PDA

View Full Version : On Line At Data Book



hopefulhiker
12-17-2006, 22:19
Snowman, a fellow 2005 thru hiker, from Wales, has developed a partial on line data book for the AT called Hikerbox.net.

He has completed the data for from Springer up to the NOC, He has entries for the first 800 or so miles including profiles.

Kudos to Snowman for following up on a plan after complaining about Wingfoot..

I would highly reccommend checking this site out.. It is free so far..
hikerbox.net or http://www.davedh.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

weary
12-17-2006, 23:31
Snowman, a fellow 2005 thru hiker, from Wales, has developed a partial on line data book for the AT called Hikerbox.net.
He has completed the data for from Springer up to the NOC, He has entries for the first 800 or so miles including profiles.
Kudos to Snowman for following up on a plan after complaining about Wingfoot..
I would highly reccommend checking this site out.. It is free so far..
hikerbox.net or http://www.davedh.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
I understand the data book information is already available free in the Companion. REmember also the databook is the intellectual property of the Appalachian Trail Conservancy. If that is the source, it is technically illegal to post it without permission. Besides it is sales of such information that helps keep ATC in business.

Weary

Sly
12-18-2006, 02:31
Factual data such as mileage and elevation is intellectual property?

Frosty
12-18-2006, 03:01
I understand the data book information is already available free in the Companion. REmember also the databook is the intellectual property of the Appalachian Trail Conservancy. If that is the source, it is technically illegal to post it without permission. Besides it is sales of such information that helps keep ATC in business.

WearyWell, if the website functions as planned (which is wikipedia-like), the website will have more up-to-date info than the data book, and it is perhaps more likely the ATC will use data from the website rather than the other way around. This is as it should be. No one should "own" a list of mileages, water sources, and hostels. Anyone can package and sell such information, but the info itself should be public knowledge.

Where will the data come from, and how will it be kept updated?

The design of THE Databook will allow hikers to enter data directly into the database and to modify existing data. In this way, THE Databook will be a living, breathing up-to-date indication of current trail conditions and mileages. Hikers stopping in a trail town will be able to modify data 'as of now' and fellow hikers following in their footsteps will be aware of current conditions. (There will of course be various precautions built in to prevent hikers just messing up the valid data), but to kick things off it may be necessary to grant 'databook maintainer' status to a small number of data volunteers. Care to volunteer?

Of course, it is currently just an idea in the formulation stages. Who knows how many people will use it, and if the data is indeed maintained real-time as planned. I suspect most people will just use Wingfoot's Thruhikers Guide as they do now.

hopefulhiker
12-18-2006, 10:35
The interesting thing about an on line data book is that one could carry an electronic device and just upload the next set of data as they needed it.

I don't know about the legalities of the on line data book, but if the ATC has property rights to the information then did WingFoot buy those rights.. Anyway I thnk since everything is going digital anyway, it was only a matter of time before someone did this.. Plus this is a voulunteer effort for now..

Jack Tarlin
12-18-2006, 19:55
Just had a look at this site.......many, many campsites are described as "stealth" campsites."

A stealth site, by most definitions, is an out-of-the-way, secluded, often hidden campsite where folks may opt to overnight knowing full well that the site is technically (or even legally) barred from over night use.

In describing so many "stealth" sites, it appears that on this website, virtually every side-of-the-trail campsite is described as a "stealth" site, when in point of fact, many, if not most of these locations may be perfectly viable, perfectly legitimate places to camp.

Some clarification would be helpful. In most cases, a site that is described as a "stealth" site is essentially a place where you are not technically supposed to camp.

Sly
12-18-2006, 20:09
Stealth sites aren't necessarily "illegal" but out of the way and sheltered from the elements. Also, NOT well used sites that attract bears. Atleast, that's the way I've always thought of them after first hearing the term in Ray Jardines PCT Handbook.

TJ aka Teej
12-18-2006, 20:54
I agree the term "stealth" it shouldn't apply to every unofficial spot along the trail. To me it's more about the way you camp, and how you leave the site.
And the elevation chart is misleading since it just shows the shelter/campsites. For instance the AT evidently doesn't go over Mt Washington or Whitecap, and ends about 4200 feet below Baxter Peak.

hopefulhiker
12-18-2006, 21:44
Jack, with your knowledge of the trail, you might want to shoot snowman a line via that site...

