Trail Magic Panel at the Gathering: Give Your Voice

[Tha Wookie]

For this year's ALDHA Gathering, the ATC has put together a panel of people together to facilitate a discussion about the progression of trail magic from "small, spontaneous acts of kindness" to current forms like pre-planned trail magic events and how it relates to the AT experience.

This is your chance to be involved in an Applachian Trail discussion that matters. In person.

Each panelist will make a statement, and then the floor will be open for statements from anyone.

Our panel session is in the Subway (basement of the Student Center): Saturday, 11:15-12:15. You are encouraged to attend and participate.


Panel Members:

Laurie Potteiger
Moderator, ATC Staff

Dr. Jeff Marion
Scientist (Recreation ecologist/Leading expert on Leave No Trace, A.T.section hiker), ATC Stewardship council

Hawk Metheny
ATC (Stewardship Council Chair), A.T. thru-hiker

Pete Irvine
Agency Partner (Appalachian Trail Park Office USFS Liaison), Trail maintainer

Ray Ronin
Trail angel (off-trail feed-a-thon in the Bigelows), A.T. thru-hiker, MATC maintainer

Nate Olive, M.A.
A.T. thru-hiker, PCT, West Coast Trail, CT, Ph.D. candidate, active WhiteBlaze poster

Dr. Kip Redick
Spiritual/Philosophical Dimension (Professor of Religion and Philosophy at Christopher Newport University)

And you

[attroll]

I sure would like to attend this because I have my thoughts and opinions on this. I have expressed them with Walkin Home and he will be attending and it seems like we both have the same opinions on this.

To make a long story short though. There is no way the ATC can control Trail Magic. The only thing they can really do is to express LNT (Leave No Trace) for those doing trail magic. The biggest issue I have seen that needs to be addressed is people leaving coolers and trash bags at road stops with trail magic in them and never going back to pick up the remains of what is left when the trail magic is gone. I have been to road stops in Maine along the AT to leave trail Magic and found Styrofoam coolers left for trail magic that someone never came back to get.

[Jaybird]

.....
To make a long story short though. There is no way the ATC can control Trail Magic. The only thing they can really do is to express LNT (Leave No Trace) for those doing trail magic. The biggest issue I have seen that needs to be addressed is people leaving coolers and trash bags at road stops with trail magic in them and never going back to pick up the remains of what is left when the trail magic is gone. .....



always gonna be ATTROLL!

in fact...unless someone leaves a "nice" cooler with TM goodies....the STYROFOAM will be left & destroyed & the pieces blowing all across the trail in a matter of days...

if the well-meaning folks leaving the "magic" wont come back by to "clean up the mess"...then maybe a good-hearted (LNT) hiker needs to carry the styro-foam to the next TRASH bin!

just a suggestion.:D

[warren doyle]

I hope the panel goes well. It is an interesting topic.

Trail Magic isn't as important to me as Trail Freedom, so I have no strong opinions either way on the former.

However, until all the 'Leave No Trace' advocates/do-gooders wear a $1 pair of sneakers for hiking; wear thrift store/hiker box obtained hiking clothes; use a $1 yard sale ski pole rather than two brand new Lekis; have neither stoves, tents, water filters nor brand new backpacks; and, don't drive around in brand new vehicles with a myriad of corporate labels on them espousing LNT; I will not respect their lectures and continue to use my individual common sense, and personal value system, on how I impact the environment.

Hike free and live!

[Tha Wookie]

I hope the panel goes well. It is an interesting topic.

Trail Magic isn't as important to me as Trail Freedom, so I have no strong opinions either way on the former.

However, until all the 'Leave No Trace' advocates/do-gooders wear a $1 pair of sneakers for hiking; wear thrift store/hiker box obtained hiking clothes; use a $1 yard sale ski pole rather than two brand new Lekis; have neither stoves, tents, water filters nor brand new backpacks; and, don't drive around in brand new vehicles with a myriad of corporate labels on them espousing LNT; I will not respect their lectures and continue to use my individual common sense, and personal value system, on how I impact the environment.

Hike free and live!

Warren,

I hear what you're saying.

I'd love to hear what you have to say about Trail Magic as it relates to Trail Freedom, be it here and/or in the panel discussion. Thanks for your input.

[Tha Wookie]

Can you give a summary or give the conclusions/reccomendations of the panel after the gathering?

I will see if they have a scribe or try and get something together myself. I just don't want to touch a computer this weekend!

[MacGyver2005]

I hope the panel goes well. It is an interesting topic.

Trail Magic isn't as important to me as Trail Freedom, so I have no strong opinions either way on the former.

However, until all the 'Leave No Trace' advocates/do-gooders wear a $1 pair of sneakers for hiking; wear thrift store/hiker box obtained hiking clothes; use a $1 yard sale ski pole rather than two brand new Lekis; have neither stoves, tents, water filters nor brand new backpacks; and, don't drive around in brand new vehicles with a myriad of corporate labels on them espousing LNT; I will not respect their lectures and continue to use my individual common sense, and personal value system, on how I impact the environment.

Hike free and live!

I respect your opinions, but fail to see the connection between the cost of footwear and LNT. I don't mean to thread hi-jack, so please feel free to PM me if you don't mind explaining your thinking.

Regards,
-MacGyver
GA-->ME

[Peaks]

While trail magic is nice, it really effects so few hikers. If you want to give back to the trail, then get involved with maintenance. That way, everyone can benefit, not just the select few who happen to be in the right place at the right time.

[max patch]

This is your chance to be involved in an Applachian Trail discussion that matters.

It doesn't "matter" cuz whatever is discussed or decided at the panel discussion nothing is going to change on the trail either one way or the other.

Heres my thots on what will happen. The ATC rep will take a middle of the road position so as to not piss off one side or the other. Something along the lines of that the top of Max Patch is not a particularly good place for a feed, but that on the side of the road before Max would be better.

Then the other panelists will either give opinions ranging from no majic anywhere to more majic everywhere.

And nothing will change.

Why? Because most majic is done for the self gratification of the giver -- not for the benefit of the receiver.

[fiddlehead]

I'm not sure i understand what's wrong with tents? or stoves? Warren?

[chomp]

I hope the panel goes well. It is an interesting topic.

Trail Magic isn't as important to me as Trail Freedom, so I have no strong opinions either way on the former.

However, until all the 'Leave No Trace' advocates/do-gooders wear a $1 pair of sneakers for hiking; wear thrift store/hiker box obtained hiking clothes; use a $1 yard sale ski pole rather than two brand new Lekis; have neither stoves, tents, water filters nor brand new backpacks; and, don't drive around in brand new vehicles with a myriad of corporate labels on them espousing LNT; I will not respect their lectures and continue to use my individual common sense, and personal value system, on how I impact the environment.

Hike free and live!

Thank god most thru-hikers actually backpack instead of hike from road to road with car support. Can you imagine the carbon consumption on that kind of thru-hike? If you were to hike like this and look down on someone for using a stove or buying a pair of Leki's... well, you would look like a big, giant hypocrite.

[dharmabum86]

I'm not sure i understand what's wrong with tents? or stoves? Warren?

I'm with you. I'm not sure I grasp the concept of what new gear has to do with LNT and Trail Magic. I know I'm gonna ripped a new one for asking the next question and I know it is completely off topic. But am I less a hiker for being a gearhead???

As far as the discussion, I'd love to be there. Sounds like a great time to explore lots of opinions on the subject! Thanks for letting us know Wookie!!!

[max patch]

Thank god most thru-hikers actually backpack instead of hike from road to road with car support. Can you imagine the carbon consumption on that kind of thru-hike? If you were to hike like this and look down on someone for using a stove or buying a pair of Leki's... well, you would look like a big, giant hypocrite.

Excellent point.

[Tha Wookie]

I guess we could have our own panel debate here...


There have been some extensive threads here on this issue.

They are being taken into consideration, as will future comments. From what I can tell, the ATC has really made an effort to see what people think about it, to encourage a healthy dialogue.

I think these types of things are best discussed in person, interms of arriving at concrete results and conclusions. These forums compliment the process very well by providing an initial "airing" of thoughts, opinions, ect.

[warren doyle]

It all has to do with how many of the earth's resources are used to make a thing. Everyone agrees that 'reuse/recycle' reduces our individual impact on the environment. Isn't that what LNT is about? Frugality by its very nature is less impactful on the environment than a normal consumption patttern.

When I buy a hiking sneaker, or boot, at a thrift store for $1-3, I am not buying a new one. I am recycling/reusing.

If I don't use a stove, I don't have to buy one (and one doesn't have to be made).

A tarp, especially one you make out of remnants found at Walmart, uses less of the earth resources than a tent or a premanufactured tarp.

What inpact would long distance hiking/backpacking have on the environment if all backpackers/hikers were this frugal? What if all the outfitters were not needed anymore? Now, that's leading to LNT.

I find it ludicrous that LNT is such a big issue. I feel that long distance hikers already know and practice LNT. I rather have these do-gooders go after the real culprits - businessmen, advertisers and the military-industrial complex. They have much more impact on the environment than us. Go peddle your LNT to them and not to me!

Perhaps a cultural revolutiuon is in order - anti-consumption! anti-comfort!

[Alligator]

...
When I buy a hiking sneaker, or boot, at a thrift store for $1-3, I am not buying a new one. I am recycling/reusing.
...
If I buy something new and use it until it wears out, we have both done the same thing. That is, gotten as much life out of a product that was once new. You're reasoning is flawed. You should be complaining about the folks who fail to completely use up the product and instead cast them off to Goodwill.

