View Full Version : Maps in the Backcountry
Jack Tarlin
12-06-2006, 20:50
Awhile back, there were several threads here on WB dealing with the importance---or non-importance---of maps.
Quite a few very experienced hikers sugested that on the A.T. they aren't necessary.
Some other folks stated that maps are ALWAYS a good idea in the backcountry.
People might want to check this out:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/06/missing.family/index.html
It's a really sad story, and it provides a very grim picture of what can happen to you in the backwoods if you don't have a really good idea of where you are and where you're going.
Sometimes a cell phone is NOT enough and the cavalry DOESN'T get there in time.
And while this was in Oregon in winter conditions, believe me, it happens in the East, too, and sometimes in mid-summer.
Boat Drinks
12-06-2006, 22:12
I was following that story in the news for the last few days Jack, it is very sad. However, I couldn't help but be impressed by the mother's resourcefulness during this ordeal.
LostInSpace
12-06-2006, 22:27
A PLB might have precluded the tragedy.
Blissful
12-06-2006, 22:48
When I heard about the clothes being tossed - like the pants, I figured this guy was a gonner. SO sad. Makes you well aware though the dangers of hypothermia and to know the warning signs. Having seen it myself in my son in the Whites, it makes me triple vigilant. And glad we had maps too to get off the ridgeline.
TJ aka Teej
12-06-2006, 22:54
http://www.cnet.com/
Click on the photo of c-net editor James Kim and his daughter for the story.
I've taken the habit of always traveling with my pack equipped with a compass and maps. The little space it takes up in my car are worth it.
Tragic story, but according to reports the guy DID have a map. I've mentioned it before, sometimes when on a trail or road it's best just to hunker down or stay on the trail or road instead of bushwhacking off trail. You're more likely to be found.
Mr. Clean
12-07-2006, 05:06
I can't imagine not having a map to see what is around you and what is to come.
Hammerhead
12-07-2006, 09:15
I've been following this story too and it is very heartbreaking. The family was very resourceful and I'm sure it was a tough decision to decide to go and look for help. Obviously in any type of survival situation, deciding to stay or going for help is a critical decision. What I'm getting at is that I believe in being prepared. I normally keep my pack in my truck and at very least I always have the 10 Essentials (plus more).
This actually inspired me to make up a few auto kits as Christmas gifts for my parents to put in their vehicles. I bought some small ammo cans, filled them with some basics, and hopefully we'll have a little extra peace of mind.
Hammerhead, that's a good idea and a great gift.
On the 4am repeat of the O'Reilly Factor he had on someone from National Geographic Adventure that echoed my statement. In a situation like this it's best to hunker down rather than rescuers looking all over the countryside. If anything he should have followed the road back (or stayed on the trail) They did well by burning the tires assuming they did so during the day, but could have also used the vehicles mirrors as a siginal device.
Hammerhead
12-07-2006, 17:07
Just read where his autopsy confirmed that James Kim, 35, died of exposure and hypothermia in the mountains of Southern Oregon.
You can leave some words of encouragement for the family on their website: http://jamesandkati.com/
berninbush
12-07-2006, 17:22
In a situation like this it's best to hunker down rather than rescuers looking all over the countryside. If anything he should have followed the road back (or stayed on the trail) They did well by burning the tires assuming they did so during the day, but could have also used the vehicles mirrors as a siginal device.
My understanding was that they waited several days and no one had found them yet; at that point, he probably felt he had no other choice but to go look for help. They were so far off course that nobody even knew where to look for them, and they couldn't know that someone would trace the cell phone signal.
And I think he meant to follow the road back to the turning if possible. He told his wife he'd come back in a few hours if he couldn't find help within that time. I can only guess that he became confused in the snow and lost the road, or thought he saw something off-trail that drew him away...
So very sad.
rswanson
12-07-2006, 17:45
That's indeed a sad, sad story. I feel for those that survive him.
As for maps on the A/T, almost anyone with experience on the trail will tell you they're mostly useful in plotting the details & timetable of your day's hike. Where water sources are, where roads and towns are, how far the shelter is, etc. If you don't get off the trail, there really isn't much possibility of getting lost. Sure, you might end up going in the wrong direction for a few miles, but you'll figure that out soon enough!
As for other trips into the backcountry, I think anyone without a map and compass is foolhardy, unless you're on a known, well-marked route with no chance of weather (esp. whiteouts) affecting your hike. Of course, if you don't know how to use a map and compass they're really good for squat. Take an orienterring course or, at the very least, read a few good books on the topic and practice those skills until they're second nature because it's too late after you've already become a statistic!
Getting back to the article, and at risk of not being familiar with the details, I'd say Mr. Kim's judgement could've been seriously impaired by his undoubtedly hypothermic state. His route choice doesn't seem to make much sense. It is easy to get disorientated in the outdoors, especially if you're even mildly hypothermic.
Hammerhead
12-07-2006, 17:50
Getting back to the article, and at risk of not being familiar with the details, I'd say Mr. Kim's judgement could've been seriously impaired by his undoubtedly hypothermic state. His route choice doesn't seem to make much sense. It is easy to get disorientated in the outdoors, especially if you're even mildly hypothermic.
An article I read from my local news station said they believe he was trying to mark his location by leaving his clothes behind but I think it was his hypothermic state that caused him to start shedding his clothes. At any rate, it's still a very sad story.
