How to lose a guy on the AT [Archive]

Pokey2006

10-13-2006, 03:29

Can we try this again? A discussion about this article, among us girls, that can focus on the issue at hand? Please forgive me if you gals have already dealt with this. If so, please send me links to those past forums and disregard this post.

www.valleyadvocate.com (http://www.valleyadvocate.com/)

I know for a fact there are guys who "attach" themselves to girls, following them around everywhere. It was mostly benign, more an annoyance than a safety issue. It was either patronizing, with guys wanting to play "protector" or father figure, or just plain pathetic, as in guys with no social skills looking to confident women for help and guidance.

It was not unheard of for female hikers to slow down or speed up or even take zero days just to "lose" a guy who was trying to attach himself to her.

I'm wondering what other FEMALE hikers think about this. Anyone else experience this? How did you handle it? Do you think our reluctance to speak up plays into this at all? How can we fix it?

For the record: My approach was to be standoffish with EVERYONE. I made it clear to everyone, guys and girls, that I wanted to be left alone. Lost me a few friends, probably, but also left me at a lower risk of having an unwanted "friend."

Ya, I know I'm up too late and should go to bed, but I still hope to hear any other ideas for dealing with this annoying problem.

firefly

10-13-2006, 10:20

Hmmmm...when I was younger I had this problem with guys but not so much anymore. It also reminds me of how it felt to be "dodged" by someone or a group of people. I have always been a non-traditional female because I love the outdoors and would rather spend my money on gear and my time in the woods versus spending it on clothes and hanging out every weekend at bars. Those traits were very unusual for a female my age and for where I lived. It was very tough to fit in in social situations when at home. When I look back on both those situations now I can only offer up what I wish I had done and what I wish had been done to me. You waste alot of emotional energy playing dodge because if you are a nice person you feel guilty..then you have to remind yourself why you are dodging the person in the first place and then you get angry and say and do things that you normally wouldn't do and then you are back to feeling guilty again but now you are disappointed in yourself and ON and ON it goes. I would just prefer somebody to be honest with me...to just find some way to convey what the problem is..hopefully in a nice way the first time around but maybe then not so nice if I refuse to get the message. My feelings may get hurt...I made get mad but at least it is out there and I have the chance to change my behavior..get over it ect ect ect. This is much prefferable to the "dodge" game where you have this long drawn out emotional game for people on both sides. Do I have the guts to actually handle a situation this way..I am not sure...AND sometimes you have to be smart enough to realize that some people are just JERKS or CREEPS...they don't really care how their behavior effects you and nothing you do is going to change that...In that situation I just put up a huge wall and seperate myself from them as much as possible...when you don't interact with them they usually go away.

gsingjane

10-13-2006, 10:46

I've been really distressed at the tone and content of much of the discussion of this article on the web. Men AND women have gone out of their way to disparage and malign the author, rather than dealing with any of the (very real) issues she raised. It has made me very disgusted with internet hiking forums, not to mention feeling somewhat leery of hikers I might meet.

Here is a bit of personal feedback: we had a male hiker attach himself to us this summer (I took my 11 yo dd and my 7 yo dd out for the latter's very first bp trip) and it made me feel quite uncomfortable. I didn't know whether he was attracted to me, or possibly to my daughters (which made me REALLY uncomfortable) or whether he was just trying to be nice in a misguided and tone-deaf kind of way. I tried saying gently that we wanted to hike our own hike, I let him get out ahead of us, I referred to my husband on numerous occasions, none of it worked. We eventually ended our hike but I have no doubt he would have stuck with us 100% of the way... and from what he said, this was something he did pretty much every time he went out. I just have no idea what the right move would have been - the trail is not that big a place and particularly given that we were three females alone in the woods, I felt we had to "grin and bear it."

From the discussions that I've had with long distance, male hikers (friends, not necessarily fellow hikers) I think that it is not at all uncommon for guys to attach themselves to women hikers, basically with the thought in mind that it will lead to sex. If it doesn't lead to sex within what the guy would consider a reasonable period of time, often he will move on. So it would seem like good advice in general to avoid intimacy with any guy you might meet. I also think that often the men hikers in this situation know exactly what signals the woman is sending out, yet deliberately choose to ignore them in hopes that she'll relent. So maybe the takeaway from that is to be clearer than clear about your intentions and goals.

All I can say is, I just wish this didn't ever happen to anybody who didn't want it. I love backpacking and the outdoors and just being free to enjoy nature, and unwanted social interactions basically spoil the entire thing for me.

FWIW!

Jane in CT

virtualfrog

10-13-2006, 11:14

I also think that often the men hikers in this situation know exactly what signals the woman is sending out, yet deliberately choose to ignore them in hopes that she'll relent.

I don't know that I'd give us that much credit! Myself anyways, I'm utterly clueless, even when women think they're being incredibly blunt. A woman's version of blunt vs. a man's, is often very different things.

Dancer

10-13-2006, 14:20

This may not be a popular post but I think that the author brought some of this upon herself.

The whole Uncle John situation probably could have been avoided by not sleeping with him. If you sleep with a strange man he may very well turn out to be really strange.

She also admits to 'cozying' up to men to lose other men. I don't have a whole lot of hiking experience but common sense says not to cozy up to any man if you are there to 'hike your own hike'. I think she's an idiot.

I'm sure that women that don't act ****ty have problems like this on the trail and for them I feel sorry. I've already seen some '07 hikers talking about 'trailbabe' contests etc. on this sight. I hope the SOBO crowd won't be into that.

