Avoiding toe damage [Archive]

VictoriaM

12-08-2006, 23:18

MOWGLI

12-08-2006, 23:29

NEW BALANCE NORTH JERSEY
459 State Rt 17
HASBROUCK HEIGHTS, NJ 07604
Phone: 201-727-0745

Try some New Balance Trail Runners.

blackbishop351

12-08-2006, 23:31

I've had that happen a couple of times. When you get shoes for your thru, just make sure that you have plenty of room in the toes. This isn't a concern off the trail, but when you do a lot of downhill, your toes can get jammed into the front of the toebox if you don't have enough room there. Also make sure you keep your toenails trimmed really short - not that I suppose that's an issue for you ;)

rafe

12-08-2006, 23:36

The last thing you want is a shoe that's so short that your toes jam into the front. There should always be plenty of room to wiggle your toes. I don't can't comment on your "width" issue, as I have the opposite problem. The only shoes that fit me are 4EE width.

Oh yeah... make sure your toenails are always trimmed to the max before you hike. A couple of the nails on my smaller toes have come off while hiking. No great loss, in fact it was a relief.

When you try on shoes, do so late in the day (when your feet are at max size and most swollen.) And wear the same or similar socks that you plan to hike in.

I 2nd what MOWGLI sez. New Balance shoes work great for me. But of course YMMV.

TJ aka Teej

12-08-2006, 23:54

I have to chime in and second the suggestions re New Balance and toenails!

Frolicking Dinosaurs

12-09-2006, 00:05

Victoria, I have a narrow foot as well. I wore NB trailrunners for years and they are wonderful. Saucony was also great, but they are difficult to find.

Due to some ortho issues, I've had to switch to boots. Hi Tec makes a boot called Sierra V-Lite Fastpack that is designed so that you can lace it to lock your heel in the heel box. This plus adding superfeet footbeds has been my answer.

SalParadise

12-09-2006, 00:05

When you try on shoes, do so late in the day (when your feet are at max size and most swollen.)

That's the first time I've heard of that. Great tip.

with the small-shoe thing, though, I had the opposite problem my first hike. I heard the advice of getting a boot a size bigger than you normally wear, and my feet were swimming in them. Every downhill step my feet slid just a bit forward in them and my blisters got really bad.

next I got shoes instead of boots, and a small size. I could feel my toes hitting the front, but the snugness of the shoe really helped to save my feet. Only lost one toenail.

I wouldn't tell a person to do one or the other, just my .02

warraghiyagey

12-09-2006, 04:01

Seems that toenails have been covered as well as good advice on hiking boot and shoe models.
The single biggest lesson I learned about avoiding blister and toenail issues from 'the Mobsters' this past year is sock liners. They turned my hike around. Once I started using them my blisters healed and most of the physical pain of hiking disappeared.
The theory is that the friction happens between your outer socks and your sock liners instead of between your socks and your skin. My toenails got better too.
With that said, the majority of knowledgable people I've spoken with say that you do need to go a half size larger once you have the socks and liners on. Get them fitted like this. If they are comfortably snug, they'll be too small at the end of each day. Go a half size larger and let the sock liners take the brunt of the punishment.
Peace :)

hammock engineer

12-09-2006, 04:20

I had a lot of problems with this at first. I currently hike in new Balance trail runners. I laced them up as I always did. In doing this I did not use all of the top laces. When I added the top 2 laces (the ones that go back a little on the top) the problem fixed itself. I was able to tie the shoe a little tighter around the top. This held the shoe in place.

Your problem may be like mine was and more a function of how you are tieing your shoe and not the shoe size.

hammock engineer

12-09-2006, 04:22

I forgot to add that you could be New Balances in a .5 size larger to get the length and narrow to take out the width. I also have the 4E shoe size problem.

highway

12-09-2006, 08:49

...

Right now my hiking shoes are TNFs...but if they have a more specfic name I don't know what it is. They are size 10. I usually wear a 9 1/2, and have a very narrow foot.

