Educate me on stoves! [Archive]

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LastHonestFool

12-22-2006, 00:35

Okay, so I'm looking at a newer/lighter stove for my needs...basically it just needs to boil water quickly, dependably, easily, and efficiently...not much too ask right?:D

Currently, I'm using an ancient Coleman, screw-on propane canister type deal.
It's heavy, old, and probably vastly inefficent compared to today's standards.

I've heard good thinks of the MSR whisperlite, and the Jetboil system, and also some bad things. These two stoves are (right now) the front runners in my research.

I'm not limiting this to white-gas stoves (obviously, see above) alternative fuel sources are welcome, so long as they meet the aforementioned requirements (easy to use, efficient, light, dependable)

It seems the Jetboil system is about 22 oz. 15 being the actual stove/pot combo, and 7 for the canister. so at the very most 29 oz. (adding 7 oz. for a spare fuel canister)

The MSR whisperlite weighs in at 11 oz...but I couldn't see if that included the fuel?

Also a concern is re-supply....would the Jet-boil fuel be available enough on the trail, compared to something as time-tested as the MSR?

I know it's alot of questions, so I appologize for that. I'd just like to be as informed a spossible before I make my purchase.

Bravo

12-22-2006, 00:41

I like my Snow Peak Giga Power stove. Super light and really easy.

There's a ton of info here on stoves. Use the search function.:)

LastHonestFool

12-22-2006, 00:46

I'm a big poster on a couple other forums, and I know where your coming from.

you guys probably get threads like this once a month or so.

I've searched, but I'm still getting used to the system here at whiteblaze. Its a bit different than what I'm used to.

That being said, if you wanna point me n the direction of said-threads, I'd be mighty appreciative. :)

Bravo

12-22-2006, 00:52

I forgot:welcome .

I don't know how to point you to stove threads. But all you need to do is click on search and type "stoves" or similar words and sort through the threads that sound relevant. Hope this helps.

LastHonestFool

12-22-2006, 01:00

ahahhah I got it now!

I was using the search button ALL the way at the top, and it was pulling up google. and google would search for my topic, but I found the right search function now, thanks

anyhow, opinions are still welcome :)

rafe

12-22-2006, 01:00

Frosty

12-22-2006, 01:18

Under SEARCH pull-down menu, type the kind of stove you are interested in (Esbit, zip, alcohol, Jetboil, canister, gas, pocket rocket, etc etc) and find a thread discussing this stove. I just entered "stoves" and got a few hundred threads. I pulled these which looked promising. At least the first post looked promising, though who knows about the rest of the thread. Forums are dynamic and discussions tend to morph and move around just like a discussion at the picnic table in front of a shelter, though recently this has changed somewhat. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Try these for starters:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3464&highlight=stoves

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15508&highlight=stoves

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16933&highlight=stoves

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16732&highlight=stoves

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17450&highlight=stoves

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17463&highlight=stoves

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16731&highlight=stoves

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16552&highlight=stoves

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7566&highlight=stoves

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16053&highlight=stoves

LastHonestFool

12-22-2006, 01:22

terp, when it gets warmer, I'll take you up on that offer! and make a nice little outing out of it

as far as re-supply, would the Jetboil be readily available?

I'm going to look into the pocket rocket tommorow, and probably post more questions, lol :)

rafe

12-22-2006, 01:34

terp, when it gets warmer, I'll take you up on that offer! and make a nice little outing out of it

as far as re-supply, would the Jetboil be readily available?

You'll have to ask someone else. Folks say, "no prob" and I'm trusting them. All prior experience has been with Whisperlite and Zip stove. We used to diss canister stoves. Who knew? Folks swear by alcohol stoves but the little buggers make me nervous. ;) The stoves, that is. The Zip was always great as a conversation piece.

StarLyte

12-22-2006, 08:24

How in the world did a stove nut like me miss this thread?

In case you haven't heard, we are having a stove display at the PA Ruck (http://www.artofthetrail.com/paruck.html).

Bring your stoves, we'll have display tags. :banana

rafe

12-22-2006, 08:36

Bring your stoves, we'll have display tags. :banana

Wish I hadn't thrown out that ancient Svea. ;)

Skidsteer

12-22-2006, 08:43

Wish I hadn't thrown out that ancient Svea. ;)

:eek: Blasphemy!

rafe

12-22-2006, 08:45

It's a miracle I didn't set fire to the Whites with that old Svea. I was so happy to replace it with the Whisperlite.

Two Speed

12-22-2006, 09:20

It's a miracle I didn't set fire to the Whites with that old Svea. I was so happy to replace it with the Whisperlite.Yeah, but throwing it away? :eek: Those things are flat beautiful when they're polished up!