Sly
12-18-2006, 22:36
I agree the term "stealth" it shouldn't apply to every unofficial spot along the trail. To me it's more about the way you camp, and how you leave the site.


Well yeah since there's very few *official* or *illegal* spots for that matter on the trail to begin with. On the contrary, spots listed in the guidebook aka official? may very well be against common LNT practices such as campsite close to water.... certainly a camp in close proximity to a creek isn't stealth.

A stealth spot should be unrecognizable from the trail (even in an illegal setting) and stealth camping means LNT.

eventidecu
12-19-2006, 00:18
I don't understand why "we" here on this sight do not have our own data book link. This sight is exclusivly about the AT and having a "living breathing" artical of "data" makes perfect sense for this gathering of people, who love and care for the AT. This group is likely the most knowledgable group of people in the world about the AT,,, which is what the "data book" is about. The data book is inherintly out dated due to the year to year or even day to day changes that happen in between publishings. Personally I'd rather get my "advice" from the people HERE than some "proof reader" who's getting his information at least second hand or so. Things that make you go Hmmm. I don't know that the ATC "ownes" any rights to the whereabouts of a spring on a public trail or how many miles it is and how hard is is to get there from shelter to shelter. I would think the ATC would or should welcome the ability to keep hikers informed on a current basis because isn't that what the data books are there for? For them to argue intellectual rights infraction would make them a "for profit" organization in my oppion because they would just be "protecting" THEIR income potential. Again IMHO.

Sly
12-19-2006, 05:56
I don't understand why "we" here on this sight do not have our own data book link.

We do, if you're a donating member! :)

Jaybird
12-19-2006, 06:20
[QUOTE=hopefulhiker;287889]Snowman, a fellow 2005 thru hiker, from Wales, has developed a partial on line data book for the AT called Hikerbox.net.
He has completed the data for from Springer up to the NOC, He has entries for the first 800 or so miles including profiles.


pretty COOOOOOOOL!
he's got it all the way to MAINE now!
wonder if he's stepping into any LEGAL hassles????

MOWGLI
12-19-2006, 07:20
The data book is inherintly out dated due to the year to year or even day to day changes that happen in between publishings.

What changes? The roads, shelters, campsites, water sources, the location of the mountains? I don't understand. :confused: Help me out here please.

Frosty
12-19-2006, 10:08
What changes? The roads, shelters, campsites, water sources, the location of the mountains? I don't understand. :confused: Help me out here please.Elevation changes. There is no way the mountains aren't getting taller and steeper every year. It now takes me three hours to labor up to the Franconia Ridge, where years ago I did it easily in two hours.

Jim Adams
12-19-2006, 10:21
[quote=hopefulhiker;288031]The interesting thing about an on line data book is that one could carry an electronic device and just upload the next set of data as they needed it. :mad:


Yes, everybody needs to carry more electronics on the trail!!!!
The Data Book is up graded every year with changes. Buy the book and leave the electronics at home.:-?


geek

rafe
12-19-2006, 10:27
What changes? The roads, shelters, campsites, water sources, the location of the mountains? I don't understand. :confused: Help me out here please.

The trail is anything but static !!!!!

Old shelters get torn down, new ones get put up -- and not necessarily in the same place. Bits of trail (or roadwalks) are retired and replaced by new routes. I've been walking bits of the AT for about 30 years... and seen lots of these changes. I've also "accidentally" walked the "old" trail rather than the current one... simply by missing a turnoff. This has happened several times...

Examples: just below Falls Village, CT. Beautiful roadwalk replaced by a walk along the Hoosatonic. Monson, ME: the "old" trail used to go right into town and right past Shaws' place; now it dumps you out on Hwy 15, a couple miles west of town. Pond Mtn: IIRC, this was "added" to the trail in '89 or so; there used to be a roadwalk from Laurel Falls to Watauga Dam shelter. L. Wolf and I and a few others did that roadwalk together in '90. PA: 15-20 mile "Cumberland Road Walk" -- gone. (Video footage of that one is in Lynne Wheldon's "Five Million Steps.) Should I go on?