[jesse]

The biggest issue I have seen that needs to be addressed is people leaving coolers and trash bags at road stops with trail magic in them and never going back to pick up the remains of what is left
It is never, never, never, never,never,never ok to leave unattended coolers anywhere, even with the intention of going back to pick it up, nor is it acceptable to leave beer bottles in streams.
Pack it in, you pack it out.
Not pack it in and leave it because.... or pack it in pack it out unless...
If you pack it in you pack it out period. paragraph.
Trail angels and trail majic are ok, as ong as they do not think they are entitled to an exemption to the LNT tradition.

[MacGyver2005]

Warren, thank you for the clarification. I disagree, as I feel that LNT serves a different purpose, but life is full of disagreements...I just prefer to understand them.

Regards,
-MacGyver
GA-->ME

[dharmabum86]

Thank you very much for your last post. I absolutely see your point, whereas prior to that post I was immensely on the defensive. I also see Alligators point as well. Both of you have brought to my attention 2 different facets of this topic that, eventhough they may be obvious, I had never thought of before. Thanks again to the both of you. I have sufficiently been put in my place :D Open mouth, insert boot!

[warren doyle]

MacGyver2005 and dharmabum86 - I appreciate your reasoned responses.

I think the only people I would listen to about the topic of LNT would be Gandhi in his later years and monks.

I cannot respect messengers of LNT who have more physical impact on the environment than I do.

[Lugnut]

What inpact would long distance hiking/backpacking have on the environment if all backpackers/hikers were this frugal?


In the whole scheme of things? Probably about .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%. And that may be stretching it some.

[alanthealan]

Isn't LNT more of a resources management technique, maximizing experiences for resource users? Conservation only goes as far as to preserve the resource for future users, not the conservation of the environment as it applies to biodiversity.
Trail magic in my humble opinion has become a channel for folks to live viciously off of hikers.

[alanthealan]

Vicariously

[Lone Wolf]

I went to the discussion and didn't learn anything I didn't already know except the resumes' of the panel members. That took a considerabe amount of the time alloted for the discussion. Too many chiefs, not enuf injuns? Trail magic and feeds will go on as usual.

[WalkinHome]

Hi Alan,

Glad you got the spelling right so I could copy/paste it LOL. As to your point on magic providers, guilty as charged but that is not the only reason I/we do it. Ask some of the hikers that have come through my/our "hiker feed" and most will tell you that it is I that thanks them for sharing their hike with us. It also keeps my hike fresh. Funny, they do not seem to mind. Keep the dialogue open-thanks for your input.

[WalkinHome]

Hi Peaks,

Honest question asked in all humility. Can't an individual/group do both?

[WalkinHome]

Hi Max Patch,

Have you been talking to AT Troll again?LOL Regarding "magic" and the trail the ATC position you stated could not be further from the truth. If one thing was stressed by the ATC & company this weekend it was that they (and the panel) are not in the business of establishing regulations or bans. It is strictly about education and suggestions that might help "magic" be applied in a common sense way for the greatest benefit of the hiking community with the least impact on the trail we all enjoy. At this very early stage it is all about hearing the myriad of opinions, experiences and suggestions from all. Users, providers, maintaining clubs, members, non-members, everyone under the tent with no credentials needed. It is not a bad thing to try to enlighten using "lessons learned" from those that have gone before us. After all, isn't that what Whiteblaze is all about? Looking forward to more dialogue-thanks

[max patch]

Walking Home,

I predicted that the ATC would take a middle of the road position so as to not piss anyone off.

They did even less.

They proposed no bans or regulations and took no position whatsoever so as to not piss anyone off.

Disappointing.

[Lone Wolf]

Walking Home,

I predicted that the ATC would take a middle of the road position so as to not piss anyone off.

They did even less.

They proposed no bans or regulations and took no position whatsoever so as to not piss anyone off.

Disappointing.

So you want trail magic and hiker feeds to be regulated or banned?

[rickb]

I think the only people I would listen to about the topic of LNT would be Gandhi in his later years and monks.

Warren, Gandi would be a poor choice since he had four sons.

But you might be right about the Monks. Well, some.

[max patch]

So you want trail magic and hiker feeds to be regulated or banned?

Below is what the ATC itself says is the pupose of the A.T. With this in mind, what the ATC position of trail majic should be is clear.

. opportunities for observation, contemplation, enjoyment, and exploration of the natural world;

. a sense of remoteness and detachment from civilization;

. opportunities to experience solitude; freedom; personal accomplishment; self-reliance; and self-discovery;

. a sense of being on the height of the land;

. opportunities to experience the cultural, historical, and pastoral elements of the surrounding countryside;

. a feeling of being part of the natural environment; and

. opportunities for travel on foot, including opportunities for long-distance hiking.

[rickb]

Wolf,

I met a real nice former thru hiker this summer at a bar who had driven his truck a couple hundred miles to dole out magic from the back of his truck. Over the years he met thousands.

Cool.

But then one of this year's thrus at the bar chimed in that he was looking forward to returning next year to do the same.

Cool, I think. :-?

Then I got to thinking what the trail would be like if that became less of a novelty and more of the norm.

Its OK to have an opinion on this.

[Vi+]

Tha Wookie advised (Post #1), the ATC plans to empanel people for “... a discussion about the progression of trail magic from ‘small, spontaneous acts of kindness’ to current forms like pre-planned trail magic events and how it relates to the AT experience.” He added (Post #16), “... the ATC has really made an effort to see what people think about (trail magic), to encourage a healthy dialogue.”

Attroll (Post #2) states flatly, “There is no way the ATC can control Trail Magic.”

This thread meanders through areas of political correctness important to individuals, but doesn’t address the fundamental issue raised by Attroll.

Every definition I’ve heard of “Trail Magic” includes elements of spontaneity and voluntarism. These are simply acts individuals want to perform.

How can spontaneity or voluntarism be controlled - feel free to substitute whatever term offends you less - without destroying them? Destroy them and you destroy "trail magic."

[rickb]

How can spontaneity or voluntarism be controlled - feel free to substitute whatever term offends you less - without destroying them? Destroy them and you destroy "trail magic".

There is another option.

The ATC, ALDHA and opinion leaders on web sites like this could encourage former thru hikers to return to the Trail to "Give Back" from the trunks of thier cars and beds of their trucks at the neglected road crossings up and down the AT. And if they can't wait, to leave coolers.

Its all about spreading good cheer, right?

If its all good, why not promote it?

[Lugnut]

Couldn't maintenance be considered trail magic? If it eases the hardships and is usually appreciated then I nominate Bob Peoples as the head magician. :banana

[Nean]

[quote=max patch;256624]Below is what the ATC itself says is the pupose of the A.T. With this in mind, what the ATC position of trail majic should be is clear.


. opportunities to experience the cultural elements of the surrounding countryside;
quote]

Trail Magic is part of the trail culture. :D I'm clear.;)

[Vi+]

Rick,

You advise (Post #36), “(Various parties) could encourage former thru hikers to return to the Trail to ‘Give Back’ ...”

If someone wants to improve a hiker’s day and accomplishes that, it’s trail magic from the provider’s perspective as well as from the beneficiary's perspective.

All good things a hiker receives are trail magic, for that beneficiary. Things which are wheedled, bought, or even coerced then qualify as trail magic.

The encouragement of former thru hikers “to Give Back” implies a quid-pro-quo; you benefitted, therefore you owe current, and perhaps future, hikers a benefit.

If someone wants to do something for hikers, it’s trail magic. If someone needs to be pushed, it’s something else and trail magic will suffer over the course of time.

It's possible to award a contract to Haliburton guaranteeing an equitable distribution of Trail Magic. Hikers could make a donation at designated locations. The concessionaire at each location could then voluntarily provide for hikers' needs - for a price - all under the banner "Trail Magic."

[WalkinHome]

Hi Max,

I think a bit of patience would be nice here. We met for a total of 1 hour and 15 minutes which allowed us to hear some comments from ALDHA members. It was a small beginning of a dialogue that I am sure will take no small amount of time. The philosophies regarding the use and enjoyment of the AT are many and include plenty of gray areas. Hang in there with us and we will see what we can accomplish. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[Tha Wookie]

I'm apparently about to get a summary of the panel group discussion about trail magic to post in a new thread.

So look out for that post if you want to continue in a more structured dialogue, if you care about this issue. The ATC is open to using WB as a communication tool if it helps boost hiker input on this and other issues.

Thanks Troll and Rock for providing the service so this type of interaction can happen between hikers and ALHDA (thanks to Warren Doyle) for providing a place to meet in person.

I was glad to see so many people there willing to voice their perspectives and experience with trail magic and planned hiker events.

Jester stood out in my mind when he pointed out that trail magic is the eyes of the receiver. I certainly did learn some things that day.

I never found the opportunity to squeeze in Rock's quote about what to do for hikers that expect trail magic nearly to the point of beging for it: Tranquilize and relocate them to the PCT.

