View Full Version : Concepts shattered by the Reality of Long Distance Hiking
I have discovered that a number of concepts-opinions from others, really, gleaned from places like Whiteblaze, or a local outfitter- that once determined my gear and equipment selection that would work fine for a shorter section hike, but fell decidedly short on a longer distance one. In other words, what would work and pass for a couple of weeks, failed miserably after a couple of months. If the hike was for just a couple of days I’d guess you could carry most anything and it wouldn’t matter as much. But as the miles and weeks accumulated behind me, and my bones and muscles began to ache, I began to discover a few ‘shattered concepts’ that I thought I’d share:
1. Soap-keep your soap as liquid in little refillable, plastic containers-the much hyped Doc Bonners for hikers comes to mind. That idea came from Whiteblaze, as I recall. This idea didn’t even work well for me on a section hike since I found I had to use most of it up on my first hot shower in days, leaving to little to wash my clothes afterwards. On a longer hike what do you refill it with? Doc Bonners can’t be found in many small convenience type stores with limited selections, or even larger supermarkets if you are fortunate to be in one. An alternative would be shampoo but what do you do with the ¾ of it that wouldn’t go into your little, now-empty, plastic container? Should you toss the empty container and carry the new, heavy bottle of shampoo? After pondering the dilemma some I decided to buy a single bar of soap and began carrying it in a baggy. With that single bar I could easily wash my hands during the day, my body and hair when I occasionally took a hot shower and even my clothes in sinks after the showers and it lasted and lasted for many weeks. (I don’t take enough clothes to require a laundry mat.)
2. Heavy backpacks- I recall years ago being told by my friendly outfitter when I mentioned my desire to start backpacking that I needed to “get this backpack; it’s quite heavy but it ‘carries’ well”. I found it would work for some short hikes but after a few of them I discovered that he had lied. Weight is still weight and any accumulation of it in any quantity is going to be heavy upon the body, no matter what sack you buy to tote it in. There was a substantial difference between that top of the line, 7 1/2 pound, Dana Designs, Terraplane X that the lying outfitter convinced me to buy back then and the 1 ½ pound Gearskin that I use now. There are six differences in fact, in pounds, and that’s empty! I no longer carry that six pound difference up and over mountains anymore.
3. Olive oil- carry olive oil in little refillable, plastic containers. Same as for soap-great idea until you have to refill it. Either get a bigger plastic container to carry to refill or don’t carry it at all. An 8.5 oz is the smallest offering of olive oil I could find. I stopped carrying it.
4. Town clothes- these are redundant items. Never carry upon or in pack or body any duplicate items, unless its socks or just maybe an extra pair of underwear. I quickly culled out my duplicate items as luxury items I could do without, and even stopped carrying things I seldom used like rain pants or long pants or even long underwear, although I did carry the bottoms of the long underwear for a while. It was just not worth it for me to lug their accumulated weight up and over mountains for weeks on end.
Those are a few of my shattered concepts.
Almost There
12-14-2006, 10:28
Your choice, I have seen thru's carry 7lb packs all the way, no complaints.
I like to have an extra shirt and shorts, my choice, but I am also 250lbs and still a very active weigh lifter/athlete.
This is all about HYOH, looks like you have figured out what works for you, that's great, but like I said your pack would not be enough for me, those little packs don't fit my 50inch chest right, so my choice as well.
Glad to see you figured it out for yourself.
Food is another variable that changes with time. Everyone said to carry around about 2 pounds per day but in the beginning I could not even come close to consuming that, even on two week section hikes and I always carried far too much food than I really needed.
Plus, the 'less one day rule' was not used much, which further added to the weight of the food I found I carried, meaning I carried two meals that I didnt need, if I figured my town/resupply stop correctly. For me the 2 pound figure at the beginning of the hike should have been be closer to 1.25 pounds/day, which is what I use now. But after a few weeks its all thrown at the window when you are trying to resupply in the aisles of some small market. Then you consider less each potential food item's weight and more of what it is for you.
It is tough to do but I try and carry less of what I think I'll need rather than more of it-especially for food.
Jim Adams
12-14-2006, 10:34
Dr. Bonners is VERY concentrated. One large bottle to bounce ahead and refill the small one will last the whole trail. If you ran out that quickly, you were using way too much.
leave the underware at home too. it is nice to have town clothes.
hopefulhiker
12-14-2006, 11:36
One thing that I thought I should have was a groundcloth underneath the tarp tent.. I used it for a while.. Also I would put it down in shelters. I carried a smaller piece of plastic i found in a hiker box.. for a while and finally ended up dropping that too.. Also very few people carry the little plastic trowels. One thing that I thought was unnecessary but i appreciated when someone had one was those big water sacks to save trips to the water source...
One thing that I thought I should have was a groundcloth underneath the tarp tent.. I used it for a while.. Also I would put it down in shelters. I carried a smaller piece of plastic i found in a hiker box.. for a while and finally ended up dropping that too.. Also very few people carry the little plastic trowels. One thing that I thought was unnecessary but i appreciated when someone had one was those big water sacks to save trips to the water source...
Groundcloth... never used one, never missed it. Same for the trowel. You can almost always find a short stick to do the same job. The water sack is useful but these days a lotta folks are using Platy bags instead of Nalgene bottles. Those new fangled Lexan Nalgenes weigh over 6 oz. That's 6 oz of container to carry 32 oz of water. Not smart.
