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1Pint
12-17-2006, 19:51
I'm looking at doing some long weekend hikes in SNP between now and the end of February. Do you think I can get away with using my 3-season tent?

Thanks,
Laura

Jack Tarlin
12-17-2006, 20:30
I think you'll be fine in SNP, assuming you've got a good sleeping bag and appropriate clothes. You might also want oto consider a thicker (or even additional) sleeping pad, and make sure you have a good groundclothof some sort. I'd also exercise some caution in where I PUT the tent, i.e., I'd make a special effort to try and set up in an area relatively sheltered from the wind, and perhaps under tree cover if more than light snow is anticipated. A well-made 3-season tent should be OK for Sheanandoah Park, unless you run into some really crazy weather.

Jim Adams
12-17-2006, 20:34
three season is fine. if the snow is flying hard, brush it off of the tent every hour but you should be fine. the biggest difference between 3 and 4 season is the support against wind and snow load.
geek

Mother Nature
12-17-2006, 21:37
Be sure to check with the authorities in the SNP. Portions of the AT are in very bad shape from the recent ice storms.

Someone from the area can chime in here and let us know if the AT has been reopened.

MN

weary
12-17-2006, 23:06
I'm looking at doing some long weekend hikes in SNP between now and the end of February. Do you think I can get away with using my 3-season tent? Thanks, Laura
Yes, yes, yes. (Three yeses are needed to thwart the minimum post rule)

Skyline
12-17-2006, 23:50
As of a couple days ago, crews had the AT open between US522 (near Front Royal) southward to about Powell Gap in the South District. I'm guessing this past weekend they got even more open. They seem to be concentrating first efforts on the AT.

Some side trails are fine, others not passable without a whole lot of extra effort. I do not have a current list for either.

This was one crazy ice storm that took place just before Thanksgiving. Some places were untouched, others totally decimated. The western side of the Blue Ridge took it harder than the eastern side. Higher elevations got slammed the worst.

There are still a few SOBOs who have been in the Park the past couple weeks. Hearty souls for sure.

A three-season tent should be fine, but keep an eye on the weather forecast. If it looks like heavy snow, head for a shelter. There will probably be room.

JimSproul
12-17-2006, 23:56
If you have snow pack. A bigger issue than snow load can be the implact of your body heat UNDER your tent. Using something under sleeping bad that is reflective is a good idea. I use a slice of a "space blanket" in my bivy. Another popular item are those aluminized windsheld shades for you car. The Complete Walker IV has a good discussion.

Those very popular single wall tents (I use one myself Spring/summer/fall) can be a problem. Pick a double wall if possible. Not having a liner of some kind to catch the frost if you get a hard freeze can make for an exciting morning.

The old controversial topic of using a vapor barrier in your sleeping bag is something you might explore. That can start a heated discussion around the old camp fire like asking about the best stove.

Winter is one of the best times to be in the backcountry. The cold is managable if you plan ahead. It is not something to gamble with. An extra 5-10 pounds of gear and/or food could be enough to keep it an adventure even if you get to stay an extra day.

Sorry to ramble, I topic I enjoy, not much of an issue since I moved to Texas from New England.

LostInSpace
12-18-2006, 00:51
As Skyline said, "a three-season tent should be fine, but keep an eye on the weather forecast." I remember a number of years back that some hikers got stranded in SNP in the Presidents' Day weekend nor'easter. I can't remember how many feet of snow came down, but I would not have liked being in a three-season tent that weekend.

TJ aka Teej
12-18-2006, 02:03
Winter's the "fourth" season. Better be safe than sorry, Laura. Ask around and see if you can borrow or rent the proper tent.

bigcranky
12-18-2006, 08:13
On the one hand, I've sat out some pretty good storms under a tarp, so I'm not really one to talk. But a four-season shelter doesn't have to be a heavy, bomb-proof tent. One of the pyramid shelters like the Megalite or the Kiva provides plenty of space for two or three people, and holds up well to winter weather. Site selection is important, of course. The Megalite weighs less than 3 pounds with the pole.

