View Full Version : New kind of Trail Magic
Here is a new twist on Trail Magic....
The purpose of A.T. Servants is to reach both thru-hikers and short-term hikers for Christ. Miles’ organization consists of dozens of volunteer “Trail Angels,” who minister to hikers by distributing Bibles, snacks, bottled water and first-aid at designated points along the way, usually where trail gaps and roads intersect.
Separately, “Trail Chaplains” -- like the Mileses and others -- actually accompany hikers along the trail, sharing their faith and winning over hikers via personal witnessing and a strong Christian example. Last year, the couple supervised 122 A.T. Servant volunteers and assisted almost 700 hikers
Taken from full article here: http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=24270
little bear
11-12-2006, 19:27
I think it sounds great as a Christian and a hiker I love seeing it.
Jack Tarlin
11-12-2006, 19:34
As a Christian and a hiker, I think that one's faith and spirituality is an intensely personal matter.
Setting a good example in one's life and helping others is admirable. Actively preaching and proselytizing others while on the Trail is less so.
Anyone hike with these folks this year?
Anyone hike with these folks this year?
You can visit here to learn more: http://www.atservants.org/trailchaplains.htm
You can visit here to learn more: http://www.atservants.org/trailchaplains.htm
I read the article and have my opinions about prosthelyzing on the AT, but I'd be curious to hear from folks who met them in-person.
One of thier web pages I found intersting was this one:
Many hikers have expressed that they found a newfound faith in humanity due to gratuity that they received from Trail Angels while on the trail. While there is nothing wrong with this, with the assistance of churches as Trail Angels, maybe hikers would have a newfound faith in the church and possibly even Christ. This makes the task of the church on the AT extremely important.
Trail Angels serve the physical needs of hikers by creating kiosks where the road crosses the AT. They give hikers food, bottled water, books, and offer rides to town. Through a network of Trail Angels along the entire AT, we hope that hikers will begin to rely on the church more.
From: http://www.atservants.org/trailangels.htm
eric_plano
11-12-2006, 19:54
Is it magic when their are strings attached? Not trying to stir the hornet's nest here...but I have been accosted by agreesive 'witnessers' and it is not fun.
I have no problem with those who accept that I don't want to discuss it, but those individuals seem to be the minority in my experience.
Faith Based trail magic on a federally designated trail. Did they get earmarks from Congress for this? :rolleyes:
Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-12-2006, 20:00
Helping those in need or in difficult circumstances is not a new concept in ministry by any means, but the AT is a new venue.
From the standpoint of ministry, approaching those on the AT makes sense because some hike the AT to heal themselves of various life difficulties and others hike at one of life's many crossroads. These are also times when many who would not normally reach out toward a higher power may be more willing to consider such things.
If these people are simply offering literature and conversation as opposed to pushing it on hikers, I see no problem. However, if they are pushing the literature, it will likely end up being trash along our trails. If they are pushing their religion, the word will get out among hikers and the ministry will be avoided - and will have hindered rather than helped people move nearer to God.
Lone Wolf
11-12-2006, 20:02
I wonder how they would deal with being told to "get ***ed"? I loathe aholes, especially born-agains, who preach. Actually they just give a blank stare and a smile. Pathetic.:) Can JC really turn water into wine? I want that brotha to walk wit my azz!
Not for me thanks, I don't need saving, nor harrasment while enjoying nature.
Thanks for the warning. And I thought solicitation of any kind on the trail was against the rules.
Are you saying that the Devil is in the Details, FD?
Their time would probably be better spent ministering to folks in the County Jail. But I'd still like to hear fron an '06 hiker who hiked with these folks.
I disagree with their assumption that hikers' spiritual needs aren't being met.
Since we're on religion, I heard some whack-job on C-Span this morning say Catholics weren't Christian because they pray to Mary and they're all going to end up in Hell. You could tell she was a fruitcake, trembling voice and all! :eek:
Appalachian Tater
11-12-2006, 20:20
One of the guys from this organization and his young daughter were at Unicoi Gap this spring. The only hint of religion was some anti-evolution literature in the middle of a huge offering of trail magic from first aid kits to donuts to water to Lipton's and eerything inbetween. I was very grateful for the water and we all were grateful for the snacks.
There was another situation later with a couple with which I was less pleased. It is difficult to avoid a religious discussion forced on you when you are a guest in someone's home without being a little rude.
TJ aka Teej
11-12-2006, 20:38
I disagree with their assumption that hikers' spiritual needs aren't being met.
"Remote for detachment, narrow for chosen company, winding for leisure, lonely for contemplation, it beckons not merely north and south but upward to the body, mind and soul of man." - Myron Avery, In the Maine Woods, 1934
Amen, brothers Sly and Myron
The only hint of religion was some anti-evolution literature in the middle of a huge offering of trail magic....
Some folks just don't like change. If you don't want to evolve, that's your business. ;)
generoll
11-12-2006, 20:46
Kudos to Jack. The best responce of all, in my opinion.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-12-2006, 20:59
Are you saying that the Devil is in the Details, FD?If a conservation group set up some trail magic to discuss LNT with hikers or a trail maintenance group set up some trail magic to recruit volunteers, would we be discussing if it was OK? The point is I don’t think it is automatically right or wrong because they are offering spiritual guidance along with coffee and donuts as long as they do it in a way that does not detract from the experience of those who don’t want to be guided.
Their time would probably be better spent ministering to folks in the County Jail.I agree that there are far better venues for this sort of activity than the trail. Among the homeless, victims of domestic violence and county detox facilities come immediately to mind. Maybe someone should point that out to the people who are doing this?
If a conservation group set up some trail magic to discuss LNT with hikers or a trail maintenance group set up some trail magic to recruit volunteers, would we be discussing if it was OK? The point is I don’t think it is automatically right or wrong because they are offering spiritual guidance along with coffee and donuts as long as they do it in a way that does not detract from the experience of those who don’t want to be guided.
I agree that there are far better venues for this sort of activity than the trail. Among the homeless, victims of domestic violence and county detox facilities come immediately to mind. Maybe someone should point that out to the people who are doing this?
But ministering on the AT makes sense b/c people thru-hiking are usually undergoing a big transition in their life (divorce, college, etc) and are most likely questioning major issues in their lives (love, where you're going when you die, etc). i suppose different people are most receptive to Christianity through different means: some could respond well to this trail magic and kind conversation, while others might need a stronger push at this point in their lives. Just remember that no one's perfect; Christians make mistakes, which can include being too pushy sometimes w/the Gospel.
Blissful
11-12-2006, 21:11
As a Christian and a hiker, I think that one's faith and spirituality is an intensely personal matter.
Setting a good example in one's life and helping others is admirable. Actively preaching and proselytizing others while on the Trail is less so.
There is absolutely no sense preaching to anyone who doesn't have an ear to hear. Forget it. I know, I was one of them once. I told people to bug off. But when I was ready, I was glad someone preached. And not because they offered me food. They offered me the real food called truth. And it set me free.
Certainly there are those who are wandering souls as well as wandering on foot. To keep your lips shut when there is a listening ear to me is less than admirable.
Blissful
11-12-2006, 21:32
I agree that there are far better venues for this sort of activity than the trail. Among the homeless, victims of domestic violence and county detox facilities come immediately to mind. Maybe someone should point that out to the people who are doing this?
We minister to the youth - through Boy Scouts and the teens in our church. Is our ministry then less needed because we are not in a detox unit or a jail? Young people need spiritual guidance so they don't end up homeless or in the detox unit or at the county jail. Maybe there are others who need it - like some on the trail before they end up homeless, in detox, or in jail.
I think the idea that only those in depravity need the preaching is ridiculous. If anything, its those who think they have their act together, that think they have it made without God, who really need Him most. (Okay - I know that will get some people mad. Guess I get mad too, esp when people are trying to make a difference in others' lives and they get shot down for it - like the AT servants. If you don't like it, don't take the food, water, and Bible. Find out where they will be and stay clear of it. And go your merry way.)
halftime
11-12-2006, 21:47
I wonder how they would deal with being told to "get ***ed"?
I am sure they would turn the other cheek.:sun
But ministering on the AT makes sense b/c people thru-hiking are usually undergoing a big transition in their life (divorce, college, etc) and are most likely questioning major issues in their lives (love, where you're going when you die, etc). i suppose different people are most receptive to Christianity through different means:
I think for the most part most people you'll find on the trail have had their Christian upbringing. Others may have a different religion and they're entitled to it. Seeing you're walking through "God's creation" wouldn't it make sense to just let God do the talking without being interpeted?
Hammerhead
11-12-2006, 22:03
I'm with Wolf on this one. I HATE when people do that crap and I'll be the first to invite them to kindly go ***** themselves. I don't push my beliefs on anyone, do not do it to me.
eric_plano
11-12-2006, 22:06
...If you don't like it, don't take the food, water, and Bible. Find out where they will be and stay clear of it. And go your merry way.)
I agree w/this. If I see that it is religiously based I will pass it by without a word. If it is a bait and switch or I'm being chased down, then it isn't right imo.
fishinfred
11-12-2006, 22:23
I 've met these folks. Craig in 04 when I came to Dicks Creek in a horizontal sleet,wet and cold and there was 2 guys standing in the rain next to a PU truck loaded with bags of fruit and sodas.They said they were offering rides to Hiawassee too so me and another hiker who came down took the ride .NO PREACHIN or anything like that just some very nice people who helped a couple weary hikers. Then this year while we were doing our magic gig at Albert Craig and Suzy hiked in (she was having some hip problems ) and it was really nice to pay back the kindness I recieved in 04 .We fed them and I ended up chasing them up the Trail because they forgot the apples I had told them to put in their pockets .They were about in tears when I did that .I think what they are doing is fine and like I said there was no preaching to us back in 04 .......I don't go for someone trying to force their beliefs on me no matter what that is but good kind people offering rides and food out of the kindness of their hearts is just WAY NICE!
Not a threat to anyone and I hope to see them again on my hike next year .
PEACE!
Fishinfred
Way back when, the bothers at the Catholic Greymore Monastary used to invite thruhikers to eat with them (I still remember a fine meal of sweet and sour chicken), then offer up a cell for the night.
You don't get more committed to religion than those guys.
I could be naive, but I don't think conversion was ever a part of thier plan.
I wouldn't be happy if Catholics, Mormons, or whoever decided to organize and have people at trailheads with conversion as one of thier primary goals, however.
But, that's just me.
In a way, I am glad to see so much religious tollerance on this list.
"Remote for detachment, narrow for chosen company, winding for leisure, lonely for contemplation, it beckons not merely north and south but upward to the body, mind and soul of man." - Myron Avery, In the Maine Woods, 1934
Amen, brothers Sly and Myron
Kludos to Myron. Jack was on the money, but it's hard to top my man.
My neighbors back in N.C.(the TN. ones) thought they were :eek: THE modern day Apostles, always tellin us when the world was going to end. Kinda creepy, but we were pretty sure they were harmless.
My other neighbors were mentioned here too. I think that if you sit down at thier table, you can at least hear what that have to say, even if you don't agree. You other option, which works great- every time, is to politely excuse yourself.;)
I've meet quite a few really nice preachers on the trail. No harm there either.:welcome
I have always been torn by the fact that throughout history, religion is at the root of so much hate, death, and war.:(
Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-12-2006, 23:23
We minister to the youth - through Boy Scouts and the teens in our church. Is our ministry then less needed because we are not in a detox unit or a jail? Young people need spiritual guidance so they don't end up homeless or in the detox unit or at the county jail. Maybe there are others who need it - like some on the trail before they end up homeless, in detox, or in jail.
I think the idea that only those in depravity need the preaching is ridiculous. If anything, its those who think they have their act together, that think they have it made without God, who really need Him most. (Okay - I know that will get some people mad. Guess I get mad too, esp when people are trying to make a difference in others' lives and they get shot down for it - like the AT servants. If you don't like it, don't take the food, water, and Bible. Find out where they will be and stay clear of it. And go your merry way.)
Blissful, to me their is a difference between ministry within the church and out-reach. Both are equally important, but they are different.
While I agree that it is not only those who have hit a bottom in life that need God, I also know from personal experience and observation that those who are scraping the bottom are often far more receptive. While some on the AT fit this description, most do not.
The definitive answer on the rules of carrying the message come from the Great Messenger himself. Note He said to present the message and help those who accepted it to grow. He never promoted the idea of belaboring the point or of attempting to use force or trickery to get others to listen.
Just Jeff
11-12-2006, 23:37
If they're standing there giving out magic and offering a conversation, I'm ok with it. If they don't stop pressing after I let them know I'm not interested, they're just being rude and I'll excuse myself. But that's the case with folks pushing any topic...it's a personal tact thing, not just a religious thing.
