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Almost There
12-13-2006, 12:30
Alright, perhaps it's just the slant that CNN plays it with, but what is it lately with the Media touting anyone ignorant who dies as being a "hero". I put this here because I am thinking of winter survival in relation to the story about James Kim, the CNET editor, who died in Oregon while walking for help. Now my heart does go out to his family and especially his young children as this did not have to happen. So the question is: Is he a hero for trying to save his family even if he did a stupid thing(taking off down a snowy road in tennis shoes, jeans, jacket, etc. He left in the morning, promised to be back a little after 1pm and never returned...hypothermia??? Probably, he was ignorant of the danger, so by that logic if we do something ill advised and then try to fix it, does that make us heroes?

The above doesn't even discuss the wrong turn they took while trying to head to a lodge and their decision to continue up a logging road even after it turned from pavement to gravel to dirt and then narrowed as trees began to choke their vehicle.

I guess I am just sick of the media trying to tell us how heroic people are just because they try to fix problems they themselves have made.

So was he simply ignorant and made a poor choice, or a hero?

Here's a link to the story:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/07/us/07oregon.html?

Hammerhead
12-13-2006, 12:44
This is just one of the many reasons why I hate the media. While I agree that the story is extremely tragic, I personally don't see him as a hero. As for the media, all they care about is ratings. Period.

Hammerhead
12-13-2006, 12:49
There's also some missing climbers on mt. hood.

I do think it was honorable that we put the needs of his family first before his, and that's why he left the car..

I would rather die trying than die not trying..

Honorable, sure. Heroic, no.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-13-2006, 12:57
I believe he was a fellow who made some mistakes and acted quite heroically on behalf of his family. Even though in hindsight he would have been much better off to have stayed on the road and carried the cell phone, leaving the safety of the car was a courageous thing to do. YMMV

Almost There
12-13-2006, 13:04
Hammerhead, I have to go with your take...honorable works....courageous/heroic...not.

Smile
12-13-2006, 13:08
Ditto Almost There and Hammerhead.

icemanat95
12-13-2006, 13:10
I think it was a tragedy and that making derrogatory comments about the dead man in this case is fairly rotten.

Sly
12-13-2006, 13:18
Well, he sure didn't put his family first when he took the short cut under the conditions. So calling him honorable, and or a hero, may be a stretch. That he compounded the issue by wandering into the woods only amplifies his ignorance.

It's a sad situation but spinning it doesn't help anyone, except for the wife and kids, if only temporarily. I'm sure they'll be tormented by the fact it didn't have to happen for years to come.

Ender
12-13-2006, 13:18
I don't think they're making derrogatory comments about the man, but about the media that is reporting on the man. At least that was my take.

Pacific Tortuga
12-13-2006, 13:18
The road they turned up is through a LOCKED gate. Some off-roaders of some kind cut the locks and opened the gate to enjoy the back country. The main road has very poor signs and at a critical fork the directions are spray painted on the street itself, just maybe a little hard to read ................. with snow covering it, not even a white blaze to follow.

I'm sure more details will surface, just because he does not fit you def. of what a hero is does not mean he is not. Media or not his family is alive and he gave his life in a honest search for help .......... at the least his intensions were heroic ......... in my book.

Sly
12-13-2006, 13:26
Sorry, can't agree, the folks that found the family are the heros. Without them the entire family would have been lost. You can't throw someone overboard and be called a hero for saving them.

Almost There
12-13-2006, 13:33
Oh gosh, I am gonna sound like Jack here, but Pacific, his intentions were "honorable" not heroic, if heroic then that would mean he intended to be a "hero". Truth be told, there are many hikers who make the same mistake he did to go across country, this does not make them heroes, just because children were involved does not make his decision heroic. Would you call him such if he had been alone? It's a tragedy for sure, and yes, I was commenting on the media's spin of the story, not the man himself. He made a judgement call in the hopes of saving his family, he elected to go, an honorable decision and effort. However, with what he was dressed in it is obvious to anyone who has spent time in the cold that he was ill prepared to get very far. It is sad that he had no knowledge of this, and there was no reporting in the story of what people should do in such a situation, when there was a chance to teach the public about situations, all we get is a "heroic story".