I don't know that I will attract that much male attention on the trail. I hope that I can make lasting friendships without having awkward encounters with men. I do know that I won't be 'cozying' up to just whoever happens 'to be there'.

Men do not have to right to make women feel afraid or uncomfortable. Women should let it be known before things get out of hand that they expect to be treated with respect. It isn't fair but in situations like this women have to conduct themselves differently than men.

Just Jeff

10-13-2006, 14:34

Ladies, some men are creeps. But most of us are just dense. Like virtualfrog said, we're not too keen when it comes to hints. If you want us to leave you alone, say it. "I'm sure you're a great guy, but I'm not into you. Please don't hike with me anymore." That will go a LOT farther in getting rid of a guy than simply taking a zero and leaving him wondering. And personally, I'd respect and appreciate the forthrightness.

OTOH, many guys would readily defend a woman who felt uncomfortable around a man. Again, just be forthright about it. "This guy's following me and he's making me uncomfortable. Can I hike with you for a while?" As amazonwoman said, this approach would be much better than cozying up to someone and sending them (and everyone who saw it) the wrong message.

And if these don't work, wait until you're with a group of people and tell the guy, "Look, I don't want to hike with you. Leave me alone." Witnesses have a way of making the message sink in.

Just an opinion from a male. CLEAR boundaries work much better than hints and avoidance. Especially since we don't pick up on hints and don't always interpret avoidance like you want us to.

SGT Rock

10-13-2006, 14:50

Can we try this again? A discussion about this article, among us girls.

I don't know that I'd give us that much credit! Myself anyways, I'm utterly clueless, even when women think they're being incredibly blunt. A woman's version of blunt vs. a man's, is often very different things.

Ladies, some men are creeps. But most of us are just dense. Like virtualfrog said, we're not too keen when it comes to hints. If you want us to leave you alone, say it. "I'm sure you're a great guy, but I'm not into you. Please don't hike with me anymore." That will go a LOT farther in getting rid of a guy than simply taking a zero and leaving him wondering. And personally, I'd respect and appreciate the forthrightness.

OTOH, many guys would readily defend a woman who felt uncomfortable around a man. Again, just be forthright about it. "This guy's following me and he's making me uncomfortable. Can I hike with you for a while?" As amazonwoman said, this approach would be much better than cozying up to someone and sending them (and everyone who saw it) the wrong message.

And if these don't work, wait until you're with a group of people and tell the guy, "Look, I don't want to hike with you. Leave me alone." Witnesses have a way of making the message sink in.

Just an opinion from a male. CLEAR boundaries work much better than hints and avoidance. Especially since we don't pick up on hints and don't always interpret avoidance like you want us to.
Hey guys. I pulled out the first line for the first quote.

I think with all the negative crap or things that could be construed as that when men start adding with their $0.02 to this subject that we should give the women a chance to discuss this out on their own. Because, unfortunately, I foresee this thread being taken over by guys. It will start off with the good intentioned men and then end up with the off the cuff comments, and eventually end up with someone saying something offensive and then he will be upset when someone censors him or closes the post because he feels HE was the one that was wronged instead of just simply trying to discuss the subject at hand. So, take that as a "request" from the admins to let the women discuss this. However, I also think a great idea for a thread would be: A real man's advice on how to not bother women on the trail and on how to get rid of such guys. So I am going to copy some of the posts over to a new thread about that. BUT I bet you dollars to donuts that the thread will end up way off the mark (except) for the plan to put it in the STRAIGHT FORWARD forum.

mdionne

10-13-2006, 14:57

See now, you're already getting stalked.:D

This is a forum for female hikers. Guys shouldn't post in here, anyways!

spandau

10-13-2006, 19:21

This is going to be more blunt than I've ever been on this forum, because this issue really makes me angry.

I have yet to have the Leech Problem (TM) while hiking, and I hope I never do. However, when I've had this problem in other settings, I have found that bluntness, from "Sorry, I'm not interested" up to and including "***** off, jerk" is about the only response that does the trick. People who latch onto others like leeches are usually too socially oblivious to catch more polite cues, but that's their problem, not mine.

More rarely, IME, the person pushing himself on someone is more akin to a bully: he likes the discomfort he causes, and gets some sort of satisfaction from making another person fearful and uncomfortable. Sometimes, there's a sense that the leech feels entitled to interaction with anyone he finds attractive. From my POV, I have to say: keep it to yourself. Really. Nobody cares about your randy fantasies. I'm here to hike/do my job/work out/whatever, not cater to your loser *ss. I know I sound harsh, but I've lived long enough to be truly sick of this garbage, along with the assumption that the targets of leeches are supposed to be all nice and understanding about their rudeness. And, IMO, that is what it is: pure rudeness.

I hope that none of us ever has this problem while on the trail, but that hope is, unfortunately, probably wildly optimistic. Unfortunately, jerks are legion - and everywhere. I hate that they give decent men a bad name, but I hate even more that they can cause the apprehension and fear that I have seen in women who are just trying to go about their lives.

TIDE-HSV

10-14-2006, 00:28

ein weisse Kammer...

Smile

10-14-2006, 00:59

Do you really think you want to give away your 'secrets' for ditching guys away on a public forum?.....sort of defeats the purpose, educates, and may negate your future efforts.

If you've hiked on trail you know that the creeps are few and far between.
If you've been to one or more of the gatherings, you'll meet some of the nicest guys on earth - brothers, fathers, husbands, sons - from all walks of life. Sure there are a few you could do without, but the hiking community IMHO doesn't seem to tolerate them for long.