MOWGLI
12-19-2006, 10:34
The trail is anything but static !!!!!

Old shelters get torn down, new ones get put up -- and not necessarily in the same place. Bits of trail (or roadwalks) are retired and replaced by new routes. I've been walking bits of the AT for about 30 years... and seen lots of these changes. I've also "accidentally" walked the "old" trail rather than the current one... simply by missing a turnoff. This has happened several times...
That's why ATC prints a new book every year. :jump What does it cost? $4?

rafe
12-19-2006, 10:37
Books R good. Maps R better. ;)

Lone Wolf
12-19-2006, 10:39
The Data Book has a lot more info than a map.

rafe
12-19-2006, 10:41
The Data Book has a lot more info than a map.

OK, maybe I'll take a Data Book. :-? But I'm not giving up my maps!

Lone Wolf
12-19-2006, 10:43
I always carry a map and Data book.

rafe
12-19-2006, 10:47
I've been carrying the relevant pages from the ALDHA guides on my section hikes. But generally I don't refer to them during the day -- I use 'em mostly to figure out town stops and to decide which shelter to shoot for on any given day. Some days I don't look at the map at all while hiking.

weary
12-19-2006, 11:53
The interesting thing about an on line data book is that one could carry an electronic device and just upload the next set of data as they needed it.

I don't know about the legalities of the on line data book, but if the ATC has property rights to the information then did WingFoot buy those rights.. Anyway I thnk since everything is going digital anyway, it was only a matter of time before someone did this.. Plus this is a voulunteer effort for now..
I believe Wingfoot's book says he uses the information with the permission of the ATC. It may have been part of the negotiations that settled a copyright dispute a few years ago, but that's pure speculation on my part.

The data book information is intellectual property because it was gathered by ATC and it's thousands of volunteers. The information is public only if you walk the trail with a measuring wheel and gather it yourself as I understand the law. But we need to ask The Weasel or a good copyright lawyer to be sure.

Weary

eventidecu
12-19-2006, 13:02
Well if directions and advice are intellecual property I hope "MapQuest*" doesn't find out and prosucute me for telling anyone how to get to my house without going through a list of "their"
advertisers and signed disclaimers of such.

I do not have a data book, the maps have everything I need to know for the weekend sections I normally do. But sure I will when I take off for the big one. I'm not too worried about a mountain growing on me I just think trail conditions and people and places on the trail, either to look up, or stay away from would help. (not last years information) A living breathing artical of information not associated with corporate or legal anything. Like this sight just the comprehensive information put into a data book form. And download if you want by section. Like it or not there will be if not already some sort of GPS/phone/pocket mail gizmo with all the info on it. Like the ones you can get for your car that tells you where EVERYTHING in the world is and their menu. And for this sight Sly said there already is one for "donating members" so it appears its there already, again you just have to pay someone else other than the ATC for it. Hmm

MOWGLI
12-19-2006, 13:12
I just think trail conditions and people and places on the trail, either to look up, or stay away from would help. (not last years information)

That's what the shelter registers are for. Besides, that information is subjective. The databook simply offers data without opinion. The whole idea of the trail is to experience it so that you can then form your own opinion. No?

eventidecu
12-19-2006, 14:46
Fair enough, I just was thinking out loud that with all this experience and knowledge here that maybe there could be a comprehensive data ( without all the repetitiveness of asking ) part of this sight. And according to Sly there is so I'll go buy a data book, look into the "contributing member" privileges and shut up. LOL

MOWGLI
12-19-2006, 15:00
And according to Sly there is so I'll go buy a data book, look into the "contributing member" privileges and shut up. LOL

Please don't "shut up." You are no less enitled to your opinion than anyone else.

weary
12-19-2006, 22:46
....again you just have to pay someone else other than the ATC for it. Hmm
I guess it's just the way the world works, People build things and write things with the expectation, sometimes, that someone will pay for what they have done.

