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veteran
06-16-2003, 14:49
Just finished reading Moose's report from Trailjournals.com. To me it's quite disturbing
that an individual, calling himself a thru-hiker,
can ruin another's hike. Let it be known that FUBAR is an a$$ hole and should be shunned.

This is worth posting in it's entirety.



Moose's 2003
Appalachian Trail Journal

First Previous Next Last
Tuesday, June 10, 2003
Destination: 4 Pines Hostel
Starting Location: 4 Pines Hostel
Today's Miles: 0
Trip Miles: 688.1

Bad things sometimes happen to good people. In over 2000 miles of hiking on
the AT, I've never seen the kind of problem we encountered last night. I
hope neither we, nor anyone else, ever encounters it again.
We ran into a group of hikers in Pearisburg that really disturbed me. The
group, which called themselves the Rat Pack, consisted of about 8 hikers
with another half dozen or so hanging on. This group was staying at the same
motel as we were but divided up in 3 different rooms. One of the rooms they
were using was next to us. The hikers in the room were so loud and so drunk
that we asked to be moved. At 2 AM, the whole group returned from a night of
drinking and stood outside their motel rooms screaming at the top of their
lungs. When we talked to the motel manager about them, the manager indicated
they had numerous complaints about the whole group. Just a wonderful
representation of AT Hikers.

After we left Peariburg, we saw the group again at Pine Swamp Branch
Shelter. They had taken over the shelter and were spending their afternoon
smoking weed. We decided to camp away from the shelter to both minimize our
interaction with the group and to stay away from their cigarette, and other
substance, smoke which Popsicle is allergic to.

The next morning, we found the rest of the group camped next to the river in
a campsite littered with beer cans. They had obviously been drinking heavily
for the last several days. We thought we were done with the group because of
their decision to yellow blaze into town and stay with some other hikers
they had met.

The next day, we found the whole group camped next to another road. Once
again the site was littered with beer cans and it was obvious there had been
a large party there. We figured the group would not catch us since they
couldn't hike with the kind of hangovers they must of had.

We came to the section of trail that goes over Dragon's Tooth and ends at
VA624 close to Catawba, VA. We had already done 16 hard miles that day, the
next shelter was another 6 miles, and it was 6:30 PM. There were no
campsites listed in the Handbook until the next shelter. Our two options
were to either stay at the Four Pines Hostel or attempt to get into the Down
Home Bed and Breakfast. Popsicle called the B&B but they were full. We
decided we would have to go to the hostel. We had learned earlier in the day
that the entire Rat Pack group had either hiked or yellow blazed up to the
hostel. We were concerned about the noise and partying but figured we'd camp
away from the main building and it would be quiet enough.

When we arrived at the hostel, there was a huge party underway. Most of the
Rat Pack was consuming large quantities of beer. There was also several half
gallons of hard liquor being passed around. We later learned the hostel
owner, Joe Mitchell, had gone into town and purchased the half gallons for
these hikers. There were a number of highly intoxicated hikers but one in
particular stood out. FUBAR, have to wonder about someone who would take
that as a trailname, was the worst of the group. He was screaming and
hollering and just being a pain-in-the-ass kind of drunk. Although I was
concerned about the noise, I figured as drunk as everyone was they would
pass out early in the evening.
After cooking dinner and getting cleaned up, Popsicle and I retired to our
tents. There were 5 tents in the yard behind the hostel. At first, it was
quiet enough to sleep. I drifted off about 10 PM and was sleeping pretty
well. About midnight, I woke to loud screaming and cursing. It was obvious
the person was FUBAR. His wife, Tripp, who was with him was attempting to
quiet him down and get him to bed. Although very annoyed about the
disturbance, I didn't see it as a big problem. I figured FUBAR would pass
out soon. Within the next several minutes, I heard FUBAR getting sick in the
grass behind the hostel Oh great, that should keep all the critters close by
happy.

About then, I hear a woman scream "Help, I'm being attacked. Someone call
the Police". I immediately sat up and tried to get out of my sleeping bag
and tent. I heard the screams again and it was then I recognized the woman's
voice as Popsicle's.

When I did get out of the tent, I caught a glimpse of Popsicle running down
the hill toward the hostel owner's house. FUBAR's wife had her legs wrapped
around him and another hiker was sitting on FUBAR. I heard FUBAR say, "I
can't believe I got punched in the face by a chick". Tripp kept saying to
FUBAR, "You've really screwed up now, you attacked a woman". I was trying to
get someone to tell me what was going on but everything was so confused that
I couldn't really get an answer. I was concerned that FUBAR had sexually
attacked Popsicle. I had an almost uncontrollable urge to stomp FUBAR's face
into a bloody pulp but I restrained myself.

I couldn't find out what was happening, so I went down to the owner's house
to find Popsicle. I found her inside, obviously shaken, talking to the
Police and reporting that she had been assaulted. When she got off the
phone, I got her to sit down and tell me what had happened.

All the noise had also awakened Popsicle. Since she was awake, she decided
to go down and use the restroom in the hostel. She had to pass by FUBAR who
was on the ground vomiting. As she passed by him, Popsicle said to FUBAR "
Very attractive, thank you for sharing". As she walked, she heard someone
running at her. Popsicle turned to see what was happening and FUBAR jumped
at her, placed both hands around her neck in a strangle hold, and knocked
her to the ground. Popsicle began to scream which is what I, and the other
hikers, had heard. In attempting to defend herself, Popsicle punched FUBAR
in the face, dug her nails into his stomach, and after several attempts,
kicked him in the groin. When she kicked him, FUBAR released his hold on her
throat and Tripp pulled him off Popsicle. Popsicle immediately got up and
ran down to the house.

The Roanake County police showed up about 15 minutes after Popsicle placed
the call to them. She related the story to the Police and answered their
questions. The two officers dispatched went up the hill to find FUBAR. By
this time there were three hikers sitting on him to restrain him.
Apparently, FUBAR would not cooperate with the two police officers and they
called for a supervisor to assist them. Between the three officers, they
managed to get handcuffs and hobbles in place. FUBAR continued to scream and
curse at everyone involved.

The officers placed FUBAR in the back of one of their cars but became
concerned when FUBAR attempted to kick out the side windows. They removed
FUBAR from the car and called for a paddy wagon to be dispatched. After
another 20 minute wait, it arrived. The officers placed FUBAR inside and he
was transported to jail. During the entire incident, I was amazed at the
restraint these three officers displayed. I was sure they would either have
to resort to pepper spray or batons to subdue FUBAR. They managed without
either. Although I had secretly hoped the officers would wail on his head
with their batons.

The officers explained to Popsicle that if she wished to file charges
against FUBAR, she would have to be present in court to testify. She readily
agreed to this. The investigating officer gave her case information and
instructed her to call in the morning to see if she would be required to
appear at a preliminary hearing. The officers departed and we all tried to
go back to bed and get some sleep. Fat chance!

The next morning when Popsicle called, she talked to the Sergeant that was
on scene. Apparently, FUBAR did not take kindly to being placed in jail and
there was an "incident" in the jail that was likely going to result in more
charges. Most disturbing was the fact that FUBAR has a prior record. The
Sergeant would not give specific details but it was apparent this was not
his first assault charge. His arraignment would not be for several days
because of his level of intoxication and the severity of the charges. Most
disturbing, the Sergeant warned about the distinct possibility of another
attack by FUBAR or some other attempt at retaliation. The Sergeant's warning
certainly placed a new light on our hikes to Maine.

At this point, Popsicle decided her hike was over. She no longer feels safe
around other hikers. She's concerned about having to hike while constantly
looking over her shoulder and worrying about being attacked again. She's
also concerned about my safety, although I don't really feel threatened. In
fact, I'd welcome a shot at this *******!!

Popsicle has asked me to continue my hike and not stop. I've decided to
attempt to locate my friends I started my hike with and do this section at a
later date. Popsicle is returning to Hawaii and will return to VA to press
charges against FUBAR.

What are the lessons learned here? I discussed at length with the hostel
owner, Joe Mitchell, his liability and involvement in this incident. Not
only was he illegally selling beer from his residence, he purchased the hard
liquor that really placed the evening out of control. Couple this with the
fact that at least one of those drinking was underage and that Joe ignored
the use of illegal drugs on his property.

I also don't understand FUBAR's "friends". They seemed to encourage his
drinking and out of control behavior. Then the next morning they all came
around and told us what a bad person he was. If so, why didn't any of them
try to get him under control?

Finally, why do we as AT hikers have to engage in this kind of destructive
behavior? More and more hostels are closing just exactly because of
incidents like this. Compared to my hike 2 years ago, I see a noticeable
negative difference in the reception in towns and businesses that hikers
get. I can only attribute this to the stupid behavior by a limited number of
hikers.

So, my hike will continue. But thanks to a small number of idiots, I've lost
a great hiking partner. I'll continue to journal once I get back on the
trail. To all of those hikers who helped us that evening at 4 Pines, thank
you. Popsicle is very thankful and grateful for your help. You should be
proud of your part in the evening. For the rest of you that were there that
evening, can you really look yourself in the face and say you were not part
of the problem?

Life is Good - Despite ********!
Moose
GA - ME 2003
-Moose

Peaks
06-16-2003, 16:51
Like everything else, all it takes is one bad incident to ruin it for all.

I hope that you post this message on other forums, with the hope that others learn just how fragile the relationship is between thru-hikers and many hostels.

Read Rober Rubin's book "On the Beaten Path" to learn why the hostel in Manchester is now closed.

Certainly, there is a lot of blame to go around. The hostel owner must share that blame. So, it's not just the thru-hiker in this instance.

Once you finish your thru-hike, I hope you realize what an obligation you have to give back to the trail. One way to do this is to become involved with ALDHA and their "Endangered Services Campaign" Hopefully, we can educate others to behave themselves better.

smokymtnsteve
06-16-2003, 17:16
Isn't this the same hostel where there was some talk some so-=called "shop-talk" last year that was very degoratory towards minority people?????

Youngblood
06-16-2003, 18:07
I think it is important to not put up with other thru-hikers that are disrespectful and/or threatening to others. I don't mean to imply that we have to police or physically punish them. I think that usually the best method is to just stay away from or banish them. I think that if they find themselves alone or ignored that they will either get off the trail or straighten up. If folks continue to hang with them and tolerate their hostile/insulting acts to others, they just continue or even get worse...in a way they take people hanging with them as approval for what they do. My advise is "don't hang with A-holes."

I AM NOT BLAMING THE VICTIMS! If you realize someone is a potential problem, make an effort to distance yourself from them so that they can't ruin your hike. Obviously, this don't always work (reference the first post on this subject) but it is your best defense. I would also like to point out that the vast majority of thru-hikers are great people and go out of their way to be courteous to and look out for other thru-hikers.

Dances with Mice
06-16-2003, 19:15
Don't reward the perp & his buds with the title of "thru-hiker". From Moose's account, the rowdies were just getting off on dressing like hikers and staying where hikers stay but they weren't doing much hiking. Sounds more like a travelling party with more emphasis on partying than travelling.

HYOH, and all that, but just as it takes more than some leathers to make a biker. it takes more than Goretex to make a hiker.

And, yeah, if you see a snake in the grass then walk around it and don't poke it.

manzana
06-17-2003, 06:55
I would rate FUBAR as a thru-hiker. He signed my logbook at Wayah Bald, North Carolina, in the 3rd week of March. You gotta give him credit for making it that far.

Trail Angel Apple

Trail Dog
06-17-2003, 08:11
i met FUBAR at Miss Janets in Erwin. he was leaving for Pearisburg after his multi week stay at MIss J's. He seemed like a nice guy, too bad he got drunk and out of control. It just backs up the fact that the majority of problems occur due to Drunkedness, and getting high.

Well only 12 days remain for my little 51 day section hike. In Damascus for now and onward till my time runs out.

Happy Trails

The Mule<-- my trail name
Rob <-- My real one

Former Member
06-17-2003, 09:33
/

Lone Wolf
06-17-2003, 09:58
Instant A-hole. Just add alcohol.

Youngblood
06-17-2003, 10:34
When I was a young boy, I had the good fortune to live next door to an old man who was an Osage Indian. He fit the profile of a "wise old man". I can still remember his comment to me after he witnessed a rather 'spirited' arguement between me and my best friend. "It is a waste of time trying to reason with a fanatic or an idiot". He didn't mention which one of us was the fanatic or which one was the idiot, but I knew.:-?