Almost There
12-14-2006, 11:50
I like my widemouth Nalgenes...don't really care about the weight. I also carry a bag for camp, believe me some of the water sources straight down hill a quarter to half mile from the shelter, completely makes it worth it not to have to make a trip in the morning. Thanks for calling me stupid though...Terp!:D
Lone Wolf
12-14-2006, 11:54
I like my widemouth Nalgenes...don't really care about the weight. I also carry a bag for camp, believe me some of the water sources straight down hill a quarter to half mile from the shelter, completely makes it worth it not to have to make a trip in the morning. Thanks for calling me stupid though...Terp!:D
That's because you're a real man. A real backpacker like me unlike most weight weenie hikers.
I like my widemouth Nalgenes...don't really care about the weight. I also carry a bag for camp, believe me some of the water sources straight down hill a quarter to half mile from the shelter, completely makes it worth it not to have to make a trip in the morning. Thanks for calling me stupid though...Terp!:D
What can I say. I didn't take this "ultralight" ***** seriously until quite recently. I carried not one but three Nalgene bottles on my last section. The very old one is HDPE and weighs 4 oz. The two "new" ones weighed a tad over 6 oz each. So I was carrying a pound of weight just in water containers. If you're not concerned about weight, is suppose it's not stupid. If you are, it is. :rolleyes:
Dr. Bonners is VERY concentrated. One large bottle to bounce ahead and refill the small one will last the whole trail. If you ran out that quickly, you were using way too much.
leave the underware at home too. it is nice to have town clothes.
I have even experimented with what I had left over of the Doc Bronners at home in the shower and just dont find it to be that concentrated. Was it your actual experience to have used just one bottle of it for the whole trail, for months, washing your hands, body, hair, maybe even some clothes, or was it just for a section or two of it?
Bounce box. I dont like to be confined to a Post Office's location and open times and then be forced to have to time my arrival to match them. So, I have opted against a bounce box. I guess I seem to enjoy the spontaneity of the unknown surprises awaiting my discovery, rather than the known.
Almost There
12-14-2006, 12:06
Edited due to deviation from stated intent of forum
TurkeyBacon
12-14-2006, 12:07
The biggest shattered concept I had was that there is a correct way to hike. What works for one man/woman has little bearing on if it works for YOU.
My other shattered concept was that I thought I knew something before I hiked. Have a completely open mind as you will descover that everything is up for change (gear, milage, food, etc). Not everything got changed but an open mind is a wonderfull thing when you hike.
I'm confused, why pack soap?
TB
Lone Wolf
12-14-2006, 12:11
I'm confused, why pack soap?
TB
Really. NO soaps of any kind are needed while hiking.
DawnTreader
12-14-2006, 12:26
No soaps are necessary, however, i carry a small plastic bottle of bronners.. more for teeth brushing, and laundry, as i detest town stops, and hate laundry mats, i'd rather stay in the woods..
I'm confused, why pack soap?
TB
Because when you step into that hot shower it is most often not part of a hotel room where shampoo & soap is provided but in much more spartan hostels, albergues, outside showers, where you had rather not depend upon the largesse of the person that had just showered before you to have thoughtfully left you his/her remaining little sliver of soap that he/she had used. So, I carry a little bar for me and my clothes;) Its not always convenient to be able to go out and buy some first.
mountain squid
12-14-2006, 13:07
It's easy to see why so many hikers are lured into using Nalgene's. Every outfitter has a section dedicated to them. All shapes, sizes and vibrant colors are represented. Too tempting for most, I suppose...
On the other hand, it has become increasingly difficult to find a "lightweight" water bladder. For some reason, most of them have large, bulky twist tops with large openings. Presumably for easy insertion of ice cubes:confused:. I don't know. I haven't seen many ice machines on the trail:rolleyes:. (Actually, I haven't seen any.)
See you on the trail,
mt squid
Lone Wolf
12-14-2006, 13:20
It's easy to see why so many hikers are lured into using Nalgene's. Every outfitter has a section dedicated to them. All shapes, sizes and vibrant colors are represented. Too tempting for most, I suppose...
On the other hand, it has become increasingly difficult to find a "lightweight" water bladder. For some reason, most of them have large, bulky twist tops with large openings. Presumably for easy insertion of ice cubes:confused:. I don't know. I haven't seen many ice machines on the trail:rolleyes:. (Actually, I haven't seen any.)
See you on the trail,
mt squid
here http://www.stearnsinc.com/NC_ProductsList.aspx?CategoryID=7939898
Lone Wolf
12-14-2006, 13:22
here www.stearnsinc.com/Recreation/NC_ProductsList.aspx?selection=&CatergoryID=7939898
Anyway, it's a 2.5 gallon water bag for $9.99. Weighs nothing
The whole point of Dr Bronners is that it is biodegradable and easier on the environment than regular soap. Also, as someone said it is VERY concentrated, a few drops go a very long way.
I found keeping a regular sized bottle in my bounce box and topping off the 2 oz nalgene bottle in my pack from it every other week or so worked just fine. Same with any other liquid or whatever.
When at hotels or hostels that supplied soap I took full advantage and saved mine for the trail.
Kerosene
12-14-2006, 13:33
Try this link to the 2.5 gallon water carrier (http://www.stearnsinc.com/NC_ProductsList.aspx?CategoryID=7939898), which probably weighs 4-5 ounces if it's similar to the one I own. The neat thing about these carriers (besides fewer trips to the water source) is that you can partially inflate, wrap in your fleece, and use it as a comfy pillow (emptied of water, of course).
