View Full Version : Base layer and layering
Chaco Taco
12-28-2006, 15:17
I am shopping around for the best deal on good longjohns. Will be in GSMNP MArch 9-18. SHould I just get a good pair at Target or go for the Columbia or Patagonia set? Where can I get the best deal on good thermals? The one's I have been using, I have had for about 6 years and they have had it.
Lone Wolf
12-28-2006, 15:20
go to www.campmor.com you don't need expensive stuff.
Footslogger
12-28-2006, 15:21
Check out this website. This outfit shows up at TrailDays every year and has a booth. I've bought some stuff from them.
http://www.theunderwearguys.com/
'Slogger
I always buy the cheapest pair of Polypro I can find. It is all polyester in the end! Polypue may stink more...but after a few days in the backcountry they all stink the same! :)
I bought my first ever name brand piece of long underwear recently. A GoLite zip-neck top. Of course, it was only $5 at a factory sale! My old zip neck was a generic one that lasted 5 years of contstant winter use. The shoulder blade area was just too thin at this point!
refreeman
12-28-2006, 19:54
Base layers made from merino wool don’t stink like polypropylene, capilene and other synthetic materials do. After several days on the trail the stink of polypropylene will make most hikers smell as bad as road kill skunk. If you don’t like the smell of your clothes hamper when you have neglected doing the laundry for a while you might look into merino wool base layers. Old laundry smells good compared to polypropylene stink.
And the stink from your synthetic clothes can and does contaminate you sleeping bag and other fabric goods.
The top 3 brands of merino wool base layers are Smartwool (my favorite), Icebreaker, Ibex - Patagonia (new to the game with an excellent start), Duofold (good cheaper brand), Arc’teryx (rho’s always great quality) and there are several other brands too.
Merino wool base layer cost more and they can be expensive. Why? Because they are made from sheep’s wool. Synthetics are made from plastic/oil. I like to call synthetic clothing fancy plastic bags. In fact, some of the highest end synthetics are made by Patagonia (Patagoochie) and Patagonia advertises that their products are made with more than 50% recycled polyester, derived in roughly equal measures from soda bottles and fabric scraps.
Some synthetics dry a little faster than wool. However, a given weight of wool insulates better than the same weight of synthetic. Even more important, wool retains its insulating properties even when wet. Synthetics looses their insulating properties as they get wet. Wool is less abrasive than most synthetics, that’s one reason why merino wool socks are so highly thought of by many avid hikers. Chafing can be a big problem when hiking, merino wool base layers reduce this problem.
Wool is also naturally fire resistant. In fact, the early version of today’s firemen wore wool clothes to protect them from being burned. Also, fire blankets were made from wool; used to put out small areas of fire. Synthetics are made from oil, yep you would be wearing a **** made from fuel. Burn baby burn! Have you ever had stove or camp fire trouble?
Lets hear it for merino wool!!!
Polypue may stink more...but after a few days in the backcountry they all stink the same!
Polypue... Heh heh. :D
Even more important, wool retains its insulating properties even when wet. Synthetics looses their insulating properties as they get wet.
I was with you till you got to that line. I think it's all wet!
C'mon the reason hikers wear synthetics in the first place isn't because they're the most comfy, but exactly because they continue to insulate when wet. You can't imagine how hard I had to go looking for a polyester flannel shirt! Even Pendleton wool was easier to find.
Wool does retain insulating properties when DAMP. Soaking wet anything is no fun and just plain cold. :) Wool undies work well for winter if you overheat , sweat and standing around a bit.
Synthetic don't retain heat at all when wet...they just dry out more quickly. Handy if you are constantly moving. Not so handy if you manage to make your polys soaking wet and are not generating a lot of body heat.
Having said all that, think wool is indeed a great fiber. I just don't see the need for me to upgrade from my $10 polys to something more expensive. It works well for me, keeps me warm and dry, etc. If I could find $10 wool long underwear, I'd go for it. But, just call me "cheap" on certain items. Long underwear fits into that category!
(All by my lonesome self in the office...lots of snow coming down!)
refreeman
12-28-2006, 21:41
Wool does retain insulating properties when wet.
Here is a company that insulates HOUSES with wool.
http://www.sheepwoolinsulation.ie/faq.asp
Why use Sheep Wool Insulation?
There are many benefits in using natural sheep’s wool insulation, the most significant points being that:
- wool can absorb moisture and still retain its superior insulation properties
- wool has a naturally long lifespan and will extinguish itself in event of fire
- wool is perfectly safe to both the end user and the environment
Is wool more effective as an insulator than alternative materials?