Youngblood

jojo0425
06-17-2003, 10:50
"Let the law figure out the facts first and what the circumstances were. As far as we know Moose could just be upset that his "Female" hiking partner had to go home. He never said he saw anything, nor do we know the credibility of Popsicle." Easyhiker

Yes, we need to let the law sort things out, however, what a "story" this would be if it were false or blown out of porportion. If Fubar was not creating havoc, would he be imprisoned? No. I am sure he is a decent fellow, when NOT drunk. We all are decent when not high or intoxicated! (Is there a lesson here?)

I've only hiked a section of the A.T. but can't imagine being without a good friend for any of it, so, yes, I too would be upset if my hiking partner left the trail because of fear from retaliation of a fellow hiker. Of all things to be afraid of on the trail (things falling on you, critters, injuries) it is a shame that now we have to be truly concerned of other hikers. One thing I have been telling all of my non-hiking friends and associates is about the relative safety on the A.T. and stories like this one sends a "I told you so" affirmation to those who don't hike.

Please, please, please, be responsible on the trail and be considerate of others. This is one of the last few places on earth that mankind and womankind can prove that we are reasonable creatures that can live in harmony with nature and one another. Let's not give anyone a reason to close a hostle or worse, the trail! This is a very sad story. :mad:

Smiley G

"Leave No Trace" Lesson: Be considerate of others

Blue Jay
06-17-2003, 10:56
Wow, a post from Easyhiker that does not reek of alcohol, racism or promote males assaulting other males. If it did not defend another drunk even worse than him, I wouldn't believe it was him. I'm still wondering who posted under his name.

Former Member
06-17-2003, 11:10
/

jojo0425
06-17-2003, 11:56
If Chris, Fubar, is truly upset by his actions, perhaps he could apologize to Popsicle.

I'm sure the Court can get a message to her from him or he could post a note on this site and apologize to her, her hiking partner and to all of the hikers that were present during his time of weakness.

Not casting stones here, however I do expect that my fellow hikers to respect me, others and the Trail. If you're into drinking and smoking pot, stay home and do it in your backyard. Leave the Trail to folks that love serenity, nature and communing with others of like mind. Please, give us a place to get away from the world.

Smiley G :(

Former Member
06-17-2003, 12:54
/

Blue Jay
06-17-2003, 13:18
What is this Bizzaro World??? "His crime is JUST simple assault", "I know Chris is hurt", "Maybe someone will visit him".
I hope he gets "visited" often.

Former Member
06-17-2003, 13:43
/

Ankle Bone
06-17-2003, 15:32
Since I’m new to this forum, I don’t know any of the other posters or if there’s any baggage floating around. I think this means that I may be able to post objectively or I’m about to feel the heat of my first flame.

Anyway, I’ll admit that when I first read Easyhiker’s post I thought “Give me a break, how can you defend this guy.” Then I stopped and tried to think the whole thing through based on what I know and how I feel about my friends. I also asked myself, What if this was me and my sometimes-hiking partner daughter who had gone through what Moose has described?

OK, based on those criteria, here’s my $.02:

If Popsicle was assaulted, then this is obviously a terrible thing that happened to her, and a bad incident for the AT and all who enjoy it. Especially women who have safety issues we guy don’t normally have to deal with. All of the facts of the incident need to be investigated then a decision as to what happened and what to do should occur. But it’s not our place to judge and decide here on a forum. Leave that to the courts and the cops. We can talk about it from each of our views, but I don’t think any of us know enough to make a judgment at this point.

The fact that Fubar was under the influence affects my thinking. If it was my daughter, and it was proven that she was assaulted, and if she asked my advice, which is probably not going to happen!, then my response would be one of two:

If Fubar, while sober, refused to admit his wrong and refused to apologize, then I’d go full force with the system.

If he sincerely apologized, and admitted he had a problem, and was willing to go through a real treatment program that somebody could confirm, then I’d encourage the authorities to go this route instead of filing charges. I’d hold the charges over his head until he completed treatment. If he can really be helped, I’d be all for it.

Finally, the problem as I see it is not alcohol or drug use. It is the irresponsible use of them. Anyone who can’t handle them should please leave them at home and refuse them if offered. If you want to take either with you, no problem. Just don’t rain on my hike with any out-of-control behavior. I’ll probably even drink with you if offered, and you’re welcome to light up whatever around me as long as you don’t mind that I’ll pass. Loud, fighting, arguing drunks are the reason I quit camping and started backpacking in the first place. I tell my non-hiker friends that you can’t describe what the AT is like until you hike some or all of it --- the trust, the friendships, the quiet. Let’s not mess it up.

Cpt. Chaos
06-17-2003, 18:13
Y'all, I met FUBAR at Trail Days. He seemed to be a real nice guy. I mean everyone is a bit crazy in life. Just turns out he lives his life to have fun and be crazy. But sometimes getting into too much fun and crazieness can get rough. I am saying that if this story is true, maybe the man should reflect and use this situation to his own advantage. Like I said, if this story is true, then FUBAR now can realise he has to set limits. I feel that some things just got a little too carried away. I wish the best of luck to Popsicle. I hope her emotional healing process goes well. I also wish the best for FUBAR. I hope that this situation gives him the realization that some things don't need to go so far.

This was totally stated on a median perspective. I am not choosing any side. Good luck to both people.

smokymtnsteve
06-17-2003, 18:22
WE ARE ALL DECENT WHEN NOT DRUNK OR HIGH???

Hardly......and lots of folks can take a little drink or smoke and still be very 'decent" folk...and then you have folks tht never drink or smoke who are absolute a88holes....

seems that the hostel"owner was also involveld in this matter....
and there have been other reports of trouble with this hostel..

excessive alcohol is ALWAYS a problem... most folk that are smoking are very laid back and don't want any problems or drinking around them....

hey "bluebird" LOL ....tell us aboout your experi3ence here at this hostel.

assault simple or aggravted is a very serious offence....

so you have a problem with drinking ...it's your problem not mine...keep it that a way ...just because you an alcoholic is NO excuse.

smokymtnsteve
06-17-2003, 18:33
I have meet MOOSE a couple times on the trail this year and I would tend to believe what he says as the TRUTH....

Mala
06-17-2003, 23:38
I would have to believe Moose, I was at Trail Daze when the police were called because Fubar was drunk and picking a fight with another drunk *******, Kentucky, at Hobocentral. I think it was Wed, or Thurs. night.

Dirtyoldman
06-18-2003, 00:23
Being drunk is no excuse for any kind of behavior....

Ankle Bone
06-18-2003, 08:38
Agreed. Being drunk is no excuse. And it probably did happen the way Moose described. I guess my point was that I've been around a few alcoholics who finally have an incident that makes them say hey maybe I can't handle this stuff. They are great to be around when sober, and you hope they figure out a way to stay that way. But I've been around a higher percentage of those who never get it. If Fubar is the former, I hope this is the turning point for him after whatever happens happens. If he's in the latter group, then he'll need to take his just punishment on this one and will probably get to know a bunch more cops in the future.

Happy
06-19-2003, 00:02
In reading the account by Moose, he states that Popsicle walking by Fubar on his knees throwing up, made the statement.."Very attractive, thank you for sharing !!!" Why?, even if you were previously upset with the groups behavior in the past few days, would you "throw fuel on the fire"? If you encounter a bear on the trail would you charge him??? I am in no way defending Fubar but that was not a VERY WISE COMMENT!

poison_ivy
06-19-2003, 08:18
Happy -- you're right... it wasn't the best thing for Popsicle to do... but it's understandable. But think of it this way. You've just hiked 16 miles and have attempted for several days to get past a rowdy crowd that has kept you up at night. Once again, you are forced to stay where they are and despite being exhausted they are keeping you up all night once again. So, you 're pretty angry and you make a stupid comment. A comment that in no way justifies getting attacked.

I am extremely frustrated with the comments on this board -- there seems to be people defending fubar and willing to cast aspersions on moose and popiscle saying that maybe they made it up or whatever. The police were called and he was arrested... and there were additional chages filed due to what he did at the police station. I seriously doubt nothing happened here, as some would have us believe.

As a woman who hikes on the trail, often alone, I find this incident completely scary. I don't care whether he was drunk or not... there is no excuse for attacking a woman and had she been alone, without other people's help, what could have happened?

Anyway, that's my two cents.
-- Ivy

Lone Wolf
06-19-2003, 08:46
FUBAR fkd up. Plain and simple. Popsicle is in NO WAY responsible for what he did. He needs a damn good ass whuppin. He pulled the same kinda **** at Trail Days. It's all about choices. You either drink or you don't drink. He chooses to drink and continually be violent. Being a "nice guy" when he's sober means nothing.

Ankle Bone
06-19-2003, 09:13
I agree that being a nice guy when sober means nothing as it relates to what somebody does and what the punishment should be. I guess I'm just an optimist that at some point some learn that they gotta get off the stuff because they can't handle it, and then they are actually ok to be around. I've been wrong on this many times, but the couple of times it's happened have been worth it. Again, you still hold the person accountable for their choices.

Happy
06-19-2003, 09:41
FUBAR even stated in his journal, that he had consumed hugh amounts of alcohol during his stay in town...from what some of you witnessed at Trail Days, he must REALLY have a problem. I can understand Popsicle's frustration on the situation....I would have probably said the same....it is just unfortunate that FUBAR was in such a state to react so STUPID !

jojo0425
06-19-2003, 11:32
There are two types of drunks, happy drunks and the mean miserable types. There are two kinds of people, happy people and the mean miserable types. I guess alcohol magnifies who and what you really are. Each of us need to decide who and what we want to be.

If you can control your actions (while drunk or high) then drink or do all you want. If you know you become hell with a backpack after a few, then abstain while on the trail. If you know your friend, hiking partner becomes a complete moron after a few, then encourage them to abstain or stay off the trail. We are a community and have to take some responsiblity for our community. We don't need to police one another, please no, but we need to take control of our environment.

One way to get hostel owners/workers to limit sales of alcohol would be to skip that hostel, boycott it. Get the word out to all hikers that this hostel is trouble and walk right past it. Once the business slows or stops, I'm sure they will make amends. The door swings both ways. Hey, dont' we want to rough it and live minimally anyway? One less hostel means digging a little deeper into our souls and toughing it out a little more. Well, this is hiking not Club Med. Happy Hiking all!

Smiley G

Footnotes
06-19-2003, 12:46
Had someone from the old school been present that night FUBAR would have first gone to the hospital along with a couple of his friends. Sometimes a good ass kicking will leave enough pain to get someone like that to focus on why he hurts so bad for so long. I get angry just thinking about him throwing a woman to the ground. Popsicle had every right to say what she did. My wife is a mental health specialist, and bless their souls, we need them, but too often I see her or colleagues work their butts off with some alcholic just to see him put his wife or one of his kids in the hospital. There is nothing funny about not being able to handle you alcohol. His behavior, as described, was disgusting.

icemanat95
06-19-2003, 13:32
There is nothing "simple" about assault. The ONLY time it is reasonable to lay hands on another human being in violence is when they are threatening you or another innocent person with imminent violent threat, that's it. Sparring by consentual sparring partners is a different issue. Neither of these cases holds true here.

What we apparently have is one guy, FUBAR, attacking another person who offered only verbal offense in rense to FUBAR's irresponsible and idiotic behavior.

The days of offering up drunkeness as an EXCUSE for behaviors went away two decades ago. Alcohol abuse is no longer a mitigating factor for auto accidents, domestic violence or anything else, it's an exacerbating factor now that makes the charges WORSE.

FUBAR has more than one problem. At best he is an irresponsible drinker with poor impulse control. At worst he's possibly a bit psychotic. BUT neither is an excuse for his behavior. We can acknowledge mental disorder and addiction problems without forgiving or excusing the crimes that bring those problems to light. FUBAR is still responsible for his actions and should cowboy up and face those responsibilities like a man.

There are waaaaay too many hikers out on the trail running away from responsibility. The long-distance-hiking community seems to encourage this sort of behavior. A thru-hike shouldn't be a way of dodging the responsibilities of life, and thru-hiking doesn't absolve a person of their responsibilities to their fellow citizens and human beings. A thru-hiker is still subject to the law and to the rules of polite human interaction. The law may find it difficult to touch hikers hiding behind the veil of trail-name anonymity, but that doesn't mean that you are not still subject to it.