He wasn't in the backcountry, and he had a map. Sometimes the story is going to end sadly no matter what.
Very sad for the family. I wish them the best.
rswanson
12-07-2006, 17:59
Hmmm just realized who started this thread. Jack, you've spent, oh, a couple of days here and there on the A/T...do you still feel it neccessary to carry a map for safety's sake and have you ever gotten lost on the AT?
rswanson
12-07-2006, 18:03
An article I read from my local news station said they believe he was trying to mark his location by leaving his clothes behind but I think it was his hypothermic state that caused him to start shedding his clothes. At any rate, it's still a very sad story.
Yeah I thought that, too. I've never been that hypothermic (!) but I've sure heard of similar things happening to others. Maybe the searchers came to that conclusion because the items were conspicuously placed. If he was marking his trail with pieces of a map that was probably the case. Maybe he was trying to mark his trail for himself so he could find his way back.
Jack Tarlin
12-07-2006, 18:30
Um, actually Sly and Ender, the map he has was an Oregon road map, which doesn't help much when you're dis-oriented in the woods.
Woods as in backcountry woods, Ender. The area was actually quite remote. Ever BEEN in Southern Oregon in the wintertime, Ender? If you don't think this qualifies as backcountry, you might wanna visit Oregon for another opinion.
And yes rswanson, I always carry maps, even if I'm doing a stretch of trail I know intimately.
And yes, I have gotten myself lost, tho happily not in recent years.
I would never enter the woods anywhere without the best current map of the area that I could find.
berninbush
12-07-2006, 18:31
He wasn't in the backcountry, and he had a map. Sometimes the story is going to end sadly no matter what.
Very sad for the family. I wish them the best.
Yeah. I think it's easy to hear about something like this, and to think, "Oh, that couldn't happen to me because I've done xyz to prepare." Being prepared is definitely a good idea and can save your life, but the truth is there are no absolute guarantees. Illness, hypothermia, weather, unforseen emergencies... lots of things can mess with the best-laid plans, even for an experienced outdoor person.
Certainly the Appalachian Trail is very well-marked and not "easy" to get lost on, but there are always circumstances where you could unintentionally get off the trail. And if you have an emergency on the trail, it's helpful to know whether that blue blaze beside you will get you to civilization quicker than sticking on the AT. I think a map makes you safe-ER, at any rate.
Jack, even if he had topo maps, leaving the car and then the road, taking a short cut, in the wilderness under such conditions wasn't the wisest thing to do. My guess, and we're all mostly guess here, is once he left the road on a steep embankment, saw the conditions and the time, tried to back track towards the vehicle.
Jack, if you were in the same position, with topos, what would you have done?
I know of two people on the PCT recently that tried to get out of the weather, both had maps, both had experience, both were equipped, and both died.
Jack Tarlin
12-07-2006, 19:02
Sly:
I don't know what I'd have done if I were him.
If I had to make the decision to leave my family and go for help, I'd have probably stayed on the main road, for any number of reasons:
1. I had a road map so I'd at least know where I was heading.
2. There'd be less chance of getting lost on the road.
3. On the road, there'd at least be a chance that I'd run into another vehicle,
plow truck, etc.
I really doubt I'd bushwhack into the woods for help, especially if all I had was a road map of the entire state. In that Oregon is the size of Great Britain, I don't think the map he had was much help to him).
In fact, I'm sure I WOULDN'T have bushwhacked into the woods unless I was POSITIVE there was a physical feature....road, river, etc., that I could follow to civilization.
So the answer to your question Sly, is I don't know what I WOULD have done, but I can be pretty sure what I WOULDN'T have done.
But it's impossible to put yourself in this guy's boots. He did what he had to do in order to try and save his family. Unfortunately, it wasn't enough, at least not for himself.
rswanson
12-07-2006, 19:26
I don't think its been mentioned on this thread but the best practice is to always leave your itinerary with someone you can trust and don't deviate from it. Common sense, maybe, but worth mentioning. That's worth more than maps or equipment.
I agree with Jack about the area they were stranded in. Just the fact that the road wasn't plowed and no plows came by in over a week should tell you something about the remoteness of their location.
Um, actually Sly and Ender, the map he has was an Oregon road map, which doesn't help much when you're dis-oriented in the woods.
Woods as in backcountry woods, Ender. The area was actually quite remote. Ever BEEN in Southern Oregon in the wintertime, Ender? If you don't think this qualifies as backcountry, you might wanna visit Oregon for another opinion.
What's your beef with me? Yes I have actually, mr smartass. And I wouldn't call wandering off the road in a hypothermia induced haze as being in the backcountry, either. I'd call it having severe hypothermia, in which case no matter what map you had, it still wouldn't help. Face it Jack, this is not the same as having or not having maps on the AT.
This guy died, because he was trying to save his family. It's more than a little tacky that you're using this as pro-map ammo, especially as it's so very different from hiking on the AT with or without maps. Face it, even if he had USGS topo maps, the guy would most likely be toast. And thats what I was trying to say. Not to not carry maps, but that in this case it wouldn't have done him any good no matter what map he had.
And for pete's sake, chill the hell out. Not everyone wants to fight with you.
I haven't read the entire post or story. I do wonder why they didn't turn around drive back the way they came in?
