View Full Version : knife wieght. leatherman or nail clippers not allowed
For those who camp/hike alone, and don't want to bring a pistol, but require a knife for both utility and possible last resort self defense what sort of knife do you carry? What weight would you consider reasonable? 8 oz too much?
What about self defense sites with a knife, or official training for basic knife safetly and self defense.
Would appreciate if you thought outside the brown line for a few moments.
Thanks
Strange question coming from a three year old, strange indeed:D
For those who camp/hike alone, and don't want to bring a pistol, but require a knife for both utility and possible last resort self defense what sort of knife do you carry? What weight would you consider reasonable? 8 oz too much? I like knives, and carry one, but it is no where near 8 oz. More like 3 1/2. Go to an outfittters and check out the knives. You will be amazed at what is available, and how light they are. Baretta makes nice ones.
Most hikers don't carry even a pen knife, let alone a real knife, and in truth when I carry a small Swiss Army knife, the most useful part of it is the scissors, followed by the screwdriver.
I'm not big on weapons for self-defense. They tend to induce a state of confidence. Better to be apprehensively aware of developing situations and stay out of trouble rather than bullishly defend your rights. But there is nothing wrong with carrying whatever knife you want for whatever reason you want.
Ridge Rat
12-27-2006, 21:42
I carry a razor blade with me. I doubt I would try to fight anyone with it or much rather kill them. I suppose damage could be done but why the violence? I havent actually weighed it but maybe 1/2oz tops for weight.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-27-2006, 21:45
My knife is about 2.5" long and attached to something you asked us not to mention.... however, I carry two offset metal canes and the male dino has a leatherman with a 5 - 6" knife blade - either of those items could do some real damage in a survivial situation.
As Frosty says, go to an outfitter and look around. A good knife doesn't have to weight a lot.
I would imagine if someone knew how to use one for self defense, they'd know which one to carry.
As far as self defense purposes go, you'd have to be pretty skilled with an awfully big knife to really do anything. Common sense and a reasonable amount of caution about people and where to camp is your best weapon.
I've spent probably 5-600 or so nights by myself on hikes and bike tours in all kinds of places and have never carried anything for personal defense more than my Leki poles and a small pile of rocks, only used to scare off bold racoons and porcupines. I carry a knife, but it's a Victorinox Classic mini (many hikers carry this) with unnecessary bits trimmed off. Weighs less than half an ounce and cuts cheese well, which is all I ever use it for.
I think a lot of people imagine all sorts of elaborate scenarios in which they fight off assailants and wild animals with their trusty knife but statistically this is laughably far fetched, and when it comes to people confrontations, producing a weapon tends to aggravate the situation. I'll say it again, common sense and a reasonable amount of caution about people and where to camp are your best defense. Carry a big Bowie knife if it makes you feel better, but odds are overwhelmingly likely it'll be dead weight.
Don't camp near, or in sight of roads and trailheads. Don't camp in sight of the trail in popular or easily accessed areas. Cook your dinner a couple miles before stopping to camp and avoid heavily used campsites to avoid most problems with animals. Trust your gut. If someone or something seems shady, move on. One rule I've always followed especially when bike touring is not camping in a place if there's garbage or litter, especially beer bottles present in the area.
Lastly, do you know what the number one killer in the woods is? It's deadfall- trees and limbs falling down and killing people. People always worry about the wrong things. :rolleyes:
yes thank you bleach. I understand your ideals. I hammock camped 10 days for the first time, and suddenly dead trees were both my greatest fears and my biggest problem. I think I was overly cautious on this knowledge but it was a text book lesson I had learned by vigilance. I also had a great deal of problems with coyotees during this lesson strangly. I had to run them off in the night several times. at several times, I had to participate in a shouting match only to find it made them run around my hammock and bark even louder.
I understand I need to pratice better cooking habits such as cook first and walk before camping. But I do not wish to do that. I boil water and eat every bit i can with no little left and seal the plastic cooking bag in a larger sealed plastic bag.
I truly belive I am doing everything that i can, to keep a clean and safe camp. To defend against people is my last idea of what I would use a defensive knife for. However, when you are alone and you have the problems I have had to deal with coyotees, or dogs, I am not sure exactly because it was too dark. I would at least some sort of defense.
Where I camp It seems like a 2-4 mile walk in the woods is nothing more than a vacation for the coyotes/dogs.
I am not trying to be silly or tell a story. This has been my experience. I hang my waterproof bag on a line that contains my dried food. I do not have the comfort of walking a few miles to a more inhabited campsite.
I am happy for cooking suggestions even though my pan bowls only boil water and cook in a plastic bag that sit inside an insulated pocket i purchased, but I also believe i require a small amount of defense greater than a nail clipper. defense against other humans is only a fantasy i fear, but feal i should be aware of during the night.
i must add one more thing. I have tented in this area many times. I have had the same problems in a tent, but i felt alot safer in a tent than i did in my hammock and this is why i want to research such things. the coyotee problem I have had with tents is not fun even though it keeps me up at night. a hammock on the other hand tents to get me face to face with rather curious creatures. I have no intention to tarp camp for obvious reasons. :)
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-27-2006, 22:53
Tocoda, may I suggest finding a large branch from a tree and fashioning a club at your campsite? All aggressive canines I've dealt with have yelped and decided to leave when I've wacked them with my cane. (I'm in trouble with the dog lovers now...)
I must admin I was a bit fantasical about the dog idea, I am sorry I got excited during my post. I am certain they are not dogs but only coyotes.
rangers have told me they have seen extremely large coyotes where I hike/camp and suspect inbreeding but that is nowhere here or there, or even true. I would rather discuss knives at this moment. thanks
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-27-2006, 23:07
Coyotes are in the canine family. I've wacked a few coyotes. We have them in the woods where my favorite walking path goes and some are pretty aggressive. Editted to add - now back to knives....
by inbreeding i suspect coyote breeding with dogs. I don't know. but either way, i wish to discuss knives as utility and or self defense, more than clipping toenails, and will enjoy all cooking safety ideals although i feel i have followed many correctly, and will ask on cooking forum about this in future.
thanks
hopefulhiker
12-28-2006, 00:30
This gun dealer friend of mine gave me this knife to carry on the trail. I considered it and gave it back. If I carried one for self defense that would have been the one.. Don't remember the name of it but it had a plastic handle with a snap in plastic sheath that could be mounted on the front of a shoulder strap of a pack. The blade was about 4 inches long and the whole thing weighed a half pound.. Too heavy! The problem with my set up is that I don't know how well I could fight with a knife while wearing a pack. I did try playing basketball a bit with a pack on. It was difficult. I never really felt the need for a knife for self defense on the trail. I picked up one of those plastic ones and carried it a little while to spread stuff on bread.. Also I carried one of those itsy bitsy little swiss army knives with the sissors. Also I carried a small sewing needle wrapped in duct tape....
soulrebel
12-28-2006, 01:15
Knife fighting is the preferred method for deciding who gets the last trail magic. Don't kid yourself, bring as big a knife as you can carry, dem hikers are hungry!
Downunda
12-28-2006, 01:20
I think you'd better stay home where you think it's safe!
soulrebel
12-28-2006, 01:21
Thru-hiker defense lesson 1
If any hikers get tough with you-drop a snickers bar on the ground...then you've got them right where you want them.
copythat
12-28-2006, 01:33
Strange question coming from a three year old, strange indeed:D
apparently preschool has changed a lot since i was there!
Going to go against the grain with this one...
I carried a leatherman micra as a trail tool but on numerous occasions wished I had a decent pocket knife with a better blade. Probabily because I grew up carrying pocket knives, my dad always has one, my grandfathers did, and I wind up using it nearly daily, probabily because the presence of a decent knife is just integrated in to my thinking, I missed having one several times.
A southern thing? I know its still pretty common here in Houston (and I dont mean fighting style knives, I mean smallish tool sized blades).
What I carry daily...
http://www.thebladeshop.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=294
2 1/4 inch blade, 2.8 ounces, one hand open and close, single edge and not a switchblade so its legal almost everywhere except airports or planes. Its ideal for working on ladders or working with lines when you only have one free hand. It will go on the AT with me next time.