Frankly, none of this seems unlikely to me. A person who takes on the name FUBAR (F*$ked Up Beyond All Recognition for those not familiar with informal military acronyms) is making a statement, and it's not a positive statement. The fact that he took a multi-week hiatus along the way also speaks to his dedication to his hike (he has none). The style of his hike as explained by Moose ( partying and yellow-blazing up the trail and littering his campsites with beer cans) demonstrates a total lack of responsibility and respect both for the trail, the environment, other thru-hikers and himself. Ther is a pretty well defined pattern here.

Now Easyhiker is correct, we only have one side of the story here, but even the info he has added doesn't make the story sound at all unlikely to me. The guy sounds unstable. He may have his moments of normalcy, but it also sounds like he loses all control when he falls off the wagon. It also sounds like he doesn't make much effort to stay on the wagon. This is not the picture of a responsible person.

As far as whether I maintain friendships with people who screw up, I do..depending upon how they deal with it afterwards and what the screw up was in the first place. I know a guy who got busted for growing pot in his basement for his own consumption. I have no problems with this guy. Another guy cuaght his wife cheating on him and rear ended the car of the guy who she was cheating with. He gained control of himself and backed off. He eventually got divorced and left the two of them to their own devices. He still works with the other guy and is thankful the guy took his wife off his hands. He has primary custody of the children.

Another guy I had been friends with for ten years or so was convicted of repeatedly molesting his sister over a period of years. His father and brother were also so convicted. I will have NOTHING to do with him. If he ever showed up on my doorstep I would order him off my property. If he failed to comply immediately I would call the police to have him removed. The guy is a scum-bag with NO concept of human decency and morality, I have no pity for him, and no mercy either; I hope he learned about rape from the other side of the crime.

The other thing that this account shows is the inadequacy of most PC self-defense advice that women get. In the real world, kneeing a determined attacker in the groin may slow him down a touch, but it won't stop him and WILL anger him. So ladies and gentlemen, if someone attacks you physically, take this bit of advice: You have NO WAY OF KNOWING what your attacker's intentions are or at what point he or she will cease their attack. You cannot know if they are intent on merely roughing you up a bit, or of seriously injuring you, raping you or killing you. You must responsibly assume the worst are respond accordingly. Unless your physical strength and skills are such that you KNOW you can rapidly overmatch and incapacitate your attacker without serious risk to yourself, you MUST counterattack with the intent of debilitating your attacker quickly and efficiently, even if that means killing him or her or causing grave injuries that might lead to lifelong disability or eventual death. You cannot afford to be nice or proportional. If others hadn't been around to pull FUBAR off Popsicle she would probably have been overmatched by FUBAR eventually and possibly killed by his throttling hold. This is why it is important to think about self-defense and develop a defensive mindset that allows you to be very aggressive in your own defense. You can also teach yourself to see the defensive uses of the everyday objects around you, sticks, stones, pens, pencils, a sheaf of loose paper or newspapers,a trash can, a handful of leaves and forest duff, a pot of boiling water, a burning stove, a backpack, etc. can all be turned into weapons of distraction or injury, the only thing needed to do so is an aggressive attitude toward your own defense and the will to do what is needed to survive.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, "violence begets violence." But every "civilization" that decided it was above fighting for it's own defence has ceased to exist or has required others to fight and die in it's defence. Avoid a fight whenever and however you can, but when the fight comes to you, fight to win as quickly and efficiently as possible. There is no such thing as a fair fight.

FUBAR, as far as the information I have is concerned, is a good name for the guy.

prozac
06-19-2003, 18:44
As a recovering alcoholic (6 yrs sober) , I know that at times I was as big or bigger an ******* at times as FUBAR. Alcohol comsumption is no excuse!!! Anklebone is right about hitting bottom, but unfortunately statistics shw that 90% will die still drinking. Iwas a nce guy while sober but an ******* while drunk. If found quilty, he should get jail time I hope, but from experience I can tell you the criminal justice system had no impact on my drinking. It was only after eveybody who was near and dear to me got tired of my **** and and cut me off that I got the point. Fubar's friends and family need to sit him down and tell him his behavior is not acceptable. I hope you get the help you need and wish you luck FUBAR , but if not , do us all a favor and stay off the trail. P.S. I wish people would stop equating alcohol wth pot. The worst you have to worry about with a stoner is him trying to yogi your food. PROZAC

Jack Tarlin
06-23-2003, 11:26
A few quick comments:

Just like most of you, I wasn't there either, however I did arrive the next day and talked to 10 folks who were there, so I think I have a pretty good grasp on what occurred.

1. True, Fubar royally screwed up. And the fault is HIS, so let's stop blaming the victim for exacerbating the situation or making things worse. What happened was NOT her fault.

2. And while we're at it, let's stop blaming Joe Mitchell, who is a fine man and runs a great place. Does he need to perhaps run a tighter ship and re-think he policies regarding alcohol consumption, late-night partying, etc? Yes, and I'm sure he's done this already. But what this his fault? No, it isn't, so let's stop slamming him here. It wasn't his party.

3. And for heaven's sake, let's stop the ridiculous chest-thumping macho posturing about how different folks would have handled the situation. Moose, for all his Eastwoodesque histrionics, is completely full of it, both here, and in his lengthy register entry at 4 Pines, where he blamed everyone under the sun for the situation, pissing and moaning and bewailing the fact that nobody did anything to prevent this til it was too late. Well, here's the news....he didn't do anything either, either before it happened, or afterwards. It was other hikers who put themselves at risk tackling and restraing Fubar til the cops arrived. Mooses essentially did a lot of weepy handwringing, which later turned into (as it has done here) repeated prouncements of what he felt like doing, how lucky Fubar is that Moose didn't get his hands on him, and other ridiculous statements that sould like the idle threats of professional wrestling opponents. In point of fact, Moose did nothing to alleviate the situation, and his repeated finger-pointing and blame-throwing is wearing a little thin.

4. Geez, enough of this. One hiker got drunk and stupid, Wow, what earth-shattering news, like it's never happened before, right? True, this was an awful thing. But to beat it to death, especially when it's by folks who weren't there and haven't spoken to any of the witnesses, is getting silly. Yeah, a bad thing happened at 4 Pines. Joe Mitchell is concerned and I'm sure has taken steps to ensure it doesn't happen again. But let's not make more of this than it was.

TedB
06-23-2003, 23:33
I've seen lots of people get drunk and do something stupid. I've seen lots of people get drunk and become ********. Hey, I've even done it myself. But none of these stupid drunk ******** I had seen have ever attacked a woman.

Let's not sugar coat what FUBAR did.

MedicineMan
06-24-2003, 00:08
Actually the 'trail' is a National Scenic Park, if the alleged crime did take place close enough to the trail then it could be prosecuted at the federal level----the laws are different on federal ground and if he is found guilty and the judge wants to make an example out of him he could spend many moons studying round iron cylinders...also sounds like he's an alcoholic, hope his sheila wakes up and runs for her life now before she is a statistic... i would suggest FUBAR be dropped off in Afghanistan or Iraq for a year.

MadAussieInLondon
06-24-2003, 05:55
it was posted to the ATL i think, that fubar is bipolar.

Former Member
06-27-2003, 08:31
/

RagingHampster
06-27-2003, 09:51
I read the first few posts, and heres my opinion (based on the assumption that the story is true).

- He was disturbing the peace.
- He was littering.
- He assaulted someone.

I personally couldn't care less about what people do on the trail (smoke herb, drink, snort coke) so long as you do not disturb others. This guy seems like an *******, mainly due to his lack of consideration for anyone or anything, especially other hikers and the trail itself. Had I caught him on top of a woman choking her, I probably would have put him in the ICU ward at the nearest hospital. If it was me he had his hands around, my knife would have found a new home in his left lung. Thats not talking macho or manly, thats the crystalline truth.

By the way, I would have reported him to the authorities for littering, and called the police had the motel manager not kicked his ass out. There are too many good people on the trail to put up with someone like this *******. I have zero compassion for him, and hope he serves time from this assault. Anyone who doesn't have the balls or ovaries to stand up and protect the image of hikers in general isn't worth my time.

- Raging

regnma
07-02-2003, 21:48
I have reserved comment up until this time in order to protect my whereabouts until after Fubar’s trial. In the past few weeks, I have been both sincerely grateful for the outpouring of support and outraged at the “Bizarro world” (as Blue Jay aptly put it 6/17 17:54), suggestions that the incident was somehow minor, hearsay, blown out of proportion or my fault. Thank you Poison Ivy, Lone Wolf1, Happy, JoJo0425, Footnotes, IcemanAT95, TedB, Simva, Raging Hampster and anyone else I’ve missed who has expressed outrage at Fubar’s behavior.

First of all, Moose’s description of the evening was entirely accurate. To Easyhiker, (6/17 13:11) no, he did not witness the attack, only heard it, but asked me to read his journal before it was posted to make sure he did not misrepresent the events. Of course, he was upset that his hiking partner had to go home. He was traumatized by the evening, just as every other sane person there was.

Also to Easyhiker (6/17 13:11), Fubar’s crime is not “simple assault”. He was actually convicted of assault and battery and drunk and disorderly conduct. I wonder if you would think it was so “simple” if some drunken animal’s hands were around the throat of your mother, sister, wife, daughter or girlfriend. One of the arresting officers at the scene told me I was lucky to get away from him because he was so out of control. I feel fortunate to have the physical strength to defend myself. Someone of lesser stature could have been seriously hurt.

Moose was entitled to post what he did and entirely correct to let the world know about it. Fubar did the “damage to the trail”, not Moose. (Easyhiker 6/17 18:18) Let’s not blame the victim again. Other hikers need to know about what happens on the trail so they can assess their own safety issues, especially women as Ankle Bone pointed out (6/17 18:43). I filed an incident report with the ATC in Harpers Ferry. It is my hope that it can have some influence to encourage hostel owners to prohibit alcohol, which may go a long way to provide a safer and more pleasant experience for actual hikers. No, Baltimore Jack, Moose is not “full of it” and it isn’t “silly” to discuss the events and the ramifications for the hiking community. (6/19 23:44) The story needed to be told and he did a fine job.

Ok, since I brought up alcohol, I’ll address that too. I don’t give a damn if a person is drunk or high or bipolar or mentally impaired, etc, etc, etc. There is NO excuse for this type of violence...anywhere...ever. Every person is responsible for his or her own behavior and it sickens me when I hear such rationalizations.

Yes, Cpt Chaos, it would be nice if Fubar could realize he has to set limits (6/17 20:32), but here in the real world that’s not going to happen. He has an extremely violent history dating back 10 years. If he were going to change his behavior, you’d think he might have caught on by now that he has a problem.

Let’s examine blame. Yes, Dances with Mice, “If you see a snake in the grass, then walk around it and don’t poke it” (6/16 23:07). Happy says it was not wise to “throw fuel on the fire” (6/18 13:39). I’ve also read that you shouldn’t “tease a rabid dog”. When I come across something that appears to be a member of the human species, I expect civilized behavior and not a vicious bite or burn. I didn’t know Fubar and had no way of knowing he is a snake/rabid dog/bonfire. If you walk around your whole life assuming everyone you speak to is going to rip your head off, you’d be afraid to utter a syllable. I will not live that way nor will I accept fault or blame for the attack. Whether I said nothing at all or ranted and raved like a lunatic, as Fubar was doing, has no bearing. The last time I read the constitution, it still guaranteed me the right to express an opinion without being physically attacked. Placing the blame on me is equivalent to blaming a woman for rape because her dress is too seductive, or blaming a homeowner for robbery because the property wasn’t secure enough.

My opinion is that Fubar is a violent criminal and the judge agreed with me. For his assault and battery conviction, he received 60 days in jail. He had already served 20 because neither his wife nor his parents came to Roanoke to post bail. He will be eligible for release in 30 days after posting bond. Of course, it is my hope that he serves the entire sentence. For his drunk and disorderly conviction, he has been fined $50. He has expressed remorse “if” the events occurred as I testified. He claims to have absolutely no recollection of the evening. The judge made him apologize to me in the courtroom.