The standard disclaimer for winter hiking advice applies -- don't take anything I or anyone else says as the truth, or you could die.

weary
12-18-2006, 11:11
Winter's the "fourth" season. Better be safe than sorry, Laura. Ask around and see if you can borrow or rent the proper tent.
I backpacked most winters in Maine between 1970 and now, often three or four trips per winter. I've used tarps, a Sierra Designs Clip Flashlight, a Moss Starlite (?), AMC self-service huts, Baxter Park bunkhouses, and shelters. Temperatures ranged from 20 degrees F to minus 32 below. So far I've had no problems. I'll tell my wife to be sure to let you know if sometime I fail to return safely.

My favorite winter tent is the Moss. It's easy to put up, and seems to be absolutely immune to high winds like gusts to 70 mph. The Moss factory in Camden Maine stopped making it a few years ago and if I remember rightly sold the design to REI.

Weary

astrogirl
12-18-2006, 16:57
As of a couple days ago, crews had the AT open between US522 (near Front Royal) southward to about Powell Gap in the South District. I'm guessing this past weekend they got even more open. They seem to be concentrating first efforts on the AT.

Some side trails are fine, others not passable without a whole lot of extra effort. I do not have a current list for either.

This was one crazy ice storm that took place just before Thanksgiving. Some places were untouched, others totally decimated. The western side of the Blue Ridge took it harder than the eastern side. Higher elevations got slammed the worst.

I only live 10 miles from the park, and we got nuthin' here. I mean, I don't even recall this!

It's the magic of elevation, I suppose. I guess we just got rain here at 1100 ft.

1Pint
12-18-2006, 21:09
Thanks for all your feedback. My schedule is flexible enough that I will only go when the weather forecast is decent, just to improve my chances of having an enjoyable hike. I hadn't planned on taking my space blanket, but I'll throw it in the pack as suggested and place it under my pad at night.

Thanks again all. I appreciate your thoughts!

Skyline
12-18-2006, 22:00
I only live 10 miles from the park, and we got nuthin' here. I mean, I don't even recall this!

It's the magic of elevation, I suppose. I guess we just got rain here at 1100 ft.

Same here just north of Luray in the valley, tho high winds a week or so later brought down a big tree limb in my yard.

Cookerhiker
12-19-2006, 20:35
I'm looking at doing some long weekend hikes in SNP between now and the end of February. Do you think I can get away with using my 3-season tent?

Thanks,
Laura

I agree with the others that you'll be OK. I did 3 days/2 nights in SNP last February in snow and stayed in shelters so I didn't have the benefit of the 4 sides of a tent. Even the second night at HighTop Hut (one of the highest in SNP), I was fine on about a 20 degree night.

1Pint
12-19-2006, 21:09
I agree with the others that you'll be OK. I did 3 days/2 nights in SNP last February in snow and stayed in shelters so I didn't have the benefit of the 4 sides of a tent. Even the second night at HighTop Hut (one of the highest in SNP), I was fine on about a 20 degree night.

Cool. Thanks. I'd intended to go this coming weekend, but my dog's having health issues (he's 13) and so I'm sticking close to home. Hopefully I'll be able to head out for MLK weekend and Pres' Day weekend.

wacocelt
12-19-2006, 21:12
I'm looking at doing some long weekend hikes in SNP between now and the end of February. Do you think I can get away with using my 3-season tent?

Thanks,
Laura

Without a doubt. you'll do fine.

Squeegee_Joe
12-21-2006, 14:03
I'm taking a three-season tent with me for a quick trip the day after Christmas, but it's also hevy-duty.

Also, there could well be some blowdowns left from the ice storm, or new blowdowns from the quick change in temps and the currently forecast rain.
According to the Blue and White Crew's database, there's a blowdown 4 minutes north of Tanner's Ridge Fire Road. (The end of my section.)