Lone Wolf
12-14-2006, 13:34
That's the one. Thanks Kerosene.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-14-2006, 13:36
I've been dragged kicking and screaming to the world of ultralight by fate in the past couple of years - my heart is still with LW and his ilk.
- dropped Dr. Bonner in favor of bar soap and then went to baking soda - it cleans me and my teeth just fine; is bio-safe; is inexpensive; doesn't impart any smell; disrupts bacterial action on synthetic clothing when used as detergent (source of hiker funk) and can be purchased anywhere
- dropped my dinky little Ti cookset and went back to a single large pot and single large frypan (both ancient aluminum backpacking gear). Pot is big enough to cook meals for two hungry dinos and the fry pan is big enough for a side dish, mixing bowl or to actually fry something.
mountain squid
12-14-2006, 14:04
I have found that Platypus products work well for me. I use the Big Zip II for hands free hydration and a Platy bottle for storage. Combined they give me nearly 200oz of water storage for less than 6oz.
See you on the trail,
mt squid
fiddlehead
12-14-2006, 14:16
Try this link to the 2.5 gallon water carrier (http://www.stearnsinc.com/NC_ProductsList.aspx?CategoryID=7939898), which probably weighs 4-5 ounces if it's similar to the one I own. The neat thing about these carriers (besides fewer trips to the water source) is that you can partially inflate, wrap in your fleece, and use it as a comfy pillow (emptied of water, of course).
I use the insert to the above water carrier. I bought the whole thing once and saw someone else (Wolf 2300 perhaps?) using just the plastic insert which is double layer to help prevent leaks. You don't need the green nylon carrier with canvas handle. I've done 4 thru's without it (plus a few himalayan trips), just carry the plastic bag and carry it by the nozzle when going for or returning from water source. (1/2 the weight)
As for soap. I don't carry it either, but when i get to town, i'll buy a bar if there's none available in a hiker box or whatever and leave what i don't use in same place. Dr bonners can leak, and isn't that concentrated (IMO)
KIS
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-14-2006, 14:19
FH - where can you buy the inserts? I did a google search and came up empty.
here is another lite weight water bag. I have used this one many times. Only complaint is that it gets pin holes in it.
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=13743&memberId=12500226
As for soap... a little goes a long way. One of those little "complimentary" motel soap bars weighs < 1 oz and could easily last a week or two, or more. Or just take a "nearly gone" soap bar from home, in a Ziploc.
TurkeyBacon
12-14-2006, 15:11
"The whole point of Dr Bronners is that it is biodegradable and easier on the environment than regular soap."
Sorry, this is clearly getting off the topic...
I would love to hear some kind of evidence to back this up. From my understanding it like getting shot in the arm vs getting shot in the leg. I would rather not get shot. It still harmfull and should be used on dry land when used in the backcountry.
I used the soap that was available at any shower or hiker box. If that wasn't enough, I bought a bar. I never took a hotel/hostel shower without soap. But like I said in my first post, there is no correct way of doing things.
TB
I carry a little dr. B's peppermint just to clean up after pooping on the trail. I don't use TP, I generally just clean up with some moss or leaves and then with water and a little soap...keeps me nice and fresh in that swampy area....
One thing that I thought I should have was a groundcloth underneath the tarp tent.. I used it for a while.. Also I would put it down in shelters. I carried a smaller piece of plastic i found in a hiker box.. for a while and finally ended up dropping that too.....You lay your bag/pad directly onto the ground? Or do you have a tent with a sewn-in floor?
Try this link to the 2.5 gallon water carrier (http://www.stearnsinc.com/NC_ProductsList.aspx?CategoryID=7939898), which probably weighs 4-5 ounces if it's similar to the one I own. The neat thing about these carriers (besides fewer trips to the water source) is that you can partially inflate, wrap in your fleece, and use it as a comfy pillow (emptied of water, of course).
I've had one of these in my kit since day one, and it's always been much appreciated at camp. 4 oz. is about right. It feels flimsy but hasn't failed yet. I'm thinking I may leave it behind in favor of a large Platy next time out. Is that dumb? :-? Of course, one could safely say that this rig was the precursor to Platy.
Well I can't say there is something that one definitively must have or not have.
However, I would personally say,
forget the soap. But bring sanitizer. 2 oz bottles are good. Sanitzers require no water to work. I would never backpack without hand sanitzer if I could help it (tooth paste and brush ditto). That is higene!
town clothes could be left home unless you want something clean to wear while everything else is in the laundry machine.
I don't know about the 1.5 pound pack. How much water or warm clothes are you going to be able to carry in that? you may be a speed or high milage hiker in which case I could understand it. Myself, I am a relaxed hiker who likes a few comforts along the way. I carried a 5 pound pack the whole way and have no regrets. How about warm clothes?
One thing I would personally be curiuos to know... is any one here a hiker who carries a very light pack (say under 30 pounds including food and water) yet STILL does moderate milage (under say 12 mpd or less) most of the time? It seems to me that those who carry the really light packs (under 3000 cc, 25 pounds or less) are the running types that want to do big (20 plus) miles.
Anyone remember postcard for example? He carried a real light pack but was always racing (so it seemed to me). More power to him but that's not my style. I did try reducing weight in the mid atlantic, but I went heavy again in ME for convenience and comfort.
Lastly, I would add that on a very long distance hike (like the AT) one has the time to try out various combinations of gear and determine what one likes or does not like. And fiurthermore, one has the chance to get in better shape so that a 35-40 pound pack will become far easier to carry than if one was just out for a series of weekend hikes or very short section hikes. That is why my 50 pound fully loaded pack was easier to carry through the 100 mile wilderness than it was out of Hot Springs.