I’m angry and this posting probably reveals that. It’s a natural emotion for the victim of a crime and I’m sure I’ll get over it. However, I’m not just angry about the attack on my person. I’m really angry because Fubar’s criminal acts adversely effect hundreds of people he will never meet and have the opportunity to apologize to. My family and friends were horrified after I assured them that spending the summer thru hiking was a safe endeavor. The trail community as a whole will have to pause and ponder if the same thing could happen to them. JoJo0425 got it right (6/17 15:34). “Of all the things to be afraid of on the trail...it is a shame that now we have to be truly concerned of other hikers.” This is indeed a sad story.

Many of the thru hikers I’ve read about express a renewed faith in mankind after experiencing kindness from trail angels along the way. I’m not completely jaded by my experience to the point where I have forgotten such kindness. To those who supported and helped me along the way, I send a big mahalo for your kokua. I’ve traveled the world enough to know that there are both good people and a$$holes everywhere you go. Unfortunately, I seem to have found myself in the company of the latter at Four Pines that evening.

Popsicle

Blue Jay
07-03-2003, 07:37
Popsicle, if it is any consolation, next year (or any year) my girlfriend and I would be honored if we could escort you for the remaining sections that you missed. We are both formidable and you can be assured no one would bother you in any way. Your attitude is inspirational.

TedB
07-03-2003, 10:54
Popsicle, thank you for your calm headed and detailed explanation of the events that took place. And good job working with the legal system to bring this criminal to justice. I hope that over time, the positive aspects of the trail come to have more meaning for you than the trouble you went through. As Blue Jay said your attitude is inspirational.

Footnotes
07-03-2003, 17:07
Thanks for following this through to the end. I know it must have been very inconvenient for you to return to the trial. I think you have done the trail a big service.

Thank you for the update also. It said everything that needed saying. I must admit that hikers whose past opinions and posts I very much respected surprised me with their comments on this incident. I hope that you are able to deal with it in a way that will allow you to return to the trail if you so desire. Good Luck.
Footnotes

jensine
07-04-2003, 12:38
This is a very sad situation for the victims. I can't help but add that for 18 years as the owners of Rainbow Springs Campground we were labeled as narcs, etc., etc., and alot of hikers were told not to stay with us because we had the "no alcohol, no drugs"
policy. It's a shame that more hostel owners don't take this stance, before it gets this far. Perhaps in the future more hikers will say good things about businesses that enforce a no alcohol, no drug policy. No, we are not prudes, and yes we do have a beer or cocktail. But we did find that alcohol and hiking just didn't mix.

Chappy
07-09-2003, 00:22
Well Easy Hiker...you've heard from the victim. Whatcha got to say now?

jojo0425
07-09-2003, 09:50
Popsicle,

Thank you for your eloquent response. I hope you regroup and get back out on the trail soon.

Iceman,

Yes, the A.T. provides an escape from the "real" world. I go out, to get away from clients, pressures and stress. I also go out because I love nature. The A.T. was concieved as an escape for the working man, that is its purpose. But as you said, this does not mean we forget that we are humans and that there are laws.

Easyhiker,

I can't help but comment on something you wrote about if Popsicle has stayed quiet like the other woman, she would not have been attacked.

So, women have to remain silent or be hit, now is it? Come on, give me a break. Which century do you hail from?

In 9 days, I'll be on and around the Trail for a week. I was so looking forward to my trip, still am, but am a little more weary. Now I have lions, tigers, bears and drunken b--tards to watch out for. (or at least ticks, biting flies, mice and drunken b--tards)

Last summer I took my first steps on the A.T. I hiked with two other female friends and we met so many nice, great, wonderful people on the trail. It was a memorable hike. I hope to have the same experince this summer. I hope that this forum reminds us all how important it is to respect one another and to watch out for each other. Make sure your hiking buddy is safe, make sure he/she is respectful, be respectful yourself, enjoy the company of others and make it a goal to leave 1. a positive attitude and 2. only your footprints.

Happy Hiking to all

Tramper Al
07-11-2003, 15:39
Popsicle, you rock.
You have made the trail a better place for all.

Lugnut
07-16-2003, 00:56
Wow! Coherent sentences. There really is someone home. :banana
The northwoods sound like "home" to you. Have fun. Check in.

meBrad
07-16-2003, 08:54
I have come to understand that my participation in this forum is counter productive. In an attempt to ammend this I am deleting my posts and have requested to have my account deleted

smokymtnsteve
07-16-2003, 14:20
"I wished I LOVED human race...I wished I loved it's UGLY FACE"

Edward Abbey......


and looks like we have seen the worse ugly Face....

hang in there popsicle...


easy hiker ....you need to be in a mental hospital not work in one...you have to be able to help yourself before you can help others.

peace

smokymtnsteve

Former Member
07-16-2003, 22:13
/

Blue Jay
07-17-2003, 07:46
I, for one and many many more would agree 100% with Smokymtnsteve. "Easy" go back and read some of your drunken, racist, misogynistic, truly hate filled posts. If you do so sober even you will agree with us. I'm serious, check yourself in or stay in the woods far away from humans, please.

meBrad
07-17-2003, 09:00
I have come to understand that my participation in this forum is counter productive. In an attempt to ammend this I am deleting my posts and have requested to have my account deleted

Lone Wolf
07-17-2003, 09:13
Yeah Brad, you're a newbie. Stay out of this one. Most of the **** that was spewed has been deleted. I CAN give examples of Easy's behavior cuz I witnessed it, but I won't. Don't get too deep with the intellectual bs.

meBrad
07-17-2003, 09:18
I have come to understand that my participation in this forum is counter productive. In an attempt to ammend this I am deleting my posts and have requested to have my account deleted

Blue Jay
07-17-2003, 15:00
Your posts are BS for two reasons. One, you clearly stated that you have only read his posts from this thread, therefore you do not have a clue as to what you are talking about. Two, you use 50 words where 3 would convey the same insipid information. Is that specific enough for you.

meBrad
07-17-2003, 15:11
I have come to understand that my participation in this forum is counter productive. In an attempt to ammend this I am deleting my posts and have requested to have my account deleted

Former Member
07-17-2003, 15:52
/

Lugnut
07-17-2003, 20:57
Wow! This whole thread got completly out of control. I think it's Fubar's fault. :-?
meBrad. Most of us here don't think all those the negative adjectives apply to Easy. You will find though there is general agreement that he is nuts! :D Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Footnotes
07-19-2003, 17:01
Brad
You are making a big newbie mistake. Riding your white horse into something you know nothing about and having a closed mind to those who want to fill the gaps in your knowledge. My own opinion is that no one on this site is interested in debating for the sake of debating. The site is about conveying information. You should learn from the description of the one you have chose to do battle for. If you are anything other than a WASP he will quickly offend you. If you are a WASP he will quickly offend you also.

You sound like an intelligent person. If you have knowledge of hiking I would like to hear about it when the opportunity presents itself. If you have questions about hiking, then ask them. We do not have a lot of patience for the type of person you are defending.

Footnotes

dionalaniz
07-20-2003, 03:44
Wow. This is really weird. I've been planning my impending Jan1 thru-hike expecting that I will get away from my normal world and enter serene, contemplative nature. I love training to fight in my day to day life (BJJ, wrestling, muay thai), but as much as I love it i'm looking forward to 8 months (AT+IAT) of nothing but hiking and thinking.

It's a real downer to read this post, hear the horrible incident that happened, and actually read some AT hikers quasi-defending the guy who did it.

Fighters fighting other fighters and achieving "higher consciousness through harder contact" is cool. Jerk-offs beating up on weaker people who have no interest in fighting is intolerable, revolting.

Fubar is VERY lucky he didn't attack this woman with a trained fighter around. Any trained, serious, disciplined fighter would have been duty bound to seriously punish Fubar for his breach of the rule: only fight another willing fighter.

Popsicle - i wanted to spout off on Fubar a bit more, but your mature and measured response really set the bar and brought me back into orbit. I admire your ability to stay as cool headed as you have shown yourself to be in this post. It really *is* inspirational.

wacocelt
07-20-2003, 18:46
Hello folks, this is FUBAR. I'de like to apologize to Popcycle and to you all for this incident. I deeply regret losing control and what occured, as I told her at the trial, if I had been in possession of my senses at the time it would never have happened. I made a mistake in a drunken stupor, have and will continue to pay for it. A great many exaggerations have been made as to my actions on the trail that night and previous to the incident, but that's to be expected as the rumor mill snowballs. I no longer drink and will be seeking more indepth treatment for my Bi Polar disorder.
I'de like to thank you all for the emotion and energy you've put into this thread. I'm very happy to see the community rally and support someone who needs it. Happy hiking to you all. Be Well.

dionalaniz
07-20-2003, 19:12
Well, you sort of took your lumps like a man. Right up until you started blaming it on your drunkenness and saying everything was exagerated. If you'd just say "I completely f'd up, there are *NO* excuses for my behaviour, and no one is to blame for the incident but me, and i'm now trying to improve myself" you'd probably receive more sympathy.

What I'm seeing is a guy who is sad at being ostracized by a community he wants to participate in, not a guy who is genuinely sorry for and remorseful about his actions.

mongo
07-20-2003, 20:17
Some people just can't handle their booze. It happens in "normal" life and it happens on the trail. FUBAR has done the crime and now it is time to do the time. And I guess assualt on a female, resisting arrest, assualt on a cop and priors and the American justice system will mean that he will be thrown so far into jail that they will have to pump air into him.

Personally I enjoyed having a beer on the trail and letting things loosen up.... however like in real life I never got out of control and I knew that suddenly I needed to go to sleep by 8pm.

I personally had a similar experince early in my hike where a lovely peice of trail magic was done by lovely hobo's. Beer, steaks and great company in a mountain road. What a great way to spend a night and be blown away by the amazing size of the hearts of people I had met on the trail. However one guy was drunk and making the whole evening horrible for people. He was eve taking swings at people. Due to the fact that I was 260 pound ex-army rugby player from New Zealand I was asked by concerned parties to "escort" him back to tent.

I hadn't come around the world to have to put "the smash" on a drunk guy.....I could do that for free at home:)

Still I "escorted" him to his tent and left him in no doubt that if he got out of it before dawn he would be completing the rest of the trail with a broken jaw. I felt ****ty as I was loving my time but realised that like normal life there comes a time when some people just don't want to listen and makes things horrible for everybody else.

He did get up before dawn....but since we where all camped on the side of the hill listening to him fall 30-35 meters down the side of the hill smashing into trees and bushes in his drunken state was more punishment than I could ever deal out. I went down and got him brought him back. He then proceeded to go to the tiolet......in the opening of his own tent. Hey I was laughing so hard that I couldn't stop him. He went to sleep and everybody moved on the next morning.

If any of the Hobo's are reading this I thank for being so wonderful to a passing kiwi hiker. You guys are the best and I think you are a credit to your country.

Mongo

wacocelt
07-22-2003, 02:02
Well, you sort of took your lumps like a man. Right up until you started blaming it on your drunkenness and saying everything was exagerated.

I was blacked out drunk, if I hadn't been... it would not have happened. I am remedying this by not drinking anymore. Yes I take responsibility for my actions that night, I have never claimed otherwise.
I do however resent people slandering me about previous incidents which are wholey false and malicious. The incident is mine to accept and deal with, however, I refuse to sit idley by and let people who have petty grudges against me try to portray me as worse than I already seem. I made a mistake, paid the price, and am now in the process of moving on with my life and my marriage. Despite my past, my drunkeness, Bi Polar disorder and this incident, I am not a bad person, as many of the people I met and hiked with this year will gladly tell you.
Popcycle I do honestly and sincerely apologize for that evening and wish you the best in life. You are in my prayers.

meBrad
07-22-2003, 09:45
I have come to understand that my participation in this forum is counter productive. In an attempt to ammend this I am deleting my posts and have requested to have my account deleted

Footnotes
07-22-2003, 11:06
Wacocelt/FUBAR

It has always amazed me that when someone screws up and isn't contrite we pound them for lack of remorse. Conversely, when someone owns their screw-up and apologizes we tend to find something else to pound them for. FUBAR has apologized to Popcicle and the AT community. Until he gives us reasons to feel otherwise, then I think forgiveness is in order.