Give the guys a break already, they read this and you might set yourself up as unkind or as someone to avoid before you even start.

Ladies, we can create a negative separation with our words here. What if there's a topic about how to ditch a woman on the trail? I would bet on quite a bit of defensiveness.

Kindness and respect between all! :-)

Suggestion; Maybe save it for a closed forum like the Yahoo hikers group or something?

Pokey2006

10-18-2006, 01:34

It's a sad day when we cannot discuss an issue like this on Whiteblaze; when we have to take it to Yahoo or somewhere else instead. I see your point, though. I was extremely disturbed by what happened to this same discussion on the other thread.

Sure, women can be clingy, too -- Bill Bryson gave us a descriptive account of his own experience with this. Yet that's not what I saw on the trail. I saw clingy men. More then I would have expected.

Funny that the women who had to shake off these guys were not in the least bit ****y. Any woman who was looking to hook up with a guy ended up being part of a couple, not as a single woman being stalked by needy, clingy men.

Personally, after what I saw, I WANT to be known as "someone to avoid" before I even start. Keep those creepy guys away from me!

I have to agree with Firefly's comment about the wasted emotional energy. Maybe that's what's really bothering me -- the time and energy I spent feeling guilty and ANGRY. And I wasn't even "stalked" the way I saw others being stalked! Yet I'm still pissed.

jambalaya

10-22-2006, 00:39

So I finally joined whiteblaze, to post on this article that interested me so much. For the record, I avoided these problems by dragging my husband along with me. But we tended to keep to ourselves as well, though we were friendly with other hikers, of course... If I were to do another thru-hike, alone, I'd probably do much the same thing. But the trail is such a friendly place, with so many GOOD people -- couples, married guys, single girls, single guys who aren't creeps... I would suggest, if a leech begins to attach, that the single girl hiker pick a friend or couple she can trust, and just sort of hang with them until the guy goes away. Which he really should, if she just tells him she's not interested.

When I read the article, though, it seemed a bit disingenuous... I know I didn't hike alone, and had a different experience, but the author made the social atmosphere of the trail sound a bit like a locker room or boys' club, which I didn't find it to be at all. The comments that were made to her that one night were inappropriate, and would have set me on edge too. The question is, should that experience color a whole hike? On another forum, I read some responses from women who said they were afraid to hike the trail after reading her article, and now wouldn't try it. Would any of you who have been persued on the trail advise other women to stay away from the AT?

BTW, is this Pokey of the shin splints who wears lots of purple? If so I think we met outside of Bland, VA.

jambalaya

10-22-2006, 00:40

So I finally joined whiteblaze, to post on this article that interested me so much. For the record, I avoided these problems by dragging my husband along with me. But we tended to keep to ourselves as well, though we were friendly with other hikers, of course... If I were to do another thru-hike, alone, I'd probably do much the same thing. But the trail is such a friendly place, with so many GOOD people -- couples, married guys, single girls, single guys who aren't creeps... I would suggest, if a leech begins to attach, that the single girl hiker pick a friend or couple she can trust, and just sort of hang with them until the guy goes away. Which he really should, if she just tells him she's not interested.

When I read the article, though, it seemed a bit disingenuous... I know I didn't hike alone, and had a different experience, but the author made the social atmosphere of the trail sound more scary and sexist than I found it to be. The comments that were made to her that one night were inappropriate, and would have set me on edge too. The question is, should that experience color a whole hike? On another forum, I read some responses from women who said they were afraid to hike the trail after reading her article, and now wouldn't try it. Would any of you who have been persued on the trail advise other women to stay away from the AT?

BTW, is this Pokey of the shin splints who wears lots of purple? If so I think we met outside of Bland, VA.

Frolicking Dinosaurs

10-22-2006, 01:00

I worked my way thru college as a cocktail waitress in the lounge of a Hyatt - I got hit on all the time. For older fellows, try giving them a puzzled look followed by a look of recognition and say "Aren't you a friend of my Dad's?" or "Didn't you go to college with my Dad?" Both lines cooled off older Romeos pronto.

For fellows closer to my age, I have been known to tell them to "take a hike" (equal to F*** off in today's world) after "I'm not interested" failed. I also have said "You can get arrested for that - the last fellow who did it is still in jail" for gents that got a bit loose with their hands. (Alas, Hyatt's employee policies forbad ripping off their heads and pooping down their necks.)

In my experience on the trail, there are plenty of good fellows out there that will walk with you if you ask. As Just Jeff noted above, fellows realize that some guys are creeps and they will gladly help you dump a creep - and you do not have to sleep with them in return (not sure what the girl who wrote that article was doing, but it sure wasn't having anything akin to normal trail relationships).

Pokey2006

10-22-2006, 05:40

Welcome to Whiteblaze, Jambalaya! No, I'm not the Pokey you met. I think it's a pretty common trail name.

Very good question, about whether I would warn other women away from the trail. No way, absolutely NOT! Honestly, the creepy guys out there didn't scare me as much as they just pissed me right off. They were mostly just annoying, not dangerous.

Not that there aren't dangers on the trail for women -- and I am vocal about that bit, too -- but in this case, I think we're talking about the men who cling, and the men who have not learned their manners, not the men who rape and murder. In fact, many of these clingy men seem to think they're doing us a favor by watching over us, or following us to make sure we're OK. When, in fact, if something happened, we'd probably be the ones to protect THEM, not the other way around...

I really love the line "Aren't you a friend of my dad's?" He he he! That might work, since the guys who bugged me the most were indeed my father's age.