David
One thing I would personally be curiuos to know... is any one here a hiker who carries a very light pack (say under 30 pounds including food and water) yet STILL does moderate milage (under say 12 mpd or less) most of the time? It seems to me that those who carry the really light packs (under 3000 cc, 25 pounds or less) are the running types that want to do big (20 plus) miles.
I have, up 'till now, used a Camp Trails external frame pack weighing 4 lbs 4 oz. It's ancient (as am I.) My "base" pack weight has always been about 22-24 lbs.
Next time out, I'll be doing it with a 32 oz. pack (Granite Gear Vapor Trail)
and a base weight of about 15 lbs. The new rig is for late summer/early fall only. I'll be carrying less food, and stopping for resupply more often.
Traditionally I average 11-13 miles per day long-term, but I can easily do 16+ mile days (with the old rig) when the pack is light, near the end of a resupply cycle. So I'm hoping, with the "new" rig, to kick the long-term average up to about 15 miles per day. I have no need or intention of moving any faster than that. I'd be very happy with a long-term increase of about 3 or 4 miles per day from "lightening up."
My washing material was a slice of Ivory cut from a six ounce bar I kept in a bounce box. It served well for dishes, scrubbing a tee shirt or bandanna on the trail, as well as body parts. It's also biodegradeable -- but so are all modern soaps and detergents.
Dr. Bronners (sp?) also comes in cake form, but Ivory is cheaper, handier, and okay. The only liquid I carry is water and a small plastic bottle of olive oil. You're right. No one sells it in a convenient backpacking size, but it does pack more calories than most anything else in my pack, and adds flavor to meals, so I usually buy the smallest bottle I can find in trail-side stores and make the best of it.
Weary
Appalachian Tater
12-14-2006, 16:53
Ivory soap bars are made of animal fat.
Ivory soap bars are made of animal fat.
So? All soap used to. My grandmother raised my four cousins using scrap fat from beef and pork and lye.
Edited due to deviation from stated intent of forum
Appalachian Tater
12-14-2006, 17:43
So?
Feel free to rub animal fat all over your body before going out in the woods to sleep!
Yummy?
Yes, porcupines and mice will eat it, too.
It's not actually animal fat, it's just made from animal fat. There's other things in there too.
Lone Wolf
12-14-2006, 17:46
vegetable oil
Maybe I'll never be an ultralighter, but I do carry a ground sheet. It goes under my tent when I'm tenting, and under my sleeping bag other nights. I think it keeps my bag cleaner.
I carry 2 oz of Camp suds, mainly for dishes. When you use it a drop at a time, a little goes a long way.
I wash clothes at a laundrymat, and buy detergent then.
I carry one HDPE Nalgene, because it doesn't break, and doesn't leak. I carry a Nalgene collapsible canteen so that I can make one trip to the water source and have enough for the night and get started the next day.
To each their own.
On the topic of olive oil, here is a link to Borges Extra Virgin Olive Oil in 30 ml (one ounce) individual serving packets.
Skidsteer
12-14-2006, 19:36
On the topic of olive oil, here is a link to Borges Extra Virgin Olive Oil in 30 ml (one ounce) individual serving packets.
Link?......
generoll
12-14-2006, 19:54
here's one.
http://www.naturespharmaceuticals.com/Catalog_i735609.html?catId=29469
BigFoot2002
12-14-2006, 20:03
For water bottles, a couple of empty liter Pepsi bottles are all I need. When they get a little worn, I recycle the old and treat myself to a new cold one.
Nalgene - Heavy, expensive, empty when you buy it. Pepsi - Light, cheap, contains wonderful cold beverage when I buy it.
On soap, I agree with Lone Wolf. I don't need soap. I cook my dinner and eat out of the pot. Scrub the pot with half a plastic scouring pad. Rinse. What is the next thing I will do with my pot? Boil water in it. So what's to worry about?
When I get to town I check the hiker box before heading to the store.
A 12 pack of scouring pads is a buck at a dollar store. When mine gets a bit old, I buy a pack, cut them in half, and hiker box the rest.
A medium size bottle of olive oil (you don't need extra virgin unless you like the taste of olive oil in your Lipton's) is a few cents more than the smallest bottle. Refill my bottle (I like a small bottled-water bottle for this) Hiker box the rest.
When I'm at the dollar store, I get a couple bars of soap and a bottle of shampoo. I leave the rest at the hostel when I'm done.
Contribute a bit to the trail community around you. You will be paid back many times over.
Kerosene
12-14-2006, 20:33
One thing I would personally be curiuos to know... is any one here a hiker who carries a very light pack (say under 30 pounds including food and water) yet STILL does moderate milage (under say 12 mpd or less) most of the time?My average in the Mid-Atlantic states for 7-10 day section hikes was 13-14 miles before I cut down on my pack weight. In 2001 I cut my pack weight from 40 pounds to 30, mostly by replacing my 8-pound Dana Terraplane pack.
Since then, in Virginia and south I've been averaging more like 15-18 mpd. Certainly some of that is due to the condition of the trail, but I just feel better at the end of the day, even if I end up doing 15-20 miles. It really hit home in Georgia, where I averaged over 15 mpd (12,12,12,18,18,19) without really pushing myself very hard. You don't have to do big miles, but whatever mileage you do you will feel better at the end of the day with a lighter pack.