FUBAR, the advise MeBrad offers is good advise. You will never please everyone. You need to be able to say to yourself "if they don't like me the way I am then I probably wouldn't enjoy knowing then anyway". This presumes you are making an honest effort to get your life together and you are not acting like a pimple on the a** of society. Other than that, I need to suggest a trail name change. The workds "Waco" and "FUBAR" probably are not projecting the kind of image you want. Just my 2 cents worth.

Chappy
07-22-2003, 23:51
Wacocelt/FUBAR
We've all done things we're not proud of. Forgive yourself and move on. I pray you have a lifetime of sobriety.

Coosa
07-28-2003, 23:40
Popsicle, please email me at [email protected]. Thanks, Coosa

Lilred
08-01-2003, 11:30
I am female and intending to start my section hikes of the AT next year. I will be hiking alone for the most part (no partner) and am thankful for posts like this one. In all the readings of journals and posts on forums, this is the first incident I've read about concerning this kind of violence on the trail. I have no intention of letting this change my mind or plans in the least. I believe this is an isolated incident and probably happens as often as people getting eaten by bears.
Popsicle, I commend you for being responsible and courageous in taking this person to court. As a fellow female, thank you.
Hope to catch up with some of you on the trail.

Mary

gravityman
08-01-2003, 11:50
I agree that I have never heard of, nor experience anything like this while on trail. A lot of women solo hike. I hike with my wife. I'm glad that some people don't feel the need to carry a gun to kill bears and drunken bastards.

PHEW! I feel safer already!

Gravity Man

Coosa
08-02-2003, 18:11
Lilredmg (not a "b" I guess, I really miss mine), please email me at [email protected] -- I too am female and might have some information you'd be interested in, especially since you're a woman.

Coosa
(see http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/news/stories/20030731/getout/560679.html
for a quote or two from me)

Red Hat
08-04-2003, 11:00
The rumor on the trail was that the four pines hostel was closed after this event. I was there on June 18th, which was afterwards. Does anyone know if it was closed later or if that was just a rumor? The owner had poor judgment and I'm sure will not allow drinking now, but it would be a shame to close the hostel IMO.

A-Train
08-04-2003, 18:17
hes a dirty old man. Hes got a naked calendar in his hostel which i think is in bad taste especially with the big number of female hikers this year.
I hiked with Dimples until the Catawba area and she had sent a maildrop to 4 pines. Joe Mitchell signed her guestbook like three times letting her know it was there and that he was waiting for her to get there. He was asking lots of hikers if they knew when she was arriving. That dude is like 60 or something and shes 25. Hes a pretty shady guy. Someone also told me he said it was his policy to "have a beer with every hiker" and there were about 20 there that night.

Lone Wolf
08-04-2003, 18:48
I talked to a hiker today who stayed there last night. They're still open. Never closed.

Dirtyoldman
08-07-2003, 10:00
watch it there A-train.....

Red Hat
08-07-2003, 12:13
Actually, he is fortysomething, a young whippersnapper, I thought. He was a complete gentleman when I was there. (of course, I don't look like dimples:>) I didn't notice the naked calendar, but I was pretty tired after climbing Dragon's Tooth in the storms. anyway, I think it is a nice hostel as long as there is no more drinking. He was probably just concerned that dimples got her package, don't take things out of context...

Mountain Dew
04-15-2004, 07:39
First of all I want to say that I WAS THERE when all this happened. There are several topics I want to address here and can no longer bite my tongue on this old if not dead issue.

First off.... I met Fubar on day two of my thru-hike because he had heard that Mountain Poohbear (my girlfriend) was having bad knee pains and couldn't make it to the next shelter. Fubar was already at this shelter that we had planned on going to that night, but upon hearing about us Fubar and Radio Shack walked two miles backwards down the trail to carry her pack for her the remaining two miles to the trail. I say again, this was the first time i had ever met the man. Many times along the A.T. did I see Fubar help out fellow hikers and on several occasions he gave his can stove away to others. The day before this terrible thing happened at 4 Pines he gave his latest stove away to two female hikers who had purchased bad fuel in the previous town. I had let them use my can stove and fuel the night before Fubar met them as well as gave them half of my fuel after Fubar gave them his stove. Keep in mind that these two women were NOT friends of ours. I am in noway trying to paint Fubar as an angel but, he's no devil either. Bipolar disorder and drinking mixed with the stupid decision to throw the two together spells trouble. Simple as that ! He was wrong and admitted it.

Second.......Our group that Moose refers to as the "rat pack" has never and did never refer to ourselves under that name. We often called ourselves "Dryland" or the "Mairnttt... Boys". That was just the beginning of Mooses fiction account of what happened. If we were so loud at the motel several days before and "so" many people had complained to the manager why did she never say a word to us. In fact she told us to have a good day as we left. As for the claim that we left beer cans laying around everywhere... Many of the hikers in our group including me and Carrot Slayer would often carry a zip lock bag to pack out trash from the trail that we would find. How many times did you do this Moose ? In fact I challenge you, Moose, to find anybody else on the trail that had a bad experience with us anywhere on the trail. You also mentioned that we "ENCOURAGED" Fubar's behavior. Please tell me in what way we did this ? I'll have you know that it was Fubar's friends that held him down as you ran down the hill frightened for your life. You said that you were "trying to get sombody to tell you what had happened".... BS. I came around the corner of the garage as you were exiting your tent Moose. You made the best choice by running down the hill to check on Popsicle. You mention that the next morning Fubar's friends told you how terrible he was as well. BS once again. That never happened, but if you insist on sticking by your story maybe you could give the names of the hikers that said this to you ? Moose.......I think you are right to be mad at Fubar as we all were. You fail to mention that you were falling all over yourself to be with Popsicle, who was engaged when she was on the A.T. It looked like puppy love to me. The day that you two got to 4 Pines I had stopped at a bridge to get water when you two walked up. We all said hi to each other and talked for a moment when Popsicle said that she was going to go "find a restroom" and for you to go on. You insisted on staying put. It struck me as odd that she had a fiance and you had been taggin along with her for a huge section of the A.T. when you had told me that you started with a group of friends. Why would a guy leave his friends to hike with an engaged woman ? The thoughts left my thinking process at that time because I was having trouble with my pump.

Third... Footnotes, you wouldn't have put Fubar OR any of his friends in the hospital that night I can assure you of that. Making personal threats to Fubar's friends, such as myself, when you were NOT there is very ignorant. I would have appreciated your help in restraining Fubar for 30 minutes on the wet grass like Bohdi and Greenman did untill the police got there though. Atrain..... There were no nude calenders at 4 Pines when I was there and that is the first I've heard of it. I'm guessing that , if true, that would have been talked about by many people on many different A.T. website such as this one.

Too many people run at the mouth without knowing of what they speak. Some, like Moose, were there and still can not get it straight or be 100% honest. Moose, your chest beating of what you "would have done" is an attempt to gain favor with an engaged woman. Shame on you. I don't doubt that you had concern for her as we all did. I prayed for Popsicles safety that night it happened and continued to for weeks afterward. It's a shame this whole thing happened....

Frosty
04-15-2004, 08:00
Too many people run at the mouth
Have to agree with you there.

Moose2001
04-15-2004, 08:49
Mountain Dew, I’m sorry to see this thread come up again after all this time. I’m amazed at the half-truths and innuendo that fills your comments. I posted a factual account of what happened that night at Four Pines in my journal. I never asked anyone to post that account here or anywhere else. In fact, I would of preferred if it had not gotten posted outside of the context that I meant it to be used in.

As far as your statements about what happened that night, I’m not going to get into a flame war with you over what transpired. I can see you have obviously justified both your actions and others by altering the truth to fit your position. You’re entitled to you opinions, even if they are ill-informed.

The one part of your post that does really anger me though is your pathetic attempt to demean both Popsicle and I with some innuendo about our relationship. As in the rest of your post, you’ve got your facts wrong. Popsicle was not engaged, she’s married. As am I. We have been friends and hiked together since we first met in 2001. Both Popsicle’s husband and my wife were perfectly fine with us hiking together. You see they knew what the facts were, that we were good friends and hiking partners. You, on the other hand, are one of those narrow minded little perverts that seem to think a man and a woman spending time together can only mean one thing.

Finally, the best thing about Whiteblaze is it’s a forum for advice and helping others get ready to hike the AT. I’ve not responded to this post before because, frankly, I don’t think it even belongs here. I won’t respond to it again, unless you again fill it with lies and innuendo. I suggest you do what both Popsicle and I have done, move on with your life.

gravityman
04-15-2004, 11:05
Too many people run at the mouth without knowing of what they speak. Some, like Moose, were there and still can not get it straight or be 100% honest. Moose, your chest beating of what you "would have done" is an attempt to gain favor with an engaged woman. Shame on you. I don't doubt that you had concern for her as we all did. I prayed for Popsicles safety that night it happened and continued to for weeks afterward. It's a shame this whole thing happened....

Mountain Dew - Too bad you had to bring up this very dead thread. And you clearly have wrong info in your post that basicly makes me discount the rest of your post.

This is sad. We are a hiking family. Too bad people don't get the connect that hikers can have. Doesn't seem Mountain Dew does...

Gravity Man

gravityman
04-15-2004, 11:06
Too many people run at the mouth without knowing of what they speak. Some, like Moose, were there and still can not get it straight or be 100% honest. Moose, your chest beating of what you "would have done" is an attempt to gain favor with an engaged woman. Shame on you. I don't doubt that you had concern for her as we all did. I prayed for Popsicles safety that night it happened and continued to for weeks afterward. It's a shame this whole thing happened....

Mountain Dew - Too bad you had to bring up this very dead thread. And you clearly have wrong info in your post that basicly makes me discount the rest of your post.

This is sad. We are a hiking family. Too bad people don't get the connection that hikers can have (male and/or female). Doesn't seem Mountain Dew does...

Gravity Man

Mountain Dew
04-15-2004, 19:24
Gravityman, is it ever too late to come out with the whole truth ? You state that I have wrong information on this topic, yet I saw more of what happened than anybody that was there. Maybe you could go into detail with times, dates, and hikers names to let me know EXACTLY what I am wrong about. I'll be waiting for this information. Correct me if I'm wrong , but you weren't there nor were you anywhere in that area when it happened.
Are you claiming that I didn't hold Fubar down for 30 minutes and then assist the officers as well ? If so I can give you the e-mail address of about 15 hikers that will disagree with you.

Like I said before.....unless you were there why claim to know the exact facts of what happened unless you have other motives or you make it a habit of speaking out of ignorance...

A-Train
04-15-2004, 20:36
MD,

What are you trying to accomplish here? Do you want us all to give you a round of applause and a pat on the back because you were there that night and saw all of it?

Since you and Moose were both there, you're both credible witnesses, but in fact Moose didn't get wasted or do anything illegal. Fubar's group can't exactly say the same thing based on their condition, correct me if i'm wrong.

Seems as if what you accused others of, by getting facts wrong, is exactly what you've just proven to have done, based on the follow up info Moose has given. I can side with him on the issue as I was often accused of hiking with a female partner for all the wrong reasons. Is it so inconcievable that two people of the opposite sex can get along without sex?

Small details about what i saw or didn't have nothing to do with anything, but i'd appreciate you not calling me a liar, i have no reason to make things up. And lets face it, im more of a credible poster here than yourself, so keep that in mind.

Lets put this to bad, no one really cares anymore

Mountain Dew
04-15-2004, 21:47
The most important point I want to make here is that I am NOT addressing Popsicle. She was the innocent victim in all of this I am sure that we can all agree that things could have turned out much worse. Thank God they didn't. Mooses, your attempt to bring her into this is weak and a desparate move to try and backup his false claims. If you claim that I spoke "half-truths and innuendos" then why didn't you go into great detail with facts that can be backed up with others story's to prove me wrong ? If you so strongly oppose your comments being posted in here it sure took you a very very long time to say so. Might your reason for this opposition all of a sudden be because somebody has spoken up and told the WHOLE truth about what happened ? Moose ---" I can see that you have obviously justified both your actions and others" .... Moose, what actions are you talking about ? The ACTION of keeping Fubar from finding Popsicle after she ran ? The ACTION of holding him down with Greenman and Bohdi for 30 minutes in the cold on wet grass ? The ACTION of helping the officers with him when they arrived. I don't feel the need to justify these action Moose. It was the right thing to do at the time. Are you saying these actions were wrong to do ? You claim that I demeaned Popsicle so why don't you go ahead and quote what I said that was demeaning. I, in fact, agreed with her filing charges and really can't think of one thing that she did wrong. The fact that she is married , when I thought she was engaged isn't relavent. Chasing after a woman with puppy love looks and actions isn't any different either way married or engaged. I NEVER stated that there was something between you two either. I said that YOU were falling all over yourself to be on her heels basically. The next time you try to do some chest beating to look like braveheart make sure nobody is around to tell the truth later. I'm sure you will have other hikers names and email addresses soon to back up what you claimed happened at 4 Pines. lol......