Were it not for that expectation, the stuff probably wouldn't have been built or written in the first place. Everyone has a choice if they want the information. They can steal it, research and write it themselves, or simply buy the databook. It cost less than $5 the last time I checked.

Weary

dperry
12-20-2006, 16:11
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, and Wikipedia should not be used for legal advice without referring to other, more specialized sources.

Having said all of that, this decision:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_v._Rural

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=499&invol=340 (text of original opinion)

implies, at least in this country, that the facts per se in the Databook are not copyrightable. As long as he doesn't simply copy the Databook without making any changes whatsoever, it appears that what he's doing is OK. From what I can tell, he's made at least two major changes: a.) he's reversed the order in which the trail is presented and b.) he has included some information (like privy locations) that is not in the ATC Databook. On the other hand, he might want to call it something other than the Databook. :-?

Now, in Wales, the law may be different, and he should therefore check to see what the appropriate rules are there. However, on this side of the pond, I think he's OK.

Weary does make a good point, however, that the ATC did go to a lot of trouble to collect all of this stuff, and that they are dependent on revenue from the publications as one of their funding sources. In fairness to Snowman, his FAQ indicates that he recognizes this concern, and that in the long run, he plans to work with the ATC and other affected organizations to make sure they reap at least some benefit from this project.

Boat Drinks
12-20-2006, 16:49
Something seems wrong with the link on Snowman's site to get to the Databook.

emerald
12-21-2006, 00:25
If you want to continue to have a well-maintained A.T., it takes a strong ATC and trail clubs to keep it up. People should support the organizations that built and maintain the A.T.

It seems to me that everything related to the A.T. is becoming increasingly fragmented in this infomation age to the detriment of the organizations that the A.T. depends upon for its existence.

To me, it's not so much about whether someone has the right to publish this information, but rather who you support with your dollars when you choose a source for the information. I believe one should spend their dollars where it benefits the A.T. most.

dperry
12-21-2006, 15:32
If you want to continue to have a well-maintained A.T., it takes a strong ATC and trail clubs to keep it up. People should support the organizations that built and maintain the A.T.

It seems to me that everything related to the A.T. is becoming increasingly fragmented in this infomation age to the detriment of the organizations that the A.T. depends upon for its existence.

To me, it's not so much about whether someone has the right to publish this information, but rather who you support with your dollars when you choose a source for the information. I believe one should spend their dollars where it benefits the A.T. most.

But again, Snowman states that he is planning to cooperate with the ATC and make sure they get revenue out of this.

Win-win situation, no? ATC gets money without having to do any additional work, hikers get a new, more flexible, and more up-to-date resource. Works for me. :banana

wacocelt
12-21-2006, 15:40
[quote=hopefulhiker;288031]The interesting thing about an on line data book is that one could carry an electronic device and just upload the next set of data as they needed it. :mad:


Yes, everybody needs to carry more electronics on the trail!!!!
The Data Book is up graded every year with changes. Buy the book and leave the electronics at home.:-?


geek


If they aren't asking you to use such devices, then does is really effect you enough to attack anothers personal preferences?

Lone Wolf
12-21-2006, 16:13
I have a copy of a bootleg Data Book from 1992. Page 1 starts in Georgia.

1Pint
12-21-2006, 16:30
I guess it's just the way the world works, People build things and write things with the expectation, sometimes, that someone will pay for what they have done.

Were it not for that expectation, the stuff probably wouldn't have been built or written in the first place. Everyone has a choice if they want the information. They can steal it, research and write it themselves, or simply buy the databook. It cost less than $5 the last time I checked.

Weary

Yes, we should support the ATC or maintaining clubs along the AT if we wish to benefit from the work they do. However, I felt absolutely guilt-free when I downloaded the Companion from the ATC webpage. I know some people feel the need to buy one as a financial contribution and then they download the online version. Not for me. Seems like a waste to pay for a bound book that I won't use.

weary
12-21-2006, 18:25
But again, Snowman states that he is planning to cooperate with the ATC and make sure they get revenue out of this.

