View Full Version : Arguing about the GSMNP rules.
Jeanette
11-29-2006, 13:52
I'm thinking of doing a week-long hike, starting around the north end of GSMNP and going north. I want to do it in the spring but am trying to avoid going when the shelters and tent sites are too busy with thru-hikers. Thoughts? Is it a good idea to try for April, or will it be busy even then? Maybe I should just wait until like the beginning of June?
Lone Wolf
11-29-2006, 13:53
April will be mobbed. Late May would be good.
The Weasel
11-29-2006, 14:55
Jeannette: If you're starting inside the Park, you'll have to get permits for your shelter stays in the park, and tenting away from shelters isn't permitted, I don't think, except for thrus. So unless you get an application in and actually get shelter reservatiosn, you're going to be out of luck almost anytime. (Why do I recall that non-thrus MUST have shelter reservations at all times? I think that's the case.) Shelter reservations go VERY fast along the AT.
Rule is different if you start from outside the park and enter on the AT, and are willing to state you began hiking 50 miles (I think) from the boundary.
You might consider seeing the Smoky Mountains from the trail outside the park. They are still the "Smokies" but just not in the Park.
The Weasel
LOL... Lookie here we have The Weasel *assuming* GSMNP regs... Where's the citation? :p
Jeanette, If you want to hike in the park in April you'd be best off hiking some other trails instead of the AT. It won't be so busy and there are lots of other trails that are as equally scenic, if not more so. if you want to hike north of the park, it won't seem as crowded as you can sleep any where you please from Davenport Gap to Hot Springs and beyond.
The Weasel
11-29-2006, 15:30
LOL... Lookie here we have The Weasel *assuming* GSMNP regs... Where's the citation? :p
Jeanette, If you want to hike in the park in April you'd be best off hiking some other trails instead of the AT. It won't be so busy and there are lots of other trails that are as equally scenic, if not more so. if you want to hike north of the park, it won't seem as crowded as you can sleep any where you please from Davenport Gap to Hot Springs and beyond.
You want one, smartass, go look it up yourself. And when I make assumptions or call on my memory without verification, I say so, rather than blow smoke out my dorsal orifice. Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure I"m right. If I'm not, tell the lady how I'm wrong instead of flaming someone else.
The nice lady asked a question about hiking the AT. If she can't find what I referred to, she'll probably say so and someone with a fresher memory will tell her the precise info or, if necessary, I'll do it for her. Because she was nice.
The Weasel
Appalachian Tater
11-29-2006, 15:41
According to the regs, camping is only allowed at designated campsites: http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-regs.htm .
If I remember correctly, tenting was allowed within a certain distance of shelters if they were full.
The Weasel
11-29-2006, 15:49
According to the regs, camping is only allowed at designated campsites: http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-regs.htm .
If I remember correctly, tenting was allowed within a certain distance of shelters if they were full.
Tater, my recollection is that only Thru Hikers (i.e. anyone who started more than 50 miles outside the Park) is allowed to tent. Others are prohibited. That's what it was in '00, at least. I think it's still the case.
The Weasel
Lone Wolf
11-29-2006, 15:50
I see nothing in the rules and regs about "thru-hikers" being exempt from reserving shelter space if they start 50 miles before and end 50 miles after.
Lone Wolf
11-29-2006, 15:55
I see nothing in the rules and regs about "thru-hikers" being exempt from reserving shelter space if they start 50 miles before and end 50 miles after.
Or 3 bunks being set aside for "thru-hikers" at shelters.
Appalachian Tater
11-29-2006, 15:58
Yeah, there's information left out of the online regs. I know thruhikers did NOT have to reserve space, and I remember waiting for the shelters to fill up so I could tent legally within X feet of the shelter. I don't remember how they defined "thru-hiker" or whether the tenting at full shelters rule applied only to thru-hikers.
There's a number to call with questions on the website.....
well, great! so, when would the "ideal" time be for a section hiker to do the gsmnp as a stand-alone section hike? sorry to add to your discussion...
Lone Wolf
11-29-2006, 16:03
The rules, regs, and laws in the park are vague. Always have been.
Alligator
11-29-2006, 16:07
Jeanette, you sound like you are going to be on the AT. However, if you camp in the park off the AT some sites don't require permits, and sometimes these are close to the AT. Check the park map. I have an old .pdf map of the park, the sites are color coded on mine.