I believe that their car got stuck in the snow, and they couldn't move it. It really is a shame. I really feel for the wife and kids, but it's also good that they were rescued.
Jack Tarlin
12-07-2006, 20:01
Ender:
1. No beef.
2. I'm just questioning your comment that he wasn't in the backcountry.
Of course he was. All news accounts described this area as extremely
remote, so remote in fact, that it wasn't patrolled or plowed. If this
ain't the backcountry, please tell us what is.
3. Likewise you mentioned he had a map. All I did was mention that for
his purposes, the map he had was useless.
4. And as for your statement that he wandered off the road in a hypothermia
induced haze, there's actually no indication he was impaired at the time
he left the road.
5. You may well be right....a topo might not have made any difference. But
then again, maybe he could have used it to determine more certainly
where he was and where he was going. Maybe he could have used it
to help locate a useful landmark or feature, like a river, etc., that just
might have helped him out. Maybe the map would've shown him that
if he travelled a bit down the road instead of entering the woods near his
car, he might have had better luck......another road, a river, etc. In
short we don't know, but just maybe, a real map might have made a
difference.
6. And lastly, bushwhacking is inherently risky, and is even more dangerous
in the wintertime. Leaving a road or marked Trail in the wintertime to
bushwhack without a good map is incredibly dangerous, as this tragedy
indicates. And I don't think it's "tacky" to point this out. I'm not saying
a good top map would've made all the difference here.....but then again,
who knows?
a real map might have made a difference.
Yeah, it may have helped him decide to stay put, or atleast not get off the road.
Hammerhead
12-07-2006, 22:33
No matter what he had or didn't have as far as a map, he did have little children and his wife and they didn't have much baby food and I'm sure that fact greatly influenced his decision. Hind sight is 20/20, and it's easy for us to sit here and say "I would've done this", or "I would've done that.", but this man did what he felt was right.
TJ aka Teej
12-08-2006, 00:11
Right after the family was located, before they found the Dad, I saw a TV station report that they took that particular backcountry road because the dash-board navigation system in their car recommended it as the shortest route home. Does anyone have one of these gadgets? I assume it's 'dumb' and wouldn't be able to factor in weather, closed roads, seasons, etc?
Hammerhead
12-08-2006, 09:51
Right after the family was located, before they found the Dad, I saw a TV station report that they took that particular backcountry road because the dash-board navigation system in their car recommended it as the shortest route home. Does anyone have one of these gadgets? I assume it's 'dumb' and wouldn't be able to factor in weather, closed roads, seasons, etc?
I consider car navigation systems to be about as reliable as say mapquest. On a trip a couple of years ago to Shenandoah I printed out directions from mapquest and we wound up on some fire road in the middle of nowhere. I also have MS Mappoint and that has the ability to download highway construction updates but that's about it.
I know this has been said, but wouldn't you walk on the road you came in on no matter what? He must have been delusional from hypothermia and hunger to wander off the road. I feel for his family.
A sad story indeed, but not the first and it will not be the last. It sounds like the desire to use a shortcut via backroads and lack of basic emergency supplies in the vehicle (extra clothing for the weather and food items) contributed to this. I was a cop in Alaska for twenty years and dozens of times I had the occassion to come across stranded motorists who despite bitter cold, wind, snow dressed like they were taking a ride to the beach. The reality is that you can break down and get stuck on a regular road and be there for hours until help can arrive. Years ago myself and a friend had to hump six miles in -20F cold due to vehicle problems and this was within the limits of a city of 272,000. Now I live in Vt and spend a lot time exploring back roads where over the course of a full day in some areas I have never seen another car. Just as in going out for a dayhike you should carry clothing and provisions to handle an abrupt change in the weather and be able to spend the night in the woods you need to have supplies in your car to be able to walk out or be able to stay with the car. Also keep the gas tank full (a very common oversight), have a light with spare batteries, and have a box of flares in the trunk. Your safety and surviveabilty is essentially your own responsibilty either on the trail or on the road.
Jack Tarlin
12-08-2006, 18:12
The above post is the most informative and useful on this entire thread.
I live in New Hampshire and everything Oruoja says is correct, with particular emphasis on the last line of his post.
vipahman
12-09-2006, 17:09
I think the poor guy made multiple bad decisions.
- First of all he took a "grey road" on a Rand McNally map because he missed the "red road" which was the better option. It was a bad decision because it is winter AND it was snowing.
- Second he continued for about 27 miles, first on Bear camp road and then on the "right fork" (whatever). Apparently some of this portion of the drive was with his door open to see the way because the snow was coming down really hard. He then gets stuck in the snow, get's unstuck, make a U-turn and waits it out because he was low on gas.
- Thirdly he waits it out for 7 days even after the snowstorm ended in 3-4 days. Wasn't that too long. Perhaps an attempt to go looking for help earlier might have been prudent.
- Lastly after 7 days when he decided to go for help, he walked 5 miles on the road and then went left the road with only road maps to guide him. That's plain lunacy.
What do you think? I think this is a very good study in surviving a car breakdown. I'm definitely packing a compass in my car's glove box.
Looks like the last 15 miles of road they were on was supposed to be locked up with a gate.http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/08/missing.family.ap/index.html
TJ aka Teej
12-09-2006, 22:34
Looks like the last 15 miles of road they were on was supposed to be locked up with a gate.http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/08/missing.family.ap/index.html
"Road Kims took was unlocked by vandal, officials say"
Same road where 11 years ago a guy starved to death after being stuck in his vehicle for over two months. They found him in the spring.