Yes. Wool insulation has a very low conductivity which means it is very difficult for heat to pass from one side to the other. To compare wool to other common insulators examine the table below, here the conductivities are given in Watts per meter Kelvin (w/mK) – where the lower value is the better result.
refreeman
12-28-2006, 21:46
Here's what Patagonia's web site says:
Only a few ranches in the world are capable of growing wool that meets our standards for Performance Baselayers. While all wool retains its insulative qualities while wet, only exceptionally fine wool can wick moisture away from the skin. We buy only 100% merino wool from three superbly run ranches in the southern alps of New Zealand capable of producing wool fiber to an 18.5-micron fineness, or about one-fifth as thick as a human hair. We’re confident that our wool is the best in the world for use as a moisture-managing baselayer. And it is exceptionally soft against the skin, naturally odor resistant and machine washable.
http://www.patagonia.com/web/us/contribution/patagonia.go?assetid=8514
Yeah..I always believe company websites for marketing purposes. :rolleyes:
http://www.fordhamprep.org/gcurran/sho/sho/lessons/lesson17.htm
http://www.scs.sk.ca/cyber/elem/learningcommunity/sciences/chemistry30/curr_content/chem30/modules/module3/lesson2/heattemp.htm
I'll stick you and your sopping wet wool clothes in the Boulder creek right now with tons of snow. Tell me how warm you are going to get. :)
Wool can only absorb so much moisture. When it is WET (not damp) your gonna freeze your kiester off.
Simple logic.
"Warm when wet" sounds a lot better than "warm when damp".
[quote=Mags;293549]Yeah..I always believe company websites for marketing purposes. :rolleyes:
http://www.fordhamprep.org/gcurran/sho/sho/lessons/lesson17.htm
quote]
Actually, q=-kA(delta T) is more accurate for this purpose. and don't forget losses from radiation q= sigma x AxT and don't forget that when fluid (air/liquid) is involved, convection as well q= hA(Tsolid-Tfluid).
Egghead moment done now!!!
I learned that it is important to layer natural fibers with other natural fibers; and polyesters or "plastics" with plastics vs. mixing the natural and newer materials to stay warm.
hammock engineer
12-29-2006, 15:57
[quote=Mags;293549]Yeah..I always believe company websites for marketing purposes. :rolleyes:
http://www.fordhamprep.org/gcurran/sho/sho/lessons/lesson17.htm
quote]
Actually, q=-kA(delta T) is more accurate for this purpose. and don't forget losses from radiation q= sigma x AxT and don't forget that when fluid (air/liquid) is involved, convection as well q= hA(Tsolid-Tfluid).
Egghead moment done now!!!
Wow, flashbacks to my Basic Heat Transfer class. Basic Chemical Engineering at its finest. Good thing that was my only Chem E class.
JoeHiker
01-03-2007, 17:26
I hate wool. All wool. Merino and others. I hate how it feels. I hate how it takes so long to dry - compare to synthetics anyway. For me the stink isn't a problem because I wash my dirty clothes often enough. When I'm in the woods, I wash them in Dr Bronners.
After almost 25 years of running high mileage in the cold wet northeast, day after day, I found I already had almost all the clothes I needed for hiking. I'll stick to my synthetics. Nothing keeps me warm, comfortable and dry the way they do.
Slosteppin
01-04-2007, 10:04
I wore all synthetics (except socks) for over 25 years. They are great because they dry quickly. I always put something dry on at the end of the day, whether out for a day or for 2 weeks.
A month ago I bought a merino wool Icebreaker shirt for a base layer. I've been out about every other day either hiking, skiing or snowshoeing. Mostly alone but sometimes with groups. I've worn this shirt everytime out since I got it. With the synthetics I carried a dry shirt in the truck to change before I drove home. With the merino shirt I don't feel the need to change shirts. There is no wet and cold feeling when I stop moving.
The downside is the Icebreaker cost over three times the sum of the last 3 synthetic LS tee shirts I bought. I'm still trying to decide if the added comfort is worth the added cost.
Slosteppin
mythicyeti
01-07-2007, 00:13
Lets hear it for merino wool!!! Amen bro.
Everything has it's place but for my money (and wool ain't free) I'll take merino wool over synthetics on long smelly trips.
Campmor has some good deals on silk underwear right now for men and women
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?TM20070126&ctm=4-C200324867&catalogId=40000000226&categoryId=200324867&&storeId=226&langId=-1&memberId=12500226
oldfivetango
01-27-2007, 16:20
I threw out my polypro longjohns along time ago because
of the stench.Switched to silk long handles I got from Cabelas
with synthetic tee's and long sleeve shirts and zip off pants.
Fleece outer layer.Marmot precip jacket and Frog Tog rain pants.
Sound like a plan?