I agree with Sly's last sentence that being able to camp wherever outside of the park will make it seem a lot less crowded. You might still want to wait though as LW suggests
If you carry extra water capacity you can often find a nice quiet dry site away from any crowds.
Here (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/upload/trails2005.pdf) is the map.
Alligator
11-29-2006, 16:08
well, great! so, when would the "ideal" time be for a section hiker to do the gsmnp as a stand-alone section hike? sorry to add to your discussion...It was pretty empty when I sectioned the park in September.
D'Artagnan
11-29-2006, 16:13
What's the penalty if you violate the rules? Dollar-wise, I mean. Is it worth the risk? How often are people really checked?
You want one, smartass, go look it up yourself. And when I make assumptions or call on my memory without verification, I say so, rather than blow smoke out my dorsal orifice. Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure I"m right. If I'm not, tell the lady how I'm wrong instead of flaming someone else.
What's good for the goose...
Actually you're recollection is pretty much right on.
As far as GSMNP regs go a "thru-hiker" is someone that starts or finishes 50 miles from the park, although is also generally regarded that those that start or finish in Hot Springs or at the NOC are also considered thru-hikers. Of course, it's easy enough to get around this but we wont go into it here.
The numbers may have changed but it's been, 3 spots will been left open (not reserved) in shelters on the AT for thru-hikers. If the shelter is full at that point, camping is permited. If you get a permit and show up on the wrong day or with the wrong number in your party the permit is null and void.
Lone Wolf
11-29-2006, 16:17
What's good for the goose...
Actually you're recollection is pretty much right on.
As far as GSMNP regs go a "thru-hiker" is someone that starts or finishes 50 miles from the park, although is also generally regarded that those that start or finish in Hot Springs or at the NOC are also considered thru-hikers. Of course, it's easy enough to get around this but we wont go into it here.
The numbers may have changed but it's been, 3 spots will been left open (not reserved) in shelters on the AT for thru-hikers. If the shelter is full at that point, camping is permited. If you get a permit and show up on the wrong day or with the wrong number in your party the permit is null and void.
WHERE in writing does it say this?
WHERE in writing does it say this?
Good question. On the permit? In the guidebooks?
Lone Wolf
11-29-2006, 16:20
What's the penalty if you violate the rules? Dollar-wise, I mean. Is it worth the risk? How often are people really checked?
The 50 mile fore and aft rule is a joke. You can go either end of the park to the self registration kiosk, get a permit, and just write thru-hiker on it and start walking.
Appalachian Tater
11-29-2006, 16:20
According to the information on the website, penalty for violating the rules is up to $5K fine and 6 mos. in jail. Last spring I saw two Ridge Runners and no Rangers on the trail in the Smokies. The Ridge Runners had permits to give to people who had failed to get them, to keep them out of trouble.
I think an ex-thru hiker could fake being a thru-hiker but section hikers are fairly easy to spot for Rangers.
The 50 mile fore and aft rule is a joke. You can go either end of the park to the self registration kiosk, get a permit, and just write thru-hiker on it and start walking.
Secret exposed! :eek:
Appalachian Tater
11-29-2006, 16:23
Why not just follow the rules? Make reservations if you're planning on section hiking. Wait until early May for less crowded conditions and better weather. If something legitimate happens and you don't make it to the shelter you're supposed to, I can't imagine Rangers harassing you about it. All of the ones I met were friendly and reasonable and patient.
Lone Wolf
11-29-2006, 16:25
According to the information on the website, penalty for violating the rules is up to $5K fine and 6 mos. in jail. Last spring I saw two Ridge Runners and no Rangers on the trail in the Smokies. The Ridge Runners had permits to give to people who had failed to get them, to keep them out of trouble.
I think an ex-thru hiker could fake being a thru-hiker but section hikers are fairly easy to spot for Rangers.
Doesn't matter. Rangers would have to prove it. Lots of hikers who start at Springer and go thru the park are still fat, carrying heavy packs and have new looking clothing.
Lone Wolf
11-29-2006, 16:26
LW, what do you think.
About what?
Appalachian Tater
11-29-2006, 16:28
Lone Wolf, you mean you can't tell the difference between a fat thru-hiker in new clothing carrying a heavy pack and a section-hiker by the time they get to the Smokies? LAWL.
Sure, they would have to prove it. Do they ever bother? I don't know, but if they do, I'm sure they know how.