And please, just as a caution - it was cold, very cold, and the "bad decisions" displayed by Kim a week into this ordeal were quite probably related to hypothermia.
Jack,
You advise (Post #1), “(T)here were several threads ... dealing with the importance---or non-importance---of maps. ... Quite a few very experienced hikers sugested that on the A.T. they aren't necessary. ... Some other folks stated that maps are ALWAYS a good idea in the backcountry.”
You provide a link to the latest sad tale of someone lost (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/06/mis...ily/index.html) (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/06/mis...ily/index.html%29), and further advise, “... it provides a very grim picture of what can happen to you in the backwoods if you don't have a really good idea of where you are and where you're going.”
The point of your thread, judging from the title (Maps in the Backcountry), suggests a map would have made a difference.
The article to which you referred includes, “(R)escue workers ... found what they believed was a trail of clues ... including ... pieces of an Oregon state map.”
This guys map didn’t help.
Ironically, his map may have given him the impetus to strike out on his own, culminating in his death. He, his family, and anyone else couldn’t have known had he remained near their vehicle longer his chances of survival would probably have been better. Given that waiting nine days, without any help arriving, would lead to the arguably reasonable conclusion that waiting longer was futile. (The “nine days” period seems contested by other parts of the article.)
This courageous guy who struck out on his own helps make a point. If you don’t know your position on the map, when you accept that you’re lost, you need to find some distinctive landmarks around you which you can then pinpoint on your map, and thus determine your location. There are few places on the AT which are sufficiently distinctive that you can locate them on the standard AT maps which are popular with hikers. The maps cover too large an area to readily distinguish mountain features and stream locations. I suspect the “... pieces of ... Oregon state map” probably covered too large an area to be of much use in the backcountry, and didn’t include topographic detail which would be necessary to discern distinguishing surface features.
If someone believes it is irresponsible not to carry a map, they need to also accept the responsibility to recheck their position on the map with some frequency. I’ve met too many hikers who were looking for their position on the wrong map.
I’d fully agree that a map and a compass would be the minimal responsible equipment to include for any bushwhacking. Anticipating the observation that bushwhacking is what you do when taking a short cut, I’ll point out that, except for the northern end, a compass should be able to keep you going nominally east or west until you reach a road.
Another responsibility accompanying carrying maps and compass is to understand how to read a map, and how to use a compass.
I always carry a compass. A compass allows you to repeatedly venture out in different directions from a point, and then return to it, which will in most instances eventually get you “unlost”.
I carry a map of an area when several other trails cross the one I intend to hike, and I’m not under a time constraint, in case it becomes appealing, mid-hike, to change trails.
I would carry maps for hiking in the topography of the AT in the northern states. Since these maps appear to be a closely spaced collection of contour intervals, I would go further, and check whether current maps covering smaller areas are available, preferring them for their greater detail.
P.S. I wrote my post after reading Jack’s first post and the link he provided. Subsequent posts have written most of the above; I’ll leave in my redundancy for continuity.
good idea to carry a roll of highly visable flagging ribbon with you, to mark your trail you can allways find your way back, on your way back remove the ribbons
Jack Tarlin
12-11-2006, 19:07
V--
The guy's map didn't help because it was a ROAD map. From what I've heard, it covered the whole state of Oregon, an area as large as the United Kingdom. I'm nort surprised it doidn't help him.
Finding a specific marker or monument on a road atlas would've been chancy at best, and while he died heading towards what he thought was the nearest town, he was actually MUCH further away from this town than he thought, probably because he mis-judged the distance on his map.
So your speculation that he might have died BECAUSE he had a map is a long stretch. It might have been the WRONG map, and he might have mis-read or mis-judged it, but I don't think he died BECAUSE of it.
But it's not like he can be blamed for not having topos....he and his family were on a driving trip, and weren't planning on ever entering the woods. I drive on back roads in Vermont and new Hampshire a lot, but unless I'm PLANNING to leave the road and enter the woods, it'd be unlikely for me to have the appropriate tops describing what was on either side of the road.
Where he made his error, I think, was in leaving the road in the first place, but again, I'm not judging him. He was a brave, and by all accounts, good man who did what he thought best in extraordinarily difficult circumstances.
We can speculate on what he did, and whether or not specific actions were beneficial or dangerous, but I'm loathe to judge him, and I don't think anyone else should either.
good idea to carry a roll of highly visable flagging ribbon with you, to mark your trail you can allways find your way back, on your way back remove the ribbonsVery good suggestion. I always have quite a bit in my pack.
....But not in my vehicle.:-? Wait, my backpack would be in my vehicle.:cool:
Strnorm,
You advise (Post #38), “good idea to carry a roll of highly visible flagging ribbon with you, to mark your trail you can always find your way back, on your way back remove the ribbons”
That IS a good idea.
I carried a roll of fluorescent survey ribbon but changed to a small roll of faux duct tape (Wally World; choice of Safety Blaze Orange or Emergency Lime Yellow). The tape is brighter, so you need less of it, and takes less time than tying ribbon onto branches. The tape is more versatile (trail marking, bandaging, repairs, etc), but cannot be retrieved for re-use as with survey ribbon.