As a defensive weapon, meh, it is not a weapon, it is a tool but as a last ditch defensive tool it could do some damage if things got nasty. I remember when I was taking CJ classes, seeing some pictures of NASTY wounds that were inflicted with a smaller blade.
A double edged fighting knife or large Rambo style survival knife is just too heavy, hard to justify to a police officer as a tool and honestly unnecessary for anything on the AT. If I were inclined to take something as a weapon, I'd take a solid staff that could double as a hiking stick.
I'd love to see statistics on weapons escalating bad situations BTW, when i was studying up on concealed carry statutes a while back I found that the vast majority of situations were resolved by display of the weapon without any shots being fired, meaning the bad guys backed down when a weapon was presented.
FanaticFringer
12-28-2006, 02:16
As far as self defense purposes go, you'd have to be pretty skilled with an awfully big knife to really do anything. Common sense and a reasonable amount of caution about people and where to camp is your best weapon.
I've spent probably 5-600 or so nights by myself on hikes and bike tours in all kinds of places and have never carried anything for personal defense more than my Leki poles and a small pile of rocks, only used to scare off bold racoons and porcupines. I carry a knife, but it's a Victorinox Classic mini (many hikers carry this) with unnecessary bits trimmed off. Weighs less than half an ounce and cuts cheese well, which is all I ever use it for.
I think a lot of people imagine all sorts of elaborate scenarios in which they fight off assailants and wild animals with their trusty knife but statistically this is laughably far fetched, and when it comes to people confrontations, producing a weapon tends to aggravate the situation. I'll say it again, common sense and a reasonable amount of caution about people and where to camp are your best defense. Carry a big Bowie knife if it makes you feel better, but odds are overwhelmingly likely it'll be dead weight.
Don't camp near, or in sight of roads and trailheads. Don't camp in sight of the trail in popular or easily accessed areas. Cook your dinner a couple miles before stopping to camp and avoid heavily used campsites to avoid most problems with animals. Trust your gut. If someone or something seems shady, move on. One rule I've always followed especially when bike touring is not camping in a place if there's garbage or litter, especially beer bottles present in the area.
Lastly, do you know what the number one killer in the woods is? It's deadfall- trees and limbs falling down and killing people. People always worry about the wrong things. :rolleyes:
My last overniter we nite hiked until we found a spot to hang our hammocks. The next morning I noticed a dead tree that was propped up against another tree directly above my hammock. Yikes.:eek:
Will make sure I look up above me next time I try that.
For utility any blade over a couple inches seems to work.
For protection-Forget about using any tools(gun, knife, stick, pepper spray, rope, sword, etc.)if you don't have any training. A knife is a great thing to use to protect yourself but since you're asking I doubt you have a clue as to what you're doing.
Go get some training before you go walking around with some false sense of security in your pocket. My 2 cents.:)
SGT Rock
12-28-2006, 03:52
Get you one of these if you want a larger blade that "could" defend yourself with and also would work for camp chores:
http://www.theknifeconnection.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3357
I have one I keep concealed on my when I go out of the wire. It has a small profile and only weighs like 96 grams.
That said, I don't think you need something like this on the AT. A Victronox knife at 21 grams will do you just fine and probably do more chores you need from a camp tool than this sort of knife.
copythat
12-28-2006, 05:16
Get you one of these if you want a larger blade that "could" defend yourself with and also would work for camp chores:
http://www.theknifeconnection.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3357
I have one I keep concealed on my when I go out of the wire. It has a small profile and only weighs like 96 grams.
That said, I don't think you need something like this on the AT. A Victronox knife at 21 grams will do you just fine and probably do more chores you need from a camp tool than this sort of knife.
a good looking knife, sarge, but i agree with bravo that a weapon with no training behind it is more of a liabililty, and with you that we'll probably never need one like yours, unless we use it (as has been posted before) to whittle down a branch into the shape of a club to ward off coyote ...
(*** unrelated aside, in stage whisper ... i tried to find a photo to post of what my seal capt. friend carries into the field, but couldn't track it down. makes my knees weak, especially since, in high school, he (ACCIDENTALLY!!!) nicked my forehead playing around with a plain old victorinox he got for his birthday! school nurse thought he cut my eye out. ***)
SGT Rock
12-28-2006, 05:44
Did it look something like this:
http://trackertrail.com/trackerknife/index.html
NICKTHEGREEK
12-28-2006, 07:50
Did it look something like this:
http://trackertrail.com/trackerknife/index.html
No need to slash, thrust, and parry with that blade, it'll scare someone to death just looking at it.
A decent survival knife is made for the military by Camillus and issued to pilots and aircrew specifically for survival applications. I've had the same one since '68 and have used it for numerous tasks but never a knife fight. It's not high tech, and not light but they are durable as hell. I don't carry it when backpacking much anymore, but if I ever go somewhere wild and wooly again it's coming along.
http://www.camillusknives.com/1mainframe.htm
NICKTHEGREEK
12-28-2006, 07:52
No need to slash, thrust, and parry with that blade, it'll scare someone to death just looking at it.
A decent survival knife is made for the military by Camillus and issued to pilots and aircrew specifically for survival applications. I've had the same one since '68 and have used it for numerous tasks but never a knife fight. It's not high tech, and not light but they are durable as hell. I don't carry it when backpacking much anymore, but if I ever go somewhere wild and wooly again it's coming along.
http://www.camillusknives.com/1mainframe.htm
It's a 5733, the link won't track to the item
For utility any blade over a couple inches seems to work.
For protection-Forget about using any tools(gun, knife, stick, pepper spray, rope, sword, etc.)if you don't have any training. A knife is a great thing to use to protect yourself but since you're asking I doubt you have a clue as to what you're doing.
Go get some training before you go walking around with some false sense of security in your pocket. My 2 cents.:)
I'd venture that if one were thrust into the predicament, and had the option, then any sort of weapon in a survival situation would be preferable to just ones bare fingernails, whether that person had any "training" using it or not.
What I generally carry in the woods, primarily because it holds a really sharp blade which is handy for cutting everything from cheese to 550 cord to, well you name it, is a: http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=209. The tip is great for lancing blisters or even as a make-shift awl.
I've had mine for nearly 10 years have yet to sharpen it! What I really like about it is that it is equally comfortable to open, hold and use for us lefties, and the carry clip can be switched to accommodate your preferences. I removed my clip altogether, as I usually just carry mine in my pack. With a reasonable weight to use ratio, coupled with an indestructable waterproof handle and a top quality blade, it has served me well. Sorry, but I never used it for self-defense purposes, although I'm certain it would do well as a weapon with it's one-handed opening ability and a locking blade.
SGT Rock
12-28-2006, 10:32
My youngest son has one of those Spyderco knives.
skyhiker2
12-28-2006, 10:37
I use to take my pistol on every trip.... I'm not that retarded I was just born and raised in Philadelphia. (Not my fault).. Since I moved to Asheville last year it's stayed home.. I know it's tough to get over the insecurities of being attacked. But ok now really " You can do it" "Its all right"
LOL I still take a small can of mase.. it's more effective on a bear than a gun.. With-out kiling it of course. The same goes for humans, and it only weighs 2.5 OZ's
fiddlehead
12-28-2006, 10:57
Ginzu is an awesome knife but they are so hard to find anymore.
I now just use a box cutter. Hiked with a guy who never carried a knife. Just used his teeth.
Beachwalker
12-28-2006, 11:06
Strange question coming from a three year old, strange indeed:D
aw Dude... coffee through the nose and on the laptop on that one... thanks! :rolleyes:
But back on topic... I actually carry 2 knives when I pack. One is a Leatherman CS4, but I look at that more as a tool, than a knife.
http://www.leatherman.com/products/tools/cs4/default.asp
For a "knife" knife, I carry the Spyderco Remote Release II. The main advantage to this, in adddition to having an excellent blade, is that the knife literally clips onto your pack with a built in ring. Its a one hand operation, so you can remove the knife from your pack, or belt, and open it at the same time.
http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=205
-- BW
I'd love to see statistics on weapons escalating bad situations BTW, when i was studying up on concealed carry statutes a while back I found that the vast majority of situations were resolved by display of the weapon without any shots being fired, meaning the bad guys backed down when a weapon was presented.