About what?
About what I posted.
It's well known those with reservations take priority over self registering thru-hikers and there's a number of spots left open. I think the regs are such that if someone wants to only traverse the park they need a reservation with an itinerary, rather than a "thru-hiker permit".
Lone Wolf
11-29-2006, 16:34
The rules shouldn't favor "thru-hikers". I've been at shelters where they were full of thru-hikers in the rain and folks with permits show up and are forced to tent cuz the uppity thru-hikers wouldn't give up the space. That sucks.
Appalachian Tater
11-29-2006, 16:40
I don't think the rules favor thru-hikers by leaving 3 spots open. It's just recognition that thru-hikers can't plan 30 days ahead where they'll be with as much certainty as a section hiker can.
If I were a section hiker with a reservation and the shelter in the Smokies were full of thru-hikers, I'd ask them to get out. The first-come, first-served rule doesn't apply there. Bad attitude on the part of thru-hikers is a whole 'nother issue.
Lone Wolf
11-29-2006, 16:42
And there's a WHOLE lotta bad attitude with them. I like hangin' with section hikers a whole lot better.
thru-hikers wouldn't give up the space. That sucks.
I couldn't agree more. Thru-hiker "entitlement" really irks me.
The Weasel
11-29-2006, 17:15
What's the penalty if you violate the rules? Dollar-wise, I mean. Is it worth the risk? How often are people really checked?
The rules are there for a very good reason. The biggest penalty is that you are hurting others who honor those rules.
The Weasel
The Weasel
11-29-2006, 17:17
The rules shouldn't favor "thru-hikers". I've been at shelters where they were full of thru-hikers in the rain and folks with permits show up and are forced to tent cuz the uppity thru-hikers wouldn't give up the space. That sucks.
There is also a 'rule' of honor, at least, that 'there is always room in the shelter in a storm'. That's not just Bob Dylan 'talking.
The Weasel
The rules shouldn't favor "thru-hikers". I've been at shelters where they were full of thru-hikers in the rain and folks with permits show up and are forced to tent cuz the uppity thru-hikers wouldn't give up the space. That sucks.
The rules don't favor thru-hikers over those with reserved permits. If the thru-hikers didn't move they were wrong.
Jeanette
11-29-2006, 17:52
Wow! Looks like I stirred things up a bit here. :)
I hiked through GSMNP last spring, and in talking to other hikers on the trail, I noticed that "lore" certainly abounded about thru-hikers being exempt from certain rules! Didn't really matter at the time because the shelters weren't full anyway, except for on my last night (a Friday) when a group of about 10 weekend-warrior types crammed into a shelter with a handful of us section hikers. It was unpleasant.:rolleyes:
So anyway! To answer an earlier question, I'm section-hiking the AT, bit by bit, and I will be starting from a little ways outside of the park, probably at Standing Bear Farm, and heading north. Now that I've read some of your thoughts, I'm thinking maybe I'll plan something for June instead of earlier in the spring.
D'Artagnan
11-29-2006, 17:54
The rules are there for a very good reason. The biggest penalty is that you are hurting others who honor those rules.
The Weasel
I should have qualified my query by stating the reason I was curious was because I prefer to hammock when sectioning. IMHO, shelters are rodent-and-insect-feces-riddled shacks whose appearance and presense detract from the outdoor experience. In any event, my question was answered by Appalachian Tater in Post No. 20 but thanks for taking the time to post the moral admonition. I will give it the consideration it deserves.
springerfever
11-29-2006, 19:41
Jeanette,
Hike the Smokies when YOU want to. The secret is just make sure to make your reservations 30 days out, and I mean, call Backcountry Reservations at 0801 30 days out. If you are hiking with others make sure to obtain the reservations all at the same time and remember you have lots of options regarding shelters. South to North (preferred) or North to South. Icewater Spring or Mt. LeConte, plenty of options. Have your ducks in a row when you call and I bet you'll get your spots. If not there is some GREAT hiking just south and north of the Smokies....Good Luck ,and don't miss Mt. Cammerer just south of Davenport. My favorite view in the Smokies !!
Jack Tarlin
11-29-2006, 20:20
I've seen lots of talk and speculation here in re. to what is officially required and what isn't.
Here's the official website for the Park:
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-reg.htm
I suggest that if you've any questions about permits, tenting, or anything else, you check this out or give them a call.