So?
Feel free to rub animal fat all over your body before going out in the woods to sleep! .
No. Take an elementary science course. That's why you add lye. It changes animal fat to soap -- as humans have known for the past several thousand years. Get with the program. Early experimentors discovered that wood ashes and fat produced a substance that dissolved both dirt and grease. Somewhere along the line, they named their discovery soap.
As science developed a few discovered that wood ashes and water produced what we now call lye, a concentrated version of wood ashes and water.
It's a simple process. I've done it several times. Though I discovered a $2 can of lye is a lot simpler than seeping water through hard wood ashes. The recipe is on the can -- or used to be.
"Who knows what evil ... (ignorance) has wrought."
Weary
For water bottles, a couple of empty liter Pepsi bottles are all I need. When they get a little worn, I recycle the old and treat myself to a new cold one.
Nalgene - Heavy, expensive, empty when you buy it. Pepsi - Light, cheap, contains wonderful cold beverage when I buy it.
On soap, I agree with Lone Wolf. I don't need soap. I cook my dinner and eat out of the pot. Scrub the pot with half a plastic scouring pad. Rinse. What is the next thing I will do with my pot? Boil water in it. So what's to worry about?
When I get to town I check the hiker box before heading to the store.
A 12 pack of scouring pads is a buck at a dollar store. When mine gets a bit old, I buy a pack, cut them in half, and hiker box the rest.
A medium size bottle of olive oil (you don't need extra virgin unless you like the taste of olive oil in your Lipton's) is a few cents more than the smallest bottle. Refill my bottle (I like a small bottled-water bottle for this) Hiker box the rest.
When I'm at the dollar store, I get a couple bars of soap and a bottle of shampoo. I leave the rest at the hostel when I'm done.
Contribute a bit to the trail community around you. You will be paid back many times over.
All great advice. Though I sometimes substitute Ivory Liquid dishwashing detergent for the soap -- and the shampoo. Consumer Reports once did a blind test of shampoos. Ivory Liquid registered in the middle of the pack.
Remember. Sometimes we buy new products. Sometimes we buy old products with new names and unexpected uses.
Weary
One thing I would personally be curiuos to know... is any one here a hiker who carries a very light pack (say under 30 pounds including food and water) yet STILL does moderate milage (under say 12 mpd or less) most of the time? It seems to me that those who carry the really light packs (under 3000 cc, 25 pounds or less) are the running types that want to do big (20 plus) miles.
ME!!! I got my packweight way down but averaged 12 miles a day and only got in a few +20 days my whole thruhike.
Edited due to deviation from stated intent of forum
BigFoot2002
12-14-2006, 23:25
Thanks Weary. I've also showered on the trail with soaps I wouldn't have at home. Body Wash for the hair, shampoo all over - it gets you clean.
When I'm at a laundromat on the trail, instead of buying a small box of soap from the vending machine, I'll get an empty soap jug or two out of the trash, fill it with water, and pour the suds into the machine. Plenty of soap for the small load I'm doing.
If there isn't one laying around, I'll offer some change to one of the regulars for a half cup of soap. I'll also resupply my dropper bottle (for water treatment) this way.
I forgot to mention, although I don't carry soap, I don't hike without my Purell hand sanitizer. After the privy, before eating. Got that advice from No Pain. I top my little bottle off in town, Hiker Box the rest.
minnesotasmith
12-15-2006, 03:14
I've been dragged kicking and screaming to the world of ultralight by fate in the past couple of years - my heart is still with LW and his ilk.
- dropped Dr. Bonner in favor of bar soap and then went to baking soda - it cleans me and my teeth just fine; is bio-safe; is inexpensive; doesn't impart any smell; disrupts bacterial action on synthetic clothing when used as detergent (source of hiker funk) and can be purchased anywhere
- dropped my dinky little Ti cookset and went back to a single large pot and single large frypan (both ancient aluminum backpacking gear). Pot is big enough to cook meals for two hungry dinos and the fry pan is big enough for a side dish, mixing bowl or to actually fry something.
Had a dentist warn me it was too abrasive to be used as a toothpaste substitute for any length of time.
Try this link to the 2.5 gallon water carrier (http://www.stearnsinc.com/NC_ProductsList.aspx?CategoryID=7939898), which probably weighs 4-5 ounces if it's similar to the one I own. The neat thing about these carriers (besides fewer trips to the water source) is that you can partially inflate, wrap in your fleece, and use it as a comfy pillow (emptied of water, of course).
I have always used one of these with the dbl. liner inside that came with it and I replace at my local outfitter after bleach cleaning mine a million times ! I would not leave home without it. One trip to water source, hangs nicely and has easy to use spigot and weighs hardly anything, collapses to nothing so takes hardly any pack space. I have never used it as a pillow tho, mine always has water in it for next morning ! Good idea tho, thanks.
RAT
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-15-2006, 06:34
Could the bladder be used as a pillow with the water inside if covered with fleece or would that be too cold?
Had a dentist warn me it was too abrasive to be used as a toothpaste substitute for any length of time.
Eh? There's no abrasive in baking power. It's sodium bicarbonate -- a salt.
Could the bladder be used as a pillow with the water inside if covered with fleece or would that be too cold?
If it's like the one I own, I wouldn't try. The bag inside is made of pretty thin polyethylene. Substantially thinner than the stuff that Platys are made out of. Besides with, a pillow filled with water could be bad news in lots of other ways. :eek:
fiddlehead
12-15-2006, 08:30
I wouldn't do it (above) for 2 reasons: the valve on the outlet has been known to leak (especially when they get older), and it would be too much extra (water) to heat up.
