View Full Version : WM 20 degree Ultralight sleeping bag
I am doing some comparisons and would like your opinions--are there any other bags comparable in quality and weight to the Western Mountaineer 20 degree ultralight and, if so, what should l look at? I am not so concerned about price, but if there is something of comparable quality, I'd like to know what it would be.
Thanks! gum
troglobil
11-16-2006, 14:57
one of the closest in comparison would be the marmot helium +15. Main difference is full vs. 3/4 zip and draft collar. WM is also cut much tighter. Becuase of zipper, I opted for the WM. So far I have only been able to test it one night.
The only other bags that compare to WM in terms of quality, IMHO, are Feathered Friends bags. Marmot makes a darn decent bag too, but WM and FF are just a cut above the rest.
I have the WM Ultralite, and it's a hell of a bag. I used it on my PCT attempt, and it handled temps down in the low teens with no problem. I personally don't think there's a better full 3 season bag out there right now.
I also have the WM Apache SMF, which is a great bag, slightly warmer, and a little heavier. I've used a TNF Blue Kazoo, which was OK, but not nearly as good as the others. I haven't used Feathered Friends bags, but I've seen them up close and have been very impressed, and the people I know who do use them love them. They're also expensive though.
Anyway, long answer to a short question. Sorry. For quality, WM and FF.
headchange4u
11-16-2006, 16:04
I also have a WM Apache SMF. You really can't go wrong with a WM bag. I have tried a Ultralight before and they are a tight bag around the shoulders. If that bothers you you might look at something with more girth.
Something alse to consider, WM bags are generally considered very conservative with temp ratings. A lot of people say a 20degree WM will do 0degrees easy. I have been in my bag in the low 20's and I was hot enough to keep the bag partially unzipped most of the night.
If money is no object, go for the Ultralite. I used it from Springer to NY and again from Glencliff to Katahdin. It's seen maybe a hundred additional nights after my thru-hike. Damn good investment. Definately a cut above Marmot. Plus you can get the bags re-stuffed with 4 oz of down, which I plan to do.
bigcranky
11-16-2006, 21:46
Feathered Friends makes very, very good bags, which you can get with various custom options on fill, length, shell material, etc.
That said, we own three WM bags -- my Megalite and Antelope, and Dragonfly's Ultralite. Great bags.
As mentioned by others, the only company that can really compete with WM is Feathered Friends. I've spent a ton of nights in the Ultralight and the Highlite. I think I wrote some reviews of these bags somewhere on this site. But, briefly, I've used the UL for weekend, weeklong, and month long trips, ranging from mountaineering to long distance hiking to nights at a lake lounging with beer and friends. I wouldn't describe the cut as tight, but there isn't any wasted space for your body to heat. I'm 6'4" with broad shoulders and have plenty of room. Now, when I get into my Marmot Arroyo, it feels like I'm swimming in fabric.
The UL is a legit 20 degree bag. The Marmot is rated to 30, but isn't really there. More like upper 30s. If price isn't a problem, buy anything from WM or FF and be happy. If I had to choose a bag for a long distance hike, like the PCT or CDT or early starting on the AT, I'd take the UL for sure.
I've been using the 20-degree Feathered Friends Swallow for years. Light, well made, absolutely reliable, available in a range of outer fabrics. FF also does custom fills and will talk to you about other custom desires/needs. WM seems to be the favorite manufacturer of American long-distance hikers, and they make superb bags, but if you're seriously looking for a serious bag, you also need to look at FF.
A few things. Most people who have used Marmot, WM, and feathered friends are happy with them. Many people who like a piece of gear try to convert everyone else to use the same one to validate their own purchase even if another brand is as good or better (we all do this to a certain extent, some more then others). Temperature ratings between different manufacturers mean different things since they are measured differently.
Feathered Friends: I'm sure these are high quality bags as they are hand made to order taking a few weeks to receive them. You can customize these bags however you like. They are also the most expensive of the 3. They also weight slightly more, though you have control of features that add/subtract weight. If you have money to burn and want a high quality bag that you can customize, this is your bag.
Western Mountaineering: They have 2 of the lightest down sleeping bags out there. Though they are able to do this by sizing them narrower and using a slightly higher temperature rating then Marmot's equilvanet bags. The advantage of the narrower sizing is there is less extra space for your body to heat up. The disadvantage is the more adventurous sleeper will not like the tight confined space. Many people praise this brand so you know you are safe picking it. It also will be the cheapest of the 3 as they go on sale quite often if you look long enough. If you go to sleep and don't move much, this is the bag for you.
Marmot: They are sized larger then WM bags. Marmot bags are Shoulder:62", Hip:58", Footbox:40" while WM bags are S:59", H:51",
F:38". This allows you to toss and turn in the bag easier though you have more air space you have to heat up. However, for years they had a reputation of being generous in their tempature rating. They are rated for a slightly colder temperature. They weight 1-2oz more the closest WM bag. They also are more expensive then WM since they don't go on sale as often. If WM bags seem too confining, or you like turning during the night without the bag rotating with you, this is the bag for you.