If they start hiking with me and won't stop preaching, we're gonna have problems. That's never happened to me.
did anyone see the 'hunting' bibles this year in nc/tn, they kinda freaked me out, as if i was afraid of the christian religion enough. there was a picture of a hunter or game animal highlighting every line about killing someone/thing. people take the whole bible mythology way too far (a misunderstanding i made once as well)
i know this will offend some people, but i'm simply stating my opinion
also i like the way l.wolf put it.
So long as they're not annoying or over-persistent or impolite I enjoy a good religious debate around the campfire (or berakfast table) as much as anyone. On a saturday morning at home if I'm not busy I'll occassionally let in those that come knocking. I've almost converted a few! Had a couple of mormon girls watching Iron Maiden videos with me one morning. Did you know they believe (or at least these two did) that god has a physical body which he keeps someplace on earth and animates from time to time when he feels like walking among us!? I couldn't get out of them where he keeps it, but they did say that it's "in a cave or something". They were nice, and they were invited back, although so far they haven't returned....
As a deist, I personaly think this whole religeous thing is getting out of hand. Then again, I probably wouldn't turn down a piece of fruit on the trail if it was given out by Our Sisters of the Little Nazis. If you don't agree with what their selling, just hike on by.
As a deist, I personaly think this whole religeous thing is getting out of hand. Then again, I probably wouldn't turn down a piece of fruit on the trail if it was given out by Our Sisters of the Little Nazis. If you don't agree with what their selling, just hike on by.
The problem is where does it end. Should the AT be an avenue for others espousing their personal beliefs? I always considered a thru-hike an effort in self-reliance and discovery.
It still can be a journey of self discovery or any kind of journey you wish to make it. Unfortunately, the trail is not as isolated as we would like to think. Its impossible to avoid road crossings and towns. You can limit your exposure to "outside" influences, but the trail will never be like the CDT. I personally like the interaction with other hikers and townspeople. That being said, I do not wish to have my solitude intruded on by any organized religious group or individual while on the trail. If they wish to set up at a roadcrossing, no problem, I have the option to hike on past. If they feel the need to take their message on the trail, then they invite my abuse. I personally don't feel its a big enough problem to lose any sleep over, but those religious tracts scattered in the shelters, thats another matter.
Ramble~On
11-13-2006, 10:26
:-? I like the way George Carlin put it.
Lone Wolf
11-13-2006, 10:27
:-? I like the way George Carlin put it.
Well...?????
I don't lose any sleep over it either, in fact, there's not much I lose sleep over. I don't like seeing the trail becoming commercialized for Jesus or salvation. I can go to church for that and hike the trail to get away from it.
Lone Wolf
11-13-2006, 10:35
It still can be a journey of self discovery or any kind of journey you wish to make it. Unfortunately, the trail is not as isolated as we would like to think. Its impossible to avoid road crossings and towns. You can limit your exposure to "outside" influences, but the trail will never be like the CDT. I personally like the interaction with other hikers and townspeople. That being said, I do not wish to have my solitude intruded on by any organized religious group or individual while on the trail. If they wish to set up at a roadcrossing, no problem, I have the option to hike on past. If they feel the need to take their message on the trail, then they invite my abuse. I personally don't feel its a big enough problem to lose any sleep over, but those religious tracts scattered in the shelters, thats another matter.
Last year at Unicoi gap, some guy was giving out "magic" along with bible pamphlets. I declined both. He looked at me like I was crazy for passing up food and drink. Now if he had beer...
I don't lose any sleep over it either, in fact, there's not much I lose sleep over. I just like seeing the trail becoming commercialized for Jesus or salvation. I can go to church for that and hike the trail to get away from it.
I "believe" you are missin a "don't" somewheres Sly.:eek:
[quote=Sly;270338] I just like seeing the trail becoming commercialized for Jesus or salvation.
You mean here?
I "believe" you are missin a "don't" somewheres Sly.:eek:
Yeah, I am... I'll fix that. ;)
Just a thought.... Aren't hikers already on the path? :)
I have much more respect for Jehovahs Witnesses and the young Mormon "Elders" than I do for someone who sits at a road crossing waiting to meet a potential convert to come to them. :rolleyes: At least the Witnesses pound their soles looking for souls to save. And the Latter Day Saints usually ride their bikes - while wearing their jacket & tie! At least they do here in Chattanooga.
Havng said that, the hiking couple featured in the article seem like nice folk.
I just don't like seeing the trail becoming commercialized for Jesus or salvation.
You mean here?
I fixed my quote. Talking about religion here is fine, but like politics, it should probably have a seperate subscribed forum.
Havng said that, the hiking couple featured in the article seem like nice folk.
Yeah they are, they were at last years SoRuck.
I'm with Wolf on this one. I HATE when people do that crap and I'll be the first to invite them to kindly go ***** themselves. I don't push my beliefs on anyone, do not do it to me.
Yep!
When I am out there (not the AT because it's too far away for me) I am getting AWAY from people trying to tell me how to think, feel or act. At this time they are a very unwanted distraction from what I am there for. I do NOT want to be bombarded with their idealisms while I in my time of "retreat".
While I may not be as brash as LW (at first) I will let them know that their harassment is not appreciated. ...and that is exactly what it is if it continues beyond that point.
Then, if it persists, I would use the LW approach. :D
I fixed my quote. Talking about religion here is fine, but like politics, it should probably have a seperate subscribed forum.
I thought I saw mentioned that the political forum was closed.
As for religion in general you are probably right. So far, this thread has remained civil. I'm glad we can discuss how this couple, and others, affect the trail experience.
So long as they're not annoying or over-persistent or impolite I enjoy a good religious debate around the campfire (or berakfast table) as much as anyone.
Anyone? :-?
Speak for yourself. A lot of people (probably MOST) do not want to hear that crap at the breakfast table.
...or the campfire.
It is just plain rude. :(
I thought I saw mentioned that the political forum was closed.
Nah, it was just getting a little heated before the election! :eek:
Sgt Rock asked for a weeks moritorium, on a volunteer basis, to let things cool down. Come Tuesday night at midnight the week's over.... :D
I wonder how they would deal with being told to "get ***ed"?
I am sure they would turn the other cheek.:sun
Well it depends on what king of "cheek" we are talking about.
As long as it is not turning the "cheek" ala the Rev. Ted Haggard, I am OK with it! :D
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/03/haggard.allegations/index.html
Last year at Unicoi gap, some guy was giving out "magic" along with bible pamphlets. I declined both. He looked at me like I was crazy for passing up food and drink. Now if he had beer...
Well....?
:D
Well it depends on what king of "cheek" we are talking about.
As long as it is not turning the "cheek" ala the Rev. Ted Haggard, I am OK with it! :D
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/03/haggard.allegations/index.html
At the end of our street is a motel made famous by Jimmy Swaggard:eek: :o :o
Lone Wolf
11-13-2006, 11:38
He didn't have beer. Or a plastic Jesus on the dashboard.
At the end of our street is a motel made famous by Jimmy Swaggard:eek: :o :o
In Pagosa Springs? That guy gets around! :)
I thought I saw mentioned that the political forum was closed.
As for religion in general you are probably right. So far, this thread has remained civil. I'm glad we can discuss how this couple, and others, affect the trail experience.
I dont think the political forum is closed! It is just closed to... well... discussions of politics! :-?
:eek: :rolleyes: :D
He didn't have beer. Or a plastic Jesus on the dashboard.
Yeah. On the flipside, if they have a plastic Jesus on the dash, and you are sincere enough, I'd bet you could talk them into just about anything. :-?
In Pagosa Springs? That guy gets around! :)
Its a nice town to hitch into from Wolf Creek Pass. I have done it more than once, even. It has everything! I just didnt know it had the other thing you were referring too....:-?
Monkeyboy
11-13-2006, 13:25
Seems pretty simple to me....
......if you don't want them preaching to you, don't eat their food or drink their sodas........
Seems pretty simple to me....
......if you don't want them preaching to you, don't eat their food or drink their sodas........
I can't help but notice your screen name, kind of ironic.
I think this goes beyond so-called "trail magic" and falls into the realm of baiting hikers. Every town has a church which one can attend, why does it need to be expanded to the trail itself?
max patch
11-13-2006, 13:35
Every town has a church which one can attend, why does it need to be expanded to the trail itself?
The people these guys are trying to reach out to don't go to church.
The people these guys are trying to reach out to don't go to church.
No, but there already walking in a cathedral, hopefully they'll be reached. As I said before, where does it stop? Remember, freedom of religion also means freedom from religion.
The Weasel
11-13-2006, 14:07
Just as I'm free to ignore other opinions about politics, food or how nice a shelter is, I'm free to ignore people with religious opinions who offer them. And I'm often suspicious of ostensibly religious people who are only interested in 'talking the talk.' Those are the ones who preach, but don't seem to live their religion; Jesus seems to have known people like that from his story of the man who sat in the front of the Temple and praised his own piety: He called them hypocrites.
But I can't criticise - and won't -those who 'walk the walk.' If they are manning kiosks, I can stop or I can walk by. But they are taking their time, and some of their goods - their own or from their church that receives their contributions - to minister to others. But there is no reason to be rude, absent rudeness on their part.
In their way, they are part of the life of the AT as much as any other part. Perhaps more; the path we walk is in their community, not ours, and we are, in some ways, guests in their home as much as independent actors. So 'trail magic' that comes from good hearts, whether impelled by a religious impulse or something else, remains 'magic.' We can accept it, or not. It's up to us.
The Weasel
Bloodroot
11-13-2006, 14:16
Just as I'm free to ignore other opinions about politics, food or how nice a shelter is, I'm free to ignore people with religious opinions who offer them. And I'm often suspicious of ostensibly religious people who are only interested in 'talking the talk.' Those are the ones who preach, but don't seem to live their religion; Jesus seems to have known people like that from his story of the man who sat in the front of the Temple and praised his own piety: He called them hypocrites.
But I can't criticise - and won't -those who 'walk the walk.' If they are manning kiosks, I can stop or I can walk by. But they are taking their time, and some of their goods - their own or from their church that receives their contributions - to minister to others. But there is no reason to be rude, absent rudeness on their part.
In their way, they are part of the life of the AT as much as any other part. Perhaps more; the path we walk is in their community, not ours, and we are, in some ways, guests in their home as much as independent actors. So 'trail magic' that comes from good hearts, whether impelled by a religious impulse or something else, remains 'magic.' We can accept it, or not. It's up to us.
The Weasel
Great response.
missionary:1,a person sent by a church into an area to carry on religious or humanitarian work, 2, a person who attempts to persuade or convert others.
Well, missionaries are notorious for going into areas where people are poor, nonreligious etc.etc. with food, supplies, medicine in an attempt to convert said peoples to their way of thinking and religion. This new kind of trail magic seems in line with traditional missionary work.
Like has been previously mentioned, you can take their goodies or keep walking. The Question remains, should this be going on in a National Park?
In their way, they are part of the life of the AT as much as any other part. Perhaps more; the path we walk is in their community, not ours, and we are, in some ways, guests in their home as much as independent actors.I'm not sure what you mean by that, but the AT is on public land. If I sat at a shelter or trailhead trying to covert everyone to Islam I think you'd think dfferently.
middle to middle
11-13-2006, 14:51
An old wise man, the one at the top of the mountain in the cave, once said best not to talk religion or politics with straingers.
There's a reason the missionaries often got strung up and gutted by the natives...
"Remote for detachment, narrow for chosen company, winding for leisure, lonely for contemplation, it beckons not merely north and south but upward to the body, mind and soul of man." - Myron Avery, In the Maine Woods, 1934
Amen, brothers Sly and Myron
Though often attributed to Avery -- mostly because he used them so often -- I believe those immortal words were first spoken by Harold Allen, an early trail volunteer.
Weary
....I have always been torn by the fact that throughout history, religion is at the root of so much hate, death, and war.:(
And ignorance. A recent poll found that nearly half of all Americans think the universe was created about 6,000 years ago, and will be destroyed by God within 50 years and similar nonsense.
No wonder this country is increasingly ridiculed by the rest of the industrial world -- and our fight agaist terrorism ignored. We are seen as ignoramuses.
Weary
halftime
11-13-2006, 16:30
Well it depends on what king of "cheek" we are talking about.
As long as it is not turning the "cheek" ala the Rev. Ted Haggard, I am OK with it! :D
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/03/haggard.allegations/index.html
actually pun was intended, but was really referring to the Biblical (facial ) analogy:
Seriously this couple seems to have good intentions, wanting to help others in both a physical and a spiritual way. Although their methods may certainly be annoying to some, probobly no more than abrasive language (or other types of behaivor) can be anoying to others.