I agree with Rat that i wouldn't go hiking without it. I already lost the cap, (like i said before i don't use the carrier bag, just the insert) and found that you don't need the cap. It is the heaviest part and you can just carry the plastic insert bag back to camp from the water source by the outlet and then prop it up by a rock. I can't imagine a lighter water carrier. With this and a pepsi one litre bottle, you have all you need. Especially on the AT where water is plentiful. I don't carry water during the day, just camel up at the good sources. I've found that if i drink enough, say 2 litres, i can go for 6-10 miles before i'm thirsty again. I know of no spots except PA-CT in the summer where you don't see water every 6-10 miles. (On a hot and dry summer, i have been known to carry 2 one litre pepsi bottles) anyway, that's my 2 cents on the lightweight carrier and what you really need out there.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-15-2006, 08:59
Thanks for the info and cautions.
Jim Adams
12-15-2006, 09:06
ok, heres a tip to all of you water bag users.
i have used these bags for years while wilderness canoeing and they are just about indestructable. you know they are finally worn out when the spout/cap starts to constantly leak.
now, to save even more weight for backpacking, cut open the seam on the side of the nylon bag from the top to about 1/2 way down the bag. remove the plastic bladder and replace it with a bladder from a BOX of wine. these bladders are made from a heavy mylar and are about 1/2 the weight of the plastic bladder but they are also easier to damage. i would not use one without the nylon bag as protection. you can also buy smaller wine boxes ie: smaller bladder and save even more weight if you want.
lastly, if you enjoy a bit of alcohol while out there, this set up is totally un-noticed in areas where alcohol is prohibited. i'm not one for usually defying the law but most areas in the outdoors where alcohol is banned is not because of the alcohol, it is usually because of the a**holes that leave cans and bottles in the area.
geek
Eh? There's no abrasive in baking power. It's sodium bicarbonate -- a salt.
So is sodium chloride. rub some over and over on the same spot on your skin. give us a report if it's not abrasive.:cool:
Baking Soda/Toothpaste - Its light, easy to use and carry and if the dentist bit in above post is correct, its not being used forever, just the hike's duration-even for many months. Besides, most l;ikely that same dentist used it in the polishing part of his teeth cleaning twice a year for his/her patients. Mine certainly does, anyway.
baking Soda- Its a heck of a lot lighter & better tasting than anything else I have found for those few times I remember to brush my teeth while hiking. That, along with most other areas of 'general hygiene' begin to lapse for most of us, I suspect. Thats another reason to perhaps disregard the abrasive caution against using it, since you may not be doing it after every meal.
But Hike it your way;)
So is sodium chloride. rub some over and over on the same spot on your skin. give us a report if it's not abrasive.:cool:
http://www.crest.com/products/bakingSoda.jsp
Eh? There's no abrasive in baking power. It's sodium bicarbonate -- a salt.
And we all know that salt isn't an abrasive. That's why I put it on my icy steps -- so I can slip down easily.
Maybe baking soda isn't abrasive after it is dissolved in water. Until then it is abrasive, as is salt before it melts the ice and becomes a liquid.
Weary
Here is a Google of baking soda, called "magical" for all the ways it can be used-and not usually compared much to common table salt:
http://www.chemistryquestion.com/English/Questions/ChemistryInDailyLife/4c_baking_soda.html
Its quite a mild abrasive it seems
And we all know that salt isn't an abrasive. That's why I put it on my icy steps -- so I can slip down easily.
Someone give me a proper cite that shows that brushing with baking soda is harmful, either long term or short term. Crest makes a toothpaste containing it. Arm And Hammer has a big page touting its virtues, for that specific purpose. I suspect the ADA (if not the FDA) would be down on them like a ton of bricks if they were both wrong.
icemanat95
12-15-2006, 13:01
The virtue of Dana Designs packs is and has always been uncompromising ruggedness and durability. They are made for the most rugged and demanding environments. They are probably overkill for the AT...nevertheless, in 1995 Dana Designs packs were one of the more popular brands on the AT, and few people complained about them at all.
I carried a Terraplane and it did yeoman service for me. I wouldn't do that again, I'd go with my smaller Bridger pack and carry much lighter, but I think the Terraplane is an excellent pack. The superlight packs used by many today would die a quick and painful death under some of the conditions I've hiked under (cross-country, no trails, 10 day loads, lots of scrambling, etc.). My Terraplane shrugs off those conditions and asks for more. Under those conditions the weight of the Terraplane is entirely worth it.
I also like my Nalgene lexan bottles (I carry 2) I've tried Camelbacks and Platypus systems and find them a bit of a pain. Good for biking and hunting and other situations where you can regularly access cleaning equipment and drying racks, but less useful when long term daily use is in the plan. I also like to know exactly how much water I have left...this is impossible or at least very difficult with most bladder systems. You have to take your pack off and get the bladder out. For someone who drinks as much water as I do, this is a serious pain in the arse.
Jim Adams
12-15-2006, 14:05
icemanat95,
i use a G Pack now but i used a Bridger on my 2002 thru and loved it. very good pack and although it has 2000+miles on it, it will probably still be going strong when my G is long gone.
LostInSpace
12-15-2006, 14:27
I love my Terraplane LTW. I've just learned to carry less and lighter stuff in it.