Bottom line, instead of being afraid to hike the trail, more girls should head out there. I firmly believe that more of a "balance" is needed on the trail, that the root of the problem is simply testosterone run amok, without enough estrogen to keep it contained. We need more estrogen on the trail!

Pokey2006

10-22-2006, 05:45

But I would add that I do advise women who hike the trail to be prepared to fend off unwanted attention...just go prepared with the "lines" and responses and strategies you'll use, such as some of those being shared by others in this very forum...

Mouse

10-22-2006, 07:39

I only felt a need to get away from a man once and it was for something annoying, not dangerous. So no, I do not think I found men a danger of any sort on the trail. ESPECIALLY not thruhikers; I doubt most dangerous men would bother hiking.

Anyway, all I did when he showed up at the same shelter as me was hike on a few miles and camp by myself alongside the Trail, then get an early start the next day to put some distance in. I did the same once when noisy summer-campers overwhelmed a shelter.

Hammock Hanger

10-22-2006, 08:21

I have said this before and I'll say it again, I was so lucky to hike with such great guys. I stated up front that I was happily married and only out to hike. -- I did have one guy say that he was interested, I repeated that I was only there to hike. He never brought it up again and we became good friends "with no uncomfortable under currents".

I think the "Pink Blazing" thing has been over exaggerated. It happens but is on a low scale. Of course I am older and probably do not see as much of it.

My only advice if you do not want this to happen is, DO NOT SLEEP AROUND on the trail. It will spread as fast as it did when you were back in high school. Then the guys with that on the brain will seek you out.

Just my 2cents.

1Pint

10-22-2006, 11:47

Bottom line, instead of being afraid to hike the trail, more girls should head out there. I firmly believe that more of a "balance" is needed on the trail, that the root of the problem is simply testosterone run amok, without enough estrogen to keep it contained. We need more estrogen on the trail!

I was stunned when I heard that women were a minority on the trail. I'd assumed we made up half the community. The severe imbalance gave me a big pause before I decided to go through with it. I've already done my time in a very gender-lopsided/male-dominated community and wasn't looking to volunteer for that again. However, I'm not going to let the imbalance keep me away.

So, I'm with Pokey - we need more women on the trail. How about an ad campaign.... Got Women? Okay, maybe not. And maybe that's only one of the many reasons why I'm not in advertising.

But, really, I think it would be great if we all did a bunch of outreach to our local schools and girls organizations after we returned from our hikes. Sorry, I just realized I'm drifting from the original topic which was how to get rid of a guy on the trail and whether or not women should stay away due to the danger. I won't be staying away from the trail.

Pokey2006

10-22-2006, 18:04

No, no, it's OK to drift sometimes. I've been thinking of that, too, that there needs to be more outreach for girls. I saw lots of Boy Scout troops on the trail, but not one Girl Scout troop. It's time for that to change.

As for the suggestion to "not sleep around on the trail." That actually has little to do with it, IMHO. The women I saw needing to dodge "stalkers" the most were NOT sleeping around. I had to shake off a few weirdos myself, and, believe me, I was not sleeping around. Not giving off the scent at all, not even a little bit. So something else is going on there that has nothing to do with your usual "mating dance."

Hammock Hanger

10-22-2006, 19:54

As for the suggestion to "not sleep around on the trail." That actually has little to do with it, IMHO. The women I saw needing to dodge "stalkers" the most were NOT sleeping around. I had to shake off a few weirdos myself, and, believe me, I was not sleeping around. Not giving off the scent at all, not even a little bit. So something else is going on there that has nothing to do with your usual "mating dance."

As I said I was lucky and this was not a problem I encountered. It could have been due to age, looks, respect, odor... whatever. I only witnessed a few of the problems some of you seem to have had or heard about. Of those 3 of the girls were sleeping around (which is their right, it just brings unwanted problems with it.) One had in no way encouraged the guy and was doing her best to lose him. Sleeping around is not the only reason a guy will attach himself but believe me it is a sure means of it after.

I was very very active as an Out-of-door Specialist in our Girl Scout Council but the women's movement still has not hit this area as much as the Boy Scouts. I have been an Outdoor Specialist in a youth summer camp for 8 years, the girls still shy away from it. I have successfully gotten a number of young ladies out in the wilderness who never thought that they would enjoy it, I only wish I could get more.

We can only keep trying.

Pokey2006

10-22-2006, 23:26

Cool. I'll make note that you have experience with trying to get young girls interested in the outdoors. I'd love to do something positive like that which would make a real difference out there on the trail for the next generation of women...

I agree that "sleeping around" would bring on its own set of problems. And that would solve the problem, if it was strictly about sex. But I don't think it's that simple. I think the real problem is not that guys are out there looking to get laid, but that so many of them just toss out all their social skills once they get on the trail.

Ironically, I thought the older guys were worse. You'd think the young men (to me, that would be college-age) would be on the prowl, but I found most of them to be nice, polite and fun to hang out with. On the other hand, a handful of the older guys (40s to 70s), were a bit scary in the sense that they had no social skills whatsoever, and so they thought it was OK to latch on to the nearest females.

Just one example: I spent several hours one day trying to dodge one hiker. This guy was in his mid-60s, and hiked considerably faster then me. Yet he was always there, either just ahead taking a break until I caught up, or just behind me, even though when he was in front, he should have been miles ahead within minutes, given the differences in our paces. Finally, I bumped into some friends I hadn't seen in weeks, and we hung out for a loooong time catching up with each other. I think finally that guy got sick of waiting for me to catch up with him. I have no doubt he spent a considerable amount of time up ahead waiting.