That said, I will now spit out my own propaganda. I like Marmot bags. I own 3 of them. Their lightest weight bags are the Helium (+15F, 1lb 13oz), Hydrogen (+30F, 1lb 5oz), and Atom(+40F, 16oz). I own the Hydrogen, Atom and a 1997 model of the Pinnacle (15F, 2lb 7oz). In 1997, Marmot had the lightest down bags available so I bought one and was hooked on them since. After a decade of use, my Pinnacle is still looking as good as new. What I hate the most about it is it's TOO warm. I have always been too hot in it even with the temperature being in the teens. But since it is in excellent condition and because I rarely need a bag for use when the temperature drops into the teens, I have no reason to replace it with a lighter bag (yes, I realize that my pinnacle isn't the lightest bag anymore). My Atom(40F) I bought for summer but I have been caught in cold weather were the temperature dropped to 28F more then once and was plenty warm by adding a Cocoon Silk Liner (4.3oz), and some clothing. I bought my Hydrogen(30F) for my hopefully 2007 thru-hike of the PCT. It has been a great bag for low 30's so far. Considering it is the same as my Atom except for more fill, I am confident that I can push it down to at least 20F if not furthur using my liner and clothing. I don't understand that comment earlier about it not working below 35F as that has not been my experience. I will be testing how low I can push it next week on a week long backpacking trip though I'll have my MontBell Inner Down Jacket along just in case.
Just remember, opinions are like @$$holes, everyone has one. The
only one that matters is the one you have to live with on the trail. It doesn't matter if a sleeping bag works for 10 other people if you end up not enjoying it. See if you can try out a few bags in a store and how they feel closed up around you.
bigcranky
11-17-2006, 23:09
Miner's post is a good one, but let me point out that Western Mountaineering does offer several bags in a wider cut, for the broad-shouldered among us.
Lots of info already, but I'll add a bit. I am 5'2" and about 130#. I owned the Ultralight and really liked it EXCEPT that I did find it too tight as I tend to toss around quite a bit. I gave it away and got myself the Megalite (short) which is really nice and roomy for me. I don't use it in cold weather so the extra space to heat up is not really an issue. Also, since I am a cold sleeper, I got a free 2oz overfill in my Megalite through Hermit Hut website. Of course this does make it weight 2 oz more. Hermit Hut offers their WM bags with the overfill at the same price as the regular fill. I have a WM Puma also which I use for colder weather. My hiking partner uses a Marmot Helium and is very happy with that. She had the zipper replaced with a 2 way so she could vent her legs. I prefer the WM because I like the full zipper. Enjoy your shopping. You really can't go wrong with any of the bags discussed so far as long as the size and temperature rating are suited to you. Good luck.
norfamericana
11-18-2006, 04:11
what would you suggest outside of down --
One small addition, the dimensions for the WM and Marmot bags I gave are for their lightest down bags and may not apply to their heavier (in weight) bags since those are the ones that most people are interested in.
This website has a good comparison chart of different brands of sleeping bags, their temp ratings, sizing, and weight.
http://www.backpacking.net/gearbag-chart.html (http://www.backpacking.net/gearbag-chart.html)
Marmot: They are sized larger then WM bags. Marmot bags are Shoulder:62", Hip:58", Footbox:40" while WM bags are S:59", H:51",I have a WM 30* Megalite, shoulder = 65", and am looking at a 15* Badger, shoulder width 67".
halftime
11-18-2006, 19:52
Link below is to a great comparison chart that give you all the specs of most major brands. This helped me in my search last summer. I need the larger girth but wanted light weight as well. I spent much time reseearching and settled on two choices. The WM Badger was probobly the best because of its size, rating and girth but I settled on a Kelty Lightyear 25 because it was lighter and 1/2 the cost. Also, I felt like I did not need the 15 degree rating of the Badger. I am happy so far with the Lightyear 25 (only limited use). That said, I think the WM Ultralight that you are considering would be a great bag (assuming you are comfortable with the fit). Hope the Chart helps you decide. Good luck.
http://www.backpacking.net/gearbag-chart.html
halftime
11-18-2006, 19:57
Link below is to a great comparison chart that give you all the specs of most major brands. This helped me in my search last summer. I need the larger girth but wanted light weight as well. I spent much time reseearching and settled on two choices. The WM Badger was probobly the best because of its size, rating and girth but I settled on a Kelty Lightyear 25 because it was lighter and 1/2 the cost. Also, I felt like I did not need the 15 degree rating of the Badger. I am happy so far with the Lightyear 25 (only limited use). That said, I think the WM Ultralight that you are considering would be a great bag (assuming you are comfortable with the fit). Hope the Chart helps you decide. Good luck.