"That's not a knife... this is a knife!" -CrocDundee.
SGT Rock
12-28-2006, 11:41
"That isn't a knife, that's a spoon."
"Oh I see you have played knifie spoonie before."
[quote=Beachwalker;293123]For a "knife" knife, I carry the Spyderco Remote Release II. The main advantage to this, in adddition to having an excellent blade, is that the knife literally clips onto your pack with a built in ring. Its a one hand operation, so you can remove the knife from your pack, or belt, and open it at the same time.
http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=205
Looks a lot like the Gerber LST.. but about 4x the cost.
I carry a leatherman mini. The best weapon you have at your disposal is your brain. It's a terrible thing to waste.
If you're worried about dogs, coyotes, or coy-dogs, bring a hiking staff. That'll do!
vipahman
12-28-2006, 12:36
If the canines are getting nasty and you don't have a weapon handy, take your base layer (assuming you need the outer layers) and wrap it around your hand and forearm. Then stuff it into the mouth of the lead/largest (usually the pack leader). Let him go nuts with it until he gags and lets you go. A few kicks might expedite the process. At no point, should you attempt to run away.
I've done this with nasty dogs. I think they were pets but #1 was out to kill, #2 was following the leader and #3 was tame. I could see them charging from a 1/4 mile away and as they came closer I knew I was in for one hard time. So I wrapped my jacket (no time for base layer) on my forearm, assumed a defensive posture (left arm behind my back, wrapped arm leading well ahead for the bite) and looked #1 in the eye as he approached and leaped on to me. He caught me squarely on my wrapped arm which I proceeded to shove down his throat until he gagged. All the while I used him as a shield to protect myself from #2 who was trying real hard to get a bite in. By then I had realized I didn't have to worry about #3 at all (it was probably a real tame pet). Within a minute or so, #1 gags fully, releases me, backs off and continues barking aggressively. A few well placed kicks and they scamper off wherever they came from.
BTW, this technique will also work without wrapping the arm but it requires more finesse and you might still get a puncture wound.
Beachwalker
12-28-2006, 12:42
The mere thought of that experience scares the crap out of me. Therefore:
Step 1- remove Ruger P89DC from holster.
Step 2- administer lead poisoning to offending dog.
No, I don't carry, but the thought of it makes me want to consider it...
back to knives...
SGT Rock
12-28-2006, 12:43
P89's don't do it as well as the P90.
[quote=Beachwalker;293123] Looks a lot like the Gerber LST.. but about 4x the cost.
I checked out an LST at EMS a while back. Granted, there is a significant price difference (MSRP $68 vs. MSRP $22), but as a southpaw, I don't find the Gerber knife as comfortable to open or use. It also did not have a clip attached to secure the knife in one's pocket or pack. All I can say is that my Spyderco has served me well for nearly a decade.
I'd carry nothing less than an "a combination AK-57 uzzie radar lasar triple barrel double scoped heat-seakin shotgun "
leeki pole
12-28-2006, 15:30
a nice little snub nosed 38 with glasers is a pretty good deterrent
that said, the spyderco is a worthy option...nice blade, I've got one:)
leeki pole
12-28-2006, 15:32
just kiddin guys, I'd never carry a weapon on the trail...a knife is all you need
If the canines are getting nasty and you don't have a weapon handy, take your base layer (assuming you need the outer layers) and wrap it around your hand and forearm. Then stuff it into the mouth of the lead/largest (usually the pack leader). Let him go nuts with it until he gags and lets you go.
........
BTW, this technique will also work without wrapping the arm but it requires more finesse and you might still get a puncture wound.
Just so I'm clear - it's the intense hiker stench that gets them to back off - right?
i agree with bravo that a weapon with no training behind it is more of a liabililtyA liability? You're joking, right? An untrained guy with a knife or gun may not be as dangerous as a man trained with that weapon, but trained or not, a man with a weapon is more dangerous than a man without one.
Ever have a guy get mad at you in a bar and decide he wants to fight? Then he pulls out a knife or a gun and you sigh with relief. Phew. He doesn't look trained with that weapon. It will be a liability when he attacks me with it.
Nope, sorry. Trained or not, a man with a weapon is more dangerous than a man without one.
Nope, sorry. Trained or not, a man with a weapon is more dangerous than a man without one.
The reality of knife fights is that someone always loses. But someone doesn't always win!
P89's don't do it as well as the P90.
The little horsey beats both, though, the 1911A1:D
A liability? You're joking, right? An untrained guy with a knife or gun may not be as dangerous as a man trained with that weapon, but trained or not, a man with a weapon is more dangerous than a man without one.
Ever have a guy get mad at you in a bar and decide he wants to fight? Then he pulls out a knife or a gun and you sigh with relief. Phew. He doesn't look trained with that weapon. It will be a liability when he attacks me with it.
Nope, sorry. Trained or not, a man with a weapon is more dangerous than a man without one.
You are wasting your time trying to interject logic into a weapons topic with so many left-leaning, liberal, SP's here hanging onto every syllable like vultures with an agenda.:D
That said, I am of the opinion that any firearm is completely unnecessary for most-if not all- hiking trails. It certainly is not worth its weight carrying it upon the AT. But a good knife, on the other hand, is quite indispensable, and I dont see why everyone doesnt feel the same need to ;) carry one. I have carried a pocket knife all my life and feel naked without it; I 'wouldnt leave home without it'!
Pocket knife training? Just what part of that do you honestly feel I need?
Lone Wolf
12-28-2006, 19:13
I am of the opinion that any firearm is completely unnecessary for most-if not all- hiking trails. It certainly is not worth its weight carrying it upon the AT.
I wonder how the assault and rape victims over the years feel. And of course the murdered folks can't chime in.
You are wasting your time trying to interject logic into a weapons topic with so many left-leaning, liberal, SP's here hanging onto every syllable like vultures with an agenda.:D
I think the point is, unless you have training, having a knife for defense isn't going to do you much good.
It's like carrying a map, compass and/or ice ax. They really do you no good unless you know how to use them and in some cases, unless you know how to use them may do more harm.
Mother's Finest
12-28-2006, 19:38
1. I carry a lightweight gerber (and have carried the same knife everday everywhere for the past 14 years) 2.5 inch lockback blade, some type of lightweight plastic handle. Works great for cleaning your teeth, cutting cheese or spreading peanut butter. You can also use it for other utility chores.
2. that survival knife rock posted looks more like a skinning knife than anything else. damn agressive looking.
3. i concur that any weapon is better than no weapon at all, but our greatest weapon is our brain........
4. Lone wolf, you are one of the biggest gun advocates on this board, yet I am highly confident that in 99% of situations You will not need one. (some others on this board may)
5. finally, if you are going to do it, and you are going for your attackers throat, thrust the knife into the throat behind the windpipe, then thrust up and out. with a sharp knife, you will not be worrying about that attacker anymore.
************this advice is totally worthless, do not attempt to recreate*********
peace
mf
Lone Wolf
12-28-2006, 19:47
99% of the time you don't need to filter or treat water on the AT.
4. Lone wolf, you are one of the biggest gun advocates on this board, yet I am highly confident that in 99% of situations You will not need one. (some others on this board may)
peace
mf
Me thinks he already knows this. ;)
Lone Wolf
12-28-2006, 19:52
99% of the time you won't need a map to find the closest road in an emergency on the AT.
Mother's Finest
12-28-2006, 19:57
so are you saying that you are a 1%'er ????
peace
mf
so are you saying that you are a 1%'er ????
peace
mf
That's what you call someone who hikes 21.75 miles every day for 100 days.