You have fallen from grace, and may not partake of the sacred ramen noodles until you complete penance. I hereby sentence you to building a minimum of 10 alcohol stoves as penance. :p

rafe

12-22-2006, 09:36

You have fallen from grace, and may not partake of the sacred ramen noodles until you complete penance. I hereby sentence you to building a minimum of 10 alcohol stoves as penance. :p

LOL, my fall from grace is so thorough and complete... ah never mind.
Alky stove users are like hammock hangers, no? Kind of a cult thing, I gather.

I feel the same way about canister stoves as I feel about my little digital cameras. This is just too damned easy. There must be some guilt involved.... ;)

Two Speed

12-22-2006, 09:40

Alky stove users are like hammock hangers, no? Kind of a cult thing, I gather.You dare question the superiority of the mighty Trangia? I banish you to the wilderness . . . hmmm, this ain't working out the way I had it planned.

rafe

12-22-2006, 09:49

You dare question the superiority of the mighty Trangia? I banish you to the wilderness . . . hmmm, this ain't working out the way I had it planned.S'okay. Mind's not made up. You know, I spent a good forty five minutes on the phone with Tin Man (Mr. AntiGravityGear) trying to get his stove working right. He's really a fine fellow, and he'd given me the stove for free. :) Given me a bunch of other stuff, too, and I've given back in turn...

But anyway, I digress. I've actually concluded that, yes, to really grok these little buggers one must build a few. There is elegance in simplicity, that even a boor like me can sometimes appreciate. ;)

Footslogger

12-22-2006, 10:03

[quote=LastHonestFool;290344]Okay, so I'm looking at a newer/lighter stove for my needs...basically it just needs to boil water quickly, dependably, easily, and efficiently...not much too ask right?:D

=============================================

If you're looking for something to boil water why not consider an alcohol stove ??

I went from the liquid fuel stoves to propane and finally made the switch to alcohol back in the late 90's. Went with the Trangia, which some consider overkill because of it's construction and weight (as compared with the superlightweight homemade models) but it is durable and dependable.

'Slogger

Two Speed

12-22-2006, 10:08

And efficient. And has an interesting history behind them. And shows signs of some very subtle engineering. Evidently I've spent far too much time staring at my Trangia. Is there a twelve-step program for this?

I'll second 'Slogger's comment about building a few to understand them. Getting a grip on alky stoves is kinda osmotic.

Tipi Walter

12-22-2006, 10:10

You can't go wrong with a Whisperlite or the lighter Simmerlite. I would not bother with a canister stove for cold weather backpacking and what I've seen with the alcohol stove in the cold and wind is a joke. White gas lasts a long time, my last long trip(this month)started with 34 oz of gas and at the end of 12 days I used only 25 ounces of the stuff and this was with cooking twice a day.

I carry the repair grommets and cup oil and regularly clean the fuel cable, etc. If I see another empty butane canister on the trail! It IS convienient but at what cost? Empty cans in the pack, never knowing how much fuel is left, poor cold useage, more expensive, etc.

Since 1980 I've tossed 5 or 6 of the Svea 123s into the trash can and yet they are still for sale at around 80 bucks a pop. Compared to the MSR they are obsolete and yet they SIMMER which the Simmerlite DOES NOT. Go figure. I could write 2 or 3 pages on the drawbacks of the Svea 123 but I still miss my little brass buddy but I DON'T miss dropping the hot key in the dirt or constantly losing one of the three nail-like support prongs. And the outer brass slide-on sleeve always gets bent and hot but MUST be removed to refill with fuel YAWN stick with something else.

Footslogger

12-22-2006, 10:16

[quote=Two Speed;290452] Is there a twelve-step program for this?

=====================================

Actually there is ...but you have to admit that your life is out of control and then turn everything over to a higher power (which is actually a Trangia with HEET !!)

'Slogger

rafe

12-22-2006, 10:17

Two Speed

12-22-2006, 10:26

. . . Since 1980 I've tossed 5 or 6 of the Svea 123s into the trash canHeretic.
I could write 2 or 3 pages on the drawbacks of the Svea 123 but I still miss my little brass buddy but I DON'T miss dropping the hot key in the dirt or constantly losing one of the three nail-like support prongs. And the outer brass slide-on sleeve always gets bent and hot but MUST be removed to refill with fuel YAWN stick with something else.I didn't say I wanted to use one for camping, I said they're beautiful when they're polished up. Yeah, the SVEA 123 is obsolete, but consider that the design is better than 100 years old. Compared to what was available in 1900 the 123 is some rockin' technology. Subtle as a blowtorch, all kinds of nasty habits but tough as a ten cent steak. I bought a Peak 1 Multi-Fool back in the early '80's. I've got more in spares and repairs than the original purchase price. If it's a choice between a Multi-Fool and a 123 I suspect the 123 is a better choice. Yeah, you do have to be smarter than the stove, but having gotten a little wiser I think I could handle it.

Tipi, as I understand it you spend quite a bit of time in some pretty severe conditions. Think that may have prejudiced you away from alky stoves? My experience is that the alky stoves are just fine for the average backpacker.