Marking your trail permits searchers to find you more quickly. But, if this is a consideration, you should remove all the tape you used on fruitless attempts. Alternatively, when you leave your starting point, mark each piece of tape; “1" along your first out-and-back, or circuit, “2" along your second, etc. This will help searchers and, should you unexpectedly encounter your own tape, allow you to better organize your knowledge and understand the area in which you’re lost.
If you record either the time taken (assuming you have a watch) or distance traveled (count your paces) for each compass direction taken, you’re not required to reverse direction and hike back along the same route to return to your starting point. And, returning to your starting point along a different route may reveal important new information you might otherwise miss.
You can calculate the relative positions of your starting point, your current location, and the route you took to get there. You can then recalculate a new straight-line trail back to your starting point. You can use this to circumvent obstacles and then get back on, or at least not lose track of, your original direction of travel.
A soft lead pencil doesn’t weigh much nor take up much space, but it becomes important when you want to record compass headings and times taken or distances covered. If you don’t have paper, you can write on the underside of bark.
Jack,
You advise (Post #39), “The guy's map didn't help because it was a ROAD map.”
I realized that. A point I hoped to make was map scale is important. A topographic map of the state, let alone a road map, isn’t going to provide the information he needed.
You also advise, “So your speculation that he might have died BECAUSE he had a map is a long stretch. It might have been the WRONG map, and he might have mis-read or mis-judged it, but I don't think he died BECAUSE of it.”
My intended point was, if he hadn’t had a map he might never have left his vehicle.
“But it's not like he can be blamed for not having topos....he and his family were on a driving trip, and weren't planning on ever entering the woods.”
I agree. That would be an unrealistic expectation. I have topographic maps of good scale for areas within a state where I hunted. They take up a lot of space, and it was tedious finding the right one while I hunted.
“Where he made his error, I think, was in leaving the road in the first place, but again, I'm not judging him. He was a brave, and by all accounts, good man who did what he thought best in extraordinarily difficult circumstances. ... We can speculate on what he did, and whether or not specific actions were beneficial or dangerous, but I'm loathe to judge him, and I don't think anyone else should either.”
I tried not to be judgmental. We do not have enough information, nor shall we ever learn enough. He was in a very difficult situation and made a tough decision. Had he succeeded, we probably wouldn’t be sufficiently impressed by his efforts. I agree with you wholeheartedly.
hopefulhiker
12-11-2006, 21:54
Stuff I carry in my car...
extra old cellphone deactivated but can still dial 911; phone charger; little air compressor; full size spare; old blue tarp; emergency blanket; poncho liner; fleece coat, gallon of water, gas can, jumper cables, tool box with mechanic tools; parachute cord; knife; chain saw; cooler; lighter; extra batteries; flashlight; cup; spoon; road maps. Of course living in Charlotte is not like Oregon. Also I carry a AAA card, premium 100 mile towing membership.
vipahman
12-12-2006, 20:59
So everyone (me included) is saying that he shouldn't have gone off-roading with a road map. But I'd really like to hear what other options he had. Would it have been possible to walk back on the road (27 miles at least) for help.
Also, I'm trying to understand the snow conditions. Being from the NY/Boston region where you can never find an impassable road even during last year's record breaking blizzard, it's hard to understand why this road was so bad, especially since he drove in.
Jack Tarlin
12-12-2006, 21:02
Who knows?
But the possibility exists that had he stayed put, or stayed on the road, he might have run into help, a plow, whatever. There's certainly a better chance of his being spotted by a rescue chopper had he stayed on the road. The minute he started bushwhacking, without proper gear or knowing exactly where he was going, his chances, unfortunately, went way down.
So everyone (me included) is saying that he shouldn't have gone off-roading with a road map. But I'd really like to hear what other options he had. Would it have been possible to walk back on the road (27 miles at least) for help.
Also, I'm trying to understand the snow conditions. Being from the NY/Boston region where you can never find an impassable road even during last year's record breaking blizzard, it's hard to understand why this road was so bad, especially since he drove in.
Looks like the last 15 miles of road they were on was supposed to be locked up with a gate.http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/08/missing.family.ap/index.htmlIf I read it right, He drove up the road in the dark in a snowstorm, turned back till they were below the snow line because of low fuel, and parked for the night. The snow line dropped to below their altitude overnight, and snowed them in. They were 15 miles uphill from a vandalized gate at that point. (Unknown to them) Tough situation, I hope that I would have chosen to walk down the way I drove up. I can't imagine any way to get help any faster. Anytime I read about a tragic outdoor survival story, I try to learn as much as possible from it. My heart still goes out to the people involved.
vipahman
12-14-2006, 18:07
To me, the moral of the story is:
1. Carry a compass. It helps in figuring out direction even if only on a road map.
2. Fuel up when crossing tough terrain irrespective of how tame civilization has made it. I'm guilty of failing in this area since I usually drive until the yellow light goes on.
Update: Looks like the gate was never locked. Breakdown in the chain of command. Too bad someone thought that claiming vandals broke the lock was a better answer than the truth.
eventidecu
12-14-2006, 21:10
Bottom line is:
1st, he should have stayed on the road BUT by the time (9days later) he went for help he for sure wasn't thinking with a clear head he was starved and desprate for his family. Probly staggering off from the start. Both kids were breast feeding from mom the whole week. He stuck tight for about as long as any of us would have. NINE DAYS before going for it. I heard he had wadded through a waist deep creek which might explain why he took off his pants.
