Winter AT Start 2007 [Archive]

gardenville

12-13-2006, 16:04

"woodsy" has a thread about wildlife on the AT in Maine NOW. I hope he will see this and responds. I didn't want to post on his thread as my question is not really about his topic.

I have been getting myself ready for an AT Thur-Hike to start in January 2007 - NOBO or SOBO? I have wanted to do an AT SOBO starting the first of January for a number of years. The main thing stopping me now is being able to get really current trail condition information about the AT in Maine between now and through the end of January so I can decide if it might be possible. Then I would need addition weather/trail info for NH and south maybe as far as Mass.

I was reading the thread by "woodsy" about the wildlife he saw on his recent hike in Maine and I decided to post my questions about a January Maine start. I have done enough planning to know where all the shelters are and where the trail crosses the Hwy's between Grafton Notch and Baxter. If I start in Maine I would start at the NH Hwy 2 trailhead (AT mile 297.9 from Katahdin) near Gorham, NH and go north to Baxter. I also know I can get shuttles between all the Maine AT trailheads if I need to get off the trail for a few days.

Woodsy - or Others:-
What is the condition of the AT where you are located now? Do you think a person could start at the NH / Maine State Line about the first of January and get to Baxter on the AT in 30 days or so? I know that a lot depends on the amount of snow you get but what is YOURS or OTHERS thought about the condition of the AT during that time frame?

I have wanted to try something like this for several years and I have time this January/February. Not to imply it would take 2 months but I have that much time. I can try the AT in Maine and maybe some of NH and south or just start at Springer and go north for 60 to 75 days.

If a did a SOBO and the weather was OK I would go back to my NH starting point and continue south till the second week of March. Yes, I know the White Mtns are a big concern. I have been around Mt Washington twice in the winter and I know how hard the Whites can be. Maybe it is enough to just do Maine and then go to Springer and head north.

I have a bunch of medical and dental appointments the last of March that I need to go home for. When they are finished I can restart where ever I got off the trail - NOBO or SOBO - and continue till I am finished.

One way or another I expect to start NOBO or SOBO the first of January 2007.

Nean

12-13-2006, 16:09

Just my opinion, I don't know you, but see your age. I wouldn't recommend a fit 25 year old start a sobo in Jan. Try it from Springer and if that is too easy for you- flip.

rafe

12-13-2006, 16:38

Hello, Gardenville... I'm noticing not just your age but where you're from. Have you been to northern New England? In winter? Have you climbed any hills over 4000 feet, in New England, in winter? Have you ever spent a night on one of those hills, out of doors, in winter?

If I'm not mistaken, it was your thread that I so rudely barged into -- the one asking about an AT thru hike with 3-5 resupplies. People are taking you seriously. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm wondering if you have any clue of what you're up against.

Please understand. People die on these mountains, every year. Smart people. People who think they're smarter than the mountains. There's a plaque on the wall of the AMC lodge at Pinkham Notch. I don't think you want your name on it. Or do you?

Wolf - 23000

12-13-2006, 16:40

Gardenville,

It is possible to do Maine in 30 days in January. I did it in 2005.

Before I go any farther, Maine in the winter is no joke. Unless you have a huge amount of experence, DO NOT TRY IT!!! I did it alone. A normal thru-hiker does not have knowledge to complete such a hike. I`m not saying that to put anyone down or put myself above anyone but when it below 0, and you're standing in 2 feet of water, what do you do. Or the mountains you climbing is one sheet of ice, do that for 10 miles/all day. Cook your food, within 20 minutes your hot food becomes frozen.

As I said, winter hiking Maine is no joke but if your set on doing it I'll help you out.

Wolf

P.S. The entire 30 days I saw very little wildlife - 1 moose on a road and a fox on top of Mount Washington.

Frosty

12-13-2006, 17:03

Echoing what others said (and will say), this is not something to attempt without experience winter backpacking in ADKS, Whites or Maine. The cold is so dibilitating it is hard to imagine if you haven't been there at night. As Wolf said, cooked food freezes quickly and you can't even remove your mitts to eat, etc. Even if you are exerienced and have snowshoes, crampons, -10* or -20* bag, etc etc, this isn't a trivial trip.

However, on the assumption you have experience winter camping in below zero weather, to get an idea of trail conditions, go to:

http://www.viewsfromthetop.com/index-vftt.html

click on trail conditions, then MAINE

There aren't many that coincide with the AT, but there are some. Here's one for Carlo Col/Goose Eye. This is near NH border and note that the hikers couldn't find the trail from Goose Eye to Carlo Col:

Trail: Goose Eye Mt. via the Goose Eye Trail
Date Hiked: 12-09-06

Conditions: The road was plowed, except for the little road off to the right where you park, but we got there. There was more snow the higher you got. About 5" down low which filled in the mud. The 2 crossings were a little challenging, but they were frozen just enough to get across. Actually we spent time breaking & finding the trail. Sorry, no snowshoes needed! As you got up there, had to put on the crampons. Plenty of ice & a lot more snow. Some 3' drifts. Out on the ledges, we were fully exposed to a steady, very strong wind. It was nice that it was blowing from behind us. But we were covered with gear. WINTER came to mind! We tried to find the trail to head over to Carlo col, but it was very low visibility, and we would spend a lot of time trail finding and breaking trail as everything was buried in snow. So with that & the wind howling, we just went back down Goose Eye.

Special Required Equipment: Crampons and full winter gear.

Comments: We did get to use the headlamps for the last mile. It was a nice day to get back into winter with Dave, Julie and last but not least Diane.

Submitted by: WildPeaks

gardenville

12-13-2006, 17:08

[QUOTE=terrapin_too;285055]Hello, Gardenville... I'm noticing not just your age but where you're from. ETC Quote]

A - Where a person now lives says nothing about where that person may have lived at another time of his or her life. I spent 28 years as an Army Infantryman and have lived in a few cold places. I am not at new-be at hiking / backpacking in cold weather. In my world you don't live to be 66 by being foolish.

Q - Have you been to northern New England?
A - Yes

Q - In winter?
A- Yes

Q - Have you climbed any hills over 4000 feet, in New England, in winter?
A - Yes, Mt Jefferson - Mt Washington and others several times in winter.

Q - Have you ever spent a night on one of those hills, out of doors, in winter?
A - Yes, But I don't camp above treeline. Normally used the Perch when hiking on that end of the Mt Washington area.

Q - If I'm not mistaken, it was your thread that I so rudely barged into -- the one asking about an AT thru hike with 3-5 resupplies. People are taking you seriously. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm wondering if you have any clue of what you're up against.
A - The question about 3 to 5 resupplies was a topic from backpackinglight.com and generated a few good comments and a bunch of what is normal for WB members. Non answer - answers don't bother me.

Q - Please understand. People die on these mountains, every year. Smart people. People who think they're smarter than the mountains. There's a plaque on the wall of the AMC lodge at Pinkham Notch. I don't think you want your name on it. Or do you?
A - I know how easy it is to die on or near Mt Washington. One March long ago I was up there the season 5 people died. I have also been a volunteer caretaker for the Maine AT Club one summer at the old Avery Shelter in August and it snowed one night.

Why do you think I am asking questions about trail conditions during the January time period.

Nean

12-13-2006, 17:13

Write me into your will and have a nice trip!:)

rafe

12-13-2006, 17:19

FWIW, a report from last Saturday, 12/9. A friend from work -- about 30 years old, built like a tank, and has spent the summer bagging the 4000 footers. His last two peaks to bag were Lincoln and Lafayette. I was half thinking about joining him and his girlfriend, and wimped out.

His report: there was a foot of loose snow on the trail, from the parking lot on up. Temps were in the teens and the wind was a steady 30 mph or so. They went up Falling Waters trail, over the ridge, and down Bridle Path. It took them 9.5 hours to do the loop, with day packs. IIRC, the loop is around 8 miles or so. About 3000 feet from road to summit. They did under 1 MPH, with day packs. Walked by headlamp for the last hour or so.

Don't forget -- we're not at "peak cold" yet, by a longshot. And this was in New Hampshire, not Maine. He showed up Monday at work with a terrific cold, which he insists is not from the hike. ;)

Frosty

12-13-2006, 17:32

gardenville

12-13-2006, 17:34

Wolf - 2300,
Thanks for the offer to help.

Frosty,
Thanks, This is just the kind of information I am looking for. The "views from the top" web site is a good one and I have bookmarked it. The only way I would try this is in a low snow situation where I could find the trail without a lot of trouble. I have all the necessary gear for real cold temperatures but that kind of cold is not much fun. I know what it is like to have my food freeze faster than I could eat it.

terrapin_too,
I look at the Mt Washington web cams and read their comments and their forum every morning. The weather this year has been funny. Snow - then rain - then snow. I was starting to believe Al Gore, not really.

I will give myself a few days to watch the weather.

woodsy

12-13-2006, 17:38

[quote=gardenville;285043

I was reading the thread by "woodsy" about the wildlife he saw on his recent hike in Maine and I decided to post my questions about a January Maine start.

Woodsy - or Others:-
What is the condition of the AT where you are located now? Do you think a person could start at the NH / Maine State Line about the first of January and get to Baxter on the AT in 30 days or so? I know that a lot depends on the amount of snow you get but what is YOURS or OTHERS thought about the condition of the AT during that time frame?

One way or another I expect to start NOBO or SOBO the first of January
2007.[/quote]

Gardenville, heed the advice others have posted on the severity of mountain conditions here in January, the worst month for low temps and windy conditions, especially towards the end of January(The DEAD of winter). And I hope my post on wildlife didn't mislead you, I was referring to tracks I saw except for the Ruffed Grouse(partridge).That particular area I was in was heavily populated with game though(evergreen habitat)
Current conditions in Maine: With rain falling now, anyone should expect that conditions will worsen and ice will cover most everything when temps dip to below freezing again. The warm winters of late have made for treacherous hiking/climbing in winter and specialized gear is necessary.Once things ice up it takes a good amount of snow in order to get traction with boots or snowshoes w/crampons. That snow did not come last winter, not enough anyway.
If you go NOBO from springer you'll probably get a good enough taste of winter and less chance of failure/complications.
Hope all the info you get at WB helps you make a wise decision.

rafe

12-13-2006, 17:39

[quote=terrapin_too;285055]In my world you don't live to be 66 by being foolish.

I wouldn't know, I'm only 54. ;)

Sorry to trouble you, but do notice I'm not the only one thinking the idea is just a teensy bit reckless. Do what you must. Be careful. I have nothing to offer except my sincere concern for your safety.

Jack Tarlin

12-13-2006, 20:23

Gardenville:

Am not going to comment on what I think of your venture, as this is not remotely the sort of information you were looking for.

For information on Maine, I think the most informed people on this website are WalkinHome, Teej, and Weary, all of whom you could contact privately. You should also contact Steve Longley (207-663-4441) in re. to assistance in crossing the Kennebec River at Caratunk.

For Northern New Hampshire I'd get in touch with the Old Fhart, who has probably spent more time in the White Mountains during wintertime than anyone else here.

Iceman95 is also very knowledgable about New Hampshire in the wintertime.

For Vermont information, I'd contact Minerva/Mrs. Gorp.

As to your other questions, most folks take 21-26 days to hike Maine in Summer/Early Fall. I suspect it'll take you significantly longer to hike Maine in January. (Wolf 23000's 30-day Maine trip is impressive, but it should be pointed out, with no dis-respect whatsoever, that he is 30 years your junior and is in remarkable physical condition. I think 35-45 days is amuch more reasonable expectation).

the_iceman

12-14-2006, 00:36

I have winter camped for years in the Whites and all over New England.

I would not go into the Whites without snowshoes that time of year. I use backcountry skis with climbing skins as well and snow shoes in camp or when the powder is just too deep.

Breaking your own trail in deep snow is exhausting. You will burn calories and drip with sweat and your heart will be close to blowing out of you chest. If you make 1 mile an hour in deep snow you will be cruising. The days are short and water pumps freeze. You go through fuel and water at an alarming rate.

When you stop working that hard the cold sets in like a freight train. You must get sheltered and dry very quickly and get warm fluids in.

I have crawled 1 mile on my hands and knees on Bond Cliff because I could not stand in the wind and I could not survive above tree line. The winds were reported at a steady 65 MPH with gusts of 100 mph.

I have seen Madison Shelter under a snow drift with only part of one wall exposed. The ground nearby was blown clean.

One time I was so exhausted I leaned back on a rock practically reclined waiting for my partner to fix a boot lace or a gaiter. I fell asleep. If I had been alone hopefully I would not have stopped but if I had I would have died right there.

That being said we always have a great time and I have the pictures to prove it. I never leave camp without shelter and tell my wife to never call for rescue. It breaks my heart when one of the White Mountain Rescue Team dies trying to save some one unprepared. I take two days extra food and fuel and keep telling myself, "know your limits" and live to hike another day.

P.S. Bring a backup light and batteries as well. It is really hard to find camp in the dark when the trees are caked with ice and the blazes are hard to see. The ground can be completely level from snow depth with no signs of the trail. Signs to side trails may be under feet of snow.

The Iceman

rafe

12-14-2006, 00:53

It is really hard to find camp in the dark when the trees are caked with ice and the blazes are hard to see. The ground can be completely level from snow depth with no signs of the trail. Signs to side trails may be under feet of snow.

I have next-to-zero experience with winter hiking and camping, but this was one of the first things that struck me, the few times I've tried. Many of the usual visual cues that mark the trail in summer are hidden in winter. Not just the blazes, but the footpath itself. And I'm talking about broad daylight, or what little there is of it, in winter.

I have no fears at all camping/hiking solo in summer or fall. But it soon became clear to me that doing the same in winter could be very, very dangerous. Call me a weenie, I won't mind.

the_iceman

12-14-2006, 10:07

A quick note on low snow conditions:

I was in the Pemi off the Wilderness Trail heading for Desolation Shelter. President’s Day weekend. We were 3 miles from the road and had come in on skis. The 5 of us were coming from different locations so that was our gathering point. We dug a trench shelter in the 2 to 3 feet of snow on the ground and covered it with a tarp.

The next morning we awoke to 23 inches of fresh, deep, hard to walk in, powder. The ground might have been bare the day before, it made no difference. We had around 7 miles to hike, ski, or snow shoe along an old rail road bed for most of the way. We took turns breaking trail. One person had to have on snow shoes to break trail. Another hiker shadowed us for hours letting us do the work. We decided on a lunch break just around a bend to let him catch up. Now we had 6 people to share the load.

Around 2:00 two couples came cruising up our freshly broken trail on skis and asked to pass. We said sure but the trail is not broken. "No Problem, we can handle it" They returned in 5 minutes.

We made the shelter at dusk over 7 miles of relatively flat ground. Our plan was to ascend Mt. Carrigan from the backside the next day. We could not get 100 feet up the trail due to the mini avalanches we were creating.

rafe

12-14-2006, 10:11

Our plan was to ascend Mt. Carrigan from the backside the next day. We could not get 100 feet up the trail due to the mini avalanches we were creating.

The back side of Carrigain is seriously steep, as I recall.