Back to the original question: personally I'm not a fan of the JetBoil, but if speed is what you want they're tough to beat.

neo

12-22-2006, 10:28

Footslogger

12-22-2006, 10:30

[quote=Two Speed;290469] My experience is that the alky stoves are just fine for the average backpacker.

=========================================

Hey ...watch it !! I may be in the twilight of a mediocre career but I'm no AVERAGE backpacker !!

'Slogger

rafe

12-22-2006, 10:32

Heretic. I didn't say I wanted to use one for camping, I said they're beautiful when they're polished up. Yeah, the SVEA 123 is obsolete, but consider that the design is better than 100 years old.

I bought my Svea (or maybe my the first of several) while in Morocco on a six month jaunt through Europe in 1972. The sucker was probably already older than me when we bought it. It needed some repair, and it was amazing to watch some old Arab in the souk in Marrakech fixing it. Which he did, with aplomb. The Svea saved our foolish butts and cooked many a fine meal. I'm just not much of an antique collector. Got enough old junk. Want some? ;)

Tipi Walter

12-22-2006, 10:35

Two hammock campers at 5000 feet in the snow:

"Is it lit?"
"Yeah, no wait, it went out."
"I think it's too windy here."
"Wait a minute, it's out."
"Fire it back up."
"Can't tell if it's lit."
"Yeah, it's cooking."
"It went out, here, add some more fuel."
"Ya gotta protect it from the wind!"
"Okay, it's set now."
"How much more alcohol do you have left?"
"Dangit, it blew out!"

Two Speed

12-22-2006, 10:41

Uh, Tipi, you trying to say I'm a hammock camper? I'm a ground sleeper and proud of it.

rafe

12-22-2006, 10:44

Tipi Walter

12-22-2006, 10:55

I heard and saw this conversation last winter from two bushwacking hammock campers out of Atlanta on a week long winter trek. They were two funny guys who loved to get off established trails and bushwack some pretty rough country. I saw them at the beginning of my trip and in the middle they ran into me after clawing their way up thru a hellish laurel jungle and they looked BEAT and TORN! One of them was about to pass out and he looked used up.

Tipi Walter

12-22-2006, 11:02

:D jetboil is the only way to fly,resupply is not a problem many out fitters along the trail,plus you can legally mail them if you ground ship only.one 3.5 oz canister last me a week cooking twice a day:cool: neo

Can another type pot be used with the Jetboil system? I can't see trying to clean burnt oatmeal or mac and cheese out from the narrow deep pot they sell with the stove.

rafe

12-22-2006, 11:40

Can another type pot be used with the Jetboil system? I can't see trying to clean burnt oatmeal or mac and cheese out from the narrow deep pot they sell with the stove.

Have a look at the Jetboil GCS (versus the PCS). Bigger, wider pot (1.5 liters.) If that doesn't float your boat, just go with a Pocket Rocket (or equivalent) and the cooking pot of your choice.

I haven't used my JetBoil (PCS) all that much yet on the trail. I have fairly large hands and have no trouble reaching to the bottom of the pot. I can't imagine a stove with better simmer control, so I'm not sure why folks are so worried about burning their food with this thing.

Two Speed

12-22-2006, 12:06

Can another type pot be used with the Jetboil system? I can't see trying to clean burnt oatmeal or mac and cheese out from the narrow deep pot they sell with the stove.Provided you don't mind buying the pot from JetBoil. The heat exchanger, which is key to the JetBoil's efficiency, is permanently attached to the pot. Next, the burner unit attaches with some lug thingy's. Short version: JetBoil uses a proprietary system; can't use another brand of pot w/o some serious fabrication and/or modification. This is one of the negative aspects of the JetBoil in my world.

rafe

12-22-2006, 12:14

Short version: JetBoil uses a proprietary system; can't use another brand of pot w/o some serious fabrication and/or modification. This is one of the negative aspects of the JetBoil in my world.

Could be why they call it a "system," eh? ;)

Mags

12-22-2006, 13:05

There are many backpacking stoves available for the consumer now. Lightweight alcohol stoves, canister stoves and white gas stoves are the most popular now for general use. But what stove is "the best"? The true answer is: NONE OF THEM.
The article below will go into the pros and cons of the various stoves for "real world" (not marketing) use depending upon your needs.

The "best stove" depends upon what your use is for. Boiling a lot of water? Backpacking as a couple? Doing "real" cooking in the back country? Long time without resupply? Winter camping? These are all questions that need to be asked when considering a stove for backcountry use. Just as you would not use a screwdriver to put in a nail, certain types of stoves are suited for different type of tasks than another stove.

Here is my rough guide (and I do mean rough!) to the different stove uses.

First the baseline for my personal stove use. Most of my backpacking is for solo, three season use. When thru-hiking on the Western trails, tend to do about 25-30 MPD. Do some winter backpacking in Colorado. Resupplied every 5-7 days on average for the PCT and the Colorado Trail. Resupplied 3-5 days on the Appalachian Trail and Long Trail thru-hikes. My longest stretch without resupply was 10 days in the High Sierra.