Win-win situation, no? ATC gets money without having to do any additional work, hikers get a new, more flexible, and more up-to-date resource. Works for me. :banana
Start by asking the ATC if you can use the data their staff and volunteers have collected.

BTW. Copyright laws and intellectual property laws are two different matters.

Weary

Jack Tarlin
12-21-2006, 18:25
Personally, I think it's very nice that ALDHA puts the Companion On-Line.

But it's also pretty stupid.

This organization operates on an absolute shoestring. People that want this information should help pay for it. The On-Line Companion costs ALDHA and the ATC thousands of dollars every year in lost sales/revenue, which is ridiculous. Everyone who needs this information can well afford to buy the book, and this is exactly what they should do.

Sly
12-21-2006, 18:36
If anything, I'd use the online data or online Companion for planning purposes and buy a hard copy. For me it would be too much trouble printing it out off the web. The $5 or $15 goes to a good cause.

Roland
12-21-2006, 18:45
If anything, I'd use the online data or online Companion for planning purposes and buy a hard copy. For me it would be too much trouble printing it out off the web. The $5 or $15 goes to a good cause.

I agree with you, Sly. Apparently not everyone does, and so Jack may be right. Posting the Companion online will result in lost revenue.

rusty075
12-21-2006, 19:13
One issue that occurs to me is one of accuracy. The Companion's data has extra value because it is compiled and verified by local experts in each section. If I call up the ALDHA and say that hostle "X" has gone out of business that information won't show up in next year's Companion unless they have verified that report. This website appears to be relying on a wiki-style self correcting principle. Even for a site as big as Wikipedia that system doesn't prevent errors, and the potential for intentional errors and mis-information is always present.


When I was prepping for my hike I found that buying the Companion was actually cheaper than the ink and paper cost of printing out the online version. But having the online version available made me more likely to buy the printed version, not less. By the time it came to selecting a data book for the hike I was already familiar with the layout and contents...didn't see the need to relearn a new book.

dperry
12-22-2006, 01:06
BTW. Copyright laws and intellectual property laws are two different matters.

Weary

Huh? That would be like saying the laws on stoplights and the laws on traffic are two different matters. Copyright is a subset of intellectual property.

It would also be news to the US Copyright Office. Please see the first sentence under the first answer ("What does copyright protect?") here:

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html#what_protect

Said sentence goes on to say that copyright protects "original works of authorship" including "literary. . .works", which last time I checked included books.

Again, I think we're all agreed that the proper moral course of action for Snowman is to make sure that ATC receives revenue from this project. Judging from his FAQ, he also seems to agree with this. I also think it would be polite of him to ask if he can use the info, but I don't think it's mandatory either morally or legally (again, at least in this country--Snowman, if you're reading this, please consult a lawyer--or solicitor, as the case may be:rolleyes: --and find out what the laws in the UK are like.), and I would certainly hope that if he did ask them, that they would not play hardball with him, particularly if they are unwilling or unable to do such a project on their own. The fact that ATC permitted Dan Bruce to use the info, for a product that at least indirectly competes with their own guides, indicates that they may not be confident of their legal position on this.

I don't object to the concept of copyright per se, but it has gotten way out of hand in recent years, to the point where it is beginning to threaten other economic and intellectual liberties. I believe that any further expansion of it needs to be resisted, even expansion in the service of an organization we otherwise support.

If it makes you feel better, after payday comes tomorrow, I'm planning on buying about $35.00 of maps and guides from ATC, including the 2007 Databook, and I'm also planning on buying the ALDHA Companion once the time for serious planning comes in a couple of months. However, that doesn't preclude my also using Snowman's guide, should I find it useful to do so.

bfitz
12-22-2006, 01:09
If people simply enter information that they know from hiking, there is no infringement even if it's the same data. The wiki thing isn't copying anything.

dperry
12-22-2006, 01:33
If people simply enter information that they know from hiking, there is no infringement even if it's the same data. The wiki thing isn't copying anything.

