey Sly!
I saw a mountain lion in the Shenendoahs. After it saw me (75 ft?) it launched down the trail and up and through some underbrush and disappeared. The wild thing about it was that it didn't make a single sound.
Happy hiking!
TTF
Creek Dancer
10-05-2006, 09:52
Hey Sly!
I saw a mountain lion in the Shenendoahs. After it saw me (75 ft?) it launched down the trail and up and through some underbrush and disappeared. The wild thing about it was that it didn't make a single sound.
Happy hiking!
TTF
Not sure about mountain lions in the SNP, but I heard a bobcat in the Shenandoahs. It was blood curdling scream that sounded not quite human and not quite animal. Very errie. I got the heck down the trail.
for all i know mowgli's immediate denial of the possibility of cougars or bobcats may be part of a bigger conspiracy to squash knowledge of their existance. perhaps he is one of many seeded into places where the question may come up. simple naturalist? im thinking man in black.
come clean mowgli. (if thats your real name.) who you working for?
I haven't heard much about Al Gore lately. Isn't he in hiding somewhere contemplating environmental issues? Mowgli, are you really Al Gore?
Time To Fly 97
10-05-2006, 09:58
I saw the remains of a mountain lion attack while hiking on the PCT in '00. The cat had jumped down from a 10 foot rock onto a deer and then dragged it down an embankment to eat it in peace. It was a perfect ambush - the deer wouldn't have had a clue.
I think that when a mountain lion stalks prey, you wouldn't hear it until it was on top of you. Consider how stealthy a house cat can be and how exponentially more stealthy a mountain lion who hunts to eat is. They also would have no reason to attack humans - plenty of small game in NJ, path of least resistance, etc.
I think Victoria may have been followed by something much more benign (unfortuneatly not as exciting as a mountain lion)... like a stray dog or something.
Happy hiking!
TTF
vipahman
10-05-2006, 10:01
Well, I think a cougar in these parts is exciting.
They are in Florida
One credible witness, as far as I am concerned, states they are in N Georgia-Hacksaw.
Deer have come back from the brink in the east and are everywhere now. The cougar could be close behind. So, Who is to say they have not returned to other places, too?
But as far as stalking, all to often all we have to fear... is fear itself!
Mowgli, are you really Al Gore?
No, but I invented him.
come clean mowgli. (if thats your real name.) who you working for?
OK OK. I actually work for Wal Mart. If word gets out that we have dozens of cougars in Vernon, that'll stop our plan to put in a Super Duper 24-Hour Wal Mart adjacent to the AT. And everyone knows, we all NEED more Wal Marts. Right?
Well, I think a cougar in these parts is exciting.
I saw one right up the road from you at Callahans (http://www.callahanshotdogs.com/)last week eating a dirty water dog. Who says cats don't like dogs?
Old Grouse
10-05-2006, 11:50
Here's an article from a couple of years ago describing a cougar sighting in northwestern Connecticut. http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14475719&BRD=2329&PAG=461&dept_id=484827&rfi=6
johnny quest
10-05-2006, 12:12
good article. he might have mentioned the the class 1 confirmation in nearby quabbin resevoir, mass. back in 1997.
i just finished a book bout cougars called the beast in the garden by david baron.it was a good read. i sure would not want to run into one of these in the woods .if it wants to get ya you're probly got.
Toolshed
10-07-2006, 13:45
Lotta smoke blowing going on here, IMMHO.
I honestly think you are doing nothing but terryfing poor Victoria with this talk of Cougars or Mtn lions in NJ.
I googled some terms like cougars and mtn lions and NJ - There are a lot of hits. Many are 3rd person conveyances... Someone was taking out the garbage or looked out the window and saw a big creature lke a cat or big dog and then later realized it was a mountain lion, or when they heard a description of one, beleived that is what they saw. Lotta smoke and mirrors in those imaginations.
Most people when faced with not knowing what they are seeing want to beleive they saw something out of time or out of the ordinary - They want to feel "wow, that was incredible". But put it into practicle terms - Most people dont spend a lot of time in the woods, let alone just being outside. Most people don't walk around in the dark unless they have sodium vapor moonbeams to light their way.
Think about how much noise a very small creature makes outside your tent in the dark, assuming you are experienced in the outdoors, you aren't concerned. To one who doesn't go out much or at all, they are usually terrified or at the very least, highly concerned. They imagine the worst and then try to justify it by trying to see what they are thinking of.
Ill be the first to admit I am dead wrong, if there is something proven, but right now, You have a better chance of it being a bobcat, coyote or stray dog than a mountain lion. In fact, I would almost guess it was a deer whose herd path probably paralleled your trail a little, while moving away slowly from the main path you were on.
If there were a big cat in the area, you would probably also start to hear of pets turning up missing, though deer are their main food, they would prey on smaller animals. And beleive me, if one were stalking you, odds are, that you and your dogs would never know it was there until the very last minute.
So, Victoria, Go out into the backcountry and enjoy yourself. Bring your dogs or a companion if you feel more comfortable, but just go enjoy yourself and try to forget about animals stalking you or men being rude or degrading to you (previous thread) and have some fun!!!
I did come face to face with a lynx once near lake ontario
If there were a big cat in the area, you would probably also start to hear of pets turning up missing, though deer are their main food, they would prey on smaller animals.
Coyotes already prey on cats regularly in the area. I heard coyotes outside my home in Warwick one night, and realized that my cat was outside. In the morning he came in, and wouldn't leave the house for several weeks. We had to buy a litter box for the poor guy. He's still with us, but stays close to home. He can usually be found under my Jeep at night. And yes, we have coyotes here on Waldens Ridge.