Also, I define a meal as enough for the standard two Lipton's and enough water for a hot drink. For me, that equated one ounce of alcohol for most of my cooking. Never had to use more fuel than that, but I've used my stove enough where I make it work with a min. amount of fuel.

On to the stove comparison!

ALCOHOL STOVES: For solo, three season use, this stove works very well. A homemade alcohol stove is light (less than half an ounce), easy to use, inexpensive and runs on fuel that can be found in most towns.
As a base , here is my alcohol stove setup:

2 qt. Alum. Pot w/ tinfoil lid 4.500 oz
Soda Can Stove .250 oz
Windscreen / Potstand 1.00 oz
Ziplock Bag .375 oz
12 oz. Mountain Dew Bottle (Fuel) .625 oz

Total: 6.75 oz

The major disadvantage of an alcohol stove is that after about 10 meals (10 oz of fuel), you lose major advantage of the weight savings. My alcohol stove setup weighs 14 oz with 10 days of fuel. If I were to go longer, an MSR PocketRocket (see below) would be more efficient for longer use. For cold weather temps (below 15F, the raw edge of three-season hiking IMO), a white gas stove would be much more efficient. Alcohol and canister stoves (rated to 15F by manufacturers), perform poorly for winter use.

From Mechanical Engineering Magazine, August 2004 issue:
Once a trip extends beyond a certain duration, the advantage of the homebuilt's near weightlessness bogs down in alcohol's low heat content,compared to white gas or isopropane (11,500 vs. 20,000 Btu/lb.). Hikers relying on alcohol end up paying a fuel-weight penalty if they can't resupply every four to five days.

(The above figure is for two meals a day)

Altitude has NOT been a factor for me with alcohol stove use. Have used it as high as 13k feet in October when it has been snowing out. Feel that is a good representation of what I consider the "raw edge" three season hiking.
Another advantage of the alcohol stove is that as you use more fuel, your weight becomes less and less than that of a canister stove. An empty metal container weights about three ounces by itself! If I go out for a weekend, two ounces of fuel weighs 1 oz a the most. So, my setup is would be about 7oz for a weekend vs 21oz or for the popular canister stoves.

ALCOHOL STOVE SUMMARY: The alcohol stove is suited best for three-season, solo use. The light weight, ease of use and easy resupply makes it a solo thru-hiker favorite. If you need to do "real" cooking, long term resupply (more than 10 meals worth), or share a stove then you may better off with a canister stove. Two people can use alcohol stoves efficiently, but more planning is needed. Though alcohol stoves are not hard to use, they are not as convenient as canister stoves. That may or not be a factor in your decision.

More info on alcohol stoves (http://zenstoves.net/Stoves.htm)

CANISTER STOVES: A good alternative for those whose needs are more than typical, three season solo backpacking. A canister stove is easy to use, more fuel efficient in the long term than an alcohol stove, an is better for couples/partners/families. "Real cooking" is also done easier on a canister stove.

You do have to pack out the empties and resupply is not as convenient as alcohol or white gas stoves. You often have to mail yourself containers on longer treks. Whiteblaze has a good thread on mailing yourself fuel containers. (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8311) As with alcohol stoves, canister stoves are not meant for winter backpacking. The canisters are rated to 15F by the manufacturers. They perform slightly better in cooler temps than alcohol, but not by much. In other words, for real world, three-season backpacking, the temps are not a factor for white gas vs. alcohol vs. canisters.

Jetboil

A very popular canister stove system in the past two years is the Jetboil system. It is popular because it is a "system". Small pot, fuel efficient stove, easy to use. Boils water very fast. It is expensive and heavy though! The integrated cup is meant just for boiling water and not cooking in, so it is of less use for partners (unless you are doing Mountain House type meals). Still, the convenience makes it an attractive stove for some.

Here are figures from some Whiteblaze (http://whiteblaze.net/) Jetboil. users. Thanks to Sdwoonek for compiling the data that I copied and pasted. ;-)

Originally Posted by Just Jeff
So a total of ~21 oz with a full canister.

Originally Posted by hopefulhiker
Old style Jetboil new snowpeak canister (21.6oz)

Originally Posted by joel137
Jet boil and one small full canister is...21.7 oz

Originally Posted by SoundWitness
total with new fuel canister....21.1 ounces.

Skeemers data is obviously thrown off by the addition of the "small cloth", but since it was weighed and posted, I had to include it....

Originally Posted by Skeemer
26 oz with a small cloth and a couple of uses

So that's about 21oz for the average Jetboil user. As the Jetboil people themselves advertise the stove for personal use (and the setup make it inconvenient for more than one person), it takes a longer resupply stretch to make the extra weight of the Jetboil more efficient than an alcohol stove over the long term. This weight penalty is more pronounced on shorter resupply stretches typically seen by most backpackers. It is a system as well, so it is hard to use with other cooking stoves or pans. Again, not very friendly for multiple use. Still, the convenience and ease of use does make it attractive for some users. It is $80 though, and I think there are lighter and less expensive alternatives for canisters stove use if convenience and ease of use are not your main purchasing points.