People are subjected to anoying circumstances everywhere (the trail is no exception). Most people just ignore an annoying circumstance when possible and either move on or confront it if it becomes threatening or intolerable.
To this couples credit they are Hikers and are subject to all the social difficulties that long distance hikers face. Hopefully their encounters along the Trail are teaching them when it's most appropiate to share their beliefs with those receptive to it, or otherwise when best to tone down their retoric or most importantly, when to just shake the dust from their feet and move on.
Boat Drinks
11-13-2006, 16:44
As a Christian and a hiker, I think that one's faith and spirituality is an intensely personal matter.
Setting a good example in one's life and helping others is admirable. Actively preaching and proselytizing others while on the Trail is less so.
Absolutely. I can think of few other things that would sour my Spiritual Journey on the Trail than to have anyone of ANY religion try to preach to me without being ASKED first!!! And if this is a prerequisite to getting food or water or first aid from these folks, it should be said so up front.
When the Student is Ready, the Teacher will appear, not the other way around. It doesn't work the other way. Most born agains I am around daily, are all holier then thou types, less tolerant then most folks I know, and will tell you you're going to burn because you don't follow the Bible word for word!!! Anyone read Luke 19:27??? These people scare me to death!
mweinstone
11-13-2006, 16:48
as the resedent jesus freak, im against all prostelatizing and hate everybody who does it. they suck saten.
Anyone? :-?
Speak for yourself. A lot of people (probably MOST) do not want to hear that crap at the breakfast table.
...or the campfire.
It is just plain rude. :(
Wrong. It's only rude if you are subjected to it against your will. As I said, so long as you are polite about it, I am willing to discuss with you whatever interesting topic you care to bring up, your job, hobbies, musical preferences, religion, politcs, whatever. It's how I learn about stuff. If I'm not in a mood for debate and/or conversation I'll keep to myslef, and if you press me I'll let you know. If, after that, you persist in a rude or annoying fashion, then you'd be in the wrong regardless of what topic you're on about. I know how to deal with that, too.
Jack Tarlin
11-13-2006, 17:10
I've developed a standard reply when people start asking overly personal questions on the Trail, and this includes religious ones.
I smile, look the person in the eye, and say "I make it a practice not to discuss personal matters in public, and never with strangers. I'm sure you'll understand and respect this."
If they persist in their questions about my private life, income, the state of my soul, etc., I'll tell them, without a smile, "Obviously you either misunderstood me, or don't respect my feelings on this. These aren't matters I wish to discuss."
If they STILL persist, then they're obviously inconsiderate schmucks and one is no longer required to treat them with any courtesy whatsoever. I either ignore them, turn my back on them and speak to someone else, or take myself elsewhere.
Three strikes and you're OUT.
The people these guys are trying to reach out to don't go to church.
Why do they need to "reach out" at all? It's not like we aren't already bombarded with their spin machine from cradle to grave.
Tell you what, when one of them can demonstrate how to walk on the water, or better yet PART the water, in the unbridged swolen streams of Maine during a wet year, I'll listen to whatever else they have to say.
I tend to welcome discussions on spiritual matters in alot of cases but some (and only some) Christians can put me on the defensive really fast. I'll cheerfully join in a blessing over a meal, engage in one on one discussions about Christianity, odds are from what I hear, I'd have no problems at all with these people. However when things get really pushy or continual probing questions are asked my sarcastic side sometimes kicks in to defensive mode.
"I'm really uncomfortable having this discussion with you, for a long time people who think as you do had a habit of burning people who think as I do at the stake, or hanging them from convienient tree limbs."
Geez, this is weird, but I find myself agreeing with The Weasel again.
No need to drop an F-Bomb on anyone. People are usually kind in face to face encounters. Remember how people have treated you on the trail and be kind to one another out there. If you can't be kind, at least be civil.
Monkeyboy
11-13-2006, 18:01
I'm not sure what you mean by that, but the AT is on public land. If I sat at a shelter or trailhead trying to covert everyone to Islam I think you'd think dfferently.
First, they are not the only organization that does this on "public land"......
Outfitters, hostels, restaurants, etc...commonly do it. So why is this any different?
Guess you've never heard that nothing in life is for free.....
Secondly, if you were doing this to convert people to Islam, I would have no problem with it.....knock yourself out.
Thirdly, there is no such thing as "freedom from religion". Your freedom is that you can have a religion or not. Just as your "freedom of speech" is not the "freedom to be heard", because we don't have to listen to you.....
Like I said......eat/drink their food, or pass on by......your choice.
RockyTrail
11-13-2006, 18:05
If a conservation group set up some trail magic to discuss LNT with hikers or a trail maintenance group set up some trail magic to recruit volunteers, would we be discussing if it was OK? The point is I don’t think it is automatically right or wrong because they are offering spiritual guidance along with coffee and donuts as long as they do it in a way that does not detract from the experience of those who don’t want to be guided.
Absolutely, FD.
Freedom of speech and freedom of religion; people are entitled to discuss their own interests. No big deal.
I personally dislike anyone pressuring me against my will to listen to or convert me to their beliefs when it comes to religions, but it sounds like these hikers are nice and not doing that? I am sure they would also want you to take part of their offerings even if you are not interested in their preachings ?(I hope so for their sake or they will get the Lone Wolf reply if they dont, lol) I dont mind some conversation or debate about any subject anywhere as long as it is objective on both sides, just dont pressure me and I will be fine, but I personally dont like to be put in that situation on the trail as I go there to get away from such. But looking at the big picture, most of these folks have good intentions and after all they are hiking their hike and feeling the need to convert those along the way is part of their hike, so I will respect it but I will agree to use the 3 strikes you`re out method as posted by Jack done in a civil manner of course.
RAT
First, they are not the only organization that does this on "public land"......
Outfitters, hostels, restaurants, etc...commonly do it. So why is this any different?
.
Outfitters, hostels and restaurants set up on the AT? New one to me...
... proselytizing ...What an awesome word!
Monkeyboy
11-13-2006, 21:27
Outfitters, hostels and restaurants set up on the AT? New one to me...
Are you saying they don't set up "trail magic" points....if so, I guess it is a new one to you....
But I'd still like to hear fron an '06 hiker who hiked with these folks.I hiked with Craig and Suzy Miles a little. Not much. But I first met them at the '05 Trail Days. They had a trailer with free showers set up across from L Wolf's house. They were also at the SoRuck this past January. Slept in their truck if I recall correctly.
Very nice people. We never talked about religion, just hiking. I have been around people who talk about it a lot, and I usually just murmur politely (never argue), but as I say, Craig and Suzy and I just talked hiking and gear.
Lone Wolf
11-13-2006, 21:29
Are you saying they don't set up "trail magic" points....if so, I guess it is a new one to you....
New to me too. What's a magic point?
Are you saying they don't set up "trail magic" points....if so, I guess it is a new one to you....
Nope, I never heard of any outfitter, hostel or restaurant setting up on the trail. Have an example?
Before you said nothing is for free, it seems AT Servants rely strictly on donations, that's about as free as it gets. Most people take their hard earned cash to hike the trail, even charity hikers.
Nope, I never heard of any outfitter, hostel or restaurant setting up on the trail. Have an example?
In 2000, EMS was involved in a trail magic day just south of Manchester Center. It was on the trail in a field. I heard it was done in subsequent years too. I believe Teej is familiar.
In 2000, EMS was involved in a trail magic day just south of Manchester Center. It was on the trail in a field. I heard it was done in subsequent years too. I believe Teej is familiar.
Well, I'd be surprised if they did it without a permit. Certainly you're not suggesting any org be able to set up as they please. I can see why the ATC addressed the issue recently at the Gathering.
Monkeyboy
11-13-2006, 21:51
Whatever, gentlemen......
Either accept the gifted food or walk away......'nuf said.
Have a great life
In Pagosa Springs? That guy gets around! :)
Not out west yet.:( A couple of blocks down is Airline Dr., here in Metairie. Was well known for its 'walkers back when. :eek:
Its a nice town to hitch into from Wolf Creek Pass. I have done it more than once, even. It has everything! I just didnt know it had the other thing you were referring too....:-?
They will have a Walmart before long.:mad: :(
You will have to stop by next time highway; I'll bet you have some stories to tell.:)
They will have a Walmart before long.:mad: :(
There goes the neighborhood... :(
Pagosa Springs is cool. I had an bad tooth when I got there and finally found a dentist that would take me. I explained I was hiking the trail and only wanted some pain killers and antibiotics, that I needed to get back on the trail and I'd get it pulled in Lake City. Well, he examined me, took x-rays and wrote out the scripts. When I went to pay the nurse said there was no charge!
After I took the antibiotics the pain went away and I never did get it pulled. I had the pain killers the entire hike just in case.
There goes the neighborhood... :(
Pagosa Springs is cool. I had an bad tooth when I got there and finally found a dentist that would take me. I explained I was hiking the trail and only wanted some pain killers and antibiotics, that I needed to get back on the trail and I'd get it pulled in Lake City. Well, he examined me, took x-rays and wrote out the scripts. When I went to pay the nurse said there was no charge!
After I took the antibiotics the pain went away and I never did get it pulled. I had the pain killers the entire hike just in case.
Great story Sly. My kinda town. Hope to see ya in the hood.:D
Skidsteer
11-13-2006, 22:32
There goes the neighborhood... :(
Pagosa Springs is cool. I had an bad tooth when I got there and finally found a dentist that would take me. I explained I was hiking the trail and only wanted some pain killers and antibiotics, that I needed to get back on the trail and I'd get it pulled in Lake City. Well, he examined me, took x-rays and wrote out the scripts. When I went to pay the nurse said there was no charge!
After I took the antibiotics the pain went away and I never did get it pulled. I had the pain killers the entire hike just in case.
I had the same thing happen to me!
Apparently a tooth can get an infection on occasion and not have anything fundamentally wrong with it. My regular Dentist seemed really disappointed. :D
I had the same thing happen to me!
Apparently a tooth can get an infection on occasion and not have anything fundamentally wrong with it. My regular Dentist seemed really disappointed. :D
Yeah well, that was 5 years ago. Now I'm in line to see the Denturist! :( After that I'll be all... :D
There's a reason the missionaries often got strung up and gutted by the natives...
And now you know what the cables strung between the trees are really for! :D
Skidsteer
11-13-2006, 23:08
....Now I'm in line to see the Denturist! :( After that I'll be all... :D
Same here.
My disappointed Dentist was able to convert me to the Gospel of regular check-ups notwithstanding the fact that I've had one cavity in the last 25 years.
I'm scheduled the day before Thanksgiving but I made it clear that any turkey-threatening procedures will be scheduled at a later time!
[sigh ]I'm not sure I care for this aging gig.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-14-2006, 07:41
There's a reason the missionaries often got strung up and gutted by the natives...
And now you know what the cables strung between the trees are really for! :DMust resist going into photoshop with this on my mind....
I hiked with Craig and Suzy Miles a little. Not much. But I first met them at the '05 Trail Days. They had a trailer with free showers set up across from L Wolf's house. They were also at the SoRuck this past January. Slept in their truck if I recall correctly.
Very nice people. We never talked about religion, just hiking. I have been around people who talk about it a lot, and I usually just murmur politely (never argue), but as I say, Craig and Suzy and I just talked hiking and gear.
Thanks for the post Frosty. Maybe that'll help some folks refrain from kneejerk reactions.
Well, I'd be surprised if they did it without a permit. Certainly you're not suggesting any org be able to set up as they please. I can see why the ATC addressed the issue recently at the Gathering.
Of course I'm not. And I agree, That sort of activity should not take place on the trail IMO.
I missed the event, but several hikers skipped ahead to be there for the "goody bags" that were given out by EMS. Hungry Howie went - I think. Maybe Teej will chime in. Profile? Almanac? Remember this?
Did anyone meet their 2006 "Trail Chaplains" Brett(Social) and Bronwyn(Dadelion)? I've met Craig and Suzy. Christians are suppose to preach everywhere. Thay're just doing their "job". They will be doing less trail magic next year but still sponsering a "trail chaplains". I do trail magic at Unicoi but have never mentioned my beliefs. I just push food and take your trash. Would you be offended if you saw bibles for free beside the sodas and chips?
Wrong. It's only rude if you are subjected to it against your will.
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT!!! WARNING WILL ROBINSON!
You are wrong. Whaddya want us to do, skip breakfast because YOU cannot resist the urge to argue religion or politics or whatever else it is YOU feel the need to blather on about at our breakfast table?!! It is rude.