Have a great trip!!
And Jeannette, shelters North of Davenport Gap will still be crowded thru April and May, but not to worry. There are plenty of great places to camp, and once you're out of the Park, you're pretty free to camp wherever you wish along the Trail in North Carolina or Tennessee. So don't take for granted there will be space in a shelter; bring a tent, tarp, or hammock so you don't have to be dependent on shelters, and you'll be fine.
Lone Wolf
11-29-2006, 20:34
I've seen lots of talk and speculation here in re. to what is officially required and what isn't.
Here's the official website for the Park:
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-reg.htm
I suggest that if you've any questions about permits, tenting, or anything else, you check this out or give them a call.
Have a great trip!!
And Jeannette, shelters North of Davenport Gap will still be crowded thru April and May, but not to worry. There are plenty of great places to camp, and once you're out of the Park, you're pretty free to camp wherever you wish along the Trail in North Carolina or Tennessee. So don't take for granted there will be space in a shelter; bring a tent, tarp, or hammock so you don't have to be dependent on shelters, and you'll be fine.
Your link doesn't work but it's probably the same as post 6. Nothing is in writing about the thru-hiking thing. I've never seen an official NPS document about the issue.
Jeanette, I see you posted this question in the "straight forward" forum, so I will try to answer the question you actually asked. Since most NOBO thru-hikers start from Springer in March and early April, and since it takes most of them three to four weeks to get to the stretch of trail you are interested in (the north edge of GSMNP, where you would be starting north, is about 235 miles from Springer), you can expect the trail to be most infested with thru-hikers from the last week of March through early May. If it's general congestion you're worried about, and not just thru-hiker specific infestation, it's also a good idea to avoid the most popular locations like Max Patch, Hot Springs, Erwin and the Roan Highlands (if you get that far north) on weekends.
And Jeanette, while there are lots of WhiteBlaze members with more first-hand knowledge of this area than I have, I couldn't resist answering you so I could use the phrase, "thru-hiker infestation."
Blissful
11-29-2006, 20:34
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-camping.htm
The other link didn't work for me. :)
Blissful
11-29-2006, 20:36
Whoops
Thanks, LW
Lone Wolf
11-29-2006, 20:41
still nothing in title 36 code of fed. regs.
Jeanette, you sound like you are going to be on the AT. However, if you camp in the park off the AT some sites don't require permits, and sometimes these are close to the AT. Check the park map. I have an old .pdf map of the park, the sites are color coded on mine.
I agree with Sly's last sentence that being able to camp wherever outside of the park will make it seem a lot less crowded. You might still want to wait though as LW suggests
If you carry extra water capacity you can often find a nice quiet dry site away from any crowds.
Here (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/upload/trails2005.pdf) is the map.At the risk of sounding like a "I heard that...." person, overnight camping at any designated campsite in GSMNP requires a permit. There are some sites that are "rationed" in regards to # of available spots and some are "unrationed" in that there is plenty of room to accomodate all campers.
springerfever
11-29-2006, 21:44
BTW........you can request maps of the park from Backcountry Reservations. Looks identical to the link above, but its nice to have a copy with you when hiking in the Smokies. Shows all campsites/shelters/distances/road accesses and regulations.At the visitor centers they charge $1.25 for them, but a few years ago they sent me a few for free. Worth asking for .Looking at the map will really get you excited for some exceptional hiking....
If you have any extra time available, the side-trip over to LeConte via the Boulevard Trail off the AT is spectacular and an easy grade considering the surrounding terrain. Shucks, I get the fever just thinking about the Smokies !!
If you have any extra time available, the side-trip over to LeConte via the Boulevard Trail off the AT is spectacular and an easy grade considering the surrounding terrain. Shucks, I get the fever just thinking about the Smokies !!I highly recommend this side trip off the AT. The shelter on top of LaConte is the highest campsite along the route of the AT, and the Boulevard Trail is one of my favorites.:sun
Alligator
11-29-2006, 23:09
At the risk of sounding like a "I heard that...." person, overnight camping at any designated campsite in GSMNP requires a permit. There are some sites that are "rationed" in regards to # of available spots and some are "unrationed" in that there is plenty of room to accomodate all campers.Are you a lawyer or back country ranger:mad: .