By the way. I lived all of about 4 miles from the AT trailhead by Rte 94 in Vernon (near Heaven Hill Farm) for 5 years. My last 2 years in New York we lived in Amity on 28 acres. That was about 7 miles from the AT trailhead at Wallkill River NWR.
Toolshed
10-07-2006, 19:01
up on Lake Ontario where I grew up in teh 60s and 70s there there were no coyotes, but in the recent 15 years I can hear them howling and yipping at night and in winter when I ski the fields and hedgerows, I see them skulking all the time - especially dawn or dusk. I dont know how they have been this year, though.
Attention moderators,
Have you noticed Johnny Quest's needle dink bouncing buns avatar on this thread? Avatars like his may cause Mark Foley types to start stalking WB.
I personally don't think this type of Avatar belongs on WB but might go over well on a gay porn site. IMO
Toolshed:
You dont suppose one of those northern cougars is responsible for the Reverend's disappearance, do you???:cool:
Fiddleback
10-08-2006, 10:35
i dont know the jersey area well. i have seen two cougars (mountain lions) here in texas, both in places that were unexpected. both were daytime events and not fleeting at all. there was no doubt what i saw. one was on the bosque river in central texas. the other was along a road in dairy country. that cougar was killed a week later. i saw the body and the deep brown coat on both makes me pretty sure it was the same one.
a state park official told me that the cougars actually travel from mexico up into the northern us. he told me he knew of at least 3 that go thru his little park in central texas regularly. they dont advertise it.
I first became aware of cougars moving into Texas a little over 10 years ago. In the early-90s the newspaper reported a cougar hanging out on a ranch not too far outside of San Antonio but the Fin & Feather guys and the ranch owner kept the actual location quiet to prevent...uhh...'curious visitors.'
As Texans woke up to more and more Mexican-immigrant cougars the A&M wildlife biologists started doing studies. One of the first surprises was that the observed cougars had a fairly small range...their day-to-day travel was much less than expected. The reason why was soon discovered. Cougars generally travel a good bit in search of food. But, in the deer over-populated brush country of south Texas, the cougars were pretty much just laying around and waiting for the scrawny Texas white tails to walk by.
I never got to see a cougar in Texas and I'm still waiting for a glance here in Montana. But for three Springs in a row, my neighbor just two football-fields away had a mama cougar visit his yard...it's only a matter of time before I have my own CE3K.:D
FB
VictoriaM,
You advise, “I was stalked”
You asked for no comments about your spectacular pugs. Don’t worry, I won’t.
(I, of course, just did. Heh, heh, heh.)
I have seen a bobcat in the Shenandoah National Park. They are extremely shy of humans.
I have seen what I thought were fresh tracks in the snow of a mountain lion crossing the AT near a connecting trail in that park. The tracks also passed within fifteen yards of a shelter off the connecting trail. There is a lot of deer traffic in the area. The most recent stay recorded in the shelter trail journal was over a week before.
A couple years later, a park ranger advised she was driving to work with another ranger when they saw a mountain lion walking along the centerline of a highway which passes through the park. Their observation was quite near a trail head for the same connecting trail, about a mile from my siting of the tracks which were heading from the same direction.
Park personnel are reluctant to advertise the presence of mountain lion for several reasons, one is the probability of mistaken identification. I have seen numerous photographs people have submitted as proof of the presence of mountain lion elsewhere. None were mountain lion; I particularly enjoy the plump beaver crossing a road.
There have been claims from a rural area a few miles east of the park, of large farm animals attacked by what are believed to be mountain lion.
Most mountain lion attacks of people, in my readings, have been against young children or adults sitting down - hence, more readily mistaken as a smaller animal.
It is possible you were stalked by almost anything. It’s also possible you weren’t stalked at all. I doubt you were stalked by a mountain lion.
You ask, “What should I have done in that situation, other than getting out as fast as I could?”
Predators prefer attacking an animal from behind. DON’T TURN YOUR BACK. Predators have a natural reaction of chasing something running away from it. DON’T RUN. Most animals have developed a fear of humans; thank the next hunter you meet. LOOK, SOUND, AND SMELL HUMAN; don’t apply your bear and rodent colognes before your hike.
Millions of humans are all over the AT every year. Someone is on there, every few miles, daily. Millions more people are hiking around other places. We aren’t being attacked. Be careful, but don’t worry so much that you won’t enjoy the outdoors.
MOWGLI16,
You advised (Post #26), “I'm a naturalist ...”
Years ago I was interested in studying animal behavior, but my employment interfered. I have remained interested and read books on various aspects of animal behavior.
What knowledge - whether attained from formal education or experiences - employment, or other credentialing confers the title "naturalist?"
What knowledge - whether attained from formal education or experiences - employment, or other credentialing confers the title "naturalist?"
Well, it's someone who studies natural history. Generally plants & animals in their natural systems. I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as the folks I palled around with when I lived in Orange County, NY - but I know more than a lot of folks.
I have participated in a Breeding Bird Survey on a 25 acre plot on the Appalachian Trail in Sterling Forest. That study spanned a number of years. I was an active participant in the Mt. Peter Hawk Watch (200 yards off the AT) for 7-8 years, leading the count 1-2 times annually. Identifying hawks in flight is one of my passions (http://americanhiking.chattablogs.com/archives/040470.html). I participated in a herp survey (for a number of years) in Sterling Forest, which involved locating breeding frogs, toads & salamanders in Sterling Forest.
Vi+:
Suggest you think about participtaing in a local Audubon Christmas Bird Count (http://www.audubon.org/bird/cbc/getinvolved.html) this December. The folks who run the counts are usually some of the best naturalists in the area. You'll visit all sorts of different habitats looking for different bird species. Those habitats will contain all sorts of biological diversity (other than birds). Undoubtedly you'll learn about new places to explore in all 4 seasons.
PM me if you want more info.