Pacific Tortuga
12-13-2006, 13:35
Sorry, can't agree, the folks that found the family are the heros. Without them the entire family would have been lost. You can't throw someone overboard and be called a hero for saving them.

Unless you were the skipper that sailed them into a squall and a rouge wave washed them over board, he then tacked back and saved them. FACTS not fantasy Sly and the SAR's team are hero's too. :)

Ender
12-13-2006, 13:37
On a three hour tour... :p

Pacific Tortuga
12-13-2006, 13:38
On a three hour tour... :p

HA ! exactly :)

Hammerhead
12-13-2006, 13:45
I think it was a tragedy and that making derrogatory comments about the dead man in this case is fairly rotten.

Who said anything derrogatory????? Please elaborate...

MOWGLI
12-13-2006, 13:49
I think it was a tragedy and that making derrogatory comments about the dead man in this case is fairly rotten.


Who said anything derrogatory????? Please elaborate...

Asking people to pass judgement on a dead man while his widow is still grieving is in bad taste.

Hammerhead
12-13-2006, 13:57
Asking people to pass judgement on a dead man while his widow is still grieving is in bad taste.

This was about the media calling him a hero. I'm simply stating my opinion, not passing judgement. And, I'm stating this to a bunch of hikers, not his wife or family.

MOWGLI
12-13-2006, 14:15
So was he stupid or a hero?



This was about the media calling him a hero.

Not really. It was about whether the dead guy is "stupid or a hero."

I'll continue to agree with Iceman.

Sly
12-13-2006, 14:16
Asking people to pass judgement on a dead man while his widow is still grieving is in bad taste.

It's not like we're sitting in the same room as her talking and she'll likely be grieving her entire life. The topic isn't taboo, and is similar in nature to any hiker dying when it's not necessary. People learn from others mistakes.

MOWGLI
12-13-2006, 14:22
It's not like we're sitting in the same room as her talking and she'll likely be grieving her entire life. The topic isn't taboo, and is similar in nature to any hiker dying when it's not necessary. People learn from others mistakes.

You're right. Let's talk about what happened in Duncannon. (not really. just making a point.)

max patch
12-13-2006, 14:34
You're right. Let's talk about what happened in Duncannon. (not really. just making a point.)

You beat me to it. Was gonna make the same exact point.

copythat
12-13-2006, 14:40
ok, let's pass judgment ... what makes a person a hero?

and can a "stupid" person (or an unprepared person, or a person who has gotten her/himself into a dangerous situation) be a hero?

K0OPG
12-13-2006, 14:46
Instead of being courageous/heroic/whatever, if he would have stayed with the family in the car, he would have been found the next morning too.

Being a safety officer in the military and an accident investigator all "accidents" start with one oops/awe****/mistake/omission/bad choice. ie going on a road trip through snowey mountains without any supplies/safety gear/extra clothes/candles; taking a wrong turn, maps/gps/garmin?; keeping on driving when road becomes more and more dangerous, ego/stupidity/ignorance. we will never know because he is dead but as I have told my son many many times: an accident is something that happens that you "absolutely could have done nothing to prevent". I had a wreck in the rain...no you lost control of your car in the rain because you were driving too fast for conditions!

anyway...jmho

Hammerhead
12-13-2006, 14:53
ok, let's pass judgment ... what makes a person a hero?

and can a "stupid" person (or an unprepared person, or a person who has gotten her/himself into a dangerous situation) be a hero?


First, I don't think he was "stupid". A maker of some bad choices? Yes. You're question is kind of vague. Sure, a person who is unprepared or who has found themselves in a dangerous situation can most certainly be considered by some a hero - depending on the choices they make.

Almost There
12-13-2006, 15:11
Not really. It was about whether the dead guy is "stupid or a hero."

I'll continue to agree with Iceman.

Poor word choice on my part, so I edited. However, I don't believe in mollycoddling simply because someone died! I have done stupid things in the past and because I lived they were stupid, but if I had died, all of a sudden it absolves me of my ignorance or stupidity? It's PC krap like that, that rots our country. If I was speaking to his wife I would tell her how sorry I was for her loss, etc....and I would mean it...I might think he made a poor choice but she does not need to hear it from me.