Frosty

12-14-2006, 14:22

I have next-to-zero experience with winter hiking and camping, but this was one of the first things that struck me, the few times I've tried. Many of the usual visual cues that mark the trail in summer are hidden in winter. Not just the blazes, but the footpath itself. And I'm talking about broad daylight, or what little there is of it, in winter.I remember once my wife and I were going to go over the A-Z trail to Zealand. It had snowed two feet the night before and no one had broken trail yet that morning. Even though I'd been on that trail a zillion times, I couldn't find my way. The blazes were all buried in the snow and the low end of the trail is hardwood forest with no visible "corridor" to follow. Eventaully we gave up, but I remember thinking that it was good that it hadn't snowed the NEXT night. We'd be at Zealand trying to find our way back and probably would have had to take the Zealand road and hitch to our car. It's a whole different world when the snow gets deeper than the blazes are high.

woodsy

12-14-2006, 21:12

Started at Rt 4 mid afternoon with a friend one march day, headed for saddleback, on to junior and shelter at poplar ridge. Final destination rt27 beyond sugarloaf.
Started drizzling shortly after starting, snowing pretty good(wet) on saddleback, navigating by cairns when we could find them. In the clouds and snow, headed for saddleback junior...deep snow ,started getting dark, now the visibility is 20 feet. Say, where did those white blazes go, everything is white.
summited junior, not much view in the dark, snow, whiteout. Headed for shelter at poplar ridge, now heavy drizzle and fog, trouble staying on trail, had to backtrack once or twice to relocate trail . We knew the shelter was near, just couldn't see anything and somehow stumbled on to her.Ahhhhh, home for the night. WE were wet, cold and hungry, got food, hot drink and slept.
next day, back at it, down to oberton stream and back up to lone mtn., On to spaulding mtn shelter, I am beat from deep snow and vertical footage but manage to muster enough strength to summit sugarloaf. Can't walk any further, we roll out mattress 's and tobogan down the Narrow Gauge ski trail(world class downhill ski run). It's pretty smooth sailing although a bit too fast down the headwall . My friend hits a rock with his air matress and it deflates with some cussing overheard. Finally reach the lodge and the call is made for a ride.....survived another one, pain included.
Hey Gardenville, I know this is your thread and my post does pertain to winter hiking so hope you don't mind, some others have been posting about their winter trips , couldn't resist telling this tale. Good luck to you whatever you decide to do.

gardenville

12-14-2006, 22:11

Hey Gardenville, I know this is your thread and my post does pertain to winter hiking so hope you don't mind, some others have been posting about their winter trips , couldn't resist telling this tale. Good luck to you whatever you decide to do.

I good winter story is always a good story. I should have named the Thread "Hiking the AT in Maine during the Winter".

woodsy

12-15-2006, 09:31

Wolf - 23000

12-16-2006, 05:30

Hey gardenville,

If your series, here is my two cents. I did a 30-day Maine winter trip in 2005. I'm glad I did it but you are going to have to push your body HARD just to make a couple of miles. Some of the problems I had to deal with include beside the COLD included:

Route Finding. When the trail goes above tree line on a hill top or over a summit, it is often marked with blazes on the ground or rock-piles. Most fair weather hikers don’t think anything about this but when a blanket of snow lay across the trail cover up the blazes or the marker; route finding becomes difficult. The trail marking can also be a problem; a white patch of snow looks very much like a white blaze. Something that helped was my GPS. Prior to starting, I drove around to as many road crossings as I could access to drop off food catch and marked the spot on my GPS. It helped me navigate easier and at the same time reduce my pack weight.

Water. Most of the springs, streams, and ponds are all frozen or worst half frozen. What that means is your going to have to stop and melt snow/ice for water mid-day. If you don’t, you will not be able drink enough safely and become too weak to continue. You will also need to boil water for cooking normal done at night. Keep in mind, and food you cook you will have about 20 minutes to eat it before it will become completely frozen.

Now for the fun part. Several times I had to cross half frozen streams or found myself standing in several feet of water. Walking across bog bridges is interesting when the only thing you see is snow. No marking of any bridge what so ever. It is all under half frozen water and EXTREMELY COLDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!! You don’t have time to change. Keep everything as water tight as possible and keep going; gaiters up secure on your boots. There is only two ways I know to dry something out in the artic cold wilderness, let the water freeze then break off the ice. The second is cold but it works, have some kind of plastic/heavy nylon/gore-tex on first and your wet item over it. You’re using your body heat to warm it up. There is a third, using a black tarp/bag and letting the sun warm it up, but by the time it dry out you would be a frozen stiff from not moving around enough.

Here are some extra tips I can give you:

Cooking. I carried two cooking pots. I did this for several reasons. One pot was on the stove as I began melting snow, the other I used to gather up more snow. The first batch of water was placed inside of my water bottle. After I had enough, I began to cook. To avoid my food from freezing, I cooked half my food in one pot; when finished I eat half my meal while cooking up the second half in the other pot. While eating the second half, I began melting snow to water for the night and the next morning. Two pots helped me use my stove more efficient and help ensure my food was still hot when I was eating it. Food as I said freezes within 20 minutes. And before I forget, leave the metal spoon at home where it belongs.

I needed crampons/snowshoes and ice ax. There were some places I could not get up without crampons. Make sure the crampons and snowshoes that you get to can take off and put back on very quickly.

I had to make a 3 mile detour around Little Wilson ford crossing. It was to cold to be going across a fast current stream several feet deep. If I would have slipped … it would have been interesting.

To get across the Kennebec River, the trail crossing is all choppy ice, NOT SAFE TO CROSS. DO NOT TRY IT!!! A canoe can not get across where the trail crosses. I went down river about a mile. There is a landsite that boater launch from. I saw several people ice fishing there – one who told me the ice was 2 ½ feet thick so I walked across but I have to admit, I was nerves!

That is all I got for now. Hopes this helps,

Wolf

Wolf - 23000

12-16-2006, 06:16

WOLF-23000,
Care to share any of your not so magic moments while out on the winter AT in Maine? Couldn't have all been a walk in the park in fact probably little of it was. Do you know of others who have managed to pull off this endurance trek?

Hey Woodsy,

To my knowledge, I’m the only one to have done a 30-day winter hike of Maine. I know Mr. Clean tried it several years back prior to me, but had to bail out in Rangeley, and resume the trail in March. I’m sure there are others but I can’t think of any.

Some of my most not so magic memory was going through the 100-mile wilderness and my water bottle broke inside my sleeping bag while it – 25 below 0. I was 40 miles into the wilderness going south. I had to choose, do I walk 40 miles back or 60 miles into town of Monson. I had to survive for three additional night before final making it into Monson. I pushed it as far as I could, and even made my longest day 18 miles. I was so tired afterwards. When I final made it into Monson, I stayed at the Shaws (now closed). Pat Shaws, gave me a look that I was a frozen snowman. How right she was.

Coming into the Little Bigelow Shelter at night, I had gotten off the trail but knew I was right by the shelter. Without warning, I found one of the water holes as I stood in about 3 feet of water. I said a few colorful adjectives to the world as to how I was feeling at that moment!

Coming off of the Bigelow, my snowshoe snapped in half. I had one snowshoe that worked the other one I felt like I was post-holing.

Sliding off of elephant mountain near Andover was really fun. It was all one sheet of ice, to steep for snowshoes but not thick enough for crampons. I had a bruise from hell from that one.

I had loads of fun. It was tough but I was glad I did it. It reminded me of leaving Mount Katahdin during my first thru-hike, southbound. I was a silly kid who didn’t know what he was doing … but then I return. I had hiked over 20,000 miles – over 8,000 miles done in winter - 1,300 was complete winter hiking New England. I’m not saying that to brag but it helped me see that was what I was starting off and this is me now because of it. As I said, I’m very glad I did it.

Wolf

woodsy

12-16-2006, 09:18

Wolf, thanks for chimeing in , knew there would be some good meat to your story and was great of you to share...even the not so magic stuff...the stuff that opens peoples eyes to the hardships that long distance winter hiking can bring on. You must have looked like the abominable snowman at times,LOL.

weary

12-16-2006, 10:39

Gardenville,
It is possible to do Maine in 30 days in January. I did it in 2005.
.....winter hiking Maine is no joke but if your set on doing it I'll help you out.
Wolf
P.S. The entire 30 days I saw very little wildlife - 1 moose on a road and a fox on top of Mount Washington.
Mount Washington is not in Maine. If your 30 days went from the summit of Washington to the summit of Katahdin -- that's a bit more than 300 miles. You must be a powerful hiker if you did it alone. Breaking trail in deep snow is physically demanding. I always figured on a minimum party size of four, so we could take turns breaking trail. Climbing Katahdin in winter legally requires a party of four and a leader with winter mountaineering experience. Did you do it by yourself? How did you cross the Kennebec?

AS for the hiker planning a Maine walk this January, it is clear he has no idea what he's likely encounter. Many of the critical roads are unplowed. REsupply will be difficult north of the Kennebec except for Monson. He should not expect many shuttles.

I always found that animal signs were pretty rare in January. Most creatures are holed up and move very little that month. Sightings expand in February and March.

Weary

rafe

12-16-2006, 11:26

AS for the hiker planning a Maine walk this January, it is clear he has no idea what he's likely encounter...

Weary, maybe you know him? He did say, "I have also been a volunteer caretaker for the Maine AT Club." Personally, I'm content that my hikes in Maine haven't involved more than a dusting of snow. ;)

woodsy

12-16-2006, 14:10

" Personally, I'm content that my hikes in Maine haven't involved more than a dusting of snow. ;)

I think the guy was looking for information from people familiar with winter hiking in the NE, not the kind quoted above. This thread is for the hard core AT enthusiasts who are not afraid to brave the wilds in winter:eek: and of course the wannabees;) The threads for the wimbly ones are there, you just need to look a little ,LOL:)

rafe

12-16-2006, 14:28

I think the guy was looking for information from people familiar with winter hiking in the NE, not the kind quoted above.

No prob, Woodsy. I'm mostly here to learn. In an earlier msg I told the OP, "I have nothing to offer except my sincere concern for your safety." The very last msg was directed to Weary, not the OP. Nobody "owns" the thread.

Nean

12-16-2006, 14:53

To my knowledge, I’m the only one to have done a 30-day winter hike of Maine.

I had hiked over 20,000 miles – over 8,000 miles done in winter - 1,300 was complete winter hiking New England. I’m not saying that to brag but it helped me see that was what I was starting off and this is me now because of it. As I said, I’m very glad I did it.

Wolf

Ed Talone probably knows half a dozen hikers who have done it, LOL:D

And I'd like gardenville to take a good look at Wolfs' experience, before he attempted, and during his attempt. Why? Not because there is a great chance you won't make it, but because you have a really good chance of dying and an even better chance of putting people in danger who go out to rescue/recover your body. :-? Not trying to be mean either. Wolf is a one in a million hiker; I know him. I don't know you but from what I've read it would be like playing the lottery and expecting to win. PLEASE consider my advice and start at Springer. Even I have done that in January, and I can say, it will test you but wont be nearly the risk of your life...or others. I wish you well and keep us posted.:)

woodsy

12-16-2006, 15:06

No prob, Woodsy. I'm mostly here to learn. In an earlier msg I told the OP, "I have nothing to offer except my sincere concern for your safety." The very last msg was directed to Weary, not the OP. Nobody "owns" the thread.

No prob TT, just me being an arse, LOL:)

weary

12-16-2006, 15:11

Weary, maybe you know him? He did say, "I have also been a volunteer caretaker for the Maine AT Club." Personally, I'm content that my hikes in Maine haven't involved more than a dusting of snow. ;)
Winter backpacking can be a lot of fun. I did a lot of it 30 years ago. We were among the first groups to explore Baxter Park and Katahdin in winter. With a decent sized party to help break trail, in some ways it is easier than summer. No bugs, no mud, no rocks and roots, no crowds -- just nice smooth inclined planes for a trail.

I managed two or three trips a year between 1970 and 2000, mostly two-to-four nights out. I was always the oldest in the group,

I've gotten busy with my land trusts recently -- plus my winter companions have all gotten too old for such things. I miss it, however. The only real New England wilderness occurs in January and February.

Weary

Old Hillwalker

12-16-2006, 15:36

woodsy

12-16-2006, 17:40

more winter hiking stories, serious yet funny ,Read your heart out here. http://www.haeadventure.com/chptr10.htm

rafe

12-16-2006, 18:22

more winter hiking stories, serious yet funny ,Read your heart out here. http://www.haeadventure.com/chptr10.htm

Quite the story. I read it all the way through before figuring out what HAE stood for. It's quite fitting, really. :rolleyes:

rafe

12-16-2006, 22:45

Woodsy, do you know these HAE guys? This site is a riot. :cool: Warning, Weary... you won't like it at all. You really shoul post it to the "pot smoking weed puffing hippies... " thread (if it hasn't been already.) :banana

the_iceman

12-17-2006, 11:35

It was a number of years ago. My logs and pics are in a box since I am in the middle of moving to Florida so I am not sure of the year. Could by 15 years back now. My brother and I, and occasionally a few friends, have section hiked from Katahdin to the Hudson. We did a lot in the winter and have done numerous back country ski trips in the Whites. I am not talking Tuckerman’s, I am not a big downhiller.

I think winters are a bit milder now but maybe more dangerous since the warmer temps dump freezing rain on you first then turn to snow.

I also had the weird experience of skiing up the Mt. Washington Auto Road and going from snow at lower elevations to freezing rain, then rain about tree line. We stopped there and backtracked to camp. Rain in February on Washington is too scary for me.

weary

12-17-2006, 16:26

Quite the story. I read it all the way through before figuring out what HAE stood for. It's quite fitting, really. :rolleyes:
I found the Old Speck tale both amusing and interesting -- though the difficulty of getting from the summit to the Speck Pond shelter was a bit exaggerated. It brought memories of a February climb a few years earlier. I was in the worst shape I can remember for a winter walk. Remember, I had a desk job.

Anyway the group had to wait for me numerous times and we didn't reach the summit until dusk. The hike down to the shelters was speeded when the last 30 feet was accomplished head first down two feet of snow atop glare ice.

The trip out the next morning with the benefit of daylight was surprisingly easy, as was the descent to Grafton Notch.

Weary

Wolf - 23000

12-18-2006, 17:15

Mount Washington is not in Maine. If your 30 days went from the summit of Washington to the summit of Katahdin -- that's a bit more than 300 miles. You must be a powerful hiker if you did it alone. Breaking trail in deep snow is physically demanding. I always figured on a minimum party size of four, so we could take turns breaking trail. Climbing Katahdin in winter legally requires a party of four and a leader with winter mountaineering experience. Did you do it by yourself? How did you cross the Kennebec?

AS for the hiker planning a Maine walk this January, it is clear he has no idea what he's likely encounter. Many of the critical roads are unplowed. REsupply will be difficult north of the Kennebec except for Monson. He should not expect many shuttles.

I always found that animal signs were pretty rare in January. Most creatures are holed up and move very little that month. Sightings expand in February and March.

Weary

Weary,

It is a little over 300 miles - 324 miles. I averaged about 13 miles a day. That may not sound like much to someone who has never been up there during the winter, but for every one mile I did felt like 3. Breaking snow is VERY physically demanding.

I hiked most of my trip solely - Mount Katahdin I when up with a party for the day. I hike alone mainly because I can never find anyone to go with me and two there were I few times, I really had to push or just bare through some not so great places that even the most of the hard core hikers would have given in. The stream crossings for me were the worst. The moment you take your first step in the ICE water when it below 0 degrees, my feet were so COLD!!! I wanted to just give it up right then and there. I tried not to think about it and yet the only thing I could do is take the next step in and keep going. That was HARD!

I agree with you about animal signs. I saw almost no sign of animal. It was like they all found a nice cave to settle in - sometimes I wish I would have done that myself. I left food catches for myself at road crossing but I did not even dare try pass the Kennebec River or into the 100 mile wilderness.

And to answer your question how did I get across the Kennebec River, I walked. Were the AT crosses, it was all choppy ice – not good for crossing.

http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/6/0/2/0/KennebecATCrossing.JPG (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/6/0/2/0/KennebecATCrossing.JPG)

I went down river about a mile and found several people ice fishing. One of the fisherman told me the ice was 2 ½ feet thick, so I walked across but I have to admit, I was nerves when I did it. I followed the AT the best I could but that wasn’t always possible.

I posted a couple picture of my winter trip on whiteblaze.