[RAT]

Trail Magic. Now hasn't this dead horse been beaten enough already ? lol Take it from someone who has been doing all forms of trail magic since the days when it was unheard of, I consider myself to be one of the "forefathers of Trail Magic" ! First of all I want to stress that I have been a trail maintainer for a maintaining club (CMC) for 15 yrs on multiple sections and also working many years with Konnarock Crews and YES that is definitely a form of trail magic! I have done it all from making a special trip a few miles straight up a mountain to take someone a single sandwich because "she" missed out on the small roadside magic previously, to the largest trail magic feed in one spot: the infamous Brown Gap Hikers Feast that I did for 14 yrs. and everything in between from giving rides,search and rescue, to offering lodging in my home, you name it. Not once have I ever heard a complaint from any hiker, not once have I ever left anything that would make a "trace" on the trail, and not once have I ever made a profit in doing said magic. It has continued to grow since those early years and will continue to do so and there is nothing anyone can do about it, not a hiker, not the ATC, not ALDHA,not the USFS, not any maintaining clubs, not anyone. I think it fits in with the policies that the ATC itself says is the pupose of the A.T., it is a culture and every hiker has the right to say no and continue walking into the woods to get to their "remoteness and detachment from civilization" and stick to the white blazes (as I think highway crossings are considered "civilization" and not "wilderness" therefor not ruining anyones "wilderness experience" ) OR they have (as they should have) the right to stop and enjoy meeting people and enjoy their hospitality and travelling the blue blazes instead. I agree that LNT should be observed, I left a cooler at Brown Gap in the early years with a note attached saying last one carries it out. That`s exactly what happened, it was carried 23 miles to Elmers Inn in Hot Springs where it still resides to this day ! If it had not been, then I would have notified the maintainer for that section to pick it up promptly. I leave can drinks in the stream on my section occasionally, but always check to see if any cans are left behind, I have always left an area cleaner than when i came, however I have seen some real messes left behind by others doing trail magic and understand that side of this discussion, but either way you cant stop it, you cant regulate it, you can only try and educate people that are going to be doing it to please LNT, that`s it, end of debate. SO leave the trail angels alone and get back to more important trail issues ! Long live trail magic and the blue-blaze way of life! HAIRNT ! RAT > PATROL

[Krewzer]

I would like to hear...see more discussion about the "hiker feed" as trail magic.

This effects me directly, as Rabbit and I do an Easter weekend thing. And, I'm starting to have reservations about what and why we're doing it, and the effects we all are having on the thru-hiker experience. Also, what it might be doing in setting precedents for other hikers that want to give back.

I'm no longer sure it's a good thing sitting in the middle of the trail, cooking burgers and handing out cake and cookies. (yes, we clean up afterwards.) Even if, as in our case, it's at the end of a black top road with paved parking.

It seems like there are a large number of 'feeds' going on in the South these days. I was surprised at all the 'feeds' listed when Sgt Rock started talking about wanting to do a feed next March. And these were just the ones by folks on White Blaze. There are many others.

After listening to Jester at the panel discussion, I too believe a planned, advertised, organized hiker feed event is not "Trail Magic." I don't know what it should be called, but it's not magic. Trail Days isn't Trail Magic.

Like a lot of other previous hikers, I would like to do something for the current thru-hikers. Max Patch is right on, it's all about me. It makes me feel good to do it. But, I for sure don't want hikers to feel like we're just the next Burger King on the road to Katahdin. That's not magic for me or them.

[jesse]

I left a cooler at Brown Gap in the early years ...I leave can drinks in the stream on my section occasionally, but

Thats not "trail magic" Thats "trail litter"

[Lone Wolf]

"trail magic" is when the giver and the reciever didn't know they were going to be giving or recieving. It just happened. No plans.

[Gray Blazer]

Like Krewzer, I believe an organized feed is not "Trail Magic" although "Trail Magic" can happen at a feed. There does seem to be a large # of feeds, but, they are not all happening at the same time and they usually are on the weekends. You could possibly thru-hike the whole AT and not run into one. From my experience (one feed, big deal) the thru hikers aren't even aware you are out there (there were only a few out of the 30 I saw who had even heard of WhiteBlaze). If you are out there a couple of days, the news can be spread by the AT telegraph, in my case, a couple of southbounders spread the word to the NOBOs. I was a little concerned about being the next Burger Thing on the way to Katahdin. I knew Fishin' Fred was out there about 30 miles south at Betty Gap (BTW, some of the NOBOs when asked said that Fishin' Fred's feed was the best thing that had happened to them on the trail so far. Some of them said that about me, also) and I knew that sometimes feeds happen at Burningtown Road, about 10 miles south of me. I wasn't worried about that so much as I was worried about keeping the eggs from freezing in 10 degree weather. Those thermal bags my wife picked up at Sam's did the trick. Yeah, the whole thing was about me. I enjoyed camping on a mountaintop for 4 days and being in service to "Rich Hippies" as LW once described thrus. Some "Magic" happened. Everyone enjoyed the hot cocoa/coffee mix as it was extremely cold out. A couple of guys were out of food and wondering if they would make to the NOC. They probably would have. I gave out lots of snickers bars. The one thing I would do different next time is have a sign-in list as I was too cold and too busy to write down the names. Someone was going to help me by sending stamped postcards for the thrubies to fill out, but, that didn't happen. All-in-all, I had the time of my life and I'll always remember it. Oh, and ATC, don't worry, it was a wilderness experience as I was at least 10-15 miles from the nearest hard road and 3 miles off the FS road.

[minnesotasmith]

Any employee of the ATC who acts or speaks against trail magic 1) doesn't remotely understand what the Trail is all about, so their opinions can be disregarded; and, 2) they obviously have so much free time that they are superfluous, and can be discharged from paid employment on the spot.

I have the impression that the ATC would prefer to have a hiking trail without having any hikers. They haven't figured out how to arrange this yet, but they keep on trying.

[Tha Wookie]

1) A data query by Wingfoot's AT group estimated that there were 42 planned "hiker feeds" in 2006 on the AT. I don't know how he collected this data, and he obviously has strong opinions on trail magic, but the figure is telling nonetheless and I hardly doubt it as a reasonable estimate.

2) No one in the ATC is against "trail magic". No need for baseless rumors. Don't be silly. While they do have a statement that says a hiker should attempt to hike "unaided," they also state that acts of spontaneous generosity are "hallmarks of the AT experience."

3) In this discussion, it is helpful to recognize the difference between trail magic (spontaneous acts), planned "hiker feeds", advertised hiker feeds, and commercial hiker feeds.

Thanks for all your input. I'll post the official ATC statement for discussion as soon as I receive it.

[minnesotasmith]

2) No one in the ATC is against "trail magic". No need for baseless rumors. Don't be silly. While they do have a statement that says a hiker should attempt to hike "unaided,"

Thank you for proving my point. Someone at the ATC who doesn't even "get" HYOH is pretty out of it as far as understanding hiking IMO.

[Tha Wookie]

Thank you for proving my point. Someone at the ATC who doesn't even "get" HYOH is pretty out of it as far as understanding hiking IMO.


Sorry, MS, but the AT is charged with the responsibility of defending the AT hiker experience as aligned with the values it was origninally created to protect and promote.

I'm not speaking for the AT here, but I do believe that they agree with the HYOH philosophy as long as it does not infringe on another's right to Hike Their Own Hike.

Thanks for your input.

[RAT]

Quote:
I left a cooler at Brown Gap in the early years ...I leave can drinks in the stream on my section occasionally, but
Thats not "trail magic" Thats "trail litter"

FYI,there was not a single piece of litter left at the scene nor have I ever left any "litter" on the trail. I have packed out more trash left by hikers and do-gooders in the past 15 yrs. than you can imagine. I also changed the dates of my Brown Gap feed to try and save that element of surprise but with the AT grapevine that is hard to do ! And Gray Blazer: I kept trail registers of each yr., it is fun for the hikers to look thru them and read all the good comments and pictures drawn and see people they know and even themselves on previous hikes etc., and it keeps track of the names and numbers. We weren`t just another burger stop along the way, Brown Gap was known for its steaks, chicken, deer, salads, casseroles,fruits, vegiies, homemade desserts (manna) you name it, nothing burgerish about it, it was top notch, hb`s and hd`s would be appetizers HAIRNT ! So Wingnut says 42 planned feeds in the South,, is that all ? I think he underestimated !
RAT > PATROL

[The Old Fhart]

The purpose of the Trail Magic panel and the ensuing discussion was just to present preliminary ideas and get input from the hiking community. The group fulfilled that purpose admirably. Everyone presented their ideas and respected the views of all the others. Anyone who was expecting position statements from any of the interested parties was obviously disappointed.

Most of the people there had been on one (or both) sides of trail magic and everyone learned a little about the entire subject and how trail magic affects the the trail and the environment. I see this discussion as a positive step in understanding everyone's views on trail magic and I'm sure it will continue at future Gatherings.

[StarLyte]

Exactly O.F.

The panel was quite impressive ;)

Hats off to Bob Peoples for his contribution to this discussion also.

This audience-participated forum was a positive step for Trail Magic, Trail Angels, AT businesses, and Hiker Feed coordinators.

We have just scratched the surface on these matters. A little common sense is really the only ingredient needed.

[saimyoji]

We all know that feeding wildlife makes them accustomed to human handouts usually leading to the destruction of the animal (either it stops looking for its own food, or imposes itself on humans to get food). Why would we think of hikers as any different?

Don't feed the wildlife. :eek: :D

Oh, if the person who left gallon jugs of water at the PA 191 crossing is on this board: time to go collect them. They are now trail litter.

[Lone Wolf]

A lot of time and energy is being wasted on the discussion of "trail magic". It's gonna go on no matter what. Wookie and Ray were the only real hikers on the panel. Folks with degrees talk too much. Discuss.:rolleyes:

[Jack Tarlin]

Actually, you're dead wrong, Wolf. Hawk Metheny is an extremely accomplished hiker, with both the A.T.and the PCT to his credit, never mind thousands of miles hiked in the White Mountains, where he's worked for years on the Trail and maintaining Trailside facilities.

And Laurie Potteiger, in addition to being a former thru-hiker, does a great deal of section-hiking every year, probably covering as many---if not more---miles than Wolf does each year.

To say that the panel was short on "real" hikers is simply not true.

[hikerjohnd]

Folks with degrees talk too much.


Amen brother.

[Tha Wookie]

Actually, you're dead wrong, Wolf. Hawk Metheny is an extremely accomplished hiker, with both the A.T.and the PCT to his credit, never mind thousands of miles hiked in the White Mountains, where he's worked for years on the Trail and maintaining Trailside facilities.