I do have that wrong Ed, thanks for pointing that out[Go*##% &*#*&# ;) ]. Rereading the website, you do need a permit, you are absolutely right, but not a reservation for the unrationed sites. [Do I have that right or are you going to rub it in some more:p .]
Thanks again. [I hate you I hate you I hate you:datz ]
Nightwalker
11-30-2006, 00:10
You want one, smartass, go look it up yourself.
I'm thinking that I know which way the AT/Law thread has wandered. Oh well. T'was inevitable...
Nightwalker
11-30-2006, 00:19
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-regs.htm
Backcountry regs. Didn't someone ask?
Appalachian Tater
11-30-2006, 00:26
The next person who posts that same link again has to donate $20 to WhiteBlaze.
Skidsteer
11-30-2006, 00:39
The next person who posts that same link again has to donate $20 to WhiteBlaze.
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-regs.htm
I donated $40.00 to WB this morning.
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-regs.htm
Of course, I get two shirts (http://www.whiteblaze.net/index.php?page=shirts) out of the deal. :D
SGT Rock
11-30-2006, 04:56
You know, there is a lot of squalking here about the GSMNP and the rules, shelters, thru-hikers, etc. But it looks like none of that had anything to do with this person's question. This is what I read:
I'm thinking of doing a week-long hike, starting around the north end of GSMNP and going north. I want to do it in the spring but am trying to avoid going when the shelters and tent sites are too busy with thru-hikers. Thoughts? Is it a good idea to try for April, or will it be busy even then? Maybe I should just wait until like the beginning of June?
Now unless I am totally screwed up on my recollection of the GSMNP and it's location in reference to the trail - if you start at the north end of the park (Davenport Gap) and head north you will not go into the park at all. You will not need a GSMNP permit because the park is south of that point. What you will end up doing is going past Max Patch, Hot Springs, etc.
You guys could turn a question about tents into an argument about the color of the sky and who was the bigger crook - Nixon or Taft.
Geez...
Alligator
11-30-2006, 09:40
Around the north end of the park potentially places her inside the park.
Taft.
SGT Rock
11-30-2006, 10:02
You forgot the color of the sky.
Alligator
11-30-2006, 10:09
You forgot the color of the sky.Blue--no yellow Ahhhhh
SGT Rock
11-30-2006, 10:15
Here it is black, brown, and gray, with streaks of blue.
Alligator
11-30-2006, 10:19
What is your quest?
Two Speed
11-30-2006, 10:19
Here it is black, brown, and gray, with streaks of blue.Can you provide a citation proving that? Well?
halftime
11-30-2006, 11:36
Here it is black, brown, and gray, with streaks of blue.
What is your quest?
Color of the sky over Bagdad? :eek:
Guess everything is relative.:cool:
Nixon:(
JoeHiker
11-30-2006, 13:06
I have never through-hiked the AT (not yet) and I have never been through GSMNP but I have a question related to this.
How many miles does the AT go through GSMNP? How long (roughly) would it take a very fit person to hike through it, assuming he was hiking relatively quickly (but not running or "speed-hiking"). I tried looking at that map and I can see where the AT enters the park but not the path it takes through it. Maybe I'm missing it. And even if I could, I don't know how hard the terrain is.
It's just that, when I eventually do hike the whole AT, I think I would just as soon get the heck out of a place with such strict regs. I use a hammock, I hate shelters, and I don't want to have to break the rules anymore than is absolutely necessary.
Lone Wolf
11-30-2006, 13:20
71.6 miles through the park.
The AT in the Smokies is roughly 75 miles and fairly strenuous. I'd guess a very fit person would have no problem to do it in 4 days or so.
Nightwalker
11-30-2006, 14:26
The AT in the Smokies is roughly 75 miles and fairly strenuous. I'd guess a very fit person would have no problem to do it in 4 days or so.
But it would take me or Sly 12-16.
Hey, Sly! I forgot to get my pot and stove back from you. :)
Hey, Sly! I forgot to get my pot and stove back from you. :)
Yeah I know. You need to send me your address.
Chaco Taco
11-30-2006, 14:48
I have been having this same discussion on Trailplace about shelters and Tent camping in GSMNP. Is it an absolute rule that I must sleep in the shelter. I know about the reservation and all, but I just much rather sleep in my tent, especially if I am hauling it on my back in the snow. :-?