Other Canister Stoves

The MSR Pocker Rocket and SnowPeak Giga Power stoves are roughly the same weight, price and performance. Google them to find more thorough reviews.

In short, these stoves weigh about 9.5 oz with a full fuel container and stove. Add in my 4.5 oz pot and windscreen and it is about 15 oz. If I hiked with a partner (my main use for this type of stove), I'd take a bowl to eat out for myself or my partner. Call it one ounce for a Cool Whip bowl. So that is 16 oz total. for the setup I would use. These stoves are very fuel efficient; getting about 25 meals with a full fuel container! Wow! A "real world" caveat is that people tend to pack in extra canisters because they are afraid of running out fuel. A more experienced canister user tends to gauge fuel use more accurately. If you pack an extra canister in "just in case", you are adding 3-6 oz of weight, ruining the overall efficiency of the stove. Lighter canisters are also sold with less fuel capacity as well. The 4 oz fuel canisters, from what I've seen, last about one dozen meals.
The canister stoves work best for couples due to not being able to hold more than a 2 ltr pot without tipping over. For larger group use, a white gas stove with a more stable base would be best.

CANISTER STOVE SUMMARY:

Jet Boil: For ease of use and quick boil times, but for a high price and weight, the Jet Boilstove may be a good choice for some people. It is not a good choice for couples or group use. Jet Boil is coming out with a stove that is designed for more people in the near future.

MSR Pocket Rocket/Snow Peak/Others: For more than ten meals, couples use and longer resupply, the canister stoves would be a good solution. If I ever hiked with a partner, I'd lean towards the Snow Peak because it is more stable for pots than the the Pocket Rocket (based on reviews I've seen). If I ever did a trip with longer resupplies (like the Yellowstone to Yukon corridor (http://www.y2y.net/) ), I might take a canister stove.

All the canister stoves do have the resupply disadvantage which could be mitigated with careful planning. As with alcohol stoves, canister stoves are not meant for winter backpacking. Their performance is somewhat better in colder temps than alcohol stoves.

More info on canister stoves

Jetboil (http://www.jetboil.com/)
MSR Pocket Rocket (http://www.msrcorp.com/stoves/pocket_rocket.asp)
Snow Peak Giga (http://www.snowpeak.com/gears/gst100.htm)
Canister Stove Reviews (http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Cook%20Gear/Stoves/)

WHITE GAS STOVES: Heavy, complicated to use, noisy, expensive. For most three-season backpacking, there is no real reason to use this stove. Though it is more fuel efficient than the other stoves, the heavy weight outstrips the weight savings by overall fuel efficiency. If you are cooking for more than two people at one time, a white gas stove makes more sense because they have a more stable base (in general) and can boil lots of water quickly. Winter camping and high altitude mountaineering is where these stoves shine. It was the original use of these stoves after all! They work much better in cold weather than the other stoves and can melt snow quickly; an important chore in winter camping. The white gas stoves do have a bit of learning curve and can be finicky to use. Most of the white gas stoves also have two settings: "Blast furnace" and off! If you want to do "real cooking", be sure to get a stove with a simmer function.

White Gas Stove Summary: For true winter camping/high altitude mountaineering and large group use, it is the stove of choice. Otherwise it is too heavy for three season backpacking use.

Popular White Gas stoves include: MSR Simmerlite, MSR Whisperlite, MSR XGK, Coleman Feather 442, Svea 123 and many, many others!

White Gas Stove Reviews (http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Cook%20Gear/Stoves/)

ZIP STOVES: (Note, the data for the zip stove was provided by TerraPin_too. Thanks!)
Zip Stoves are an an interesting stove. They are a battery operated stove that burns wood, twigs, cones, etc. With a single AA battery, up to six hours of burn time can be achieved. A fan is powered by the battery to achieve an efficient burn.

Advantages
No need to carry fuel
burns almost anything (pine cones, knots, etc.)
Infinite cooking time (make elaborate meals)
personal campfire" on cold, wet days
generally reliable
very high BTU output, once it's going (boils water quickly)Disadvantages

tough going when it's been raining for days (solution: carry fire-starter materials)
requires fire-starting skills
requires constant attention while cooking (feeding more fuel into stove)
time required to gather fuel, start the stove, and cool it after use
your cookware will be covered with soot (and most likely so will you...)
Needs AA battery
Works best in a forest environment; Obvious limitations in desert or alpine environment.
If there is a fire ban, the Zip stove may be banned for use
Weighs 18 oz, including batteryZip Stove Summary: The Zip stove offers the advantage of needing no fuel other than that which you collect at camp, off the forest floor.