From todays NY Times:
October 10, 2006
Gone for Decades, Jaguars Steal Back to the Southwest
By SANDRA BLAKESLEE
SANTA FE, N.M., Oct. 9 — Using the same clandestine routes as drug smugglers, male jaguars are crossing into the United States from Mexico.
Four of the elusive cats have been photographed in the last decade — one as recently as last February — in the formidable, rugged mountain ranges of southeastern Arizona and southwestern New Mexico.
And while no one knows exactly how many jaguars are here, or how long they hang around before sneaking back to their breeding grounds in Mexico, their presence has set off repercussions on both sides of the border.
At least 10 organizations are working to protect the jaguar in one or both countries. Conservationists are developing incentives to stop bounty hunters in Mexico from killing the big cats. Cameras have been set up near the border to monitor jaguar comings and goings and, inadvertently, the movements of “mules,” or drug runners.
Some environmentalists are pressing federal officials to declare parts of Arizona and New Mexico critical habitat for jaguars. But local ranchers and many jaguar experts say such a move is unnecessary because the animals show no signs of breeding here.
And then there is the fence. If the Border Patrol builds a 700-mile barrier in the region to deter illegal immigration, the natural corridors used by jaguars and other migratory wildlife will be cut off.
Jaguars are the largest native American cat. They once roamed much of the Southwest, but when ranchers took cattle to the region in the last century, the jaguars were trapped and hunted to extinction in the United States. The last known resident female was killed in 1963 near the Grand Canyon.
Jaguars were thought to be gone from the Southwest until Warner Glenn, a cattle rancher and mountain lion hunter, saw a live one in the Peloncillos Mountains, near the New Mexico border with Mexico, on March 7, 1996.
“I thought the dogs had treed a lion, but when I went to look, it was a jaguar,” Mr. Glenn said in an interview at his Malpai Ranch near Douglas, Ariz., where his office is decorated with poster-size photos of jaguars and the occasional plastic jaguar figurine.
Mr. Glenn raced back to his mule, pulled out a camera and snapped what seem to be the first photographs of a live jaguar in the United States, ever. Other known photographs show jaguars that were already dead. Sadly, the same cat was killed a few months later by a federal police officer in Mexico, 30 miles from the United States border.
Working with conservation groups, Mr. Glenn helped place trip cameras in the Peloncillos in 2001. But within a few years, he said, four of the cameras disappeared, apparently taken by drug runners. “And we never got a picture of another jaguar,” he said.
That changed last Feb. 20, when Mr. Glenn photographed his second jaguar while on a lion hunt in the Animas Mountains.
Shortly after lunch one of the hunting dogs, Powder, disappeared. “Then one of the cowboys found him and said he has a huge hole in his neck and shoulder,” Mr. Glenn said. “Something had pounded the pudding out of Powder. I thought it might be a feral hog or a boar javelina. It couldn’t be a lion. They don’t mess with dogs.”
Picking up a scent, Mr. Glenn’s five other hounds took off. He gave chase and soon got to within a hundred yards of the commotion. “I looked up and in the shade of a big cedar tree, I could see a big cat, dark in the shade. I thought, they have a big tom lion,” he said. “I moved in closer. The cat charged the dogs. They scattered like quail. Then I saw it was a jaguar.”
Mr. Glenn grabbed his camera and started shooting.
The jaguar caught another dog, Copper, bit him on the back and released him. When the hound Rietta moved in, the cat grabbed him with one paw, then another, and delivered two quick bites in the rump.
“The jaguar could have easily killed the dogs,” Mr. Glenn said. “One bite to the head and they’d be gone. But he let them go on purpose.” They were not seriously hurt.
Moments later, the rest of the hunting party arrived, helped gather the dogs and looked on as the jaguar looked back at them, struck a trot and left.
“He did not run,” Mr. Glenn said. “He was not afraid of anything.” Later he estimated that the jaguar, by the look of his teeth, was eight or nine years old and weighed nearly 200 pounds. Mr. Glenn named the cat Border King.
Another jaguar is now being tracked and photographed in southern Arizona by Jack Childs, a rancher and lion hunter from Tucson. Mr. Childs first videotaped the animal, which he nicknamed Macho B, in August 1996 in the Baboquivari Mountains. It left the region that year but came back in 2004, where it now wanders along the border.
Like all jaguars, Macho B has distinct black rosettes on his golden fur. A spot on his right rib cage looks like Pinocchio and one on his left rib looks like Betty Boop, Mr. Childs said.
With support from the Arizona Game and Fish Department and other organizations, Mr. Childs now has nearly 50 trip cameras along the Arizona border with Mexico south of Tucson. Macho B has been photographed 52 times in the last two years. “We’re tracking him now,” Mr. Childs said. “He is at least 12 years old. We don’t know what he does in Mexico, but we know for sure he goes. We have photographed him at the fence.”
A second cat, Macho A, showed up in 2001, was photographed first, hung around for three years and left about the same time Macho B came back, Mr. Childs said. No one knows what happened to him.
As in New Mexico, drug runners in Arizona use the same mountain routes where Macho A and Macho B have been photographed. Fourteen trip cameras have been smashed or taken in recent years, while six others have been lost to bears or flooding.
As for what Macho B does in Mexico, it is likely that he travels back to a jaguar breeding area 130 miles south of the border in a remote region of Sonora. In 2003, a Mexican conservation group, Naturalia, bought a 10,000-acre ranch called Los Pavos, put up a fence, removed cattle, hired jaguar guardians and established the first protected habitat for jaguars in northern Mexico. Naturalia estimates there are 100 to 150 jaguars in the region, including females and cubs.
Females tend to stay local, whereas male jaguars have wanderlust, said Dr. Alan Rabinowitz, a leading jaguar expert at the Wildlife Conservation Society in New York City. Males will migrate up to 500 miles, he said, spreading their genes as they go. Recent DNA analysis shows that because of such genetic mixing, jaguars from Patagonia to Mexico are a single species.