Now, I really don't think that guy was hoping to get lucky with me. If he was, he wasn't obvious enough about it for me to say "not interested." And he wasn't actually hiking with me, though he was obviously trying to. Now, how do you tell that guy to bug off? Are you supposed to yell at him to hike faster? Taking an extended break was about the only thing I could think of, and, thankfully, it did do the trick. I never saw the guy again.

Frolicking Dinosaurs

10-23-2006, 06:17

I'll throw another aspect of male behavior toward females into this mix - the perception among men (especially older men) that women (especially women their daughter / granddaughters' age or who remind them of their mom or a sister) are in need of protection. Their attention can be annoying, but, as Pokey notes, it has nothing to do with the mating dance.

Pokey asked what to do about such attention - a frank discussion of the dynamic (I know you feel I need a protector...) followed by a clear message that "I'm OK alone out here" might work. Do this without any rancor and I predict it will rid you of that sort of attention.

Being a bit older and accustomed to socializing with men whose training taught them to protect women, I understand the dynamic. These are good guys practicing an archaic social dynamic. Old habits die hard and some of the older fellows on the trail will need a bit of help - especially in the beginning of the thru hiking season - understanding that the women of today don't need their protection.

Pokey2006

10-23-2006, 07:10

Man, so much work to fend off these guys! Fending off the ones trying to get lucky, fending off the ones trying to protect me from the ones trying to getting lucky. No wonder why I was wiped out before I even reached the end of the trail!

Like you said, my own experience was largely with the ones with the "archiac" social skills, the ones thinking they were being chivalrous acting as my protector. Which is what bugs me about the suggestion that to ditch a creepy guy, we should ask other men on the trail for help. But it's the men trying to "help" who are causing the problem in the first place!

The other problem I saw a lot of were the guys with low confidence, who latched on to women who appeared to have more hiking experience/confidence then they did. Though I suppose that can work either way, and isn't exclusively a female vs. male issue.

Frolicking Dinosaurs

10-23-2006, 07:26

Pokey makes a good point
"Which is what bugs me about the suggestion that to ditch a creepy guy, we should ask other men on the trail for help. But it's the men trying to "help" who are causing the problem in the first place!" To discourage the amorous types and the protectors, hiking with another woman might work as well as hiking with a fellow. Perhaps we ladies should stick closer together?

With the low confidence types, handing them off to a trail guru who will like the adoration and attention would likely work.

Pokey2006

10-23-2006, 07:40

Hand them to each other! Give the horny buck to the "protector," and let them have at it while us gals cling together and run away!

I will say that it helped to have other women on the trail to talk to about this. To compare notes among the girls over drinks in town, it was a relief to know that I wasn't crazy, or doing something wrong. What I learned was that most gals experienced something similar, often with the same guys.

Unfortunately, it took a LOT of time before the floodgates opened and other women and myself started being honest with each other about our frustrations with some of the men on the trail. In some cases, we experienced weird stuff together, simultaneously, yet didn't talk about it for days or even weeks.

Frolicking Dinosaurs

10-23-2006, 08:26

Unfortunately, it took a LOT of time before the floodgates opened and other women and myself started being honest with each other about our frustrations with some of the men on the trail. In some cases, we experienced weird stuff together, simultaneously, yet didn't talk about it for days or even weeks.This is a dynamic we can (and should) change by bringing up the topic when we are among women. Empowerment is fostered by open communication and the realization that you are not crazy or alone.

Pokey2006

10-23-2006, 08:35

Well said. Thank goodness for the "female only" forum! I do think this is helping, and to heck with guys who are making fun of us elsewhere on WB!

Female bonding. Some things will never, ever change.

aufgahoban

10-23-2006, 09:04

No, no, it's OK to drift sometimes. I've been thinking of that, too, that there needs to be more outreach for girls. I saw lots of Boy Scout troops on the trail, but not one Girl Scout troop. It's time for that to change.

Girl Scout camps are dissappearing like wildfire. The ones they have left are becoming more and more posh and are having less and less to do with camping. They do acting, dancing, arts and crafts, computer sessions etc. and have done away for the most part, with leaving camp at all, much less with a backpack on your back. The Girl Scouts have done research and have determined that rustic camps are not what girls are into these days, so they are virtually phasing them out and installing flush toilets at an alarming rate. It's sad girls, but I think we are a dying breed.. It's up to us to raise our own daughters to love the outdoors. We can't depend on the Girl Scouts to help us out any more.

As for 'unwanted men'. In their defense.. I am a single woman who enjoys hiking alone, however, if a good man comes along and is going the same way, he'll usually slow his pace and end up hiking with me. (I tend to meander and stop for pictures etc so I'm easily catchable) Then of course I end up stepping up my pace so I don't hold him back when we start hiking together. It's actually very good for me at times to get me moving faster. It's a vicious cycle. Anyway, these type of guys usually don't hit on me. In fact, most likely the guy is married and like with the last one- his thought process was that if his wife was out hiking alone, wouldn't he appreciate it if someone watched out for her a little. He certainly meant no harm or disrespect. Quite the opposite. And there were no hidden agendas or anything of the sort. Had it been an extended hike to where this could have gone on for days, I would have had to tell him that I was fine and would like to hike alone and I'm sure that would have been fine by him. However, it was towards the end of a multi day hike that I ran into him, so I didn't say a word. I just made a new friend. Another time I ran into an older man and we ended up having quite the nice hike together. Turns out he had a daughter about my age, and he just went into father mode without even realizing it.
And yes, I've run into my share of jerks. Last time I took my daughter backpacking 2 rather intoxicated rednecks came stumbling out of the woods shortly after we had set up camp. No backpacks or anything, just sunburns and an empty ice chest. They decided they'd stop at our campsite for a while (totally uninvited). We were fairly far from anything (in the middle of a wilderness) and didn't think anyone else would likely happen by and save us. I told him my son and husband were at the river and due back shortly. They left. (I think they were out of beer) We were rather worried all night.
So in other words, if he's a jerk to begin with, it's going to be hard to get rid of him without being blunt while in a group (as suggested before). If he's a good guy, and the odds are he is, or he wouldn't be out hiking, just be honest with him, or possibly just make a new friend and hike a couple of miles with him. There are way worse fates, I assure you. Like falling down and needing help, but since you've alienated all the men on the trail, no one will stop to help. Yikes! :-)