It's getting away from me, but I also said that it was a chance for the media to tell people best practices for dealing with a situation such as the one he found himself in. We all know going down into a ravine, well equipped is a poor, poor choice, let alone going down in a jacket and tennis shoes.

Bottom line again: Should the media be hailing him as a hero? You can remove the stupid or ignorant if you like. In my world, btw, honor matters more than heroism, because anyone can stumble and be heroic, but it takes true character to be honorable.

Also, I chose poor words meant to use ignorant, didn't want to call him stupid, he didn't know better and thought he was doing the right thing, I would call myself stupid if I did similiar, because I do know better.

copythat
12-13-2006, 15:12
First, I don't think he was "stupid". A maker of some bad choices? Yes. Your question is kind of vague. Sure, a person who is unprepared or who has found themselves in a dangerous situation can most certainly be considered by some a hero - depending on the choices they make.

if my question seems vague, maybe that's because the term 'hero' is vague, too. i'm betting this guy's widow sees something heroic in his effort to help his family. whether we see that same thing ...

i'm just asking what qualifies as heroism, of any kind? maybe it's easier to see someone as a hero when we believe they were put into a situation they did not choose, or create ...

... but can you make a mistake and then be a hero in your efforts to extricate yourself from the danger? do the standards change when there are others depending on you? do the standards change if your efforts fail? (what if this guy had survived, had reached help?) do they change if you make another mistake trying to save yourself (or others)?

i don't have answers. just more questions.

PJ 2005
12-13-2006, 15:46
I didn't learn this until yesterday, but apparently the rescue crew that found his wife and kids did so by following his tracks in the snow - they didn't just stumble upon the car.

The argument could be made that although he put his family in a bad situation (accidentally), he could very well be the reason they are still alive.

Hammerhead
12-13-2006, 15:46
if my question seems vague, maybe that's because the term 'hero' is vague, too. i'm betting this guy's widow sees something heroic in his effort to help his family. whether we see that same thing ...

i'm just asking what qualifies as heroism, of any kind? maybe it's easier to see someone as a hero when we believe they were put into a situation they did not choose, or create ...

... but can you make a mistake and then be a hero in your efforts to extricate yourself from the danger? do the standards change when there are others depending on you? do the standards change if your efforts fail? (what if this guy had survived, had reached help?) do they change if you make another mistake trying to save yourself (or others)?

i don't have answers. just more questions.

You raise some good points. IMO even if he had made it and found help I still wouldn't call his efforts heroic, I would have simply said that he was lucky(considering the circumstances).

Almost There
12-13-2006, 16:45
I didn't learn this until yesterday, but apparently the rescue crew that found his wife and kids did so by following his tracks in the snow - they didn't just stumble upon the car.

The argument could be made that although he put his family in a bad situation (accidentally), he could very well be the reason they are still alive.


They may have followed his footprints but actually spotted her from a helicopter when she signalled it with an umbrella. So she saved herself when she saw the helicopter by signalling. Rescuers also had an approximation due to cellular triangulation they had the area narrowed down.

Look guys and gals, I know he thought he was doing right and was trying to save his children, my comments are not meant to try to paint him to be a bad guy...because from all accounts he was a great guy. My comments are more directed towards the media and why do we as a society look towards tragedy(above) and the tragic(Hollywood) :eek: for our heroes and celebrity.

rswanson
12-13-2006, 20:30
I'd like to see what sort of 'rational' decisions some of the folks posting on this thread would make trapped in the snow for a week with kids and a wife to care for. But that's beside the point I guess.

More to the point: anyone who commits an act that they consider their best (or only) option, knowing full well it could cost them their life, in the effort to save someone else is a hero. Period. If you can't see that then your vision is clouded by pretention. This guy wasn't a SAR certified outdoorsman...by all accounts he was a everyday family man. I have seen a lot of hindsight-advice that this guy should've stayed put; that would've saved his hide. The fact of the matter is that he did stay put for a week. They were cold and hungry and I'm certain Mr. Kim believed they were out of options; no one was coming for them in time. As much as it may have been an act of desperation, I'm sure his final act was undoubtedly what he believed was the only chance to save his family.