And Laurie Potteiger, in addition to being a former thru-hiker, does a great deal of section-hiking every year, probably covering as many---if not more---miles than Wolf does each year.

To say that the panel was short on "real" hikers is simply not true.

Also, Jeff Marion is a lifetime hiker, a regular AT section hiker (more than halfway done with At hike while balancing scientific career with the USGS), an eagle scout, a climber, paddler, ex-scoutmaster, and a person who has covered many more miles than a lot of people, just when he's collecting field data.

He's a real hiker. I've hiked with him.

He's the guy sticking up for your right to have a campfire in the face of much manager objections. He also has helped define the very nature of trail management so we can enjoy a nice tread without overtly noticing the design and construction that goes into it. He has made a career out of innovative research and design that uses creativity in difficult situations to avoid regulations and overbearing management.

Some people hike without a purpose, some people with. His is to protect yours.

[Pokey2006]

Trail magic has nothing to do with people who cook food for a bunch of smelly hikers. It has nothing to do with Coke cans left in a stream, or with Bibles and bottles of juice left in a cooler.

Those things are special, but the term "Trail Magic" should be reserved for something a little more mysterious, a little more divine. The sunset that reminds you of why you quit your job to hike this dumb trail; the butterfly that puts a smile on your face after days of miserable rain -- that's trail magic. The things that are normally called "trail magic" are too planned, too predictable and far too human to be "magic."

We need to come up with a new term for one or the other. Then, with the proper terminology in hand, perhaps we can have a real discussion about the role of trail magic on the AT.

[Sly]

I agree with everything you say Pokey, I prefer to call hiker feeds and such Trail Kindness.

[Gray Blazer]

I agree with everything you say Pokey, I prefer to call hiker feeds and such Trail Kindness.I always said I don't do Trail Magic cuz I ain't no fairy. I prefer to call it trail fun.

[Lone Wolf]

It is what it is. A hiker feed.

[Gray Blazer]

It is what it is. A hiker feed.
I can live with that.

[Sly]

It is what it is. A hiker feed.

Yup, a hiker feed is a hiker feed, but it's also a gesture of kindness. Regardless, it's certainly not magic.

[The Old Fhart]

Pokey 2006-"Those things are special, but the term "Trail Magic" should be reserved for something a little more mysterious, a little more divine."While I see what you are saying, I don't feel it is necessary to come up with another term to replace one that is already pretty widely accepted. If we were to get technical then the sunsets and butterflies you mention aren't really "magic" either. Magic doesn't have to be spontaneous to both the giver and receiver, only to the receiver (as Jester pointed out in the discussion group). If the butterfly could reason it certainly wouldn't consider its every day flitting about as magic any more than most people consider going to work every day as magic. Some people refer to "hiker feeds" as just that and don't use the term magic at all, no biggie.

I have been doing magic for hikers for over 25 years and some of the reasons I do it is to catch up on trail gossip, to hear the interesting stories that hikers have to tell, and to return the kindness others have shown me and I haven't been able to directly return. There is a well established centuries old tradition of passing on the blessings you have received and I see trail magic as no different.

I have been the recipient of different types of trail magic many times in my over 45 years of hiking and I plan to continue the tradition. To comment on what a previous poster said, in 1998 I happened on the RAT Patrol in Brown's Gap and every time I've see RAT since then, including this past Gathering I make a point of saying "hi" and shaking his hand. Some lines of one of his songs I heard that evening at the campfire still echos in my head- that is true magic, even though it was just a planned hiker feed to them. I couldn't believe the amount and variety of the food they had and their willingness to give-truly first rate magic. But trail magic doesn't have to be on a large scale or even food. I remember in 1987, on a road walk down south that no longer exists, having a man out in his small garden next to the road, ask me where I was from. We had a nice conversation and I found out that many years ago he had worked and lived not so far from my home in NH. We had that connection and could talk about what we had in common before each of us went back to doing something we enjoyed. Sometimes just the smallest reminder of home or a kind word from a stranger means a lot.

I have found sodas in streams and was greatful for them plus I carried my empties out as I would any of my other trash. Unfortunately I have found the empty styrofoam coolers full of trash that others have left and now see unattended magic as a problem for many reasons although the intentions of the givers are to help. The magic I do on my own is to sit at a road crossing and hand out sodas and snacks, make sandwiches, and give the hikers a chance to rest. When I see a hiker coming out of the woods, I'll ask them if they are hungry. More than once I've got the reply that they are just a section or weekend hiker to which my reply is: "that wasn't my question, are you hungry?" I feel that to restrict your magic to just thrus isn't right, after all, a lot of trail magic comes from section or even non-hikers.

[Sly]

Fhart your road walk encounter was "magic" for example something unexpected, spirit lifting. I think the meaning has morphed with the advent of hiker feeds, coolers and such.

Yes, "trail magic" as it's known today is widely accepted, but that doesn't mean it's correct.

What would Earl say?

[The Old Fhart]

Sly-"What would Earl say?""We don't need no floors in shelters.";)

[MOWGLI]

Magic doesn't have to be spontaneous to both the giver and receiver, only to the receiver (as Jester pointed out in the discussion group).

That's true, but when events are promoted for weeks ahead of time on the internet and other places (including the hiker grapevine) it does take away virtually all of the sponatneity, or however the hell you spell it.

[Vi+]

Oh, boy, a contest.

How many ways can we split a hair?

[MOWGLI]

What would Earl say?

According to Earl's brother, he would say "we need a western alternative to the Appalachian Trail." The Great Eastern Trail = Trail Magic! :sun

[Sly]

Oh, boy, a contest.

How many ways can we split a hair?

Depends on how long the hair is. The one accross your azz? Not too many. :p

[The Old Fhart]

MOWGLI16-"That's true, but when events are promoted for weeks ahead of time on the internet and other places (including the hiker grapevine) it does take away virtually all of the sponatneity, or however the hell you spell it."While I'm inclined to agree, how can you have a surprise birthday party?:-?

[Sly]

Hey Jeff, how long is it expected before the GET is completed between AL and NY? How many miles are unconnected now?

[MOWGLI]

Hey Jeff, how long is it expected before the GET is completed between AL and NY? How many miles are unconnected now?

There are about 1000+ miles of trail on the ground, give or take out of 1800. Some gaps will take longer that others. PATC is working on tying together 150 miles in the GW NF between the Allegheny Trail and the Tuscarora. Roni from Israel may be walking that in the next few weeks. He was thinking about it when I left The Gathering.

It may take 20+ years before all of it is done. Hard to say. We have a thru-j\hiker who is going to try and walk it next year. There is a good bit of road walking, but we'll provide her with lots of support.

Stay tuned and check your local listings. ;)

[Tha Wookie]

While I'm inclined to agree, how can you have a surprise birthday party?:-?

Well you don't advertise it to the recipiants.

[Jack Tarlin]

I just read this entire thread.

I must say I was astounded at Warren Doyle's post (#5) early in the thread.

That he acknowledges that he has no respect for those who lecture on the "Leave No Trace" philosophy does not remotely surprise me; that he says that "Trail Freedom" is important to him doesn't surprise me either. Of course, visitors to Whiteblaze will recall that Doyle's remarkable vision of "Trail Freedom" includes his frequently cited failure to pay user fees on private property; defrauding movie theater proprietors; scamming food in restaurants without paying it for it; the trashing of hostels by groups operating under his "leadership", and so on.

If this is "Trail Freedom" it is well that this sort of freedom doesn't seem to be embraced by too many other hikers.

Anyway, none of this particularly surprised me, but when I saw that Doyle had the audacity to criticize folks who use walking poles or carrry stoves or brand new backpacks, etc., as contributing somehow to negative impact on the environment.....well I had to laugh.

Well, he's maybe right about one thing......Warren hasn't used up a lot of metal and fabric over the years by buying new packpacks, because after all, he very seldom carries one.

And likewise, when you've relied on vehicular support (including water jugs freshly filled with town water) for most of your A.T. miles, I guess that means that you don't have to re-purchase water filters, either, which saves all sorts of plastic, O-rings, and so on.

But if one really wants to talk about negative impact on the environment, I think it's pretty obvious that a hiker who by his own admission has relied on an automotive support team for the vast majority of his thru or section hikes has a MUCH greater daily impact on the environment than one who actually carries his own stuff, and who can go days---or even weeks---without riding in or relying on a car or van.

For Doyle to criticize other hikers for their alleged negative impact on the environment while he himself has done most of his hiking while daily depending on the presence of a fuel-burning support vehicle is about the most hypocritical, ridiculous, and utterly false thing I've seen here in quite some time.

Most hikers don't travel with a vehicle, Mr. Doyle, and over the course of a week, month, or entire thru-hike, they burn up or account for a hell of a lot less fossil fuel than those with continuous car support. And I daresay that hikers that carry their own gear and don't camp by roadsides produce a hell of a lot less garbage than those who are constantly getting replenished by car.

In short, Doyle's posturing in his posts here on this thread are a joke.

Lose the support van, bub, and then tell us how we can all be kinder to the environment, OK?

Otherwise, like your vehicle, you're just blowin' smoke.

[Lone Wolf]

Oh s**t! Here we go with the Warren hating stuff again.:rolleyes:

[Jack Tarlin]

What are you talking about, Wolf?

Warren was the one who initiated the discussion of impact on the environment, not me, and not anyone else.

Are you saying that he's somehow absolved from people commenting on his posts? Since when does he get a pass here on Whiteblaze?

If he didn't want people to discuss how hikers impact the environment, well Gee Whiz, Wolf, maybe he shouldn't have brought the subject up.