It uses a small fan, powered by a single AA battery, to create a very hot and surprisingly clean-burning wood fire. Fuel is reduced to pure ash. One battery provides several hours of cooking time.

Its main disadvantage is that it's fussy and dirty. It takes time to collect fuel and start the stove, and once it's lit, you must feed more fuel into the stove every couple of minutes. This stove will help hone your fire-starting skills!

If you spend a lot of time in camp and like to do a lot of cooking, it's not a bad choice.

The "personal campfire" feature is not to be dismissed, and really needs to be experienced. No other stove offers this.

There is now a Titanium version of this stove that weighs 10 oz, but it is $129!

If you look at the Zen Stoves article, there are links to DIY type stoves as well that are a bit lighter and less expensive.

More info on Zip Stoves http://www.zzstove.com/
Zip Stove Reviews http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Cook%20Gear/Stoves/Sierra%20Zip%20Stove/

ABOUT "DAILY AVERAGE HAUL"

"Daily Average Haul" is a concept Two Speed (a White Blaze user and a civil engineer) and myself came up with via e-mail exchanges.

What this concept essentially means is that a stove system (stove, fuel and cooking system) has an initial starting weight, but also a weight that decreases over time due to fuel use. The weight of a stove system has a differing average depending over the time a stove system is being used. Hence the term "Daily Average Haul".

For example, the initial weight of an alcohol stove is very light. But, if many meals are cooked without a fuel resupply (over ten), the weight savings of a an alcohol stove is mitigated. More fuel means the "average daily haul" weight increases.

Conversely, a canister stove system's weight does not differ much over time. A 4 oz canister is good for about 12 meals or so. After the fuel is used, you are still left with a canister that weighs 3oz and can no longer be used. On a weekend outing, 4 oz of alcohol weighs about 2.5 oz. The empty 12 oz Sprite bottle weighs .625 oz. Taking the first example, the "daily average haul" for the alcohol stove is noticeably less than a canister stove (never mind a Zip or White Gas stove) for a shorter period of time. If you are a canister stove user who packs another canister "just in case", the weight penalty for "daily haul average" is even more pronounced.

If you are out for a REALLY long time without a fuel resupply, some stoves (e.g. an MSR Simmerlite or a Zip Stove in the appropriate environment) will have an "daily haul average" weight that is lighter than other stoves.

When thinking about which stove is lighter, "daily haul average" is a useful concept to keep in mind. Depending upon your time out without a fuel resupply, one stove system may be more efficient than another.

Naturally, there are are other reasons to use one stove system over another besides weight (convenience, time of year, availability of fuel, etc). but "daily haul average" is still a useful concept to keep in mind when determining what type of stove system best suits your needs.

OVERALL SUMMARY

There are many stoves to choose from. Which one is the best depends upon your intended use.

If you are resupplying for less than ten meals, solo and three-season backpacking: Alcohol Stove
If you are a couple and/or going long time between resupplies: Canister Stove other than Jet Boil
If you are solo and want a convenient all in one solution: Jetboil
If you are winter camping/high altitude mountaineering OR doing 3+ person meals: White Gas Stove
Doing lots of "real cooking" in a forest environment and not hiking far: Zip Stove

There are other stoves as well, but I have not used or heard much direct feedback about Esbit and others to give a meaningful comparison. These stoves are less used, but can prove a viable option for some people.

OTHER RESOURCES
Sgt. Rock's Stove Comparison (http://hikinghq.net/stoves/stove_compare.html)
Zen Backpacking Stove Comparison (http://zenstoves.net/StoveChoices.htm)
Mechanical Engineering Magazine article about stoves (http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/aug04/features/kitsink/kitsink.html) (has my PCT picture in it! Woo hoo!)

Thru-hiker.com Stove Comparison (http://www.thru-hiker.com/articles.asp?subcat=2&cid=57)

hopefulhiker

12-22-2006, 13:17

I switched from a Jet Boil to alcohol stove because of weight considerations during my thru hike. I do not regret it.

rafe

12-22-2006, 14:40

I switched from a Jet Boil to alcohol stove because of weight considerations during my thru hike. I do not regret it.

Tell us a bit about your cooking habits/stove usage and fuel resupply interval. I'm very interested. What was your daily budget for alcohol burned, and how much cooking/boiling did you do, per day?

rafe

12-22-2006, 14:52

Mags, that was a good report, as usual. If you want, I'd be happy to add a section on the Zip stove. I have a few hundred miles worth of trail experience with it.

rswanson

12-22-2006, 16:01

Mags' advice is right on. The Zenstoves (http://zenstoves.net/Stoves.htm) link he posted is just about all the resource you need. A good thing about alcohol stoves is that you can make one and give it a try without major investment. The design I like best is the Jim Woods Supercat (http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/index.html). It only costs a few bucks to make and performs on par with any alky model I've tried, for purposes of boiling a few cups of water. Even if you buy a different stove you should give alky stoves a shot.