But the jaguars in northern Mexico are at the utmost edge of the animal’s natural range, Dr. Rabinowitz said. The ones coming into the United States look like transients, which means it would be “foolish” to call them a resident population, he said.
The Northern Jaguar Project, based in Tucson, is a nonprofit organization helping Naturalia increase such jaguar protection in Mexico. The group hopes to raise $2 million to buy a 33,000 -acre ranch next to Los Pavos. The current owner unapologetically believes in killing jaguars.
The jaguar project is now in the process of setting up trip cameras in many more adjacent ranches. Ranch owners and their cowboys will be paid handsomely for each photo of a jaguar.
“Jaguar poaching is a serious problem in Mexico where laws are not enforced,” said Peter Warshall, a biologist with the project. More than 20 jaguars have been killed in the past three years between the Los Pavos sanctuary and the United States border, he said, adding, “We hope people can make more money off live jaguars than dead ones.”
In another approach, some Mexican ranchers in the area have formed hunting zones where jaguars are protected and deer are hunted by Americans happy to pay for the adventure.
Moreover, other wealthy Americans are buying ranches on the Mexican side of the border with the aim of protecting the natural corridors used by jaguars and other wildlife in entering the United States.
In all, almost a million acres in Mexico have come under some level of jaguar protection in the last couple of years, Mr. Warshall said, in a patchwork of conservation ranching.
And in New Mexico, Mr. Glenn and his neighbors formed the Malpai Borderlands Group, which has withdrawn an additional million acres from development through conservation easements and other agreements. The reason two jaguars were seen there, he said, is that the land is protected.
An environmental group based in Tucson, however, the Center for Biological Diversity, does not think enough is being done to protect the jaguar. When the United States Fish and Wildlife Service announced in July that it would not declare parts of New Mexico and Arizona critical habitat for jaguars — arguing that the animals do not breed there — the group filed an intent to sue. The matter rests in federal court.
Of course, if the Border Patrol built an effective barrier in the mountains where jaguars cross into the United States, “it’d be all over,” said Jon Schwedler of the Northern Jaguar Project. “You could kiss the jaguar goodbye.”
Fiddleback
10-10-2006, 08:53
It is exciting, MOWGLI! But as your article points out, quite a few are concerned that the proposed fence(s) along the border will disturb/prevent the movement of jaguar and other species.
But given Congressional action about illegal immigration the past couple weeks it's unlikely we'll see fences or walls anytime soon.
FB
sparky2000
10-10-2006, 08:59
Were you off the planks and up the mountain towards the shelter? I had the same feeling when I was going through there in the rain. I have almost always walked alone. Beginning to think that's not a good ideal.
Toolshed
10-10-2006, 09:34
Highway,
Someone spotted the elusive Rev YJ crossing a road one dark rainy night, though it is now bene determined that the eyewitness isn't really sure of what he saw after reviewing photos of an elusive RevYJ. Upon further investigation, it appears someone had set an illegal snare trap baited with Guinness Stouts along with a trail of beer nuts and pretzels to entice the RevYJ into the trap. It would appear the RevYJ was able to gain access to the Stouts while eluding the snares' elaborate trigger mechanism.
Highway,
Someone spotted the elusive Rev YJ crossing a road one dark rainy night, though it is now bene determined that the eyewitness isn't really sure of what he saw after reviewing photos of an elusive RevYJ. Upon further investigation, it appears someone had set an illegal snare trap baited with Guinness Stouts along with a trail of beer nuts and pretzels to entice the RevYJ into the trap. It would appear the RevYJ was able to gain access to the Stouts while eluding the snares' elaborate trigger mechanism.
That had to have been him-the ever elusive Reverend Yukon Jack! I certainly hope he is still "lurking" about somewhere because he was quite a memorable character. He was quite fond of Guinness, too, as I recall. For me, just being cold is my general beer criteria, and I'll even relax that one on occasion. They did taste good in town:D !
Anyway, we shared a shelter or two in '04 and I am trying to recall exactly which beer can he used to make his pepsi stove. Good chance it was with a Guinness can, too:D
Were you off the planks and up the mountain towards the shelter? I had the same feeling when I was going through there in the rain. I have almost always walked alone. Beginning to think that's not a good ideal.
You have three concerns in that section.
Getting poison ivy - which is a distinct possibility
getting hit by a car after emerging from Verny Swamp - or on the road walk before crossing the Walllkill River
Be alert for hunters - and be sure to wear blaze orange during hunting season. That area is part of a National Wildlife Refuge - and is loaded with deer, turkey. bear, and water fowl.
That's not to say women (and men) shouldn't be cautious and alert at all times. But there is nothing inherently dangerous about this section of trail.
VictoriaM
10-10-2006, 22:44
Actually the section I was on was right across the road from the cow field on 94. The boardwalk is, I think, on the other end of the same section.
That's not to say women (and men) shouldn't be cautious and alert at all times. But there is nothing inherently dangerous about this section of trail.
Of course you should be cautious! Didn't Adrianna get whacked on that section of trail by Paulie Walnuts and then almost froze to death?
Actually the section I was on was right across the road from the cow field on 94. The boardwalk is, I think, on the other end of the same section.
Victoria, I don't know how long you have lived in Northwest NJ, but the area you are talking about was once going to be used as a dump for radioactive soil. Needless to say, the people in Vernon and Warwick went NUTS.
I've hiked that area several times and haven't seen any wildlife that I recall. Try this section on a cold winter morning, from the escarpment your view goes from the DWG all the way to the Catskill Mountains. Probably 125 miles.