I'm packing my folding corona saw so I can be sure my section is clear. I'm also going to try to be sure it's clear down to the Bearfence Hut. If I'm feeling energetic, I'll also clear from the cemetary up to Big Meadows.

1Pint
12-21-2006, 14:11
.....

I'm packing my folding corona saw so I can be sure my section is clear. I'm also going to try to be sure it's clear down to the Bearfence Hut. If I'm feeling energetic, I'll also clear from the cemetary up to Big Meadows.

That's something I never thought of doing, but I like it. Is it cool for an untrained trailmaintainer (aka just a hiker) such as myself to take a saw along and clear some trail if I get energetic? I'd wanted to sign up for a weekend trailcrew but my dog's health is unstable and I'm not always sure when I'll be able to get away for a long weekend and when I need to stay home. So if I could just go hike when it's convenient but still help a tiny itty bit on the trail, that'd make me really happy.

Anybody think freelance trail clearing is a bad idea? I don't want to cause more harm than good.

Creek Dancer
12-21-2006, 14:14
If you plan on using Skyline Drive to reach your trailhead, be sure to call the SNP before you leave to make sure they haven't closed the road. This happens often in the winter. Also, be sure to get your backcountry permit.

A three-season tent should be fine depending on the weather.

Alligator
12-21-2006, 16:56
We did the north end last Jan on a very windy weekend. I was glad to have a 4 season tent. The wind was blowing us sideways. However, the sites/shelters we stayed in had reasonable cover from the wind. So as mentioned, site selection is important.

Also, Skyline Drive was closed while we were in the park. So I recommend not using Skyline Drive for access to avoid having to deal with a closure.

The rangers were very helpful and were looking out for hikers that weekend, going out of their way to determine who was in the park and where they were parked.

Please fill out your permit as completely as possible to help the rangers out.

Skyline
12-21-2006, 17:16
That's something I never thought of doing, but I like it. Is it cool for an untrained trailmaintainer (aka just a hiker) such as myself to take a saw along and clear some trail if I get energetic? I'd wanted to sign up for a weekend trailcrew but my dog's health is unstable and I'm not always sure when I'll be able to get away for a long weekend and when I need to stay home. So if I could just go hike when it's convenient but still help a tiny itty bit on the trail, that'd make me really happy.

Anybody think freelance trail clearing is a bad idea? I don't want to cause more harm than good.

I don't know the OFFICIAL answer but I'll give you this to think about:

1) Most trail maintainers, hikers, PATC, and SNP would be THRILLED if you would assist in removing fallen limbs and debris from the treadway--if they only require muscles to move them. No appointment necessary.

2) There are specific rules in SNP regarding the cutting of vegetation. Maintainers are provided with these regs. You would want to contact SNP and/or PATC to learn them before cutting, and to get their feedback about whether you should even be doing this.

3) Trail damage is sometimes reported by District Managers to specific maintainers, who make room in their schedules and drive/hike great distances to reach the scene of the damage...oftentimes with friends in tow. They anticipate having to do some serious work and if they can't find the reported damage (because someone else already did it in an ad hoc manner) they sometimes will spend a long time looking for it, questioning the original report, etc. and eventually leave in frustration. I know some volunteers who would be thrilled to find the work had been done, but others who would be highly pissed under these circumstances.

4) The past few weeks on PATC's Trails Forum there have been pleas for "swampers" to help the sawyers. (A swamper is basically an unskilled manual laborer who removes what the sawyers cut from the treadway and assists elsewhere when needed.) You might inquire about the next worktrip; they have been going out most weekends but being the holiday season have had less than overflow crowds of volunteers. These trips are coordinated with the Park so even if Skyline Drive is closed where work needs to be done, arrangements are made for entrance and exit.

5) There are safety issues to be aware of--and safety equipment to wear--when you're cutting trees and large limbs. PATC can usually supply knowledge and gear if you're part of a worktrip.