Lone Wolf
11-30-2006, 14:53
I have been having this same discussion on Trailplace about shelters and Tent camping in GSMNP. Is it an absolute rule that I must sleep in the shelter. I know about the reservation and all, but I just much rather sleep in my tent, especially if I am hauling it on my back in the snow. :-?
Supposedly if you're "thru-hiking" and the shelter is full you may camp outside of it. The past few times I hiked thru the park I tented no matter what. Rules be damned.
Gray Blazer
11-30-2006, 15:09
Taft......
Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-30-2006, 15:30
I've always just gone off into the woods, out of sight of the trail and camped. I've never had a problem with rangers or anyone else. While I know the rules say stay in or in sight of shelters only, wild horses couldn't get me to stay in the nasty, mouse infested shelters in the Smokies or tent on the heavily toileted area around them. Must be the rebellious old hippie in me.
Tipi Walter
11-30-2006, 16:06
I've always just gone off into the woods, out of sight of the trail and camped. I've never had a problem with rangers or anyone else. While I know the rules say stay in or in sight of shelters only, wild horses couldn't get me to stay in the nasty, mouse infested shelters in the Smokies or tent on the heavily toileted area around them. Must be the rebellious old hippie in me.
Yeah, with over 500,000 acres there has to be millions of tentsites in the Park. And with over 900 miles of trail there has to be good access to these off-trail(far off trail)campsites. But my rant comes from the duplicity of authority and regulations. Why are backpackers regulated so much while the car drivers have near total unregulated access to the Park? Why are cars even allowed in the most air polluted park in the country? Why are horses allowed in the Park (to dig up the trails) while dogs are not?
Why is Gatlinburg so intent on never allowing the Park to become a bonafide Wilderness Area? (And thereby closing the roads in the Park).
GBlaylock
11-30-2006, 16:18
Jeanette,
Back to your origional question...I am planning on section hiking Davenport Gap to Damascus starting in late May/early June. My thought process is that most of the NOBO'ers will have passed thru by then and the flowers and rhododendrons will be in bloom.
TIDE-HSV
12-01-2006, 02:11
in this chaos. First, choosing backcountry campsites off the AT in the East end of the park is more of a theoretical possibility than a reality. In the 35+ years I've hiked the park, those campsites have been closed much more frequently than they've been open because of bear problems. A month ago, they were closed. Someone asked what happened if you violate the rules willfully. I can only answer as to what I've seen. The ranger revokes your permit and watches you pack up to depart the park. And, you are written a citation for a federal violation to appear before the local federal magistrate. Do they depart from this with mercy in stressful circumstances? Probably. I haven't seen it, but I've heard of it...
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-01-2006, 07:31
.... Why are backpackers regulated so much while the car drivers have near total unregulated access to the Park? Why are cars even allowed in the most air polluted park in the country? Why are horses allowed in the Park (to dig up the trails) while dogs are not?
Why is Gatlinburg so intent on never allowing the Park to become a bonafide Wilderness Area? (And thereby closing the roads in the Park).Gatlinburg and its sister, Pigeon Forge, do not want the roads closed because having auto access to the GSMNP draws tourists with $$.
As to why horses are allowed, darned if I can figure this one out except that some of the GSMNP campgrounds have their own stable operations - maybe they have to allow horses to keep those profitable operations?
As for backcountry regulations - regulations are like shelter mice - you get a couple and before long there are hundreds.... I think the reg's in all the NPS need to be reviewed and over-hauled with an eye toward simplicity and elmination of unnecessary reg's.
As to why horses are allowed, darned if I can figure this one out except that some of the GSMNP campgrounds have their own stable operations - maybe they have to allow horses to keep those profitable operations?
It has to do with the park charter back in the days when it was established - controversially I might add.
SGT Rock
12-01-2006, 08:06
As I understand it from one of my local friends who had family from Cades Cover (the Olivers) that one of the deals made during the land purchase was to allow horse traffic into some of the areas of the Smokies so some of the old time families could still get into old family land. May not be true, but after reading "Strangers in High Places" it sort of makes sense. And once you allow something, it is often hard to stop it.
I highly recommend the book "Strangers in High Places" because it gives the history of that area. As to declaring the area Wilderness - this would have prevented any new road construction. G-Burg and Pigeon Forge may have opposed it last time it came up as a proposal for the Smokies - but according to the book, some of the biggest, most influential people to blocking wilderness protection for the GSMNP was actually the park service who wanted the ability to build a couple of more loop roads in the park including the option of finishing the road to no-where.