Jack Tarlin
12-13-2006, 20:37
Also, especially in the case of the children, it could well be that if they were NOT fated to be rescued, he preferred to die trying to get help rather than stay put and watch his family suffer, especially as he'd be in little position to do anything for them but watch.

He did what he felt best, and the second-guessing, as well as some of the harsher criticisms I've heard, seem more than a bit unfair. I don't think anyone can really know what they might do in a situation like that til it happens.

bfitz
12-13-2006, 21:20
Maybe he was a bit deranged from having not eaten, since they'd been giving all the food to the kids, and maybe he was ignorant about how to handle such a situation, even stupid for getting into such a situation, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he gave everything he had mentally and physically (even if it wasn't much...) fighting for his family. Is a disabled person who struggles to achieve something most people can do easily a hero? Is a person who gives everything they have in vain a hero? Is heroism dependent upon success or upon sacrifice, perseverance, not giving up? We can't really know for sure what he gave in his own private mental ordeal, but....

Lone Wolf
12-13-2006, 21:22
None of you dickwads were there. Let the guy rest in peace. Buncha friggin cyber know-it-alls.:rolleyes:

woodsy
12-13-2006, 21:32
None of you dickwads were there. Let the guy rest in peace. Buncha friggin cyber know-it-alls.:rolleyes:

Can't wait to hear what they'll say about me when I screw up on one of my solo excursions and wind up dead......And I'll be listening WBer's:rolleyes: So carefull whatcha say.
Psssst"he didn't have his cell phone" LOL

Almost There
12-13-2006, 22:29
Thanks, Wolf I'll gladly take the title of "Dickwad"...add it to my other illustrious titles!!!:D

LostInSpace
12-13-2006, 22:31
Buncha friggin cyber know-it-alls.:rolleyes:

How did WB get so many of these? :rolleyes:

Almost There
12-13-2006, 22:51
Remember the premise of my first post was to look at the media not the man. I have not faulted the man for doing what he thought was right, and I also started to get caught up in the arguement. My point was that the media throws this word around too liberally.

Let's leave off looking at the man, we know the story, but what about the media, I stand by and reiterate that it was a chance for the media to teach best practices for how ordinary people can best deal with such a situation if stuck. Every report I saw talked nothing of this and simply bleated on and on about what a hero he was. Then again perhaps I see a hero as something greater than and attach a certain special significance to those we call heroes. Then again this could also point to a society that is doing away with any symbols of superiority for fear it will hurt fragile egos. Examples run from doing away with Valedictorians, honor rolls, not keeping score in children's sporting events. The overall wanting to make our children special to everyone not just to the parents. It creates an evironment where people cannot accept critcism as a potential positive, but see it only as a negative. This event was tragic and made even more so by a lack of attention to what people can do to protect themselves if caught in a similiar situation.

snuffy smith
12-14-2006, 01:04
Lone Wolf rocks.

copythat
12-14-2006, 01:18
this thread began with a slam on the media tossing around a label (in this case "hero") and on ignorant people who die in hazardous situations they themselves have created (in this case mr. kim).

now we've forgiven mr. kim but have wound up back at that first premise ... that the media is somehow contributing to society's voyage (in an ultralight handbasket) to that special place below.

i'm known for catching on slowly, so it's not surprising that i miss the connection between the deceased mr. kim, the media and the precipitous descent of society.

that said, i think it's time i return to other threads, where i fully expect to find (from time to time, at least) a chance to learn from others' knowledge and experience ... toward the goal of becoming a competent walker in the woods, independent and self-sufficient, staying dry in the rain and warm in the cold, not sniveling and not blaming others for what becomes of me ... or the rest of society.

RAT
12-14-2006, 01:21
Lone Wolf rocks.

He rocks to Ted Nugent most of the time ;-) Who else would call a bunch of people "dickwads" LOL

RAT

micromega
12-14-2006, 08:55
We all have our own conception of what 'hero' means. According to the dictionary, a hero is "a person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life."

That definition could fit (though with quite a bit of stretching). My read is that there is an underlying implication of repeated acts of courage rather than an isolated incident. So while I could see the effort made to save his family being called heroic, I'd stop short of calling the man a hero. I don't think this reflects negatively on the man or detracts in any way from what he tried to do.