6) The regs are even more strict when it comes to using a powered chainsaw. First, you need to be certified. Second, you need to be aware of and follow rules regarding the use of a chainsaw. This would leave out someone going out solo with a chainsaw to clear trail.

I'm thinking item #1 would be your best bet right now while your dog's health is a hinderance to volunteering for an organized day crew. But for others reading this, if you're near SNP please call 703-242-0315 and find out about the next worktrip(s). After the AT is cleared, SNP has hundreds of miles of side trails--some of which need a lot of work.

Skyline
12-21-2006, 17:19
I'm taking a three-season tent with me for a quick trip the day after Christmas, but it's also hevy-duty.

Also, there could well be some blowdowns left from the ice storm, or new blowdowns from the quick change in temps and the currently forecast rain.
According to the Blue and White Crew's database, there's a blowdown 4 minutes north of Tanner's Ridge Fire Road. (The end of my section.)

I'm packing my folding corona saw so I can be sure my section is clear. I'm also going to try to be sure it's clear down to the Bearfence Hut. If I'm feeling energetic, I'll also clear from the cemetary up to Big Meadows.

As of last Sunday (12/16) the Drive was closed south of the intersection of Skyline Drive and Rapidan Fire Rd. close to the Big Meadows Wayside.

BTW you have a well maintained section there when Mother Nature isn't messing with you!

jlb2012
12-21-2006, 17:29
hey Skyline - you forgot one - its against regs for a backpacker to have a saw in the backcountry

wrt to this ice storm - just pulling the broken branches off the trail would be a big help but some of them are tangled with small trees and you have to watch out for spring poles as a result. Obviously look overhead if camping or working - there are a bunch of sizeable lumber hung up in the trees that could unexpectedly come down and whack you.

Cookerhiker
12-21-2006, 17:37
If you plan on using Skyline Drive to reach your trailhead, be sure to call the SNP before you leave to make sure they haven't closed the road. This happens often in the winter. Also, be sure to get your backcountry permit.....

This happened to us last year. We drove to SNP in a snowstorm and the entire Skyline Drive was closed but the Park guys allowed us to park on the side of the road by the entrance station. We did have to adjust our intended route but otherwise, it was a great hike - just enough snow to be scenic but not so much to hamper us.

BTW, the Park staff was so preoccupied by the snow, they told us to go ahead without the permit. But I wouldn't count on that happening all the time.....

Squeegee_Joe
12-21-2006, 20:05
I don't know the OFFICIAL answer but I'll give you this to think about:

1) Most trail maintainers, hikers, PATC, and SNP would be THRILLED if you would assist in removing fallen limbs and debris from the treadway--if they only require muscles to move them. No appointment necessary.

2) There are specific rules in SNP regarding the cutting of vegetation. Maintainers are provided with these regs. You would want to contact SNP and/or PATC to learn them before cutting, and to get their feedback about whether you should even be doing this.


That's about what I'd say, too.

Now it looks like my official plan for this trip is to be a "swamper" for a sawyer going through, assuming I can arrange timing with the sawyer.

Skyline
12-21-2006, 22:58
hey Skyline - you forgot one - its against regs for a backpacker to have a saw in the backcountry

wrt to this ice storm - just pulling the broken branches off the trail would be a big help but some of them are tangled with small trees and you have to watch out for spring poles as a result. Obviously look overhead if camping or working - there are a bunch of sizeable lumber hung up in the trees that could unexpectedly come down and whack you.

I did not know that was a rule. I know of more than a few backpackers who carry small lightweight saws--like the half-pound Gerber--with them in the Park. I don't recall that rule being on the permit or the handout they supply with permits. Where is it written so that backpackers would see it?

Good advice re: the entanglements.

jlb2012
12-22-2006, 08:05
I did not know that was a rule. I know of more than a few backpackers who carry small lightweight saws--like the half-pound Gerber--with them in the Park. I don't recall that rule being on the permit or the handout they supply with permits. Where is it written so that backpackers would see it?