http://www.backpacking.net/gearbag-chart.html
This chart is the same as the one Miner posted. Did not see before my post.
rswanson
11-20-2006, 20:33
First let me say that I have no experience with Feathered Friend's bags so I can't speak about them. I currently use the Western Mountaineering Ultralight. I don't have a problem with the girth and I'm 6', 200 lbs. If you like a bit more room look at the Alpinlight Super which is the same bag with a bit more girth (64" at the shoulder as compared to 59" for the Ultralight) and just 5 ounces heavier. One exceptional feature of the Ultralight that I don't think has been mentioned yet is the full draft collar that wraps around your neck and completely seals off the interior. This is a big help in keeping the bag warm as it just about totally eliminates any heat loss due to 'bellows' effect. The zippers on the WM bags are also almost snag-free. And, certainly not least...that Made In The USA label.
Marmot bags are great but for the same price, I don't really see why you'd choose one. Marmot's hood designs on their top of the line bags are more comfortable than the WM bags, due to a nice face muff that cradles you face. Other than that, WM edges out Marmot's bags by just a little bit in every area.
I also own a North Face Blue Kazoo which is accurately temp rated at 20 degrees. It's been a great value for the money (I think I paid around $125 for it) and has been bomber.
Other companies to consider are Valandre and Montbell. Valandre has a pedigree similar to Western Mountaineering but doesn't get the face time due to the fact that they're a European company so its much rarer to find their products on the shelves of your local outfitter. Montbell seems to be the 'comfort king' due to their patented stretch baffle construction. They sure are comfortable bags but you'll end up carrying a bit more weight for the convenience. Still, I would check 'em out before you drop $350 on a new bag.
Oh, and someone should probably suggest you take a look at quilts, too. Try Jacks R Better and Nunatak to start.
I spent much time reseearching and settled on two choices. The WM Badger was probobly the best because of its size, rating and girth but I settled on a Kelty Lightyear 25 because it was lighter and 1/2 the cost. and keeps you half as warm. Have you used it yet at 25*? Better try it in your backyard before heading into the woods when the temps will be in the 20's.
It was buying a lightyear that sent me to WM. I don't kow where Kelty gets its ratings, but I can tell you that the 30* WM (Megalite) will keep me far warmer than the 25* Lightyear.
The lightyear is still a good bag, and I still use it above 35-40*, but not when the temps get anywhere near freezing, because that's freezing is what I'd be doing if I used it in cold weather. The 30* WM I was comfy in down to about 25*. One night in the teens I was very cold in it, so the limit (for me) is about 20*. I sleep pretty warm, but not warm enough to be comfortable at the "temp rating" of the Lightyear.
Frosty's point is an important one.
For those of you comparing brands, using price, weight, fill power, space, etc. in general it's important to realize that high end brands are high end for a reason. WM and Feathered Friends are probably the only bags that will give accurate temp ratings. WM is typically conservative with their numbers, and can usually be used 5 degrees below the suggested ratings.
It's been my experience with other brands such as Marmot, NorthFace, Kelty and Lafuma that the temp ratings are not at all accurate, and that most likely you'll stay alive at the temps they suggest, not warm.
River Runner
11-21-2006, 02:19
I am 5'2" and about 130#. I owned the Ultralight and really liked it EXCEPT that I did find it too tight as I tend to toss around quite a bit.
I'm 5'5, 165 lb, and toss and turn a lot too. My Ultralite just turns with me when I do. It fits quite well other than being a bit long (I have the regular length), although when I first got it, not being used to a more form fitting bag, it did seem constrictive. After sleeping in it a few cold nights, I don't feel that way anymore - it was just a matter of getting used to it I guess. The one drawback I see with the snug fit is that I do have to unzip it if I want to add clothing layers, which I could (barely) do in my old bag without unzipping it.
I'm very happy with my WM Ultralight. I can't speak for the other bags since I haven't tried them.
I have been trying to post this on the Women's Forum. Perhaps the server is down.
I am looking for an ultra lite sleeping bag that is 1 lb. 13 oz.or less. The Women's Marmot Helium +15 is approximately six inches shorter than the man's, yet it is the same weight and price ($359). Since I am 5'1", I really want to keep the weight down. Any suggestions for a sleeping bag that would fit me? Also, if I do purchase the Women's Marmot Helium +15, could you recommend a store with better prices? What kind of sleeping pads do you recommend as well? Price?