And criticizing someone---or pointing out the weaknesses in their posts---
doesn't mean that hatred is involved.

The guy said dumb, hypocritical things. And other folks pointed this out, such as Chomp, Max Patch, etc. They said this IMMEDIATELY after Warren posted his comments. But I don't reacall you taking them to task, Wolf.

But when I say the exact same things, it is "Warren hating stuff."

Nope.

But not to worry, Wolf, for you are reliable as I am: When Mr. Doyle says something foolish here, you better believe I reserve the right to comment on it. Just as you reserve the right to kiss him to sooth his hurt feelings.

And it's clear where the kiss is usually planted.

[Lone Wolf]

Unlike you, Warren's feelings don't get hurt by posts on here. You're ALWAYS Mr. Defensive when your name is mentioned. Just admit you have an unhealthy dislike for Warren.:)

[Jack Tarlin]

Geez, a minute ago it was "hatred."

Now, it's "unhealthy dislike."

What'll it be in two minutes, "a certain disdain?"

Since you seem so interested, Wolf, I'll tell you what I don't care for about Warren:

*I resent that he primarily uses this website to sell information that other
hikers share freely with others. I think this is tacky in the extreme.

*I don't like some of the things he advocates, or that he advises other
hikers to do. In many cases, I feel he sugests things that are bad for
the Trail and the Trail community. I think he gives lousy advice to new-
comers to the Trail here and elsewhere; I feel that he provides a lousy
leadership role while on the Trail.

*I don't like his continued efforts to sabotage the efforts of the Endangered
Services Campaign, whose purpose was to encourage better behavior from
hikers while on or near the Trail. Not one single person has done more to
criticize or hinder this campaign than has Warren Doyle, despite the fact
that the campaign has been heartily endorsed by ALDHA, the very organ-
ization that Warren founded. The ES Campaign had one purpose: To instill
in hikers the realization that their behavior and actions could have a
negative impact on the Trail and those who hike it. By becoming a frequent
public opponent of this campaign, Doyle has provided a horrible example to
other hikers, especially new ones.

*I don't like his actions at Trail gatherings and get-togethers, where he has
taken advantage of public microphones to push a personal political agenda;
on other occasions, he has exagerrated, or even invented false rules and
regulations, with the sole intent of discouraging certain folks from attending
these events. He has a bad track record of being remarkably inconsiderate
to other hikers: He himself made it recently clear that a top priority for him-
self is "Trail Freedom." All too often, he feels this freedom is the right to do
or say what he pleases, regardless of the felings or sentiments of others.

*Lastly, I don't like that he refuses to respond to his critics and only replies
to folks who sing his praises. This is an interactive website. He tends to
drop bombs here, and then scuttle away for awhile, refusing to either
respont to, or even acknowledge anyone with the temerity to disagree with
him. This is as cowardly as it is childish.

I trust this answers some of Wolf's questions.

[Jack Tarlin]

Having said the above, I'm going to leave off the Doyle discussion for awhile, unless Wolf says something so outrageous that it demands a reply.

This thread was about Trail Magic, and I hope it returns to that subject, tho it was indeed Mr. Doyle who introduced the subject of environmental impact.

In any case, I hope the thread gets back on line, as it's an important subject.

[rgarling]

I am quite sure Warren's footprint on the earth is quite small, despite using support vehicles for his thru-hiking groups.

I certainly wouldn't want to challenge him to a "small footprint" contest, and I'm a reuse, recycle, cheapskate.

[Lone Wolf]

Having said the above, I'm going to leave off the Doyle discussion for awhile, unless Wolf says something so outrageous that it demands a reply.

This thread was about Trail Magic, and I hope it returns to that subject, tho it was indeed Mr. Doyle who introduced the subject of environmental impact.

In any case, I hope the thread gets back on line, as it's an important subject.

It don't take much to get a reply from you. Your panties wad easily.:) What more can said in this thread? "Trail magic" and hiker feeds will go on as usual. Panels full of learned folks ain't gonna change it.

[Tha Wookie]

In any case, I hope the thread gets back on line, as it's an important subject.



I agree.

If I may move us forward for now, this issue has clear components in the environmental arena and the social arena, and each have different aspects to consider.

So far, in my perspective, it appears that the environmental side is more of a concensus than the social. Much of the environmental side (litter, vegetation trampling from large groups, animal feeding problems, ect.) is cut-and-dry in the eyes of management, as public land managers are already mandated by congress to mitigate these problems. But how these effects are to be mitigated is a big question that people should consider and comment upon.

The same goes with the social side, but there is far more gray area to condsider in the development of a managment action (or inaction) with the social side. How do trail magic events (ranging from one-on-one spontaneous acts, planned feeds, advertised planned feeds, and commercial feeds) effect a hiker's trail experience? This is a question for everyone to consider.

As Lone wolf aptly put it, "Panels full of learned folks ain't gonna change it."

That is why there is no panel meeting behind closed doors on this issue. This is an open discussion, to surface the different opinions from the hiking community and individuals so that they may be considered and debated in public as it should be. The panel was created to help learn from past research, shape the discussion into a progressive format, and to form results from what you have the opportunity to share.

[Mountain Dew]

wolf, "It don't take much to get a reply from you."

....coming from a guy with around 5,500 posts and that isn't exactly known for keeping his opinions to himself either....... hahahaa :sun

MAIRNTTTTTTT...

[bfitz]

Trail Magic is a non-issue. It's not like anyone is forced to participate in events or eat unwanted snickers bars. Walk past it and back into the woods and your self-deprivation and/or wilderness experience (such as it is on the AT) is preserved. I can't figure out why this issue gets people so worked up. It's impossible (and illegal) to control what people do in this regard anyway.

I kind of see Warren's point about Leave No Trace. I think Jack's point is kind of turning it on it's head with regard to the car support thing, since Warren isn't advocating LNT, he's just questioning other's right to preach it to him considering their impact and his supposed efforts to reduce his total impact on the earth rather than some excessive adherence just on trail while ignoring the larger issue of global impact due to excessive consumption in general. I have never been overly concerned with LNT although I pack out my trash and such, I've been criticized for burning certain things or tossing banana peels and the like and I just think that is silly.

[Lone Wolf]

Right on bfitz. It really is a non-issue. Cutting trees and ripping up ground to build new shelters is an issue.

[MedicineMan]

that need trail magic....on the PCT there are those certain areas where water is stocked....in those certain specific areas of the AT where water should be stocked (I'm thinking some areas in PA) I suggest national park service type fixed bear boxes, this removes the possibility of animals tearing and scattering foam type coolers and the draggin off of a plastic cooler...so with a fix servicable box is it trail magic anymore? i dont think so. Personally i think real trail magic is fellow hikers showing up at a trailhead with some goodies-so they are there to take away the detritus post magic,generally police the area for leftovers..which leads to the other question-how much trail magic (where hiker supporters are actually there to give out the trick or treats) can we stand? Seems like the hikers of old probably wouldnt want to see a van at every road crossing with a grill churning out hotdogs and hamburgers but consider the number of hostels that have sprung up trailside over the last 20 years....do you all remember Quarry Gap Shelter? I was sitting there signing in when a couple who lived close walked by and said 'let us know when you find the color TV'.....a gnomic statement pointing out the real issue at hand here---percieved wilderness...I say wilderness because when I asked a ranking PATC member why the conflict over Quarry Gap he said the PATC felt it removed the wilderness feel.....I didn't point out the obvious that you cross 5 roads in 7 miles prior to that shelter.......so ultimately I wonder if the ATC is trying to maintain the false illusion that the ATC is wilderness-good luck there, or if their focus is truly preventing the trashy remains of coolers torn apart by animals?

[max patch]

there are a few certain areas on the AT that need trail magic....

No. There isn't a single place that NEEDS majic. Low water? Carry an extra water bottle or two.

[Krewzer]

.......so ultimately I wonder if the ATC is trying to maintain the false illusion that the ATC is wilderness-good luck there, or if their focus is truly preventing the trashy remains of coolers torn apart by animals?
I guess there are many who are wondering the same thing.

There was a handout at the discussion with a list of "Draft Recommendations" from the ATC, with notes saying there will be final revisions after recieving and assessing input and it will be posted on the website. I'm not sure but I think Wookie might be going to post this here on White Blaze. It's actually a fairly short list.

The ATC and it's policies, guidelines, rules or whatever you call them, are just a reflection of the members. Speaking as one very small, but still a part of the ATC, I think sometimes we're right, sometimes we're wrong, sometimes it is a waste of time, but always it's doing what we think is best for the Trail and the trail community at the time.

The discussion about hiker feeds has been going on in for quite a while without the involvement of the ATC as a whole.

Obviously something has changed, the trail magic/hiker feed issue has grown large enough that the membership, through its elected board and representatives, have made the decision to garner as much comment as they can on the subject. The membership may or may not act it. Same goes for the Park Service and Forest Service. That remains to be seen.

It's a complicated issue about definition, impact and personal behavior (a place even angels fear to tread). I for one appreciate the heavy weights getting involved. I feel better just knowing there are many others asking the same questions I am. Is it a "do unto others" thing or just "urban sprawl"?

When not sure, ask. The ATC, as hikers and advocates, is asking....I'm asking.

[Sly]

.on the PCT there are those certain areas where water is stocked..Yes, and it's he same contentious issue only more serious.

When I hike the desert in '99 water caching appeared to be a fairly new jesture. There was a list and I knew where the caches would be. They also have a databook with "water alerts", places on the trail where water is 12 or more miles away. The furthest being 35 miles. I chose to rely on the natural sources and carry an amount of water I felt was needed for that particular stretch, up to 6 liters, as to not get caught without water if the cache was empty. Now the caches, left by individuals, are much more prominent and hikers are relying on them. It's only a matter of time before some woeful, lazy hiker finds him or herself dehydrated or dead.