That being said, for three season hiking I like my Snowpeak Giga Power (http://www.snowpeak.com/gears/gs100.htm)stove. I'll pay a few ounces weight penalty for the added convenience of the canister setup.

vipahman

12-22-2006, 17:17

Alcohol stove for summer. Whisperlite for winter.

Jack Tarlin

12-22-2006, 18:26

rafe

12-22-2006, 18:32

doodah man

12-22-2006, 20:25

snip...
ALCOHOL STOVES: For solo, three season use, this stove works very well. A homemade alcohol stove is light (less than half an ounce), easy to use, inexpensive and runs on fuel that can be found in most towns.
As a base , here is my alcohol stove setup:
2 qt. Alum. Pot w/ tinfoil lid 4.500 oz Soda Can Stove .250 oz Windscreen / Potstand 1.00oz
Ziplock Bag .375 oz
20 oz. Mountain Dew Bottle (Fuel) .125 oz

Total: 6.25 oz
...snip

Mags, Not to get too picky, but I think you slipped a decimal point. An empty 20 fl. oz. Mountain Dew Bottle for fuel is probably more like 1.25 ounces. Not really all that important in the context of your very informative and well thought out post. Just looked funny that the bottle was 1/3 the weight of a ziplock bag!!

Mags

12-22-2006, 22:23

/Wow...thanks for all the kind words... Grazie!

Terrapin: Sure..write up a ZipStove article. I only have a theoretical knowledge.

Doodah: Doh! Did not catch that. Also have a few typos and grammatical errrors to clean up, too. Too litte/too much caffiene at times. :D I now use a 12oz Sprite bottle..have to weigh that in, too. :)

Mags

12-30-2006, 13:51

Thanks to Two Speed and TerraPin_too for additional info! Updated my stove doc to include "average daily haul" weight and zip stove info.

You can also read the doc on my website:
http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=58&Itemid=33

SGT Rock

12-30-2006, 14:10

Mag's Post #35 above is one of the single most informative and useful things I've ever seen on this website. It should be printed and saved by anyone planning an extended hike on the A.T. or anywhere else.
I agree with that. The only thing I would add is weight average over time is sometimes a factor. Say if you used an alcohol stove with a lot of fuel, your start weight would be higher than some canister solutions, but within one to two days it would be lower, and by the end of the section, the average weight carried of the system could be a great deal lower since the weight drops fairly quickly.

Mags

12-30-2006, 14:23

I agree with that. The only thing I would add is weight average over time is sometimes a factor. Say if you used an alcohol stove with a lot of fuel, your start weight would be higher than some canister solutions, but within one to two days it would be lower, and by the end of the section, the average weight carried of the system could be a great deal lower since the weight drops fairly quickly.

I added something called "Average Daily Haul" to the doc. Shold have done it a while ago as Two Speed and myself discussed it via e-mail just before I left.

In any case, the doc is now updated. Think the new section covers that issue.

SGT Rock

12-30-2006, 14:26

Roger that. I think I will take that post and make a new thread in the articles section. When it has been poked around a bit I will try to get the time to make it into an article.

Good stuff.

woodsy

12-30-2006, 14:34

Mag's post takes the confusion out of deciphering all the countless threads and posts about stoves. It really sums it up nicely. Now, with it cold and snowing here, I'm packing my trusty 10 yr old MSR Internationale.

rafe

12-30-2006, 14:38

I added something called "Average Daily Haul" to the doc. Shold have done it a while ago as Two Speed and myself discussed it via e-mail just before I left.

Average daily haul is an excellent concept. This (http://www.kzpg.com/Backpacking/Stove/Stoves.htm) URL is an excellent tool/toy for seeing how "ADH" varies with #of meals, resupply interval, stove type, stove weight, etc.

In a nutshell: alcohol rules for short trips, solo use, and/or frequent resupply. White gas and canister come out ahead for longer trips and/or infrequent resupply. I've managed to remain completely oblivious to fuel-resupply issues by using only Whisperlite or Zip stoves for all of my section hikes over the last umpteen years.

hopefulhiker

12-30-2006, 14:42

My wonderful wife dehydrated most of my meals for me and sent them in mail drops..

The whole cooking system with 8 oz of fuel, pot, stove, spoon, soap, lemonade cup, and cozy weighed about a pound.

All I had to do was boil water. My cooking habits were two hot meals a day, on the rare occasion I would have hot cocoa for lunch...

I would boil two cups of water in the morning and in the evening, sometimes I would boil a second pot in the evening for more hot drink.. I would use around an ounce of alcohol per two cups of water..

A little bit to prime.. Sometimes I would use a little more than an ounce too..

I carried an 8 oz shampoo bottle for fuel. This was plenty for most of the time.. I used Sgt Rock's ion stove with a wind screen and a MSR titan pot.