2nd if this is the same road that the guy starved on several years ago, and I thought it was when I heard it, in the truck for over two months, in a fancy truck with a top of the line fully self contained camper. Got stuck like right at or before Thanksgiving and they found him like late Feb. (he was a camper salesman taking one to show a dealer, got snowed in (another shortcut story) and they shut the road down behind him after a snow storm WITHOUT traveling it to make sure no one was on it. Had like a half a tank of d fuel left when they found him.) He had eaten the seats and lost like 100 lbs or so. Bad story and I can't imagin they let this kind of thing happen again. Id like to know if someone came down the "open" road and just shut the "closed" road again after finding it open. Hmm.
It sounds like there should be a new state job for someone driving a snow cat up that road and others once every other day or three when its closed. Myself I would not have waited nine days before going for help. Three or four max.
Western Snow.
I drove a 4WD truck east on an interstate highway through Snoqualmie Pass, Washington. The weather was clear as I started up the mountain. Some time before reaching the top, snow began falling. A mile or two before reaching the top I wondered whether I could make it to the top, and whether the snow would increase too much to get through the mountains. I didn’t dawdle, upon reaching the top, and stopping wasn’t an option.
I had a friend who worked in Spokane, Washington, and had to get to someplace in Montana during a blizzard. He drove a 4WD jeep to a place where he picked up three horses he had rented, and made it the rest of the way on horseback. It took him several days to get there and, once there, he had to wait several days for the snow to stop falling before he could begin his return trip.
Western snow and terrain; not the same as in the east.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-15-2006, 06:53
I'm not comfortable second-guessing the actions of a man who died trying to save his family nine days after becoming stranded.
On the subject of maps in the backcountry: Maps plus a compass have literally saved my life twice and I wouldn't dream of going into the woods without them. The AT is a very well marked trail for the most part, but the unexpected can happen anywhere and anytime. For example, a flood or rockslide could force you to find an alternate route via bushwhacking. A snowstorm could obscure the trail and keep it obscured for many days. An ice storm like the recent one in SNP could force you to go off-trail due to blowdowns. In these situations, maps and a compass are going to be extremely valuable tools.
We discuss being prepared for the worst in regard to clothing, sleeping gear, portable shelter - why shouldn't we be prepared for the worst in navigation as well?
I just got a new set of maps for an upcoming 4 day hike and always had a map on my thruhike.
True, the elevation profile turned out to be the most useful part since it give a true linear representation of the trail. Rather like a strip map. But still it was nice to have the whole neighborhood on paper and more than once it was helpful for navigation.
:eek: And who knows? What if Aliens suddenly abduct the ENTIRE footpath????:eek:
What the Dino just said (#52.) I've done it once or twice (when I've forgotten them) but in general, I always wanna have a map of the trail with me. And I always have one of those itty bitty keychain compasses hooked to my pack, and all of my little day-packs. I think you can get them for $4.95, almost anywhere. Mine's got a tiny thermometer on it also. ;)
OK OK -- I give up! I ordered a full set of maps from the ATC this morning. I didn't want to do it -- I really didn't. Those suckers are heavy. I didn't think I really NEEDED them. But you people are just so darn persuasive and so darn -- LOGICAL. Plus, I imagine if I ever got turned around on the trail, I would hear a collective -- "We told you so" -- coming from the map devotees in the White Blaze community.
rswanson
12-15-2006, 15:28
Does anyone have an example they can cite of a reasonably competent hiker getting lost on the AT during thru-hiking season? I'm sure it has happened but I've never heard of such an occurance. Thanks.
Footslogger
12-15-2006, 15:32
The few times I was zoning and walked off trail the maps wouldn't have helped me.
'Slogger
Does anyone have an example they can cite of a reasonably competent hiker getting lost on the AT during thru-hiking season? I'm sure it has happened but I've never heard of such an occurance. Thanks.
How lost? Even the most competent hikers get turned around every now and then, or head up a blue-blaze for a few minutes before realizing their mistake (etc.) As for seriously, hopelessly lost (ie., needing rescue...) I'd guess not too much.
Footslogger
12-15-2006, 15:40
As for seriously, hopelessly lost (ie., needing rescue...) I'd guess not too much.
=====================================
Yeah ...rescue is a tad extreme !! A couple times I wish there was somebody to commisurate with though as I backtracked.
'Slogger
A couple times I wish there was somebody to commisurate with though as I backtracked
So I came up with this trick. It works so-so. Before a break, I lay my poles along the path, pointing in the direction I need to go when the break is over. Trouble is, sometime's I'll space out... pick up the poles without thinking... and then wonder which way I need to go. :-? I found this happening mostly in the "green tunnels" of southern New England, in flat sections, on cloudy days.
Footslogger
12-15-2006, 16:08
Well ...there are some places in northern VA where trail winds through some wooded areas and goes up and over several little hills. I was hiking alone, head down and thinking about cheeseburgers or something like that and wandered off onto a "path" that looked just like the trail. Ironically it was uphill and muddy, just like most of the trail in 2003, and I just kept on climbing. Must have been a half hour or so and I realized I hadn't seen a blaze lately and stopped to look around. I heard voices off in the distance about 1000 yards to my left and at that moment it hit me like a ton of bricks. My first thought was to bushwhack and take the "shortest line between 2 points" approach but in the end I did an about face and walked all the way back down that blankety-blank hill, at which time I noticed the "V" in the trail where I had gone astray.