As I said, so long as you are polite about it, I am willing to discuss with you whatever interesting topic you care to bring up, your job, hobbies, musical preferences,
OK
religion, politcs,
Not OK. You and your partner should grab your plate and leave the table, Go elsewhere when discussing those issues.
whatever. It's how I learn about stuff. If I'm not in a mood for debate and/or conversation I'll keep to myslef, and if you press me I'll let you know. If, after that, you persist in a rude or annoying fashion, then you'd be in the wrong regardless of what topic you're on about. I know how to deal with that, too.
Yeah, and you should keep it to yourself and if you persist and "press me" I will let YOU know! :mad:
..and nobody wants to start their day with that kind of ugliness at the Breakfast table. :rolleyes:
Please refrain from being an ASSHAT at the table. :(
Did anyone meet their 2006 "Trail Chaplains" Brett(Social) and Bronwyn(Dadelion)? I've met Craig and Suzy. Christians are suppose to preach everywhere. Thay're just doing their "job". They will be doing less trail magic next year but still sponsering a "trail chaplains". I do trail magic at Unicoi but have never mentioned my beliefs. I just push food and take your trash. Would you be offended if you saw bibles for free beside the sodas and chips?
A Bible, no. Some of the other religiously-inspired hate literature, definitely. Sounds like you wouldn't be displaying the latter, so we'd all get along fabulously. And I'd be sure to say thank you for the TM.
Must resist going into photoshop with this on my mind....
Resistance is futile. ;)
Blissful
11-14-2006, 14:14
Nope, I never heard of any outfitter, hostel or restaurant setting up on the trail. Have an example?
Doesn't the AT go right through the outfitter's store or something at Neel's Gap? I thought it was known for the only place where the AT goes through a building. (?)
Right now I'd like to take a commercial break -
I can't believe next week is Thanksgiving - and wow it won't be long before New Years 2007 and then my thru hike!!! I'm in shock how quickly the time is slipping by. It's been 30 years in the making. Hope I'm ready. :)
Would you be offended if you saw bibles for free beside the sodas and chips?
IMO, people can get way too obsessive about offending people....with something as important as religion, people are and should be passionate enough to state the truth even when it has teh potential to hurt someone's feelings. Right and wrong are not relative terms that can be modified to fit someone's feelings. Of course, gentleness is a virtue that is always appreciated in a situation such as this, but cannot replace teh truth.....i hope i'm not being completely incoherent:-?
Jack Tarlin
11-14-2006, 15:31
The Trail goes thru an archway and thru the building at Neel Gap, tho it technically doesn't go "thru the store."
While there are all sorts of tunnels and underpasses that the Trail goes thru, this is indeed the only building that the Trail goes thru.
Lone Wolf
11-14-2006, 15:32
Who's truth?
Who's truth?
That is the crux of the issue, isn't it?
IMO, people can get way too obsessive about offending people....with something as important as religion, people are and should be passionate enough to state the truth even when it has teh potential to hurt someone's feelings. Right and wrong are not relative terms that can be modified to fit someone's feelings. Of course, gentleness is a virtue that is always appreciated in a situation such as this, but cannot replace teh truth.....i hope i'm not being completely incoherent:-?
Except for the fact that it's not the "truth" to a whole lot of people, and is in fact anything but the "truth". Truth, when it comes to religion, is an extremely subjective idea, and most of us would rather not be subjected to another's idea of "truth". Who's "truth" is truthier?? The Christians? The Muslims? Judaism? Janism? Buddism? Hinduism? Shinto? Zorostrianism? Rastafarian? Mormonism? Christian Scientists? Paganism?
Well, you get my point. It may be your "truth", but it sure as **** isn't everyone's "truth", which of course means it isn't actually truth at all...
(Props to Steven Colbert for "truthier")
RockyTrail
11-14-2006, 16:54
Doesn't the AT go right through the outfitter's store or something at Neel's Gap? I thought it was known for the only place where the AT goes through a building. (?)
Blissful, you're absolutely right, the AT goes through a portion of the building at Neels Gap that houses Mountain Crossings outfitters. There are plenty of businesses along the trail that "use" that trail for customers; vans park at road crossings to recruit motel customers, shuttlers and slackpacking services load and unload, etc.. I'm not being critical of these folks, in fact I support them and am glad to see them. But the assertion that this couple is doing something wrong through "use" of the trail doesn't hold water in my humble opinion. If they're law-abiding, then how are they different than anyone else?
I think it's wrong to pick on this particular couple (presumably) just because of their beliefs. Too many of our countrymen have died to establish and keep that freedom. Live and let live. Peace.:sun
....Yeah, and you should keep it (religion, politcs) to yourself and if you persist and "press me" I will let YOU know! :mad:
..and nobody wants to start their day with that kind of ugliness at the Breakfast table. :rolleyes:
Please refrain from being an ASSHAT . :(
It's hard to imagine a sillier post. Virtually all long distant trails are on public land, that means they are part of the DEmocratic process -- a part of politics. Political discussion is how trail and other issues are debated, understood, and eventually decided.
The opposite of political discussion is government by fiat, by dictatorship -- or at the very least, decisions from ignorance.
Weary
Except for the fact that it's not the "truth" to a whole lot of people, and is in fact anything but the "truth". Truth, when it comes to religion, is an extremely subjective idea, and most of us would rather not be subjected to another's idea of "truth". Who's "truth" is truthier?? The Christians? The Muslims? Judaism? Janism? Buddism? Hinduism? Shinto? Zorostrianism? Rastafarian? Mormonism? Christian Scientists? Paganism?
Well, you get my point. It may be your "truth", but it sure as **** isn't everyone's "truth", which of course means it isn't actually truth at all...
(Props to Steven Colbert for "truthier")
as a christian, i believe that Jesus is teh only way to get to Heaven. Of course, i don't expect non-christians to agree with me (otherwise, they'd be christians too). but at the same time, you have to admit that no two opposing beliefs can both be right--(at least) one must be wrong; that's just reality. which brings up something i was thinking about: the confusion of the words "truth" and "belief"; just b/c you believe something doesn't make it true....
not to be pessimistic, but i suppose that, ultimately, only death can bring us all into agreement about the truth of everything--then we'll all know for sure what's right!
Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-14-2006, 17:29
I've developed a standard reply when people start asking overly personal questions on the Trail, and this includes religious ones.
I smile, look the person in the eye, and say "I make it a practice not to discuss personal matters in public, and never with strangers. I'm sure you'll understand and respect this."
If they persist in their questions about my private life, income, the state of my soul, etc., I'll tell them, without a smile, "Obviously you either misunderstood me, or don't respect my feelings on this. These aren't matters I wish to discuss."
If they STILL persist, then they're obviously inconsiderate schmucks and one is no longer required to treat them with any courtesy whatsoever. I either ignore them, turn my back on them and speak to someone else, or take myself elsewhere.
Three strikes and you're OUT.This is an excellent post IMO.
While I have no problem with people offering food, drink and {insert message here} as a package, I have a real problem with anyone who persist after someone has told them twice to knock it off. The third time they must be told... well, all bets are off... the lone Wolf method is acceptable at that point.
Several have mentioned the distribution of written material by those giving out trail magic. Perhaps the missionaries need to be contacted by ATC or local maintainers and the concept of LNT and the potential litter problem the literature creates need to be addressed.
Finally, some have mentioned people doing mission work on public lands as a potential problem. I personally hope America never gets so darned politically correct that people can't express their religious beliefs and share them with passing strangers in public.
The AT is meant for hiking, exploring, enjoying nature, challenging oneself and the list goes on and on as far as hiking your own hike goes. I have never heard of people hitting the trail for the purpose of being saved by preachers who offer food,drink and bibles.
Churches were built for preaching for those who wanted to attend. The AT in no way resembles a church. IMO
as a christian, i believe that Jesus is teh only way to get to Heaven. Of course, i don't expect non-christians to agree with me (otherwise, they'd be christians too). but at the same time, you have to admit that no two opposing beliefs can both be right--(at least) one must be wrong; that's just reality. which brings up something i was thinking about: the confusion of the words "truth" and "belief"; just b/c you believe something doesn't make it true....
not to be pessimistic, but i suppose that, ultimately, only death can bring us all into agreement about the truth of everything--then we'll all know for sure what's right!
Well, there is the possibility, as I suspect, that death ends all consciousness for all of us, and thus we will never "know" anything again.
I also suspect that if there is a heaven, you will find a lot more than "Christians" there -- including folks like me. Afterall, your God is all knowing, all forgiving, and all good. Surely, he won't restrict heaven to those who believe in a religion that once burned people at the stake for not believing in its myths.
Weary
The opposite of political discussion is government by fiat
Nah, that would mean our government is stalled out on the side of the road needing expensive parts and major repairs by people with specific trainin... erm wait, nevermind...
you have to admit that no two opposing beliefs can both be right--(at least) one must be wrong; that's just reality.
Only if those two beliefs are contradictory, in which case, yes, one must be wrong. Of course, there's the extremely likely possibility that they're both wrong. There's no reason that of two opposing beliefs, one would automatically be correct.
What if Tom Cruise is right? :eek:
Alligator
11-14-2006, 20:05
What if Tom Cruise is right? :eek:Check out the vows, they're classically cool.
Alligator
11-14-2006, 20:08
Only if those two beliefs are contradictory, in which case, yes, one must be wrong. Of course, there's the extremely likely possibility that they're both wrong. There's no reason that of two opposing beliefs, one would automatically be correct.Agree.
They could be opposing on one axis and perpendicular to the others and still be in the wrong area of space:cool: .
Footslogger
11-14-2006, 20:12
Agree.
They could be opposing on one axis and perpendicular to the others and still be in the wrong area of space:cool: .
===================================
Hey ...now there's a true multi-dimensional dilemma !!
'Slogger
Well, there is the possibility, as I suspect, that death ends all consciousness for all of us, and thus we will never "know" anything again.
I also suspect that if there is a heaven, you will find a lot more than "Christians" there -- including folks like me. Afterall, your God is all knowing, all forgiving, and all good. Surely, he won't restrict heaven to those who believe in a religion that once burned people at the stake for not believing in its myths.
Weary
just b/c He is all-loving doesn't necessarily mean He is all-tolerant; people who willingly and knowingly reject His teachings, while He certainly still loves them, can't expect to get into heaven without "following the rules." like a professor flunking you in a course b/c you cheated--he's not doing it b/c he doesn't like you; rather, you didn't follow the rules he laid out at the beginning of the course, which included not cheating....(sorry if this is a bad analogy--never was very good at those).
anyway, i think it's rather strange that a person can believe one part of the Bible (i.e. God is all-loving) and not another (i.e. how to get to Heaven). :-?
plus, like (someone i don't remember who) stated earlier, people too often seem to judge christianity based on the sins of some (i.e. burning people at stake)....no christian is perfect, b/c they are human. (i know, stating the obvious...:rolleyes: )
just b/c He is all-loving doesn't necessarily mean He is all-tolerant; people who willingly and knowingly reject His teachings, while He certainly still loves them, can't expect to get into heaven without "following the rules." like a professor flunking you in a course b/c you cheated--he's not doing it b/c he doesn't like you; rather, you didn't follow the rules he laid out at the beginning of the course, which included not cheating....(sorry if this is a bad analogy--never was very good at those).
anyway, i think it's rather strange that a person can believe one part of the Bible (i.e. God is all-loving) and not another (i.e. how to get to Heaven). :-?
plus, like (someone i don't remember who) stated earlier, people too often seem to judge christianity based on the sins of some (i.e. burning people at stake)....no christian is perfect, b/c they are human. (i know, stating the obvious...:rolleyes: )
For christ's sake, find a church to preach in will ya, this is a hiking website.
Jack Tarlin
11-14-2006, 20:27
In regards to this matter, I suggest everyone take a look at Matthew 7:15 which pretty much tells you everything you need to know.
I suggest that people make their own spiritual journeys and explorations, and let their fellow men do likewise.
smokymtnsteve
11-14-2006, 20:55
why would I look at a Babble??? esp a NT babble???
BJ you are telling folks that the answer is in the babble....which is just a fairytale book.
colder than hale here today jack,,, :sun
Blissful
11-14-2006, 21:00
In regards to this matter, I suggest everyone take a look at Matthew 7:15 which pretty much tells you everything you need to know.
I suggest that people make their own spiritual journeys and explorations, and let their fellow men do likewise.
Well, since Jack brought this up...man, I was gonna stay in commercial mode...but to the broadcast I go...
John 3:16 does it for me :D
AND
For all you Christians out there who wonder about preaching on the trail or elsewhere in this big wide world...
Mark 16:15
Back to the commercial....