The Supreme Court decision I posted earlier says it's OK to copy facts straight out of another book, as long as the "expression" of the facts is not unique in some way (and even then, you just need to express them differently.) I don't think listing waypoints along a transportation right-of-way in the order in which they occur, and listing the mileages between waypoints, is terribly unique. If it were, it would be awfully hard for more than one road atlas to list mileages, for instance.

bfitz
12-22-2006, 01:34
And there would be no way to tell the difference anyway.

weary
12-22-2006, 13:25
Huh? That would be like saying the laws on stoplights and the laws on traffic are two different matters. Copyright is a subset of intellectual property.
It would also be news to the US Copyright Office. Please see the first sentence under the first answer ("What does copyright protect?") here:
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html#what_protect....
I don't pretend to be an expert in such matters, though the nature of my job for 40 years engendered a general interest. It's my understanding that some things are covered by intellectual property rights, that are not covered by copyright laws. This understanding stems from taking a casual interest in the Wingfoot-ATC squabble of a few years ago, a comment I once read by an ATC official about people ripping of the Conservancy's "intellectual rights," and the fact that Wingfoot makes a point of printing the data book information with "permission."

If Wingfoot needed permission, so does the proposed web site.

BTW: There is nothing in the copyright office site that suggests my views are wrong.

Weary

1Pint
12-22-2006, 15:54
And there would be no way to tell the difference anyway.

Not unless there was an error in the original that was duplicated in the other source as well.... think back to elementary school cheating. If my seat is behind yours and if I'm copying your answers for a multiple choice test and you get everything correct, then I'm good. However, if you get #s 5, 19, 24 and 56 wrong and I happen to have the exact same wrong answers for those questions.... well, doesn't take a genius to realize I copied off of you. Oops.

dperry
12-22-2006, 16:08
I don't pretend to be an expert in such matters, though the nature of my job for 40 years engendered a general interest. It's my understanding that some things are covered by intellectual property rights, that are not covered by copyright laws. This understanding stems from taking a casual interest in the Wingfoot-ATC squabble of a few years ago, a comment I once read by an ATC official about people ripping of the Conservancy's "intellectual rights," and the fact that Wingfoot makes a point of printing the data book information with "permission."

If Wingfoot needed permission, so does the proposed web site.

BTW: There is nothing in the copyright office site that suggests my views are wrong.

Weary

a.) Of course, there is also no positive evidence for your theory at the Copyright Office, either. Nor was there any in the survey of several legal websites, online dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc. I just did.
b.) The fact that ATC asserts intellectual rights to the facts in the Databook does not mean that such rights actually exist.
c.) The fact that Wingfoot chose to seek permission to use the facts in the Databook may simply indicate that 1.) he felt the need to do so from reasons of morality and/or etiquette, or 2.) he didn't feel like taking a chance on getting sued and suffering the resulting expense and hassle. It does not necessarily indicate that he felt a legal obligation to do so, nor does it necessarily indicate that such an obligation exists. Only the courts can decide that. I scanned Trailplace but could find no specific references to this issue, so we don't know what his motives were. As previously stated, the fact that ATC permitted a competitor to use its information may also indicate (though not necessarily) that they felt some concern about the strength of their position.

As you yourself pointed out, it is also true that the information is available free online from the Companion; therefore, it is hard to see what more economic damage Snowman's going to do that the ALDHA hasn't already.

But don't take my word for it. Examine the Supreme Court opinion I posted. I particularly commend Section II to your attention, where the Court takes up the idea you put forth in an earlier post, that one can gain intellectual property rights to a collection of facts as a reward for the work one has put into it (apparently this is referred to as the doctrine of "sweat of the brow.") The Court explicitly rejects this idea as a misinterpretation of the law, making it quite clear that "copyright is not a tool by which a compilation author may keep others from using the facts or data he or she has collected. . .The 1909 Act did not require, as "sweat of the brow" courts mistakenly assumed, that each subsequent compiler must start from scratch, and is precluded from relying on research undertaken by another."