Wolf

Jack Tarlin

12-18-2006, 19:44

weary

12-18-2006, 23:30

Summit of Washinton to summit of Katahdin is 332.4 miles.

If one plans 30 days for the trip, this would work out to just over 11 miles a day.

In that most people take only slightly under under 30 days to cover this distance in August and Septemeber, which is the BEST time of the year to hike this section weather-wise, it is my considered opinion that for most folks, it'd be very difficult, if not impossible, to achieve this sort of mileage/progress in January. At best, one would have to have exceptionally favorable weather and one would have very little time off of the Trail. I suspect in January there will be quite a few places where one would be very lucky indeed to get 11 miles in.

This is not being said to discourage anyone, it is merely stating what I know to be true based on my own experience; as well as talking to other hikers, reading their journals, etc.

(I would also not care to ford the Kennebec in January and would only do so if all my personal affairs were very much in order).
Jack has spoken wisely. I doubt if more than one hiker in 100 could average 11 miles a day on a solo AT hike during a typical January in Maine.

A group of strong hikers probably could do it, if all were sharing the trail breaking chores. I've snowshoed close to 20 miles from the nearest plowed road to Chimney Pond in Baxter Park. But that was mostly on trails beat down by snowmobiles. Without a beaten trail, I figure on 6-8 miles in winter, even with the help of a party of four all breaking trail in rotation. Working his way south alone from Abol Bridge in 2000. Mr. Clean managed only three miles some days.

Just finding the trail can be difficult. On our trek through the center of Baxter State Park we came to a tree-less rockly knoll and spent close to a half hour trying to figure out the correct route. The trail seemed to go straight ahead and then disappeared.

I finally backtracked to the base of the knoll and found where summer hikers had broken off branches of bushes and eventually figured out that the trail made a sharp right hand turn. We averaged 11 miles a day on that winter hike, but I was nearly 40 years younger then and others were mostly in their 20s.

It snowed heavily during the night and we faced two feet of fresh snow for the 10 mile leg between Russell Pond and Roaring Brook. I hate snowmobiles, but I kinda welcomed the sight of four rangers snowmobiling in to greet us that morning, leaving behind a well broken trail through the heavy snow.

Weary

gardenville

01-07-2007, 20:51

rafe

01-07-2007, 20:58

The snow line is somewhere between Andover and Rangeley/Stratton. You're right, it could change. Between Monson and Abol Bridge, opportunities for "bailing" are rare.

woodsy

01-07-2007, 22:07

http://www.outdoors.org/recreation/tripplanner/go/backcountry-weather.cfm

I know this is NH, but the elevations still require traction devices

weary

01-07-2007, 22:49

http://www.outdoors.org/recreation/tripplanner/go/backcountry-weather.cfm

I know this is NH, but the elevations still require traction devices
"Traction devices" mean full crampons, an ice ax. and the ability and knowledge to use them.

Keep in mind that snow is not always a deterrent. It smooths and transforms the rocks, and the minor PUDS to smooth incline planes. Open winters as we are experiencing now can both ease and complicate a winter traverse of Maine. And conditions can change overnight for those not prepared for the full range of winter in Maine.

Weary

4eyedbuzzard

01-07-2007, 23:04

My biggest concern would be the "I" part. Only one other hiker on this forum, wolf23000, has talked about doing something akin to this ALONE in winter. You fall in any one of hundreds of "bad" places and get injured, and you are quite likely going to die of hypothermia - if the fall itself doesn't kill you. Your choice though. As you claim to know these mountains you must also then understand the extreme risk you are taking hiking this section(arguably the most severe on the AT) alone in winter.

There was some heavy rime icing on the summit of Mt Washington today according to the observatory report, with some snow and freezing rain on the way for tomorrow and Tuesday along with high winds. Overall temps are still mild, but that can change very quickly up here. I'll bet we have some real winter weather coming by late January.

This weeks forecast is for colder but still above average temperatures with rain next weekend. Probably a good chance of that being freezing rain/snow at higher elevations. No way I would hike through the Mahoosucs, Bigelows, etc. in those conditions. Good luck.

the_iceman

01-08-2007, 08:57

This just in from AccuWeather:
(State College, PA) - The stretch of unseasonable warmth across the East will peak this weekend, challenging a number of record high temperatures. By the middle of next week, temperatures in the East will briefly return to seasonable levels before warming again, while a true taste of winter's wrath pushes into the Northwest.

Full Story:
http://wwwa.accuweather.com/news-top-headline.asp?partner=accuweather&traveler=0&date=2007-01-04

rafe

01-08-2007, 09:04

Beautiful hiking weather this weekend in MA, but as of Monday 8 AM, it's 40 degrees and raining hard. That's my least favorite weather. I'd much rather have snow. Weather in Bethel, ME (near Grafton Notch) is much the same, only a bit colder.

woodsy

01-08-2007, 09:35

[quote=gardenville I am sitting here in Texas

That may be a good thing cause things will only be going downhill
from here. Heard of the "Calm before the Storm?

woodsy

01-10-2007, 16:07

Can we revisit this question? In light of the warm weather in NH and Maine so far thid year how does an AT hike from the NH line to Baxter now look? I am sitting here in Texas and it was colder here last week than a few places in Maine.

I know weather can change but that is what a "bail out" is for.

You can be glad you are not out in the Maine Mountains today Gardenville,
It's some cold with that NW wind in the air. Frost bite city if you were to be out on a mountain top above tree line. Survival of the fittest for sure.

woodsy

01-11-2007, 00:18

Dang! Just stepped out and bout froze my britches off. It's gotta be -10 deg. to -20 F up on the mountain with the windchill and all. :eek:
Finally getting a chance to burn some of that Oak in the woodstove;)

Anyone been backpacing lately?:cool:

You could say it has stiffened up a bit OUT THERE!

woodsy

01-11-2007, 00:20

Anyone been backpacing lately?:cool:

Oops,I think I meant backpacking,lol

bzmnboy

01-11-2007, 04:12

A - Where a person now lives says nothing about where that person may have lived at another time of his or her life. I spent 28 years as an Army Infantryman and have lived in a few cold places. I am not at new-be at hiking / backpacking in cold weather. In my world you don't live to be 66 by being foolish.
Infantry in the army and solo backpacking have little in common.

Q - Have you climbed any hills over 4000 feet, in New England, in winter?
A - Yes, Mt Jefferson - Mt Washington and others several times in winter.
Climbing a few mountains differs slightly from being in the wilderness for an extended duration

Q - Have you ever spent a night on one of those hills, out of doors, in winter?
A - Yes, But I don't camp above treeline. Normally used the Perch when hiking on that end of the Mt Washington area.
Please Clarify...I certainly hope it was more then "a" night

Q - Please understand. People die on these mountains, every year. Smart people. People who think they're smarter than the mountains. There's a plaque on the wall of the AMC lodge at Pinkham Notch. I don't think you want your name on it. Or do you?
A - I know how easy it is to die on or near Mt Washington. One March long ago I was up there the season 5 people died. I have also been a volunteer caretaker for the Maine AT Club one summer at the old Avery Shelter in August and it snowed one night.
Neither of these explanations fit the question. I have been on plenty of mountains where people were killed that very season, yet I still can not fathom how easy it would be for me to die there.

As you can there are a couple of things that worry me here. Now I have done some winter backpacking in New England, but more in my current residence, Montana, and I know a bit about winter weather, cold temps, etc. I know that storms are often strong and quick and they can dump a lot of snow. How will you deal with this alone? I am very skeptical of this idea and would like to hear more specifics and logistics of how you would go about completing this.
-Geoffrey

Flower lady

01-11-2007, 08:23

Hellow, I live in Maine and right now its very cold, we do camp out but you need to really know what winter camping is all about, We Ice fish and camp, the ice this year isn't real good, Realy need to keep dry, things can get bad fast so be careful. Flower lady

the_iceman

01-11-2007, 18:41

On the new today in Boston 1/11/06

2 hikers (supposedly experienced) in their 50's got disoriented in a sudden snow storm with white-out conditions yesterday and dialed 911. A search was mounted and they were found today. They survived okay because they were well prepared and had a sleeping bag, etc.

So why did they call in a rescue???

Wolf - 23000

01-11-2007, 19:29

[QUOTE=4eyedbuzzard;298965]My biggest concern would be the "I" part. Only one other hiker on this forum, wolf23000, has talked about doing something akin to this ALONE in winter. You fall in any one of hundreds of "bad" places and get injured, and you are quite likely going to die of hypothermia - if the fall itself doesn't kill you. Your choice though. As you claim to know these mountains you must also then understand the extreme risk you are taking hiking this section(arguably the most severe on the AT) alone in winter.

buzzard,

Winter hiking Maine is dangerous, yes but it makes little different if you're hiking alone or with someone and in some cases it can be even more dangerous hiking with someone vs hiking alone. I've been in some very bad spots that I real needed to pull a few rabbits out of the hat, if I had someone with me, unless they knew what they were doing they would be dead!!!

Wolf

rafe

01-11-2007, 19:35

Winter hiking Maine is dangerous, yes but it makes little different if you're hiking alone or with someone and in some cases it can be even more dangerous hiking with someone vs hiking alone. I've been in some very bad spots that I real needed to pull a few rabbits out of the hat, if I had someone with me, unless they knew what they were doing they would be dead!!!

Are you saying you feel safer hiking alone, or that you feel your (hypothetical) partner just can't possibly be as skilled or resourceful as you, and you'd actually be burdened by the presence of a partner?

woodsy

01-11-2007, 20:15

Sounds to me like he's trying to say it's enough trouble looking out for #1, nevermind #2.
There is a STORM brewing as we speak, expected to hit Monday full force and dumping a good bit of snow, cooooold too!

Wolf - 23000

01-14-2007, 18:35

Are you saying you feel safer hiking alone, or that you feel your (hypothetical) partner just can't possibly be as skilled or resourceful as you, and you'd actually be burdened by the presence of a partner?

Winter hiking Maine or any of the New England is not a joke. There are only a small handful of hikers that I would feel safe going with. I'm not trying to put anyone down by that but the truth is most thru hikers don't have the skills to be out there during that time of year. To take someone put both hikers at risk. So yes, I feel it is safer going alone. I'm sure we've all seen the movie, Walking into thin air. Those were some of the best climbers in the world. I think we would all agree if they did not have some inexperance members of their team they would be alive today.

If something did happen, what is their partner going to be able to do? Not much. I like to see some try carrying another person out. In the end it up to you, how much drive do you have to keep going during the good times and the bad.

Wolf

Jack Tarlin

01-14-2007, 18:58

Gardenville:

We are indeed having warm weather in the Northeast right now, but this has been a most unusual year: It isn't always like this.

And even in this "warm" winter, you should know that as I write this, it's eighteen degrees at the top of Mt. Washington with 45 mph winds, with the wind chill making it at least five degrees below zero. And it'll be much colder later tonight. And remember.....they're having a "warm" winter up there!

The fact that we're having an unusual winter here doesn't really mean much. I agree with you the folks who are trying to tell you that New England weather in the winter is nothing to take lightly.

4eyedbuzzard

01-14-2007, 20:48

buzzard,

Winter hiking Maine is dangerous, yes but it makes little different if you're hiking alone or with someone and in some cases it can be even more dangerous hiking with someone vs hiking alone. I've been in some very bad spots that I real needed to pull a few rabbits out of the hat, if I had someone with me, unless they knew what they were doing they would be dead!!!

Wolf

Wolf, you seem from your sidebar to have extensive backcountry experience - and far more than I, but I would still respectfully disagree on anyone's decision to hike the NH or ME sections alone in winter, and I can guarantee I'm not the first to tell you this. To address your rationale: One, if your partners don't know what they were doing they have no business being out there in the first place. This being a given in my book, I disagree with the concept of anyone hiking in any mountainous terrain alone in winter. In warmer months there are usually plenty of others on the trail on a daily basis to help an injured solo hiker. In winter that just isn't the case. Having an experienced partner(s) dramatically increases the chance of a successful rescue should an accident occur.

We all have different opinions on acceptable levels of risk. Hiking in mountainous terrain, alone in remote areas, in winter conditions simply crosses my line and certainly that of NPS, NFS, ATC, and others.

ed bell

01-14-2007, 20:58

Can we revisit this question? In light of the warm weather in NH and Maine so far thid year how does an AT hike from the NH line to Baxter now look? I am sitting here in Texas and it was colder here last week than a few places in Maine.

I know weather can change but that is what a "bail out" is for.If you would have started at the first of the year, you could have taken advantage of the mild early winter in the NE for two weeks. Maybe you were more curious than serious. The mild window is slamming shut this week.http://www.erh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick.php?site=gyx&FcstType=text&MapType=3&site=gyx&CiTemplate=1&map.x=287&map.y=33

warren doyle

01-15-2007, 12:23

Wolf, experienced northern New England AT winter walker, climbed Katahdin with us via the Abol Trail. It is nine miles each way (a doable 18-mile day). We usualy start near Abol Bridge around 3am. Cross-country ski in on the old entrance road (next to Abol Pond/Stream) to the perimeter road; ski to Abol CG; walk/snowshoe up to the base of the Abol Slide; climb (with/without crampons depending on the snow/ice conditions) up to the summit by 11am-noon; carefully descend the same route; have a fine cross-country ski out usually; get to our car right at dusk or slightly thereafter; drive to Millinocket and have supper at the Schoodic (sp.?) Inn.
I have done a winter climb of Katahdin this way about twenty times.

the_iceman

01-24-2007, 09:03

To do A "LEGAL" winter climb of Katadhin you need permits, equipment, and a team. Check State Park rules and regs. No solo's permitted.

ferryman

01-24-2007, 14:44

There are lots of possibilities to get inside Baxter Park during the winter season. Cabin rentals at Daisey and Kidney ponds for $30.00 per person per night. That does not include heat or water but there are water sources and firewood available at the campsites. For the past 5 years, I have gone with a group of tele/xc skiers to explore other parts of Baxter. Then ,of course, there is the option to apply for permits to summit Katahdin during the winter climbing season. When I summitted Pamola Peak Back in 78, I believe you needed six climbing partners with two persons certified as EMT's. You also were to have a rescue team (Acadia Rescue) available should the need arise. Last March, I was at Katahdin Stream Falls around 11am with clear skies and light winds when the idea hit me that I could bag Pamola Peak and return to base before dark. Thirty years ago, I would have jumped at the bit, but now, the part about being a reponsible outdoorsperson with 26 years as a professional hiking and whitewater rafting Outfitter, brought me to my reasonable senses. I have little tolerance for those individuals who put others, including other members of the hiking party, other users of the Park and especially Park Rangers, who willl have to "jump into the frying pan" to save your life because you got this "No Rules" philosophy about the outdoors. Certainly, a hike could have been possible thru Maine in December thru mid-january, but now zero readings are daily and the snow pack is starting to pile up. Hey! anything is possible with enough patience! Best of Luck to all 2007 thru-hikers! See ya'll at the river, Steve Longley

warren doyle

01-24-2007, 16:07

In my opinion:

A responsible outdoors professional, with their skills and experience, has to still genuflect to 'liability' and man-made 'rules and regulations' in order to survive in the outdoor adventure industry.

A responsible outdoors folkperson can, should, and will freely move with the same skills and experience, in order to survive, honor and celebrate the wilderness* of the mind, heart and place.
(*no rules - no rescue)

Lone Wolf

01-24-2007, 16:10

rafe

01-24-2007, 16:12

W T F is a "folkperson?"

Fannypack

01-24-2007, 16:19

I agree. But "the trinity" will be here soon and get this thread shut down too.:)who or what is "the trinity"???

emerald

01-24-2007, 16:20

Lone Wolf

01-24-2007, 16:21

who or what is "the trinity"???