Lost a little pride and time that day ...but otherwise I just chalked it up to the "AT Experience" !!
'Slogger
Lost a little pride and time that day ...but otherwise I just chalked it up to the "AT Experience" !!
Stuff like that used to p*ss me off big time. Now, when happens, I grin, shake my fist (at no one in particular) and loudly scream, "You b*stards!" This accomplishes nothing, but it makes me feel better. ;) A bad day in the woods still beats a good day in a cubicle.
Footslogger
12-15-2006, 16:25
[quote=terrapin_too;286172] I grin, shake my fist (at no one in particular) and loudly scream, "You b*stards!"
================================
Oh yeah ...I left that part out. I definitely invoked the gods a few times.
'Slogger
I was "lost" twice on the AT.
The first time I missed a hairpin turn on the trail and ended up in a valley near a farm. Was rather pretty. My mutterings going back up the trail were not! Apparently quite a few thru-hikers did the same thing that year.
The second time was when I left a shelter early in the morning and turned the wrong way. An hour or so later,bumped into two Northbound hikers... DOH!
I am toying with the idea of doing an AT thru-hike 2008.
Will be the 10th anniverssary of my AT thru-hike and have not done an extended hike in the East since 1999 (Long Trail). Or might do Greylock to Katahdin. Will take maps in any case...and hope I do not take that hairpin turn again! :)
vipahman
12-15-2006, 17:25
Western snow and terrain; not the same as in the east.
I agree if it's winter not almost summer.
I visited northern california in mid-may this year and the crossover from I-5 to the coast was snowed out. There was no gate, just a big yellow warning saying the road might be snowed. So I drove 5 miles and sure it was snowed out well beyond the capability of my rental minivan. I spent about an hour just walking out in the snow because it was 80 degrees outside. In all that time, not a single car came that way.
The same applied to the road leading to Lassen Volcano N.P. Closed!
But mid-may! Cmon west coast! Are you living in the dark ages! It's only 3-6000 ft in most of these passes. There's something called a snow plow!
Does anyone have an example they can cite of a reasonably competent hiker getting lost on the AT during thru-hiking season? I'm sure it has happened but I've never heard of such an occurance. Thanks.
I met a few of them this past summer, off the AT on a side trail, and wondering where the AT was, but had no clue because they didn't have maps. I assume that they got off the AT at a poorly marked intersection in a wilderness area.
Jack Tarlin
12-15-2006, 17:41
rswanson:
I can think of very few long-distance hikers who haven't managed to lose the Trail at one time or another. In virtually every case, they manage to get themselves back on track in short order, but not always. And it happens more often than you might think.
And it isn't always a matter of "competency." Sometimes it just happens, even to very competent outdoorspeople.
But the bottom line is that if one does manage to lost the Trail and get lost, or if one does have to leave the established Trail for one reason or another in order to help in an emergency, search for a lost hiker, get out of the woods in a hurry, or whatever.....in these situations, not having a map can create real problems, and in some cases, these situations can be life threatening.
The Old Fhart
12-15-2006, 17:57
This happens all the time in the Whites. A lot of thru hikers don't carry maps or guidebooks and don't take the time to read the signs. Some of the almost 400 miles of trails in the Whites have been there since the early 1800s and the local trail name is always first on the signs. The guidebook warns hikers to read the signs and be careful to take the correct turns but many are under the impression that you can just walk and follow the white blazes. It is easy for a careless hiker to go the wrong way, and many do.
I've meet several while I've been on day hikes in the Whites and most of them are grumbling about blazing or say signs should have "Appalachian Trail" prominently displayed in flashing lights (or something along those lines) and never once blame themselves for their mistake.
rswanson
12-15-2006, 18:00
I met a few of them this past summer, off the AT on a side trail, and wondering where the AT was, but had no clue because they didn't have maps. I assume that they got off the AT at a poorly marked intersection in a wilderness area.
I guess if you miss the blazes, anything is possible. I wouldn't call someone whole wanders around for a day looking for blazes very competent, though. I miss blazes myself but not to the point to where I'm wandering around and there's certainly no way that I'd ever leave an unmarked trail for another unmarked trail. That's when you get lost. And if someone can't keep up with the blazes I really don't think a map and compass is going to help. Just an observation.
And if someone can't keep up with the blazes I really don't think a map and compass is going to help. Just an observation.
Blazing is one of my pet peeves on the A.T. Seems it's often too much or too little. On the one hand, you should be properly concerned if you haven't seen a blaze for, say, the last fifteen minutes. OTOH, there are places on the trail where the blazes just sort of disappear or fade away. You may be on the trail, but without a blaze, you can't be sure of it. I have, on many occasions, been so unsure that I've bactracked -- for many minutes -- just to find that last blaze and reassure myself that I really was on the right trail.