Gray Blazer
12-01-2006, 08:38
As I understand it from one of my local friends who had family from Cades Cover (the Olivers) that one of the deals made during the land purchase was to allow horse traffic into some of the areas of the Smokies so some of the old time families could still get into old family land. May not be true, but after reading "Strangers in High Places" it sort of makes sense. And once you allow something, it is often hard to stop it.
I highly recommend the book "Strangers in High Places" because it gives the history of that area. As to declaring the area Wilderness - this would have prevented any new road construction. G-Burg and Pigeon Forge may have opposed it last time it came up as a proposal for the Smokies - but according to the book, some of the biggest, most influential people to blocking wilderness protection for the GSMNP was actually the park service who wanted the ability to build a couple of more loop roads in the park including the option of finishing the road to no-where.Good morning Sarge, good post as usual. It makes sense about the old families and access and I say why shouldn't they have access. Today it's very popular to have a home in the mountains. It's amazing to think of the people who gave up their mountain homes and farms and towns so we today could have this wilderness to walk (or whatever) through? There is plenty of backwood country trails in the GSMP (I was out 3 days the last time and we ran into nobody, in July!) I was watching a little of Coal Miner's Daughter last night and seeing all the oldtime Appalachian towns made me think about this a little. I read something in Backpacker yesterday about Mt. Sterling once having 1000 residents.
Strangers In High Places was good reading. I was out on Thunder Road last summer and it made me recall that part where the Shiner helped the sherriff out of the ditch so they could resume the chase. Good reading.
Lone Wolf
12-01-2006, 08:41
Good morning Sarge, good post as usual. It makes sense about the old families and access and I say why shouldn't they have access. Today it's very popular to have a home in the mountains. It's amazing to think of the people who gave up their mountain homes and farms and towns so we today could have this wilderness to walk (or whatever) through? There is plenty of backwood country trails in the GSMP (I was out 3 days the last time and we ran into nobody, in July!) I was watching a little of Coal Miner's Daughter last night and seeing all the oldtime Appalachian towns made me think about this a little. I read something in Backpacker yesterday about Mt. Sterling once having 1000 residents.
Strangers In High Places was good reading. I was out on Thunder Road last summer and it made me recall that part where the Shiner helped the sherriff out of the ditch so they could resume the chase. Good reading.
Thru hikers don't enjoy the park. They rush through it. Never exploring side trails. Most never go back. Same with the whole AT. Hurry up and get to Katahdin. Go on with life.
Gray Blazer
12-01-2006, 08:45
Thru hikers don't enjoy the park. They rush through it. Never exploring side trails. Most never go back. Same with the whole AT. Hurry up and get to Katahdin. Go on with life. To me, personnally, you have just named the biggest disadvantage to a thru-hike of the AT.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-01-2006, 09:20
As for families and access - I know several of the Oliver, Tipton and Gregory families - and the male dino is a decendant of the Myers. All of those who lived there have now passed on (the last one within the passed year). I think they could safely revoke the 'horse clause' and allow any family desiring access to a backcounrty homesite or cemetery a special permit to use horses. Few families would use this system, ut it would be there if needed.
SGT Rock
12-01-2006, 09:26
Well, often when you open up a rule like they did to allow horse traffic, it will live past the original intents. Simply going in and closing that rule is probably not important to anyone else but some hikers. My guess is there are a lot of businesses and locals that want to keep horse access to where it already exists. My neighbor across the street has three horses and has told me about his trips in there. I am sure it would require hearings, lawyers, and hassle for the Park Service to try and change the rules. Remember all the crap from the Snowmobilers in Yellowstone?
And, as I understand it from one of my local friends who has helped on AT trail maintenance in the park, the local chapter uses horses to help get tools and in close to some of the sections of the AT to help with the maintenance. So the local ATC chapter (Smoky Mountain Hiking Club) probably ain't very interested in changing the rules either.
To me, personnally, you have just named the biggest disadvantage to a thru-hike of the AT.It doesn't have to be that way. I imagine the herd mentality has something to do with it. For some it probably boils down to dreading the thought of adding even 1/2 mile to the miles needed to finish the hike. Thats a shame. A curious blue blazer could add quite a bit of miles to a 2000+ AT hike and see a whole lot more.:sun
Lone Wolf
12-01-2006, 09:44
I AM a curious blue-blazer.