Jack, TJ and Old Fart. The main Doyle haters/obsessors.:)

warren doyle

01-24-2007, 16:25

Alligator

01-24-2007, 16:28

warren doyle

01-24-2007, 16:30

Q: "warren, could someone conceivably put themself on their own internegator list? Just curious."

A: 1) I don't have an answer to that one. However, I do believe that you need two entities to have conception.

2) Who was it that said "Internegation is in the eyes of the beholder"?

rafe

01-24-2007, 16:32

A folkperson is an intrinsically motivated, passionate and knowledgeable individual who is not interested in earning their livelihood through the 'practice' of one of their passions (i.e. they choose to be accountable only to themselves). This 'practice' is more important than the 'product'.

It doesn't sound like a "folksperson" is or should be a spokesperson since he or she ultimately bears no responsibility for their words or any "product."

emerald

01-24-2007, 16:44

Who was it that said "Internegation is in the eyes of the beholder"?

Don't know, but you recently stated that bait is in the eyes of the beholder. I'm convinced that's so. Taking it is optional and those who choose to take it, must beware the hook.

It just occurred to me that a question mark is shaped like a hook, but lacks a barb. Not sure if that's significant in any way whatsoever.

Fannypack

01-24-2007, 17:07

who or what is "the trinity"???

Jack, TJ and Old Fart. The main Doyle haters/obsessors.:)
If they are the trinity then what are u (Lone Wolf)?

Are u the "truth detector"?

or the "unbiased one"?

or the "jackal"?

or the "Doyle lover/mentee (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mentee)"?

or the "instigator"?

Heater

01-24-2007, 17:23

who or what is "the trinity"???

pizza, beer and cigs.

rafe

01-24-2007, 17:38

pizza, beer and cigs.

sex 'n drugs 'n rock 'n roll. or is that four?

The Old Fhart

01-24-2007, 17:49

WD-"A responsible outdoors folkperson can, should, and will freely move with the same skills and experience, in order to survive, honor and celebrate the wilderness* of the mind, heart and place. (*no rules - no rescue)" Warren, could you give us an example of what would happen when some irresponsible, inexperienced, egocentric 'folkperson' breaks the laws/rules and nearly kills someone with their stupidity and has to be rescued?

WD-"My friend Steve and I made a winter climb of Katahdin without permission. Two rangers following our snowshoe tracks found us as we were finishing our descent. We were given citations for illegal winter climbing. Our fines were to be $20. We both pleaded guilty under the rules and regulations of Baxter State Park, but not guilty in the eyes of Katahdin and, more importantly, in our consciences. The judge suspended Steve's fine since he was in the hospital recuperating from a fall he had on the descent."

:D

Wolf - 23000

01-24-2007, 19:32

Warren, could you give us an example of what would happen when some irresponsible, inexperienced, egocentric 'folkperson' breaks the laws/rules and nearly kills someone with their stupidity and has to be rescued?
:D

Old Fhart,

That easy, they could die and could also put others at risk at the same time. That is why I'm firmly believe, if I go out there then it is my respondibility to get my butt out safely. I do not believe others should risk their lives to come get someone out of the wilderness.

I've been in some very bad storms, been in some hairly spots and have been extremely cold. My point is I've been there where the only thing that save me was my own will and skills and still stand by my statement that, it is up to all of us, when we enter the wilderness, then we should be expected to get our own butts out. Wild things happen, we need to be prepared for it.

Wolf

The Old Fhart

01-24-2007, 19:59

Wolf - 23000-"That is why I'm firmly believe, if I go out there then it is my respondibility to get my butt out safely. I do not believe others should risk their lives to come get someone out of the wilderness."What you 'believe' and the reality of the real world are two diametrically opposed things. Any person with any experience (or intelligence) knows your ‘beliefs’ aren’t the way it works. If you go out and get into trouble, SAR will eventually come and get you. You can’t seriously tell anyone that you really believe that if you are reported lost or injured in the wild that you believe people will just leave you there-that is pure BS.

What it comes down to is you really realize if you have a problem by hiking alone in extreme conditions, you will be putting others at risk. What you mean to say is that you just don’t care about their safety. You are more interested in your own ego-gratification that common sense or the safety of others.

The few places where they might leave your lifeless body to become one with nature are mountains like Everest.

Jack Tarlin

01-24-2007, 20:15

4eyedbuzzard

01-24-2007, 20:18

The few places where they might leave your lifeless body to become one with nature are mountains like Everest.

A most interesting article on K2 sending its victims back down the glacier. Kind of gruesome.:)

http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200311/200311_mountains_1.html

Fannypack

01-24-2007, 20:27

I was gonna stay away from this one, mainly to prove Wolf wrong, but I have to make one quick comment:

Does anyone SERIOUSLY believe Warren would turn down a rescue if he was sick/injured/lost? Does anyone actually for one minute believe this? Does anyone really think this alleged "folkperson" would insist that he be left accountable to himself, and would therefore demand to be abandoned, ignored, and left to die?

Whatta complete load of bull****.
u said u were going to stay away from this one?????

Jack, u need to give it a break and stop attacking WD.. Deal with facts and not personalities....

Personal attacks are NOT necessary to make your post. We all know u don't like as well as disagree with Warren on most topics but why do u need to keep telling us about it. It is getting old and tiring (post after post).

Another day in paradise on WB.

Lone Wolf

01-24-2007, 20:33

u said u were going to stay away from this one?????

Jack, u need to give it a break and stop attacking WD.. Deal with facts and not personality

he's part of the hateful trinity. he can't stay away.

ed bell

01-24-2007, 20:35

I read Wolf - 23000's post as a warning. I take his posts as being comments on his own personal beliefs and abilities. As far as I can tell, Wolf - 23000 is not participating here to advocate anything or advance an agenda. He is here to relate his experiences. I would be cautious to assume otherwise.

Jack Tarlin

01-24-2007, 20:42

Fannypack:

Calm down. You'll give yourself an embolism or something.

Mentioning that someone's post is completely FOS is not a personal attack; it is merely suggesting that what the person has posted is silly.

But according to you and several others, my merely responding to something Mr. Doyle has said is "a personal attack."

Not so.

When he recently advocated (for around the hundredth thime) that hikers ford the Kennebec River despite the known risks of doing so, I didn't attack him personally, but I instead suggested that this was lousy advice, it was reckless and dangerous counsel, that people more knowledgable about the River vehemently disagreed with his suggestions, and that I thought it wasn't the sort of advice that a prudent Trail "educator" would offer.

Hardly a personal attack.

And here in this post, I'm not attacking him or anyone else personally.....I'm merely saying that I don't believe for a minute that he'd turn down a rescue if he needed one, and would prefer to die in the woods. I think his stating otherwise was nonsense.

I'm sorry you can't distinguish between disagreeing with someone and an
"attack."

As long as Mr. Doyle comes to a public website and says questionable or fooish things, well people have a right to comment on them. And that includes me, Fannypack, OK?

Oh, and Wolf: For all your sanctimonious hand-wringing, tell me just ONE hateful thing in this post.

Good luck, cuz there isn't one.

Lone Wolf

01-24-2007, 20:44

Jack Tarlin

01-24-2007, 20:52

Repeat: What was in the post that's "hateful" , Wolf?

Your failure to address this doesn't say much about your use of the word to describe my posts, eh?

Either tell us what I just said that you felt was "hateful", and if you can't, well maybe YOU should take some of your advice, i.e. something about shutting T F U.

But I doubt you're capable of it. See ya. :D

Lone Wolf

01-24-2007, 20:57

shut up jack. same ol crap.:rolleyes:

Gray Blazer

01-24-2007, 20:58

Que tal, ya'll. One word for you guys.....Rodney King! Peace out. Don't close this thread. I want to read about winter stats.

4eyedbuzzard

01-24-2007, 21:10

Back on subject for a moment - sorry to interupt the er, ah discussion - but has anyone heard from gardenville? His last post on WB was on Jan 7.

Can we revisit this question? In light of the warm weather in NH and Maine so far thid year how does an AT hike from the NH line to Baxter now look? I am sitting here in Texas and it was colder here last week than a few places in Maine.

I know weather can change but that is what a "bail out" is for.

I am hoping he is just lurking or chose to start NOBO at Springer or do some other modified flipflop. The last couple of weeks would not have been a good time to be hiking NOBO from the NH/ME line.

woodsy

01-24-2007, 22:46

[quote=4eyedbuzzard The last couple of weeks would not have been a good time to be hiking NOBO from the NH/ME line.[/quote]

Yeah you're not kidding, I've been hunkered down since the New Year arrived.
Missed a few good days to be out on the trail but the way it's been, you've got to be moving, in the bag or stokin a fire trying to stay warm out there.
Better days are on the horizon;)

Wolf - 23000

01-25-2007, 01:49

What you 'believe' and the reality of the real world are two diametrically opposed things. Any person with any experience (or intelligence) knows your ‘beliefs’ aren’t the way it works. If you go out and get into trouble, SAR will eventually come and get you. You can’t seriously tell anyone that you really believe that if you are reported lost or injured in the wild that you believe people will just leave you there-that is pure BS.

What it comes down to is you really realize if you have a problem by hiking alone in extreme conditions, you will be putting others at risk. What you mean to say is that you just don’t care about their safety. You are more interested in your own ego-gratification that common sense or the safety of others.

The few places where they might leave your lifeless body to become one with nature are mountains like Everest.

As you know, I never said SAR would not come out looking if I was reported missing/in trouble. And thank you for making up your own version just to try to prove your point. Your a credit BS. Please take your bawl.

What I will say is all my friends know my wishes and have respected them. I normal don't tell people were I will be or when making next to impossible to know if I'm running behind or right on schedule. It causes less head aches that way.

As for me not carrying about the lives of the SAR, well I would suggest you need a new roll of tolet paper ... because your full of SH1T!!! I straight out don't want anyone to come after me. It's my job to get my own butt out! What put people live in dangerous postion is when people make a mountain out of a molehill.

I don't suggest anyone try winter hiking New England unless they real know what they are doing and are prepared for the danger it involves.

Wolf

Mags

01-25-2007, 03:14

W T F is a "folkperson?"

Couldn't tell you in relation to hiking...

But, in Boulder, a folk person usually goes to the Shambala center, drinks wheatgrass juice, listens to Enya and drives a Prius. :)

/atheist, brew pub-beer drinking, listens to Emmylou Harris and now drives a light pickup truck.

Pokey2006

01-25-2007, 04:46

[quote=icemanboston;299056]This just in from AccuWeather:
(State College, PA) - The stretch of unseasonable warmth across the East will peak this weekend, challenging a number of record high temperatures. By the middle of next week, temperatures in the East will briefly return to seasonable levels before warming again, while a true taste of winter's wrath pushes into the Northwest.

Has anyone mentioned that the winter of 1978 was allegedly like this year's winter in New England? I say allegedly because I wasn't here, but I've heard....apparently, it started out real nice and mild -- warm, even -- and does anyone know how it ended? Can anyone say Blizzard of '78?

Sorry, not to interrupt the ranting and raving...but I'm not sure if anyone brought up that particularly excellent example of how strange the weather in New England can be.

There's still plenty of time ahead for winter to hit us big time. I'm truly afraid of what February might bring...

woodsy

01-25-2007, 08:41

[quote=Pokey2006

Has anyone mentioned that the winter of 1978 was allegedly like this year's winter in New England? I say allegedly because I wasn't here, but I've heard....apparently, it started out real nice and mild -- warm, even -- and does anyone know how it ended? Can anyone say Blizzard of '78?

Sorry, not to interrupt the ranting and raving...but I'm not sure if anyone brought up that particularly excellent example of how strange the weather in New England can be.

There's still plenty of time ahead for winter to hit us big time. I'm truly afraid of what February might bring...[/quote]

Can't say as I remember all the details of 78 blizzard but it was only 3-4 years ago here in ME that we had snow 3'-4' deep everywhere in central and western ME.
February is traditionally the snowiest month in these parts with January being the coldest.
The sun's radiation(when shining) is increasing daily so the longer and brighter days are making life a bit more bearable for us afflicted with the dreaded CABIN FEVER
I know, didn't tell you anything you didn't already know;)

The Old Fhart

01-25-2007, 11:24

Wolf23000-"As you know, I never said SAR would not come out looking if I was reported missing/in trouble. And thank you for making up your own version just to try to prove your point. Your a credit BS. Please take your bawl."

First, I’d prefer that you write in English sentences rather than stringing random words together.

What you have claimed is that you are a superhuman hiker and you hike alone because anyone else would just slow you down or you’d end up babysitting them.

“-I hike alone mainly because I can never find anyone to go with me and two there were I few times, I really had to push or just bare through some not so great places that even the most of the hard core hikers would have given in.“
“-To take someone [else would be to] put both hikers at risk. So yes, I feel it is safer going alone.” Wow, you are a super hiker, and so considerate of all the other lesser hiker! At least I’m glad you have a sliver of sense and don’t want to put some other ‘inferior’ hiker in the same dangerous position you charge blindly into!

However, what you have written paints an entirely different picture. What we get is someone who breaks all the safety rules, has near tragic ‘accidents’ yet claims he is invincible. You say “I don't suggest anyone try winter hiking New England unless they real know what they are doing and are prepared for the danger it involves" but you obviously go out totally unprepared and routinely have accidents and problems that could easily cost you your life. For example:

-I did it alone. A normal thru-hiker does not have knowledge to complete such a hike.
-Several times I had to cross half frozen streams or found myself standing in several feet of water.
-Some of my most not so magic memory was going through the 100-mile wilderness and my water bottle broke inside my sleeping bag while it – 25 below 0. I was 40 miles into the wilderness going south. I had to choose, do I walk 40 miles back or 60 miles into town of Monson. I had to survive for three additional night before final making it into Monson. I pushed it as far as I could, and even made my longest day 18 miles. I was so tired afterwards. When I final made it into Monson, I stayed at the Shaws (now closed). Pat Shaws, gave me a look that I was a frozen snowman. How right she was.
-Without warning, I found one of the water holes as I stood in about 3 feet of water.
-Coming off of the Bigelow, my snowshoe snapped in half.
-I had a bruise from hell from that one.
-The moment you take your first step in the ICE water when it below 0 degrees, my feet were so COLD!!! I wanted to just give it up right then and there. I tried not to think about it and yet the only thing I could do is take the next step in and keep going. When you were wading through that icy stream, if the numbness had worked its way down to your feet, you could easily have slipped and drowned, or died from hypothermia (see my article on hypothermia in the WhiteBlaze article section).

Your claim to be a super hiker and therefore won’t have problems yet I’m sure the climbers who do K2 or Everest are an order of magnitude superior to you in knowledge, experience, and equipment yet how many of them have died? Despite you repeating your mantra of: “As for me not carrying about the lives of the SAR, well I would suggest you need a new roll of tolet[sic] paper ... because your[sic] full of SH1T!!! I straight out don't want anyone to come after me. It's my job to get my own butt out! What put[s] people live in dangerous postion[sic] is when people make a mountain out of a molehill.” Again, this may happen in your imaginary world but that’s not the way it works in the real world. That you ‘want’ to be left to decay in the wild isn’t going to happen, and no one can take you seriously when you say you believe it either.

So when you so humorously say: “My point is [that] I've been there where the only thing that save[d] me was my own will and skills and (I) still stand by my statement that, it is up to all of us, when we enter the wilderness, then[sic that] we should be expected to get our own butts out. Wild things happen, we need to be prepared for it.“ , no one finds that macho ego BS believable, save all your TP for yourself.:D

woodsy

01-25-2007, 12:42

First, I’d prefer that you write in English sentences rather than stringing random words together.

What you have claimed is that you are a superhuman hiker and you hike alone because anyone else would just slow you down or you’d end up babysitting them.
Wow, you are a super hiker, and so considerate of all the other lesser hiker! At least I’m glad you have a sliver of sense and don’t want to put some other ‘inferior’ hiker in the same dangerous position you charge blindly into!