My favorite knife is an AL Mar Falcon Ultralight with 3-1/4" locking blade, 40% combo edge, resin handle and pocket clip. This knife weighs only 1.5 Oz.
http://www.agrussell.com/knives/production/a_through_d/al_mar/eagle_ultralight_plain_edge.html
I found this knife a few years ago while hiking along a snowmobile trail. It was in the center of the trail frozen solid in ice. Took it home and cleaned it up. Perfect condition, this knife had never been used.
When I hike, I usually carry a $6.00 Home Depot no name pocket knife. My Al Mar is too nice to risk losing.
Tekna used to make a nifty little river knife that weighed about 4oz and looked mean as hell even though it only had about 4 inches worth of blade. Lost mine in a river years ago...
copythat
12-28-2006, 21:18
I think the point is, unless you have training, having a knife for defense isn't going to do you much good.
It's like carrying a map, compass and/or ice ax. They really do you no good unless you know how to use them and in some cases, unless you know how to use them may do more harm.
sly, you hit the bullseye on this one. :)
people feel FALSE security by carrying things they don't know how to use, or that can't be used the way they envision, and they put themselves at risk with that false security. 'if i have a cellphone, i don't have to worry about rockslides.' :eek:
you can carry anything you want, and you can think you're all prepared for whatever, but when the scat hits the fan it's not the weapon that does the work, it's the training and experience.
a p.s. to highway ... it's reassuring to know you were only kidding when you wrote about 'trying to interject logic into a weapons topic with so many left-leaning, liberal, SP's here hanging onto every syllable like vultures with an agenda.' 'cause if we didn't know you were only kidding, then we might think (wrongly, of course) that you were making wild assumptions about how some of us lean, and how we feel about weapons, and suggesting that perhaps we haven't grasped the logic that applies to the world you have figured out, but through which we continue to plod without aim. ;)
copythat
12-28-2006, 21:24
here's my trail/life partner ...
http://www.knife-depot.com/knife-45740.html
opens as fast as a switchblade, cuts through butter as fast as ... well, never mind.
I wonder how the assault and rape victims over the years feel. And of course the murdered folks can't chime in.
I am not against your carrying one. In fact I am not against more hikers carrying them. If more did, any would be -assaulter wouldnt know for sure exactly who was and who was not assaultable.
My state is a right to carry state and i have a carry permit. I wish more did. The more that have them the less apt for criminal attack because the criminals want know exactly who is carrying and who is not. That young lady going across an almost deserted parking lot in a shopping mall clutching her hand inside her purse, for example. To a would-be rapist in a right to carry state, that little hand just might be wrapped around a Walther PPK, given to her by a father who taught her to use it. In a right not to carry state the would be rapist could attach almost with impunity, certain that the little hand grasped nothing but a small can of mace, perhaps.
So, the more that carry, the better. But for me a Glock Mod 30 with 10 hardball rounds weighs 34.56 ounces too much for toting along the AT. But I wish you would. It would make it safer for more.
Hows that?
P
I think the point is, unless you have training, having a knife for defense isn't going to do you much good.
It's like carrying a map, compass and/or ice ax. They really do you no good unless you know how to use them and in some cases, unless you know how to use them may do more harm.
Now thats deranged thinking, comparing the skills for route-finding and self-arrest with the self-preservation instincts for saving one's life. I guess you didnt give that response much thought, did you?.
You opine that you do not stand a better chance of defending yourself in an assault upon your person if you have something to defend yourself with, unless you have had some 'training' with whatever the defensive weapon is?
personally, I'd prefer anything over just my bare fingernails in an assault upon mine. I would prefer my daughter have something other than just her fingernails, too, in an assault-whether she had your suspect 'training', whatever that might be.
But, if thats your opinion... Now you know mine.
a p.s. to highway ... it's reassuring to know you were only kidding when you wrote about 'trying to interject logic into a weapons topic with so many left-leaning, liberal, SP's here hanging onto every syllable like vultures with an agenda.' 'cause if we didn't know you were only kidding, then we might think (wrongly, of course) that you were making wild assumptions about how some of us lean, and how we feel about weapons, and suggesting that perhaps we haven't grasped the logic that applies to the world you have figured out, but through which we continue to plod without aim. ;)
Wrong on the first part, right on the last:D
I wonder how the assault and rape victims over the years feel. And of course the murdered folks can't chime in.
I dont know the number of the 'assault and rape victims over the years', but I do know that the numbers of murders along the AT have been quite low (8-10?)in comparison to the vast numbers of section and thru-hiklers walking along the trail, which would suggest that the AT is relatively safe with respect to murders. Of course you wouldnt be quite so smug with that knowledge were you the one being murdered, though, would you? Anyway, those murdered could have taken a weapon for self defense had they decided to. I certainly didnt say they shouldnt. Why did you say it?
Beachwalker
12-28-2006, 22:50
The little horsey beats both, though, the 1911A1:D
Nah, same as the P90, and I'd rather carry a P90 than a 1911A1... I am an Ultralighter, after all (which is why I recommended the P89... god knows how the Sgt manages to get into his hammock with a .45)
-- BW
moondoggy
12-28-2006, 23:29
I've carried a Spyderco for years...love that knife. But when I go hiking, I leave it home and opt for the old Swiss army knife, for utlity not for protection. I also own a pretty decent collection of guns, leave them home too. To darned heavy.
I think your best defense in any situation is to be aware of your surroundings, and who you're surrounded by...If something or someone feels wrong, it probably is......I also think the advice about camping away from roads and trailheads is pretty valuable.
I'd also like to suggest that we already carry a whole lotta' weapons as a normal part of hiking gear.....
I'd rather defend myself with 3' hiking poles then a knife with a 3" blade...
tent stakes.....pots and pans.....can 'o' soup accross the bridge of the nose..keys are great weapons....use the pack itself(maybe not the ultralights)....
Granted, none of these are going to defend against someone with a gun...but not much is, except a bigger gun, or a better shot...
I haven't been hiking long, but somehow all of us tramping around armed to the teeth just kinda seems outta character. Especially those three year olds with 10" bowie knives...lol
copythat
12-29-2006, 00:02
i am reborn, cleansed of petty concerns, freed of the desire to discuss the tao of self-protection and armament. what has changed? i have. my driving force, the answer to every question, is, for me now, "HYOH." :)
i could say i am now a liberal (tolerant of views differing from my own), but that is a most misunderstood word, as is conservative (working to preserve established tradition and institutions, opposing efforts to change them). perhaps libertarian ... (believing in full individual freedom of thought, will and action.) perhaps no label of convenience is needed. :)
well, label or no, i want you to know i embrace everyone's right to hold an opinion and to express it. and i promise not to snipe or be cranky when someone disagrees with me. :) and i promise to take a few deep breaths before i select 'quote.'
but i DON'T know whether i can hold my tongue when someone mentions HAMMOCKS!!!!! :eek:
icemanat95
12-29-2006, 00:08
The short answer here is to buy a sturdy knife that is fairly easy to keep sharp and maintain and is not too aggressive looking and carry that knife somewhere that you can access it effectively in an instant. Then practice accessing it over, and over, and over again, until 1. the novelty of it wears off and you stop finger ****ing the thing all day long and 2. it's as natural as scratching your nose and you do not need to think about it. Once you reach this stage you will stop drawing attention to it with your constant activity.
Next, or maybe long before this, go out and get yourself some realistic defensive training and practice, practice, practice. Chances are pretty good that you won't be able to get at your knife in time for it to make a difference, so your first line of defense is going to be the things you came into the word with, your hands, feet, elbows and knees and the brain that makes them work. So you better know how to use all of those. Beyond that I could talk to you all day long about self-defense theory, the relative morality of defensive violence, etc. and it would make no real difference. If you really worry about this stuff and want to do something to help make yourself and those around you safer, get trained and join the ranks of the sheepdogs out there. If you prefer not to worry about it, that's OK too, luckily the realistic chances of getting attacked and being forced to worry about it and deal with it are very, very low. But I can tell you from bitter experience that when that less than 1% chance comes in against you, it's a whole new world of suckage. If you want to learn stuff so that you can hurt anyone who wants to attack you and "why don't we go down to the docks and look for drunken sailors to dick around with," then you have some growing up to do...the drunken sailors will probably be happy to oblige.