Alligator
12-01-2006, 09:51
Horse recreationists do have a right to have trails. Horseback riding is a traditional activity. I recognize that is hard on trails and it is not an activity that I think mixes well with foot trails, but these folks do have a right to recreate.
When you come to a fork in the trail, take it! ;)
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-01-2006, 09:53
Alligator makes a couple of good points - perhaps horses could be barred from the AT (as it is a national trail) but allowed on other trails in the GSMNP
halftime
12-01-2006, 10:14
Alligator makes a couple of good points - perhaps horses could be barred from the AT (as it is a national trail) but allowed on other trails in the GSMNP
Or at least practice LNT. How deep should a potty hole be for a horse?
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-01-2006, 10:37
Or at least practice LNT. How deep should a potty hole be for a horse?Big enough to bury the horse :p
Lone Wolf
12-02-2006, 16:36
I've always just gone off into the woods, out of sight of the trail and camped. I've never had a problem with rangers or anyone else. While I know the rules say stay in or in sight of shelters only, wild horses couldn't get me to stay in the nasty, mouse infested shelters in the Smokies or tent on the heavily toileted area around them. Must be the rebellious old hippie in me.
I see you over on Trailplace stirrin' up the poop with Wingfoot on this subject.:)
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-02-2006, 17:01
:D Forgot to take my hormones this morning. Somebody better come protect the male dino :D. I seriously think you should be able to camp in the woods everywhere except for a few environmental fragile areas. Sorry, but the entirety of the Smokies is not environmentally fragile.
Lone Wolf
12-02-2006, 17:03
I pretty much do camp where I want on the AT.
Alligator makes a couple of good points - perhaps horses could be barred from the AT (as it is a national trail) but allowed on other trails in the GSMNP
I think it's because horses were allowed on that particular section of trail and that it preceding the AT, that they have rights. You want to see horse ****, try one of the western trails! And it's for thousands of miles. Cow ****? Go west! AT hikers have it so easy! :rolleyes:
I'd like to see horses on the trails in diapers, like you do in cities. :p
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-02-2006, 17:31
I've changed many thousands of diapers in my time, but I'll be {bleep} if I'm gonna change a horse's diaper.
I've changed many thousands of diapers in my time, but I'll be {bleep} if I'm gonna change a horse's diaper.
I wouldn't expect you to, unless you owned a horse. The idea has merit. If hikers are expected to clean up after their dogs, why not horse people? Walk a few hundred miles through horse **** and you'll understand.
I should add, some places allow commercial packers with clients on horseback and mule teams and such. They're generally not limited to quotas in certain areas like hikers and have free rein. They're not only making money on public property they're spoiling the area. Not ****ting all over the place or containing it, is the least they can do
Lone Wolf
12-02-2006, 17:57
I see you over on Trailplace stirrin' up the poop with Wingfoot on this subject.:)
Your post was deleted, Dino.:)
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-02-2006, 18:08
Imagine that :D. I imagine I'm banned as well and I couldn't care less (not banned, but he changed my password so I don't have access). When I browsed around that site, I couldn't decide if it or PBP was more pathetic. I appreciate this site for the amount of tolerance it shows and that tolerance has lead to it being the most comprehensive source of information from long-distance hikers. We’re a rowdy bunch and any site that plans to be comprehensive has to be able to accommodate our unruly streaks.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-02-2006, 19:01
So LW, can you describe the sorts of campsites you use in the Smokies? Next to water? Behind a hill? Mountain tops or Gaps?
Lone Wolf
12-02-2006, 19:15
Within 1/2 mile of water.
shades of blue
12-02-2006, 19:44
Do you still have to have reservations for shelters/campsites in the Winter?
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-02-2006, 20:18
Yes - reservations are required year-round.
What is your quest?
Perhaps the most important question of all! I once heard that to get the right answers, one must ask the right questions.;)
Of course, once the right questions are asked, it helps if those attempting to answer them address the questions.;);)
I enjoyed the exchange that occurred around the point Alligator asked his question. Just wanted ya'll to know that.:D
I'm on an off-board quest this weekend myself.
Thru hikers don't enjoy the park. They rush through it. Never exploring side trails. Most never go back. Same with the whole AT. Hurry up and get to Katahdin. Go on with life.
Maybe instead of promoting an adventure of a lifetime, we should be promoting an adventure that lasts a lifetime.;)