I would boil the water in the pot. Then I would put my dehydrated food in the cut down lemonade jar and put this in a cozy made of duct tape and bubble wrap.. I would add the water to the cup. Put the lid on and the cozy lid on and let it "cook for about 8-10 min. I would then use the top of the country time lemonade jar and make a little bit of cocoa with the most of the remaining water..

Finally I would add soap and the remaining hot water to my cup replace the top cup, and shake it up to wash dishes.. Then I would rinse with cold water and put the kit back together for the next day....

Mags

12-30-2006, 14:47

I am picking up some Esbit tabstoday just to round out the whole stove doc. I already have a few ideas on how to write it up (overall Esbit is the lightest, but inconvenient resupply, even slower cooking the alcohol, etc.) but want some "real world' experience a bit, too.

Look for that addition later this coming week.

Again, thanks for all the kind words.

SGT Rock

12-30-2006, 15:41

posted the new thread, and bumped it to the top Mags,

As for esbit - I would reccomend it for solo hot water type cooking. Imagine needing only a 14 gram block to boil a pint, and you stove is just a stand, with a windscreen (mine weight .7 ounces for all that). You have a foil zip lock for fuel since the hexamine can permiate through normal plastic, so a .7 ounce bag for fuel and now you have a base of 2.2 ounces and only need as many blocks as you plan to cook. So if you are going for 14 days, you need 14 ounces of fuel and the 2.2 ounce base. Your average haul weight with a 4 ounce pot is only going to be 13.2 ounces. The only draw back IMO is the price per block for hexamine.

SGT Rock

12-30-2006, 15:45

My bad: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20055

weary

12-30-2006, 16:55

Fool, I've got one of every kind, tried 'em all. Next time you're up in my neck of the woods, look me up and I'll give you the Cook's Tour. ;)

I'll be taking either the Pocket Rocket or my JetBoil on the next section, possibly with the alcohol stove as backup.

For a really weird stove, check out the Sierra Zip stove. I've carried mine for a few hundred miles. Makes a nice personal campfire on those cold wet days if you can manage to find fuel and light it. :)

But mostly, the Whisperlite and Zip stove have had their day.
Not quite, but they both have limitations. If you are into convenience foods that only require small amounts of boiling water and maybe a short simmering time, the lighter the better in my opinion -- like homemade beer can and cat can stoves that burn denatured alcohol.

I routinely boil two quarts of water most evenings to ensure drinkable water the next day. I also cook a lot of generic rice, 20 minute cooking time, and other concoctions that demand more than just boiling water.

For my uses the Whisperlight and the Zip are ideal. I mostly carry the zip while backpacking. On automoble camping trips I use either the Whisperlight or a propane camp stove.

The advantage of the Zip is that fuel is always available. In a couple of decades of using the Zip I've never found available wood that is too wet to burn -- or had any special difficulty getting the stove to burn.

The Zip, however, has a learning curve, unlike most modern convenience stoves. But any one with a willingness to experiment and learn can become proficient quite quickly, a day or two at the most.

Many, however, are so offended by a bit of soot on their pots that they don't seriously try.

Weary

weary

12-30-2006, 17:18

Not quite, but they both have limitations. If you are into convenience foods that only require small amounts of boiling water and maybe a short simmering time, the lighter the better in my opinion -- like homemade beer can and cat can stoves that burn denatured alcohol.

I routinely boil two quarts of water most evenings to ensure drinkable water the next day. I also cook a lot of generic rice, 20 minute cooking time, and other concoctions that demand more than just boiling water.

For my uses the Whisperlight and the Zip are ideal. I mostly carry the zip while backpacking. On automoble camping trips I use either the Whisperlight or a propane camp stove.

The advantage of the Zip is that fuel is always available. In a couple of decades of using the Zip I've never found available wood that is too wet to burn -- or had any special difficulty getting the stove to burn.

The Zip, however, has a learning curve, unlike most modern convenience stoves. But any one with a willingness to experiment and learn can become proficient quite quickly, a day or two at the most.

Many, however, are so offended by a bit of soot on their pots that they don't seriously try.

Weary
Just a brief adendum. On winter backpacking, where I'm just out to enjoy the woods during the wildest season with no real mileage goals, I often carry a Whisperlight for emergency use, but rarely use it. Instead I carry a small bow saw and build a campfire. I dig a fire pit with a snowshoe down to nearly bare ground and big enough around to hold me and any companions, and find enough burnable deadwood to get a roaring blaze going.

Weary

Tacoda

12-31-2006, 00:15

I have used pepsi can stoves by minibull designs and carry 8 0z of fuel for 10 days in temps 30-50 degrees weather. I have never had a problem starting the stove or keepign it lit. in fact, I had harder time keeping my primus optimus stove lit in wind for past two years than i did keeping my pepsi can stove on my last two ten-day hikes. In the past I never kept track of my fuel usuage to the once, with my blow torch optimus stove becuase I usually always had brought too much with myself. I will never again buy a commercial camping/hiking stove now that I understand the simplicity of the idea and the great craftmanship of minibull design products. I have no lies!