[max patch]

I've got an old old book on hiking the PCT which I've somehow misplaced or lost. If memory serves -- and I'm not going to post the numbers I "remember" as they might not be correct -- the author carried an INCREDIBLE amount of water on one stretch which gave them a pack weight that boggles the mind. I've really got to find that book!

[DavidNH]

I have just followed this thread on AT trail magic. I had been thinking for some time of posting on this issue.. but it's already up for discussion which is good as that shows wide ranging interest.

For sure..it is wonderful that hikers can get surprise free meals or even at times just free sodas at various places along the AT. But as I look back on things, to me at least, it the spirit with which the trail magic is done is more important than what is offerred.

For example, there were certain places.. like the gentlemen in the state park in maryland, where hikers where openly welcomed and invited to stop and chat and eat and drink. Other places (I prefer not to list publicly here) where trail magic was offered or advertized but I was not made to feel welcome at all. Rather the person(s) almost made you feel guilty for stopping. I would also say that when some one advertizes they will be a place x giving feeding hikers from Wednesday to Monday..they should be there Wednesday to Monday..not just staying till Sunday and packing up on Monday Morning!

I have also been thinking about Warren Doyle's comments. I was rather upset and went back and forth on weather to respond or post about it. Jack cetainly beat me to it and while I doubt I can respond as eloquently as he did, I am still going to advance my thoughts.

I have to simply say, to suggest that hikers who carry backpacks and stoves and poles are less environmentally concious than folks like Warren who don't and that proponents of LNT practices are "do gooders" and that we should not make such a big deal out of Leave No Trace and its the thru hikers who have less impact etc etc is so self serving and arrogant that it's almost too much for words. Warren doesn't need a backpack because he slack packs the trail. I am told that he sleeps in hotels mostly. And if anyone wants to experience true trail freedom..the last thing he should do is join a Warren Doyle expedition. They don't even zero until Hanover, NH. They are told how much ground to cover and where to stop each day. If I want to hike just 5 miles I will. Doyle turns the AT into one long 20 + mile march day in day out. By the way, I have walked over 20 miles in a day several times on my trip. I can do it. I generally just don't choose to.

The problem on the AT is pure and simple that there are too many people on it. Thru hiking the trail does not in and of it self make you any better a person than day or weekend hikers. In fact the nicest and most pleasant people I met on the trail were section hikers..those out for a few days to a couple months. Where crowds are a real serious issue, such as in the Whites of NH, there are caretakers and fees charged. The more I think of it the more I think its a good thing. 5-8 dollars a night is not asking all that much and in exchange one gets a better maintained trail where impacts from noise to trash to human waste are better managed. I could easily argue that site fees and caretakers would be advisable in Georgia..at least during peak thru hiker season.

I AM going to carry what ever I need to have a comfortable and safe hiking experience. And I will stop walking around the mud puddles just as soon as the trail club provides a log bridge over them. I will continue to use poles as I find it a matter of safety. And I will certainly continue to use a stove as hot mac and cheese at the end of 15 miles of hiking is something I definitly look forward to. Stoves are a nice low impact way of getting fed a hot meal.

To Summarize, a hiker can survive on the AT perfectly well without trail magic. But having trail magic is one of the finer aspects of the AT experience when it is done purely in the spirit of giving. The main cause of impacts to the AT (south of Maine anyway) ..from my vantage point, is the sheer numbers of people on the trail and this is best dealt with through education and making LNT a very big deal! I also think that carrying a stove is a VERY good idea. Doing so eliminates the need for camp fires, and a hot meal at the end of the day ..well I can't imag ine NOT having a hot meal at the end of the day. Don't hikers think about their dinner all day long?:)

David

[the goat]

Yes, and it's he same contentious issue only more serious.

When I hike the desert in '99 water caching appeared to be a fairly new jesture. There was a list and I knew where the caches would be. They also have a databook with "water alerts", places on the trail where water is 12 or more miles away. The furthest being 35 miles. I chose to rely on the natural sources and carry an amount of water I felt was needed for that particular stretch, up to 6 liters, as to not get caught without water if the cache was empty. Now the caches, left by individuals, are much more prominent and hikers are relying on them. It's only a matter of time before some woeful, lazy hiker finds him or herself dehydrated or dead.
so six liters of carrying capacity should be enough?

[Sly]

I've got an old old book on hiking the PCT which I've somehow misplaced or lost. If memory serves -- and I'm not going to post the numbers I "remember" as they might not be correct -- the author carried an INCREDIBLE amount of water on one stretch which gave them a pack weight that boggles the mind. I've really got to find that book!

No doubt some carry more than needed but, as the trail is now, there's one or perhaps two 35 mile sections between sources and many lesser ones. Of course, it also depends on the individual and the temps/low humidity. I remember one guy that said he "cameled up" and never carried more than 2 liters.

I guess the point is one should rely or depend on another for something as critical as water.

[Sly]

so six liters of carrying capacity should be enough?

Worked for me in the 35 mile waterless section. I even gave 1 liter away after the 1st day (I split the section into two). I normally carried two 1 liter bottles and a 2 liter platty (not always full). When I knew of a long waterless section, I picked up a 2 liter of Coke and used that for the extra.

[Tha Wookie]

Right on bfitz. It really is a non-issue. Cutting trees and ripping up ground to build new shelters is an issue.

Wolf, I'm glad to see your continued input, even if it is to say that the topic isn't worth input. That's actually quite valid.

Do you remember Jeff Marion, the ecologist who spoke? While he does think that Trail magic is worthy of ATC and AT community consideration, I would say that he would agree with you that there are other issues that might warrant more attention in terms of field impacts.

Getting a touch off-topic here, Jeff has led a research group in studying what they call "shelter creep," which is somthing akin to trail sprawl in a way. That research effort is looking into the proliferation and progression of development on the trail. The Ed Garvey shelter north of Harper's Ferry is a good example. It kind of resembles an eco-tourism lodge more than a backwoods trail shelter. So what does that mean to the hiking experience?

There is a preliminary effort well underway to study shelter creep and how it relates to the hiking experience, as well as environmental effects. Perhaps if the trail magic disussion is productive, a similar conversation can take place about shelter creep. Your input on both issues is greatly appreciated and considered.

[Lone Wolf]

The Ed Garvey shelter is a good example of a shelter that never should have been built. That's a nice ridge between H.F. and Gathland State park. That shelter is an eyesore.

[the goat]

The Ed Garvey shelter is a good example of a shelter that never should have been built. That's a nice ridge between H.F. and Gathland State park. That shelter is an eyesore.
...agreed!

[Jack Tarlin]

*Actually, that's a really high-use area, and there isn't much decent camping in the vicinity. Wolf is correct when saying that the ridge between Harpers and Gathlad is nice easy hiking, but not everyone makes it to Gathland; having the Garvey shelter there is probably a good idea. It also has a very unique construction design, and is hardly an eyesore.

*Max's suggestion that people simply carry more water is correct most of the time, but in periods of extreme drought, water left by Trail Angels has been a lifesaver for hikers. This was particularly true in New Jersey a few years ago, when listed water sources (such as pumps) were not only not working, and had not been working for weeks, but nobody from the local club saw fit to adequately post this information at Trailheads or elsewhere, so hikers would know about conditions up ahead. If we'd KNOWN about the problem, of course we'd have toted extra water, but in that the Club people and Ridgerunners TOTALLY dropped the ball about letting folks know about this very crucial situation, we had no idea that extra water would be necessary. If it wasn't for Trail Angels like Desperado who left water jugs in several places, a lot of hikers would've been in very serious trouble. Sly is correct when he says that hikers shouldn't count on others for necessities, but sometimes the kindness of strangers can be a very important thing.

*NH David's post was good, with one notable error; Mr. Doyle very seldom, if ever, stays in hotels during his extended slackpacking adventures, but whether or not this is due to an aversion to them, or simply a desire to save money, I do not know. I suspect it's both.

[jesse]

Quoted from Jack Post #100

water left by Trail Angels
Its still litter

[Jack Tarlin]

Jesse:

I don't know how much time you've spent on the Trail during mid-summer, but I suspect it's not much.

And your comment, though brief, was staggeringly ignorant.

Desperado is a former Park Ranger who has been helping out hikers for years. For a very long time now, during extreme dry periods, he's placed jugs of water along the Trail. When he does this, he checks them every day, sometimes refilling them more than once. When the dry periods end, he removes them.

To refer to his acts of kindness over the years as "littering" is a comment so witless it boggles the mind.

[bfitz]

I don't mind a fancy shelter with amenities. If I'm not in the mood I just walk past. I like hangin out at shelters, it's sociable. It's nice to know where you can find people to talk to if you're in the mood. I've even been to a keg party at a shelter, it was a blast. We Left No Trace and disturbed no person. Still, people get mad just hearing about it. Why? If I hadn't told them it would be as if it never happened. It's much ado about nothing....

[Sly]

Still, people get mad just hearing about it. Why? If I hadn't told them it would be as if it never happened. It's much ado about nothing....

You're spoiling their virtual wilderness experience!?

[Jack Tarlin]

You might have Left No Trace and disturbed no person, Bfitz, but what is people HAD come along that were interested in staying there and WEREN'T interested in taking part in an ongoing keg party? Would you and your friends have moved the party elewhere or stopped serving beer? I kinda doubt it.

I'm glad you were fortunate in that evidently everyone there was a willing participant, but things like what you just described are not a particularly good idea at a shelter or campsite.

[Lone Wolf]

Jesse:

I don't know how much time you've spent on the Trail during mid-summer, but I suspect it's not much.