Dances with Mice
10-11-2006, 08:08
Of course you should be cautious! Didn't Adrianna get whacked on that section of trail by Paulie Walnuts and then almost froze to death?No, Silvio whacked Adriana (he was just doing another gig for the Boss). Paulie & Chris almost froze to death when they tried to whack the Russian.
Of course you should be cautious! Didn't Adrianna get whacked on that section of trail by Paulie Walnuts and then almost froze to death?
You're mixing episodes. Adrianna probably got whacked in Bergen County near where the next ATC Biennial Conference (http://www.ramapo2007.org/) is planned. That's north Jersey.
Paulie got lost in the Pine Barrens - near where the Batona Trail (http://members.aol.com/Batona/BatonaTrailGuide.html) is. That's south Jersey.
Victoria, I don't know how long you have lived in Northwest NJ, but the area you are talking about was once going to be used as a dump for radioactive soil. Needless to say, the people in Vernon and Warwick went NUTS.
Radon. Steve is talking about radon. And yes, it was a big issue in the early 80s.
VictoriaM,
I was ready to dismiss your encounter too, but I find it very interesting that your experience was so very near Wawayanda State Park, and the reported sightings referenced on the other thread going on now.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19481
Makes me rethink what I was thinking!
It also makes me wonder if I really wantg to follow through with my plan to see Apocolypto later this weekend-- I hear there is a sceene with a big cat...
Rick B
laniamore
12-09-2006, 20:23
I once had a feeling during my thru-hike that I was being watched as I sat alone in a shelter preparing something to eat as daylight faded. It seemed more than a feeling. I was certain I was being watched.
See, stuff like this freaks me out. Yeah, I've read Byrson and about people that have died on the trail and I have continued to convince myself they were all specific circumstances but I'm still freaked out!
See, stuff like this freaks me out. Yeah, I've read Byrson and about people that have died on the trail and I have continued to convince myself they were all specific circumstances but I'm still freaked out!
Truer than true, I tell you! What you quoted. I was there.;)
warraghiyagey
12-10-2006, 04:46
It seems nobody wants to believe the big cats are out there. The new york state Department of Environmental Conservation has said that the formerly native black panther has been extinct in the state since the mid 1800's. Even though one of their own testified to his unmistakable sighting just a few years ago (with accompanying picture).
All over New York there are still people who know the difference who have seen them. Why is it so hard to conceive or admit they are still out there?
With that said, it is not typical of any north american predator/carnivore to seek out human contact. But big cats historically have been known to shadow humans, they're curious and fearless but stories of actual physical contact are about as numerous as a three time lottery winner.
But walking straight to your car seems the safest bet in any scenario. And it's nice that people have honored your request not to poke fun at the twinkies.
Besides, coyotes would be more likely to see the darling pugs as pot pies.
:) :) :) :)
JK. Hope to see you out on the trail this year.
Peace.
PS. If the pugs ar upset about the pot pie thing I'll send them some milk bones or treat of their choice.
...
The new york state Department of Environmental Conservation has said that the formerly native black panther has been extinct in the state since the mid 1800's. Even though one of their own testified to his unmistakable sighting just a few years ago (with accompanying picture).
With that said, it is not typical of any north american predator/carnivore to seek out human contact. But big cats historically have been known to shadow humans, they're curious and fearless but stories of actual physical contact are about as numerous as a three time lottery winner.
First, they are not black. Second they have killed humans but it has happened in a few of the western states where they are much more numerous
And third, you are more likely to be seen by a remote critter cam than an Eastern Cougar:-?. This state park is not all that far from the AT relatively speaking. http://www.easterncougar.org/camera%20survey%20log04.htm
And fourth, there are enough deer out there(cougar's favorite food) to sustain a large population of these cats so quit worrying about it and enjoy your hike.:)
http://www.easterncougarnet.org/bigpicture.html
As you will see, not much activity on the AT . Browse this link for additional info for your area.:)
warraghiyagey
12-10-2006, 12:43
Actually yes, the panthers that were native to New York were - and possibly are- black. Whether you're using panther, puma or mountain lion, their colors differ from one geographic region to the next. In New York, many of them were - black.
There were some alright-but perhaps you are confusing the four legged variety with the black political group of the same name that made headlines in the 60's & 70's. They choose to call themselves 'black panthers'.
However, an example of a real "black" colored panther (cougar, puma, catamount, whatever) would be rarer still than even an albino one and nobody claims to see those. Its amazing how the myth persists.
warraghiyagey
12-11-2006, 01:57
The Adirondack Park Museum in Blue Mountain Lake, New York has a display icluding two black panthers from the mid eighteen hundreds. As well there are early photos and myriad paintings of these same creatures. Black.
When it comes to cougars in Northern New Jersey, I'm from Missouri.
IMO there could definitely be a solitary animal here and there due to the pet trade, but a viable population of animals that is reproducing? I don't think so.
your dogs were probably barking at a squirrel and you created a situation that did not exist.
Rhino-lfl
03-27-2007, 09:22
I doubt it was a cougar, if you were alone and slow moving to your car with just those dogs; it would have eaten you, especially if you're short. I'd guess it was a feral cat or a coyote. I've had them stalk me around my backyard looking for handouts and they can be very sly and cat like.
Rhino-lfl
03-27-2007, 09:28
i dont know the jersey area well. i have seen two cougars (mountain lions) here in texas, ...
I had a run in with a big bob cat when I lived in Plano in the parking lot of my appartment of all places. Damn thing was even scared of me. Just kind of looked at me as if to say 'what are you gonna do about it?'
Rhino-lfl
03-27-2007, 09:30
Not sure about mountain lions in the SNP, but I heard a bobcat in the Shenandoahs. It was blood curdling scream that sounded not quite human and not quite animal. Very errie. I got the heck down the trail.