I'm starting to shop now for shoes for my thru next year. The current shoes are ok, but after a long day of hiking (ten miles or so) my toenails hurt. After the second day of the same sort of milage, they hurt more and appear sightly discolored. I'm worried about the condition of my feet when I have to hike for six months straight.

So, what's the rememdy to this? If I get a longer shoe, I worry that it will also be wider, and will give me blisters. Few shoes are narrow enough for my feet. Can a slightly wider shoe be laced tight enough to keep my foot stable and leave room for my toes, even on downhills?

I know the first thing you'll advise is to go to a good outfitter and get measured and fitted. I would, but I don't think there are any around here (north Jersey). I'm close to Campmor, and an EMS next door, but both have a very small selection of trail runners and hiking shoes, and neither seems to have the time to give customers personal attention.

Any ideas?

There are two pieces of bad news for you. the first is that you have an affliction usually known as "black toe" that affects an unlucky number of runners, marathoners, long distance hikers and, for some, even section hikers doing shorter distances. The second is that you most likely will never determine what causes it for you, in your particular instance. But the good news is that you can adapt to living, hiking, running with it.

Some suggestions:

Since you dont even know what shoes you are wearing you have most likely given little thought to your own foot shape and print (arch type), the biomechanics of it affecting your gait, and, as important as anything, your weight upon your shoe's last. i would suggest you first try some site like Roadrunner Sports to help you match your feet to your footwear:

http://www.roadrunnersports.com/rrs/mensshoes/mensshoesrunning/

and take a look at their 'perfect foot guide' . You can no longer buy your hiking footwear based upon price and/or looks alone-not if you want to hike/run more comfortably

So many hikers seem to suggest getting shoes a size to big and for some it may help. But all to often, though, it was bad advice if the size is to big for your feet, and your foot swims in the shoe, your heel is not securely escounched firmly in a heel cushion/cup and it forces your whole foot to slide forward with each of your steps even on level ground. Forget about the downhill part, which is worse. What happens then is that your toes instinctively pound into the sole of your shoes with each of your steps-on level ground even- in an almost futile attempt to keep your foot from sliding forward. This pounding upon your toes makes some of them(but almost never all-which of yours are affected?)to become first slightly discoloured and begin to hurt like hell, with each step getting worse it seems. You might even cut a trip short because of the onset of the toe pain. Sound familiar? But if you tough it out the toe in a day or two will become black, the pain will goe away and in about a week or so, the blackened toenail will fall off leaving a flexible thin new one underneath. At this point you most likely can continue on with trail-hardened feet. The blacktoe on level ground appears when you go fast or do distance and walking for longer durations; it seldom happens on slow saunters and short distances.

Anyway, once off the trail, your nails become new and hard again and you will start the same cycle all over again on your next hike. If it becomes a serious problem you can go to a podiatrist and have the offending nail removed, since it is probably only one or just a few of them (the big toe is the one which hurts the most and the pain goes down from there with decreasing toe size).

Now, if the biomechanical construction of the footwear matches your feet and the size is to large, so you want to save the shoes, learn to lace correctly. Remove laces on booth shoes half way down, open shoe box to desired width, then wrap laces around themselves a few times then continue lacing upwards normally but tightly. This keeps your toe box open giving ample room for your toes to wiggle in yet keeps the upper part of the foot securely against the heel and your feet from sliding forward. Laces are tight up top but loose below the midpoint. It might work for you. And it might not.

As for seeing a "foot specialist" you have a lot of trial and error ahead of you and a "foot specialist" just may never be as good for you as you can be. That is what i found for my feet. But dont let that stop you from giving one or some a try. At least you will learn the approximate shoe size of each of your feet and whether each of your legs are the same length. As for shoe size, though, it is just a guide as each manufacturer seems to use different lasts for their manufacturing process.

I have discovered that there seems to be two different shoe types. First is the ones with firmer, harder footbeds like the heavier leather boots and to a lesser extent shoes like Montrail, sandals like Chacos. The foot beds of this foot wear are soft yet firm, not very 'cushiony'. Then you have the more cushioned foot beds in shoes like (trail runners) Asics Gel eagles, some New balance trail runners, Nike Air wallowa (discontinued), Teva Wraptor sandals.