Almost There, your statement that it was a chance for the media to teach best practices got me thinking (and I'm not sure thats a good thing :-? ). Look at this from the journalistic perspective - how exactly do you show what 'should' have been done without denigrating the man and what he actually did? This current thread is a beautiful example of the pitfalls involved. I do not believe the media is the correct place for this sort of discussion, and I'd rather see it here on WB.

Hammerhead
12-14-2006, 10:00
None of you dickwads were there. Let the guy rest in peace. Buncha friggin cyber know-it-alls.:rolleyes:


1982 called, they want their word back. :D

Almost There
12-14-2006, 10:31
1982 called, they want their word back. :D

That's like totally awesome!!!:D

Almost There
12-14-2006, 10:34
Why would it be denigrating to have an outdoor survival expert on. CNN used experts for everything, and I mean everything else. You could explain that he did what most people would do, but to increase your chance of survival here is what you should do in such cases. Since when has saying that someone was ignorant of the facts become an insult. We wonder why kids have become so screwed up today....huggy, touchy, feely, PC krap is to blame!

micromega
12-14-2006, 11:28
When did pointing out ignorance become an insult? Probably back when those tort reforms turned us into an overly litigous society?

The slightest mis-step in the media would likely be construed as grounds for a lawsuit by those whose emotions have been rubbed the rawest, family and friends. Is it worth getting into? When you're in charge of a business and have your eye on the bottom line, probably not.

For what its worth, I agree with Almost There (huggy huggy touchy feely, etc... Whatever happened to rugged individualism and personal responsibility?). This represents a huge missed opportunity for accomplishing something positive as opposed to wallowing in simple sensationalism. At the very least I'd have liked to see a segment on what to do in that situation (what to put in the car, hypothermia, etc) in the hopes of preventing another such tragedy.

Almost There
12-14-2006, 11:42
Thanks, Micro, that's sorta where I was trying to go before the thread started going this way and that, drifting slowly off topic.

leeki pole
12-14-2006, 12:05
The Weather Channel has segments weekly about outdoor survival and winter driving preparedness. Sadly, very few take note.

Hammerhead
12-14-2006, 12:23
And don't forget the Discovery Channel, lots of great info.

Tractor
12-14-2006, 12:27
""but what is it lately with the Media touting anyone ignorant who dies as being a "hero""

In some sense we are the media, or at least the media reflects back what "we" seem to radiate per-story/per-instance. Most folks are heros to someone when they die, regardless the cause, regardless the means, regardless the media coverage or lack of it.

I'm a bit uneasy with how quickly and easily we/media seem to place the hero badge on more and more people now...or is it my imagination? Seems everybody who is rescued is a hero, everyone even remotely involved with a rescue is a hero, everyone in a bad place at a bad time and doesn't survive is a hero, anyone who participates in a group or organization which helps or protects us is a hero, everyone who makes a wopper of a mistake in their lives and corrects it is a hero, everyone who overcomes adversity is a hero, everyone who lives through a bad time/event is a hero.....not to disagree with all these tags but before long we'll all be heros through one connection or another. That, to me, would diminish the true meaning.

highway
12-14-2006, 12:38
The Weather Channel has segments weekly about outdoor survival and winter driving preparedness. Sadly, very few take note.

i was under the impression that most folks (westerners, particularly) who lived in a more severe climate carried in their automobile a survival package of at least a few items for warmth, shelter, signaling and, for hotter, drier areas, extra water. I am a Floridian and I carry some of those. Food is not immediately important.

I have no clue as to his hero status, though, as I wasnt there. In hindsight, I believe I would have been more inclined to have walked the road, though, and not try and bushwack across a mountainous, snow-covered drainage.