However, what you have written paints an entirely different picture. What we get is someone who breaks all the safety rules, has near tragic ‘accidents’ yet claims he is invincible. You say “I don't suggest anyone try winter hiking New England unless they real know what they are doing and are prepared for the danger it involves" but you obviously go out totally unprepared and routinely have accidents and problems that could easily cost you your life. For example:
When you were wading through that icy stream, if the numbness had worked its way down to your feet, you could easily have slipped and drowned, or died from hypothermia (see my article on hypothermia in the WhiteBlaze article section).

Your claim to be a super hiker and therefore won’t have problems yet I’m sure the climbers who do K2 or Everest are an order of magnitude superior to you in knowledge, experience, and equipment yet how many of them have died? Despite you repeating your mantra of: “As for me not carrying about the lives of the SAR, well I would suggest you need a new roll of tolet[sic] paper ... because your[sic] full of SH1T!!! I straight out don't want anyone to come after me. It's my job to get my own butt out! What put[s] people live in dangerous postion[sic] is when people make a mountain out of a molehill.” Again, this may happen in your imaginary world but that’s not the way it works in the real world. That you ‘want’ to be left to decay in the wild isn’t going to happen, and no one can take you seriously when you say you believe it either.

So when you so humorously say: “My point is [that] I've been there where the only thing that save[d] me was my own will and skills and (I) still stand by my statement that, it is up to all of us, when we enter the wilderness, then[sic that] we should be expected to get our own butts out. Wild things happen, we need to be prepared for it.“ , no one finds that macho ego BS believable, save all your TP for yourself.:D

In the future Old Fhart, could you rant and rave through a PM instead of dragging everyone here through this whole bunch-o-bull*****. Hike your own hike and let others do the same. Thanks:)

The Old Fhart

01-25-2007, 13:11

Woodsy-"In the future Old Fhart, could you rant and rave through a PM instead of dragging everyone here through this whole bunch-o-bull*****. Hike your own hike and let others do the same. Thanks"I'd gladly handle this through a PM if the BS presented by others was also not posted here. I notice that you don't disagree with what I've said through a PM but also choose to post your BS here!:-?

I'm sorry if responding to a post directed at me has so offended your sensitive nature. Please feel free to follow your own advise. :D

4eyedbuzzard

01-25-2007, 13:42

In the future Old Fhart, could you rant and rave through a PM instead of dragging everyone here through this whole bunch-o-bull*****. Hike your own hike and let others do the same. Thanks:)

What? And deprive the rest of us from all this free entertainment?:D

Wolf - 23000

01-25-2007, 13:42

Old fart, are you Bill Bryson. Come on you can tell us. You both write made up stories and when someone is actually able to do some of the things you consider impossible, you call them super human or invincible. I have never made any such claim in any of my post. And just like in the summer, there are risk going in the wilderness. The different is I accept the risk while your sorry butt would be praying someone comes out after you risking their safety. It not a macho ego, it is just excepting the wilderness as just that – the wilderness. Things happen. And several hikers have known I was out there during some very bad storms.

“However, what you have written paints an entirely different picture. What we get is someone who breaks all the safety rules, has near tragic ‘accidents’ yet claims he is invincible. You say “I don't suggest anyone try winter hiking New England unless they real know what they are doing and are prepared for the danger it involves" but you obviously go out totally unprepared and routinely have accidents and problems that could easily cost you your life.”

First I don’t go out unprepared. I carry everything I need that has kept me a live while your sorry butt is in the house. My Maine winter trip I was out there for a month, winter hiking VT/NH I was out for 5 weeks (prior to my current job). It is a different environment after you get pass the popular winter areas. It a little difficult to see bog bridges while their several feet under snow hint why I was in several feet of water. It is not being unprepared. I just the way things happen and yes that the risk of being out there. I can only warn hikers of some of the dangers but everyone is a big girl/boy. They make their own choice to be out there or not.

“Your claim to be a super hiker and therefore won’t have problems yet I’m sure the climbers who do K2 or Everest are an order of magnitude superior to you in knowledge, experience, and equipment yet how many of them have died?”

Does a movie called, “Walking into Thin Air” ring a bell. Let me refresh your memory. The guides took rookies climbers up a mountain they had no business on. It cost the guides and some of their clients their lives. They were all with someone, yet they came out dead. The guides do have more experience then myself climbing, knowledge of equipment I can hold my own. I may not like talking about equipment much but I know my stuff.

You sure you won’t use TP, your eyes really are BROWN with the BS you been spreading around.

Wolf

The Old Fhart

01-25-2007, 14:35

Let me make this real simple so you might get it the third time around.

Wolf - 23000…when someone is actually able to do some of the things you consider impossible.. read this slowly so it sinks in: I never said what you did was impossible, just extremely stupid, get the difference? The fact that you would think I thought your walks in the woods impossible just goes to show what you think of your abilities compared to the ability of all other hikers.

Wolf - 23000-The different is I accept the risk while your sorry butt would be praying someone comes out after you risking their safety.
If you only knew how humorous that statement is!:D You still just don’t get it, do you? The point is that someone would come out to get anyone in trouble, even you. While you seem to want prove how great you are by belittling others and want to emulate Alexander SuperTramp and become one with nature, any sane person only takes reasonable and calculated risks.

Wolf - 23000-I carry everything I need that has kept me a live while your sorry butt is in the house. A farcical statement that can only be called ignorant because you know nothing about what my experience is. But then again, I’d expect no more from you.:rolleyes:

Wolf - 23000-It a little difficult to see bog bridges while their several feet under snow,blah, blah, blah. Please don’t bore me with this dribble. I just wish there were trails some of the places I’ve gone in winter, you aren’t impressing me in the least.

Just admit that you go out to please yourself and it has nothing to do with your safety, or the safety of others, and quit presenting your mundane hikes as epic adventures that only the mighty Wolf can do. Give it a rest.

Frosty

01-25-2007, 14:50

I really enjoy a good discussion, when someone posts some bit of information, and someone else's posts different infromation and opinions on the same topic.

In another thread, someone had thoughts on the lost hiker. I had other thoughts. 4eyedbuzzard disagreed with some of what I said and gave what he thought, and the discussion went on. No one called anyone else names, no one tried to negate any one else's opinions/beliefs/whatever. Just a flow of information back and forth.

So why do some threads degenerate into picking apart someone else's posts and ridiculing the other person instead of talking about the topic?

Here we arguably have the two most experienced and knowledgable winter hikers on WB, who could provide us with tons of information, and all we get is:
- you're full of crap
- no, you are
- you're ignorant
- you're full of crap
- i said it first

Please. Lots of us like to hike in winter and have no where the knowledge or experience you two do. Give us information, not insults. If the information conflicts, so what? The world is full of conflicting experts. HIkers are used to listening to pros and cons and deciding what is best for them.

Thanks

Lone Wolf

01-25-2007, 14:57

woodsy

01-25-2007, 15:05

Hey Wolf
Thanks for sharing some of your stories about your winter trek
I really enjoyed reading about parts of your your trip across Maine.
You should write a book about it ,I'm sure you could. $$$$$$$$

The Old Fhart

01-25-2007, 15:07

Frosty(claiming I said) "- you're ignorant"What you 'claim' I said is distorting the facts. Lets get this right, Frosty, I said: "A farcical statement that can only be called ignorant. The definition of ignorant means 'lacking knowledge about a particular subject'. The statement is ignorant because Wolf has no knowledge of what my experience level is, I did not call him ignorant as you implied. If that's how you want to paint him, say so, don't drag me into it.:D

The Old Fhart

01-25-2007, 15:12

Woodsy-"You should write a book about it ,I'm sure you could." It's already been done, though not on as grand a scale as Wolf's adventure. It's called 'The Long Walk' by Slavomir Rawicz.:D

woodsy

01-25-2007, 15:16

It's already been done, though not on as grand a scale as Wolf's adventure. It's called 'The Long Walk' by Slavomir Rawicz.:D

I'll check it out, thats helpful:)

4eyedbuzzard

01-25-2007, 15:37

I really enjoy a good discussion, when someone posts some bit of information, and someone else's posts different information and opinions on the same topic.

In another thread, someone had thoughts on the lost hiker. I had other thoughts. 4eyedbuzzard disagreed with some of what I said and gave what he thought, and the discussion went on. No one called anyone else names, no one tried to negate any one else's opinions/beliefs/whatever. Just a flow of information back and forth.

Thank you. And although I am an opinionated SOB that doesn't mean I don't learn a thing or too from those I disagree with, and sometimes even come to the conclusion that I am, er, ah (gasp) wrong.:eek: In hindsight the lost hiker's equipment was pretty good - it was his decision to separate himself from suitable common equipment that brought about the more life-threatening situation.

ferryman

01-25-2007, 16:07

Hey Folks, Let's bring the BP levels down a little bit. I, for one, cannot count the number of times I have made less than brilliant moves on wild rivers and tall mountains, where my engine gets stuck in the SOL gear! Somehow, in all our pursuits of "riding the edge" we manage to arrive back home relatively unscathed save a few bruises and campfire stories. I consider Wolf-23,000, a good friend, trustworthy ferry operator (he worked the ferry service in 1991) and competent all-weather long distance hiker. Is there alot of experienced outdoorspersons who all had to "get burned to learn" out there, then let's write about the experiences and hold back on the expletives. BTW, I'm off to "tax-free" NH for a WFA course this weekend entitled " It only takes one misstep on Tuckerman's....Do you feel lucky today, well do ya punk!" It sounds like a pretty interesting class! Steve

Wolf - 23000

01-25-2007, 16:16

I never said what you did was impossible, just extremely stupid, get the difference? The fact that you would think I thought your walks in the woods impossible just goes to show what you think of your abilities compared to the ability of all other hikers.

Most people in America would consider hiking the AT as extremely stupid if they never did it or spend little time in the woods. And yes, I do have a lot of faith in my abilities. Winter hiking Maine was something I just did. I build up to it. I have a good amount of experience winter hiking. There nothing stupid about it. You can live your life safe and snug in your warm house or you can go out there and do something with it and enjoy it. There is some risk involve but that life. Deal with it.

If you only knew how humorous that statement is! You still just don’t get it, do you? The point is that someone would come out to get anyone in trouble, even you. While you seem to want prove how great you are by belittling others and want to emulate Alexander SuperTramp and become one with nature, any sane person only takes reasonable and calculated risks.

I have not belittle anyone. I haven’t told anyone they can’t do it or what they are doing is “extremely stupid” unlike someone. I point out that it something you need to build up to, these are some of the risk and not go out there half cock and get themselves killed or someone else. I plan everything very carefully, had some very good gear and knew how to use it and use the most important piece of equipment my own head. There were some times I weight safety vs hiking on the AT. I took the best route that got me through safely.

“A farcical statement that can only be called ignorant because you know nothing about what my experience is. But then again, I’d expect no more from you,”

You’re the one who call bad mouth winter hiking Maine. It normal done by someone who has never done it or has limit experience. So please educate me on what all you have done.

Please don’t bore me with this dribble. I just wish there were trails some of the places I’ve gone in winter, you aren’t impressing me in the least.

Just admit that you go out to please yourself and it has nothing to do with your safety, or the safety of others, and quit presenting your mundane hikes as epic adventures that only the mighty Wolf can do. Give it a rest.

I haven’t put anything out there to impress anyone, How talking about bog bridges being under snow would impress anyone I will never understand but any way. And I’ve gone winter hiking off-trail too but at the time staying on the AT as much as possible was my goal and that what I did.

I’ve never said I was the mighty Wolf and only I could do it so please stop making things up. If you read the beginning post, you would find out gardenville asking about Maine in the winter something I’ve done. I never said he could or could not do it but point out some of the things that he could expect being out there from my own experience.

And ok, I will admit that I do go out there to please myself. I enjoy being out there and wish only I could do it more. I also make sure I keep myself safe and have fun at the same time. But one thing I don’t like is when someone straight out lies about me, quoting me for things I never said or put down my hiking because they wouldn’t do it. So it a rest.

Wolf

Frosty

01-25-2007, 17:05

What you 'claim' I said is distorting the facts. Lets get this right, Frosty, I said: "A farcical statement that can only be called ignorant. The definition of ignorant means 'lacking knowledge about a particular subject'. The statement is ignorant because Wolf has no knowledge of what my experience level is, I did not call him ignorant as you implied. If that's how you want to paint him, say so, don't drag me into it.:DI didn't quote you on anything. Just tried to capture a bit of the silliness of the tone of the bickering, without attribution to either. I apologize if you were offended. In retrospect, I shouldn't have had that part in, anyway. My feeble attempts at humor seldom come across as funny on the internet.

Gray Blazer

01-25-2007, 21:32

I didn't quote you on anything. Just tried to capture a bit of the silliness of the tone of the bickering, without attribution to either. I apologize if you were offended. In retrospect, I shouldn't have had that part in, anyway. My feeble attempts at humor seldom come across as funny on the internet.I thought it was funny. I got it, but maybe that's because I am an elementary school music teacher. BTW Frosty,speaking of winter starts, are you going to continue your hike soon?

woodsy

01-25-2007, 22:58

Higher Summits Forecast

Mountain weather is subject to rapid changes and extreme conditions. Always be prepared to make your own assessment of travel and weather conditions. This outlook is one tool to help you plan a safe trip. Always travel with adequate clothing, shelter, food, and water.
Thursday, January 25, 2007
3:47 PM
Severe wind chills on the summits.
There isnâ€™t a strong influence on our weather today. Mostly clear skies give way to increasing clouds above and below the peaks later. Some models have the higher summits in a dry slot between clouds above and undercast below tonight. The mountains will see areas of fog overnight and with winds picking up just a bit it is likely periods of fog will overcome the higher summits as well. There is a slight chance the mountains will see some occasional light snow tonight in addition. Colder air draws down from Canada today. As a low pressure system off the coast intensifies it will continue to pull cold air from the north and weâ€™ll see temperatures fall as low as 30 below tonight rising only slightly during the day Friday. There isnâ€™t much danger of precipitation from this low but weâ€™ll feel it as the cold cuts with wind chills at 60 to 70 below on the peaks. For those planning a hike, conditions will be far more hazardous then they might appear at a glance.
Jon Cotton
Observer

Jack Tarlin

01-25-2007, 23:02

Frosty

01-26-2007, 00:14

What's with the weather anyway? I spend the whole winter never wearing anything heavier than a quilted shirt, and all of a sudden it seems like I'm living in Carter Notch or something.

tiamalle

01-26-2007, 00:25

You got that right.

It's presently two degrees in Hanover but with the wind, it is effectively 7 below zero.

Tomorrow's supposed to be colder.

Don't even wanna think about what it's like at 5,000 feet.

NOT a weekend for the White Mountains!!Frosty & Jack it is cold in the south tonight also.Local radio predicts around 12 here in Franklin tonight

quicktoez

01-26-2007, 01:09

I have done quite a bit of winter camping, climbed most of the way up Mt. Washington in March among others. This I did on Tele skis with a guide and 15 years of teleskiing experience. We camped on a 10 foot snow pack and had many challenges including falling into tree holes. I admire your goal but think you might find this difficult if not dangerous and don't even think about doing that alone. Good luck, may your tracks be long. :-?

Mags

01-26-2007, 02:41

Speaking of New England weather.... :)

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/northeast_stunned_by_freak_january

When in doubt, go to The Onion.

Pokey2006

01-26-2007, 04:30

Excellent link! Already sharing it with friends....Love the Onion!

The Old Fhart

01-26-2007, 08:52

Wolf23000-"There nothing stupid about it. You can live your life safe and snug in your warm house or you can go out there and do something with it and enjoy it." Most people I know live in houses, probably even you.:D I assume you are trying to make some obscure point with that comment. Just to make it clear to you, when I choose to go outside, just like everyone else, I am, as you say, "do[ing] something with it and enjoy it".