Blazing is one of my pet peeves on the A.T. Seems it's often too much or too little. On the one hand, you should be properly concerned if you haven't seen a blaze for, say, the last fifteen minutes. OTOH, there are places on the trail where the blazes just sort of disappear or fade away. You may be on the trail, but without a blaze, you can't be sure of it. I have, on many occasions, been so unsure that I've bactracked -- for many minutes -- just to find that last blaze and reassure myself that I really was on the right trail.
In general, the AT is over blazed. In many places you can see at least 2 blazes ahead. And it's because of the over blazing that hikers think they don't need maps.
The AT doesn't need more blazes. Just blazes in the right places.
Lost or temporarily misdirected?
Even the best may miss the trail for a short section, need to turn around etc. but I've never heard of a thru-hiker getting lost on the AT to the point of calling in SAR.
saimyoji
12-16-2006, 12:45
In general, the AT is over blazed. In many places you can see at least 2 blazes ahead. And it's because of the over blazing that hikers think they don't need maps.
The AT doesn't need more blazes. Just blazes in the right places.
There is another thread on this topic, but I agree, there are places around here where you can clearly 5-10 blazes at once. Ridiculous.
Jack Tarlin
12-23-2006, 14:13
I can be a really cheap bastard now and then, and this is especially true this time of year.
Well yesterday I sent the ATC a check for $205.00 for a new Guidebook/Map set, and almost immediately I had second thoughts about it.
After all, I probably have more than one complete map set kicking around somewhere as I've bought quite a few sets over the years. Of course, they're not all complete as I tend to lend them out to folks who almost universally don't return them. (Mostly Southbounders, but let's not go there!! :D ) And I like to have current maps; I really don't like using ones that are more than a few years old.
Well, I was thinking about this, and whether or not it was a worthwhile purchase. I started to figure out how often I was actually going to use these things. And this is what I came up with:
Assuming they arrive next week sometime, I'm probably going to look at the maps just about every day between now and mid-March. After that, I assume I'll be looking at them three or four times a day for some months.
Taking a very rough guess that I'm going to be using these things hundreds of times between now and the fall, the $205.00 expense seems like a lot, but the reality is that the maps will end up costing me less than fifty cents a day. And this doesn't even begin to include the Guidebooks, nor does it include how many times I'll be using the maps AFTER my trip next year, or how much use other folks might get out of them. In point of fact, they'll end up costing significantly less than half a buck a day.
To put this in perspective, just this morning I spent more than ten bucks on such things as newspapers, coffee, bottled water, and Powerball tickets. Yesterday, I did pretty much the same, tho I also managed to spend money on a magazine I didn't really need and an overdue library book. In retrospect, considering how much money I spend on frivolous little things, spending less than half a dollar a day on maps and guides for my trip seems like a pretty good deal.
In short, the number one reason that more folks don't carry maps is to save money.
There are LOTS better ways to save a few bucks. In the final analysis, when you consider what you get out of them, maps are a terrific bargain. A couple days before Christmas, I could certainly use an extra 200 bucks in my pocket, but all in all, I'm happy with my purchase.
It might be my best present this year (tho Jester's mom's Apple Cake was pretty fine, too!)
To put this in perspective, just this morning I spent more than ten bucks on such things as newspapers, coffee, bottled water, and Powerball tickets. Yesterday, I did pretty much the same, tho I also managed to spend money on a magazine I didn't really need and an overdue library book. In retrospect, considering how much money I spend on frivolous little things, spending less than half a dollar a day on maps and guides for my trip seems like a pretty good deal.
Jack, not that I disagree with any of this... but they could use a guy with your talents at the next WGBH fund drive. ;)
I used to be one that said, "nah, you don't need the maps", and in many cases you don't (another post, another time), however, I now agree it's best to have them whatever the cost.
That said, one could probably recover some of the cost by offering the guidebooks on Ebay, which are better suited for section hiking.
Jack Tarlin
12-23-2006, 14:30
Funny thing, Sly. I've decided to actually carry the Guidebooks with me on the Trail next year, which I haven't done in almost a decade. The ammount of information in them, such as geography, local history, etc. is really pretty amazing, and they really don't weigh that much.
Funny thing, Sly. I've decided to actually carry the Guidebooks with me on the Trail next year, which I haven't done in almost a decade. The ammount of information in them, such as geography, local history, etc. is really pretty amazing, and they really don't weigh that much.
LOL.... You know I had you're name written but changed it to "one".. remembering you like to carry books! I agree there's lots of useful and interesting info in them.
Does anyone have an example they can cite of a reasonably competent hiker getting lost on the AT during thru-hiking season? I'm sure it has happened but I've never heard of such an occurance. Thanks.
I don't know about "reasonably competent," but I got turned around a couple of times and once spent a half hour escaping when I went too far off the trail to respond to a "call of nature."
Then there are Grandma Gatewood and Bill Bryson's buddy, Katz.
If I remember rightly Bump and Margaret Smith around 1970 quit their first southbound attempt after getting lost. His account of their successful walk a year later told of several lost hikers he met on the trail.
My grandson, 11, and a sister wandered off the trail in 1993, forcing me to go back a mile to find them.
A couple of times I wasn't lost, but a shortage of blazes made me think I might be lost until I checked my maps.
And once on a traverse of the Mahoosucs I followed cream-colored blazes for a mile or so until my maps made it clear that I must of taken a wrong turn.
Weary
A couple of times I wasn't lost, but a shortage of blazes made me think I might be lost until I checked my maps.
Been there, done that ;).