And your comment, though brief, was staggeringly ignorant.

Desperado is a former Park Ranger who has been helping out hikers for years. For a very long time now, during extreme dry periods, he's placed jugs of water along the Trail. When he does this, he checks them every day, sometimes refilling them more than once. When the dry periods end, he removes them.

To refer to his acts of kindness over the years as "littering" is a comment so witless it boggles the mind.

If one chooses to hike in mid-summer knowing springs are dry then one should prepare by carrying lots of water and/or hitching to towns more frequently to get water. Never count on "angels" or "magic".

[bfitz]

You might have Left No Trace and disturbed no person, Bfitz, but what is people HAD come along that were interested in staying there and WEREN'T interested in taking part in an ongoing keg party? Would you and your friends have moved the party elewhere or stopped serving beer? I kinda doubt it.

I'm glad you were fortunate in that evidently everyone there was a willing participant, but things like what you just described are not a particularly good idea at a shelter or campsite.
We knew who was in the woods. We wouldn't have thrown it if some strangers had been hiking in. My point is, it's all contextual. No harm, no foul.

[max patch]

We knew who was in the woods. We wouldn't have thrown it if some strangers had been hiking in. My point is, it's all contextual. No harm, no foul.

No, you don't know everyone who is hiking on the trail. For all you know, someone hiked in late, saw your party, muttered "fing a-holes" under their breath, and kept on hiking.

I don't mind if someone hikes in booze; I do it myself. But keg parties at shelters are almost always hosted by non hiking locals. No thanks.

[bfitz]

No, you don't know everyone who is hiking on the trail. For all you know, someone hiked in late, saw your party, muttered "fing a-holes" under their breath, and kept on hiking.

I don't mind if someone hikes in booze; I do it myself. But keg parties at shelters are almost always hosted by non hiking locals. No thanks.
In fact we did know, as most of us were thru hiking at the time, and had swept through dragnet style easy 40 miles in both direction. We also had rides to a nearby hostel for those who wanted to bed early. My point...while generally speaking it could have been a bad thing, with a bit of care all potential harm can be avoided. Again, no harm, no foul.

[Jack Tarlin]

Wolf, I never have favored or advocated counting on others, or relying on Angels or magic. In regards to Desperado, all I said was that what he did was an extraordinarily kind thing to do, especially for complete strangers, which is what I always thought Trail Magic was all about.

[bfitz]

Wolf, I never have favored or advocated counting on others, or relying on Angels or magic. In regards to Desperado, all I said was that what he did was an extraordinarily kind thing to do, especially for complete strangers, which is what I always thought Trail Magic was all about.

............:clap

[Lone Wolf]

Wolf, I never have favored or advocated counting on others, or relying on Angels or magic. In regards to Desperado, all I said was that what he did was an extraordinarily kind thing to do, especially for complete strangers, which is what I always thought Trail Magic was all about.

I'll agree. A very nice thing to do. God bless him.

[Johnny Swank]

While trail magic is nice, it really effects so few hikers. If you want to give back to the trail, then get involved with maintenance. That way, everyone can benefit, not just the select few who happen to be in the right place at the right time.


What he said.

[Johnny Swank]

While I'm posting short responses, I just have to say that Jeff Marion is the man. That cat is responsible for some very innovative design and management strategies that are in place in several national parks, trails, and wilderness areas. Super nice guy, great hiker, and a level-headed advocate for the outdoors.

Carry on.

[the goat]

We knew who was in the woods. We wouldn't have thrown it if some strangers had been hiking in. My point is, it's all contextual. No harm, no foul.

dude, i'd have thought i'd died and gone to heaven. walking into a keg-surprise at a shelter, after hiking all day, would be a blessing, imo.

too bad you "fing a-holes" weren't there when i was!:D

[Sly]

dude, i'd have thought i'd died and gone to heaven. walking into a keg-surprise at a shelter, after hiking all day, would be a blessing, imo.

too bad you "fing a-holes" weren't there when i was!:D

I never had a problem walking into to a party either. Shelters have people in them, people make nosie, regardless of it's intentional or not (snoring, talking, cooking). If I need rest, I plan on camping. Otherwise I don't want to hear a couple deadbeats complaining over every little thing.

[Sly]

..................................

[bfitz]

Yeah, nothing irritates me more than shelter nazis. And you know it's them up at 5 am making all sorts of noise while you're tryin to sleep in. I never complain, except once when I slept with the same guy for a week and he was go-lighting with one of those crinkly space blankets. After a few repeats of crinkle crinkle all night long I just had to strongly suggest a sleeping bag. We're still friends.

One of these days, goat. Quite a few people have wandered up to an impromptu party in the middle of nowhere and found me there. No one has ever been offended. I don't normally at shelters, though...but I do enjoy ensnaring hikers at random places. I'm good at it, too.

[Krewzer]

In regards to Desperado, all I said was that what he did was an extraordinarily kind thing to do, especially for complete strangers, which is what I always thought Trail Magic was all about.

I met Desperado in 2000. It was a very dry period in an otherwise wet year. His bottles of fresh water made my hike easier and much more enjoyable. If I remember correctly they were always at a road crossing.

He showed up at the shelter he maintains (and I forget the name) and visited with Fig and I fairly late into the evening. He had lots of great stories, one being about this perpetual hiker character called Baltimore Jack he thought was due to be in the area. He gave us good information about what lay ahead. He kindly advised us to slow down and enjoy the experience to the fullest, because believe or not our hike "would soon end in 8 or so weeks." Also, just a mere 20 minutes before he arrived at the shelter, he had called for backup from the local sherrif's dept to arrest a guy beating up his girlfriend on one of the forest service roads not far away, he had to whack the guy in the head with his flashlight to break up the beating.

He has walked and driven (at his own expense) thousands of miles helping hikers and the trail. We later found cookies in a couple of the bear boxes, courtesy of....Desperado.

That's all I know about the guy. Saw him once, drank from his well, shared his food, enjoyed his company.

Thanks again Desperado. No doubt, Your place in heaven will look just like your place on the AT. (Maybe St Peter can arrange some sort of work release for Baltimore Jack to come see you once a year.:D )

So, pick out what was trail magic and what was littering and what was interfering with someone experience. It's all magic to me.

[max patch]

Keg parties at shelters are an unacceptable use of the trail. 100% of the time. I closed with the following comment:

"I don't mind if someone hikes in booze; I do it myself. But keg parties at shelters are almost always hosted by non hiking locals. No thanks."

The replies received thus far are quite frankly, disappointing.

The Goat:
"dude, i'd have thought i'd died and gone to heaven. walking into a keg-surprise at a shelter, after hiking all day, would be a blessing, imo."

Sly:
"I never had a problem walking into to a party either."

Bfitz:
"Yeah, nothing irritates me more than shelter nazis."

So is the current thinking of WhiteBlaze members? That keg parties are an acceptable use of the trail? And to suggest otherwise makes one a shelter nazi?

Is the future of the trail? Or are WB members out of touch with the majority of trail users? I hope its the latter.

In any event, I think its obvious that some hikers would probably be happiest if they restricted their hiking to the Boston Freedom Trail.

[Lone Wolf]

There's over 10,000 WB members. A few don't mind shelter parties. Don't put ALL members in one pile. I personally could care less what happens in and around shelters. I don't use them. They suck. Party on!:banana

[Sly]

What's the big deal? If a small group hiked in to a shelter to have smores and sing camp songs would it be any different?

[Lone Wolf]

What's the big deal? If a small group hiked in to a shelter to have smores and sing camp songs would it be any different?

Damn good point Sly!:)

[Sly]

Damn good point Sly!:)

Thanks Wolf! ;) As far as I'm concerned it doesn't make much difference. It's about the same as walking in a full shelter with everyone cooking and their **** spread out, only less fun!

[jesse]

Jack quoted in #103


I don't know how much time you've spent on the Trail during mid-summer, but I suspect it's not much.

And your comment, though brief, was staggeringly ignorant.

Desperado is a former Park Ranger who has been helping out hikers for years. For a very long time now, during extreme dry periods, he's placed jugs of water along the Trail. When he does this, he checks them every day, sometimes refilling them more than once. When the dry periods end, he removes them.

To refer to his acts of kindness over the years as "littering" is a comment so witless it boggles the mind. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=258173)

1. "Desperado is a former Park Ranger..." I don't care if he is Smokey Freking Bear himself, leaving jugs, coolers, beer, etc unattended is litter and subject to a fine.

2. "staggeringly ignorant" WOW!!! until now I always thought I was just plain ignorant.

[Sly]

LOL... You'll have to excuse Jack, he gets like that sometimes. :D

[the goat]

Thanks Wolf! ;) As far as I'm concerned it doesn't make much difference. It's about the same as walking in a full shelter with everyone cooking and their **** spread out, only less fun!

AMEN!!! ....beautifully put, sly!

i don't think i'm a bad person for saying that i wouldn't mind cold beer and good company in the woods, after hiking all day. oh yeah, i don't speak for all wb members either.:rolleyes:

[Jack Tarlin]

Jesse:

Let's look at a situation:

It's July, it's 95 degrees out, in New Jersey. You're carrying extra water as a precaution, but then, when you arrive at a shelter where all of your maps and guidebooks indicate a reliable water source, you discover that the pump is broken, the well that was there for years has been capped, and that the next water source is miles away. (You later discover that this situation has existed for MONTHS and nobody from the Jersey Trail Conference has seen fit to post signage or notification in shelters or at Trail Crossings, and even the Ridgerunners that regularly patrolled the area haven't done it either, so virtually NONE of the hikers are aware of the situation).