Footslogger
12-15-2006, 14:34
[quote=icemanat95;286065]The virtue of Dana Designs packs is and has always been uncompromising ruggedness and durability. They are made for the most rugged and demanding environments. They are probably overkill for the AT...nevertheless, in 1995 Dana Designs packs were one of the more popular brands on the AT, and few people complained about them at all.
====================================
I think the same could be said for the heavier Gregory packs. I have a Shasta model that weighs over 7.5 lbs empty but will carry 60 - 70 lbs comfortably. Plus it has been to hell and back and still has life left in it.
I now carry a pack that weighs 2 lbs and carries 26 lbs comfortably and that's where I intend to stay. But I'm holding on to that Shasta, just in case ...
'Slogger
Jim Adams
12-15-2006, 14:40
footslogger,
you hiked in 2003, the year of the boat (LOL). which pack did you use in all that rain? if it was the light pack how did it hold up? just wondering...haven't used my G Pack long distance in poor weather yet.
geek
I think the same could be said for the heavier Gregory packs. I have a Shasta model that weighs over 7.5 lbs empty but will carry 60 - 70 lbs comfortably. Plus it has been to hell and back and still has life left in it.
Anybody remember the Mountainsmith Frostfire? Back in the early 1990s, I was desperately trying to ditch my Camp Trails external frame pack and to discover the joys and wonders of internal frame packs. So I let some "associate" at REI talk me into the Mountainsmith. It was built like a tank and weighed 7+ lbs if it weighed a gram. I used it once or twice, and then it sat on a shelf in my basement for 12 or 13 years collecting dust. (I kept on using the Camp Trails.) Amazing conclusion to the story... just a few months ago, I returned it to REI. I didn't get full credit for it, but about half what I paid... and of course bought a bunch of new gear as well :D.
Kerosene
12-15-2006, 14:53
I've kept my Dana Designs Terraplane X just in case I ever need it for a winter expedition with a lot of extra bulky gear, but my first option up to 35 pounds would be to try to squeeze it into my Granite Gear Nimbus Ozone with extension collar.
Footslogger
12-15-2006, 14:56
footslogger,
you hiked in 2003, the year of the boat (LOL). which pack did you use in all that rain? if it was the light pack how did it hold up? just wondering...haven't used my G Pack long distance in poor weather yet.
geek
====================================
As years go ...it WAS a very wet one !! I started with the Reality (Gregory) and when I got to Pearsiburg I switched out all my gear/clothing and realized I had a lot of room to spare. Hitched into Blacksburg and bought a Granite Gear Vapor Trail -- never looked back. Used a plastic trash compactor bag and never had a stitch of wet gear or clothing.
'Slogger
RedneckRye
12-16-2006, 00:40
Anybody remember the Mountainsmith Frostfire? Back in the early 1990s, I was desperately trying to ditch my Camp Trails external frame pack and to discover the joys and wonders of internal frame packs. So I let some "associate" at REI talk me into the Mountainsmith. It was built like a tank and weighed 7+ lbs if it weighed a gram. I used it once or twice, and then it sat on a shelf in my basement for 12 or 13 years collecting dust. (I kept on using the Camp Trails.) Amazing conclusion to the story... just a few months ago, I returned it to REI. I didn't get full credit for it, but about half what I paid... and of course bought a bunch of new gear as well :D.
I realize that REI has the policy that they will pretty much take anything back for whatever reason, but where is the point that this gets ridiculous? A pack sitting in the basement for a decade and a half? Gear that has been used for an entire thru-hike and then returned just because it wore out in 6 months? The same pair of trail runners returned over and over as they wear out?
As I sat at the Saufley's on the PCT (450 miles north of the MEX/CA border) for several days waiting for a partially torn MCL to heal, I saw hiker after hiker after hiker head into the REI and ABUSE their return policy. Several folks freely admitted (probably not to REI) that "Well, I didn't buy it there, but that is there policy."
minnesotasmith
12-16-2006, 02:49
The virtue of Dana Designs packs is and has always been uncompromising ruggedness and durability. They are made for the most rugged and demanding environments. They are probably overkill for the
I carried a Dana pack from Amicalola to Waynesboro on my thruhike this year and regretted it. There were multiple design flaws in the straps, which kept ripping out after as little as three days on the Trail. Marmot (bought out Dana) would not send me fixed ones, even when I told them exactly what the problems were, only repeatedly sending me off-the shelf straps with the exact same problems. I switched to a Gregory at Waynesboro and never regretted it (against the advice of the Mountain Crossings people at Neel Gap, I might add, who twice set me up with packs that didn't hold up under reasonable usage). Whatever Dana used to make, IMO they mainly make paper-mache cr*p now. Excepting only their useful side pouches (they call them "ribs"), I don't use any of their stuff, and never will again.
IMO they mainly make paper-mache cr*p now. Excepting only their useful side pouches (they call them "ribs"), I don't use any of their stuff, and never will again.
Maybe if you stop trying to stuff 70bs of **** in a 50lb bag, you'll have better results!
I've kept my Dana Designs Terraplane X just in case I ever need it for a winter expedition with a lot of extra bulky gear, but my first option up to 35 pounds would be to try to squeeze it into my Granite Gear Nimbus Ozone with extension collar.
Your Dana Terraplane X was most likely like mine was, made in the USA before outsourcing greed downgraded the quality while being made outside the country. I sold it on EBay for $350 when I finally realized it was just to heavy & started going lighter. It is huge & I dont winter hike, but the 1 1/2 pound gearskin will expand like mad:D
I realize that REI has the policy that they will pretty much take anything back for whatever reason, but where is the point that this gets ridiculous? A pack sitting in the basement for a decade and a half?