Quite frankly people who ascend to yudansha ranking in martial arts (black belts) don't study martial arts to defend themselves, they study to improve themselves, and not just in their ability to survive and win physical confrontations. They improve their discipline, their maturity, their judgment, their responsibility. Children who study serious martial arts tend to do better at school and get in less disciplinary trouble both in school and in public. In fact, children who train in martial arts tend to have far fewer problems of this sort than those who participate in any team sports in school, because they have been drilled from the first day they walked into the training hall with the idea that violence is a last resort to be avoided if at all possible, and that proper choices can often allow an individual to completely evade the circumstances that could lead to violence. Martial Arts tend to change and evolve a person in ways that other endeavors do not, simply because of the awareness of the consequences. So instead of pondering which knife is the best choice for personal defense, start studying martial arts and get meaningful answers.
Wow! I have read all in many of this post. Iceman any many others have many reasons why a knife may not be good idea. I have no intention of using knife against person, but I also wish to understand how best to use a knife if I have to.
I agree that knife will make me feel safer only, I also now research how to use it both as utility and as self defense. I have researched many uses as utility, and will prepare and train for confidance.
I have spent nights in a tent with a small butter like nife while bothered by coyotees and I never felt safe even though I was eventually able to fall asleep. I am to a point where I want to get out of my tent and screem late at night to remind and to fight if neccesary, even if that makes me fool. I do not wish to participate in pocket knife training as i consume that to be common sense, and will consider any sort of training knowlege I am about to find.
I have this book for knowlege: The Voice of the coyote, By J.Frank Dobie written many years ago. This book discuss how afraid and fragile the coyote is, but I have not me this such coyotees.
I am have researched the knives all have supplied in this thread, and understand how you seperate utility from defense. And please believe that I look forward to a peacful night in the woods but I also understand it is my own responsibility to ensure my own safty.
I am looking to this knife as a utility knife that looks good for chopping an good handle for secure grip but i do not understand what knife it is, how much it weight, or how big it truely is
http://www.arizonacustomknives.com/default.asp
I am appreciate your comments to everyone. thank you very much if you have idea of this knife.
I must be sorry. the link that I provide is not correct. Here is the page that contains the picture of the knife I will look at
http://www.arizonacustomknives.com/survival_knife.html
It is the knife on the left side down to the middle of the page.
Thank you all friend.
Here is the page that contains the picture of the knife I will look at
http://www.arizonacustomknives.com/survival_knife.html
It is the knife on the left side down to the middle of the page.
It's a lot more knife than you need for the AT, in my opinion.
I look at this knife and i see ability more than stabbing. The cutting edge is lower thand the handle giving good cutting abilty for simple task and good chopping quality for small twig for kindle. The top of the blade does not have purpose of saw and looks to be more for cutting line quickly but could server as saw of some sort. The sheath looks a little fantastic but also very durable wich may serve both security on the part of my confidance and function?
I do not understand what knife this is. or how much it weight, but I like it so from the picture and my idea of its utility?
FanaticFringer
12-29-2006, 01:11
i am reborn, cleansed of petty concerns, freed of the desire to discuss the tao of self-protection and armament. what has changed? i have. my driving force, the answer to every question, is, for me now, "HYOH." :)
i could say i am now a liberal (tolerant of views differing from my own), but that is a most misunderstood word, as is conservative (working to preserve established tradition and institutions, opposing efforts to change them). perhaps libertarian ... (believing in full individual freedom of thought, will and action.) perhaps no label of convenience is needed. :)
well, label or no, i want you to know i embrace everyone's right to hold an opinion and to express it. and i promise not to snipe or be cranky when someone disagrees with me. :) and i promise to take a few deep breaths before i select 'quote.'
but i DON'T know whether i can hold my tongue when someone mentions HAMMOCKS!!!!! :eek:
HAMMOCK CAMPING IS THE GREATEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD!!!!!!!!!!
copythat
12-29-2006, 01:41
HAMMOCK CAMPING IS THE GREATEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD!!!!!!!!!!
HEATHEN! INFIDEL!! VAGRANT!!! SCOUNDREL!!!! :eek:
(gotta go. it's time to make a sandwich.)
FanaticFringer
12-29-2006, 01:52
Notice you never ever see a ground-dweller with an avatar pic of their tent right?
How was that sandwich??????
PB&J maybe??????
:banana
Notice you never ever see a ground-dweller with an avatar pic of their tent right?
So what's the point of identifying yourself or forging social connections according to your preferred method of slumber? :confused:
copythat
12-29-2006, 02:11
Notice you never ever see a ground-dweller with an avatar pic of their tent right?
How was that sandwich??????
PB&J maybe??????
:banana
"You smell that? Do you smell that? PBJ, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that. I love the smell of PBJ in the morning."
now i gotta go work for a living, maybe save up for some bungee cord soze i can hang my tent from a branch. try to behave while i'm gone. :) :) :)
http://www.knifeoutlet.com/shop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=KIGYUTO
A good chef's knife is all you need. Sure the German and French knives are classics, but the Japanese knives are now less expensive for a comprable products. Lighter, too.
A good chef's knife can do 99% of kitchen chores.
Oh you say...a kitchen knife is overkill on the AT?
Hmm...
Mother's Finest
12-29-2006, 15:54
tacoda you should get yourself a Ghurka Kukri. that will chop the head of any coyote, provided you can execute the swing properly.
peace
mf
lol mf. That made me laugh alot.
tacoda you should get yourself a Ghurka Kukri. that will chop the head of any coyote, provided you can execute the swing properly.
peace
mf
Well it has one of the same advantages that a 12 gauge pump shotgun does, it is mean enough looking that you are not likely to have to prove you know how to use it.
P
Now thats deranged thinking, comparing the skills for route-finding and self-arrest with the self-preservation instincts for saving one's life. I guess you didnt give that response much thought, did you?.
Read my lips sandbagger, I'll make it simple, what good is a knife unless you now how to use it? :rolleyes:
Beachwalker
12-29-2006, 20:00
Read my lips sandbagger, I'll make it simple, what good is a knife unless you now how to use it? :rolleyes:
Yeah, that about says it... :datzgood job!
-- BW
Skidsteer
12-29-2006, 21:06
http://www.knifeoutlet.com/shop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=KIGYUTO
A good chef's knife is all you need. Sure the German and French knives are classics, but the Japanese knives are now less expensive for a comprable products. Lighter, too.
A good chef's knife can do 99% of kitchen chores.
Oh you say...a kitchen knife is overkill on the AT?
Hmm...
Along those lines, I really do carry a Chef's knife (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ec3.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0001UZMOI.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V1100553981_.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.amazon.com/Joyce-Chen-My-Handy/dp/images/B0001UZMOI&h=500&w=500&sz=16&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=xxqoNu_S6z9owM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djoyce%2Bchen%2Bhandy%2Blittle%2Bknife %26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D), although it is a Chinese Chef's knife.
1.3 ounces with sheath.
doodah man
12-30-2006, 19:01
Well, I carry two 'cutting' items... A small metal embroidery scissors and a spyderco jester folder with a 2" blade. A total combined weight of 1.0 ounce and much more useful than the 0.75 ounce swiss army classic I used to carry. Wouldn't use either for self defense... doodah-man
Ok. you have all convinced me to carry a pistol.
oldfivetango
12-31-2006, 11:43
I am not against your carrying one. In fact I am not against more hikers carrying them. If more did, any would be -assaulter wouldnt know for sure exactly who was and who was not assaultable.
My state is a right to carry state and i have a carry permit. I wish more did. The more that have them the less apt for criminal attack because the criminals want know exactly who is carrying and who is not. That young lady going across an almost deserted parking lot in a shopping mall clutching her hand inside her purse, for example. To a would-be rapist in a right to carry state, that little hand just might be wrapped around a Walther PPK, given to her by a father who taught her to use it. In a right not to carry state the would be rapist could attach almost with impunity, certain that the little hand grasped nothing but a small can of mace, perhaps.