Luckily, you discover that there's a local guy who comes out every day to fill up some gallon jugs with tap water; sometimes he does this more than once a day. (He also, by the way, cleans up at shelters, and over the past fifteen years has probably carted out TONS of trash left by hikers).

Now, Jesse, let's pretend that it wasn't me who arrived here, bone dry, to discover an unrepaired pump, but happily, found 10 gallons of fresh water.

Let's pretend that instead of me, the hiker was YOU.

Are you really telling us that you'd view this as "litter" and would want the guy fined for his actions?

Are you really telling us that your outrage would be so great that you wouldn't have a drink and fill up your botles?

Yeah, right.

You're not only ignorant, but you're completely full of it.

Desperado in his day did more for thru-hikers in a week than you've done in your life, and all you can do is whine about him.

Ridiculous.

[StarLyte]

Everyone is so deep today.

Go hike, eat some fried chicken, have a drink, make love.

[Lone Wolf]

Everyone is so deep today.

Go hike, eat some fried chicken, have a drink, make love.

I'm gonna go run, eat some pork rinds, drink beer at Dot's, maybe make whoopee later.:)

[bfitz]

I think he was thinking of a non hiking-local party.

Shelter nazis are the people who complain about noise at 8 pm when everyone is being social because they're "trying to sleep" but don't have a tent, then get up at 5 am and clunk around the shelter, talk, make breakfast and otherwise irritate those who were trying to enjoy eachothers company last night. My opinion is if you sleep in a shelter you have no right to quiet, or any particular bedtime, because others might be having a good time, boy scouts might be making smores, I might be having a party, or whatever.

As far as leaving water jugs, sometimes there are containers that can be nailed down or whatever, foam coolers are a dumb idea though because they break apart so easily. There don't have to be rules against such things. A little common sense and planning can make anything work. Jugs of water at a trail-head place by a local who knows the next spring is dry or whatever isn't neccessary, shouldn't be expected, but can be real nice. If those jugs end up as litter because there's was no follow-up or containment, then and only then is it ok to complain.

[the goat]

Everyone is so deep today.

Go hike, eat some fried chicken, have a drink, make love.

good suggestions. i will attempt to follow them to the letter this evening.

thanks for the micro-brews at the gathering too starlyte, they were awesome!

[RAT]

Jesse:

Let's look at a situation:

It's July, it's 95 degrees out, in New Jersey. You're carrying extra water as a precaution, but then, when you arrive at a shelter where all of your maps and guidebooks indicate a reliable water source, you discover that the pump is broken, the well that was there for years has been capped, and that the next water source is miles away. (You later discover that this situation has existed for MONTHS and nobody from the Jersey Trail Conference has seen fit to post signage or notification in shelters or at Trail Crossings, and even the Ridgerunners that regularly patrolled the area haven't done it either, so virtually NONE of the hikers are aware of the situation).

Luckily, you discover that there's a local guy who comes out every day to fill up some gallon jugs with tap water; sometimes he does this more than once a day. (He also, by the way, cleans up at shelters, and over the past fifteen years has probably carted out TONS of trash left by hikers).

Now, Jesse, let's pretend that it wasn't me who arrived here, bone dry, to discover an unrepaired pump, but happily, found 10 gallons of fresh water.

Let's pretend that instead of me, the hiker was YOU.

Are you really telling us that you'd view this as "litter" and would want the guy fined for his actions?

Are you really telling us that your outrage would be so great that you wouldn't have a drink and fill up your botles?

Yeah, right.

You're not only ignorant, but you're completely full of it.

Desperado in his day did more for thru-hikers in a week than you've done in your life, and all you can do is whine about him.

Ridiculous.

Well said as always, B. Jack !


Go hike, eat some fried chicken, have a drink, make love.

I'm gonna go run, eat some pork rinds, drink beer at Dot's, maybe make whoopee later

All excellent ideas, I will follow suit !

RAT

[Krewzer]

Everyone is so deep today.

Go hike, eat some fried chicken, have a drink, make love.

.....make a little love
..........take a little hike
...............get down tonight
.....................get down tonight

:banana :banana :banana :banana

[The Desperado]

I happened to be in Hanover this past week and by chance ran into Balt. Jack. We were able to spend about an hour in the local coffee shop and he made me aware of this forum. I have done maint. work on the N.J. section of the trail on and off [ more on than off] since 1968. As far as litter/garbage/junk/trash/old cars/air plane parts etc goes I have carried/lugged/dragged and taken off more darn whatever ya want to call it than I like to remember. Literally tons, yes tons of "stuff". Jesse, you may call temp. water placement whatever you wish. When it's needed, I put it out, check it regularly, keep the jugs clean & filled ,and when it's no longer needed see to it they are all collected and removed. I have done that for quite some time now and to my knowledge,backround, training,experience..........it's the right thing to do. I have slacked off from that this past year, not because I wanted to, or thaought it was "litter" , but only due to health issues. I hope someone else continues the practice, when it's needed. I'm sorry you feel it's wrong/litter/ or whatever. But in my humble opinion, [and with only the experience of 1968 until recently] still think it's not only right, but was absolutely the proper thing to do. I think your thinking is a little too "black & white" with reference to litter, but to each his own.
Thank you Jack,Wolf,and others for yoiur kind remarks.....D

[The Desperado]

Thank you also Krewzer ! It was my pleasure, really......D

[Krewzer]

Always nice to see you on WB again Desperado.

What do you think about the "hiker feed" discussion going on here. Any thoughts?

[jesse]

OK, maybe water in designated spots, (roadsides, shelters, dry springs) during extreme onditions. But beer and soda in a stream, never.
I am fairly new to wilderness hiking. It seems like every time I go out I end up carrying other peoples crap out.
I think I will go take a hike, eat some fried chicken, have a drink, and... damn!!! I can't remember the last thing on the list. Oh well!

[Skidsteer]

OK, maybe water in designated spots, (roadsides, shelters, dry springs) during extreme onditions. But beer and soda in a stream, never.
I am fairly new to wilderness hiking. It seems like every time I go out I end up carrying other peoples crap out.
I think I will go take a hike, eat some fried chicken, have a drink, and... damn!!! I can't remember the last thing on the list. Oh well!

Then maybe you should put it first on the list. :p

[The Old Fhart]

max patch-"Keg parties at shelters are an unacceptable use of the trail. 100% of the time. "I have to agree. Just because there may not be kids at a city playground at night doesn't mean you can have a kegger there either. It is inappropriate, illegal, and shows a total lack of respect for the ATC, the maintaining club, and your fellow hikers. It is situations like this that has caused some of the places that once allowed hiker to stay to ban them altogether. I have nothing against having a responsible drink but there is no way in hell that a kegger at a shelter could be considered responsible.

[Sly]

Strange bedfellows.

Is it ok to pack in a 6 pack or a bottle of Jack? Also I'd like to see the law regarding drinking on the trail.

[hopefulhiker]

Last year I heard of Desparado and his kind acts of Hiker support.. And yes during the dry spells last year I did take part in some of the water left at points on the trail.. It was VERY much appreciated....

[The Desperado]

Atta boy Jesse ! Make that list & check it twice. happy Trails & thanks for the litter removal too......D

[The Desperado]

I have to agree. Just because there may not be kids at a city playground at night doesn't mean you can have a kegger there either. It is inappropriate, illegal, and shows a total lack of respect for the ATC, the maintaining club, and your fellow hikers. It is situations like this that has caused some of the places that once allowed hiker to stay to ban them altogether. I have nothing against having a responsible drink but there is no way in hell that a kegger at a shelter could be considered responsible.

I have to agree on this. I have seen soo many Hostels/spots to stay etc close over the last years due to that . I must admit my opinion only changed in the last few years quite honestly though and due to the closeings and local resentment I guess. I was just forced to rethink my thinkin and admit I was wrong earlier.....D

[bfitz]

In this case it just wasn't like that. Some of your best friends were there. Relax. As I said, no trace was left. No being was irritated. Not rccomending it as a regular thing all the time, just pointing out that something like that can be done successfully if proper care is taken. It can even be "magic".

[RAT]

There are some laws about drinking on the trail indeed. If you are on govt. land esp. a WMA (Wildlife Management Area) alchohol is specifically prohibited. There are some places where it may be legal but the majority of "public lands" it is not.
(doesn't mean I am against drinking on the trail tho !! )

RAT

[hopefulhiker]

Man killed by keg thrown into fire in CT. A keg was thrown into a fire and exploded, the shrapnel from the keg killed a bystander..

[ed bell]

Man killed by keg thrown into fire in CT. A keg was thrown into a fire and exploded, the shrapnel from the keg killed a bystander..I'd like to see the source cited on this. I doubt it. :-?

[The Old Fhart]

ed bell-"I'd like to see the source cited on this. I doubt it."Try this link (http://www.wfmynews2.com/news/watercooler/article.aspx?storyid=73473) that gives the story. The TV news in NH also reported the story this morning.

[fiddlehead]

I guess the "do-badders" rule no. 1: "Carry beer (or whiskey) out of every town" may have to be done on the "stealth" Oh well, we've stealthed before.

[Lone Wolf]

Wolf,

I met a real nice former thru hiker this summer at a bar who had driven his truck a couple hundred miles to dole out magic from the back of his truck. Over the years he met thousands.

Cool.

But then one of this year's thrus at the bar chimed in that he was looking forward to returning next year to do the same.

Cool, I think. :-?

Then I got to thinking what the trail would be like if that became less of a novelty and more of the norm.

Its OK to have an opinion on this.
it's totally the norm these days. there's nothing novel or "magical" about feeds

[Tin Man]

it's totally the norm these days. there's nothing novel or "magical" about feeds

Kind of kills the notion and art of yogi-ing too, if you are into that sort of thing.