It's almost MARCH 1st!!! :banana
Skidsteer
11-14-2006, 21:06
why would I look at a Babble??? esp a NT babble???
BJ you are telling folks that the answer is in the babble....which is just a fairytale book.
colder than hale here today jack,,, :sun
Because you just might happen to agree with Matthew 7: 15, Steve.
In fact you may be compelled to utter Amen! out loud.:)
Blissful
11-14-2006, 21:06
BJ you are telling folks that the answer is in the babble....which is just a fairytale book.
You bet it's a fairytale book - wow and I can't wait to live happily ever after with my Prince of Peace.
Zippidee do da.
(Commercial)
Hey, March 1st!!! Where is it???
Okay, I gotta get back to work and earn money for my hike...
Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-14-2006, 21:21
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation” - Hurbert Spencer
Great story Sly. My kinda town. Hope to see ya in the hood.:D
Afraid it is gonna change my friend. :(
http://www.friendsofwolfcreek.org/
The developer has gobs of money. Not to be negative, think it is a matter of WHEN not IF this new "ski village" gets built. Think Vail.....
Sure it will impact Pagosa and South Fork...not to mention the CDT and the low-key skiing experience that many people love about Wolf Creek.
halftime
11-14-2006, 21:40
can't expect to get into heaven without "following the rules."
Not to sure about this. Don't believe Jesus was known for following the rules. That's why they killed Him.
Because you just might happen to agree with Matthew 7: 15, Steve.
In fact you may be compelled to utter Amen! out loud.:)
I think any verse with the number 4:20 is more Steve's style. ;)
[quote=Mags;271357]Afraid it is gonna change my friend. :(
http://www.friendsofwolfcreek.org/
[quote]
Yeah it is. It's already started.
I would hope that the county/town have a plan. Big money, politics, Walmart:eek: will have thier agenda too, of course.
The place will be booming for the next 10-20 years. Saw it happen in Ketchum, Idaho too. We know it will change at a faster pace than say, New Orleans, but...... we want to be there. We love it there! Heidi already has a job at The Springs.... guess who will be soakin for free.:D
When's the CoRuck?:banana
I think any verse with the number 4:20 is more Steve's style
4:20 My favorite verse of all !
HAIRNT !
RAT
I suggest that people make their own spiritual journeys and explorations, and let their fellow men do likewise.
Too much money, power and politics in religion for that to ever happen.:(
'Tis a nice thought though.:)
Afraid it is gonna change my friend. :(
http://www.friendsofwolfcreek.org/
The developer has gobs of money. Not to be negative, think it is a matter of WHEN not IF this new "ski village" gets built. Think Vail.....
Sure it will impact Pagosa and South Fork...not to mention the CDT and the low-key skiing experience that many people love about Wolf Creek.
Just read about the "village".:mad: YIKES:eek: Playing politics instead of by the rules. Who would of thought?:rolleyes:
Skidsteer
11-14-2006, 22:26
I think any verse with the number 4:20 is more Steve's style. ;)
True, true.
When's the CoRuck?:banana
It's the Ro(ckies))Ruck! Sometime in March I believe @ the Leadville Hostel.
Just Jeff
11-14-2006, 23:01
Maybe this thread should go to politics or sensitive subject forum?
It's the Ro(ckies))Ruck! Sometime in March I believe @ the Leadville Hostel.
Ruck Ro, ranks Reggie:p
Footslogger
11-14-2006, 23:04
It's the Ro(ckies))Ruck! Sometime in March I believe @ the Leadville Hostel.
===========================
Dates haven't been firmed up yet but in the past it's been held in late February. Most likely will be held at the Leadville Hostel !!
'Slogger
Maybe this thread should go to politics or sensitive subject forum?
I'm sorry:o didn't know the ruck was taboo.:D
===========================
Dates haven't been firmed up yet but in the past it's been held in late February. Most likely will be held at the Leadville Hostel !!
Rght, I'm always mixing up my get togethers with Billville events!! :eek:
Wanderingson
11-15-2006, 07:23
I don't get to pop into this forum on a regular basis, but when I do I try to catch up on some of these interesting threads. As time permits, I reply to some of the ones that interest me.
I am not a religious man. I do consider myself a siritual guy and have my concept of a higher power. This always stirs up some great conversation and when I feel froggy, I get my entertainment value for my dollar.
Over the years many folks have make many attempts to convert me or save me. I have a pretty regular routine worked out that seems to work for me.
The most recent attempt to save me came from a distant 70 year old relative. We went for a ride to a niegboring mountain town and he began his sales pitch. Sure he asked a lot of questions and I provided candid responses. He shared his life story and how being born again turned his entire life around. He was a true example of a real Christian who walked the walk, but he was determined to save me.
After hearing his life story, I kindly asked him at what age did he say he was born again. He stated he was 48 years old. It was then, I was able to reassure him that he did not get saved until the time was right. If he firmly believed that born again Cristians were doing Gods work, then only Gods would determine when someone was ready. I said to him with a smile that God had not determined that it was my time to be saved yet. He squirmed a little and was satisfied that he would not yet be able to save me.
I share this with my friends because, I will never know when my time may come. If I am not ready, no human power will be able to save my ass. On the other hand, if I rely soley on another human to determine whether I am ready or not, I am in big trouble.
I have no issues with folks doing their best to witness to me, but there does come a time where I lay down the rules and maintain control of the situation. Afterall, if the Old Man really is ready for me, there will be nothing I would be able to say or do to change that fact.
Either way, I am digging life just as I know it today with absoutely no regrets.
To my way of thinking there is a big difference between an individual sharing his sincere beliefs (for whatever purpose) that flow naturally from within. and organizations that look to actively recruit others to come to the AT to sell, convert, influence and otherwise interject themselves into the thru hiking experience of others.
Appalachian Tater
11-15-2006, 08:06
This whole thread reinforces my conviction that hikers should stay on the trail and preaches should stay in the church.
Appalachian Tater
11-15-2006, 08:06
PreacheRs. Preachers should stay in the church.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-15-2006, 08:24
After hearing his life story, I kindly asked him at what age did he say he was born again. He stated he was 48 years old. It was then; I was able to reassure him that he did not get saved until the time was right. If he firmly believed that born again Christians were doing Gods work, then only Gods would determine when someone was ready. I said to him with a smile that God had not determined that it was my time to be saved yet. He squirmed a little and was satisfied that he would not yet be able to save me.
I share this with my friends because; I will never know when my time may come. If I am not ready, no human power will be able to save my ass. On the other hand, if I rely solely on another human to determine whether I am ready or not, I am in big trouble.
I have no issues with folks doing their best to witness to me, but there does come a time where I lay down the rules and maintain control of the situation. After all, if the Old Man really is ready for me, there will be nothing I would be able to say or do to change that fact.Wow. Maybe someone should pass this on to those who are pushy with religion. I've always believed that when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.
On a personal note, I've had a nearly overwhelming push from inside to discuss my faith or my recovery from addiction a few times. I don't ignore such urges as every single time it has happened; the person with me was ready. Perhaps some of the missionaries hiking the trail are waiting for the small still voice from within - and if this is the case, I feel they are doing what their Master intended.
What I'm about to say will rub some the wrong way no doubt, but I believe that those who use the shotgun approach to mission work (pepper everyone in the area with the Word) are denying the power of God to point out who to approach and when. I believe their self-righteousness and pride gets in the way and makes their ministry far less effective than the Master intended. YMMV
Skidsteer
11-15-2006, 08:33
Agreed F.D. You know what is really irritating?
When the pushy types are so pushy they won't take yes for an answer.
Finally, some have mentioned people doing mission work on public lands as a potential problem. I personally hope America never gets so darned politically correct that people can't express their religious beliefs and share them with passing strangers in public.
And I hope that America never gets so darned p.c. that we are forced to put up with the sales pitches of every sort of religious adherent every time we venture into a public space. ;)
I honestly do not understand the compulsive need to discuss one's religion with a total stranger. What is the motivation? Why is this of such pressing importance to these people?
I admit that I find it coercive and even rude, which is why I am trying to understand the motivation behind it.
And I hope that America never gets so darned p.c. that we are forced to put up with the sales pitches of every sort of religious adherent every time we venture into a public space. ;)
I honestly do not understand the compulsive need to discuss one's religion with a total stranger. What is the motivation? Why is this of such pressing importance to these people?
I admit that I find it coercive and even rude, which is why I am trying to understand the motivation behind it.
I think it's like any addiction. If others are into it, it makes you feel better about yourself. IOW, nobody likes to party, or go to church, alone.
B.Jack said it best.. Any type of "Religion" and/or Spiritural Pursiut is VERY personal.. and should be looked at that way. MANY hikers are in pursuit of some sort of "higher power" on the AT.. when in the end.. that higher power is the AT itself... Helping Out is wonderful indeed... but I'm not for anyone pushing religion, ect.. "if" that is the case. GOD BLESS.. AND.. Trail Bless... now.. about that water becoming wine :)
Just Jeff
11-15-2006, 11:55
Helping others is the motivation.
Bit of a coincidence with this thread - we've lived here 16 months and Monday was the first time someone has knocked on our door to discuss religion. Nice old lady and wasn't pushy when I told her I was on my way to work (which was true). She asked about the Golden Rule passage and what I thought would happen to the world if everyone followed it.
dharmabum86
11-15-2006, 12:02
I, too, have to put in my Amen! I find solace, peace, gratitude, respect, or whatever you want to call, when I'm hiking. It's my way of connecting with nature and the greater whole. It may sound cheesy but it's a true feeling of mine. I don't expect everyone to agree or understand. I have my beliefs and they are in my heart. I never push them on anyone and don't care to discuss them as they are my beliefs. Just like each of you have yours.
I LOVE being out there with all different types of people! We are a group of people who have learned to respect the diversity of our peers....or so I'd like to think. :o
"Remote for detachment, narrow for chosen company, winding for leisure, lonely for contemplation, it beckons not merely north and south but upward to the body, mind and soul of man." - Myron Avery, In the Maine Woods, 1934
Amen, brothers Sly and Myron
Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-15-2006, 12:04
I am trying to understand the motivation behind it.If you saw someone about to walk off of a cliff hidden by undergrowth or heading into an area that would kill or injure them, would you warn them? Christianity - or at least some forms of it - is one of the few world religions that believes you're one of us or you're toast. Put the normal human desire to preserve life together with this belief, and you've got the answer to why they are so persistent.
Hey OJ, I agree with you totally.
Are you coming to the Southern Ruck this year? We're almost neghbors now, we'll have to get together.
It's hard to imagine a sillier post. Virtually all long distant trails are on public land, that means they are part of the DEmocratic process -- a part of politics. Political discussion is how trail and other issues are debated, understood, and eventually decided.
The opposite of political discussion is government by fiat, by dictatorship -- or at the very least, decisions from ignorance.
Weary
Well, it is my opinion that your are being "silly" if you think that people should be subjected to your or the other poster's unwanted religious or political debates/rants at the breakfast table.
The "on Pubic land" arguement? That is beyond silliness and just downright stupid, Weary. You are being inconsiderate of others and rude if you continue the discuussion at the breakfast table after being asked to stop.
Just to be clear... we are not talking about campfire or on the trail discussions.
Save it for a more appropriate setting.
dharmabum86
11-15-2006, 12:20
OH SLY!!! It's soo good to hear from you! You are my neighbor! I do plan on going to SoRuck. I'm actually going to call NOC and see if they have any openings. I can't wait for it. I didn't get to stay last long last year because we had Matt's daughter that weekend but this year I'm in! So is Matt! Let's do get together and hike some soon!!!
Hey OJ, I agree with you totally.
Are you coming to the Southern Ruck this year? We're almost neghbors now, we'll have to get together.
OH SLY!!! It's soo good to hear from you! You are my neighbor! I do plan on going to SoRuck. I'm actually going to call NOC and see if they have any openings. I can't wait for it. I didn't get to stay last long last year because we had Matt's daughter that weekend but this year I'm in! So is Matt! Let's do get together and hike some soon!!!
Cool, stay in touch! Hey there are lots of job opportunities at the NOC. I think it would be a great place to work.
http://www.noc.com/jobs.html
I believe their self-righteousness and pride gets in the way and makes their ministry far less effective than the Master intended. YMMV
Just the the word, the idea, that people that do not agree with their beliefs need to be saved, is a pretty good indicator of their real understanding of what it is all about and how they should go about speading their message.
And I hope that America never gets so darned p.c. that we are forced to put up with the sales pitches of every sort of religious adherent every time we venture into a public space. ;)
I honestly do not understand the compulsive need to discuss one's religion with a total stranger. What is the motivation? Why is this of such pressing importance to these people?