Pokey2006

10-23-2006, 09:15

There! We just found the solution! Drink all their beer, and they'll go away!

No, really, I'm totally disturbed by your thought that Girl Scout camps are disappearing. They should be growing stronger, not disappearing! Though Girl Scouts never did have much to do with the outdoors, did they? My Girl Scout troop did little more than munch on crackers in the living room of the school superintendent, where God forbid we dropped one cracker crumb on the floor as we sat around talking about our crushes on boys! A far cry from life on the Appalachian Trail! Or at least, what life on the AT should be...

Thank you to my folks for raising a daughter to love hiking and biking and standing on the top of mountains!

Pokey2006

10-23-2006, 09:17

PS: Just because a guy is hiking the trail does NOT automatically mean he's a "nice guy." The same goes for girls, too, but don't ever assume that you can trust a guy just because he's hiking the trail. Uh Huh.

aufgahoban

10-23-2006, 09:29

You are correct, Pokey. You never can tell about people no matter where you are. But you can usually figure them out pretty quickly.

As for Girl Scout camps. I was blessed to have gone to one of a dying breed. Of course, this was many years ago and the camp no longer exists. I did a 60 mile backpacking trip when I was 14. Another 100 mile 10 day trip with a covered wagon (we walked) when I was 15. Then along came "in the name of safety" and all that fun stuff was weeded out and they went with an occasional smore and some day hikes. I did find ONE camp in the southwest, near Denver, that still offers a backpacking session. And it's fairly watered down. Most don't offer anything outside of the camp fences period.. Any real trips they offer are now called Studio 2B and they aren't usually even girl scout run, but rather subed out to Outward Bound or some other youth program. I think the programs are good, but seem much more expensive than what most scouts are use to. (a standard gs camp runs about 250 a week whereas an adventure camp runs about $100 a day)

Pokey2006

10-23-2006, 09:43

Wow! A covered wagon! Cool!

I really do consider myself lucky, having the parents I did. My mother was negative about every single thing I did for the first 33 years of my life, until I went to her and, hesitantly, told her I was going to thru-hike the AT. She was thrilled! Thank God.

Most girls don't have that. It's OK to not have it at home -- not every family owns a bicycle shop and spends their summers either bicycle touring or hiking the White Mtns. like I did -- but to not have it anywhere at all ???? That, to me, is just unacceptable. And maybe that's why we have such a glaring imbalance of hormones on the AT.

So, once again, I find myself as a woman on a mission. Or, rather, two missions: one mission to build a bridge over the Palisades Parkway, and another to expose more young ladies to the joys of the outdoors.

1Pint

10-23-2006, 10:16

With the low confidence types, handing them off to a trail guru who will like the adoration and attention would likely work.

Yeah, but Wingfoot's not always there when you need him.

Pokey2006

10-23-2006, 10:43

I was thinking more Baltimore Jack might be up for it....sorry Jack -- I had to -- they made me say it....

1Pint

10-23-2006, 11:14

Pokey makes a good point To discourage the amorous types and the protectors, hiking with another woman might work as well as hiking with a fellow. Perhaps we ladies should stick closer together?

You can't be a solo hiker if you're hiking with a woman or a man. And so we come back to the unique problems facing solo female hikers. For one, we have to balance the true (neither exaggerated nor minimized) safety threat with our desire to hike alone.

I will start out as a solo hiker, but if I meet some great people on the trail (and if WB is a fair sampling, I will), I may very well wish to hike with them for a bit here and there. But I want to hike with folks because I enjoy their company, not because I need them.

If I'm unlucky enough to attrack an unwanted hiking partner, I think I'd do some of the things I've read worked for others:
(1) be kind but direct
(2) change up my hiking pace
(3) skip ahead (but I'd HATE missing even a couple days of the trail just 'cause some jerk didn't get the message)

And if I was the unwanted hiking partner not understanding what someone was hinting at, I would appreciate if the recipient of my undesired friendship would clue me in by directly saying something to me one-on-one.

Pokey2006

10-23-2006, 11:28

I agree that changing up your pace, especially having to slow down or even take days off, just isn't fair.

That's when the anger sets in, and you feel the need to be a crazy chick posting nasty messages on WB, like me!

At least you're going out there, knowing what to expect. That might be your greatest weapon. Maybe, because now you know what to look for, you'll find yourself better equipped to handle any guy problems you may come across. I hope.

spandau

10-23-2006, 12:34

I agree that changing up your pace, especially having to slow down or even take days off, just isn't fair.

That's when the anger sets in, and you feel the need to be a crazy chick posting nasty messages on WB, like me!