Skeemer
04-15-2004, 21:58
If I remember correctly...Popsickle, the victim here, pretty much verified Moose's credibility regarding his remarks.

I agree with Moose, Gravityman and A-Train in questioning Mtn Dew's motive here. Why the hell go after the guy Popsickle said was telling it like it was. Moose played it straight and now the "other side" decides to attack. Like he explained, he wasn't looking for a Whiteblaze confrontation. All he did was write about what he observed in his journal.

It is too bad MD you had to go n try make something out of their hiking partnership that wasn't there.

It would have been better left alone.

No smiley faces on this one.

Mountain Dew
04-15-2004, 22:50
Skeemer....

Popsicle verified Mooses story about Fubar attacking her were 100% accurately. That much is true. Now Mooses fiction account of the rest of the story was and still is very slanted and that is my entire point here. You call me "the other side" yet I helped restrain Fubar and agree with Popsicle being the 100% innocent victim here. You think that is "the other side" ? Give that a rest.


A-Train....

You asked..." what are you trying to accomplish here "? I'm simply putting the whole truth out there for everybody to see. This website gives us a chance to express our opinions and I'm sorry if you think i'm not entitled to one. An opinion, I might add, that is backed up by numerous other hikers that were there unlike yourself. I don't need an "applause or a pat on the back for being there"....simply ackowledge that you weren't and thus have no room to try to tell *facts of the events. Truth be known... I wish I hadn't been there in a way, but am glad that there were several hikers besides myself that were there. You asked me to correct you if you were wrong about "Fubar's group" being wasted...well, you are wrong about that. I don't drink and several other hikers in our group weren't drinking that night either. On your other words.....NO, A-train it isn't odd or perverted for a male and female hiker to hike together at all. I see nothing wrong with it and know that male/female hikers can be just friends and hike. I have never said nor emplied that something was going on between them. I've said that three times so far i think, but maybe you didn't understand that previously.

A-train..."Small details about what i saw or didn't have nothing to do with anything, but i'd appreciate you not calling me a liar, i have no reason to make things up. And lets face it, im more of a credible poster here than yourself, so keep that in mind. Lets put this to bad, no one really cares anymore"
__________________
Details about what you didn't see , yet comment on, make no difference ? Pretty funny ! If you really saw a nude poster on the walls at 4 Pines then obviously others did as well. Please inform this whole website of their names unless in fact you are making it up. A person is only as credible as the facts that back up what they claim. If you trully don't care and want to put it to bed then I'm sure that you won't be posting here again, but something tells me otherwise. You need to stick to the facts. Facts being things you can prove. Comprehend ?

A-Train
04-15-2004, 23:38
Alright, Mountain Dew, I've taken your bait once again, but don't expect to be hearing too much more from me. A week ago I posted saying I was here to help people with Trail info, not to get into stupid scuffles like this one. But I do need to clear up a few things you obviously can't seem to comprehend.

The calendar he had in his hostel garage, is not a lie, I saw it with my own eyes. This is not a big deal, and I don't need to go get 15 other hikers email addresses to confirm this, this isn't a court case. Is it possilbe that maybe he took it down between when I was there (April 24) and when you were (June 9th)? Is it possible that you somehow might not have seen it? Once again this is a minor detail that has nothing to do with FUBAR and POPsickle, but I'd appreciate not being called a liar. I know what I saw, period.

I never tried to pretend as if I was there. I never denied you weren't there. I'm glad you restrained Fubar and I'm aware you weren't drinking. Is that all clear?? As stated before, Moose's account came from his journal entry, so it wasn't edited or censured to look a certain way on this site. He simply told it like he saw it. I can't comment on his facts, but it is unlike Moose to lie, especially regarding the attack on his hiking partner. I'm not gonna speak for Moose, but is it possible that he was angry and got caught in the heat of the moment when making the threats and "I would have" comments? I'd say so. Once again, I wasn't there, but it sounds like he acting in a responsible way, rather than fighting to make the problem even worse.

That is all from me here. I've spoken. I seriously hope we can put this all to rest and forget it. Popsickle finished the AT and she has obviously moved on, so why can't other people? Comprehend Dew?

Mountain Dew
04-16-2004, 00:28
A-train....

You are exactly right about the calender. Maybe it WAS there and was taken down. I'm 100% sure that it wasn't there when I was though. If it was there I agree that a hostel isn't a place for a nude calender and that shouldn't happen. I guess we can agree on this one point.
I never said that Moose lied about the attack on Popsicle either. Once again i do believe that part of this problem is that he was caught up in the heat of the "moment" while making his comments/ writting his journal. Agreed, he acted in the proper manner that night A-train. If he had decided to fight it would have made matters worse.

A-train ...."Popsickle finished the AT and she has obviously moved on, so why can't other people? Comprehend Dew?"

It's not about moving on etc. My whole point was to set the record straight by telling the entire truth. Having you name slammed like Moose did when he commented on our group like he did deserved a reply. The next time somebody talks about you I hope you do as you want me to do and move on without ever commenting on the issue. Comprehend ?

Frosty
04-16-2004, 07:25
My whole point was to set the record straight by telling the entire truth.
I was not there and have no idea what happened. However, I have been drunk on a number of occaisions, and I have to say that the memory of someone who has been drinking is not the best record in the world. So, if I were looking for the entire truth, I doubt I'd be asking someone who was pounding them down at the time.

MD, I'm not sure what you are accomplishing here. You certainly haven't changed anyone's mind, and are unlikely to, given your approach. I am getting a much more unpleasant understanding of your group and its attitudes by reading your posts than anything posted by anyone else. If you want to help public perception of you and FUBAR, the best thing you can do is stop posting. Trust me as someone who has no axe to grind here: you are making yourself look worse with each post.

Tom

chomp
04-16-2004, 09:42
It's not about moving on etc. My whole point was to set the record straight by telling the entire truth. Having you name slammed like Moose did when he commented on our group like he did deserved a reply. The next time somebody talks about you I hope you do as you want me to do and move on without ever commenting on the issue. Comprehend ?
This whole incident reminds me of a lesson that I leaned in grade school - choose your friends well. If you hang around with people who cause trouble, then you are going to be grouped and blamed with those people, even if you yourself have done nothing wrong.

Sure, its not particularly fair or right, but it is almost a universal truth of human nature. Who you choose to hang out with does say something about yourself as well. So even if you were not drinking, even if you had nothing to do with the assult, even if you helped to stop the situtation once it started... you were still linked to FUBAR when this happened.

And for that, you will be judged, right or wrong. If you wanted to set the record straight, you should have done just that. Instead of just stating the facts, you have made several aggressive posts on this site. You have accused Moose of having certain thoughts. Not only is this completly off-topic, but how do you know what Moose was thinking? You chastise people for commenting on the incident but did not witness it. Were you somehow able to get inside Moose's head? How exactly were you able to decern what he was thinking?

So for better or for worse, you and your group will always be linked to this incident. No matter how much you post or how many facts you list or how many witnesses you gather, a member of your group attacked a woman. And the rest of you will be associated with that attack, right or wrong. It is human nature, pure and simple. And the more aggressivly that you post about it, the more you will confirm the suspicions of people about the mentality of your group.

Hopefully, something is learned from all of this. Obviously, choose who you are going to associate yourself with very carefully. This is a general truth in life, not just the trail. I have known many MANY "good" people who are self-destructive. But unless they have funnly accepted that they are self-destructive and have a problem with whatever their personal demon happens to be, the best course of action is to get out of the way. Sad but true.

wacocelt
04-16-2004, 11:39
Hello folks, Fubar here.

First of all I'de like to say that I understand Mt Dew's posting here, as I would have defended a friend who I thought was being ill-portrayed as well. I appreciate the friendship, effort and intent no matter how much trouble this post will stir.

The incident, no matter how horrid and regretable, happened and is over. It was a major turning point in my life, as well as my wifes. I have made my apologies and have made peace with myself as best I can about the situation, I pray that everyone else is on thier way to doing the same.

Since the incident my wife and I have been sober and I am recieving treatment for my BiPolar Disorder. Tripp and I are very happily married and deeply in love. We have been discussing the idea of returning to the Trail in the furture so that I can complete my Thru Hike finally, as well as the idea of going to Trail Days to celebrate our one year wedding anniversary and to see our friendsfrom last year. I have recieved a little over a dozen emails from hikers from last year, some who I only met once or twice, asking that I not let the incident keep me away from the trail and my friends. Tripp and I however have our doubts and concerns, I in the feelings of guilt and that I will be unwanted and unwelcome, she in the fear that someone will make a physical threat to her or myself.

The whole incident is my fault and as much as I would like to I can't change what happened, I can only continue to learn from and follow the path that it has sent me upon and make sure nothing like it ever happens again. I hope that this post will end this discussion, as I believe we all agree it's not a very pleasant thing to think about at the beginning of this new hiking season.

I wish you and yours the best in life. God bless, Be well.

Fubar



:: Mt. Dew, Tripp wants me to thank you and tell you that she loves and misses you bro, good luck!::

Lone Wolf
04-16-2004, 11:47
Glad to hear things are going well for y'all. Go back and finish your hike. See ya at T Daze.

gravityman
04-16-2004, 11:50
Gravityman, is it ever too late to come out with the whole truth ? You state that I have wrong information on this topic, yet I saw more of what happened than anybody that was there. Maybe you could go into detail with times, dates, and hikers names to let me know EXACTLY what I am wrong about. I'll be waiting for this information. Correct me if I'm wrong , but you weren't there nor were you anywhere in that area when it happened.
Are you claiming that I didn't hold Fubar down for 30 minutes and then assist the officers as well ? If so I can give you the e-mail address of about 15 hikers that will disagree with you.

Like I said before.....unless you were there why claim to know the exact facts of what happened unless you have other motives or you make it a habit of speaking out of ignorance...

Mountain Dew - you like to pick fights, eh?

You were wrong about the status of Popsickle (MARRIED) and Moose (MARRIED) although moose's status was mostly implied. You didn't come out and say he was single, but you certainly implied it.

I didn't say any of your facts about the incident were wrong, but if you have other facts that you wanted to present as right, but in fact had wrong, why should I believe the others are right. You discredited yourself by picking on the relationship between Popsickle and Moose. Why should anyone believe anything else you have to say? Next time learn to stick to the facts, not conjecture and you might get further.

But I doubt you can do that...

And you saw more than anyone else that was there?

Eyewitness accounts are notorious for being WRONG! I've watched Law and Order enough to know that :) And I'm pretty sure popsickle saw things that you didn't, and FUBAR probably did to, but can't remember.

Anyway, get over it. Let it go. There's nothing left here to talk about.

Gravity Man

chomp
04-16-2004, 11:55
It was a major turning point in my life...

Since the incident my wife and I have been sober and I am recieving treatment for my BiPolar Disorder.

I am glad to hear this, FUBAR, and I wish you continued success with your treatment. You are doing all you can to fix the problem. As for heading back to the trail, only time can work that out for you. Some people will be ready to forgive you, now that you have apoligize and sought treatment for your problem. Others will continue to hold resentment and fear you, especially those closer to what happened. Most will be somewhere in the middle.

Just keep going down the path that you are on now and most things will work themselves out. Just be patient and willing to show people that you have changed. I hope that you can find peace and return to the trail without fear of being assulted yourself, or of being completly ostracized.

Jack Tarlin
04-16-2004, 12:05
Wow. I was going to stay outta this one, but since so many others (who were not eye-witnesses, by the way) feel the need to coment, I'll add some words of my own.

No, I wasn't there, either. But I did arrive the very next day, and discussed the matter with something like ten people who were. Their version of events absolutely corroborated Mountain Dew's, especially in regard as to what took place, who did what to control the situation, who did little or nothing, etc. It is unfortunate that so many folks who have commented on this matter were NOT eyewitness or did NOT have the opportunity to discuss the matter first-hand with people who were actually present.