I am 6'0", 200-210 pounds with normal arches but have had foot damage in my younger day. I went the whole range looking for comfort and settled on footwear with stability+ (see RoadRunner) and cushion. I have even had the big toenail on right foot surgically removed because I became tired of dealing with its pain. You have to see what works for your feet. I prefer the cushioned comfort of teva wraptor for all my hiking, three season, because it works so well for my feet. Second would be a cushioned trail runner built with stability. But good luck as most manufacturers dont give you the info you need to make an informed choice.

How many nails were affected and on which feet? Strangely enough, hammer-toe does little to affect black toe. Feet are strange and we often look down at two different ones below each of our trunks, yet we try to force them into the same shoe size. Its a tough compromise for some to get the selection right. But for the lucky others it seldom seems to matter what they wear.

highway

12-09-2006, 08:59

Another suggestion:

If you buy it and it doesnt work, learn to give it away. Dont try and force your foot to mold itself into something that gives you pain. If the construction is wrong for you, a different foot bed insole might help but for you it unfortunately may seldom will. But, every foot is different-even your two. Just listen to everyone's advice, learn as much as you can about foot biomechanics and start your selection process. And, good luck in your quest-may it become a short one:)

halftime

12-09-2006, 09:31

May be worth a visit to a Podiatrist. A chronic foot problem could end your hike early. At best make it miserable for the duration. Good Luck
halftime

highway

12-09-2006, 09:49

May be worth a visit to a Podiatrist. A chronic foot problem could end your hike early. At best make it miserable for the duration. Good Luck
halftime

I have not found that many podiatrists helped much. But some-of the 'sports injury' types - appeared a little more knowledgeable of my pain. They always wanted to prescribe a hardened plastic-like 'custom orthotic' which really did little for me at all. But, some swear by them. I swear at them.

Like I said above, too, the pain is not for the duration, in all probability. You deal with it. Maybe remove the worst offending nail and live with the other two or three, as I do. If your footwear is good enough and you can mold the soles of your feet to the top of your footbed you make your own custom orthotic. Think outside the box, to use a paraphrase, and dont get wrapped up in the oft-misused term "ankle support", which is really a misnomer at best as it applies to footwear.

VictoriaM

12-09-2006, 12:46

Thanks for all the information. Highway, you hit the nail on the head (so to speak) with your post and link.

I'll definitely head over to the NB store. When I used to be a runner I always wore NB, and they worked very well for me.

highway

12-09-2006, 12:56

One of the above posters were correct when they mentioned NB sizes. Since they offer such a broad range, its easier to get fitted. I recall the NB 802,3,4 or whatever it is now was quite cushiony but it was not built for a heavier runner so didnt last long for me. It was a good shoe for me, though. Keep with the 'trail runner' variant of whichever you choose for the more aggressive sole and stable ride upon rocks & such. I hope you find what works best for you. Just stay away from any preconceived notions and trust your feelings. Nobody can ever know your feet as well as you do-no matter how many diplomas they hang upon their wall, trying to impress you.

fiddlehead

12-09-2006, 12:56

i normally wear a 10 1/2 shoe. when i hike, i wear a 13. Don't have any problems. I wear trail runners (montrail) ( i used to have the toe pain you are talking about before i learned this trick) another thing to remember is that your feet will get bigger when you have a pack on and spread out width-wise too.
going to a shoe store to get measured is a good way to have problems. unless they hiked the AT for 5 months on end, they don't know what your feet are going to be like 2-3 months into your hike.

Mother's Finest

12-09-2006, 16:24

Find a Certified Pedorthist in your area. go to www.cped.org (http://www.cped.org) for a listing. A certfied pedorthist will put together foot shape, foot function and foot support for you.

For more information, pm me. I am a Cped, but located in Philadelphia.

peace
mf

highway

12-09-2006, 17:00

I am curious what would you prescribe for blacktoe, the questioned affliction in this thread's original post?

Footslogger

12-09-2006, 17:01

Maybe this isn't a gear issue, but I'm sure you all can help me with it, anyway.