I am sorry for the family's loss. There is little doubt that he did what he felt he had to do to save them. Like many others before him, whether labelled hero or not-he just found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time and did what he felt he had to do.

rswanson
12-14-2006, 13:06
i was under the impression that most folks (westerners, particularly) who lived in a more severe climate carried in their automobile a survival package of at least a few items for warmth, shelter, signaling and, for hotter, drier areas, extra water. I am a Floridian and I carry some of those. Food is not immediately important.
Man some of you people are way off base. They were trapped in their car for a week! They could've had an entire trunkfull of survial gear and still been in deep *****. So the guy made a bad decision by turning onto a road that wasn't in drivable condition. Does that mean that a desperation attempt to find a way out of the situation wasn't heroic? He probably knew he was giving his life up but he obiviously thought no one was looking for them and he had to do something.

And why are you guys so negative about what the press says? 'Heroic' is just another label the press uses to package up their product and sell it. We all know that. A word like that gets attention. News is a marketable media commodity; a billion dollar industry. The 'news' stopped being just the 'news' decades ago. Its no different from any other source of mass-media entertainment. Is that concept surprising anyone? I doubt it.

D'Artagnan
12-14-2006, 13:38
""but what is it lately with the Media touting anyone ignorant who dies as being a "hero""

In some sense we are the media, or at least the media reflects back what "we" seem to radiate per-story/per-instance. Most folks are heros to someone when they die, regardless the cause, regardless the means, regardless the media coverage or lack of it.

I'm a bit uneasy with how quickly and easily we/media seem to place the hero badge on more and more people now...or is it my imagination? Seems everybody who is rescued is a hero, everyone even remotely involved with a rescue is a hero, everyone in a bad place at a bad time and doesn't survive is a hero, anyone who participates in a group or organization which helps or protects us is a hero, everyone who makes a wopper of a mistake in their lives and corrects it is a hero, everyone who overcomes adversity is a hero, everyone who lives through a bad time/event is a hero.....not to disagree with all these tags but before long we'll all be heros through one connection or another. That, to me, would diminish the true meaning.


I couldn't agree more with what you've said and this is what I believe Almost There was driving at. The overuse of the word "hero" diminishes its significance. There are undoubtedly heroes, but the laziness with which the media tends to assign this appellation makes it a hollow expression.


Maybe it's an indication of the PC world we now live in where everybody needs to feel special and we want everyone to feel important. Well guess what? We're not all special and we're not all important. We may like to think we are, but in the pond of life, many of us will never make a ripple.

Vi+
12-14-2006, 13:57
Heroism has to do with bravery. Bravery is a willingness to deal with pain or danger. Stupidity, in and of itself, isn’t actually a factor. I can see if one’s stupidity blinds him/her to the danger of their chosen action, that stupidity may eliminate bravery and thus heroism.

This guy remained with his family, snowbound in a car, for a long period of time under poor conditions. He left his family to seek help, entering outside conditions which were worse. If he recognized the outside conditions were bad before he left, which his long stay suggests - CAUTION: there is NO BASIS for the next assumption - and didn’t leave simply because his missus hen-pecking became more intolerable than the prospect of death, he accepted the risks and I consider his act as brave.

His bravery exists, apart from any prior decisions which may have contributed to the hazard.

Heroism includes some sense of admiration for his action.

I would have liked to hike with him at least once. Not then, but some other time.

Almost There
12-14-2006, 13:59
I couldn't agree more with what you've said and this is what I believe Almost There was driving at. The overuse of the word "hero" diminishes its significance. There are undoubtedly heroes, but the laziness with which the media tends to assign this appellation makes it a hollow expression.


Maybe it's an indication of the PC world we now live in where everybody needs to feel special and we want everyone to feel important. Well guess what? We're not all special and we're not all important. We may like to think we are, but in the pond of life, many of us will never make a ripple.

Yep, you've got it, look at how people so easily say they are offended, has anyone ever read the definition? It's a pretty serious feeling, people cheapen it when they say they're offended by a Xmas tree, etc.

Read the definition for hero, then look at classical examples. A Hero is someone like York, Audie Murphy, The Greeks at Thermopylae. If you can leave without being killed and you choose to stay for almost certain death.

There are several philosophical books out on the subject of heroism and courage. Someone can act in a courageous or heroic way without being a hero. Heroes are usually individuals who time and again rise above the din. Admiral Nelson at Trafalgar, Edward the Black Prince, and Julius Caesar. Legend usually surrounds them. These, of course, are classic examples stemming from Greek Myths of Heroes, which stemmed from earlier tales.