Susan
rswanson
11-21-2006, 18:31
Susan,
Western Mountaineering (http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm)makes some of their bags in a 5'6" length, including the Ultralight Super (http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Sleeping%20Bags&cat=ExtremeLite%20Series&viewpost=2&ContentId=17). I'd look there before Marmot. My Ultralight is a regular length and weighs in exactly at the manufacturer's claim of 1lb. 10 oz. I'm sure the short length would be an ounce or two lighter. It's a bit cheaper as well (around $310 vs. $330 for the reg.). My wife uses my bag; she's 5'8" and fits fine in my regular, so I'm thinking you'd have a similar fit in the 5'6" length. I bought mine at backcountrygear.com (http://backcountrygear.com)because of their thoroughness over the phone and great stock of items. I probably could've shaved 10% off if I had waited for a sale at moosejaw.com (http://moosejaw.com)or somewhere similar but I liked backcountrygear's service.
I believe that Feathered Friends (http://www.featheredfriends.com/Default.aspx)makes some bags in an even shorter length but I'm not familiar with their products but by all accounts they're right up there with Western Mountaineering.
As for pads, I like Pacific Outdoor Equipment's (http://www.pacoutdoor.com/2006/index.cfm) stuff. We use the Max Compact (http://www.pacoutdoor.com/2006/index.cfm?action=product&productID=5&groupID=1&familyID=1)for warmer temps or Max Thermo (http://www.pacoutdoor.com/2006/index.cfm?action=product&productID=6&groupID=1&familyID=1)for colder temps. They're extra comfortable at 2.5 inches thick and not too heavy either. Sierra Trading Post (http://www.sierratradingpost.com/d/320_Sleeping-Pads.html)has them on sale now and they pop up on Steep and Cheap sometimes. Even at normal prices POE's pads are a great deal. If you need something warmer (good below 20 degrees F) then you probably want a closed cell mat or a self-inflating mat like a Thermarest Prolite (http://www.thermarest.com/product_selection.aspx?cID=1)but then your getting up in price and weight.
I appreciate everyone's input--I actually own a WM Ultralite, but was shopping for a bag for my husband's xmas present (hope he is not reading into this thread....). He had been using my old Kelty Light Year, and was visibily colder on our last cold weather hike--I wanted to know whether or not there was another bag I should be looking at, but it appears as though the WM is as good as other considerations in a similar price range. I ordered one today for $315...a good deal :)
Thanks everyone. Gum
halftime
11-21-2006, 20:13
and keeps you half as warm. Have you used it yet at 25*? Better try it in your backyard before heading into the woods when the temps will be in the 20's.
Thanks for pointing this out Frosty: Currently I only do overnight hiking/camping in the summer (mostly at low altitudes) so the LY25 fits my particular needs pretty well. It is not, however suitable for someone needing a dependable cold weather bag. I was remis for not making this point clear in my original post.
I agree that WM bags are superior than most others. If/when my situation changes, the WM Badger would be the bag I would choose.
RSwanson
Thanks for the information on sleeping bags and pads. What is the deal with Marmot? They are certainly expensive products but the quality seems quite good. How would you rate them compared with WM? Btw, I was born in Baltimore and lived in the Balto-Wash. area for 36 years.
Susan
rswanson
11-22-2006, 12:07
RSwanson
Btw, I was born in Baltimore and lived in the Balto-Wash. area for 36 years.
Susan
Hey! Always good to hear from a Charm City Escapee! I'm actually just northwest of the city, closer to Westminster.
Marmot makes good bags. Their temp ratings are fairly accurate (maybe optomistic by 5 degrees or so) and the quality is good. In some instances in the past Marmot has 'fudged' weights on their gear. Not sure if they are still guilty of this or not, but its been my experience that your likely to see more variation from listed weights with their bags than, say, Western Mountaineering or Montbell (another good bag manufacturer). If you're going to spend in the $300+ range, I can't see why one would choose Marmot over WM, aside from brand loyalty or being able to actually test-drive a Marmot bag (whereas WM bags are hard to find on shelves). My observations and research have lead me to the conclusion that WM bags are superior, if just a little bit, in almost every regard. The one area that Marmot possibly edges WM is in hood design. The down-filled face muff on Marmot's bags is very comfortable.
I can also say this: I can't recall ever hearing about a Western Mounatineering customer who was unhappy with their purchase.
As for Marmot's other products (tents, clothing, etc.), they have such a huge array that its difficult to rate the company as a whole. There are winners and losers in their line. They have a few real hits with the backpacking community like the Marmot Precip jacket but most of their stuff seems on the heavy side when compared to many alternatives.
GitRdone
02-25-2007, 16:46
It was buying a lightyear that sent me to WM. I don't kow where Kelty gets its ratings, but I can tell you that the 30* WM (Megalite) will keep me far warmer than the 25* Lightyear. :sun
Frosty, I believe you just helped me make my decision on purchasing the Megalite. I am also considering ordering the 2 oz overfill which drops the rating on the bag down to 25 degrees. I have really looked at the WM Ultra Lite Super and I just don't like a tight fit. I am 6' 3" and 210 lbs... I need some room to move around... :)
Bud