You really hit the nail on the head for me with those statements, Pokey, you cool nasty chick, you.:sun

Rereading what I wrote earlier in the thread, I realize that I might have sounded harsh and/or nasty myself, and that wasn't my intention. I really am polite upon first meeting, and I don't snarl at people I don't know, at least, not without good cause. :) I admit that I get tired of the attitude that women are supposed to always be 'nice' and responsible for everyone else's feelings. What about the woman's feelings about being followed around by an unwanted companion? I don't think that the possibility of his feelings being hurt should trump her right to tell him that she'd rather be alone, if she ends up having to do that.

It makes me angry, too, Pokey, because it seems like every time I turn around there is somebody or some group taking it upon themselves to tell me what I should or shouldn't do because I am female. They seem much more concerned about me being female than I am! It was disheartening for me to read that article and to realize that there truly is no safe haven from this sort of nonsense, not even the AT.

How I wish that people would just relate to each other as PEOPLE, instead of getting so caught up in male and female.

Dancer

10-23-2006, 17:46

Hammock Hanger

10-23-2006, 17:57

dixicritter

10-23-2006, 21:17

I've got an idea!

If you can't shake a guy try belching or farting or picking your nose and saying loudly of any of the three, "THAT WAS A GOOD ONE!"

Not feminine I know but it might do the trick. Or try talking about the 'scorching case of the runs' that you've got. :)

Men also shy away from 'period' talk so find another female and discuss pads and tampons. That will shake a man.

Living in a house of all guys, I can tell you that the first suggestion will not work. My guys would applaud you, or start a contest with you to see who could belch and fart the loudest / longest / nastiest. :eek:

However, the last suggestion is a very good one in my opinion. LMAO.

Sly

10-23-2006, 21:23

Wanna get rid of a guy without totally demeaning yourself? Two words, "yeast infection." :eek: Yuck!

dixicritter

10-23-2006, 21:33

Thank you, that's just gross. :eek:

Guys were asked to not to post on this thread, and were given one in the Straight Forward forum to post to. Please post your comments there, thanks. This thread is a conversation between the ladies at the thread starters request.

lonewolf02

10-23-2006, 22:25

when he is sleeping throw his boots down the mountain, that will give you a few miles

Sly

10-23-2006, 23:41

bfitz

10-24-2006, 03:31

Frolicking Dinosaurs

10-24-2006, 09:06

Sly said: yeast infection; DixieCritter said: that's gross; FD says: gross, but bet some appropriate scratching along with mentioning you can't wait to get to the next town for some monistat would discourage most Romeos that didn't get the hint when you said "I'm not interested"

I know a girl (friend of one of my grandchildren) that works in a trendy bar in underground Atlanta. She looks like a young Heather Locklear and is happily married, but saying that doesn't discourage the fellows so she complains to them about her Herpes outbreaks if they won't take the hint to leave her alone... (no, she doesn't have herpes, but this does discourage even the drunkest Romeos)

Hammock Hanger

10-24-2006, 09:12

jambalaya

10-24-2006, 22:44

Are you guys serious about acting like boors or talking about personal hygiene to scare off men? I don't think it would work -- I have had many a discussion on the trail (in all seriousness) about smelly farts, bodily functions, and other things I would never discuss among acquantiances in real life.... Distance hikers seem to bond over these things, and I doubt even tampons and periods would frighten them. Though it might work on the subway or someplace.

Hammock Hanger

10-24-2006, 23:04

...discussion on the trail (in all seriousness) about smelly farts, bodily functions, and other things I would never discuss among acquantainces in real life.... Distance hikers seem to bond over these things, and I doubt even tampons and periods would frighten them. Though it might work on the subway or someplace.

yeap, my kids call it Trail Potty Talk. We discuss crap, snot, pee... you name it. Like any poor comedian knows, if ya need to get a laugh bring up some type of bodily function.:p

Gaiter

10-25-2006, 01:03

a classmate and comedian that hasn't had the best luck with the ladies has made his rejections part of his comedy routine. despite the fact that he is funny and a nice guy. he looks 10-15years older than he is, i thought he was at least thirty when i first meet him, but we were both 18.
here are just a few of his real life rejections from when he has asked a woman out

-'i have cancer' (yep she made that one up)
-'You are too nice'
-'I'm getting my tonsils removed tomorrow, can we just be friends'
-'There aren't enough drugs in the world to date you'

and no he isn't a stalker, he gets 'it' when he is rejected
The stand up comedian hobby is really helping him release his frustration.

maxNcathy

10-25-2006, 12:48

I am male and can relate to this too well.When 12 yrs old a neighbor boy followed me like a sick dog for eight years. My parents advised me to be nice to him as he was lonely and would learn alot from me as he was a misfit. So daily I was torn as to what to do or say...hints never worked and made me feel guilty.
When I left for college, thankfully he never followed.
My advice now would be to speak kindly but frankly and clearly. I wish you well but Do NOT ever hang around me.

Pokey2006

10-25-2006, 15:09

Ya, guys aren't supposed to post on this thread, but that was nicely said.

I had been searching for a way to "categorize" the men I'm talking about besides calling them "creepy." Lonely puppy dogs -- that's the term I was looking for!

However, in your case, perhaps being nice to him made it worse by encouraging him to keep following you? I think that's the problem women sometimes run into -- it's against our nature to be mean, so we always want to be nice and not offend anyone. That makes it worse, it seems to me.

Dancer

10-25-2006, 17:19

I think also that it could be added that besides women being raised not to be 'mean' that in a solo hiking situation that it seems dangerous to be 'mean'. If you tell a guy to get lost or that you aren't interested who knows when you might meet up with him when no one is around to help you should he decide to get violent.