Desert Lobster
12-14-2006, 14:14
About how far by road was the car from civilization? In other words, could he have stayed on the road and easily walked out instead of taking the chance of going offroad and losing his way or just getting worn down more quickly in rough terrain?

Almost There
12-14-2006, 14:24
No, to be fair he would have probably succumbed to the elements either way. He made it 16 miles. I saw a map of it, he would have made it back to the main road going back the way he came, but with the weather...it wouldn't have mattered unless someone was on their way towards him.

TOW
12-14-2006, 14:30
This is just one of the many reasons why I hate the media. While I agree that the story is extremely tragic, I personally don't see him as a hero. As for the media, all they care about is ratings. Period.
I for one thought it was very heroic for him and his immediate family to at least give it his best shot. No one knew where they were at and someone needed to do something and being the man that he was he did the next best thing. That's what a hero does, he does the next best thing despite the odds.

Desert Lobster
12-14-2006, 14:31
Any idea of the distance needed to travel? Did he leave in the morning? Thus, a full day to travel. Quicker on the road than through the woods. How deep was the snow? How far from the open gate? Was the snow plowed on other side of the open gate?

Dancer
12-14-2006, 14:55
I haven't read all posts (no time) so this may already have been said.

I don't think that I could have stayed with the car and watched my babies die. I would have gone for help too. Sitting in his car watching his family die would have been cowardly. His efforts were honorable and I'm sure to his wife and babies, he will always be a hero. He wasn't stupid, he was doing everything in his power to save his family. Even stupid people know not to walk through conditions like that in sneakers and jeans. He was desperate, not stupid. I can't say I would have done differently.

rswanson
12-14-2006, 15:28
I haven't read all posts (no time) so this may already have been said.

I don't think that I could have stayed with the car and watched my babies die. I would have gone for help too. Sitting in his car watching his family die would have been cowardly. His efforts were honorable and I'm sure to his wife and babies, he will always be a hero. He wasn't stupid, he was doing everything in his power to save his family. Even stupid people know not to walk through conditions like that in sneakers and jeans. He was desperate, not stupid. I can't say I would have done differently.
You've got the gist of it without reading the entire thread. Some seem to be worried that using a word like 'hero' in this case is contributing to the decay of our society. Others seem to be upset because the literal definition of the word 'hero' may not be completely satisfied Mr. Kim's actions. I looked up the word 'hero' on dictionary.com and I get this:

1.a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities. 2.a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.

Looks like 'hero' applies here as plenty are in admiration of his act. Let's look at this from a different angle. Let's say he did get out of there and bring rescuers back to his trapped family. Certainly we would be justified in calling Mr. Kim a hero then. But if we cannot apply that term now, is being a hero contingent upon success? I'm sure Mr. Kim was uncertain of his fate when he struck out alone. Whether he acheived his objective or not should not factor into the evaluation of his stature as a hero.

leeki pole
12-14-2006, 15:52
All good, but we're hikers here. We know the risks, we are prepared. With all due respect, I don't think Mr. Kim was. He took a huge gamble, albeit for worthy results. He failed. Yes, he's a hero in my book, but still, for what end?

I've thought a lot about this. I and my Labrador are SAR certified. I would've probably done the same thing, but....why, why stray off of the road? Doesn't make any sense at all. I mourn for his family and pray for his young children. Hurts, for sure. :(

weary
12-14-2006, 16:36
Alright, perhaps it's just the slant that CNN plays it with, but what is it lately with the Media touting anyone ignorant who dies as being a "hero". ...I guess I am just sick of the media trying to tell us how heroic people are just because they try to fix problems they themselves have made.http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/07/us/07oregon.html?
I disagree with your premise, that the media regularly touts such incidents as the work of heros. I don't often see CNN. But certainly the New York Times makes no such claim. The best they could do was to quote a sheriff as speculating that the victim was "highly motivated."

IN 35 or so years of newspaper work I don't recall ever calling anyone a hero -- or anything else for that matter. I usually reported on what people did, or quoted what they said and left it up to the readers to supply whatever to call those actions or words.It's my observation that most media have similar practices today.