I admit that I find it coercive and even rude, which is why I am trying to understand the motivation behind it.
Some religions -- possibly to self-perpetuate -- look upon it as their DUTY to prosyletize. The "clergy" tell their flocks to go out and convert. The worst of them try to poison our laws and political parties.
Thanks to everyone for the civil responses to my question. :)
I didn't grow up with this sort of thing, so it just seems like an odd thing to do, tantamount to walking up to someone on the street and saying "Can I tell you all about how much I love spaghetti?" Much too familiar for me; YMMV.
I have very little experience with proselytizers, other than a few door-knockers, and a polite sign seems to keep them away. I've never encountered one while hiking.
After hearing his life story, I kindly asked him at what age did he say he was born again. He stated he was 48 years old. It was then, I was able to reassure him that he did not get saved until the time was right. If he firmly believed that born again Cristians were doing Gods work, then only Gods would determine when someone was ready. I said to him with a smile that God had not determined that it was my time to be saved yet. He squirmed a little and was satisfied that he would not yet be able to save me.
I share this with my friends because, I will never know when my time may come. If I am not ready, no human power will be able to save my ass. On the other hand, if I rely soley on another human to determine whether I am ready or not, I am in big trouble.
But we also can't forget that with free will comes the resonsibility to act; IOW, God will provide us the opportunity to accept Him at some point (or many times) in our lives, but we are the ones who must ultimately take the action of believing Him or not. This is what free will entails: choice.
But yeah, I agree that he can't automatically expect you to "be ready" at the moment he speaks with you. I read that it takes 7 times of someone hearing the Gospel for them to, I guess as you say, "be ready." But of course, this is just a statistic...
I read that it takes 7 times of someone hearing the Gospel for them to, I guess as you say, "be ready."
Ah! The "blessed repetition." Or that's what they used to say in AA - back when I was regular member of the club. Of course, that program is not religious. That's probably why it worked for me.
The Weasel
11-15-2006, 15:13
And I hope that America never gets so darned p.c. that we are forced to put up with the sales pitches of every sort of religious adherent every time we venture into a public space. ;)
I honestly do not understand the compulsive need to discuss one's religion with a total stranger. What is the motivation? Why is this of such pressing importance to these people?
I admit that I find it coercive and even rude, which is why I am trying to understand the motivation behind it.
Gosh, Spandy!
I don't think I've ever seen such a breathtaking lack of understanding - much less tolerance - of the Constitution, the AT, and religion every wrapped into one post, at least on this forum. Where to start?
Well, let's start with "America getting PC" about this sort of thing. You see, it all started in 1789, when most states refused to ratify the proposed Constitution since it didn't have a Bill of Rights. So they wrote one...and the First Amendment has this horrible "PC" thingy in it called, "free exercise of religion." So yeah, Tom and George and Ben and all those other dumbass liberals were PC. They said, "People can exercise their religion, including preaching it and seeking members, in public places." There are som other nasty "PC" thingys in the Bill of Rights, too, but we'll deal with those another day.
And the AT - hate to break your heart here! - isn't a private club composed of members of the ATC, or WhiteBlaze or - gasp! - even Trail Place that we can kick those stupid religious types out of. The ATG is a composite of public lands, including National Parks and Forests, State Parks and Forests, and other public lands, and even, where private owners have granted easements, those are generally in favor of the National Park Service or other public bodies. So dang! The AT is public property for all Americans, not just those who are intolerant. While some limits can be places by government on some First Amendment activity, there aren't a lot, and that's a good thing. We call that "democracy."
And what is "their motivation" that you can't understand? It's not very complex, and it's not a lot different from the motivation of people here to "share the great news" about the AT and who want to convince others about the ways to hike. (Yeah, all of you who know my dog rants - and have seen the other side, too - know what real "religious" arguments can be like! Remember, as the dyslexic atheist thruhiker once said, "There is no Dog!!!) So think about it, guy. They are doing something that is fairly common among humans: Sharing good news. Except evangelical Christians capitalize the "G" and "N" in "good news." They think it is. Seems harmless to me. Maybe they're right. I'll know in a few years. I'll try to drop you a note. The flames should make it bright enough to read.
And as for your offense at all this, in several dozen years of being around evangelicals (including most of one year on the AT), I haven't found any who were "offensive" or "rude" by any honest objective standard. Most evangelicals wait for someone to approach them ("What is that fish symbol on your pack for?") or, if they start the conversation, politely stop when the other person registers a request that they do so. I think I was forced to endure such hardships oh, twice or so between Springer and Virginia. (Thanks, Gary. Great pancakes!)
So I'm sorry, Spandau, but you need to recharge your tolerance battery a little. America - the United States, that is - is what some of us still hope will always be: "A free country."
The Weasel
Or that's what they used to say in AA - back when I was regular member of the club. Of course, that program is not religious. That's probably why it worked for me.
Congrats on your successful completion!:banana
Congrats on your successful completion!:banana
Well, you never actually graduate once you're a member of the club. That's why it's called an ism and not a wasm. ;)
Well, you never actually graduate once you're a member of the club. That's why it's called an ism and not a wasm. ;)
HAHA! :D I'll have to write that one down
Footslogger
11-15-2006, 15:27
Well, you never actually graduate once you're a member of the club. That's why it's called an ism and not a wasm. ;)
============================
Kinda like HOTEL CALIFORNIA ??
'Slogger
The Weasel
11-15-2006, 15:34
Ah! The "blessed repetition." Or that's what they used to say in AA - back when I was regular member of the club. Of course, that program is not religious. That's probably why it worked for me.
Mowgli - AA may not be "sectarian" (i.e. identifiable as belonging to a particuar denomination) but it sure is religious. "God" and "Him" are specific parts of at least 5 of the "Twelve Steps" in the Book.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program
I admire you that it's working for you today!
The Weasel
RockyTrail
11-15-2006, 15:42
The AT is public property for all Americans, not just those who are intolerant.
The Weasel
Great post, Weasel.
Maybe lawyers aren't so bad after all:D
Footslogger
11-15-2006, 15:44
[quote=The Weasel;271890] but it sure is religious.
======================================
Might be symantics ...but during the time I spent there I always thought of if as being more SPIRITUAL than religious.
'Slogger
Boat Drinks
11-15-2006, 16:35
Who's "truth" is truthier?? The Christians? The Muslims? Judaism? Janism? Buddism? Hinduism? Shinto? Zorostrianism? Rastafarian? Mormonism? Christian Scientists? Paganism?
You forgot Hefnerism, those that believe Hugh Hefner is God....:banana :D
Mowgli - AA may not be "sectarian" (i.e. identifiable as belonging to a particuar denomination) but it sure is religious. "God" and "Him" are specific parts of at least 5 of the "Twelve Steps" in the Book.
The Weasel
Well, we could talk about this one for weeks. That is often the impression of folks who haven't attended meetings, and the law has taken that view (I know you're a lawyer) in some high profile cases.
All AA requires is a belief in a power greater than yourself. Not a belief in any deity. God is often used as an acronym (ex: Group Of Drunks).
The claim that AA is religious is most often used by folks to rationalize not attending, and therefore continuing to drink. I know, because it was my excuse not to go to meetings for several years.
Send me a PM if you want to continue this discussion offline.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-15-2006, 17:11
Mowgli - AA may not be "sectarian" (i.e. identifiable as belonging to a particuar denomination) but it sure is religious. "God" and "Him" are specific parts of at least 5 of the "Twelve Steps" in the Book.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program
I admire you that it's working for you today!
The WeaselThe fellows that started AA did so in the US in the late 1930's. The phrase" God, as we understood Him" was scandalous enough at the time. Today, the term 'Higher Power' is commonly used and I've seen many, many things other than the Judeo-Christian God used as higher powers.
Probably my favorite was the higher power of an old street drunk who had drank so long he was permanently mentally impaired. He attended AA meetings in a clubhouse in an old building where an old radiator hung near the ceiling as a heat source. He was struggling with the concept of a higher power until one day he looked up at the radiator and announced it was his higher power because it was higher than him and kept him warm. When that old building was torn down to make way for a new road, three AA members (one an Episcopal priest, one a Baptist deacon and the other an agnostic) carefully removed the radiator and mounted it on the ceiling of the new clubhouse location (which had central air and heat) so that 'wino Joe' would have his higher power.
That is an example of true love and religious tolerance.
Lone Wolf
11-15-2006, 17:12
I hang out with GOD often. Especially at Gatherings, Trail Days and Rucks.:)
They said, "People can exercise their religion, including preaching it and seeking members, in public places."
Exact quotes. Who said that, when and where? And you normally need a permit to assemble on public land.
[:D
When's the CoRuck?:banana
Feb 23rd - 25th. Just about to make the "official post". Hope you can get away from the free soaks for a bit! :D
Feb 23rd - 25th. Just about to make the "official post". Hope you can get away from the free soaks for a bit! :D
Sounds great! I'll dry out for a few days.:)
The Weasel
11-15-2006, 20:24
Exact quotes. Who said that, when and where? And you normally need a permit to assemble on public land.
The First Amendment, Dude. And the Supreme Court and most courts in most states. A permit is only needed for a significant gathering and only then if there is a requirement in place for permits. But if I want to sit at an AT Trail Shelter with a crucifix on the ground and say, "Anyone want to pray with me?" Well, as I said...George and Ben and Tom and those dudes said, "Let him do it."
The Weasel
Blissful
11-15-2006, 20:34
I was pretty much an alcoholic many years back, drank my white wine and rum and cokes constantly. Even drove drunk. Bad, bad news. I was a pretty depressed and lonely person to boot. Then I encountered the real God while I was dead drunk. Not the church God, the stained glass window God, the God of defunct preachers and right wingers or anyone else's God, but I mean a real personal encounter with the Real, Living God in the bathroom of all places (!). Hadn't the need to feel the buzz from booze since (and that was close to 20 years ago).
So God be with all seeking to overcome this and anything else. :)
And don't let others try to convert you. It don't work that way. Have your own personal encounter with the real God yourself.
If you want to, that is...
Rain Man
11-15-2006, 20:52
TI have very little experience with proselytizers, other than a few door-knockers, and a polite sign seems to keep them away. I've never encountered one while hiking.
Pray that you don't?!
Rain:sunMan
.
Gosh, Spandy!
I don't think I've ever seen such a breathtaking lack of understanding - much less tolerance - of the Constitution, the AT, and religion every wrapped into one post, at least on this forum. Where to start?
Huh?
The Constitution says nothing about having to "put up" with others. One simple option is to simply walk away. Another option might be to put on your head phones. And while I don't recommend it, telling someone to "**** Off" is still a legal option in most jurisdictions.
Those who would suggest that Constitution says otherwise are simply wrong.
Respecting others is important. But is goes both ways. Actively recruiting Christians to come to raod crossings to gain converts is not respecting hikers or the AT experience, IMO.
Monkeyboy
11-15-2006, 21:20
Handing out free food and drinks isn't respecting hikers, but telling them to ****** off is?
Like I said people, either enjoy their hospitality or don't.
You can't have your cake and eat it, too.....
I don't recommend telling anyone to **** off.
I think common wisdom is that whatever happens at a road crossing is irrelavant to the AT. SUch areas are by definition somehow apart.
I don't buy that.
Just to make an example, think of how the Trail would suffer if there was a McDonalds at every road crossing. Believe me, it would suck.
Can you pass by the magic of people who have come to the woods with an agenda? Sure. But their presence changes things. If it happens somehow, well, that's life. But to have people actively promoting this kind of thing is something else all together. IMO.
Appalachian Tater
11-15-2006, 21:34
All the good threads seem to eventually......go to hell.
All the good threads seem to eventually......go to hell.[/quote]
And it is highly unlikely that anyone is going to SAVE this one, LOL:D
All you need to do to find Truth is to believe in the Creator.
The thread creator, that is.
Skidsteer
11-15-2006, 21:59
All you need to do to find Truth is to believe in the Creator.
The thread creator, that is.
In the beginning was.......
RickBoudrie? :D
max patch
11-15-2006, 22:38
Actively recruiting Christians to come to raod crossings to gain converts is not respecting hikers or the AT experience, IMO.
For the sake of argument, lets agree that what you say is true.
Similarly, those "trail angels" that come to road crossings and pass out food are also not respecting the trail.
I'm amused at the hypocrits (not you, Rick, I don't know your beliefs on the issue) who say that "trail feeds" are great and if you don't want them to just "walk by" but when it come to Christians dispensing salvation they don't want them there in the first place. Inconsistent!
You can't have your cake and eat it, too.....
Then why the hell would I want cake in the first place?
And, it's totally untrue anyway. I, just this afternoon, had cake AND ate it. And it was tasty. Carvel ice cream cake, with those yummy crunchy things in the middle. Mmmmmmm...