Could have been a fisher cat? I had one give me 15 stitches once when I pulled one out from under a pile of wood in my backyard thinking it was a cat.
Rhino-lfl
03-27-2007, 09:41
I now live on the North Shore of MA and there is wildlife everywhere that was gone just 10 years ago. We have deer up the wazoo (so many in fact I just shoot them with my 9mm from my kitchen window, damn deer ticks and their lyme disease), 2 coyote dens, lots of fisher cats, bever, bald eagles, wild turkeys, all kinds of neat stuff.
It's good to see animals making a come back to their old habitats.
Gray Blazer
03-27-2007, 10:52
Could have been a fisher cat? I had one give me 15 stitches once when I pulled one out from under a pile of wood in my backyard thinking it was a cat.
(Trying hard to bite tongue.....arrgghh....can't do it!) That's a pretty smart cat. I wonder where he got his med degree? :rolleyes:
Rhino-lfl
03-27-2007, 13:41
(Trying hard to bite tongue.....arrgghh....can't do it!) That's a pretty smart cat. I wonder where he got his med degree? :rolleyes:
Ok ok. My cat was outside and I thought it was under a lumber pile since I heard some noise and saw a soft gray tail. I jumped on the pile, reached under and grabbed it. Well when I pulled it out it wasn't my cat, but it was a fisher. It raked its front claws down my arm, still have scars to this day, and I needed 15 stitches to the wound.
I’ve had bear, coyote, and skunk encounters, and this fisher was the nastiest thing on 4 legs I ever met. I’d hate to meet a wolverine, its bigger bad cousin.
Gray Blazer
03-27-2007, 13:51
Ok ok. My cat was outside and I thought it was under a lumber pile since I heard some noise and saw a soft gray tail. I jumped on the pile, reached under and grabbed it. Well when I pulled it out it wasn't my cat, but it was a fisher. It raked its front claws down my arm, still have scars to this day, and I needed 15 stitches to the wound.
I’ve had bear, coyote, and skunk encounters, and this fisher was the nastiest thing on 4 legs I ever met. I’d hate to meet a wolverine, its bigger bad cousin.
Good story, forgive me for being a smart @$$.
Rhino-lfl
03-27-2007, 13:54
Good story, forgive me for being a smart @$$.
Nope, you're doomed to a hell of foot blisters.
Trajectory
05-09-2007, 01:18
Anyone know where Victoria M is on the trail? Some of you stalkers should be able to give us a fix. :rolleyes:
Anyone know where Victoria M is on the trail? Some of you stalkers should be able to give us a fix. :rolleyes:
I have been checking up on her journal and haven't seen anything for quite some time.
Last I heard she was getting back on the trail... haven't heard a peep since... :-?
warraghiyagey
05-09-2007, 04:18
I have been checking up on her journal and haven't seen anything for quite some time.
Last I heard she was getting back on the trail... haven't heard a peep since... :-?
Yes, yes Victoria M you have some friends here that wonder how (and where) you are. If you're on the trail I hope it's what you hoped for, and the more that it inevitably becomes. Let us know girl.:)
Peace
Warraghiyagey
SOBO7
aaroniguana
05-09-2007, 07:03
FL Trail has it's own version of Bigfoot, the infamous Skunk Ape.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunk_Ape
And that woman said she was from Texas! Honest!
Jester2000
05-12-2007, 22:06
. . .We have deer up the wazoo . . .so many in fact I just shoot them with my 9mm . . .
You shoot your 9mm up your wazoo?!?
warraghiyagey
05-12-2007, 23:26
You shoot your 9mm up your wazoo?!?
I'm guessing if there were some how lodged a 100 to 200 pound hoofed creature up one's wazoo the unexpectedness and sheer pain would make it nearly impossible to consider in a lucid fashion how to react at all let alone consider it's extraction.
Worse yet as he didn't say 'a deer' but deer, how could anyone even know how to handle that situation, especially if it were mating season.
But I think this is a good example of how some people will shoot a deer no matter where it is.:D
Oh my god I crack myself up.:banana
Jester2000
05-13-2007, 16:11
Oh my god I crack myself up.:banana
That's okay. You crack me up too.
I could go on. Maybe I'm wrong. But I seriously doubt it. Coyote & Bear are common in the area.
As I said earlier, Cougars in the east exist mostly in peoples minds. That's not to say they don't exist. I'm sure they do in some places. Not suburban Vernon, NJ however.
They didn't exist in suburban San Diego for a couple hundred years. Now they're eating hikers, cyclists and twinkies on a fairly regular basis.
As a "naturalist", you should know that cougars do not recognize state or county lines. Individual cougars need huge territories and do not tollerate interlopers. As their population grows, their range will increase.
I say it is much more possible that it was a cougar than you let on. I agree that it was not likely a bobcat. Possibly a coyote but they are nearly a spooky as bobcats during the day. Bear? Sure very common. Chipmunk? Nah, she wouldn't have made it back to the car alive....
Well, it's someone who studies natural history. Generally plants & animals in their natural systems. I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as the folks I palled around with when I lived in Orange County, NY - but I know more than a lot of folks.
I have participated in a Breeding Bird Survey on a 25 acre plot on the Appalachian Trail in Sterling Forest. That study spanned a number of years. I was an active participant in the Mt. Peter Hawk Watch (200 yards off the AT) for 7-8 years, leading the count 1-2 times annually. Identifying hawks in flight is one of my passions (http://americanhiking.chattablogs.com/archives/040470.html). I participated in a herp survey (for a number of years) in Sterling Forest, which involved locating breeding frogs, toads & salamanders in Sterling Forest.
Aha,
You're a birder!! That explains your athoritative knowledge of large North American Preditory Mammals....:rolleyes:
They didn't exist in suburban San Diego for a couple hundred years. Now they're eating hikers, cyclists and twinkies on a fairly regular basis.