Weary

rswanson
12-14-2006, 16:51
I usually reported on what people did, or quoted what they said and left it up to the readers to supply whatever to call those actions or words.It's my observation that most media have similar practices today.
I don't know man. I see a lot of slant in the news media everyday, even if its in what they choose (or not choose) to cover. But I guess I'm digressing from the thread topic.

Almost There
12-14-2006, 17:18
I disagree with your premise, that the media regularly touts such incidents as the work of heros. I don't often see CNN. But certainly the New York Times makes no such claim. The best they could do was to quote a sheriff as speculating that the victim was "highly motivated."

IN 35 or so years of newspaper work I don't recall ever calling anyone a hero -- or anything else for that matter. I usually reported on what people did, or quoted what they said and left it up to the readers to supply whatever to call those actions or words.It's my observation that most media have similar practices today.

Weary

Weary,

I am going off of several mornings of news coverage between 6 and 7am eastern time in which they kept refering to him as a hero. I wouldn't make it up.

It's about the urge to sensationalize. Whether we're talking heroes or Mark Foley, or swiftboat veterans, or missing girls in Aruba. This tends to be more the tendencies of the televised media/press vs. that of the written. Suffering and tragedies sell. I did like the fact that they did show what a good guys he was with vid. clips. That was a refreshing change.

As for why he went off of the road, all I can think of was that he went hypothermic and became disoriented, he was afterall in a jacket and tennis shoes, no real winter gear.

BTW, people can be brave without being heroes. If as a child I stand up to a bully and get the snot pounded out of me, does that make me a hero? Brave, certainly, honorable, you bet, courageous even, but a hero.

Typically, a hero succeeds in some way even if he dies. If a soldier charges an enemy line and dies for no apparent purpose in a war, is he a hero?

I'll use George Armstrong Custer as an example, at one time hailed as a hero only later to be maligned when the full truth of his actions came out. Custer splits his force, leaves his heavy guns including Gatlings behind and does not wait for the main force to arrive. He attacks the Indian forces gathered and only after he realizes he is outmanned does he try to pull back to a ridge to make a stand. He did something stupid, tried to correct it and failed. Personally, I think he was stupid and not heroic. Brave, no doubt, courageous, absolutely, but a hero??? Even had he walked away, getting out of stupid situations of one's own making does not make one a hero, it merely makes them lucky! (BTW, I am not likening Kim to Custer! Merely, giving an example based on other's arguments.)

vipahman
12-14-2006, 18:19
I guess I am just sick of the media trying to tell us how heroic people are just because they try to fix problems they themselves have made.
Ah yes, the media's way of putting a silver lining on sad news.

Just like the heroic Flight 93 passengers (they had no choice), the heroic IED victims killed in Iraq (they never saw it coming), blah, blah, blah.

The only heroism I can think of in the past decade or so has been the NYFD during 9/11. I'm sure there would be firefights in Iraq which would qualify but these never seem to make the news.

Media has degenerated to entertainment. I wish they just went back to newsreaders instead of anchors because anchors need ratings and ratings are derived from entertainment and sad news can never be entertainment unless there are heroes. :mad:

Almost There
12-14-2006, 21:59
I agree with you in part Vipaman, but I would call the passengers on 93 heroes because they could have just sat back and let the terrorists do what they wanted, but instead they most likely saved lives by acting, they also did not put themselves in that situation, unless you consider buying the tickets that got them on that flight. I understand your point though, Television Press=Entertainment.

weary
12-14-2006, 22:12
I agree with you in part Vipaman, but I would call the passengers on 93 heroes because they could have just sat back and let the terrorists do what they wanted, but instead they most likely saved lives by acting, they also did not put themselves in that situation, unless you consider buying the tickets that got them on that flight. I understand your point though, Television Press=Entertainment.
Well the only media that uses a "press" is print. Readers are abandoning print in droves, except for supermarket tabloids. I take it that the public prefers entertainment.

That's the complicated argument. For those who don't want such depth, consider why Bush was elected (almost, or just barely) at least once, maybe twice.

Weary

Almost There
12-14-2006, 22:25
I stand corrected on my terminology Weary, and I definitely see the correlation for the second Bush election.