Just for the record: returning that old MountainSmith pack was actually suggested by the REI sales associate, while I was shopping for a new one, about four months ago. The idea wouldn't have occured to me otherwise. I'd long ago written it off... as a sort of object lesson on how not to buy hiking gear.
Your Dana Terraplane X was most likely like mine was, made in the USA before outsourcing greed downgraded the quality while being made outside the country.
I have the American made 10th Anniversity Terraplane and carried it on the AT (3000 mi) and PCT (2700) before finally settling with a ULA P-2.
I think Dana Design started going downhill when they sold to K-2. Let's hope Marmot doesn't suffer the same fate.
http://danadesign.com/
minnesotasmith
12-16-2006, 12:38
Even when I only had 50 pounds in my Dana pack, the straps still came apart, over and over. As I mentioned earlier, there were specific design flaws as the root cause.
LostInSpace
12-16-2006, 12:38
Lots of companies in the outdoor products arena change hands, particularly privately held companies. The large corporations are always looking to acquire successful companies. Private ownership and control are likely what made them successful in the first place. This year Columbia Sportswear bought Montrail. I would not be surprised at a quality slide there either.
ahodlofski
12-17-2006, 16:18
I wanted to point out that Dr. Bronners does make a nice bar soap too...in case you felt you needed to use a bar...but I've used the little liquid soap bottle for several days at at time (haven't done the long trail trip yet) and barely used any of it...use the peppermint..its tasty and makes you think you're using more than you are...i imagine the small bottle would last for several weeks if used even slightly conservatively.
Plus...shouldnt you use soap to clean up dishes/ cooking vessels? we always did...just a little to make us feel better perhaps..lol
Spirit Walker
12-17-2006, 17:56
We don't use soap on the trail. Even biodegradable soap takes a long time to degrade. I usually boil water to make cocoa or apple cider or tea - and a little of that water gets used to wash the dishes. If it is too hot for a hot drink, I just wash the dishes with cold water, then in the morning when I make coffee I use some boiling water to sterilize the spoons and bowls. It has worked well on many a long hike. On the AT I used a little liquid soap to wash myself (far from the water source, of course) but I haven't used it since. I still carry a little soap in case of injury, but only use it in town if I'm some place that doesn't have a laudromant.
We don't use soap on the trail. Even biodegradable soap takes a long time to degrade. I usually boil water to make cocoa or apple cider or tea - and a little of that water gets used to wash the dishes. If it is too hot for a hot drink, I just wash the dishes with cold water, then in the morning when I make coffee I use some boiling water to sterilize the spoons and bowls. It has worked well on many a long hike. On the AT I used a little liquid soap to wash myself (far from the water source, of course) but I haven't used it since. I still carry a little soap in case of injury, but only use it in town if I'm some place that doesn't have a laudromant.
You'll have to search long and hard to find an ordinary body or laundry soap these days that isn't biodegradeable -- and the process is pretty fast. Modern sewage treatment plants essentially do in a controlled environment what nature does in the natural environment.
I doubt if the most sophisicated scientist could find where a hiker washed up with a bar of Dr. Bronners or Ivory a day or two later, especially in the summer. Things work more slowly in winter.
Weary
Blue Jay
12-18-2006, 00:11
Edited due to deviation from stated intent of forum
saimyoji
12-18-2006, 00:18
Edited due to deviation from stated intent of forum
LostInSpace
12-18-2006, 01:12
Edited due to deviation from stated intent of forum
I wanted to point out that Dr. Bronners does make a nice bar soap too...in case you felt you needed to use a bar...but I've used the little liquid soap bottle for several days at at time (haven't done the long trail trip yet) and barely used any of it...use the peppermint..its tasty and makes you think you're using more than you are...i imagine the small bottle would last for several weeks if used even slightly conservatively.
Plus...shouldnt you use soap to clean up dishes/ cooking vessels? we always did...just a little to make us feel better perhaps..lol
I almost never use soap to clean my single pot while hiking. I eat most of the contents, clean with finger occasionally, rinse pot with water occasionally water, air dry when I can or put it up wet. Soap (bar only)is for body or clothes in town.
ahodlofski
12-18-2006, 16:02
Personally I dont mind when people return stuff to REI for weird reasons...i've gotten some GREAT deals on two or three year old gear...which was almost unused if used at all...
I bought a REI Northstar backpack a couple years ago for $50 i'm not sure it was ever used really..just had some dirty spots on the bottom.
You shouldnt return worn out underwear though. Thats what I've been told.
Personally I dont mind when people return stuff to REI for weird reasons...i've gotten some GREAT deals on two or three year old gear...which was almost unused if used at all..
I'm still skiing in a pair of Lange boots that I got at the REI "bargain bin" in the early 1990s. They killed my feet for the first few years, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna ditch 'em now.
ahodlofski
12-18-2006, 16:56
SEE!!! What a little pain if its CHEAP??? LOL...that bargain bin has been a source for "almost perfects" for years... but i do have to admit...some people do push the return policy a bit...I joked about it..but i do know someone who returned worn out underwear.
I feel the same about the northstar..its not the lightest pack...but it was really cheap and gosh darn it...its mine now. That and i think it likes me.
saimyoji
12-19-2006, 14:13
Edited due to deviation from stated intent of forum
Edited due to deviation from stated intent of forum