Wolf23000-"You’re the one who[‘s] call[??] bad mouth[ed] winter hiking [in] Maine. It[‘s] normal[ly] done by someone who has never done it or has limit[ed] experience. So please educate me on what all you have done."Ah, so you still feel the need to prove how superior you are to me and other hikers-how droll. Demanding a shoot-out at high noon!:rolleyes: The intrinsic fact is that hiking alone is both dangerous and stupid, and to brag about it, claiming you are so experienced you are exempt from the laws of nature while at the same time telling of all your near fatal accidents and injuries, only makes it more so. It’s like Evil Knievel telling how no one other than he should do motorcycle stunts because he knows what he’s doing and in the next breath tell about how he’s broken almost every bone in his body.:D

Read this carefully so maybe you’ll get it the forth time around, I have never, ever, bad mouthed winter hiking in Maine-never. For you to claim this is a complete fabrication and you cannot show one single quote from me where I even implied that. I have simply repeated what countless books have said for countless years, solo hiking, especially in winter, is dangerous and stupid, no matter how great you claim you are. No one, not even the all powerful Oz, er, Wolf, is exempt. All I’ll say on my background is that being an instructor in Mountain Safety workshops, teaching advanced leadership and responsible hiking to hundreds of hikers for over 25 years, didn’t come from empty chest-thumping like you do. Oh, and in the workshops we use people like you as examples of how not to hike safely so your irresponsible hiking behavior has served at least some small purpose.;)

The Old Fhart

01-26-2007, 08:57

Frosty-"I apologize if you were offended."Not even slightly offended, no need to appologize. That reply of mine wasn't actually directed at you at all, if you read between the lines.:-? Sometimes I'm just too subtle!

Gray Blazer

01-26-2007, 10:01

Speaking of New England weather.... :)

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/northeast_stunned_by_freak_january

When in doubt, go to The Onion.Spring temperatures to reach 140's?!? Now that's some serious global climate change.

Frosty

01-26-2007, 12:00

Sometimes I'm just too subtle!I...ummm...I...I...umm...I think I'll just let this one lie :D

The Old Fhart

01-26-2007, 12:05

Frosty-"I...ummm...I...I...umm...I think I'll just let this one lie"...ummm...ah...umm...Do you mean 'lie' or 'lay'?:D

woodsy

01-26-2007, 14:07

Back to the original topic, it's downright brutal out there today in the NE.

I usually go out for A WALK IN THE WOODS everyday but today is different........four layers? I think so!

4eyedbuzzard

01-26-2007, 15:04

Back to the original topic, it's downright brutal out there today in the NE.

I usually go out for A WALK IN THE WOODS everyday but today is different........four layers? I think so!

You bet! My four layers today are siding, sheathing, fiberglass, and sheetrock.:D :banana

warren doyle

01-26-2007, 18:49

I like hiking alone. I believe it is neither dangerous nor stupid to me. But hey, what do you expect from a Bozo who also is a common criminal?

I also get tired of listening to people that want to save someone from themselves - people who pass their own fears, levels of comfort/risk and other insecurities unto others.

Keep on hiking your hike Wolf and I hope our trails cross again in the future.

woodsy

01-26-2007, 18:58

You bet! My four layers today are siding, sheathing, fiberglass, and sheetrock.:D :banana

And I thought someone from northern NH would be tougher than that:confused:
In reality though, not a bad idea staying put and under cover!;)

4eyedbuzzard

01-26-2007, 19:22

And I thought someone from northern NH would be tougher than that:confused:
In reality though, not a bad idea staying put and under cover!;)

Just a transplanted wuss flatlander form Jersey.;)

You know how it works up here: "John Smith, 97, of Litchfield died on Thursday. Mr. Smith, who moved to Litchfield in 1910 where he lived for the past 96 years, was a native of New York.":confused:

woodsy

01-26-2007, 19:39

Just a transplanted wuss flatlander form Jersey.;)

You know how it works up here: "John Smith, 97, of Litchfield died on Thursday. Mr. Smith, who moved to Litchfield in 1910 where he lived for the past 96 years, was a native of New York.":confused:

Well I been wondering where you learned to talk like you do:-?,
You must fit in right well up in them ther mtns where everyone else is right full-o-stories too,lol
Can't beat livin in the mtns, good people they is, don't matter how cold it gets,
Everyone lookin out for everyone when the goin gets tough, well, most everyone anyways:rolleyes:

Wolf - 23000

01-26-2007, 22:05

Most people I know live in houses, probably even you. I assume you are trying to make some obscure point with that comment. Just to make it clear to you, when I choose to go outside, just like everyone else, I am, as you say, "do[ing] something with it and enjoy it".

I do live in a house, of course but every time you go out side there is a risk that you won’t come back. And just like you I enjoy being out there, but I’m not going to let the fact that I don’t travel with a partner stop me. Almost all of my hiking has been done alone. It’s not that I don’t look for an experience partner, but it is the way things worked out. I’ve seen some very beautiful places that I would have never seen if I waited around for someone to join me.

Ah, so you still feel the need to prove how superior you are to me and other hikers-how droll.

To answer your post, I don’t feel I have to prove anything. I know what I’ve done and that who I hike for. I don’t hike for you or anyone else. That is one of the different between hiking alone and hiking with someone. I have no ego to please, because I know almost no one is out there.

Demanding a shoot-out at high noon!

I don’t think you would win a shoot-out with me. I work with some rather large guns that like to make a big BANG!!! :D

The intrinsic fact is that hiking alone is both dangerous and stupid, and to brag about it, claiming you are so experienced you are exempt from the laws of nature while at the same time telling of all your near fatal accidents and injuries, only makes it more so.

Now your declaring there is a law on hiking alone vs. with someone … hum … Don’t we feel almighty? The truth is there are many animals that travel alone vs. in a pack. The only true law in nature is survived of the fittest.

Hiking alone is no more dangerous or stupid than hiking with a party. If your crossing an ice bridge, is it safer to cross with 250 pounds (an average man weight plus pack) or 750 + pounds?

During the New England winter, I’m sure you will agree that bad things happen fast. You can’t always control what happens but you can control how you reaction to it. Hiking with a partner, you can’t always control what they do – sometimes putting yourself in more of a jam then if they were not there. You may know you have to push out hard before bad weather sets in, but if your partner does want to then what?

And yes, I had some accidents and I’m sure you have too. The different is I’m willing to share my experience so that others will know these are some of the things to look out for or could happen. It’s not bragging.

I have never, ever, bad mouthed winter hiking in Maine-never. For you to claim this is a complete fabrication and you cannot show one single quote from me where I even implied that.

What are you doing? Because you don’t agree with the way I hike you call me names like superhuman hiker, invincible, or I’m trying to prove that I’m superior to others. What kind of garbage is that? I’ve never made any such claim other than I have more experience winter hiking than most hikers whether you agree with the way I travel or not.

All I’ll say on my background is that being an instructor in Mountain Safety workshops, teaching advanced leadership and responsible hiking to hundreds of hikers for over 25 years,

Am I supposes to be impress? The only thing your doing is teaching what you feel is the right way of doing things or what is written in a book and normal travel under ideal conditions. It’s a little different when your out there even in the bad times. When your out there for an extend period, you don’t always have good weather.

didn’t come from empty chest-thumping like you do.

Please don’t include non-sense like this.

Oh, and in the workshops we use people like you as examples of how not to hike safely so your irresponsible hiking behavior has served at least some small purpose.

Do you also include how many hikers needed rescuing while having a partner when compare to those that hike single? Hiking alone, you pick the best and route that you feel is the safes to go across. Hiking with a partner you don’t always do that because there is always compromise.

Wolf

Wolf - 23000

01-26-2007, 22:43

To settle the debate over if hiking alone is any more danger over hiking with a partner, :-? I suggest we count off the number of rescues?

Hiking Alone: 0
Hiking w/partner(s) 1

I don't take any pleasure in anyone needing to be rescue but the numbers of but maybe someone will get the message hiking hiking alone is no more dangerous than hiking with a partner.

Wolf

Dateline 1/22/07 – 11:00 pm news

Another hiker was rescued in the White Mountains yesterday. The 24 year old had been hiking with two of his friends over the weekend when they became separated in a whiteout. The other two made it out while safely but he became disoriented and lost the trail.

He used his cell phone to call his friends to tell them he was safe but could not describe his location due to weather conditions. Let me guess, everything looked white?

Luckily he was somewhat experienced because he had a sleeping bag and a enough clothing to survive 2 nights before a rescue was launched and he was brought out to safety by helicopter. He is suffering from frostbite but there was no information on the extent.

New Hampshire law says he gets to pay the rescue expenses. I sure hope the “friends” that left him behind split the cost.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20881 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20881)

4eyedbuzzard

01-26-2007, 23:05

Nothin' personal Wolf, but the facts are that he did not become separated due to the white-out, and his friends didn't leave him - he chose to go ahead of them alone.

"...But hurricane-force winds and blowing snow forced the trio to make a change in plans that afternoon. Gagnon went ahead of his companions and was to meet them at the Appalachian Mountain Club's Greenleaf hut, before they returned to the Bridle Path trailhead in Franconia Notch.
When he did not show up Saturday afternoon, his friends hiked down and called for help..."

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Lost+hiker+found+alive&articleId=3c7ac850-64ce-4198-bb8e-5e6f5a23aeb4

The Old Fhart

01-26-2007, 23:34

Wolf23000-"To answer your post, I don’t feel I have to prove anything." Ah, but you’ve spent all your time trying to do just that from your nice snug home rather than going out and conquering nature.:rolleyes:

When I pointed out yet another of your, how shall we say, 'misinterpretations' by replying: "I have never, ever, bad mouthed winter hiking in Maine-never. For you to claim this is a complete fabrication and you cannot show one single quote from me where I even implied that." you said:

Wolf23000-"What are you doing?...... I’ve never made any such claim ……"Actually you did, but it appears you were under the influence because your gibberish had to be translated into English. Your exact words (with the letters inside the [] added to make it intelligible):

Wolf23000-You’re the one who[‘s] call[??] bad mouth[ed] winter hiking [in] Maine. It[‘s] normal[ly] done by someone who has never done it or has limit[ed] experience.
It would be a big help if you could only remember what you tried to type previously because you continually contradict yourself. If you hike as carefully as you type, and with as much control, I’m surprised you can make it out the door.

Wolf23000-So please educate me on what all you have done.And you asked me what I had done, but seeing my name isn’t Wolf23000, nothing I, or anyone has done, including having climbing Everest would impress you in the least because nothing important happens outside your own little world, and that stops at your nose. When I mentioned the Mountain Safety Workshops, I got the predicted response:

Wolf23000-"Am I supposes to be impress[ed]?"
No, because I know there is nothing that impresses you except your own stunts, and you continually tell everyone how only you can hike Maine alone, blah, blah…..

Wolf23000-"The only thing your doing is teaching what you feel is the right way of doing things or what is written in a book and normal travel under ideal conditions."Sorry, wrong again, at least you display a consistent ignorance about the entire world around you. Perhaps if you come to one of our workshops we could fit you into one of the beginner sections to try to get you up to speed.

Wolf23000-"It’s a little different when your[you're] out there even in the bad times. When your out there for an extend period, you don’t always have good weather."Oh please tell me a little about bad weather, I know so little about it and you know, oh, so so much.:D :D

Wolf23000-"That is one of the different between hiking alone and hiking with someone. I have no ego to please, because I know almost no one is out there." Oh but there is an ego out there that pleases you greatly, and I’m surprised you can even lift it, yours is so big.

Wolf23000-"To settle the debate over if hiking alone is any more danger over hiking with a partner………..
Another hiker was rescued in the White Mountains yesterday. The 24 year old had been hiking with two of his friends over the weekend when they became separated in a whiteout. The other two made it out [while] safely but he became disoriented and lost the trail."

So while he was hiking with two of his friends (i.e., they were a group) there were no problems, but when he got separated and he was ALONE, the problems started. Great example, thanks for proving the point for me that hiking alone is much more dangerous than with a group.:D

Gray Blazer

01-26-2007, 23:58

I wish I knew half as much about winter mountain hiking as you guys. I was born in FL and have lived here all my life. Although I have lived in north FL since 72, I am not used to northern cold weather. Therefore, when I camped out on the AT in NC March last year and it snowed for three or four days straight, I froze my bippie! Down here when it gets cold we layer up because it will probably warm up later on. I gotta get some light weight waterproof clothes/jacket and some long johns. I also have to get a lightweight possibly 15 degrees(?) sleeping bag. I don't want to spend a fortune on the stuff because then walking in the woods stops being fun. I'm hoping some NE area cold weather hikers bring some used cold weather gear (I'll buy the long johns new. Man, I am glad I proof read this) to Ron's April Fool"s Bash to sell or trade.

Gray Blazer

01-27-2007, 00:14

I was watching the weather channel and they were showing this story about a rescuer out west who hiked two miles thru the snow with his dog Cider to rescue this dog buried in a slide on Mt Shasta. It seems like you would want a dog like that to hike with you. How do guys in Norway hike in winter? How did the old mountain man run his traplines in winter? Oh well, I'm goin to the beach tomorrow.

Wolf - 23000

01-27-2007, 01:14

Ah, but you’ve spent all your time trying to do just that from your nice snug home rather than going out and conquering nature.

Home??? Some of us have to work. I wish I was at home right about now.:D I’m out side doing a field exercise. I using a palm pilot for internet access. All I can say about it is it works.

It would be a big help if you could only remember what you tried to type previously because you continually contradict yourself. If you hike as carefully as you type, and with as much control, I’m surprised you can make it out the door.

I’ll admit it is hard to write with this dam thing but it the best I can do for now.

And you asked me what I had done, but seeing my name isn’t Wolf23000, nothing I, or anyone has done, including having climbing Everest would impress you in the least because nothing important happens outside your own little world, and that stops at your nose. When I mentioned the Mountain Safety Workshops, I got the predicted response:

I’m sorry not to be impressed by you being an instructor in Mountain Safety workshops or bruise your ego but being an instructor does impress me much. No offence intended towards you or what you have done but I’ve run into some very sorry instructors and I’m sure you have too.

Quote:
Wolf23000-"The only thing your doing is teaching what you feel is the right way of doing things or what is written in a book and normal travel under ideal conditions."

Sorry, wrong again, at least you display a consistent ignorance about the entire world around you. Perhaps if you come to one of our workshops we could fit you into one of the beginner sections to try to get you up to speed.
I’ll come to your section if you come to mine!

Oh please tell me a little about bad weather, I know so little about it and you know, oh, so so much.

I’m sure you have seen bad weather but I’m sure you don’t take your clients out in it.

So while he was hiking with two of his friends (i.e., they were a group) there were no problems, but when he got separated and he was ALONE, the problems started. Great example, thanks for proving the point for me that hiking alone is much more dangerous than with a group.

How much help did his partners give him? Please do tell. The leader is responsible for keeping the team together or don’t you teach that in your Mountain Safety workshops. He started off with partners and rather than taken care of each other, they worried about themselves.

Wolf

4eyedbuzzard

01-27-2007, 01:41

So while he was hiking with two of his friends (i.e., they were a group) there were no problems, but when he got separated and he was ALONE, the problems started. Great example, thanks for proving the point for me that hiking alone is much more dangerous than with a group.:D

Not when he got separated - when he CHOSE to be separated by going ahead. It's actually even a better example as why you should stay with your group. He made the conscious decision to go alone, then got disoriented and lost. The group he left made it back to the trailhead fine.

4eyedbuzzard

01-27-2007, 01:46

How much help did his partners give him? Please do tell. The leader is responsible for keeping the team together or don’t you teach that in your Mountain Safety workshops. He started off with partners and rather than taken care of each other, they worried about themselves.