I hiked for weeks with Mountain Dew. He doesn't drink, take drugs, or behave irresponsibly. He's clear-headed, intelligent, and honest. There is no reason whatsoever to impugn or doubt his version of events, especially when they were corroborated by many eyewitnesses the next morning. People that impugn Dew's integrity and basic decency don't know him and don't know what they're talking about.

I also dis-agree with the posters who choose to criticize entire groups based on the behavior of one or two individuals. There aren't many folks who haven't said or done something on the Trail that they later came to regret; there are certainly NONE of us who haven't hiked with folks, even friends, who said or did something foolish at one time or another. To tar people forever, or to associate them forever with bad reputations because of the acts of a handful of people is unfair and wrong.

What people seem to have forgotten about this is that it was an extremely isolated incident, albeit an extremely regrettable one. A hiker did something foolish, wrong, and inexcusable, and he paid a price for it. Along the way, the reputation of hostel-keeper Joe Mitchell, a fine man, also suffered. And it seems that there are some who wish to criticize all members of this one group, even those whose primary connection with the incident was to end it, while others stood by and did nothing.

Lastly, as to those who are slamming Dew for resurrecting this dead incident, I suspect that the reason he's speaking out now is that this is the first time he's seen this entire thread, and up until now, he was unaware of what had been said by others. (He's also had other things to do since completing his trip, particularly being the caretaker for an ill relative---plain and simply, he hasn't been spending much time on Internet discussion boards over the past few months: If he HAD been aware of this thread, and some of the wrong and ill-informed things that have been said by folks who weren't there, and heard about the matter second or third-hand, I assure you he'd have commented earlier).

In any case, Dew, like anyone else, is entitled to his opinion. Those who are upset that the matter has been brought up again can refrain from the discussion, but Dew is certainly entitled, even at this late date, to give his side of the story.

Lastly, I agree wholeheartedly with those who've said that it's time to move on. This was a horrible occurence, but it was also an extremely rare one. Hikers have an obligation to try and keep their friends in line, and heading off problems BEFORE they occur. Hostel-keepers have an obligation to run a tighter ship and retain control of their establishments. We all have an obligation to keep open minds, to hear all different perspectives, to learn from incidents like this so they don't recur, to refrain from making harsh judgments about matters we know little about, or making similarly harsh judgments about folks we don't know.

I look forward to the end of this thread; likewise, I hope very much that discussions such as this one never take place again, because I very much hope this was a one-time incident that will hopefully never take place again.

Jack Tarlin
04-16-2004, 12:10
I did not see Fubar's letter before I wrote my post above; I think it appeared while I was still writing my post. Had I seen his comments, I'd have happily respected his wishes that this discussion be closed. I don't intend to comment further on this matter, and I hope others consider doing likewise.

gravityman
04-16-2004, 12:56
Jack, Re-read mountain dew's post. Wait, let me add in my comments :


First of all I want to say that I WAS THERE when all this happened. There are several topics I want to address here and can no longer bite my tongue on this old if not dead issue.

Sure thing. Talk about what happened at 4 pines, please.


First off.... I met Fubar on day two of my thru-hike because he had heard that Mountain Poohbear (my girlfriend) was having bad knee pains and couldn't make it to the next shelter. Fubar was already at this shelter that we had planned on going to that night, but upon hearing about us Fubar and Radio Shack walked two miles backwards down the trail to carry her pack for her the remaining two miles to the trail. I say again, this was the first time i had ever met the man. Many times along the A.T. did I see Fubar help out fellow hikers and on several occasions he gave his can stove away to others. The day before this terrible thing happened at 4 Pines he gave his latest stove away to two female hikers who had purchased bad fuel in the previous town. I had let them use my can stove and fuel the night before Fubar met them as well as gave them half of my fuel after Fubar gave them his stove. Keep in mind that these two women were NOT friends of ours. I am in noway trying to paint Fubar as an angel but, he's no devil either. Bipolar disorder and drinking mixed with the stupid decision to throw the two together spells trouble. Simple as that ! He was wrong and admitted it.


Okay, not really about 4 pines. Just say FUBAR isn't all bad. I'm sure he isn't. But this has nothing to do about THE INCIDENT... Sounds like Mountain Dew is just defending his crew for hanging with FUBAR. Well... anyway...





Second.......Our group that Moose refers to as the "rat pack" has never and did never refer to ourselves under that name. We often called ourselves "Dryland" or the "Mairnttt... Boys". That was just the beginning of Mooses fiction account of what happened. If we were so loud at the motel several days before and "so" many people had complained to the manager why did she never say a word to us. In fact she told us to have a good day as we left. As for the claim that we left beer cans laying around everywhere... Many of the hikers in our group including me and Carrot Slayer would often carry a zip lock bag to pack out trash from the trail that we would find. How many times did you do this Moose ? In fact I challenge you, Moose, to find anybody else on the trail that had a bad experience with us anywhere on the trail. You also mentioned that we "ENCOURAGED" Fubar's behavior. Please tell me in what way we did this ?

Again, nothing about the incident. Just blathering about how great his group was. I'm sure they weren't all that bad. He's really just defending his actions on the trail. Sounds like he has a bone to pick with Moose. Why? Maybe 'cause he didn't like what Moose had to say about the "Rat Pack" or whatever. Well, still nothing about the incident.



I'll have you know that it was Fubar's friends that held him down as you ran down the hill frightened for your life. You said that you were "trying to get sombody to tell you what had happened".... BS. I came around the corner of the garage as you were exiting your tent Moose. You made the best choice by running down the hill to check on Popsicle. You mention that the next morning Fubar's friends told you how terrible he was as well. BS once again. That never happened, but if you insist on sticking by your story maybe you could give the names of the hikers that said this to you ? Moose.......I think you are right to be mad at Fubar as we all were.?

Okay, finally something about what happened. But pretty minor corrections to Moose's story. However, as I read this FUBAR's friends were sticking up for FUBAR the next morning? But yet they were mad at FUBAR? Well, whatever, I don't get that part. Mostly it sounds more and more like Mountain Dew is pissed off that Moose made comments in his journal about "Brat pack" or whever, and now wants to get back at him.





You fail to mention that you were falling all over yourself to be with Popsicle, who was engaged when she was on the A.T. It looked like puppy love to me. The day that you two got to 4 Pines I had stopped at a bridge to get water when you two walked up. We all said hi to each other and talked for a moment when Popsicle said that she was going to go "find a restroom" and for you to go on. You insisted on staying put. It struck me as odd that she had a fiance and you had been taggin along with her for a huge section of the A.T. when you had told me that you started with a group of friends. Why would a guy leave his friends to hike with an engaged woman ? The thoughts left my thinking process at that time because I was having trouble with my pump.

Now this is just LAME! At this point I don't really see the point. He's just picking on Moose because Moose picked on his group. But as I see it, Moose has a much larger complaint (the attack by FUBAR) and critizing the whole group FUBAR hung out with and drank with really isn't a stretch if you ask me. But that's my opinion.

Also note that MD was just WRONG about Moose's supposed feelings for Popsicle. He's married, for gosh sakes. Mountain Dew is just being childish.



Third... Footnotes, you wouldn't have put Fubar OR any of his friends in the hospital that night I can assure you of that. Making personal threats to Fubar's friends, such as myself, when you were NOT there is very ignorant. I would have appreciated your help in restraining Fubar for 30 minutes on the wet grass like Bohdi and Greenman did untill the police got there though.

Yeah, I thought that footnotes comments were immature too. But MD's response is almost as immature. Basically sounds like he is threating him back "No, you wouldn't have punched me. I would have punched YOU!" The comment is a little open to interpretation, but that's how it sounds to me.


Atrain..... There were no nude calenders at 4 Pines when I was there and that is the first I've heard of it. I'm guessing that , if true, that would have been talked about by many people on many different A.T. website such as this one.

Atrain says it was. DM says it wasn't there when we was there. Then goes on to call A-train a liar based on that fact that there isn't more chatter about the poster? Hmmm....



Too many people run at the mouth without knowing of what they speak. Some, like Moose, were there and still can not get it straight or be 100% honest. Moose, your chest beating of what you "would have done" is an attempt to gain favor with an engaged woman. Shame on you. I don't doubt that you had concern for her as we all did. I prayed for Popsicles safety that night it happened and continued to for weeks afterward. It's a shame this whole thing happened....

This is once again totally lame for trying to draw some love connection that Moose had for popsicle. He has no way of knowing if it is true or not,and he is just "calling names" Totally weak.

So, how can you stick up for Mountain Dew Jack? I don't get it... Oh, right, because you met him and liked him. Well, he maybe he is a nice guy, but the posts on this site so far are VERY childish.

He would have served himselv best if he just said "Yeah, FUBAR screwed up. Moose has a right to be mad at him. Just don't condemn the rest of his friends because of his actions." and then pointed out the good stuff they had done. Not name calling at Moose.

Okay, that's about all I have to say. The only reason that I got in on this one was because of the assumption that Moose was chasing popsicle down the trail. That pissed me off, because he was just starting a rumor based on total guesses. Then it turns out they were both MARRIED. Well, looks like MD really stuck his foot in his mouth. It's hard to hear the good stuff with that foot in there...

Gravity Man

Gravity man

Frosty
04-16-2004, 13:19
Hello folks, Fubar here.
It was a major turning point in my life
Good luck to you. I know the path you're taking isn't easy, but the rewards are great. An accumulation of incidents in my own life came to a head unexpectedly and was a turning point for me. It'll be 15 years this May 12, and many tough times, but well, well, worth the work.

Good luck and God Bless.

Tom

hikerltwt
04-16-2004, 16:54
The story is true. I can assure you of this. Popsicle changed her trail name skipped ahead a good distance and I saw her in Maine at White house Landing. Over indulgence in alcohol leads to a lot of unplesant situations. Remember we are all representatives of the AT when in towns and such PLEASE BE A GOOD REPRESENTATIVE!

Chappy
04-16-2004, 16:55
[QUOTE=wacocelt].

The whole incident is my fault and as much as I would like to I can't change what happened, I can only continue to learn from and follow the path that it has sent me upon and make sure nothing like it ever happens again.
I wish you and yours the best in life. God bless, Be well.
FubarQUOTE]

Assuming responsibility is the way to complete healing. Take care and know many are praying for you and your wife. Be encouraged...you have faced and accepted your demon. Some will forgive, some won't...that's their problem, not yours!

Mountain Dew
04-17-2004, 02:19
Chomp.......I've heard many good things about you since I started my '03 thru-hike so I repsect your opinion. You didn't chime in with assumptions or made of facts like others have. The points you made have merit and I respect that. Baltimore Jack was right when he said that the actions of one can't be spread out over the entire group. Saying that.....I also understand your point that we are often judged by the actions of those we are assiciated with. I think it is wrong to do that, but nonetheless understand that is how many people think. Thanks for the approach you took in this forum.

Frosty.... I had two beers the entired length of the A.T. so for you to assume that I must have been drunk was incorrect. Oh and might I note that those two beers were trail magic and I couldn't resist because it was hot and there weren't any soda's in the coolers. hahahaaa I do however understand your mistake that i might have been drunk due to the picture painted of 4 Pines. In fact 99% of the hikers the night of the incident were in their bags and had the lights out shortly after 10 pm.

Gravityman.....Your entry's remind me of a TV or radio source, for lack of original inteligent thought,that takes a person's words and chops them to pieces in quotes in order to make them look bad.

Baltimore Jack was right when he said that I had no knowledge of this topic on this site. I first joined this site last year on my hike while in Erwin. Having that Moose had put his side of the story on site at trail journals I went and read the entry. I decided at that time that it wasn't right to refute that account of the story on his personal journal so I didn't. Had I heard about it being copied and pasted onto Whiteblaze I would have spoken up at that time. Maybe Mooses comments would have been best left on his journal. Having opinions is natural. Moose is intitled to his and me mine.

chomp
04-17-2004, 06:51
Saying that.....I also understand your point that we are often judged by the actions of those we are assiciated with. I think it is wrong to do that, but nonetheless understand that is how many people think.
Great post, Mountain Dew. I agree that judging people solely by who they happen to be hanging around with is wrong. However, I know that I tend to do it, and I suspect that most people tend to as well. That is until more information becomes available, at least. You hear about something like this, and you hear drinking was involved.. well, it is really easy to assume that the entire group was drunk and falling over itself.