So, the more that carry, the better. But for me a Glock Mod 30 with 10 hardball rounds weighs 34.56 ounces too much for toting along the AT. But I wish you would. It would make it safer for more.
Hows that?
We sing from the same page,Brother Highway.I would like to advise the
liberal weenie SP's here that they are capable of using their BRAIN to
teach themselves how to use a knife in an emergency for self defense,
to wit: Stick the pointy end in the soft parts of the person or animal
that offends you!Next,draw the sharp part(known as the blade) across
the face or throat of the person or animal that offens you;particularly
the eyes! DO NOT hold the knife in the "peanut butter" position(ie like
you do when you spead pnut butter or margarine).Grasp the knife handle
in your fist with the pointy end toward the ground and the sharpy side
(the blade) toward your attacker.This is GREAT for those little wimp knives
most of you propose that will not stab anything with any effect but you
can now at least use your tiny knife like a rooster's spur to effectively slice
on your attackers face and/or throat.Get the picture?NOW YOU ARE TRAINED!
My own knife of choice is a Gerber pocket knife for little chores(including
spreading the pnut butter) and a HUGE Gerber BMF ( basic multi funtion)
knife with the 71/2 inch blade-great for chopping wood,digging catholes,
splitting wood for the fire,and EFFECTIVELY stabbing soft organ parts of
wild animals including,but not limited to,dogs,bears,coyotes,snakes,cats,
and homosapiens.
Cheers to all,
OLDFIVETANGO
We sing from the same page,Brother Highway.I would like to advise the
liberal weenie SP's here that they are capable of using their BRAIN to
teach themselves how to use a knife in an emergency for self defense,
to wit: Stick the pointy end in the soft parts of the person or animal
that offends you!Next,draw the sharp part(known as the blade) across
the face or throat of the person or animal that offens you;particularly
the eyes! DO NOT hold the knife in the "peanut butter" position(ie like
you do when you spead pnut butter or margarine).Grasp the knife handle
in your fist with the pointy end toward the ground and the sharpy side
(the blade) toward your attacker.This is GREAT for those little wimp knives
most of you propose that will not stab anything with any effect but you
can now at least use your tiny knife like a rooster's spur to effectively slice
on your attackers face and/or throat.Get the picture?NOW YOU ARE TRAINED!
My own knife of choice is a Gerber pocket knife for little chores(including
spreading the pnut butter) and a HUGE Gerber BMF ( basic multi funtion)
knife with the 71/2 inch blade-great for chopping wood,digging catholes,
splitting wood for the fire,and EFFECTIVELY stabbing soft organ parts of
wild animals including,but not limited to,dogs,bears,coyotes,snakes,cats,
and homosapiens.
Cheers to all,
OLDFIVETANGO
That's cute and can work but it's not training. I won't argue that anyone can stick or cut someone. Someone can also point and spray pepper spray too. The concept is SUPER simple. Under pressure when your adrenaline dumps and your fine motor skills are nowhere to be found that FALSE sense of security that one has with a knife probably isn't going to do much good.
I always carry a knife. I use it nearly everyday at work. If caught in a protection situation I very well might use it too. It all depends. I've had some martial training that involved guns, knives, sticks, etc. Funny thing about that is sometimes you don't know what you don't know. I learned pretty fast what I didn't know. All those action movies and playing around in the backyard as kids was only really good for FALSE confidence.
Bottom line is if you're going to carry anything specifically for protection(we even got condom training in school) get some training. Why wouldn't you??? Get yourself put under pressure and find out what your natural reaction is when someone attacks you. I bet most people don't know what they'd do?
oldfivetango
12-31-2006, 19:26
Say Bravo!
I think the premise that started all this was the question
of whether or not you want to have some sort of weapon or nothing
but your bare hands?
Against an animal(most likely a wild dog) the average bare
handed human has little to no chance at all.A club or a knife ups the
ante considerably.I hear what you are saying about training and false
security as some people could have a false sense of security because
they don't have what it takes to stick the pointy part of a knife in
a living thing.Fortuneately that is not my problem.So people who have a
problem with defending themselves without some sort of advanced degree
in the subject might as well stay home IMHO.
As for my own training,I can't find any volunteers to attack
me whilst I attempt to stick or slash them.In this day and age it's SO
hard to find a decent volunteer anymore!
copythat
12-31-2006, 19:48
:-?
Say Bravo!
I think the premise that started all this was the question
of whether or not you want to have some sort of weapon or nothing
but your bare hands?
ok, i hate to be blunt --- well, maybe i don't hate to be blunt, when i think it's called for --- but you're completely wrong on this one. the premise was (and, for those of us who are still paying attention, remains) that a weapon without the skills to use it can be more of a liability than an asset. not that we should do battle, unarmed, with bear or psychotic trail mates or escapees from maximum security penal colonies. nope. the premise was that if you wanna carry a gun, you better f*******n :eek: know how to use it, and if you don't know how to use it -- if you have no training or skills with it -- you can EASILY get into more trouble having it than not having it. same with a knife. same with a shovel. or mace. or sewing needles. OR EVEN A COMPUTER! :eek:
there. i was blunt. i hope i didn't upset anyone.
oh, btw, i am NOT a liberal. NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT. and if i sense again that you are CALLING me one (this seems to be one of those knee-jerk themes of several people in this thread, to whom i suggest trying coming up with something original and not just some parroting some one-trick pony from tv/radio), i'm going to be REALLY upset. i may even call you ... well, don't tempt me. :-?
If you meet someone and events cause you to rationally conclude the other person isn’t going to allow you to depart without suffering serious physical injury, if not death, some here have stated it’s better for you to not have a weapon.
I knew a guy who had lived in a foreign country for years in order to study “their” martial art. He then changed martial arts, and lived in another country learning their martial art. He continued his training until he had learned three different martial arts. He was the first foreigner to win one country’s national title in its martial art. He carried a handgun for his defense. He had been trained how to use it, but he had concluded, despite all his martial arts training, any tool is better than no tool.
If you and I meet and I conclude you aren’t going to allow me to leave without suffering serious physical injury or death, and we both notice a rock of the “right” size accessible to each of us, I shall appreciate you mot picking it up. You may have concluded it wouldn't be wise for you to pick it up since you hadn’t been to rock school. I will pick it up. I will use it against you, tilting the odds in my favor.
Sometimes a wolf meets a sheep. Sometimes a wolf meets a wolf. It's a decision you should make ahead of time.
happyhunter
12-31-2006, 22:44
Lots o' topics...
Ignore the sheep who think bad things only happen to other people. Your desire for knowledge indicates you know it can happen to you.
You asked about defense against dogs/cyotes. I delivered newpapers for 8 years and have been bitten before. Never run from a dog, you'll only be tired when they bite you. I too carry a knife. Great for cutting up food and general purpose tool. Not a great weapon but much better than nothing. Get a good folder with a 4 inch blade and get familiar with it. Sure, training is good. They will teach you how to fight someone else who has a knife. Noone teaches knife fighting against dogs. I think you just have to think about it and wing it when the time comes. Think where to land cuts and Rover will probably take off running. Don't worry much about which knife to use. Get the biggest blade you are willing to carry. I think backpackers are too obsesive about weight. I am beginning to think I carry more in my pockets and belt on a 24/7 basis than many backpackers do when they are out. I like Swamp Rat Knives. Do a search on the net for it. They make great knives useful for anything, especially cutting down wood for fire making. Great blade steel at a not too ghastly price.
I would recommend a good stout stick. You can smack a dog and stay out of reach of his chompers. This will produce the desired outcome. Poking action is prefered to wild swinging. Pepper spray also is quite good unless it is raining or windy. Best would be a blade on a stick, like a spear or pike.