Still, if I didn't want cake, and someone insisted I eat some, and wouldn't stop insisting, and kept trying to force me to eat that cake, and tried to shove the cake down my throat, then yeah, I'd tell them to **** off.
Monkeyboy
11-15-2006, 23:04
And how many of these people are forcing it down your throat.......
I read the article.....they stated that they hand out the food and simply tell people that it was donated by the church.....if they want to talk more, they would, otherwise enjoy the free food
What is the big deal? Eat it or don't......
Skidsteer
11-15-2006, 23:05
Then why the hell would I want cake in the first place?
And, it's totally untrue anyway. I, just this afternoon, had cake AND ate it. And it was tasty. Carvel ice cream cake, with those yummy crunchy things in the middle. Mmmmmmm...
Still, if I didn't want cake, and someone insisted I eat some, and wouldn't stop insisting, and kept trying to force me to eat that cake, and tried to shove the cake down my throat, then yeah, I'd tell them to **** off.
The cake you ate this afternoon is gone.
You ate it, hence you don't have it anymore.
Comprende? :)
Carvel ice cream cake, with those yummy crunchy things in the middle. Mmmmmmm...
.
Man.... I miss those. Long live "Cookie Puss"!
http://www.x-entertainment.com/articles/0827/
It was just the coolest to have a Carvel ice cream cake for the birthday...
MedicineMan
11-16-2006, 01:27
no religeon and no politics...so now let them be spoken. Dont discuss religeon or politics on the trail--and that includes shelters.
Lone Wolf
11-16-2006, 09:37
Any Unitarian Universalists here? I went to a UU church last nite. Seems cool.
Skidsteer
11-16-2006, 09:46
I don't know a lot about U.U., Wolf, but I can think of a couple advantages you might like about it:
-They're pretty loose about creeds, etc.
-You apparently were able to enter and exit the structure without the roof trusses collapsing. :D
I'll refrain from listing the disadvantages.
Lone Wolf
11-16-2006, 09:46
www.uua.org/aboutuua/principles.html
Alligator
11-16-2006, 09:47
Man.... I miss those. Long live "Cookie Puss"!
http://www.x-entertainment.com/articles/0827/
It was just the coolest to have a Carvel ice cream cake for the birthday...Me too. Although not my favorite, don't forget Fudgie the Whale.
My Dad used to pretend that the car was taking control and drive me into the Carvel parking lot. He'd fight with the steering wheel:jump .
I had a paper route in my early teens. and Carvel was a regular stop on my route. :banana
Yeah, Cookiepuss rocked. Never had Fudgie the Whale, though I imagine I would have loved him. Mmmmmmmmm... fudge.
Sheesh, 9AM and I'm already thinking about ice cream cake. ;)
Any Unitarian Universalists here? I went to a UU church last nite. Seems cool.
The Unitarians are the only church I've ever been tempted to join. I figure if it was okay for Emerson, it might serve my needs. But no UU ever asked me to join so I was able to resist the temptation.
Well, at the age of 14 I and a brother took special lessions from a Baptist Minister so we could be baptised with the rest of the Sunday School class we had once attended. After one session, my brother remarked, "I wish you wouldn't look so skeptical when the minister is talking."
Luckily, a few weeks later, the minister divorced his wife, resigned his church, and married a wealthy parishioner, so that temptation also was removed.
Weary
RockyTrail
11-16-2006, 10:56
no religeon and no politics...so now let them be spoken. Dont discuss religeon or politics on the trail--and that includes shelters.
And gear talk, ....and the 2nd Amendment discussions,....and how many miles you did today,....and Iraq, ...and other people's gear choices,....and cellphone usage,...and the Civil War,....and whether you're a whiteblaze purist or not,.....is your truck Chevy or Ford,.....and grits or hashbrowns....
Gee, don't you just love the sense of FREEDOM you get from hiking the AT!:rolleyes:
HYOH and peace, brother:sun
Just Jeff
11-16-2006, 11:05
Hold up now - you can't even talk about grits and hashbrowns?!
Scattered smothered covered and chunked (with no commas). Though grits with butter floating in a puddle on top are a close second.
Any Unitarian Universalists here? I went to a UU church last nite. Seems cool.
There's lots of famous UU's including many of our founding fathers.
http://www.famousuus.com/
Grits are what I do with my teeth on an uphill 18-20 miles into a good day on the trail.
RockyTrail
11-16-2006, 11:18
Hold up now - you can't even talk about grits and hashbrowns?!
Scattered smothered covered and chunked (with no commas). Though grits with butter floating in a puddle on top are a close second.
Hee hee...amen to that!:) Waffle House here I come!
Just Jeff
11-16-2006, 11:21
No WH here in CA, but Denny's is an almost-acceptable substitute. Can't wait to get back the East coast!
Lone Wolf
11-16-2006, 11:23
Huddle Houses are better and cleaner. At least the waitresses have teeth and no visible jailhouse tatoos.
I went to a WH last week with my BIL. They seriously screwed up the order, the grits were cold and as soon as we walked out the door, my BIL started puking his guts out! Plus they're not cheap like they used to be, everything ala carte, it will be awhile before I got back. HH is only slightly better. IMO, of the three, Denny's rules...
Huddle Houses are better and cleaner. At least the waitresses have teeth and no visible jailhouse tatoos.
You haven't been to NC Huddle Houses...instead of star rating they get tooth ratings, as in how many the waitresses have:eek: .:rolleyes:
Rain Man
11-16-2006, 11:57
Grits are what I do with my teeth on an uphill 18-20 miles into a good day on the trail.
DAMNYANKEE!!!!
:D
Rain:sunMan
.
>I don't think I've ever seen such a breathtaking lack of understanding - much less tolerance - of the Constitution, the AT, and religion every wrapped into one post, at least on this forum. Where to start?<
You could start with your own misunderstanding of what I wrote, particularly the use of the emoticon. I was ribbing Frolicking Dinosaurs a little, using her own language, which usage she didn't seem to have any difficulty understanding.
>So yeah, Tom and George and Ben and all those other dumbass liberals were PC. They said, "People can exercise their religion, including preaching it and seeking members, in public places."<
And the U.S. Supreme Court has extended the protection of the First Amendment to the nonreligious as well: "[t]he Establishment Clause requires the same respect for the atheist as it does for the adherent of a Christian faith. As we wrote, "the Court has unambiguously concluded that the individual freedom of conscience protected by the First Amendment embodies the right to select any religious faith or none at all." Van Orden V. Perry, 545 U.S. 677, 125 S. Ct. 2854, 162 L.Ed.2d. 607 (2005), quoting Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38, 105 S. Ct. 2479, 86 L.Ed.2d. 29 (1985).
Pity about that, eh?
You seem to have confused the right to preach with a right to be heard. A person can preach, but nobody is obligated to listen, or to give the words any credence. In fact, should the hypothetical listener choose to ignore the speaker, or walk away from the speaker, they are well within their rights to do so.
I personally subscribe to the Jack Tarlin School of Discourse About Touchy Subjects, and your response to my post is a superb illustration of why Mr. Tarlin is a wise man.
>The AT is public property for all Americans, not just those who are intolerant.<
Where did I even remotely mention banning anyone from the trail? I asked a simple question about the motivation of religious people to share their religion, and Frolicking Dinosaurs and other people of faith answered my question quite satisfactorily without getting their knickers in a knot.
(Thank you, everyone else; your responses did help my understanding.)
Deine Spandy
The Weasel
11-16-2006, 13:43
And I hope that America never gets so darned p.c. that we are forced to put up with the sales pitches of every sort of religious adherent every time we venture into a public space. ;)
I honestly do not understand the compulsive need to discuss one's religion with a total stranger. What is the motivation? Why is this of such pressing importance to these people?
I admit that I find it coercive and even rude, which is why I am trying to understand the motivation behind it.
Well, those are your words, Spandy...sure doesn't sound very tolerant, and doesn't sound very joking, either.
By the way, it's risky to cite cases to a lawyer: Van Orden makes it clear that anyone, regardless of their faith (or lack of it) can express their opinions - or preach, if you want to call such expressions that - pretty much anywhere or anytime in public places unless there is a truly compelling reason why not. That doesn't make it "coercive or even rude."
As for 'not understanding their motivation', well, it's a little surprising that there's someone on this planet over legal drinking ages who didn't understand why a believer in something would want to share that belief. But maybe you don't have a television. Glad you understand now. Perhaps that will help you tolerate people different from you.
Ihre Weasel
Boat Drinks
11-16-2006, 14:01
I just finished what I thought was a Cool book for those, like me, that are looking for spiritualism without the dogmas or goofy rules of religions. Not only that , but it demonstrates for those who are turned off by "religions" that it is OK to follow your own spiritual path and your search for oneness with the "Source." I found the author verbalized a lot of what I already knew inside, but couldn't yet classify. It's called God on Your Own : Finding A Spiritual Path Outside Religion. It complimented my spiritual preparation for my Thru also!:sun
Lone Wolf
11-16-2006, 14:12
Joseph Campbell writes some pretty good *****t on the subject too.
Please refrain from being an ASSHAT at the table. :(
Given this opinion why do persist in participating in conversations that you are offended by? Are you a masochist or something?
If you find any topic I bring up at the breakfast table to be unsavory, just send a polite signal and I will go with any topic you prfer, so long as I find it interesting. I also said in the statement you so viciously attacked that:
"If I'm not in a mood for debate and/or conversation I'll keep to myslef, and if you press me I'll let you know. If, after that, you persist in a rude or annoying fashion, then you'd be in the wrong regardless of what topic you're on about. I know how to deal with that, too."
That means that I expect people to be polite, and sensitive to the feelings of others regardless of what topic they bring up. So obviously I would notice your inordinate distaste for religious or political discussion. (I wonder how you manage to moderate your political opinions?)
I value courtesy above all other social values, and would not be discourteous to you, either online or in person.
But any topic that another cares to bring up in a courteous fashion and wishes to discuss without condescension or sensitivity to my preference (sometimes I'm not in a mood to discuss anything at all, although I wouldn't be rude about it) is okay with me. The same ought to be true for every person. Otherwise they are in the position of being judgemental and potentially discourteous. Jack's post was excellent on the topic, since he had a polite response, allowing the other person an oppurtunity for the person to change the subject in a polite fashion. Once they have failed to behave in kind they have forfeited their expectation of courtesy from you, and you may then call them an asshat. I personally despise conversations about gear at shelters, and will try to maneuver the conversation politely towards topics I prefer. But I don't go calling people asshats if they have a conversation about gear infront of me. I just go smoke a bowl or something and check out a view or visit the privy. All conversations end. Context determines the appropriateness of any topic. You're absolutism in this regard is actually quite discourteous.
Rain Man
11-16-2006, 14:21
By the way, it's risky to cite cases to a lawyer: Van Orden makes it clear that anyone, regardless of their faith (or lack of it) can express their opinions - or preach, if you want to call such expressions that - pretty much anywhere or anytime in public places unless there is a truly compelling reason why not. That doesn't make it "coercive or even rude."
Doesn't make it polite, either. Your implication that if a court says it's legal then it's not rude is based on a non sequitar. Often courts say things are legal in spite of being offensive. Your legal extrapolations in this debate keep going over the top and thereby you sometimes shoot yourself in the foot, or close enough you should jump.
Moderation might be thought of as holy.
Rain:sunMan
.
Alligator
11-16-2006, 14:30
I just finished what I thought was a Cool book for those, like me, that are looking for spiritualism without the dogmas or goofy rules of religions. Not only that , but it demonstrates for those who are turned off by "religions" that it is OK to follow your own spiritual path and your search for oneness with the "Source." I found the author verbalized a lot of what I already knew inside, but couldn't yet classify. It's called God on Your Own : Finding A Spiritual Path Outside Religion. It complimented my spiritual preparation for my Thru also!:sun Are you preaching to us:-? .
LOL.
Don't go leaving this book in all the shelters, ya hear :bse!
Boat Drinks
11-16-2006, 14:34
Are you preaching to us:-? .
LOL.
Don't go leaving this book in all the shelters, ya hear :bse!
Heh, no way! it was just a book critique!!!:D
Boat Drinks
11-16-2006, 14:39
I just go smoke a bowl or something and check out a view
I want to Hike with YOU!!!!!!!:D
Doesn't make it polite, either. Your implication that if a court says it's legal then it's not rude is based on a non sequitar. Often courts say things are legal in spite of being offensive.