Right now my hiking shoes are TNFs. They say "Flight Series" on the inside, but if they have a more specfic name I don't know what it is. They are size 10. I usually wear a 9 1/2, and have a very narrow foot.

I'm starting to shop now for shoes for my thru next year. The current shoes are ok, but after a long day of hiking (ten miles or so) my toenails hurt. After the second day of the same sort of milage, they hurt more and appear sightly discolored. I'm worried about the condition of my feet when I have to hike for six months straight.

So, what's the rememdy to this? If I get a longer shoe, I worry that it will also be wider, and will give me blisters. Few shoes are narrow enough for my feet. Can a slightly wider shoe be laced tight enough to keep my foot stable and leave room for my toes, even on downhills?

I know the first thing you'll advise is to go to a good outfitter and get measured and fitted. I would, but I don't think there are any around here (north Jersey). I'm close to Campmor, and an EMS next door, but both have a very small selection of trail runners and hiking shoes, and neither seems to have the time to give customers personal attention.

Any ideas?
=========================================

Consider replacing the factory insole with a quality footbed. Something like SuperFeet might work for you. The Superfeet is NOT a pad that makes the sole more comfortable. What SuperFeet do is hold your foot in the rear of the shoe and stabilze the heel so that you get a firm heel strike and then a smooth follow through. In doing so, they help keep the foot from sliding forward during your stride.

You can have footwear that is the correct length and still encounter toe issues if your feet shift forward and backward as you walk.

'Slogger

bigcranky

12-10-2006, 10:47

I would second the suggestion of Superfeet. They will help prevent your foot from elongating as you walk. I would also look at different ways of tying your shoes to better 'lock in' your heel. Both of these have helped me with black toe issues.

MOWGLI

12-10-2006, 10:55

=========================================

Consider replacing the factory insole with a quality footbed. Something like SuperFeet might work for you.

I often wear Superfeet. I wore them during my thru-hike, and I wear them today in my Merrill boots. I did not wear them with my New Balance trail runners this summer.

This summer I did 50 miles on the Northville Placid Trail (can you say wet?) and 221+ miles on the John Muir Trail (can you say dry?) in NB Trail Runners. Add another 75 or so miles for day hikes, and I got about 350 miles from the same pair. They had more miles on them, but they smelled so foul, that I tossed them in the garbage at LAX before I flew home after the JMT.

Pacific Tortuga

12-10-2006, 11:37

This summer I did 50 miles on the Northville Placid Trail (can you say wet?) and 221+ miles on the John Muir Trail (can you say dry?) in NB Trail Runners. Add another 75 or so miles for day hikes, and I got about 350 miles from the same pair. They had more miles on them, but they smelled so foul, that I tossed them in the garbage at LAX before I flew home after the JMT.[/quote]

So that was the toxic smell that shut down the airport for hours. You may be hearing from homeland security, first responders have filled for workers comp due to cronic septum

bleeding. I am glad the NB trail runners worked well for you :)

Almost There

12-10-2006, 11:45

I have the same prolblem with my feet, but have learned to deal with it. This past summer on my long section I had both second toenails discolor. On my right foot it turned completelly black but it didn't come completely off for a couple of months. On my left foot it turned crimson and never completely came off. My toes were not hitting the front of the shoe when this happened as my big toe is my longest toe and it was not hitting either. It's from the way we step. I know sometimes my second toe presses off of the ground first when I walk barefoot. Long miles bruises it causing it to turn color. But as was stated, once it turns the pain goes away! As for blisters my problems essentially went away when I started wearing trail runners. I wear Solomons and would so recommend them to others, although I think NBs are great too. I can't wear boots because of other problems I have with my feet. Go with the trailrunners, you don't need boots on the AT.

FishBone

12-11-2006, 12:54

When you're at the New Balance store, try on some Dunham Waffle Stomper Nimble models, made by New Balance. They are made for hiking with a variety of widths, a taller shoe box to give plenty of room to your toes, and a more solid mid-sole to protect from rocks on the trail (more protection than trail runners, no weight penalty). I use them with SuperFeet and find them to provide plenty of toe room and support, but they didn"t entirely cure the dreaded "black toe" problem.

saimyoji

12-11-2006, 13:25

Footslogger

12-11-2006, 13:41

For toe nail care, cut a small "V" into the nail on your big toe to avoid ingrown nails. Works like a charm. Whenever I feel that pain that tells me I've forgotten, I make that little cut and the pain is gone in minutes.:cool:
========================

Not quite sure what you mean by a small "V" ??