Wolf

He made a conscious decision to split from the group. They didn't leave him and it wasn't a freakin accident. How much help did his partners give him? When he failed to show up as planned, they hiked down and immediately initiated the emergency response that saved his life. Do you even bother to read the news articles?

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Lost+hiker+found+alive&articleId=3c7ac850-64ce-4198-bb8e-5e6f5a23aeb4

woodsy

01-27-2007, 06:46

Remind me to never post a winter solo trip report, I'd never hear the end of it!

Pokey2006

01-27-2007, 08:07

Last night temps in New England got down to 3 degrees, much lower with the wind chill -- and there was a definite wind CHILL. That was at sea level, in southern New England, never mind up north in the mountains. And this is the supposedly "warm" winter we're having.

Don't mess with it. Just because New England has a warm spell doesn't mean the warm spell will last.

The Old Fhart

01-27-2007, 08:55

4eyedbuzzard-"Not when he got separated - when he CHOSE to be separated by going ahead."Oh, I totally agree with what you say. It was his choice to be a 'lone wolf' that eventually led to his problems. I'm sure he probably thought he was so talented that he was better off ditching his friends and giving up access to the group safety equipment. No matter what the reason, he did get separated from the safety of the group. The fact that he chose to leave them makes it worse because it displays arrogance that he is superior to the others in his group, and actually he left them to fend for themselves. He put them at risk as well.

Wolf23000-"I’ll come to your section if you come to mine!"So now you 'claim to teach a mountain safety workshop? This is going from just plain humorous to ludicrous and bizarre!:D The staff of about 20 instructors at the Mountain Safety Workshop where I’ve been for over 25 years consists of hikers/climbers who have hiked all over the world (Denali, Himalayas, Cascades, etc.) and even the volunteer kitchen staff have more real knowledge about mountain safety than you’ve displayed here. Your continual claim that it is safer to hike alone is enough to advise anyone to avoid whatever you claim to teach like the plague.:eek:

woodsy

01-27-2007, 09:03

[quote=The Old Fhart

So now you 'claim to teach a mountain safety workshop? This is going from just plain humorous to ludicrous and bizarre!:D The staff of about 20 instructors at the Mountain Safety Workshop where I’ve been for over 25 years consists of hikers/climbers who have hiked all over the world (Denali, Himalayas, Cascades, etc.) and even the volunteer kitchen staff have more real knowledge about mountain safety than you’ve displayed here. Your continual claim that it is safer to hike alone is enough to advise anyone to avoid whatever you claim to teach like the plague.:eek:[/quote]

Blah, Blah, Blah
I'm signing up for wolf's class, someone whos been there done that.;)

Lone Wolf

01-27-2007, 09:08

Blah, Blah, Blah
I'm signing up for wolf's class, someone whos been there done that.;)

i've seen wolf in action. he's lucky to be alive. he's not qualified to teach

The Old Fhart

01-27-2007, 09:15

Woodsy-"Blah, Blah, Blah
I'm signing up for wolf's class, someone whos been there done that."So you choose not to acknowledge that our staff consists of "hikers/climbers who have hiked all over the world (Denali, Himalayas, Cascades, etc.)"

I wish you the best of luck.

woodsy

01-27-2007, 09:19

Besides, Old Fhart is anti-solo.

rafe

01-27-2007, 09:19

A tale of two wolves. One doesn't hike in the rain. The other looks for the meanest, gnarliest terrain on the AT, and hikes it in the meanest, gnarliest season, alone. Because there's nobody else quite as fit on the planet, and there's strength in being alone.

Lone Wolf

01-27-2007, 09:20

one is smarter and will live longer

woodsy

01-27-2007, 09:28

So you choose not to acknowledge that our staff consists of "hikers/climbers who have hiked all over the world (Denali, Himalayas, Cascades, etc.)"

I wish you the best of luck.
Yeah well not everyone here is a beginner Old Fhart. You are preaching as though you are a God of some sort(hiking God?)and the only one who knows anything about it. There are some very experienced hikers at WB, probably unlike the ones you provide classes for.
I've had the opportunity to hike with world class hikers and mountaineers too.

And as for your best of luck, well, I never needed it before and doubt I'll need it in the future but thanks anyway, lol

The Old Fhart

01-27-2007, 10:23

Woodsy-"Besides, Old Fhart is anti-solo."I take that as the highest compliment!;)

Woodsy-"You are preaching as though you are a God of some sort(hiking God?)and the only one who knows anything about it. There are some very experienced hikers at WB, probably unlike the ones you provide classes for."Never said that, never implied that. The only reason I even mentioned the workshop is Wolf23000 asked about what I've done so I mentioned just one thing that had relevance.
Woodsy-“There are some very experienced hikers at WB, probably unlike the ones you provide classes for.” There are many experienced hikers here on WB that I know and admire. However when you say “probably unlike the ones you provide classes for” you are completely wrong. My section is ‘advanced leadership’ and the people in that group have to have lots of experience to even qualify to be assigned in that section. What we need to teach, and ascertain, is whether these participants have the necessary woods smarts and people skills so we can say they are qualified to lead groups outdoors. The people who don’t qualify, and there are few, are the ones with a distorted sense of ego and are more interested in their own agendas than the safety and well being of the group. Every one of the workshop staff has gone through this advanced leadership section so we know they adhere to what we refer to as ‘accepted peer practices’ and every instructor, from beginner through advanced leadership, is promoting the same safe mountain travel guidelines. Sorry if you find that widely accepted method of instruction offensive.

The Old Fhart

01-27-2007, 10:27

Lone Wolf-"one is smarter and will live longer"Just goes to show that 1 Lone Wolf is much smarter than 23,000!:D

woodsy

01-27-2007, 11:55

I take that as the highest compliment!;)
Never said that, never implied that. The only reason I even mentioned the workshop is Wolf23000 asked about what I've done so I mentioned just one thing that had relevance. There are many experienced hikers here on WB that I know and admire. However when you say “probably unlike the ones you provide classes for” you are completely wrong. My section is ‘advanced leadership’ and the people in that group have to have lots of experience to even qualify to be assigned in that section. What we need to teach, and ascertain, is whether these participants have the necessary woods smarts and people skills so we can say they are qualified to lead groups outdoors. The people who don’t qualify, and there are few, are the ones with a distorted sense of ego and are more interested in their own agendas than the safety and well being of the group. Every one of the workshop staff has gone through this advanced leadership section so we know they adhere to what we refer to as ‘accepted peer practices’ and every instructor, from beginner through advanced leadership, is promoting the same safe mountain travel guidelines. Sorry if you find that widely accepted method of instruction offensive.

Well this is a good example of how you can take a few lines from a post a blow it up into a full blown controversy, like you did with wolf's bits and pieces of his winter trip.
I asked wolf early on to share some of his experiences on that trip, so that others could see the diffuculties in undertaking such a trip .
I am regretting that I asked him to do this now because you've turned it into something other than what it was meant to be for.....
Hopefully other people here gained some insight into what Wolf posted from his trip and learned a thing or two.
Amen

4eyedbuzzard

01-27-2007, 12:19

There are people with elite skills in many endeavors that attempt and succeed at things most people should not do. Safety anaylsis generally looks at situational risk vs behavior. When the risk becomes great, and the behavior cannot compensate, an accident occurs. People at the elite level push the envelope, they intentionally place themselves in situations with high risks to prove their ability to mange those risks through controlling their behavior.

I don't "have a problem" with people hiking the Whites or the ME AT alone in winter. It can and is done successfully. What I'm having a problem with here is someone who claims a high skill level stating the risks of hiking alone are the same or lower than that of doing so in a skilled group or with a skilled partner.

There are lots of reasons people hike alone, but safety simply isn't one of them.

The Old Fhart

01-27-2007, 13:22

Woodsy-"Hopefully other people here gained some insight into what Wolf posted from his trip and learned a thing or two."From the responses, other people have formed opinions, it's just not what you or Wolf23000 are pushing.

4eyedbuzzard-"There are lots of reasons people hike alone, but safety simply isn't one of them."Bingo!:banana

To do it is one thing, but to glorify it as an epic strugle between you and nature, and to brag about it while saying you are safer hiking alone, especially in winter, and claiming you are the only one capable of doing that, is ego gone wild. When Wolf claims it’s safer to hike alone, the only people it is safer for are the ones with the knowledge and experience not to go with him!:D

Lone Wolf

01-27-2007, 13:41

no offense to wolf but i wouldn't hike with him in winter. i've seen what little he carries. he posesses more luck than skill.

Mags

01-27-2007, 14:20

Right now it is snowing. ~4 inches or so are expected. There is a wide open field across from where I live that is perfect for 1-2 hrs of x-country skiing.

I am doing it solo. I hope to survive! :eek:

If I survive this ardous ordeal, I hope to post a trip report. I am crossing my fingers I do not get my trip report dissected and criticized too much. ;)

(Tounge firmly planted in cheek. Really, I have no views one way or another on this thread. I'd like to see Wolf's sldeshow if he ever had one though!)

The Old Fhart

01-27-2007, 14:42

The day had begun with the weather observatory on the summit recording winds gusting to 114 mph, but with the forecast calling for improving conditions. Constant winds of 75-95 mph were predicted to be “diminishing,” which meant down to 45-75 mph. In reality, they ended up decreasing to 35-40 mph. Tame by Mount Washington standards.

Our ascent was a far cry from the same day six years previous. On Jan. 15, 1994, the weather worsened — as predicted — catching an ill-prepared pair of young climbers in a death trap despite the efforts of 11 men from the Mountain Rescue Service.

“I remember the Tinkham-Haas rescue very well indeed,” said Nick Yardley, who was the head guide for the International Mountain Climbing School in North Conway, N.H., and the director of the Mountain Rescue Service. “It was one of the coldest days of my life — 85 mph winds, minus-35 (temperature), which puts the wind-chill well below minus-100. We all had frost-nip on the face.

“It was a sad rescue — one over-ambitious kid with an ego leading another to his death.”

Derek Tinkham and Jeremy Haas were experienced mountaineers on college break. They were determined to do a winter traverse of the Presidential Range — with Haas setting the pace. Never mind the high winds and extreme cold forecast for that weekend.

After spending one night bivouacked at the northern end of the range, the pair climbed Madison and Adams. Then trouble set in. Tinkham slowed, became unsteady on his feet, and finally collapsed at the top of Mount Jefferson — more than three miles from the summit of Washington. He was suffering from hypothermia; his body’s core temperature dropping with the mercury outdoors. It was now minus-27 with winds in the 80s and gusting to 96 mph. Haas tried to get Tinkham into a sleeping bag, then left him.

It took Haas four hours to reach the weather station on top of Washington. Once inside, his hands horribly frost-bitten because he’d lost his gloves while helping Tinkham, he told the observatory crew about the situation. A call was placed down to the valley. But because of the brutal conditions, a night rescue was deemed impossible. Yardley’s team set off at 5 a.m. the next day in weather still too harsh for climbing. Despite being dressed as if on a Himalayan expedition, one rescuer was halted below timberline by cold feet, another pulled up lame after postholing on Jefferson, and a third had his eyes frozen shut.

“When we found Derek, he had on barely enough clothes for a moderate spring day on the mountain,” Yardley said. “We’d been told he’d been left warmly wrapped up — that is the only reason we bothered going out in such conditions. In reality, he wasn’t even in his sleeping bag above his knees.”
Tinkham had already succumbed to the vicious weather. He was dead at the age of 20.

Yardley was involved in about 20 rescues on Mount Washington from 1987 to 1995 — a span during which 10 people died climbing. A native of Scotland, where the weather also demands respect, he has climbed in Alaska, Canada, Nepal and Peru. “I have never been so cold as I have been on Washington,” he will tell you.

“Cold, wind and lack of visibility … are the issues on Washington. With the jetstream touching down on Washington, the severe cold and wind is far more severe than people ever expect. Despite the nice words that people write about these situations in the papers afterwards, I’m not sure I can remember any rescue that was a pure accident. In most cases, ego, ignorance or poor judgement was the cause of the situation.”

He believes “judgement — or a lack of it — was the main issue” in Tinkham’s death.

Frosty

01-27-2007, 15:39

Well this is a good example of how you can take a few lines from a post a blow it up into a full blown controversy, like you did with wolf's bits and pieces of his winter trip.
I asked wolf early on to share some of his experiences on that trip, so that others could see the diffuculties in undertaking such a trip .
I am regretting that I asked him to do this now because you've turned it into something other than what it was meant to be for.....
Hopefully other people here gained some insight into what Wolf posted from his trip and learned a thing or two.
Amen
Well this is a good example of how you can take a few lines from a post a blow it up into a full blown controversy, like you did with wolf's bits and pieces of his winter trip.
I asked wolf early on to share some of his experiences on that trip, so that others could see the diffuculties in undertaking such a trip .
I am regretting that I asked him to do this now because you've turned it into something other than what it was meant to be for.....
Hopefully other people here gained some insight into what Wolf posted from his trip and learned a thing or two.
AmenI like to hear differing opinions and experiences, and make my own decisions based on them, and appreciate the effort you made here, Woodsy. But there isn't any way we are going to get anything resembling a discussion here.

Maybe it you started another thread on the same topic ...

woodsy

01-27-2007, 16:01

Maybe it you started another thread on the same topic ...

ROFLMAO(rolling on floor laughing my ass off)

Mags

01-27-2007, 16:57

Derek Tinkham and Jeremy Haas were experienced mountaineers on college break.

Sigh. I remember this incident. Very sad.

I "knew" Tinkham (friend of a very good friend of mine, briefly met him at a party). My buddy was a life guard in RI when we were in college. I used to hang out with all the lifeguards at parties and such [1].

At the "awards ceremony" (for lack of a better term) they have every year, the lifeguards get awards for various events, achievements, etc.

. Very, very sad when Tinkham's father received a memorial plaque (I think? It is going on 12+ yrs!), it was a quieting experience. Considering most of us there were 18-22 yo or so and "immortal", it was slap of reality in the face.

In any case, guys. Give it a rest. You've both proven your point. Be safe out there. Enjoy nature. What more could both of you say?

In any case, I "survived" my solo cross country ski. I forget my sun glasses, so naturally the sun came out! Doh! :) Now off to cook for the dinner I am hosting tonight.....

[1] Never, ever get into trouble Fri morning through Mon morning. The lifeguards are ALWAYS hungover from partying on Thurs - Sat nights... Then again, I was too at that time. :-)

Wolf - 23000

01-27-2007, 18:53

Oh, I totally agree with what you say. It was his choice to be a 'lone wolf' that eventually led to his problems. I'm sure he probably thought he was so talented that he was better off ditching his friends and giving up access to the group safety equipment. No matter what the reason, he did get separated from the safety of the group. The fact that he chose to leave them makes it worse because it displays arrogance that he is superior to the others in his group, and actually he left them to fend for themselves. He put them at risk as well.

The person hiking in front or the point man always has the hardest job; breaking snow. It is up to the rest of the team to stay with him. They left him get to far ahead to and got in trouble. Remember, your not always going to have something with you but you will always have yourself.

So now you 'claim to teach a mountain safety workshop? This is going from just plain humorous to ludicrous and bizarre!

Never said I teach mountain safety but I am an instructor of a different sort and yes I do teach survival in the outdoors too.

Wolf

The Old Fhart

01-27-2007, 20:53

Wolf23000-"The person hiking in front or the point man always has the hardest job; breaking snow. It is up to the rest of the team to stay with him. They left him get to far ahead to and got in trouble. Remember, your not always going to have something with you but you will always have yourself.