Cheers,
Oldfivetango
hammock engineer
01-27-2007, 16:46
I just bought 2 pairs of lightweight bottoms from SAC for $25 a piece. They were running a lot of smartwool icebreaker this fall. I just check after the 2am EST flip if I'm up and a couple times during the day. Sometimes I get lucky.
Wool is pricey but there are deals out there if you search.
hopefulhiker
01-27-2007, 19:06
I saw Merino wool on sale at Marshalls the other night... Fair disclosure (wife works for the company)
I wore all synthetics (except socks) for over 25 years. They are great because they dry quickly. I always put something dry on at the end of the day, whether out for a day or for 2 weeks.
A month ago I bought a merino wool Icebreaker shirt for a base layer. I've been out about every other day either hiking, skiing or snowshoeing. Mostly alone but sometimes with groups. I've worn this shirt everytime out since I got it. With the synthetics I carried a dry shirt in the truck to change before I drove home. With the merino shirt I don't feel the need to change shirts. There is no wet and cold feeling when I stop moving.
The downside is the Icebreaker cost over three times the sum of the last 3 synthetic LS tee shirts I bought. I'm still trying to decide if the added comfort is worth the added cost.
Slosteppin
Slo, I just bought the same shirt in 265 weight, I think. It is an absolute jewel. With the other synthetic wickers, I smell like a goat after about 5 minutes. The Icebreaker shirt is fabulous, With you all the way!
I have all the high-tech base layer stuff with X-static and whatever and I continue to use them but honestly the Polyprop longjohns stuff they sell at walmart is darn good stuff, it keeps you warm and it dries out faster than most of the high dollar undies that you get suckered into buying. You wont go wrong spending 10 bucks each for a top and a bottom, they are dark blue and be careful with them in the dryer... I've gotten blue plastic balls after setting the heat too high
You wont go wrong spending 10 bucks each for a top and a bottom, they are dark blue
I tend to agree with Swift. Almost all my outdoor activities involve using the generic polys. I've also used factory seconds from STP that are equally as generic and cheap.
My only name brand top is a Go Lite one I purchased for $5 from a recent factory sale. I finally wore out my generic synth top I purchased from STP and needed a replacement.
If you can find cheap, name brand stuff (ala my Go Lite top), go for it. Otherwise? I really don't think that there is all that much functional difference between one form of polyester vs. another. :)
Well I have worn the walmart brand of under armor and its great it just dos'nt last as long as the real stuff. I do wear the Sunny's Surplus fleace brand(above the sea) and it works great, now my base layer I whent from the merino wool to the EMS vapor wick. I kind of like the vapor wick mid weight. When your doing a thru hike I wold go with some walmart crap. Between cost and how long it last it might be a little cheaper. Check out campmor.com they have some great deals.
Pennsylvania Rose
02-05-2007, 09:59
I got Duofold midweight polypros for $5 a piece last month. Price is my biggest consideration with growing kids, but I've always been happy with Duofold, which seems to send overstock to Gabriel Brothers on a regular basis. The cashier at thought I was strange buying $50 worth of long undies, but I outfitted all of us. My daughter also has some silk that I got on clearance at an outfitters, but she doesn't like it much.
FanaticFringer
02-05-2007, 17:14
Wal Mart Rocky brand poly thermals are great. They have a microfleece look and feel to them on the inside. Usually sell out of them around November.
Chaco Taco
02-05-2007, 17:24
Just got some Kenyon Polypro. Nice and toasty. Make you smell a little but so has everything else I have ever had in the past.
Wool does retain insulating properties when DAMP. Soaking wet anything is no fun and just plain cold. :) Wool undies work well for winter if you overheat , sweat and standing around a bit.
Synthetic don't retain heat at all when wet...they just dry out more quickly. Handy if you are constantly moving. Not so handy if you manage to make your polys soaking wet and are not generating a lot of body heat.
Having said all that, think wool is indeed a great fiber. I just don't see the need for me to upgrade from my $10 polys to something more expensive. It works well for me, keeps me warm and dry, etc. If I could find $10 wool long underwear, I'd go for it. But, just call me "cheap" on certain items. Long underwear fits into that category!
(All by my lonesome self in the office...lots of snow coming down!)
I agree. Any damp or wet article of clothing against one's skin will tend to bleed off body heat and, therefore, cool one off as the wet/damp clothing slowly dries. So, against one's skin should be a thin layer that is fast-wicking, like any polypropylene.
Wet wool would insulate better than wet down, but anything wet will cool your body very quickly as it dries. That is why we sweat in the first place, remember. I agree with you Mags. And i would tend to go with my own experience rather that parrot manufacturer's claims while trying to sell their products
While laying i always wondered what is best against the skin. Today i hiked in minus two and wore Duofold coolmax shirt and merino wool henley shirt with a 200 fleece sweatshirt. Which is best to wear against your skin?