As a "naturalist", you should know that cougars do not recognize state or county lines. Individual cougars need huge territories and do not tollerate interlopers. As their population grows, their range will increase.
I say it is much more possible that it was a cougar than you let on. I agree that it was not likely a bobcat. Possibly a coyote but they are nearly a spooky as bobcats during the day. Bear? Sure very common. Chipmunk? Nah, she wouldn't have made it back to the car alive....
Thanks for the lesson in natural history Smudge. Now let me give you a little lesson in geography.
Vernon, New Jersey is not San Diego, California. :sun
KirkMcquest
05-14-2007, 14:21
Bear spray anyone??:banana
Thanks for the lesson in natural history Smudge. Now let me give you a little lesson in geography.
Vernon, New Jersey is not San Diego, California. :sun
Oh that's right and what happens in San Diego couldn't possibly happen in NJ. Darn you got me there. I'll make sure we keep our mean hungry lions here in CA and make sure that they understand that under no uncertain terms are they to cross the border into Arizona or Nevada and stalk hikers there.
I'll get with my boys in the South East and make sure they let the lions down there know about your rules.
buckowens
05-14-2007, 16:02
Victoria,
I have been saved many times by "gut" feelings... That feeling is built into humans for a reason, and so what if you hurry for what turns out to be nothing. You're still there to laugh about it :D
Better yet, since you're handing out Geography lessons for free, maybe you'd be the better one to get with the eastern lions and keep them in line.
Oh that's right and what happens in San Diego couldn't possibly happen in NJ.
I don't want to argue with you Smudge. But the fact remains that I have spent thousands of hours outside in the Vernon area. There is ample prey for Cougars in the area as deer are abundant, but IMO the habitat is far too fragmented to support a viable population of cougars
You are entitled to your opinion - just like me. The big difference is that my opinions are based on extensive time in the field in the area that we're discussing.
PS: There is probably no one who would like to see Cougar make a comeback in the east more than me. I'm simply skeptical when it comes to Cougars in & around Vernon, NJ however. There may be a single cat there, but if there is, I'd bet $100 that it's a released pet.
Believe it or not I'm not really trying to start an argument. I'm simply trying to illustrate the wonderful fact that big cats and all large preditory mammals, for that matter, are making a huge comeback all over the country. Faster in some places than others. I'm just saying that I think it's a bit narrow minded to so firmly believe that your assumtions, based on your personal experiences are the only correct answer.
You are absolutely right. San Diego, is NOT Vernon. But, literally 20 years ago, if I came into town saying that I me and my twinkies were stalked through Mission Trails park by what I thought could have been a mountain lion, I would have been laughed out into the street. They simply did not exist that close to the urban sprawl of San Diego. Now, there are regular cougar sightings in Tecolote Canyon City Park!, this is a canyon that is completely and 100% surrounded by urbanization. No one air lifted those cats in. Released pet?? I suppose that is just as possible as a wild cat expanding its range, but not MORE likely.
It is very likely that when you were spending time in the Vernon area, there were no cats around. But are you absolutlely sure in the time since then, a cat could not have possibly wheedled its way into the area, drawn by all of the available game and perhaps driven by a rival big cat in the area where it was born??
When I was a kid, I thought I'd never have an opportunity to see a wild peregrine falcon with my own eyes, because their population had been driven so low as a result of DDT usage many years before I was even born. I never thought that they would make such a drastic recovery in a short 20 years that I've now seen them on three continents and in six states. Is a migrating recovering cougar poulation more far fetched than a peregrine falcon in Northeast Florida(where I saw my first one, not 10 minutes from my childhood home)??
I know its not good to believe everything you read, but... http://www.americans-working-together.com/new_jersey/id20.html
Gray Blazer
08-14-2007, 08:20
I had to reconstitute this thread because of my experience on the FL Trail this past July. On that afternoon, I was able to break away from my responsibilities about 6:00 PM and head over to a trailhead in the Etonah State Forest. Since it was so late in the day I took off with only my camera and booked about 4 miles down the trail. It had rained earlier that day and the only footprints out there were mine. I came upon a blue blazed trail and headed down it for a mile and then turned around and started back since it was getting to be dusk. When I got back on the main trail where it was quite sandy, I noticed some barefoot prints and I thought to myself someone's walking around barefoot. It suddenly occured to me that there had been no tracks of any kind on my way there (because of the rain) and the only prints I should be seeing were mine. Then I noticed these prints were at least 18 inches long with only 4 toes! It had entered the trail heading the same way I was and crossed it after 20 yards. I about wet myself and picked up my pace since it was getting dark and I had 4 miles to go. No, I didn't get a pic of the footprints. I was freaked! Then I got the feeling I was being watched. I had the distinct feeling that it was a young bigfoot that had messed up by being so close to me w/o being aware of me. A minute later I heard a weird yelp and then felt it was gone.
Well, that's my story. Etonah State Forest is a neat place. Earlier that day I found a small gator's skeleton in the bottom of a dried up sinkhole and on another day I saw two baby bears and their mama.
buckowens
08-14-2007, 08:31
Then I noticed these prints were at least 18 inches long with only 4 toes! It had entered the trail heading the same way I was and crossed it after 20 yards. I about wet myself and picked up my pace since it was getting dark and I had 4 miles to go. No, I didn't get a pic of the footprints. I was freaked! Then I got the feeling I was being watched. I had the distinct feeling that it was a young bigfoot that had messed up by being so close to me w/o being aware of me. A minute later I heard a weird yelp and then felt it was gone.
Grayblazer,
That is a heck of a story. I was hiking solo a few weeks ago and began to wonder about any bigfoot stories on the trail... I tried to quickly push the thoughts from my mind...