The training thing really bugs me. I think most people talk of this because they know nothing of fighting. Somebody had to figure it out before training existed. Training can save you time and get you up to speed quickly. This is nice. I have had a good deal of firearms training and it is good. I have met many people who have had training that really could not do very well. Training is not everything. There is some instictive knowledge you are born with. Training helps that instictive knowledge. Some people training just can not help. I've seen them and when people say "training" it just grates me. Sorry I digress...
oldfivetango
01-01-2007, 10:48
:-?
ok, i hate to be blunt --- well, maybe i don't hate to be blunt, when i think it's called for --- but you're completely wrong on this one. the premise was (and, for those of us who are still paying attention, remains) that a weapon without the skills to use it can be more of a liability than an asset. not that we should do battle, unarmed, with bear or psychotic trail mates or escapees from maximum security penal colonies. nope. the premise was that if you wanna carry a gun, you better f*******n :eek: know how to use it, and if you don't know how to use it -- if you have no training or skills with it -- you can EASILY get into more trouble having it than not having it. same with a knife. same with a shovel. or mace. or sewing needles. OR EVEN A COMPUTER! :eek:
there. i was blunt. i hope i didn't upset anyone.
oh, btw, i am NOT a liberal. NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT. and if i sense again that you are CALLING me one (this seems to be one of those knee-jerk themes of several people in this thread, to whom i suggest trying coming up with something original and not just some parroting some one-trick pony from tv/radio), i'm going to be REALLY upset. i may even call you ... well, don't tempt me. :-?
For the record-I have not mentioned any poster to this forum by
name.Go read the posts and have a Happy New Year!
Oldfivetango
icemanat95
01-01-2007, 11:30
The beauty of training is that it allows you to learn from the mistakes of others before they get you hurt making them again.
However, if you are fighting for your life, then you better grab anything that might give you an advantage and use it. A handful of dirt, ashes from the firepit, a pot of boiling or hot water, a lit stove, and unlit stove, spray alcohol or fuel in the bastids face, kick him in the nads, poke him in the eyes, cut him with a knife, beat him with a stick or a rock. Very often it's not an absence of training that kills people, but an absence of fighting will and aggressiveness. Aggressiveness is the one thing your attacker is likely to have in spades, and if you can't up the ante on him and take away his initiative, you are going to be reactive and he's just going to wear you down.
Fortunately, for the vast number of people (over 99%), most are never going to have to worry about getting attacked. It's just not going to happen and these discussions are just grim and nasty reminders that human beings have an awful capacity for brutality and violence, and that as much as we might wish otherwise, someone, somewhere ends up suffering for it. So do we hope that this evil passes us personally by and do nothing to prepare against it, or do we prepare ourselves dilligently, hoping that the evil passes us by, but prepared for it should it stop to pay us or someone near us a visit?
Do you carry a knife for defense or not? That's up to you, are you comfortable carrying a knife for personal defense? Do you understand that if you draw a knife to defend yourself, you pretty much HAVE to use it if it's presentation doesn't immediately send the attacker running? Do you understand that a knife's stopping power is nil and that to stop and attacker with a knife, you have to do more than inflict a few superficial cuts, you have to cut through critical tendons to restrict his movement and/or injure critical blood bearing organs or arteries to cause rapid hypovolemic shock?
These are questions you have to answer for yourself, realistically and honestly. These ARE NOT easy issues. They are morally, ethically and aesthetically UGLY, and there really aren't any right answers to them. Inflammatory language only makes it uglier.
No one can tell you how to defend yourself with a knife or anything else over the Internet. It really takes an experienced teacher.The best we can do is provide information from our experiences and our training and hope it helps.
I've been the victim of random street violence. I can't tell if my resistance helped me or just got me hurt worse, but I wouldn't do it differently today...other than having more skills and tools at my disposal.
To live free from this sort of oppression is your right as a living being, but its a right you must assert or someone else will take it away in the pursuit of his own power and selfishness.
halftime
01-01-2007, 12:09
I pack a small Rapala Fillet Knife. 4" blade is razor sharp. With leather sheath weighs 1.75 oz. Found it to be practical for many things.
http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.TextId?hvarTextId=15922&hvarDept=100&hvarEvent=&hvarClassCode=11&hvarSubCode=8&hvarTarget=browse
Also carry a small canister of mace/pepper spray. This brand has a 9' range and weighs 2.5 oz.
http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.TextId?hvarTextId=52112&hvarTarget=search&cmCat=SearchResults
copythat
01-01-2007, 17:25
We sing from the same page,Brother Highway.I would like to advise the
liberal weenie SP's here that they are capable of using their BRAIN to
teach themselves how to use a knife in an emergency for self defense ...
Cheers to all,
OLDFIVETANGO
totally true, oft, that you've never mentioned anyone by name. you have, however, seemed to lump those who advocate training under the tattered 'liberal' umbrella, which i find confusing (ever meet an nra member who didn't advocate learning how to shoot?) and annoying.
1. i advocate training. when i bought my daughter pepper spray, i made D**N sure she learned how to use it, and i make sure she practices to this day.
2. when i started carrying a knife, i made D**N sure i knew how to use it, and WHEN to use it, and when NOT to use it. fyi, i lived most of my life in a major city (not "bathed in an intoxicating mixture of magnolia and moonlight") and have actually USED my knife on the streets (and in an elevator once, but that's another story) and have also chosen when NOT to use my knife on the streets. it is THIS KIND OF TRAINING that KEEPS ME (and my daughter) SAFE. well, safER, anyway.
yeah, sure, carry a club strapped to your pack and you'll probably be safer on the trail than if you had to scurry around to find the "right" rock, but the original question was about finding the "right" knife to cut cheese, whittle bottle stoppers AND defend against psychotic trailmates bent on death and destruction. and several people have simply -- prudently -- suggested that knowing how to use that cheese-cutter is AT LEAST as important as having it with you in the first place. i don't see the debate, except for the few people on this thread who INSIST on trying to make this into some kind of red state/blue state thing.
grumph.
i'm done ranting.
i'm taking my knife and going home to teach my daughter how to use it so she's ready for the day she runs into one o' them psychoneoconservative types who's gonna try to talk her to death.
:eek: :D :eek:
oldfivetango
01-01-2007, 18:06
My apologies to you,Copythat.It's just that I initially didn't
consider cutting or stabbing someone with a knife to be something
that really requires much training as compared to other things like
the martial arts or using a firearm properly,etc.So,please forgive me
for improperly deducing or implying that you had a leftward slant,
which you obviously do not since you are packing that BADASS S&W
3.25 folder which is plenty enough to get the job done in a pinch and
for using it in an elevator!Man,I would love to hear that story.
You are correct that training is key;which is why I do not supply my
wife or daughters with anything other than spray because I doubt they
could use anything else effectively and, in fact, a hard weapon would be
much more of a liability for them in that event.
Since using a knife for self defense for the average male is not exactly
rocket science I would stress that mental preparation and the readiness to
actually use it is the real issue here.One more thing I would like to point out
is that pulling a weapon is absolutely the last resort because it will only make a touchy situation worse.Better to make like that Kenny Rogers song
and "walk away from trouble when you can"-but just like that ole boy in the elevator-you can't always do that now can you?Anywhow,I salute you
for that!And I stand corrected.
Oldfivetango
copythat
01-01-2007, 19:07
My apologies to you,Copythat.It's just that I initially didn't
consider cutting or stabbing someone with a knife to be something
that really requires much training as compared to other things like
the martial arts or using a firearm properly,etc.So,please forgive me
for improperly deducing or implying that you had a leftward slant,
which you obviously do not since you are packing that BADASS S&W
3.25 folder which is plenty enough to get the job done in a pinch and
for using it in an elevator!Man,I would love to hear that story.
You are correct that training is key;which is why I do not supply my
wife or daughters with anything other than spray because I doubt they
could use anything else effectively and, in fact, a hard weapon would be
much more of a liability for them in that event.
Since using a knife for self defense for the average male is not exactly
rocket science I would stress that mental preparation and the readiness to
actually use it is the real issue here.One more thing I would like to point out
is that pulling a weapon is absolutely the last resort because it will only make a touchy situation worse.Better to make like that Kenny Rogers song
and "walk away from trouble when you can"-but just like that ole boy in the elevator-you can't always do that now can you?Anywhow,I salute you
for that!And I stand corrected.