Exactly where on the nail and how do you do it ??

'Slogger

Jim Adams

12-11-2006, 13:46

Mother's Finest

12-11-2006, 14:00

Hi Highway---You are clearly knowledgable regarding shoe gear.....As to what I would prescribe, formality dictates that I cannot prescribe, as I am not a doctor.
That said, I would start with her feet, and the running shoes she currently wears and causes a problem. As you said, the real key to a shoes fit is the last or shape of the shoe. Does the person have a very oblique foot, is it more narrow, is the instep high or low, all these things go into the fit. I would guess that she may slide forward in the shoe, coupled with it fitting a bit small. Again, just a guess.
The answer in almost all cases is the properly shaped, properly fit shoe coupled with the proper arch support. A custom orthotic that is made correctly will always work. Sometimes a pre-fab product, like Superfeet will work as well for proper arch support.

As to the comment regarding podiatrists, I concur with your opinion.

peace
mf

neo

12-11-2006, 14:07

my boot got a lot of toe damage hiking the white back in sept:cool: neo

rswanson

12-11-2006, 14:32

keep trying different shoes until you find the right one for your foot. i have tried alot of brands and i like the advantages of several over the others however i have found that if i want a good comfortable fit without blisters, i have to use Soloman's. i don't know why but they just happen to fit my foot like nothing else does. each brand is made a little different. you must find what works for your foot.
I second that advice. I had the same problem as the initial poster...toe nail pain. Never lost a toenail but I'm sure it was close. I had to try a few brands before I found one that worked. I have mild hammer toe, so it took some searching. I finally settled on Salomon as they seem to have the wider toe box that I need.

I know it sounds like a no-brainer but measure your feet. You might now be actually sizing up like you think you are. I thought I wore 10.5's (have since high school) but it turns out I'm an 11 now due to my arches falling and feet spreading a bit.

saimyoji

12-11-2006, 22:10

========================

Not quite sure what you mean by a small "V" ??

Exactly where on the nail and how do you do it ??

'Slogger

Sorry. Uh, well, just angle the clippers so you cut directly into the nail, like perpendicular to how you'd normally cut. Angle it a little to one side, then angle it back the other way to make the V. you end up with a little V shape right in the middle of your big toenail. Not in the middle middle, but more like in the middle edge of the nail. Hope this helps. It always helps me. YMMV

EMAN

12-11-2006, 22:56

I recently began to have "black toe" problems myself. Never had foot problems before whatsoever. The nail on the right toe has yet to come completely off but the second toe on each foot has lost the nails. As stated, what pain I encountered out on the BMT a few weeks back did go away pretty fast
Earlier, as I had the initial problem on one of the second toes, I visited a sports medicine Rx and, for reasons of supposedly making me walk different on flat feet I guess, he gave me some heel pads that actually caused way more difficulty. I wore them on a trip up the approach trail and I had some incredible foot pain by the time I was through. I have since deposited those things in a drawer.
And I have not been back out since the big toe went black.
I think there is more useful info here than I got from the Rx.

Frolicking Dinosaurs

12-11-2006, 23:01

I've used the "V" cut in an ingrown toenail - it does work like a charm.

I lost a toe nail several years ago to black nail. It was not a good time - interfered with my hiking for months (hurt when I tried after it fell off and before the new one grew all the way in). It is worth the time and trouble to avoid. I wear a 9.5 or 10 most of the time - an 11 on the trail to allow for the swelling.

peeb

12-12-2006, 14:25

This is my favorite site for lacing techniques:

http://www.newbalance.com/techcenter/footwear/lacing_for_a_better_fit.html

I lace my trail runners each a different way due to how they fit my feet. No problems.

NB shoes are great, with multiple sizing, and I find their toe box to be fairly roomy. Good luck!

peeb