FWIW - at this point I am glad that this thread was brought back up. I've learned some new things about that night and the people that were involved. I am glad that you told you side of the story, MD - my only comment would be that I wish you had done it in a less aggressive manner at the beginning. And as I said, I am glad to hear that Fubar is dealing with his problem. Also, I have great respect for Jack's opinion, so if he tells me that you are a good guy... well, then you're Ok in my book, too.

I imagine that this thread won't die just yet, I just hope that we can all be calm and rational in any future posts. It is an unfortunate thing that happened, but if there is even a chance that something like this could be prevented in the future because of this discussion, well then I think that this is a worthwhile thread. When you stop listening to other people and stop trying to understand other people's opinions, thats when you turn into John Ashcroft. Whoops! Hope that doesn't start another heated discussion.

Lone Wolf
04-17-2004, 07:14
Bush/Cheney 04

Jack Tarlin
04-17-2004, 09:00
Gee, Gravityman, instead of me re-reading Dew's post, why don't you re-read mine:

I have no further interest in pursuing this discussion; I hope others feel likewise. Period.

But since you asked me by name, I'm sticking up for Dew because I know him personally, I know him very well, and I know his character. More to the point, he was actually present at the events he's talking about, which makes him a more credible witness than most of the folks on this thread----including you, Gravityman. The most sensible line of your latest post said it all: "I just don't get it." True enough. You weren't there, you didn't discuss the matter with eyewitnesses immediately after it occured; your facts and information are third-hand. So how could you get it?

The only thing worse than folks talking about something that most folks would wish to forget is when the folks who are doing the sharpest talking simply don't know what they're talking about.

That being said, I have little interest in discussing this further, and I'm sure many folks feel the same. If you wish to further this dialogue and get the last word on this, be my guest, but I really have no inclination to pursue this. One could well ask why YOU feel the pressing need to do so, but in truth, I don't really care to know.

Skeemer
04-17-2004, 11:35
Geez Baltimore Jack, as much as I like and respect 90% of your opinions on the Trail, you aren't THE TRAIL GOD. I mean, this is an open forum and as much as you might hate it, participants can and will continue to comment past the point you decide it's time to end a thread. I think the readers (or at least most of them) are bright enough to know who was there and who wasn't. They can also weigh ALL the various comments and reach their own conclusions. So you had to be there to have an opinion or make a comment? Please do the readers a favor and list the rules for responding to a post so we know when we're allowed to respond.

I got the impression that MD resurrected this thread for the purpose of discrediting Moose (which I thought was wrong). Now, what I've heard about MD, he doesn't seem like such a bad sort...and I respect BJ's standing up for him.

Having said that, I commend FUBAR for his sincere remarks. It was very unfortunate and he sounds like he has his act together.

Jack Tarlin
04-17-2004, 13:53
Actually Skeemer, it wasn't me that first suggested ending this thread. It was several of the key participants (Moose, Fubar, etc.) who first put forth the idea that this issue belongs to the past, and maybe it's time to let it go there. So please retract your "Trail God" comment----I wasn't demanding that the thread end; it's not my place to make such comments. If you'd bothered reading my comments, what I clearly said was that I regretted pursuing the subject after several other folks had clearly suggested that it was time to move on, and gave good reasons for desiring this. I happened to concur with them. You evidently don't. So be it. But don't accuse me of dictating to people what they can and cannot say; that's not my style. But I may well make the suggestion that folks perhaps realize when a subject is played out, and move on to more worthwhile subjects. We evidently have different opinions over which subjects are worth our time and which aren't. So be it. And now, if the personal snipes are over, I'd really like to leave this one for good. If other folks want to keep hacking away at this and get the last word in, well have at it, I've more important things to do.

Moose2001
04-17-2004, 14:08
Whew…..this got really heated didn’t it. After reading all of the posts, I’d like to add a few “footnotes”. My intent is not to stir things up again but rather to “clarify” a few points.

Mountain Dew….first let me say, I never intended for my journal entry on the events at Four Pines to be posted to Whiteblaze or similar forums. I only posted that entry because of the concern from both Popsicle’s and my friends and family. The information that something had happened spread quickly and there were a lot of emails and phone calls going on. I wanted to post an account of what happened so that everyone knew that Popsicle was fine. Had I known someone was going to take that entry, post it here, and then start a firestorm over it, I may have not been quite so explicit and detailed in the post. Frankly, I think it’s wrong for others to copy someone’s personal journal and post it without their permission. I would ask all of you who post here to not pull journal entries from anyone without their permission.

Mountain Dew, I also respect one of your last statements here, “Having opinions is natural. Moose is entitled to his and me mine.” It’s obvious by your posts that your opinions and recollections of the events differs from mine. That’s fine. You’re entitled to your opinions also. My journal, in my opinion, is an accurate portrayal of the events that evening and what led up to it. There were only two eyewitnesses to that evening, Popsicle and FUBAR. By his own admission, FUBAR remembers none of what happened. Prior to posting my journal, I asked Popsicle to read it and make sure it was accurate. She asked me to change several things for clarification and I did. My intent was not to defame you or anyone else. In fact, that’s one reason why I didn’t use any names in the journal with the exception of Popsicle, FUBAR, and mine. If my account upset you, I apologize for that. It was not my intent. To the best of my recollection, I only met you several times. Each of those times I had only positive interactions with you. I also learned from your account that you were one of the people that restrained FUBAR that evening. Things were moving pretty fast that evening and I didn’t know for sure who participated in that. I’d like to thank you publicly for that effort.

To echo Chomp’s comments, “I am glad that you told you side of the story, MD - my only comment would be that I wish you had done it in a less aggressive manner at the beginning.” I have no problem with discussing what occurred that night. What I did have a problem with was what I viewed as a personal attack on my best friend and hiking partner. Accusing Popsicle of some kind of impropriety does nothing but victimize her yet again. In my opinion, you owe her an apology.

Chris – FUBAR. I’m heartened to hear you and Trip are doing well. What happened that evening was unfortunate. I’m glad you’ve taken steps to work out your problems. I hope you can stick with the program you’re on and make the changes you need. I think it would be very therapeutic if you could return to the AT for yet another trip. I believe everyone would welcome you back.

Finally….Baltimore Jack. I’ve seen you take others to task for dismissing a hiker’s feedback on negative events at hostels or trail towns. It amazes me that you would so blatantly dismiss my account without even attempting to find out what the truth is. Sure, you hiked with Mountain Dew and got to know him. But it’s pretty hard to know what the “facts” are without getting both sides of a story. As someone that many hikers listen to for advice, I think you need to make sure you have all the facts before you start making pronouncements. I find it ironic that you criticize others for their comments because “your facts and information are third-hand”. So is yours. Why don’t you make an effort to find out everything before you make your judgments? Then to try to curtail any further discussion after you’ve made your “pronouncement” is wrong and counter to what this forum and others is all about. I think you owe everyone an apology.

Jack Tarlin
04-17-2004, 18:29
Geez, I keep geting dragged back to this.

Moose: I arrived at 4 Pines the morning after the events in question. That day, and in the next few days, I personally discussed the matter with at least 10 eyewitnesses, or if they were not in fact eyewitnesses, they were in fact present at 4 Pines during this event. I also read your register entry and your description of the evening there immediately after it was written, as well as your somewhat fervid account of events on the Internet. Without nitpicking or re-hashing things, and I do not mean this unkindly, Moose, but the fact of the matter is that your version of events as reported by you at the time was markedly different from the accounts personally related to me by eyewitnesses. And many of these folks were NOT part of Fubar's group of friends and cronies, and were not therefore inclined to slant events in that group's favor. My information Moose, was NOT collected third hand as you've stated, and I'm sorry if you feel I owe anyone an apology for merely relating what was told to me by eyewitnesses. Unlike 95% of the folks who've discussed this matter over the past year, I was in fact able to get eyewitness accounts, in fact, quite a few of them. I acknowledge that other folks may recollect things differently. But to accuse me of getting and spreading third-hand or inaccurate information Moose, is simply untrue, and in accusing me of this, it's you who should perhaps apologise. But don't sweat it; I don't expect it, and I really could care less.

In closing, I will, however, retract my statement that the people principally involved with this unfortunate event have tried to move past it and get on with their lives. It is now evident that this is not necessarily the case.

I wouldn't even bother responding to this latest rash of personal comments, but unfortunately, on discussion groups of this sort, there are folks who view one's non-response as an admission of error or wrong-doing; in short, to let personal comments and attacks go unanswered, in effect, is to acknowledge there's some substance to them. So sometimes, even when one would really like to withdraw from a pointless discussion, it's not always easy.

To sum up, hopefully for the last time: My comments were not made out of ignorance; they were made after discussing the matter at length with any number of people. It appears that there are several people out there who feel that the opinions and comments of numerous eyewitnesses to the event are irrelevant, and can therefore be discounted. And finally, it appears that there are still folks who want to dwell on this unfortunate, and hopefully singularly rare incident. I suspect most of the folks here would rather discuss something else, and I'm looking forward to doing so. I'm more interested in planning where I'm going to be ten months from now rather than dwell morosely on something unpleasant that happened ten months ago. But I guess some folks would rather look backwards than forwards. To each their own.

Chappy
04-17-2004, 18:55
Bush/Cheney 04

Me, too. That's two votes. :)

Lugnut
04-18-2004, 00:11
I think we're going to need a boxing ring at Trail Days this year! :banana

Mountain Dew
04-18-2004, 05:39
Moose.......I agree that people shouldn't copy/paste your journal entry onto whiteblaze, but like I stated before....you sure didn't seem to care untill I spoke up. Need I mention the shelter logs we found in the log books made by you ? Did you not think any of us would see those ? It would have been easy to just contact the people who run whiteblaze and talk to them about removing your journal post. You wanted it to be a oneside story for reasons you will only know for sure.

You claim that there was only two eyewitnesses at 4 Pines. Nonsense ! Trip saw the entire thing. Me, Bohdi, Blue Bird, Greenman, and several others also saw a great deal of what happened. For that matter I saw way more than you did. I walked around the corner of the hostel as Popsicle was only about 10 feet away from Fubar.

And as for Baltimore Jack.....he talked to ATLEAST 10 people about what happened. Jack isn't somebody to run at the mouth. What purpose does it serve Jack to back up my statements ? He is a "tell it like it is" person and we have had our own disagreements before as well. If you or anybody else thinks that I am simply trying to make Fubar look good then remember that I said that I thought it only right that Popsicle took the actions that she did. You also claim that I implied that there was some sort of impropriety between you and Popsicle. That is wrong. I said that you had your eyes on her and clearly stated that.

I've read several comments about this topic. If you will read back to the original entry from Mooses journal that was copied onto whiteblaze everybody that was friends with Fubar was verbaly trashed in an aggressive manner. The fact that we weren't called out by name matters very little.

It seems that since you see your mistakes and apologized for a few of them to me ( but left out the rest of our group) you want others to apologize to once again cover your guilt.

Mountain Dew
04-18-2004, 05:41
Lugnut....a boxing ring ? hahahaaa no, just a lie detector and plenty of battery's !

prozac
04-18-2004, 09:02
Enough already. At this point this should be a private matter concerning Popsicle, Fubar & Trip. Let it go!!!

gravityman
04-19-2004, 10:28
Gravityman.....Your entry's remind me of a TV or radio source, for lack of original inteligent thought,that takes a person's words and chops them to pieces in quotes in order to make them look bad.


That's funny, because it was your entire first post that I quoted... Just sprinkled with my reactions. But whatever...

Gravity Man

PS I won't comment any more on this. BJ is largely right, in that I don't get what is going on. As far as I can tell, people keep saying "you don't have the full story" to everyone, even people who where there! It seems to me that everyone agrees on what happened that night to a large extent. The real disagreement seems to be about the perception of The Group. But then why is everyone so insistent that they are disagreeing about what happened that night? I don't know, so something else must be going on here...

Mountain Dew
04-19-2004, 23:50
gravity....Your lack of reading comprehension skills never ceases to amaze me. One entry after another you don't understand and yet feel compelled to add your two cents. AMAZING

gravityman--- "PS I won't comment any more on this. BJ is largely right, in that I don't get what is going on."
Atleast finally you understand that you have no clue what is going on.

Moose seems done with the issue as am I.