Oldfivetango
and my apologies for getting cranky and for ranting. (i have my german grandfather's temper. a great thing to take after him in many ways, but not to have taken on his temper!) :o
that knife of mine won't keep the gram weenies happy, but it is a great tool. cuts cheese great, whittles great for those times i've forgotten my spork ... balances great AND it opens as fast as a switchblade and makes plenty of noise when it does. :D
(i like the 'tango' in your name. not long ago on the high seas it meant 'keep clear of me'!)
happy and safe new year, oft. and best wishes.
copythat
01-01-2007, 20:04
Real men carry bazookas.
check out the loft on these babies!
http://www.touredge.com/products/mens/qlwoods.html
keep you toasty pretty much ANYwhere. :rolleyes:
mweinstone
01-01-2007, 20:26
i never hike without several forms of self defence. first i allways have a shotgun and a bolaro with about 20 shells. i like to mix em up, sluggers and 00 buckshot. next i carry two pistols. a 45 on my thigh and four clips for it. and a 45 under my arm for back up. with two clips . all these rounds are glazers. next i have my kabar marine fighting knife. its on my other theigh. and to round things out, i carry two slingshots with both glass and steel ammo. the david style soft slingshot is in my pocket in case of last resort . and my folding wristrocket slingshot is in my pack.i figure we should be like denero in taxi when were out and about in this crazy world. i like a shoot first ask questions later type approch to hiking the AT . mostly i just shoot innocent birds and critters. but i hope to get me some horse theives some day. it must be great to dispence justice on a wim. hangin. theres a sport. i never met a hiker on the AT i didnt feel needed a good woopin, its just that they smell and i didnt wanna get mildred upset a commin home all smellt.
SGT Rock
01-02-2007, 01:35
Real men carry bazookas.
Chuck Norris is a real man, and he wouldn't need a knife or a bazooka. His entire body is a weapon.
Do you understand that if you draw a knife to defend yourself, you pretty much HAVE to use it if it's presentation doesn't immediately send the attacker running? Do you understand that a knife's stopping power is nil and that to stop and attacker with a knife, you have to do more than inflict a few superficial cuts, you have to cut through critical tendons to restrict his movement and/or injure critical blood bearing organs or arteries to cause rapid hypovolemic shock?
These are questions you have to answer for yourself, realistically and honestly. These ARE NOT easy issues. They are morally, ethically and aesthetically UGLY, and there really aren't any right answers to them. Inflammatory language only makes it uglier.
Some interesting thoughts here. I'm little surprised The Weasel has not been heard on this. I know this is off the original topic a bit and I'm not looking to turn this into a legal issue, but just want to pose some food for thought. If you do thwart an attack by using violence, be it self-defense with or without a weapon (but certainly more so when weapons are involved) you need to answer for those actions... whether justified or not. Just the other day I was watching a re-run of Deliverance. Remember the debate scene after "Lewis" shot the "mountain man" in the back with the arrow? Whether Lewis' actions were justified or not, he knew he would have to defend himself (his actions) before a court of law. As Lewis pointed out, he didn't want to go trial with the any of the mountain man's relatives sitting in the jury box.
I am not suggesting for you to be passive and not defend yourself or another, but just for you to be brutally aware of the consequences of your actions in terms of whether you will be deemed to be morally right, ethically right, and most importantly, legally right.
trail ronin
01-17-2007, 01:44
For 1st quality fighting knifes , go to http://www.topsknives.com/
For knife fighting instructional videos go to http://www.coldsteel.com/edweaptrain.html
Just remember , it takes at least 10 years of daily training before you are more dangerous to anyone other than your self. If you aren't prepared and ready to kill with a weapon when you pull it, you have just armed your attacker.
This debate seems to come up a couple times a year. Amazingly enough, this time it has remained fairly civil. Bravo!!
I carry the smaller, 5" version of the KABAR. I use it for camping and hunting. Great at cutting wood for stakes, shaving logs for kindling and fuel for the Nomad stove and cleaning game. Best of all this knife is practically bullet proof. I don't carry it for defense, I don't have training. I do feel that I could figure out how to stick someone a few times if the need come up. Lets all pray it doesn't.
I also carry a gun whenever I legally can. This includes for hiking and canoeing. I just like guns and knives. I've been known to wake up early and try to bag a coyote or other game. Sometimes we find time for some target practice. Here in Iowa there is always something "in season". Also, fact is, I'd feel dang stupid if I needed and I left it at home. The one trip I took with out a gun in recent years was also the trip where I came close to needing a gun. I'll never have to use a gun or a knife (Thank God) but heck, I've never once got home, to camp, or to a hotel and said "Geez, I wish I would of left it behind". I have however said that about the wife, the kids, the tent, the sleeping pad, the gas stove, etc.
Moral of the story, if you want to take a knife, even a big one, and it's legal for you to do so, than do it. In reality, you don't owe an explanation to anyone. If someone is uncomfortable being around a person with a knife or gun, good. More than likely they are the kind of person I like seeing uncomfortable. But if they look at them and say, "Cool, is that a Ruger?" or "What kinda steal did they use in that knife" I have a feeling we will get along just dandy.
CB
4eyedbuzzard
01-29-2007, 02:44
...for me a Glock Mod 30 with 10 hardball rounds weighs 34.56 ounces too much for toting along the AT.
Yeah, but it makes a nice hammer to drive tent stakes.:rolleyes:
Kel-Tec P3AT, .380 auto, under 10 oz with 7 rounds. I don't put a lot of rounds through mine, but the model with the hard chrome slide is considered more reliable by LEO's.
http://www.kel-tec.com/p3at.html
SunnyWalker
10-14-2008, 21:36
I've got one of those big ole Buck sheath knives I will use on the AT Thru Hike. I don't see it for protection though. Certainly, over the years th least of my worries has been Coyotes. And I have tented and hammocked. The knife was a gift and it would mean a lot to my dau to take it. Also, when I was a kid we always used single blades knives such as this on camping and long hikes, short hikes, etc. Do I care what ogthers might think? I might, I might not. If they do bother me I will just hike on or find a different camping spot. To each his own. -SunnyWalker
Montana Mac
10-15-2008, 07:31
the coyote problem I have had with tents is not fun even though it keeps me up at night.
I will admit that I did not read all of the posts so this may have been mentioned before.
Once you string your hammock urinate in various areas near and around your hammock, to mark "your" territory. While guiding if someone shot an elk late in the day we would gut it out - drag the gut pile away and then urinate around (not ON!) the elk. NEVER had a problem with the coyotes touching the animal.
Homer&Marje
10-15-2008, 07:53
.......
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=25665&catid=member&orderby=views&direction=DESC&imageuser=17846&cutoffdate=-1
I think the point is, unless you have training, having toilet paper for wiping your butt isn't going to do you much good.
It's like carrying a map, compass and/or ice ax. They really do you no good unless you know how to use them and in some cases, unless you know how to use them may do more harm.
:eek::banana:banana:banana:sun
SunnyWalker
10-16-2008, 21:39
Really though, I think the most efficient "device" for "self defense" on the AT is a small spray can of OC and/or CS, i.e., orthochlorobenzalmalononitrile(CS), oleoresin capsicum (OC). This will give the hiker confidence and the ability to knock someone down and to get away. I carry it and you can find different "models" of this at various outdoor stores and etc. I saw a display at the local Gander Mtn., that had 12 different product/cans of this.
Along those lines, I really do carry a Chef's knife (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ec3.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0001UZMOI.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V1100553981_.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.amazon.com/Joyce-Chen-My-Handy/dp/images/B0001UZMOI&h=500&w=500&sz=16&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=xxqoNu_S6z9owM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Djoyce%2Bchen%2Bhandy%2Blittle%2Bknife %26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D), although it is a Chinese Chef's knife.
1.3 ounces with sheath.
Would you please provide the link that shows the other info and has the
buy it link on it.
The link you provided only lets you see a pic of the knife. I like what I see
a lot, and carry a smaller version. Expensive ?
I have, and will again, used pepper spray, rocks, and proper sized sticks in
self-defense from animals, both two and four legged.
A fixed bayonet on a M-14 would work pretty good. Shoot em, cut em up,
and put em on a spit !