So now you 'claim to teach a mountain safety workshop? This is going from just plain humorous to ludicrous and bizarre!"
FYI:
-The point 'man' doesn't break 'snow', they breaks trail and I don't say point 'man', it's 'point person'.
-I don't hike with a team, I hike with a 'group'
-"It is up to the rest of the 'team' to 'stay' with him" (false-it is the point person's responsibility to not get too far ahead.)
-"They don't left him get to far ahead" (it's 'let', not 'left' and it's 'too', not 'to') (Who on this thread write in gibberish like that?:-?)
-They don't got in trouble, the correct tense is 'get'
-"Remember, your not always" (It's you're, not your) (you shouldn't type under the influence, Wolf, you've been warned already)
-"going to have something with you" (what the heck did you mean by that random collection of words, Wolf?)
-"but you will always have yourself". (that's not me, that's classic Wolf):D

Fannypack

01-27-2007, 21:30

I think I remember Mr Clean hiking in ME in 1999 or 2000 (correct me if I am wrong)... started Jan 1 at Abol Bridge and hiked south

Mr Clean aka Jamie ??? (used to hang out at The Cabin allot)...

it seems like I remember him saying he hiked from Statton to Rangley in 9 days... I remember him telling me that it was important for him to hike slow enough that he didn't sweat very much... now that I know a little (just a little) more about winter hiking, I believe I understand what he meant about not sweating....

Finally, my question:
does anybody have any experience with hiking and sleeping (multiple days) when the temperature in around 0 deg F or below 0?
what do u do to keep from getting chilled when hiking or rest stops?
What do u do to minimize the amount of sweat that is released into your sleeping bag?

Any websites that address any of my questions?

Gray Blazer

01-27-2007, 23:22

WWJJD? What would Jeremiah Johnson do?

ed bell

01-28-2007, 00:07

WWJJD? What would Jeremiah Johnson do?I think I'll watch it right now. Thanks for the heads up.:)

The Solemates

01-28-2007, 00:49

ed bell

01-28-2007, 01:17

rafe

01-28-2007, 01:24

It's worth noting that for all the flak he's taken, Wolf-2300 was one of several who discouraged Gardenville from making the attempt. In fact as I recall, it was near unanimous.

4eyedbuzzard

01-28-2007, 02:11

getting back to the point of this thread, after wading through all the ridiculous bickering...does anyone know if gardenville attempted his winter thru hike? his original post said he was starting Jan 2007

I asked the same question a few days back. I don't think anyone has a location on him. His last post was Jan 7th. I kind of hope he decided to hike NOBO from Springer instead of attempting NOBO from the NH/ME border as he was considering. The weather turned here in NH/ME just after his last post. With the exception of a few decent days it has been brutally cold up here, especially considering the wind chill factor.

Sly

01-28-2007, 02:27

getting back to the point of this thread, after wading through all the ridiculous bickering...does anyone know if gardenville attempted his winter thru hike? his original post said he was starting Jan 2007

I tend to doubt it, he's been posting to postholer recently about his sub 2 lb pack!

http://postholer.com/journal/viewJournal.php?event_id=97

woodsy

01-28-2007, 09:56

[quote=The Old Fhart
-"but you will always have yourself". (that's not me, that's classic Wolf):D[/quote]
Yeah we know that OF

Some teach dependency

Some teach independence

I certainly hope you, OF, are more professional in your teachings at said leadership school than you have been here. LOL

Please check my spelling will ya:)

Wolf - 23000

01-28-2007, 10:17

-The point 'man' doesn't break 'snow', they breaks trail and I don't say point 'man', it's 'point person'.

A single set of tracks made by the point man is a trail??? Hum … :-? One set of foot prints in snow I don’t consider as a “trail”. The term is ‘point man’. I know it not p.c. but that is the correct term used.

-I don't hike with a team, I hike with a 'group' – Old Fart’s own words.

Group - a number of people or things considered together or regarded as belonging together

Team - a number of people organized to function cooperatively as a group

Source: Yahoo dictionary definition:

If you consider yourself as ‘hiking with a group’ instead of a cooperate member of a team, you are doing the same thing as a hiking alone with others with around you. So why do you feel you need to hike with someone if they are not going to work together as a cooperate unit? Are you trying to show off? :D

Leadership comes from the devolvement of a team, to work together as a cooperated unit, to give both motivation and direction. As someone who teaches ‘Advanced Leadership’ you should know that.

- "It is up to the rest of the 'team' to 'stay' with him" (false-it is the point person's responsibility to not get too far ahead.)

Wrong. :eek: The point man is look forward finding the best route, breaking snow/trail, looking out for dangerous places, etc. His/Her job is hard enough to be continuous looking back. The rest of the team needs to stay with him/her and cover his/her back. If there is a problem or someone if falling back, they need to let him/her know.

-"going to have something with you" (what the heck did you mean by that random collection of words, Wolf?)

-"but you will always have yourself". (that's not me, that's classic Wolf)

Your most important tool, no matter where you are or what you are doing, is your very own mind. Teamwork has it place, and I will never say different, but you also have to rely on yourself too. If your team or in your case ‘your group’ is not with you, you have to use your own judgment, your own skills to continue on or get yourself out of a bad situation. In some cases that could mean setting up some sort of shelter and staying put, in other cases it could mean continue on. My point is, don’t get to rap up in what you don’t have or who is not with you at the moment; it does not help and it gets people killed. Look at what you do have instead and use it.

Wolf

Wolf - 23000

01-28-2007, 10:29

Fannypack,

I have been out for multiple days’ winter hiking Maine.

While hiking I stayed a little cold and had a spare jacket I wore when I stopped. I normal only stopped once a day, around mid-day. I used the time to take out my stove to melt snow for water. Dehydration was more of an issue than the temperatures.

What do u do to minimize the amount of sweat that is released into your sleeping bag?

I use a VB inside my sleeping bag that helps keep my sleeping bag dry.

Wolf

Fannypack

01-28-2007, 10:49

I use a VB inside my sleeping bag that helps keep my sleeping bag dry.

Wolf
what do u use for VB?

Frosty

01-28-2007, 11:54

It's worth noting that for all the flak he's taken, Wolf-2300 was one of several who discouraged Gardenville from making the attempt. In fact as I recall, it was near unanimous.I think the flak has run it's course, and is now reduced to finding typos in his posts.

But you are right, in all that has transpired, I forgot that wolf-2300 did in fact give a number of reasons why it is dangerous, and examples of danger from his own hike, and recommended it not be done unless the guy was capable and confident.

Just went back and read, and even the stuff about hiking alone vs with a companion is him giving his experience. For him, he sees another partner as more of a liability than an asset.

I understand it better now. It is a matter of experience. I would be better off and safer if I hiked with wolf-2300 than if I hiked alone, but he would likely be better off alone than with me. I am far more likely to require assistance than to be able to give it.

Anyway, it's good to see the thread back on track.

Winter hiking/backpacking fascinates me.

rafe

01-28-2007, 12:05

Winter hiking/backpacking fascinates me.

I've never mastered it. The problem is, is that I don't consider it safe going alone. Summer/fall... no problem. I'm not the fine physical specimen that Wolf-2300 might be. I'm 54 and I know my limits. Anyone wants to team up for some short overnights this winter/spring, anywhere in southern New England, PM me. I'm hoping to make a small project of the MA Mid-State trail (all 90 miles of it.)

The Old Fhart

01-28-2007, 13:41

Blue highlighting/underlining, mine
Wolf23000-"The point 'man' doesn't break 'snow', they breaks trail and I don't say point 'man', it's 'point person'.[this sentence actually IS a quote from me!!]

A single set of tracks made by the point man is a trail??? Hum … One set of foot prints in snow I don’t consider as a “trail”.The term is ‘point man’. I know it not p.c. but that is the correct term used.

“-I don't hike with a team, I hike with a 'group' – Old Fart’s own words.[this sentence actually IS a quote from me, but the name is FHART!!]

Group - a number of people or things considered together or regarded as belonging together

Team - a number of people organized to function cooperatively as a group

Source: Yahoo dictionary definition:

If you consider yourself as ‘hiking with a group’ instead of a cooperate member of a team, you are doing the same thing as a hiking alone with others with around you. So why do you feel you need to hike with someone if they are not going to work together as a cooperate unit? Are you trying to show off?

Leadership comes from the devolvement of a team, to work together as a cooperated unit, to give both motivation and direction. As someone who teaches ‘Advanced Leadership’ you should know that.”

This is hilarious! First you post a phony ‘quote’ from me, now you’re arguing with yourself over its meaning!:rolleyes: What you just posted, above, is some of the most ridiculous dribble you’ve come up with yet! You’ve wasted all that time trying to prove hikers hike in teams (you’re thinking of baseball teams) and still it comes down to, from your own quote: Team - a number of people organized to function cooperatively as a group. So if you want to hike with your ‘team’, fine, but your very own definition, that is a GROUP.

What does the rest of the world call ‘breaking trail’ (not snow), a ‘group’ of hikers, and a point ‘person’?

-Wikipedia: On new fallen snow it is necessary for a snowshoer to "break" a trail
-RockAndPaddle.com: When snowshoeing in a group, walk in a single line behind the leader who's breaking the trail. (The exact same wording can be found at answer.com, adirondacks.com/snowshoeing.html)
-mazamas.org/your/adventure/starts-here/C188/P6/: The point person has a pole in each hand.
-advisor.triphub.com/2006/06/road_trip_plann.html: You can funnel all major and minor questions to the point person (Even non-hiking ‘groups’ use ‘person’, not man)
-Wikipedia: When two groups of hikers meet on a steep trail,…..
-Wikipedia: Hiking in a group increases safety,……………..
-Findahike.com: Sign in to join a group of hikers in your area, or create a hiking, camping or climbing group of your own.....
-greenmountainclub.org-Group Hiking & Camping: The Green Mountain Club (GMC) enjoys seeing school groups, camps, scouts, and other organized groups hiking the Long Trail.
The reason I pointed out these noticeable differences between what I said, and in the lie you posted as a quote from me, was to show that the so called ‘quote’ you claimed I made could not have been made by me and I don’t, and the ENTIRE hiking community, doesn’t use those terms you made up and put into the fake post. If you’re going to fake a post and claim it was by someone else make it sound half-way believable and get the spelling right. That attempt of yours at deception was pretty pathetic.

In all the discussions and arguments I have seen or been in on WB I have never seen anyone stoop so low that they would actually attempt such a feeble attempt to distort the truth by faking a quote. I suppose you have to resort to outright lies because that is the only tool you have at your disposal. The very fact that you would stoop so low makes one question whether anything you say has any truth to it. I can see why others have questioned what you continually brag about. Note that it would help if you were familiar with at least the simplest terms that are use to describe hiking.:rolleyes:

And as far as hiking alone being safer than hiking with a GROUP:

(here’s an account that happened some years ago at Crocker Cirque Campsite in December when the temps were -27 F) “A young New Jersey hiker found unconscious in the snow after being lost for more than two days in the mountains of western Maine died early yesterday at Maine Medical Center.
The hiker, 23-year-old Richard Hammer of Fair Lawn, N.J., left his car at the junction of Route 27 and the Appalachian Trail on Monday morning, apparently intending to hike across Crocker Mountain to the summit of Sugarloaf Mountain and then take a ski tram back down.
A party of about 50 searchers found him near the foot of Crocker Mountain. Mr. Hammer, who had apparently turned off the Appalachian Trail, was found about a half-mile from an unplowed road used primarily by snowmobiles.”

Also read Into The Wild by Jon Krakauer -“When McCandless's innocent mistakes turn out to be irreversible and fatal, he becomes the stuff of tabloid headlines and is dismissed for his naiveté, pretensions, and hubris.”
Change the name in these stories and they could very well describe you, Wolf23000.:D :D

Lone Wolf

01-28-2007, 13:45

you kids need a time-out.:)

Sly

01-28-2007, 13:52

Semantics! Who needs them? This is a hiking forum, not an English comp course.

Wolf - 23000

01-28-2007, 13:53

what do u use for VB?

I used one from Campmor for years before wore out. During my Winter Maine Trip, I used an Equinox that worked fine as well. It's just personal preferences.

Wolf

woodsy

01-28-2007, 16:18

Frosty: Winter hiking/backpacking fascinates me.[QUOTE]

Me too, over the years I've read all the stories I could get my hands on about winter hiking and climbing all over the world . From the early mountaineers to today's high-tech climbers and backpackers. Many tragedies strike even the very best of outdoorsmen/women due to unforseen circumstances or wrong place at wrong time or just bad luck.
Other tragedies could have been prevented with proper knowledge, equiptment and experience. Sometimes being in a group only helps word get out that so and so is buried in an avalanche, fell off the cliff, got washed down the river etc. etc.
Nobody here (that I recall) has been promoting anyone to do a Maine winter AT trek solo. If anything, just the opposite.
I did not know about Wolf's trek before this thread was started but did find it interesting because of living here and trekking around the backcountry and AT in winter months. Yep, seen snow as high as the blazes on the trees and sometimes higher. It's a unique and different world out there in winter and I enjoy it.
The more we share our experiences here, good or bad, right or wrong, the more we all will learn about it ...What to do, what not to do etc. etc.
I'm not encouraging anyone to solo in the winter backcountry. I do it, always have, always will, This is my backyard and know it well.
Sorry this turned into a character assasination on you wolf,I asked, you shared. And your sharing no doubt helped to deter the original poster of this thread, good job!

Wolf - 23000

02-01-2007, 17:48

This is hilarious! First you post a phony ‘quote’ from me, now you’re arguing with yourself over its meaning! What you just posted, above, is some of the most ridiculous dribble you’ve come up with yet! You’ve wasted all that time trying to prove hikers hike in teams (you’re thinking of baseball teams) and still it comes down to, from your own quote: Team - a number of people organized to function cooperatively as a group. So if you want to hike with your ‘team’, fine, but your very own definition, that is a GROUP.

What does the rest of the world call ‘breaking trail’ (not snow), a ‘group’ of hikers, and a point ‘person’?

Thank you for speaking for the rest of the world. The all-might Old Fhart has spoken. I’ll be sure to let everyone else know that and to up date all the Army Field Manuals and change point “man” to point “person” as you have seen fit to do. What an ego!!!

What phony ‘quote’? If you want to retract something, just say so? But don’t B.S. everyone and said I quote you for something you never said. You say break trail, I say break snow. Big Deal. I don’t see any place I miss quote you???

A team is a group as you said but a group does not have to be a team. As someone who teaches ‘advance leadership’, you should know this but I’ll help you out. A group does not mean they are working together, communicating with one another, helping each other; things a team would do. You can have a group of people gathered to watch you climb for example. Are they helping you? Are they belaying you. No. All they are doing is watching you climb. Whoopee!! You may need that stuff to boost your ego but some of us don’t need it.

If I travel with someone, I travel with them as part of my team and used to get everyone up or down. Are they needed … sometimes they can help and sometimes they can cause more problems then they are worth. How many times have you come back later than what you wanted to because someone was taking their sweet old time or spend their time complaining about stupid things rather then walking like they are suppose to. It is any safer traveling with them … of course not. Stupid things like that can put the whole party at risk. That is why I say it again it is no safer traveling with a party over traveling alone.

In reference to your “New Jersey hiker found unconscious …” I have no knowledge of what happen. I do not doubt the story but I don’t know how experience he was, was he hiking alone or not, was he planning on spending the night out or not, what he was traveling with. From the story you posted, the article doesn’t say. I’m going to take an educational guess he was not planning on spending the night out and was on the snowmobiles road as he planned sense the AT does not go over the summit of Sugarloaf Mountain. This is a very poor example simple to prove anything other than you need to be prepared. I have always posted on being prepared and safe. It doesn’t matter whether you are with someone or not you always need be prepared for what you are doing. He traveled unprepared for what he was doing and got in trouble. I was properly prepared to spend the night out and had more experience dealing with the fridge temperatures and made it back safe.

Wolf