I have flown helicopters from California to the East coast which takes about 3 days of all day flying. This lead me to believe that it is still quite possible we have some critters that we do not know about yet out in them woods and mountains...
Have you considered calling the local Rangers and seeing if there have been other sightings or prints?
superman
08-14-2007, 08:50
I may have left my heart in San Francisco but I lost my mind in Vernon, NJ. I don't know how anyone can notice cats, dogs , bear or chipmunks in Vernon. I was stalked, attacked and eaten by thousands of females in Vernon, NJ. There are places in this country that amaze me that civilization can exist....the southwest because of the heat and Vernon, NJ...just because.:)
Gray Blazer
08-14-2007, 11:17
Have you considered calling the local Rangers and seeing if there have been other sightings or prints?
My experience with Park Rangers around here is that they tell me I'm lying (they don't believe I saw a black panther near Wacahoota, so why would they believe I saw those footprints. Believe me next time I'll get a pic). When I mentioned it to the guide at the Natural History Museum in G'ville he observed to me that usually the sightings are further south like in the Ocala National Forest. There have been numerous sightings of what they call the skunkape in and around the ONF. About 10 years ago my wife and I and two of our teenaged boys went camping at Buck Lake in ONF (before it turned into a permanent rainbow gathering campsite). All the regular sites were filled up so we put the gear in the canoe and paddled across the lake and set up our own Camp Salute Your Shorts. Needless to say, the boys were too cool to camp by us. Well, about 10:00 PM they came rushing back to our camp with all their gear in their hands yelling that they had seen the "Wild Satchmo" (their word for Sasquatch). Two things..... they were definitely freaked AND they camped right beside us the whole rest of the trip which testifies to me that they saw something. I always get a kick out of picturing in my mind Louis Armstrong (the real Satchmo) out in the woods singing "Hello Dolly".
generoll
08-14-2007, 11:55
Hello GB:
I thought that I'd share my own panther story from Ocala. I used to keep a trailer in "Forest Lakes Park" if you are familiar with that location. Late one evening I was a passenger in the caretakers old Land Rover and we were returning from a visit to one of the old timers up there. There are some family names in that area that have persisted for generations just as in Appalachia. The caretaker was driving and rarely ever got out of 2nd gear, no matter the road. Suddenly in the headlights a large cat appeared. Appeared and disappeared just about as quickly. Everyone looked back at me when I hollared and no one else in the car saw the cat. They of course insisted that I was just drunk (which was true, but irrelevant). There are some big cats down there in Ocala and I have no idea how far north or east or west they might roam.
Dunno about New Jersey, but I suspect that if there is food and sufficient cover those cats might turn up anywhere.
I vaguely remember a "Buck Lake" from my days there. Is that north or south of the highway through the forest?
leeki pole
08-14-2007, 12:25
From time to time I see large tracks in the sandy soil when I walk my dogs on the back 40. Large tracks. Bigger than a normal bobcat track.
One night, this year about 9:00 pm in early June, back in the woods, I heard the scream. My hair stood up on end. The dogs looked at me as if to say, what in the h*** was that? I got back to the house and got my wife and kids outside to hear it. They just stood there, with their eyes as big as saucers. It seems to happen each year around June or July. I've had my game tracker camera out there, but no luck yet. Our two yard cats (excellent mousers, by the way) went absolutey nuts and did not leave the patio for a day.
I spend a lot of time out there. The big cats are there, I'm sure. You can believe what you want, but they're back. I hope sometime I get lucky enough to get some photo evidence of their presence.
Gray Blazer
08-14-2007, 12:43
I vaguely remember a "Buck Lake" from my days there. Is that north or south of the highway through the forest?
From Highway 40 head south on 19 and turn right (west) on the dirt road before you cross the FT. There are signs for it so you can't miss it. I've actually seen bucks swimming across it so it is aptly named. Do you remember the story on the media about 15-20 years ago about the black Baptist minister who was chopping wood in the forest and had to fight off the skunkape with his ax?
generoll
08-14-2007, 12:49
I left Florida in 96 and central Florida in 87 so I guess I musta missed that one. Still some things out there that we don't really understand.
I just did a check on the National Forest website and noted that the campground at Buck Lake is temporarily closed, fwiw.
Gray Blazer
08-14-2007, 12:55
I left Florida in 96 and central Florida in 87 so I guess I musta missed that one. Still some things out there that we don't really understand.
I just did a check on the National Forest website and noted that the campground at Buck Lake is temporarily closed, fwiw.
Too many rainbow people probably. They were probably being mistaken for skunkapes. Just sayin'.:D We've been having that amoeba problem with the local lakes because of the heat lately. That could be the reason.
18 inch 4 toed footprints!!! That's nothing. I know a guy who says he has been abducted by aliens, twice. Something about anal probes make him see things, like yetis and panthers.
i want to know what a "pink blazer" is...
CoyoteWhips
08-15-2007, 09:33
It was probably a dowager. I've heard there are a lot more of them in the woods and they like little dogs.
warraghiyagey
08-15-2007, 19:41
That's okay. You crack me up too.
Sweet:)
i want to know what a "pink blazer" is...
If you're serious - it's a sad human being that has taken their pathetic quest for a relationship they're not ready for and have nothing to offer to, to a trail built of dreams. Hopefully if you ever meet one, you will recognize their mysoginistic tendencies and continue on your way without giving them an ounce of recognition with which they may grow antoher day of justifying their repugnant ways.
Oh if only everyone could walk the trail equally fearless that someone of the opposite gender had more than the spirit of hiking on their mind.
Pink Blazer - the concept and rare reality is as repugnant as the rare few who live within it's nefarious morass.
It is one thing to smell a hiker approaching. But these particular folk have an entirely different stench that will keep you move along even after the most fatiguing days.