Good advice re: the entanglements.

Its on the third page of the handout that goes with the permit and is distributed in the same box as the permits. See http://www.nps.gov/shen/planyourvisit/upload/SHEN_Backcountry_Camping_brochure.pdf for an online copy of that handout - basically it says no glass bottles, no axes and no saws.

Skyline
12-22-2006, 11:19
Its on the third page of the handout that goes with the permit and is distributed in the same box as the permits. See http://www.nps.gov/shen/planyourvisit/upload/SHEN_Backcountry_Camping_brochure.pdf for an online copy of that handout - basically it says no glass bottles, no axes and no saws.

Well there's the answer. It's clearly identified as a "Travel Tip." It's not a regulation. You wrote: "hey Skyline - you forgot one - its against regs for a backpacker to have a saw in the backcountry."

Anyway, the kind of lightweight saws I've seen backpackers carry are good for cutting small limbs--not whole trees or even major branches of trees. Only a gluton for punishment would carry something bigger and heavier.

jlb2012
12-22-2006, 12:35
dang and all this time I thought the "no glass in the backcountry" was a reg.

yep - that's me carrying that 21 inch Corona Pro plus hammer and wedge - definately a gluton for punishment - good thing I don't do that too much anymore at least not in SNP

1Pint
12-22-2006, 13:36
I don't know the OFFICIAL answer but I'll give you this to think about:
......

I'm thinking item #1 would be your best bet right now while your dog's health is a hinderance to volunteering for an organized day crew. But for others reading this, if you're near SNP please call 703-242-0315 and find out about the next worktrip(s). After the AT is cleared, SNP has hundreds of miles of side trails--some of which need a lot of work.

Hi All. Thanks for your feedback and thoughtfull responses. Especially you Skyline! I think I'll see when I can hit the trail and just do what I can while hiking to make a small difference (suggestion #1). And once my dog's medicine is stable, then I'll try to join a weekend crew as a swamper.

Happy winter hiking everyone!
Laura

Skyline
12-22-2006, 16:05
dang and all this time I thought the "no glass in the backcountry" was a reg.

yep - that's me carrying that 21 inch Corona Pro plus hammer and wedge - definately a gluton for punishment - good thing I don't do that too much anymore at least not in SNP

Before the current regs went into effect in Y2K, the glass prohibition WAS a reg--along with a bunch of other inconsistent stuff.

And you just keep carrying whatever you want. I'll never forget that bushwack in Nov. '05 when you cut us out of that greenbrier "cemetery." Would you believe I STILL have a scar where I fell and tore a gash in my leg further down the "trail."

vipahman
12-22-2006, 17:26
A 3-season tent is good enough as long as you don't expect a serious winter storm. Your enemies are lots of wind, snow, ice. Wind might not be an issue in a sheltered site. 6"+ of snow and your tent might not take the weight. Of course, you could do some overnight maintenance and work around that. Ice could be harder to deal with.

jlb2012
12-23-2006, 08:58
And you just keep carrying whatever you want. I'll never forget that bushwack in Nov. '05 when you cut us out of that greenbrier "cemetery." Would you believe I STILL have a scar where I fell and tore a gash in my leg further down the "trail."

that was a tough bushwhack alright - I think I still have blood stains on the shirt I used that day - if I ever try something like that again I'll be buying some chainsaw chaps for the legs and wearing a thick fleece for the arms - and bringing a pair of loppers ;)

Toolshed
12-23-2006, 09:12
The old controversial topic of using a vapor barrier in your sleeping bag is something you might explore. That can start a heated discussion around the old camp fire like asking about the best stove.

I am a proponent of VBL's in bitter cold - Though I don't think they work well above 20F. I think they are a necessity if you are out for more than a few nights in subzero cold. (My winters were centered in the ADK's, but now where I live in PA, we don't really have what I consider "winter" - Extended periods of sub-zero weather with significant snowfalls and blizzard winds.