Now, if you can find some other United States court decision that contradicts this, or suggests that there are other rights involved here besides copyright (again, I concede the possibility that other countries' laws may grant more extensive rights, and I urge Snowman to look into this issue), or that implies that a collection of mileage data is somehow different from a collection of addresses and telephone numbers (and if it is, there are a lot of road atlas makers who are in big trouble), then I will be happy to look at it. Until then, I'm afraid I'm going to have to take the Court's opinion (unanimous, by the way) over yours.

bfitz
12-22-2006, 18:05
Not unless there was an error in the original that was duplicated in the other source as well.... think back to elementary school cheating. If my seat is behind yours and if I'm copying your answers for a multiple choice test and you get everything correct, then I'm good. However, if you get #s 5, 19, 24 and 56 wrong and I happen to have the exact same wrong answers for those questions.... well, doesn't take a genius to realize I copied off of you. Oops.Hmmmm.........Since it's wiki style as well, folks will correct such things, no?

snowman2005
01-10-2007, 20:58
My dear hiking friends, both those I know and don't know, thank you for this interesting thread.

Could I pick up on some of the points mentioned so far, although I don't wish to get into a debate about any of them, you appear to be achieving that very well without me ;-)

THE Databook is still in development and I do not feel it is yet in a state which is good enough for discussion with ATC.

The current data is an amalgamation of a number of sources, which I then check out personally before I put it on the website. I have available to me web based info for shelters, I have the ATC databook, the ALDHA companion, Wingfoots book, and the .PDF file that whiteblaze offers for download, and I have my own data from my thru-hike. I check out the updates for re-routes posted on the web. If you cross reference all these sources you get variations in the data presented. I then use an approximation of the data for each item to 'walk' the trail using the National Map Viewer (http://nationalmap.gov/) in order to collect mileage, elevation, feature names, distances and directions before an item is entered onto the website. None of the data on the website at this time has been directly copied from any of the reference materials mentioned.

I also did a lot of web research about the use of data. Not what I 'could get away with' but what I could be confident about using wthout infringing on others property both in spirit and legally. If ALDHA or ATC would like to donate electronic data to me I would be extremely appreciative (pretty please!).

I spoke to Jack Tarlin about this idea when I met him during my thru-hike and took on board his comments and recommendations which I am thankful to him for voicing them. I also spoke to a lot of other hikers who were dissatisfied with the printed guides (as was I myself) and the main issues were accuracy of data and inflexibility of format with no choice of what type of information was included. THE Databook was created to address these concerns and it's intention is to give as much flexibility and customisation (ie. freedom) for the hiker as possible in order to produce what you need (maybe just a listing of water sources, or latest warnings, or shelters) or whatever your chosen paid-for databook doesn't give you. It would not be cost effective to print out the entire databook, but some people will still choose to do that because the can get exactly what they require.

I can never repay all the people who helped me during my thru-hike, but I can pay-it-forward and THE Databook is my way of doing that.

THE Databook will NOT affect profits of sales of the Companion or ATC Databook, because if it does I will start charging for access to THE Databook and working with ALDHA and ATC to ensure they recoup the money. I love the AT and if my pay-it-forward efforts can support its future upkeep then I will do what I can to make it happen.

Dare I ask how many 'trail magic' efforts actually provide any benefit to the upkeep of the trail? (if you wish to give trail magic, why not buy a bunch of Data books or Companions and give them away to hikers who wouldn't otherwise buy them!)

But, I digress. I would also welcome anyone wishing to pay-it-forward themselves to add your own updates to THE Databook.

Enjoy the AT, enjoy your fellow hikers, and do all you can to protect it, it's a beautiful thing!

snowman2005
01-10-2007, 21:13
P.S. Please do NOT bookmark or directly link to/use http://www.davedh.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ please use www.hikerbox.net (http://www.hikerbox.net) instead. If I change my ISP the first address will cease to exist while www.hikerbox.net (http://www.hikerbox.net) will always work.

Jack Tarlin
01-11-2007, 15:44
Snowman:

Thank you for joining this discussion; good post!

Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-11-2007, 16:04
Welcome to the discussion Snowman and thank you for this resource.

Icicle
03-07-2007, 09:36
Hello all, just to add my 2p....I helped input some of the data that Snowman mentions. It would be nice if other volunteers would put forward some time, since there is a lot of data that needs to be collected and posted.

Toolshed
03-07-2007, 10:36
Score:

DPerry 1
Weary 0