Rain:sunMan
.[/quote]
So true, We have a small group of holy rollers in our small town that magically appear on the street on weekends hollerin for all they are worth about how everyone who doesn't believe in their god is headin for h**l . Talk about rude, This in my mind is disturbing the peace and if someone in nonreligous garb were doing this they would probably be admitted to the insane asylum. Why these people deserve special rights is beyond me.
Churches are for preaching
Trails are for hiking.
Lone Wolf
11-16-2006, 14:42
Hell is life drying up.
The Weasel[/quote]
>Well, those are your words, Spandy...sure doesn't sound very tolerant, and doesn't sound very joking, either.<
Hence the emoticon.
>By the way, it's risky to cite cases to a lawyer:<
You aren't the only lawyer in this conversation, but I'm beginning to wonder if I might be.:rolleyes:
>Van Orden makes it clear that anyone, regardless of their faith (or lack of it) can express their opinions - or preach, if you want to call such expressions that - pretty much anywhere or anytime in public places unless there is a truly compelling reason why not. <
Of course, which is why I never made the argument that they didn't. Straw men burn nicely, don't you think?
The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment actually applies to governmental regulation or promotion of religion.
I am glad that you seem to have realized that the protections of the First Amendment apply to everyone, regardless of religious persuasion or lack thereof. A small step, but Rome wasn't built in a day.
>That doesn't make it "coercive or even rude."<
I'm afraid that, in this instance, those qualities are in the eye of the beholder, annoying though that might be to those wishing to be heard.
>As for 'not understanding their motivation', well, it's a little surprising that there's someone on this planet over legal drinking ages who didn't understand why a believer in something would want to share that belief.<
Why is that so surprising to you? I find it surprising that a believer would feel the need for outside reinforcement of deeply-held beliefs.
Spandy-o
Ihre Weasel
Alligator
11-16-2006, 14:51
Heh, no way! it was just a book critique!!!:DGive me some breakfast and maybe I'll check it out.
Boat Drinks
11-16-2006, 14:54
Give me some breakfast and maybe I'll check it out.
ROFLMAO, that made coke come out my nose! :D :clap :jump :D
Any Unitarian Universalists here? I went to a UU church last nite. Seems cool.
The U.U's are quite popular here in Boulder.
I went to a U.U. mass/cerememony/gathering/whatever with my girlfriend at the time.
Reminded me of religious channel surfing!
First the song "Hallelujah" made famous in Shrek was played on acoustic guitar.
Then they went to Shinto prayer...
Then a traditional Yiddish song was played...
THEN, I swear I am not making this up, a gospel song was played...
Something for everyone ?!?!?!?
Ever hear the joke:
"Darn Unitarians burnt a "?" on my front lawn!!!!"
halftime
11-16-2006, 15:04
You aren't the only lawyer in this conversation,
This might partially explain why this thread is so long.
Hold up now - you can't even talk about grits and hashbrowns?!
Scattered smothered covered and chunked (with no commas). Though grits with butter floating in a puddle on top are a close second.
Grits...hashbrowns..or HOMEFRIES!
Much better...
http://www.chow.com/recipes/10433
Homefries are to hashbrowns what a good "bar and grill" burger is to a McD's burger. Plain pototaoes that are crunchy (and often frozen?) Blech. Potatoes fried with onions and spices? Yeah!
Visiting the folks for Thanksgiving. High on my agenda is a good greasy spoon with eggs, corn beef hash and delicious home fries on the side. Yum.
I may have moved from my home area...but the food is much better there! ;)
I want to Hike with YOU!!!!!!!:D
Anytime. Religious concepts are more fun to contemplate when stoned, I've discovered. :p
The Weasel
11-16-2006, 16:24
Doesn't make it polite, either. Your implication that if a court says it's legal then it's not rude is based on a non sequitar. Often courts say things are legal in spite of being offensive. Your legal extrapolations in this debate keep going over the top and thereby you sometimes shoot yourself in the foot, or close enough you should jump.
Moderation might be thought of as holy.
Rain:sunMan
.
Well, Rain, your first sentence is correct, and the second one isn't what I said: The original point here was, more or less, "Why do these people do this? I don't understand it, and I think it's offensive/rude that they do so." As for the second, actually, it's pretty rare for a court to say - in constitutional matters, at least - that something that's constititutionally permissible is inherently offensive. What they do say is that the First Amendment permits the expression of ideas that some people may find offensive. Others don't. That's what is meant by what a lot of courts say when they refer to "the marketplace of ideas." As a result, unless there is some massive governmental interest that justifies shutting someone up, there is nothing inherently wrong - or rude - about any particular opinion or how it's shared. That's why it's OK to advocate using nuclear weapons against, say, Nicaragua, but it's equally OK to prohibit disclosing how to build them. But there aren't a lot of times that "compelling governmental interest can be shown.
But yes, expressing one's opinion in public places is a lot like using nuclear weapons. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. But the first point - "why do they do it" - is one that has two parts: First, people who believe in sharing their religion and calling others to join with them do so because they can (that's the legal part) and second, because they believe they are helping others by doing so. Nuclear weapons, on the other hand, are generally considered harmful to the recipient, both by how they are used and the result after use.
Despite the conventional wisdom - mostly, it seems, from people who either haven't done the AT or seem to be talking about other places with legions of "holy rollers" screaming epithets - I don't see people passing out water and food at trail crossings as inherently rude, while Spandau certainly thinks they are. And despite the 'conventional wisdom' about "holy rollers" and such, I frankly have never seen offensive behavior by any religious group outside of a large, formal demonstration, and rarely even those, and those were fringe groups, at best. And that's a far cry from what is alleged to happen on the trail.
But I'm amazed - and saddened - at the bile that is spewed at people of different beliefs who aren't accused of doing more than offering to share those beliefs with others. I'm an Episcopalian, and we don't proselytize aggresively (read: never, it seems), and we tend to have pretty mellow services, sometimes too much so. So 'moderation' comes easily in terms of sharing my faith. But the tone of this discussion is, "Let's tell all these disgusting people to get awat from OUR trail, because WE think that what they do is offensive." Leaving aside the elitist aspect to that, there's an admonition about that from the Bible, when Jesus said to a critic, "Why do you see the little speck in my eye, but you can't see the log in your own?" In other words, why is moderation and tolerance something for others here - "Hey, Bible thumpers! Get outta my trail! - but not for us to say, "Thanks, no. Bye!"
When I walked into the bunkhouse at the Blueberry Patch, I saw a few small religious tracts on the table, in a basket, and they had a rubber stamp from a local Baptist church. Gary never said anything about them to me or, to my knowledge, anyone else, although it's well known that he runs the Patch as a form of mission to others. It was up to me to respond, or not, and what I did and didn't do was solely my choice. Much as it will be to Spandau's to stop, and chat, and perhaps learn that "holy rollers" are moms and pops and brothers and sisters and sons and daughters just like the rest of us. Or he can walk on by.
Such people have the right to be in the same places as we do - it's legal - and not inherently "rude and offensive" for doing so just because some people don't agree with what they do or believe, Perhaps Spandau and others should look in the mirror as they contemplate 'rudeness' and the need for 'moderation' by others, and, in place of suspicion for those he doesn't - or didn't - understand, find graciousness in his heart for the presence.
The Weasel
Skidsteer
11-16-2006, 19:01
No WH here in CA, but Denny's is an almost-acceptable substitute. Can't wait to get back the East coast!
No WH in California?:eek:
Where do Califorinians go to smoke?
Just Jeff
11-16-2006, 19:32
CA was the first to pass the "no smoking in public establishments" law, I think. I can't remember the last time I saw someone smoke inside.
The Weasel
11-16-2006, 19:36
No WH in California?:eek:
Where do Califorinans go to smoke?
Sidewalks. Alleys. Some parks. Their own homes. Inside cars.
Oh yeah, and Nevada. ANYwhere in Nevada.
The Weasel
Jester2000
11-16-2006, 20:27
Still, if I didn't want cake, and someone insisted I eat some, and wouldn't stop insisting, and kept trying to force me to eat that cake, and tried to shove the cake down my throat, then yeah, I'd tell them to **** off.
But, um, what if it's REALLY good?
Some observations:
-- Haven't really been exposed to overtly pushy religious folk on the trail, tho' if I did, I suppose it would bother me. On the one hand, religion, I think, is an integral part of the society I flee from when I enter the woods. On the other hand, I have five completely different fingers.
-- I have received much help and encouragement from people who are religious, and I have to believe that it is their faith that propells them to help others. A Unitarian Minister took me in when I was injured, saving my thru, and others helped in smaller, but still meaningful, ways. None of them preached at me. They helped me because they thought that it was the right thing to do. And because they thought that secretly I was an angel.
-- Some people are unaware that Lone Wolf owns the copyright on
"********"
-- Some people are unaware that you're allowed to pray to anyone you want, including Mary. You're just not supposed to worship them. Catholics pray to Mary to intercede on their behalf. 'Cause if you want someone to do something for you, asking their mom to ask for you is a pretty good strategy (the actual message behind the wedding feast of Cannan story (bet you thought it was about marriage)).
-- The Mason-Dixon line has been renamed "The Waffle House-IHOP Line."
-- BFitz comes across as rude to people even when he's being polite.
-- The church in Billville, like our feed, is far enough from the trail that it can be easily avoided. It is called "Our Lady of Perpetual Pantlessness."
Anyone hike with these folks this year?
I hiked with them and they are great people. They help organize the medical services next to the church at trail days. I'm not christian, but enjoyed serveral good conversations (not sermons) with them. The only problem I have with handing literature to hikers is that they usually end up taking up space in the shelters.
Jan LiteShoe
11-16-2006, 23:11
There's lots of famous UU's including many of our founding fathers.
http://www.famousuus.com/
I like Abigail Adams. She was sharp, and sassy. She knew the score. :)
For those interested in discussing religion, you can go to this interesting website (http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/) and do so.
We're not discussing religion, we're discussing discussing religion.
I hiked with them and they are great people. They help organize the medical services next to the church at trail days. I'm not christian, but enjoyed serveral good conversations (not sermons) with them. The only problem I have with handing literature to hikers is that they usually end up taking up space in the shelters.
It sounds to me that these are good folks.:sun Some folks do go over the top....what , w/ sending you to hell and all,:rolleyes: with their religion. Those over the top types can be hard to humor.:o
Folks who answer thier call and set an example I can respect.
Folks who pass judgment and send you to hell are not very sensitive or polite. :(
smokymtnsteve
11-19-2006, 21:03
Doesn't make it polite, either. Your implication that if a court says it's legal then it's not rude is based on a non sequitar. Often courts say things are legal in spite of being offensive. Your legal extrapolations in this debate keep going over the top and thereby you sometimes shoot yourself in the foot, or close enough you should jump.
Moderation might be thought of as holy.
Rain:sunMan
.
old one leg shot hissself in da foot,,,and then they cut it off,,,course ole one leg is a religious feller:D
Jack Tarlin
11-19-2006, 21:21
I dunno, Nean. Being concerned about the standing of your soul is one thing, but for someone to tell their hiker houseguests that they're on the Highway to Hell is a bit over the top.
In Boston, serving pie and coffee to guests is a fine thing to do.
Telling them that they're headed to certain damnation as you spray on their
Reddi Whip is simply bad form.
But what do I know? Maybe they do it different in North Carolina.
Or maybe Sartre was right.....he was, after all, the guy who said "Hell is other people."
And sometimes, they're servin' pie.
I dunno, Nean. Being concerned about the standing of your soul is one thing, but for someone to tell their hiker houseguests that they're on the Highway to Hell is a bit over the top.
In Boston, serving pie and coffee to guests is a fine thing to do.
Telling them that they're headed to certain damnation as you spray on their
Reddi Whip is simply bad form.
But what do I know? Maybe they do it different in North Carolina.
Or maybe Sartre was right.....he was, after all, the guy who said "Hell is other people."
And sometimes, they're servin' pie.
I'm at a loss too Jack.:confused: We both agree that telling somebody that they are going to hell is over the top.:eek:
I know I don't live in N.C.:)
I think you're right about the pie though.;)
Well, I kind of expect extremely religious people to think I'm going to hell, considering the fact that if they ask me I tell them that I think their superstitions are silly. Not believing in their religion is incompatible with not going to hell. What else would you expect them to say? Ususally they are very nice about it and only say it with genuine concern. That doesn't offend me. If they're serving pie, so much the better.
Well, I kind of expect extremely religious people to think I'm going to hell, considering the fact that if they ask me I tell them that I think their superstitions are silly. Not believing in their religion is incompatible with not going to hell. What else would you expect them to say? Ususally they are very nice about it and only say it with genuine concern. That doesn't offend me. If they're serving pie, so much the better.
I dunno, bfitz.:D What kinda pie? ....any ice cream?:o