It isn't fair that we have to think like that and I plan to give this alot of thought before I hit the trail next year. I don't think I'll end up 'hottest hiker babe' or get that much attention from guys but unwanted male attention is something to be prepared to handle in any situation.

cling_on

10-27-2006, 02:00

No, it's not fair that we have to think like that. But we DON'T have to think like that. Really. Let's not be afriad of guys, okay? Let's let them be people, too. Let's just tell them we want to be alone if we want to be alone. Let's not worry about them "getting violent". If any PERSON is going to "decide to get violent," my guess is that they'll do so regardless of your prior attitude. In the case of violence, be as prepared as you would walking the city streets alone at night, where there are definately more psychos than on the AT.

But there's no reason to be mean, or uncivil. There's also no reason to make up some bull**** about a yeast infection or something. This is why some guys think women are inscrutable, game-playing bitches... Just treat them with the respect you'd treat anyone in the real world. Tell them what you mean. And they'll treat you the same.

Pokey2006

10-27-2006, 02:14

Oh, I know I'll regret this, but just can't help it...I must be stopped!!!!!

Anyway, that said, I agree there's not much you can do to avoid violence. Yet, I think that if we start talking about violence on the AT, we'll cloud the issue at hand. There is a place for that discussion, I'm just saying one topic at a time, or both will be discredited as valid issues.

I wish there was a civilized way to do it. With most men, there is. Most guys get the point. It's the few that don't that are the problem. And I guess with those guys, we do have to get somewhat uncivilized. It is too bad.

Funny that on the other thread, the one open to everyone, the men kept saying over and over that we just need to learn how to tell guys to buzz off. That WE have a problem because we aren't more mean. With some guys, we do need to get mean before they get the point. And I do think that many problems I saw were caused by women being "too nice."

I am grateful to everyone who's posted on this version of the thread. Y'all have made some great points, shared some important experiences and there were some good suggestions in there. Thanks.

VictoriaM

10-27-2006, 13:28

bfitz

10-27-2006, 13:44

Kudos to cling_on for saying what I wanted to but couldn't seem to put into the right words.

Pokey - I don't think it has anything to do with being "mean". Blunt is not mean, and is bluntness generally appreciated by the menfolk.
Cosidering the bluntness of our perceptive and communicative facilities, it's the only way to be sure...polite and blunt aren't necessarily antithetical, as many of us men prove every day.

1Pint

10-27-2006, 14:21

Cosidering the bluntness of our perceptive and communicative facilities, it's the only way to be sure...polite and blunt aren't necessarily antithetical, as many of us men prove every day.

Sometimes, all the polite but direct communication in the world doesn't seem to be enough. As demonstrated by bfitz posting here in a thread started with a request for a discussion among women only and with at least two gentle and recent reminders that this particular thread is desired to be WOMEN only.

As a woman planning to solo, I receive the information as a good heads-up. The experiences relayed in this thread from different women let me know that this is a real issue and that's good enough for me. Jack Tarlin may be a great hiker with amazing knowledge of backpacking and the AT, but if even only 1 in 25 women on the trail have to struggle with how to respond correctly in this type of situation, then this is an issue. It may not happen to me, but I appreciate just having the chance to think through what I should do.

bfitz

10-27-2006, 14:25

.....oops!

1Pint

10-27-2006, 14:57

.....oops!

Well said.

VictoriaM

10-27-2006, 22:10

Just to clarify my last post, it should have said "bluntness is", not "is bluntness".

NEFFA

12-03-2006, 14:59

I have not been able to read the article because somehow I can't get to it from the link but I think that the issue is that some people like more togetherness and company than others. For myself I like to socialize at campsites but I prefer to hike alone. Being a middle aged married woman I didn't get any "pink blazing" and no-one hit on me or made me feel uncomfortable or scared but there were times when either men or women would hike with me when I would rather be alone. I have talked to several other hikers so I know this issue exists and I am grateful for this forum to look for solutions. The idea to be honest and communicate clearly that I'd rather be alone is a good idea but I got advice from another hiker that suits me even better. He said that when someone was hiking with him when he wished he was alone he would try to appreciate the persons company as the current reality. There were times when I wished I was alone but later came to be very grateful for the company and friendship of the other hiker.

Trajack

12-05-2006, 09:38

"I got advice from another hiker that suits me even better. He said that when someone was hiking with him when he wished he was alone he would try to appreciate the persons company as the current reality. "
NEFFA

I adopted this philosophy along time ago. Unless of course I feel threatened. I feel it is best to deal with your "current reality" by adapting your reactions to it instead of trying to change the person responsible for altering it. In the case of feeling threatened or even "creeped out" I always go with my gut instinct and put as much distance between myself and the situation/person as possible. I can scrap with the best of them, but I am aware of my limitations and would prefer to avoid altogether a confrontation that has the potential to get ugly.
I guess what I'm trying to say is; I stay in control of my hike, because in the final analysis it should be about my hike, not about what other people do to my hike.

carolinahiker

12-05-2006, 11:53

Well ive hiked alone most of the time bein a middle aged {boo hoo lol} guy ive came into camping area where a single female hiker or a pair or a group of female hikers is there and i feel its best to be freindly but not to freindly i usually hammock hang so im off to the side anyways if they want to chat or whatever im a people person but alot of women because of the times tend to veiw males on the trail thru a wary look i quess and you cant blame them,but ive also come to a camp area with two ladies hiking and a third male is there and is oblivious to not bein welcome and been welcomed like the long lost uncle {not grandfather} just i think for a securrity feeling.